The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Eighth Circuit Rejects Missouri's Second Amendment Preservation Act
States cannot invalidate or refuse to recognize federal law.
Yesterday, a unanimous panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eighth Circuit rejected Missouri's attempt to nullify federal gun laws with which the state disagrees. Chief Judge Colloton wrote a remarkably brief opinion for the panel in U.S. v. Missouri, joined by Judges Loken and Kelly.
Here is the opinion's introduction:
Missouri's Second Amendment Preservation Act classifies various federal laws regulating firearms as "infringements on the people's right to keep and bear arms, as guaranteed by Amendment II of the Constitution of the United States and Article I, Section 23 of the Constitution of Missouri." The Act declares that these federal laws are "invalid to this state," "shall not be recognized by this state," and "shall be specifically rejected by this state."
The United States sued the State of Missouri, the governor, and the attorney general, alleging that the Act violates the Supremacy Clause of the Constitution of the United States. The district court denied Missouri's motions to dismiss for lack of standing and failure to state a claim, granted the motion of the United States for summary judgment, and enjoined implementation and enforcement of the Act. On this appeal by the State, we agree that the United States has standing to sue. Because the Act purports to invalidate federal law in violation of the Supremacy Clause, we affirm the judgment.
After concluding that the federal government has standing to sue to challenge the Missouri statute, Chief Judge Colloton addressed the merits.
The Supremacy Clause states that federal law is "the supreme Law of the Land, . . . any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding." U.S. Const. art. VI, cl. 2. "By this declaration, the states are prohibited from passing any acts which shall be repugnant to a law of the United States." McCulloch v. Maryland, 7 U.S. (4 Wheat.) 316, 361 (1819). The "Second Amendment Preservation Act" states that certain federal laws are "invalid to this state," Mo. Rev. Stat. § 1.430, but a State cannot invalidate federal law to itself. Missouri does not seriously contest these bedrock principles of our constitutional structure. The State instead advances two arguments.
First, the State argues that the United States cannot sue to enforce the Supremacy Clause because it lacks a cause of action. While there is no implied right of action under the Supremacy Clause, there is an equitable tradition of suits to enjoin unconstitutional actions by state actors. Armstrong v. Exceptional Child Ctr., Inc., 575 U.S. 320, 326-27 (2015). Based on that equitable tradition, the United States has sued in other cases to enjoin a state law's implementation and enforcement or for other appropriate relief. See, e.g., United States v. Washington, 596 U.S. 832, 837 (2022); United States v. Minnesota, 270 U.S. 181, 194 (1926); Sanitary Dist. of Chi. v. United States, 266 U.S. 405, 425-26 (1925). We see no reason why the United States cannot proceed similarly in this case.
Second, Missouri contends that the Act is constitutional because the State may constitutionally withdraw the authority of state officers to enforce federal law. The State argues that the reason why it withdrew its authority—i.e., because the State declared federal law invalid—is immaterial.
That Missouri may lawfully withhold its assistance from federal law enforcement, however, does not mean that the State may do so by purporting to invalidate federal law. In this context, as in others, the Constitution "is concerned with means as well as ends." Horne v. Dep't of Agric., 576 U.S. 350, 362 (2015). Missouri has the power to withhold state assistance, "but the means it uses to achieve its ends must be 'consist[ent] with the letter and spirit of the constitution.'" Id. (quoting McCulloch, 7 U.S. (4 Wheat.) at 421) (alteration in original). Missouri's assertion that federal laws regulating firearms are "invalid to this State" is inconsistent with both. If the State prefers as a matter of policy to discontinue assistance with the enforcement of valid federal firearms laws, then it may do so by other means that are lawful, and assume political accountability for that decision.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
Brevity, the soul of wit.
If only it was more widespread.
Mr. Bumble : "If only it was more widespread"
Starting with the character given that line: Polonius in Hamlet, Act 2, Scene 2. He praises brevity right before a longwinded speech that has his listeners squirming in frustration.
Are you trying to make a point?
Why not? People have been quoting Polonius since Shakespeare first penned the play, mostly unaware his threadbare moralisms are written decidedly tongue-in-cheek. It’s like folk nodding wisely to “kill all the lawyers”, not knowing that line is voiced by a loathsome thug.
Speaking of loathsome, did ya hear one of Trump’s judge appointees just ruled it’s unconstitutional to ban fully-automatic weapons? Granted, that ruling will last no longer than anything from (say) Aileen Cannon, but it still illustrates what a hopeless mess SCOTUS wrought with Bruen.
If Missouri disagrees with federal laws they could seced . . .
Never mind.
Wrong approach.
Declare a gun sanctuary state.
Scalia undermined the 2A with Heller. So if the 2A was still a federalism provision as it was drafted then Missouri could simply pass laws with the preface that it was for the state militia and then the federal government cannot tread on those laws. By distorting the 2A Scalia undermined the several state militias which are a foundation of federalism.
100%
yes Scalia undermined 2A in Heller. There is no question that 2A protects the individual right to keep and bear arms at all times (subject to limited situations - such as being a felon,) as evidenced by the vote in the senate during the ratification process when the senate voted down the proposal to limit 2a to times when serving in the militia. Note that vote complete undercuts the claim made by Stevens in his Heller dissent that the militia clause limits 2a to times when serving in the militia. Scalia did misinterpret the militia clause with the argument that it was one of the purposes of the RKBA. 2A protects two rights A) the right of the people to form militias for the common defense and B) the individual right.
no question!
all times (subject to limited...
Did you read the historical documents
Did you even know about the senate vote at time of adoption of the BOR to vote down the proposal to limit 2A to times when serving in the militia
of course you didnt -
If you had then you would understand why there is "no question"
Instead you happily display your ignorance.
"Did you read the historical documents" is so delightfully vague it truly captures political originalism.
Did you even know about Beatle's original drummer? Constitutional hipsterism doesn't cut it.
See, I'm not an originalist. Neither your outcome-oriented political tradition that doesn't actually care about the Founders, nor the more scholarly Baude type that does actual research, not just whatever fits the outcome they want.
I am primarily an institutionalist, so I look at what the Supreme Court says.
I am secondarily a synthesist, and take elements of whatever methods of constitutional interpretation seem are the most persuasive.
How often do you call people ignorant on a daily basis? Because I feel like at some point you should get an inkling.
Sacastro - I am calling you ignorant (intentionally ignorant) specifically because your response demonstrated that you are in fact ignorant of the historical documents that completely undercut your response.
Such as?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution
footnote 142
Where the senate voted down the proposal to limited 2A to the common defence.
Something the anti individual right activists ignore including Stevens who pretended to do a historical analysis of 2A. The actual ratification process is hard to ignore when doing historical research on the adoption of the bill of rights.
Here, read this: You might recognize the author.
The Founders' Second Amendment: Origins of the Right to Bear Arms
Perhaps you can find it in a local library. I'd loan you my copy if you lived anywhere near Greenville.
The fact of the matter really is that the historical sources are widely available, and stunningly one-sided. Sometimes history is like that.
Citing an advocate as though he were an objective analyst is indeed a great example of your fundamental issue distinguishing between is and ought.
It's not just opining. The. Book. Quotes. Historical. Documents. It usefully compiles a large number of them. You will find no comparable book on the other side of this debate, because the historical evidence actually IS totally one-sided. That happens sometimes.
So if you actually cared what the author of the 2nd amendment meant by it, you might want to read this book.
Since you don't, you only care about the meaning you want imposed on the 2nd amendment, you likely won't bother.
Read advocates. Don’t trust them uncritically. Certainly don’t take an advocacy source to mean that a Supreme Court decision is illegitimate.
Not that you did that. He just agrees with your priors so you’re trying to use him as an authority.
He does not work well as an authority, just structurally based on who he is and what he does.
Now, I’m a fan of countervailing sources, so I may make time to read that book.
Nah, I won’t. I just don’t care about gun stuff enough. I think I've got a book on the disutility of metrics next on my plate.
It's just you're such a mess on your arrogation of constitutional authority on guns you're really firming up my own position in contrast.
It's a compilation of contemporaneous sources, just the sort of thing you want to pretend isn't available, so of course you're not going to read it.
In order that you can continue pretending that the historical record is equivocal.
"It’s a compilation of contemporaneous sources" from an advocate should get your antennae up.
Do you think I'm saying historical sources are not available? I'm not, I'm saying they're not going to give a clear and unambiguous answer. Especially when you're not sure of how to scope what counts as analogous.
Summarizing Sarcastro - Actual historical evidence should be ignored.
They are careful to say things like "Do not assist feds except where required by law." So an opposite approach.
"but the means it uses to achieve its ends must be 'consist[ent] with the letter and spirit of the constitution.'"
So what is inconsistent about saying "shall not be infringed" means "shall not be infringed"; as opposed to "shall only be infringed when we want to"?
Text isn't interpreted literally.
Otherwise the President can jail the press because the first amendment only applies to "Congress"
1. We noticed.
2. Shirley you can do better than that. The President has no power to jail anyone except when Congress gives him power to do so under law.
Tell Lincoln that.
How wildly off topic.
Ow is that off topic from "The President has no power to jail anyone except when Congress gives him power to do so under law."? I just gave him an example of a President who did so anyway.
It's 160 years old, how does relitigating civil war authorities have any relevance to this matter?
It is actually, but later amendments override certain parts.
Otherwise the President can jail the press because the first amendment only applies to “Congress”
The President can only do what Congress allows. No statutory basis, no arrest.
Confusing "may" with "can", are we?
Ah, so you leftists just get to make up what words are really supposed to mean at any point in time? How can you be so stupid and survive?
“That Missouri may lawfully withhold its assistance from federal law enforcement, however, does not mean that the State may do so by purporting to invalidate federal law.”
This seems a bit much. Why quibble so over the terms the state uses in doing something it's constitutionally entitled to do?
Here’s the law: Second Amendment Preservation Act
At most the court should have enjoined enforcement of the portion of the law that made enforcement of unconstitutional gun laws by federal officers a class A misdemeanor., and maybe SOME, (But not all!) applications of the section permitting collecting damage against anyone attempting to enforce such laws. It’s not like the law lacks ALL constitutional application, so it's a big over-reach striking the whole thing down just because they don't like the terminology used.
They addressed your complaint in the decision. Not surprised you don't like the result, but there is an answer to your "why quibble" question right in the text: Horne.
There's also the real reason terminology matters: alerting Missouri voters that their elected leaders are engaged in stupid, doomed, ideological wastes of time instead of doing something useful.
You could make an argument for mentioning that in dicta. Striking down a law entirely because you don't think the state legislature is doing something useful? Screw that.
Parts of the law are clearly constitutional. Those parts should not have been struck down.
"States cannot invalidate or refuse to recognize federal law."
Go tell New York, California, Colorado, Connecticut, Illinois, Massachusetts, New Jersey, and New Mexico.
Please clarify.
So-called "sanctuary states".
New California Law Imposes Obligations on Employers During Immigration Worksite Enforcement
Literally mandates that private employers act to frustrate federal enforcement of immigration laws, or suffer penalties.
I'm not sure how requiring employers to demand warrants & sharing notices of I-9 inspections "literally mandates that private employers act to frustrate federal enforcement of immigration laws."
I can point you to the evidence, I can't think it through for you, too.
How does providing employees notice of impending I-9 inspections frustrate federal enforcement of immigration laws? Tis a mystery wrapped in an enigma.
There are reasons why this law makes sense, even if you haven't thought through it. Employers, for example, can use immigration enforcement as a threat in order to create labor conditions that would be illegal for anyone else. Warnings for I-9 inspections and requiring warrants protect employees regardless of their immigration status. The most the warning can do to "frustrate" federal enforcement is encourage the undocumented worker to leave the job they're holding illegally and avoid immediate arrest.
Yes, warning a criminal that the cops are coming is typically regarded as frustrating law enforcement, and illegally so.
For instance, if a few of the employees were dealing drugs out of the lunch room, and the employer warned them that the DEA was on the way over? You think there would be no legal liability for that?
PPP made it rain dollars in the ghetto!! And after getting free dollars the thugs weren’t happy and so they used those dollars to buy guns and drugs which led to a violent crime wave. Only in America can thugs get free dollars and use those dollars to commit crimes!!! Trump’s America!!!!
I'm not sure Brett ---
If he walked in and said "if any of you fuckheads are dealing drugs, I will fire you so make damn sure you don't" and walked out, exactly what could the DEA say?
He clearly has a right to tell his employees not to deal drugs, and if his employees are bright enough to read between the lines, well...
They were not mandated by state law to say that employees shouldn't be illegal aliens. They were mandated by state law to warn employees if the INS were on the way. As well as prohibited from cooperating with federal immigration laws unless compelled to by a warrant.
And this private employers, mind you, not government employees subject to doing as they're told as a condition of employment. The California law was as dismissive of federal immigration law as this is of federal gun laws.
But that's not what is being demanded. It's more along the lines of "the DEA is searching the building tomorrow and especially the employee lockers so if you need a box to carry some belongings let us know"
You're equating a hard-working immigrant, holding a job illegally, with drug dealers? Are those crimes equivalent in their impact on society?
Regardless, when a drug dealer is alerted, they evade arrest and are still a drug dealer. When someone holds a job illegally and is alerted, they become unemployed and the employer--who should be held accountable--doesn't avoid repercussions. So no, the audit alerts don't frustrate the goal of enforcement labor laws and legal employment.
Spose you are Mrs Tomkins (nee Lindstrom) and your job is to tap out arrest warrants on your computer when instructed to do so by your superiors. You notice one for Arnold Lindstrom who happens to be your brother. So you call him up and let him know. He makes off sharpish and the cops fail to arrest him. How do you stand legally ?
I mean I can see you might get fired, but other than that do you have any jeopardy, criminally or civilly ?
Wasn't there a judge a few years back who got into a little bit of trouble for slyly letting illegals out of the back door of her court while the Feds were coming in the front door ?
You may not know this, but: It's EMPLOYERS that are required to maintain I-9s and produce them for inspection by ICE.
Your whining aside, do you at least accept that the Supremacy Clause means what it says?
Sure, and getting the Supreme court to concede that would be a great step forward.
The Supremacy clause, on its own terms, only applies to laws adopted pursuant to the Constitution. Federal policy? Unless embodied in statutory law, the clause should not apply. States are constitutionally entitled to oppose federal policy.
You must have missed this:
Missouri's Second Amendment Preservation Act classifies various federal laws
Not policies, laws. Or do you need a dictionary?
No, I didn't miss that. I was simply pointing out that, if the Supreme court accepted that the Supremacy clause means what it says, their supremacy clause jurisprudence would look rather different.
Can you give an example?
Sure.
Arizona v United States
Here we have the Court striking down provisions of a state law which did not actually conflict with any federal law. Instead, it actually aligned with federal law!
For instance, Section 3 literally just made violating a federal immigration statute into a state level misdemeanor. This was struck down as conflicting with a federal policy, not law, of failing to enforce that federal law.
Thus elevating the supremacy of federal "policy" over the federal "law" the clause actually expressly made supreme.
The Court did the same thing with Section 5 of the law, admitting that it didn't actually contradict anything in federal law, but interfered with the federal policy of not enforcing the law.
If the Court were actually applying the Supremacy clause as written, it would have been Arizona, not the federal government, citing the clause to defend it's actions!
Following BrettLaw will get you in the same trouble as any sovereign citizen nonsense.
That's why Brett just pretends on the Internet.
Pretends what?
Pretends your strongly believed ought is what the law is.
I mean, I presume you follow the gun laws that are, not the gun laws you insist are actually the Real Law.
I'm just pointing out what the words of the clause literally say, pointing out that the Court is not actually treating the clause as meaning what it says.
It's the same general switcheroo that the Court pulled in Kelo, taking an amendment that said "public use", and substituting "public purpose".
You can defend the Court doing this sort of thing, if you like, but they're absolutely doing it. The Constitution is publicly available, it's right out there for people to read, and notice when the Court pulls this sort of stunt.
What the clause literally says is ambiguous. Otherwise there would be no need for any Supreme Court cases, including Bruen.
That you think one decision you don't like is just like another decision you don't like is neither interesting nor illuminating.
The Court is absolutely disagreeing with you.
Absolutely they are doing that.
As to what else they are doing, that requires more dialogue and in depth thinking than your uncritical hot take 'The Real Constitution is what Brett finds obvious and all the rest are liars' allows for you.
EVERY word in the Constitution becomes "ambiguous" when the Court doesn't like that word. You wouldn't think a word like "all" was ambiguous, but the Court found it utterly indecipherable in the 6th amendment.
Not every word, but many of them, yeah.
The English language is bad at precision to begin with, and the Constitution is not written as a contract but as a framework.
That you find some stuff isn't ambiguous is a tell you're letting your priors take the wheel.
For Section 3, the Court interprted federal statutes such that Congress intended that alien reigstration is a “single integrated and all-embracing system” that “did not allow the States to curtail or complement federal law or to enforce additional or auxiliary regulations. That is, the statute established federal policy and the statute preempts state law to the contrary.
Ditto for Section 5: “IRCA’s framework reflects a considered judgment that making criminals out of aliens engaged in unauthorized work […] would be inconsistent with federal policy and objectives.”
Selective formalism.
Functionally who cares if a state says it’s opinion on the Constitution is superior if it’s not taking concrete action?
But formally the difference between statutes and rules passed under the authority of statutes is very important.
Are you so blind to your outcomes oriented choice of standards?
Are you so determined to disagree with me that you don't notice you just reiterated my point? The Supremacy clause says it applies to laws enacted pursuant to the Constitution, and as you say, the difference between statutes, "laws", and rules passed under their authority is very important.
To establish that a law is subject to the Supremacy clause, you need to establish that it is properly pursuant to the Constitution.
This implies that in any Supremacy clause case a state should have standing to challenge whether the law is actually pursuant to the Constitution, since the Supremacy clause doesn't apply to unconstitutional laws, and invoking it directly impacts state sovereignty.
By the same principle, if you're invoking it in the case of a regulation, that regulation has to both be properly grounded in a statute, which itself has to be constitutional. Again, standing to challenge both of these.
Instead the courts basically blow off any questions about the constitutionality of statutes, or the legality of regulations, when applying the Supremacy clause. It even gets invoked where the policy is to NOT enforce the law!
Sarcastr0 is paraphrasing your position to try to make it sound stupid, not agreeing with you.
"paraphrasing" is being quite generous.
Also often known as making a straw man, although in this case he didn’t really bother arguing against it.
Brett as much as admitted I had him dead to rights.
Dead to rights in that I notice there's a difference between "law" and "policy", and that it's legally relevant? Sure, but why would I be upset about being had dead to rights about something that basic?
That you do a two step between super formal magic words matter, and utterly functional 'who cares if they say their reasoning supersedes the federal government' thinking.
Your baseline utterly inconsistent in all but aligning with the outcome you seek.
Yes, it means *constitutional* laws are Supreme. Unconstitutional laws are not, and hence states can use their power they have reserved under the 10th Amendment to invalidate them.
The writers of the Constitutional literally wrote about this in the early 1800's.
For as little as this effort is worth, which is slightly less than all similar efforts before it, a “sanctuary city” means ONLY “our people will not be enforcing federal immigration law.”
It DOES NOT mean the state insists federal immigration law is invalid.
It DOES NOT establish a state’s own immigration law or affect federal enforcement of immigration law beyond the lack of state help in enforcing it.
It ONLY says “we are not using state resources to enforce federal immigration law.”
If Missouri had declared themselves a 2A Sanctuary where state resources would not be used to enforce federal gun laws, Missouri would be fine. Instead, they decided to declare federal law invalid and got slapped silly in exactly the manner they should be.
I now return you back to your boundless and bottomless well of ignorance and foolishness.
It means quite a bit more than that in California, where it is literally illegal for an employer to allow the INS entry to their workplace without a warrant being produced, for instance. Mandating that private citizens not voluntarily cooperate with federal law enforcement goes WAY beyond saying "We are not using state resources to enforce federal immigration law."
I thought the relief granted was too broad and a declaratory judgment would have sufficed. Missouri should be free to withhold support for enforcement of federal gun laws based solely on the mistaken belief that federal law is wrong and state law is right. To the extent the District Court order binds state courts, it violates Whole Woman's Health v. Jackson.
Didya read the section that begins "We conclude that the law is not severable because the entire Act is founded on the invalidity of federal law."
That's a shitty basis for declaring a whole law unseverable.
And back to functionalism again.
Obviously I disagreed with that assessment.
There is a substantial constitutional part of the law, federal courts should avoid giving instructions to state officials on what state law requires, and the federal government can not forcibly enlist the assistance of the state. And if the goal of severability is to try to read the minds of past lawmakers, they might have passed the remaining part on its own.
Or maybe the brilliant minds that drafted the statute could have spent a little time at least trying to come up with a severable-friendly language?
It WAS severability friendly, the court was simply determined to strike the whole thing down regardless.
I don't think it was, but I guess the state can put your argument in its appeal and see if it flies. I doubt that it will.
Remarkably brief because the law and the State were remarkably stupid.
"States cannot invalidate or refuse to recognize federal law. "
Cool story, now do illegal immigration, or fed drug laws.
States cannot invalidate or refuse to recognize immigration or federal drug laws. They are not, of course, required to enforce those laws, or federal gun laws.
My state has medical and recreational marijuana. So do many. The feds run scared from enforcement as they see the voters changing their mind.
Which is, of course, what gaining power kneels to. "We've made it legal. You still say it's illegal. Jump, froggy."
David...A state licensing weed dispensaries to sell and distribute weed to the adult population of that state....doesn't that come close to the line (invalidation, refuse to recognize), meaning a violation of federal drug laws? I have wondered about that.
Weed laws, like other laws, follow public opinion slowly. We’re watching these laws change one state at a time. The federal government is already adjusting its approach to match.
The Justice Department today announced that the Attorney General has submitted to the Federal Register a notice of proposed rulemaking initiating a formal rulemaking process to consider moving marijuana from a schedule I to schedule III drug under the Controlled Substances Act (CSA).
States have not "invalidated" immigration or fed drug laws. In the case of marijuana, the states have decriminalized it as a matter of State law, not federal law. The Federal government can come in at any time and prosecute those that sell or possess marijuana--and the states cannot stop them from doing so.
The main difference is drug & illegal alien laws are not part of the bill of rights. MO position is they feel the gun laws they do not recognize are in violation of the 2nd Amendment.
So nobody has standing to sue when the feds pass a bad law unless they meet all sorts of procedural and factual thresholds but the feds get standing on a mere assertion of conflict. The double-standard in standing thresholds is disturbing.
Supremacy has its privileges.
It’s federal law and the federal constitution that have supremacy, not the Executive Branch. And yet they seem to get standing free standing.
The proper time for this ruling is when an actual case is brought and Missouri attempts to apply its law in preference to a federal one.
The states should then have standing to challenge the claimed supremacy.
I think that that there is a general welfare spending federal action hole in current standing.
But here…what part of standing do you think isn’t met here?
The only one I could think of is injury, but the opinion addresses that.
100% wrong. That's watcha get for thinkin'
Injury is indeed missing and the opinion merely hand-waves at it. Far stronger arguments are routinely rejected when it's anyone except the feds trying to overcome standing.
This seems like the kind of situation where litigation was redundant. This law was so wildly unconstitutional that anyone looking to rely on it should know that it was a legal nullity without a specific court case telling them so.
That said, the standing issue fascinates me. Is it just me or does this illustrate that the Federal government and the states are not in a symmetrical position. If the states do something that violates federal law, the feds can basically sue without having to show any further injury, but if the federal government does something it’s not allowed to do the state has to show a specific injury beyond “this reduces the scope for our ability to make our own laws” or “this has the effect of invalidating a law we already made”.
If the Federal government made a law legalising abortion, court the states sue simply on the basis that this law purported to legalise something that they’d forbidden?
Large parts of the law, most of it, in fact, are actually clearly constitutional: A state is perfectly entitled to direct its own officers to do nothing to further enforcement of a federal law, and to even legally sanction them if they do.
No, it's not just you. The fundamental source of the asymmetry is that the federal judiciary are chosen entirely at the federal level, and if "no man should be the judge in his own case", neither should he get to nominate and confirm the judge in his own case.
The federal judiciary are insanely deferential to the people who staff the federal judiciary, shockingly.
The source of the asymmetry is the supremacy clause and the upshot of the Civil War!
Your men not laws take is sour grapes via your usual inability to understand humans acting like professionals.
This law is overdramatic posturing. It is your 2A takes turned to law. No wonder you love it and will make up whatever facts you gotta to defend it.
The Supremacy Clause does not explain why the Federal government had standing here. And the flipside of the Supremacy Clause is the 10th amendment.
The source of the asymmetry, contrary to Sarcastr0, is simply that the federal judiciary is chosen by officers of the federal government, and since the 1930's the primary criterion for selecting federal judges and justices has been deference to the executive and legislative branches of the federal government.
FDR broke the Supreme court to his will, and subsequent Presidents and Senates have taken care to keep it broken. Prior to FDR the asymmetry was much less pronounced.
Again, you presume something about people you do not know, to get to yet another institution that would agree with you, but for unfair and bad faith shenanigans that you have utterly pulled from your ass.
Any scintilla of proof that "since the 1930’s the primary criterion for selecting federal judges and justices has been deference to the executive and legislative branches" or just that judges don't agree with you so it's gotta be something else going on than that your views are fringey and wrong.
You haven't typically demonstrated any awareness of historical events that took place during your lifetime, your grasp of history prior to your birth is negligible.
FDR had a clash with the Court that ended with the Court broken to his will, even if he didn't get a chance to actually pack the court; They caved and became a rubber stamp for the new deal, particularly after he'd had the time to select almost all of the Court's members. That's standard history, you probably heard it yourself in HS if you didn't spend that day in history class asleep.
Nobody forgot that lesson: Ever since, Justices have been chosen who will not enforce constitutional limits on federal power, which is why the vast expansion of federal power during and after FDR's administration was upheld.
Yes, of course. Is this news to anyone who did not sleep through the years 1776 - 2024?
It actually is entirely constitutional. Court got it extremely wrong.
No, I think the part making it a misdemeanor for federal officials to enforce these federal laws probably does run afoul of the Supremacy clause.
“If the Federal government made a law legalising abortion, court the states sue simply on the basis that this law legalised something that they’d forbidden?” Nope.
PS. We prefer “legalizing” in ‘Merica, we like our z's. And it's "zee," not "zed."
I'd have gone with "LOL. No."
The "Second Amendment Preservation Act" states that certain federal laws are "invalid to this state," Mo. Rev. Stat. § 1.430, but a State cannot invalidate federal law to itself.
How about all the States that have legalized marijuana despite the Controlled Substances Act expressly prohibiting it?
I know, right?! It's like no one in those states who voted in majorities to legalize marijuana are interested in suing. And the politicians in the federal government seem more interested in their munchies than going after widely popular state laws. So much so that the feds are even looking to downgrade weed to a schedule 3 drug.
Remember when Clinton didn't inhale but W snorted and Trump, well, he's probably never been sober since he was a teen.
How about it?
It's unprincipled for the Feds to selectively sue over these issues.
Hahahahahahaha. Lol.
I'm sure liberal judges would uphold a blue state nullifying a federal abortion law.
Because to liberals, guns are bad, but killing babies and shooting big loads into other men's asses is good.
Maybe, but only by finding the federal abortion law unconstitutional, which it probably would be.
We already have the federal partial-birth abortion ban (it's not unconsitutional). A blue state that nullified it would be knocked down by the courts.
Thread hi-jack:
Jack Smith has filed a superseding indictment in the DC Circuit court against Donald Trump.
https://pjmedia.com/paula-bolyard/2024/08/27/breaking-jack-smith-brings-new-indictment-against-trump-n4932029
Would someone please check on ng in case he has an erection lasting more than 4 hours as a result.
Count 1: "People I don't like aren't entitled to legal representation, their lawyers are just "co-conspirators"."
The principle here would appear to be that, once a client's lawyer has told him something the prosecutor agrees with, the fact that another lawyer has told him something different just demonstrates that they're co-conspirators in violating the first lawyer's opinion. Because there's no way the client could have believed the second lawyer!
Frankly, any time you act on a lawyer's advice, any legal liability should be on them, not you. They're the one in the room who's supposed to know the law, not you.
Sorry Brett, the "get an attorney to tell you it's legal and then you can't be prosecuted" get-out-of-jail-free card was discontinued long ago.
Having legal theories and testing them in a court used to not be illegal, no matter how good or bad they were.
Not so anymore.
Lie much, Jesus? Yes, would be the answer to that question, if it weren’t rhetorical.
Do Traythug supporters even know the facts of the case? I don't think they do. What it boils down to is that Traythug felt "dissed" by some "creepy ass crackuh" following him at night, and he wanted to show his "girlfriend" (really, his future baby momma) that he wouldn't let said diss go unpunished! He violently attacked Zimmerman, and George Zimmerman shot the piece of crap through the heart. End of story.
You have it backwards—Trayvon was like Rittenhouse in that he was defending himself from a creepy adult that he believed wanted to rape him. Thankfully Rittenhouse was armed but in Trayvon’s case he wasn’t armed and so he couldn’t defend himself from the creepy adult.
Funny. An accurate interpretation of the Second Amendment would invalidate any Federal Law that restricts a citizen's ability to own a firearm. Missouri's law does not go against the Second Amendment.
And, in fact, the state law isn't subject to a Supremacy clause problem, because the Supremacy clause explicitly says, "This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; ..."
And laws violating the Constitution are not made in pursuance thereof. You can't genuinely evaluate a Supremacy clause assertion by the federal government without evaluating the constitutionality of the law in question.
Which would seem to me should guarantee a state standing to challenge any law where the supremacy clause is invoked.
Any law? Like the one that prohibits prisoners from having them while they're in prison?
Of course. Show me where it says in the 2nd amendment that prisoners can't have guns!
Where does it say in the Constitution that prisoners can be locked up?
It says so twice: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Due_Process_Clause
Yes, this was discussed above. Scalia jettisoned the last vestiges of that plain and rather obvious interpretation of the Second Amendment in Heller in favor of saying "It's really all about the right to personal, armed self-defense even though it says something else entirely."
By the time the 14th Amendment was ratified, there was some understanding that the 2A protected a right to self-defense. Scalia's opinion on the history of the 2A etc. still leaves something to be desired.
Heller argues the 2A was an individual right at inception unlike the other amendments in the BoR…so why did it need to be incorporated with McDonald?? So prior to McDonald which individuals were protected by the 2A?? Obviously Heller was because he lived in DC which is a federal territory. But that means an individual living in Virginia was not protected by the 2A prior to McDonald. Isn’t that strange to craft the 2A whose text encompasses everyone (unorganized militia) living in the “free state” of America…but it only applies to individuals living in federal territories?!? Such a head scratcher. 😉
unlike the other amendments
I'm not sure what this means. It argued that it was a "pre-existing" right but that applied to speech & religious liberty too.
The Bill of Rights (see Barron v. Baltimore/1833) only applies to the federal government. The passage of the 14A "incorporated" its provisions (or most of them, according to current law) and applied them to the states.
Individuals in Virginia were protected -- if the federal government wrongly interfered with Virginia's authority in that context, which would harm the people of Virginia, the Second Amendment would matter.
The reach of the 2A to federal territories is an interesting question. Dred Scott assumed the Bill of Rights applied there. OTOH, the Supreme Court for a time had a limited view of how much BOR applied to overseas territories.
*unincorporated overseas territories. (I.e. places where brown people live.)
So you don’t believe McDonald was necessary?? Because you still have an individual right that can be infringed by state governments.
So you don’t believe McDonald was necessary?? Because you still have an individual right that can be infringed by state governments.
I did not say McDonald was not necessary.
I said that even without McDonald that the 2A gave the people of Virginia some degree of protection.
Granting Heller, McDonald logically follows.
A right that can be infringed is not a right.
Your inability to understand English and ignorance of how the militia works do not mean “it says something else entirely”.
Nobody on the Court except perhaps Thomas was prepared to actually uphold the 2nd amendment, at the time of Heller. The real argument was between the 'liberal' faction that wanted it rendered totally moot, and the 'conservative' faction that were content to just partly neuter it, by transforming the right to 'every terrible instrument of the soldier' into a right to 'every non-frightening instrument of the Fudd'.
Brett, the 2A is not 'Instantiate BrettLaw's version of gun rights.' People, even judges, can disagree with you in good faith.
How is it you function in the real world and yet are you so utterly unable to deal with dissent from your personal take?
Sarcastr0, take a look at the Miller decision: The NFA was upheld in regards to short barrelled shotguns on the basis that nobody had demonstrated to the Court that such guns were militarily useful. (And, of course nobody had; It was a trial in abstensia; Miller vanished after the lower court freed him, and was dead by the time the Supreme court ruled.)
Not that Layton and Miller's position of one was useful to the military, mind you: That the firearm itself had military utility.
That was the Court's take on it, not mine.
I can also point to statements by the Founding Fathers, during the Bill of Rights' ratification debate, demonstrating what the 2nd amendment meant.
The historical record as to the meaning of the 2nd amendment was utterly one-sided until the early 20th century, when it became an obstacle to federal gun control, and needed to be explained away.
I won't read Miller again, because past decisions invalidating current decisions is not how the law works.
You can play originalist all you want. The Court does the same thing. In the end, they have greater expertise and authority, and your unearned confidence does not really matter.
Your frustration points to the fundamental flaw with Bruen, and with Gorsuch's first principles take on rights jurisprudence - it pretends clarity but is actually much less clear than precedents. Makes the Court look arbitrary. Because it is. But no less arbitrary than you, of course.
Yes, I know that past decisions don't invalidate later ones. They can, however, demonstrate that a Justice, Scalia in this case, has misrepresented the prior decision.
Bruen really was quite clear. It's just that most of the majority on the Court weren't willing to actually apply it when the going got tough.
OK, so lets assume you're right and Scalia is wrong.
Assuming a later court decision rests on an incorrect interpretation of a past precedent, does that invalidate the later decision?
No! Because the law is a human, institutional project, not some smooth logical edifice. You can call a decision wrong, and badly reasoned *but it is still the law of the land*.
Bruen really was quite clear Yeah, no one ever debates US history and tradition.
YOU find a lot of things clear because you think you're like the last honest man. Actually, truth is hard. History is not clear. The universe is not clear.
The law requires expertise and thought, and what any single person thinks it ought to be rarely aligns with what it is.
No, I didn't say that Miller invalidated Heller. Obviously not, that would be stupid. I'm saying that Scalia was dishonest in Heller, which is a completely different thing, and that his misrepresentation of Miller was an element of that.
Not as dishonest as Stevens, of course, but still dishonest.
Bruen was written by Thomas, and Thomas thinks the Court failed to apply it in Rahimi. So, you're going to say that not only am I wrong about the meaning of the Bruen opinion, but so is its author?
Isn't that kind of arrogant, saying that the author of the opinion didn't know what it meant?
Everyone is dishonest but you and Thomas.
Yeah, you are arrogant enough to claim that the author of a Supreme court opinion was wrong about what his own opinion actually meant.
Yes, Brett.
Supreme Court opinions are the opinion *of the Court* not of the single author.
They all signed on based on what they thought it meant. Thomas was not some super authority just cause he had the pen.
You're inventing new and weird jurisprudence to get you where you want to go.
It. Had. A. Single. Author.
Sure, 5 other justices signed onto the opinion, but one justice wrote it, and you're arrogant enough to claim he was wrong about the meaning of what he wrote.
This, folks, is what invincible ignorance looks like. No evidence whatsoever matters even the slightest bit to Sarcastr0 on this topic. He's perfectly comfortable telling the author of a legal opinion that he's wrong about what his opinion actually means. And he doesn't need to actually LOOK at any historical sources to know for sure that they're conflicted about the meaning of the 2nd amendment, either.
https://www.cnn.com/2024/08/27/business/mark-zuckerberg-meta-biden-censor-covid-2021/index.html
The Democrats are criminal thugs. They belong in concentration camps.
France is a preview of what the Democrats are going to do in America in a few months if they can't steal the election again.
Hopefully, Hiroshima is a preview of what the left's sodomite cities will look like when God gets through with them.
Do you think God will start in DC? *fingers-crossed*
Let's see, I make it almost exactly 200 years since South Carolina sought to nullify tariff acts which it saw as prejudicial to the interests of the largely agrarian slave-states of the south. It was a constitutional Crisis that had a direct bearing on the Civil War to come. South Carolina passed an Ordinance of Nullification that was remarkably similar to Missouri's 2nd Amendment challenge. Apparently, the south thought that President Andrew Jackson, a southerner, would side with the south and decline to enforce the Tariff Acts of 1828 and 1832. He didn't.
So naturally South Carolina began to lock and load to fend off Federal enforcement of the Tariffs. Congress, with a narrow Jacksonian majority, countered with the Force Act of 1833 that authorized Jackson to use Federal troops to enforce the tariff rules in South Carolina. Both sides backed down and claimed victory (natch) in the compromise Tariff of 1833. I'm not certain, but it's possible that everyone involved in the Crisis realized that all sides could play that game, with this state or that seeking to nullify laws it didn't like, and with the outcome depending on who's ox was being gored.
Since then federal courts, including the SCOTUS, have consistently invalidated states' attempts to nullify Federal laws as violations of the Supremacy Clause. If states have issues with Federal law, they are cordially invited to seek relief in Congress, like everybody else. I suppose a red state like Missouri could understandably opt for civil disobedience, nonviolent or otherwise, with AR-15's at the ready and Gadsden flags unfurled and rippling proudly, and wait for the President to send in the troops and tanks.
This might impress some people, perhaps in the antebellum south, if we could send Missouri's documents back in time. But after all, issues of states' rights and the south's demand that the Fugitive Slave Act (which it liked) be enforced throughout the north by the Federal government, were important precursors of the Civil War. I'm sure that lots of Missouri families still have family bibles in which Civil War deaths are carefully recorded, even if these sons and fathers were blown to bits such that the whereabouts of the graves are forever unknown. I know that some people would welcome CW II, but really they should look up the wounds caused by Minie balls, and should have someone shoot them in the belly with no opiates or chloroform available. They might think again.
But we have those things now… it’s 2024. Didn't you know that?
In this case, at least part of the law was clearly constitutional, in as much as it just directed state officers to not assist in enforcing federal laws, something the state is entirely entitled to do.
The court could have just struck down the bit about it being a misdemeanor for federal officers to attempt to enforce unconstitutional laws in our state, and left it at that. WHY the state tells its people not to enforce a federal law is entirely irrelevant to the state's right to tell them to not enforce it.
Well ... except the law largely enforces the constitution -- the highest law of the land.
Democrats have always hated the limits of the constitution -- the song remains the same.
" federal law is "the supreme Law of the Land, . . . any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding."
Federal law supersedes the US Constitution?
Am I missing something here?
A state statute does not have the power to declare a federal law in violation of the US Consitution, and therefore invalid in that state.
As usual, yes.
any Thing in the [Constitution or Laws] [of any State] to the Contrary notwithstanding
not
any Thing in the [Constitution] or [Laws of any State] to the Contrary notwithstanding
Given someone’s near obsession with keeping track of things and providing updates quickly, somewhat surprised there was no dismissive post on the new superseding indictment yet.
Do you need an explanation of "unconstitutional thug attempts to rescue his unconstitutional case in a kangaroo-court venue" that badly?
I find myself skeptical of this ruling. Legislatures are free to decorate their statute books with whatever art they care to, and it’s no business of the courts unless someone in the executive branch of state government uses the decoration to meaningfully harm the plaintiff. It just doesn’t matter how bad the art is.
I don’t think the judge found any basis for standing except that he thinks the art bad. The opinion says that the declaration that certain federal laws violate the Constitution itself harms the federal government.
Consider Bob Marley’s famous song “I shot the sherriff.” Bob Marley declares that he shot the sherriff. Could the sheriff sue Bob Marley to enjoin the song on grounds the song harms the sherriff? It seems to me that the actual harm caused the sherriff by Bob Marley’s song is exactly the same harm as the harm done the United States by the Missouri legislature’s declarative art.
There is a reason for requiring standing in cases like this.
MORE: Some think the earth is round; others think it flat. It is a matter capable of question. But if it is flat, will the King’s command make it round? And if it is round, will the King’s command flatten it?
The United States does not have the absolute power of Henry VIII. Henry VIII’s tyrrany towards those objecting to the ecclesiastical Supremacy was a key motive for much of the federal constitution, including the limitations on the jurisdiction and power of the federal courts.
Federal courts have no power under our Constitution to enjoin a mere declaration they think inconsistent with the federal Supremacy. Mere declarations do not harm the national government, and provide no basis for standing..
That is, the United States simply isn’t affronted by mere declarations regarding its supremacy the way Henry VIII was affronted by even silence regarding his. At least, not affronted in a way federal courts, under our Constitution, have power to act on.
"Any official, agent, or employee of the United States government who enforces or attempts to enforce any of the infringements on the right to keep and bear arms included in subsection 3 of this section is guilty of a class A misdemeanor," doesn't sound like a declaration to me.
It sounds, reads, and was decided to be criminal law.
Reference is made to Printz v.U.S.
The opinion granted state judges can have certain duties to execute federal law that other state officials do not.
The law here is general in scope & applies to judges too.
It also has this provision:
Any official, agent, or employee of the United States government who enforces or attempts to enforce any of the infringements on the right to keep and bear arms included in subsection 3 of this section is guilty of a class A misdemeanor.
Yes, I'll gladly concede that that particular provision violated the Supremacy clause.
Also from the decision:
"Missouri moved to dismiss. First, the State asserted that the United States lacked standing to sue Missouri because the law is enforced by private citizens rather than state actors."
Seems like a good (i.e., BAD) way for MO private citizens being shot by Feds if they (citizens) tried to stop a Fed agent from doing their job.
You mean like Waco and Ruby Ridge among many?
No not like those places because the suspected criminals in Waco and Ruby Ridge were not acting under authority of a state law like Missouri's.
"There is an equitable tradition of suits to enjoin unconstitutional actions by state actors."
Then why can't anybody sue in equity to enjoin unconstitutional state actors? Why does this only permit the federal government to bring such suits?