The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
En Banc Fifth Circuit Rules for Texas in Water Buoy Case, but Doesn't Resolve Issue of Whether Illegal Migration Qualifies as "Invasion"
The invasion argument is still being litigated in another case.

Yesterday, in United States v. Abbott, the en banc US Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit ruled in favor of Texas in a case where the federal government is suing the state for installing floating buoy barriers in the Rio Grande River to block migration and drug smuggling, thereby creating safety hazards and possibly impeding navigation. The Biden Administration claimed this violates the Rivers and Harbors Act of 1899.
Texas argues the federal government incorrectly interpreted the statute, but also asserts that one of the "invasion" clauses of the Constitution gives it the power to install the buoys even if federal law forbids it. Article I, Section 10, Clause 3 of the Constitution states that "[n]o state shall, without the Consent of Congress, . . . engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay." Texas claims illegal migration and drug smuggling qualify as "invasion," and therefore the Constitution gives the state the power to take military action in defiance of federal statues, and even in the absence of congressional authorization for war.
In an 11-7 decision largely divided along ideological lines (with more conservative judges in the majority), the en banc Fifth Circuit overturned appellate panel and trial court decisions that had ruled in favor of the federal government.
The majority decision is based on statutory arguments, concluding that the relevant stretch of the Rio Grande is not covered by the Rivers and Harbors Act because it isn't "navigable." On that issue, I think both sides have some good arguments, and I will leave it to analysts with greater interest and expertise. Significantly, the majority does not address Texas's "invasion" argument, thereby not overturning the panel and trial court rulings against Texas on that issue.
Texas has also advanced the "invasion" argument in another case, one dealing with the legality of the states SB 4 law, giving law enforcement broad powers to detain and expel undocumented migrants. So far, both the district court and a Fifth Circuit panel have ruled against the state on that point.
In a recent Lawfare article and an amicus brief in this case, I have explained why illegal migration and drug smuggling do not qualify as "invasion" under the text and original meaning of the Constitution. An "invasion" is an organized armed attack. In addition, I outline the dangerous implications of Texas's argument. If accepted by courts, it would give states nearly unlimited power to start wars without congressional authorization, and give the federal government a similar blank check to suspend the writ of habeas corpus (thereby allowing it to detain people, including US citizens, without charges).
In a concurring opinion in the en banc court, prominent conservative Judge James Ho argues that the court should have addressed the invasion argument. He contends that the meaning of "invasion" is a "political question" that the judiciary is not permitted to address. Other courts that have ruled that invasion is a political question have simultaneously concluded that the matter is left up to the federal government (while, in several cases, also simultaneously concluding that illegal migration does not qualify as invasion). Judge Ho, however, argues that courts must defer to the Texas governor's assertion that there is an invasion, at least so long as the governor is acting in "good faith."
This theory has breathtakingly awful implications. It implies a state governor can declare the existence of an "invasion" virtually any time he or she wants, and then "engage in war" in response - even without authorization from Congress. Moreover, Ho argues the governor can continue military action indefinitely, even if the federal government has had time to consider the situation, and opposes the state's actions.
The "good faith" restriction is not much of a constraint. Political partisans can persuade themselves that almost any interaction with foreigners they find threatening qualifies as an "invasion." If illegal migration and drug smuggling qualify, why not economic competition (many "national conservatives" view imports as a national security threat)? Why not supposedly harmful cross-border cultural influences (dangerous foreign ideas and art forms are "invading" our people's minds!)? And that list can easily be extended.
If this conclusion were required by the text and original meaning of the Constitution, perhaps there would be no way around it. But that isn't so. As explained in my article and amicus brief, historical and textual evidence overwhelming demonstrate that only an organized armed attack qualifies as an "invasion." As James Madison put it, invasion is "an operation of war." Nor is there any original meaning evidence indicating that courts must defer to state governments on this issue.
The "political questions" doctrine is a judicial invention, not something embedded in text and original meaning itself. I am skeptical that the doctrine makes much sense at all. Even if it should be used in some contexts, there is no reason to think the meaning of "invasion" is the kind of issue that courts cannot or should not resolve. The meaning of that term is at least as clear as that of many other words in the Constitution that courts routinely interpret. At the very least, the political question doctrine should not be interpreted to mandate the absurd consequence that a single state can start a war virtually anytime it wants - since there is virtually always some substantial amount of illegal migration and cross-border smuggling, at least so long as we have drug prohibition and severe migration restrictions.
Judge Ho also argues that actions by nongovernmental groups can qualify as "invasion." This may be true in some situations, as in the case of attacks by insurgents or terrorist groups. It does not follow that illegal migration, drug smuggling, or other ordinary criminal activity qualify.
Moreover, most of the evidence he cites relates to a situation in the 1870s where the governor of Texas used state militia to combat large-scale cross-border banditry from Mexico. This episode - occurring almost a century of the enactment of the Invasion Clause - sheds little light on the text and original meaning. In a recent opinion, Supreme Court Justice Amy Coney Barrett rightly cautions against reliance on "[h]istory (or tradition) that long postdates ratification." This is the kind of thing she had in mind.
In addition, the 1870s history doesn't really support Judge Ho's position. In an 1874 letter to the Attorney General (which Judge Ho helpfully reprints in an appendix to his opinion), Texas Governor Richard Coke argued that the Mexican bandits had gone beyond ordinary criminality, and "were making war on the people of Texas and their property." He also stressed that Texas state forces were "not authorized to cross the river for purposes of retaliation, nor to make war on the territory or any of the people of Mexico, but only to pursue marauders going out of Texas, and take from them and bring back property found in their possession belonging in Texas." This stops short of claiming a right to "engage in war." Perhaps most important, the Governor acknowledged that "the officers of the United States Government… have the power to prevent… enforcement" of his order to the Texas troops, and that he will withdraw the order if the federal government requests it. That's a far cry from the claim of virtually unlimited power to declare an "invasion" and engage in war in response claimed by Governor Abbott today.
The dissenting opinion by Judge Dana Douglas has additional criticisms of Ho's opinion on the "invasion" issue. I don't agree with all of her arguments. But she's right to point out that Texas's position "would enable Governor Abbott to engage in acts of war in perpetuity."
In a concurring opinion, Judge Andrew Oldham (another prominent conservative jurist), contends that Judge Ho is wrong to argue the majority was required to address the invasion issue. I think Judge Oldham is probably right about that question, but will leave it to commentators with greater expertise on civil procedure.
Yesterday's ruling is not a final resolution of the buoy case. Technically, it only lifts the preliminary injunction against the buoys issued by the district court. However, the majority's analysis makes clear that the trial court will have to resolve the case in favor of Texas on the issue of "navigability." If so, the invasion question need not be addressed, since the en banc majority signaled it does not have to be.
However, the invasion argument is still in play in the SB 4 case, and Texas - and perhaps other states - are likely to continue making it in the future. So long as they persist in doing so, I will keep on explaining why that argument is dangerously wrong.
UPDATE: In the original version of this post, I indicated that the vote in the en banc Fifth Circuit was 11-6, rather than the correct figure of 11-7. I apologize for the mistake, which has now been corrected.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of Reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
"thereby not overturning the panel and trial court rulings against Texas on that issue"
Law professor does not understand the procedural effect of an en banc decision.
No, he's right. You failed to read correctly in your haste to criticize Somin.
The panel decision was vacated automatically. Its like it never existed.
No, the decision was not automatically vacated.
And it's only for the preliminary injunction.
Because the United States has not “clearly carried the burden of
persuasion”108 on even one of the requirements to obtain the “extraordinary remedy”109 of a preliminary injunction, we DISSOLVE our stay pending appeal, REVERSE the district court’s order granting a preliminary injunction, and REMAND with instructions to vacate the preliminary injunction and for further proceedings consistent with this opinion.
Fifth Circuit Local Rule 41.3 says you are wrong.
"41.3 Effect of Granting Rehearing En Banc. Unless otherwise expressly provided, the granting of a rehearing en banc vacates the panel opinion and judgment of the court and
stays the mandate."
The panel decision was vacated, yes. And the preliminary injunction by the lower court was reversed. The point, from context, is that the en banc court did not address the “invasion” question, so did not come to a contrary view. The typical citation in such cases is something like: “And ‘invasion’ under he Constitution does not mean simply unauthorized border crossings by non-military and non-militant migrants who thereafter engage in some ordinary criminality as de facto residents of border communities. See United States v. Abbott, — F.Supp.3d — (D.Tex 2023) rev’d on other grounds, — F.3d — (5th Cir. 2024) (en banc).”
That’s the obvious point, the “invasion” reasoning was not rejected or refuted by the Fifth Circuit, despite reversing the result.
So, yeah, the net result so far in this case is a loss for the “invasion” argument. Which is as it should be and how it will obviously end, the “invasion” argument being incredibly weak.
Notwithstanding the unquestioned authority of a district court case reversed on other grounds, it would seem to place an arbitrary limitation on Art. 1, sec. 10, cl. 3 by requiring the invaders to be uniformed military. Historically speaking, a foreign population trespassing en masse over the border of a neighboring country to occupy the same kinda sounds like an invasion.
Historically speaking, a foreign population trespassing en masse over the border of a neighboring country to occupy the same kinda sounds like an invasion.
Which is not what's happening. Unless, as with "invasion", you are using "occupy" in a sense which makes your historical sense false. Migrants are only "occupying" the United States in the sense that they are trying to join the community, not displace natives or overthrow the government.
And, no, the British invasion led by the Beatles also would not qualify, though that'll surely be your next example of why "uh huh, this is too an invasion!"
If you didn't have stupid arguments in favor of the "we're being invaded!" position, you'd have no arguments at all.
Wow, you ladies sure get upset when anyone challenges your narratives. Always a tantrum followed by some insults. But I must concede you have made your point. History is full of examples of friendly hard working migrants who just wanted to join a community. Like the friendly hardworking Visigoth migrants who wanted to join the Roman community. And the Saxons who just wanted to join the British community. Let’s not forget the Moors looking for some tapas in Spain.
That's quite the projection on your part. He debunked your "argument" thoroughly, and so you've lashed out emotionally.
Riva randomly adds the word "uniformed" into his commentary even though nothing in the decision mentions that. It requires that they be military, de facto or de jure. Not trespassers (who are not trying to "occupy" anything in a military sense).
Depends on if one wants to commit national suicide by arbitrarily limiting the ability of their country to defend its borders. Nothing in Art. 1, sec. 10, cl. 3 requires a military, de whatever. The state just needs to be invaded. Tribes settled themselves in the Roman empire, and they all weren't armies.
1) It requires an invasion, which is inherently military, to actual native speakers of the English language. (Except when used metaphorically. I don't think the founders were speaking in metaphors.)
2) We are of course not speaking about the ability of a country to do anything; we are speaking of the ability of a state to do something.
Again, throughout history, many peoples have trespassed over borders, settled and displaced indigenous populations. Sometimes it involved armies, sometimes not. Whatever form it took, these were invasions of peoples, not metaphors. And the constitution allows the states to respond, even if you would prefer it not.
Your understanding of history is rather...retarded.
The Germanic tribes which migrated into the Roman Empire were, effectively, militaries. In many cases, the Romans settled them on land and created the feodorati system to incorporate them. In short, there's no parallel to immigration into the U.S. (legal or otherwise).
"So, yeah, the net result so far in this case is a loss for the “invasion” argument. Which is as it should be and how it will obviously end, the “invasion” argument being incredibly weak."
Perhaps, but the ruling isn't circuit precedent, as it would be if it were not overturned.
One would be hard pressed to claim that the cartels and gangs such as MS-13 are not organized, but also unarmed.
If 100% of the migrants are organized as a distraction, carrying drugs and working at the behest of the Cartels, wouldn't that be an invasion?
What if the percentage were 99.9% or even just 10%, isn't that still an invasion?
If 1000 armed MS-13 gang bangers bringing drugs is an invasion, but if they're hidden in a herd of 1M migrants, it somehow isn't?
Yes, it was: a panel decision of a federal circuit court is vacated and no longer has precedential effect when the court agrees to rehear the case en banc. And just in case there was any confusion, the court issued an order (as is standard practice) expressly vacating the panel opinion when it took the case:
United States v. Abbott, 90 F.4th 870 (5th Cir. 2024).
Yes, it only vacated the orders that it was reviewing. What's your point?
Can you elaborate? I don't think I was reading especially hastily, but that stood out to me as a clear error.
I read “thereby not overturning the panel and trial court rulings against Texas on that issue” as meaning that the rulings were overruled based on something other than the invasion argument, not that an existing ruling about the invasion claim was preserved.
“If accepted by courts, it would give states nearly unlimited power to start wars without congressional authorization, and give the federal government a similar blank check to suspend the writ of habeas corpus (thereby allowing it to detain people, including US citizens, without charges).”
Nearly unlimited power to engage in defensive actions when massive numbers of people illegally cross the border, anyway. They’d be hard put to leverage this clause to start a war under normal circumstances.
And, are you suggesting that if Congress, not a state, officially declared that a state of war existed, the courts would dispute that a state or war existed? Or would they just dispute the claim that “the public safety” demanded it? Lincoln seems to have gotten away with suspending the Writ in the Civil war, despite not being Congress, and suspending it in areas where the courts were still in operation.
"And, are you suggesting that if Congress, not a state, officially declared that a state of war existed, the courts would dispute that a state or war existed? "
Congress has the power to declare war. Guess where I got that. Does a state have the power to declare war? If so, where does that power come from? Perhaps from the same source which grants states the power to declare secession and to wage war against the United States in accordance with that secession.
You seem to think that states have "[n]early unlimited power to engage in defensive actions when massive numbers of people illegally cross the border," including the power to nullify federal law and the power to usurp powers exclusively vested with the feds. Perhaps the legal crackpots on the Fifth Circuit agree with you. Perhaps we'll find out if the SC does. A distinct possibility considering the current dominance of the crackpot wing of the Republican Party on the court.
Hey, I'm not the one who came up with the concern that the FEDERAL government might exploit illegal immigration as an excuse to suspend the writ of habeas. That was Somin's idea. Tell HIM that Congress has the power to declare war, not me. I already knew that.
Somin's idea, it appears, is that the feds could use the court decision, not ilegal immigration, to suspend habeas.
And my point is that they don't NEED it, they can already declare war and suspend habeas, and the judiciary won't stand in their way.
So suggesting that a court ruling that illegal immigration is an "invasion" implies Congress suddenly gets the power to suspend habeas any time they want is nothing but a distraction, they don't need any such ruling to do that if they're in the mood.
And, you know, I think Somin is quite aware of that. I really do think he's aware of what a stupid argument that was.
The U.S. Constitution limits when the writ of habeas corpus may be suspended:
A Congressional declaration of war doesn’t allow the writ of habeas corpus to be suspended; an invasion does. If the courts concluded that illegal immigration constituted an invasion, that would mean that Congress could suspend the writ of habeas corpus any time it determined that the public safety required it. You appear to be as skeptical as I am that the courts are going to second guess a Congressional determination of what the public safety requires.
Yes, the US Constitution limits when the writ of habeas corpus may be suspended. The US Constitution is not self-executing, I'm talking about what the courts would do, not the Constitution, which typically would just sit there inert, being a piece of paper with writing on it.
And does anyone think that if Congress issues a finding that illegal immigration is an invasion, and declares war, the courts will tell them that they can't suspend habeas?
There's a name for someone who likes unlimited power when they've decided it's for a good cause.
I don't like unlimited power, but I'm not the guy who wrote the Constitution, now, am I?
I think the actual invasion clause could give a state power with very few limitations to rebuff an invasion, even one that didn't involve uniformed military, but this is not the unlimited power to start wars that Somin characterizes it as. Since, you know, you'd need an invasion to exercise it.
You think the Constitution grants unlimited power, with the mere invocation of magic words, for states to start wars.
This is where your border stuff makes you get very silly. And quite big government.
No, I think it grants power with few limits, in the presence of an invasion, for states to respond to wars. We may disagree about what qualifies as an "invasion", but they still need one to be happening.
Congress, by contrast, actually DOES have the unlimited power to declare war, over anything it damned well pleases, or just on a whim. I'm not saying I like that, but it's still the case.
I know what you are going to say in response to this, but the Ho/Bellmore position, in addition to everything else wrong with it, is going to run headlong into international law.
We have, as a nation, contracted with other states to limit our war power. You can crack jokes about whether those limitations are enforceable, but they were made pursuant to our treaty power and constitute binding law. We can only attack other nations, under the treaties we signed, in (1) self-defense or (2) with the authorization of the United Nations Security Council.
And just generally, treaties that restrict warfare were quite familiar to the founders. They were generally bilateral in those days rather than multilateral, but they existed and I don't think anyone can seriously claim they were outside the treaty power.
So if we seriously said "states have plenary power to declare anything they want an 'invasion' and then make war on alleged foreign adversaries", well, that position would put us outside our treaty obligations with the whole world. (It would probably put us outside our bilateral treaty obligations with Mexico as well, though I can't say that definitively as I have not researched it.)
And you're going to say none of that matters because Reid v. Covert and Medellin v. Texas etc. etc., but the fact is, we shouldn't be blithely interpreting the Constitution to render us in noncompliance with a bunch of treaty obligations negotiated by Presidents and ratified by the Senate.
When push comes to shove, treaties aren’t worth the paper they are written on.
Once you mention the corrupt, feckless. Star Wars cantina of the UN you lost me.
"We can only attack other nations, under the treaties we signed, in (1) self-defense or (2) with the authorization of the United Nations Security Council."
Gemini suggested the following limerick:
"There once was a treaty quite grand,
To limit all war in the land.
But the generals laughed,
As their budgets were drafted,
And kinetic action was planned."
But all jokes aside, what if we declare a war, and DON'T attack another nation? Confine all military operations to our own territory? You think those treaties would have anything to say about fortifying our own border, or what we did to people on our own territory who'd crossed it illegally? Lacking uniforms, they wouldn't even qualify as legal combatants...
The answer is this isn't an invasion, Congress has plenary power here, and Congress can authorize measures to stop undocumented immigration, subject to treaty limitations. Texas can ask the federal government to do something but other than that doesn't get a say.
Congress can do a lot of things it doesn't want to do. It's kind of irrelevant, since they won't do them.
The Constitution assumes that the federal government wants and intends to defend the states against outside threats, and that any failure on this front would be due to a temporary lack of knowledge of what's going on. After all, the federal government IS, in large measure, a defensive alliance among the states:
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."
But the federal government has lost it's interest in providing for the common defense. No, that understates it: The current administration is affirmatively hostile to the common defense. Which is why they attack every effort border states make to turn back the tide.
The Constitution simply didn't contemplate a situation where the federal government was dedicated to the opposite of its founding purpose. Maybe the Declaration of Independence does, but it's a bit early for that.
The Constitution assumes that the federal government wants and intends to defend the states against outside threats
Your argument is that we need to abrogate the Constitution because you believe the Dems are so bad they're beyond it's expected framework?
Pure authoritarianism. Why not just kill the Dems, as traitors?
We live in a republic. Your border policies have not carried the day as of yet.
Your reaction is you want to stop with the republic bit.
Learn to act like an American, and not a child who can use big words.
Once again: this isn't an invasion, so "defense" — common or otherwise — doesn't belong in the conversation. Nobody needs a "defense" against crop pickers and landscapers and dishwashers.
"(1) self-defense"
That is what Texas is doing.
Not under international law it isn't
When exactly did Texas go on the offensive against the illegal hordes rather than just defend itself and it's sovereign territory?
I disagree with the Ho position, as noted below, but I think there is a much more limited but nonetheless real right to use self-help to repel invasions reserved to states, and the the constitution simply doesn’t authorize the United States to negotiate that right away by treaty.
Moreover, I think the right would be reserved to situations where I don’t think the US would have any interest in negotiating away a right to respond with force.
As other commentators have noted, a hypothetical I gave below, a substantially sized armed militia or gang crossing the border and attempting to take over or plunder a Texas town, actually occurred multiple times during the 19th Century. I think this scenario comfortably fits within a fairly conventional definition of “invasion.” So while I think Texas’ 19th Century self-help actions were likely generally legitimate and constitutionally authorized, I also don’t think this history supports Judge Ho’s position.
I disagree with the Ho position, as noted below, but I think there is a much more limited but nonetheless real right to use self-help to repel invasions reserved to states, and the the constitution simply doesn’t authorize the United States to negotiate that right away by treaty.
I would just point out that while if you can harmonize this with the self-defense right in the UN Charter, that's probably fine, but it would absolutely be horrible for the United States and the world to construe the US Constitution as prohibiting the United States to agree by treaty to the restrictions that the entire world has agreed on as to warfare. That would really be an act of breathtaking intrusion by US judges- who have zero capabilities to do foreign policy- into the most delicate foreign relations imaginable. You would not want to construe the Constitution to do this, and only a nihilist would.
Well, The Supreme Court has held that the United States can’t bargain away its citizens’ right to trial by jury. So the principle that things the Constitution reserves elsewhere can’t be bargained away by the Federal government through the treaty power is pretty well established. As the Supreme Court said in Reid v. Covert:
“The United States is entirely a creature of the Constitution. Its power and authority have no other source. It can only act in accordance with all the limitations imposed by the Constitution.”
Do you consider that a horrible result?
What’s the difference between this limitation and the trial-by-jury limitation that Reid v. Covert discussed?
Also, suppose New York officials had been tipped off about 9/11 earlier and, given what everyone subsequently agreed was the federal government’s extremely poor preparedness and response, had invoked self-help and managed to shoot down a plane or something themselves.
What treaty obligation would that have violated?
Sarcastr0 22 mins ago
Flag Comment
Mute User
"You think the Constitution grants unlimited power, with the mere invocation of magic words, for states to start wars."
Sacastro - that is not what Brett wrote - you are engaging in your typical dishonesty.
Sacastro
The operative section is article 1 section 10 "No state shall, without the consent of Congress, lay any duty of tonnage, keep troops, or ships of war in time of peace, enter into any agreement or compact with another state, or with a foreign power, or engage in war, unless actually invaded, or in such imminent danger as will not admit of delay."
Further the constitution gives the states power to engage in war, but not start wars.
Well...unlimited government actually.
Normal "big government" like nationalisations and welfare are heavily governed by law, regularly scrutinised, relatively easily challenged etc. They rarely involve physical violence or intimidation exerted upon people and usually are slow-moving enough for people to see what's coming and react/protest/challenge.
None of those safeguards are true when it comes to this.
"There’s a name..."
Brett?
It looks like the Soros controlled media fawning over Harris and whitewashing her record on immigration and everything else is working.
Do these people have any shame or decency? Do "moderates" care that left-wing spending and uncontrolled immigration will bankrupt this country?
The goal would be to win politically.
Invasion is clearly a military thing, unless someone has evidence the FF had something else in mind. This is reasonable in a time before telegraph and railroads, where it could take weeks to get to Washington and then mount a response, even at the quick step.
This isn’t to say mass normal migration couldn’t have significant effects. We have pre-historical evidence in Europe of one culture in a dirt layer, and a completely different one 100 years later. Military? Mass migration? Nobody knows.
These rates may approach that. Nobody knows. Is it a bad thing? Probably not.
But I would keep an eye on some of the disingenuous politicians who want to win elections so they can increase control and decrease economic freedom that enables the above truism.
The problem with dismissing mass migration as a military thing, is that there are too many examples of mass migration being a component of a military operation. Both China and Russia have a history of arranging for large scale illegal immigration into areas they intend to take over, so that the new "locals" can request help, or just end up outnumbering the original population.
Exactly what does that have to do with the current border situation? Are you, as DillDon has, suggesting that foreign nations are "sending" their people here, perhaps for some nefarious purpose? Or that foreign nations are using illegal immigration into the US to unload their prisons and mental asylums?
I think it is entirely possible that at least some of our geopolitical adversaries, such as China, are taking advantage of our deliberately porous border to pre-position covert military assets. I fully expect, for example, that should China decide to go ahead and invade Taiwan, our first indication of it will be the power grid going down across the country, as long lead time transformers get shot out. That would really distract us from having Taiwan’s back, and doesn’t require anybody to cross the border in uniform.
It would be irresponsible not to speculate! And give the states the power to declare war just based on the hypothetical!!
Yes, Sarcastr0, it actually WOULD be irresponsible not to speculate about the potential downsides of having the border so poorly patrolled that people can enter in large numbers without our checking them. Genuinely irresponsible.
It's a dangerous world out there, and it's stupid to be willfully blind about that.
Obviously, we need to build a wall along the northern border in reponse to this yellow peril.
We actually are starting to get a significant number of illegal immigrants across our Northern border, but since they've all gone through Canadian customs, it's not nearly as big a threat.
What an novel constitutional argument you've made, Brett.
Sacastro – Bretts comment is not novel
however, you engaging in logical or intelligent thought would certainly be novel.
Likewise, you not being your typically prick self would also be novel
Il Douche can't help himself because that's what a douche does:
Douche
someone who is more than a jerk, tends to think he's top notch, does stuff that is pretty brainless, thinks he is so much better than he really is, and is normally pretty good at ticking people off in an immature way.
"Wow he's such a Douche"
I was being sarcastic.
Brett's argument has zero constitutional moment, it's at best a policy argument based on vibes and speculation.
" I think it is entirely possible that at least some of our geopolitical adversaries, such as China, are taking advantage of our deliberately porous border to pre-position covert military assets. "
That's just the disaffectedness, bigotry, autism, and un-American conspiracy theorism talking.
The job of defense planners is to ask questions and plan for every eventuality. There are invasion plans for every nation on earth. If you don't think that there aren't already thousands of Chinese, Russian, Iranian, and other nations and groups assets already in county you are either hopelessly naive or woefully ignorant.
If you don’t think that there aren’t already thousands of Chinese, Russian, Iranian, and other nations and groups assets already in county you are either hopelessly naive or woefully ignorant
What does assets mean in this context?
Sarcastr0 7 mins ago
Flag Comment
"What does assets mean in this context?"
Currentsitguy 16 mins ago
Flag Comment
you are either hopelessly naive or woefully ignorant.
Sarcastro - Currentguy's comment fits you to a T
You wrote yourself a political thriller based on nothing,
scared yourself with it,
and call everyone who didn't do the same thing naïve.
I don't expect that will convince many people to share in your fiction.
Or maybe I don't get my ideas of geopolitics from Tom Clancy novels.
Folks in Currentsitsguy's neck of the woods don't read many books. It's mostly afternoon AM radio, Newsmax, Fox Nation, Stormfront, and militia newsletters.
New mutee or a retread, what do folks think?
I think new - Soros right upfront I haven't seem for a while from the usual gang.
Left-wing spending is also a construction I cannot recall.
Do these people have any shame or decency?
From context, you maybe mean people supporting Harris. Obviously, the answer, likely much to your amazement and chagrin, is yes.
If, instead, you meant Trump/Vance, the obvious answer is no. Which, I assume, is a selling point for you.
"Do 'moderates' care that left-wing spending.....will bankrupt this country?"
A scream into the void in favor of shame, decency, and responsible spending....but Pansenmaria will be pulling the R lever? Were you alive from 2016 to 2021?
And on immigration, a tough bipartisan bill was agreed to, almost became law, but Trump tanked it. Why? Because success on immigration with Biden in office would hurt Trump's electoral chances. What a statesman!!!
No. I mean the Soros media which has been relentlessly publicizing everything about Harris in a positive light and everything about Trump and Vance negatively.
They're not reporting the news. They're creating the news.
Jews control the media. Haven't heard that one in hours!
Who said anything about Jews?
Projection.
Was there someone else who posted the comment at https://reason.com/volokh/2024/07/31/en-banc-fifth-circuit-rules-for-texas-in-water-buoy-case-but-doesnt-resolve-issue-of-whether-illegal-migration-qualifies-as-invasion/?comments=true#comment-10666926 under the username Pasenmaria?
You literally linked to your own comment.
So you actually don't know how to use a web browser?
I know how to use a web browser, and, technically you're right: You linked to his comment immediately before your own. In a lot of browsers, this results in the name line on the comment being cut off, and the first fully displayed comment is your own. So it actually DOES look like you linked to your own comment, understandable mistake.
That said, you literally linked to a comment that doesn't say anything about "Jews" to supposedly prove he was raving about Jews.
Maybe you should re-read his comment. I'll bet if you try real hard you can find the thing about Jews.
Yeah, he mentions Soros, who happens to BE a Jew, for some value of "Jew". That's not the same thing as talking about "Jews". The fact that the guy is a Jew doesn't mean that nobody can criticize him without being an antisemite.
You happen to be the one who brought up Jews, not him.
Brett Bellmore's selective telepathy is truly a thing to behold.
If you're too ignorant to understand that Jews controlling the media is a classic antisemitic trope, then you should just sit this one out.
The victimhood! One of the more pathetic methods of avoiding facts unkind to your ilk.
The way Trump spent: Nobody’s ever seen anything like it. People are saying that no one who acts as apologist for Trump or who is thinking of voting for him should ever mention too much spending as a problem in comparison to "leftists" or anyone else. Adding to the national debt is the one thing he actually excelled at. Well, that and sexual misconduct.
Obviously!
"In a concurring opinion in the en banc court, prominent conservative Judge James Ho argues ...."
It appears that a village is missing its idiot. They should contact the 5th Cir.
The governor. Of Texas. Acting in good faith.
Where is Richard Widmark when we need him?
"udge Ho also argues that actions by nongovernmental groups can qualify as "invasion." This may be true in some situations, as in the case of attacks by insurgents or terrorist groups. It does not follow that illegal migration, drug smuggling, or other ordinary criminal activity qualify."
This is a larger concession on your part than you may realize, in that illegal immigrants have often crossed the border in an organized fashion, engaging in violent confrontations with law enforcement in the process. Assaults on the border patrol, including group attacks, are quite frequent.
Remember, Brett pretends that an organized attack on the Capitol isn't an insurrection, but a bunch of people running across the border at the same time is an invasion.
Remember, I argue that an organized attack on the Capitol that Trump didn't organize or order isn't an insurrection by Trump. I've actually conceded that it could be an insurrection on the part of the Proud Boys, albeit a rather pathetically hopeless one.
Stand back and stand by! Brett's got some apologetics to engage in.
Brett disregards the email trail indicating Trump intended to send the mob to the Capitol (and intentionally lied to federal authorities with respect to that point).
Clingers gonna cling. And continue to be the culture war's losers.
Seriously, I understand that Reason making the comments unindexed by search engines will impede your verifying it, but it's true: I haven't argued that the attack on the Capitol on January 6th couldn't be legally construed to be an "insurrection", only that, if so, it's not TRUMP'S insurrection, because he didn't direct it, plan it, or carry it out.
That was the Proud Boys, with assistance and encouragement from the FBI.
He did plan it. With assistance and encouragement and approval from lying, delusional, on-the-spectrum, un-American, right-wing dumbasses.
Like Birther Brett.
Oh hey look what I found:
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/06/13/can-the-january-6-committee-hearings-break-through-the-barriers-of-political-ignorance-and-bias-underpinning-the-big-lie/?comments=true#comment-9544278
Brett Bellmore 2 years ago
Flag Comment
Mute User
No, we’re comparing threats made two years ago to something only left-wing partisans call an actual insurrection.
Apologist then apologist now. That's Brett's consistency.
Brett Bellmore has admitted that he is autistic and that chemicals pickled his brain. His record indicates he has a conveniently spotty memory, a vivid taste for shit-rate conspiracy theories, a wide bigoted streak, and a thorough disdain for modern America.
Every disaffected comment he contributes to this blog should be viewed from that perspective.
Yes, I don't think it actually WAS an "insurrection", unless you're going to say that insurrections are remarkably common. But it involved violence against the government, just like the riots Sarcastr0 will insist were just protests, and the various Capitol invasions Democrats laugh off, and thus barely cleared the bar for being construed to be an insurrection, if you stubbornly insisted on doing so.
In which case I have to wonder why you're so blasé about all the other insurrections that happened on days other than January 6th.
Regardless of whether you insist on calling it an 'insurrection' or insist in denying the other attacks on the government were 'insurrection', it wasn't Trump's 'insurrection'.
Weak after you got caught hairsplitting.
And lying about what I say about not conflating protests and riots to try and recover some credibility after being called out.
Double weak.
Sarcastr0, your grasp of English grammar and logic is so weak that you routinely deride anything more complicated than "Ugh. Trump bad! Ugh!" as hair splitting. Seriously, once somebody's argument gets beyond Dick and Jane level language complexity, you can't reliably parse it. You just hammer it into some pre-existing concept you're carrying around, and dismiss the parts that break off in the process as a crude attempt to conceal that round peg as a fake square.
So the fact that I'm capable of forming and expressing ideas at a normal adult level of complexity leaves you utterly confused, and you just assume that I'm continually equivocating rather than just reasoning over your head.
Yes, J-6, and a lot of events you insist on calling protests despite the arson and assaults, technically meet the minimum standard for "insurrection": The government got attacked; That's all it really takes to be able to construe something to be an "insurrection".
But unless you're an idiot, you don't call somebody kicking a mailman in the shin "insurrection", and what happened on J-6 fell well short of anything somebody would reasonably call an insurrection. It's like calling something a knife fight because one of the participants has a pocket knife in his pocket, and leaves it there.
Now, I know this all went "whoosh" over your head, but it was still worth pointing out, I think, for the benefit of others whose playsets actually have holes that aren't round.
You said above: "I argue that an organized attack on the Capitol that Trump didn’t organize or order isn’t an insurrection by Trump."
You also said: "I haven’t argued that the attack on the Capitol on January 6th couldn’t be legally construed to be an “insurrection”, only that, if so, it’s not TRUMP’S insurrection, because he didn’t direct it, plan it, or carry it out."
Now you say: "what happened on J-6 fell well short of anything somebody would reasonably call an insurrection" just as you did 2 years ago.
Which really makes the first 2 claims look like lies to me.
Your claims of nuance fall before your very stark assertions up top. You didn't claim any nuance; you didn't caveat at all.
You're 180 degrees inconsistent. And you're not admitting you misremember, you're claiming you are totally consistent when everyone who can read can see that is untrue.
You can't reason with superstition, bigotry, or belligerent ignorance, Sarcastr0.
Or, apparently, with an autistic clinger.
You can tell the character of a man when caught making a statement directly contrary to the facts he now asserts and he fails to admit that, at one of those times, he was wrong.
Brett, not a good look for you.
1.6m in 2021
2.2m in 2022
2.0 in 2023
600k+ in 2024
Those number are a few more than a bunch
A mass migration, not a military invasion. We are this great city on the hill. Their source countries have broken economies because they are dictatorships or nominal democracies lousy with corruption.
In an economically free country, the more, the better.
Remember, Brett pretends that an organized attack on the Capitol isn’t an insurrection
Not much of an insurrection - No guns, several guards holding the doors open,. yes there were a few fights, but nothing close to a true insurrection.
I hope clingers remember points like when they are begging their betters to be lenient toward the culture war's casualties (and wondering why the modern American mainstream is something less than magnanimous with respect to conservative bigotry, superstition, and backwardness).
Hey Revolting, I hear there's an Air BNB In Terror-Ann Available cheap, you might even to be able to use Grub-Hub and order a Bacon Cheeseburger, umm, don't try and order the Cum-of-sum-yung-guy though, you'll literally lose your head.
Frank
The “invasion” issue seems like such a red herring, unless and until the states want to “engage in war.”
But the idea they cannot rebuff waves of illegal entrants into their borders in this way seems ludicrous.
All this really just demonstrates the zealousness of open borders advocates and their willingness to bend and break just about anything to attain their objectives.
It is "ludicrous" to assert that a state can't violate federal law in its attempt to influence immigration and drug smuggling? If it seems ludicrous to you that federal law has primacy, the problem is with your seeming.
Fortunately, as the court ruled, the state isn't violating federal law, since the law only applies to navigable waters, and the state is doing this in areas that aren't navigable.
A careful read of their "navigability" analysis might remind one of the "yes, bees are fish" case.
They do this funny thing of dismissing "evidence" proffered by the government - caselaw isn't "evidence"! - while relying on other opinions for their cost-benefit analysis of making the river suitable for commercial traffic. They acknowledge the existence of ferry traffic across the river but not in this particular 1000 foot segment. They dismiss the conclusions of an Army Corps report but find significance in the report's subordinate findings. When the dissent objects that their construction of the legal standard re: "navigability" would also necessarily exclude any lake from being "navigable," all they have to say is, "well, lakes aren't rivers." Whether a body of water is "navigable," according to the Fifth Circuit, depends on what kind of body of water it is.
Ilya - perhaps prudently - does not venture into that analysis. But it reads as a perfectly tangled mess of inconsistent legal reasoning, perhaps woven together from bits written by clerks tasked with different portions. The conclusion is that a river that can support ferry traffic and small recreational boats, and that can be improved to support more commercial traffic, is not, in fact, "navigable."
"They acknowledge the existence of ferry traffic across the river but not in this particular 1000 foot segment. "
Well, yeah, the fact that one part of a river is navigable doesn't mean another part is. That's pretty trivial. The Court has also rejected the government's, "This ditch connects to a navigable water, and thus is also a navigable water." claims.
So you didn't read it, gotcha.
To focus in on just one ludicrous aspect, take the implication that open borders zealot Biden, and his Border Czar Harris, are concerned here with facilitating the free flow of interstate commerce here by ensuring navigable waterways. LOL! Tell me, can you point to a few of the vital trade vessels that are being impeded here? No, they are just mad that something might conceivably put a tiny dent in their massive, unprecedented illegal immigration importation program. Regardless, while I haven’t read the opinion, it sounds like the court says there was no violation of federal law.
Thanks for putting "open borders zealot Biden..." so early in your comment, I could skip the rest of it.
You're correct Bee-otch, Border Czar-ina Common-Law Harris-Wilie-Brown has the Rio Grande locked down tighter than the "Second Gentleman's" Testicles. So if by some Catastrophe of Nature, she gets into the Oval Orifice (I can hear it now, "Cums-a-lot? for a brief shining moment, there was a place, where Men were Men and the sheep were nervous!"
Frank
The Supremes didn't go for the"parade of horribles" argument against presidential immunity. It doesn't seem likely they'd go for it here.
... invasion is "an operation of war." Over the past 70 years we have seen wars fought in many non-traditional ways.
In a concurring opinion, Judge Andrew Oldham (another prominent conservative jurist), contends that Judge Ho is wrong to argue the majority was required to address the invasion issue.
Judge Oldham is absolutely right. Judge Ho should have simply taken the win and shut up. Once Texas won on statutory grounds, the Constitutional issue became moot.
"Judge Ho should have simply taken the win and shut up. "
That's not the way to get the next SCOTUS vacancy.
Judge Ho only opens his mouth to change feet.
His concurring opinions have all the subtlety of someone screaming in your ear, "LOOK AT ME! I WILL DO ANYTHING! NEXT MAGA PRESIDENT, PUT ME ON SCOTUS! IM ALREADY FRIENDS WITH HARLAN!"
The Constitutional issue in the immediate case became moot, but the larger issue is not moot, because Texas certainly does want to take actions beyond placing obstructions in non-navigable sections of the Rio Grande.
At that point, the Fifth Circuit can rule on the "invasion" issue when it reaches the court. For now, the court majority (except for Judge Ho) rightly stayed clear of that issue.
.
A predictable and weak argument from a disaffected, bigoted culture war casualty and strident MAGA mouthpiece.
Should a governor in an advanced, modern, educated, productive state test this theory by asserting an invasion involving delusional, gullible, half-educated, un-American, right-wing bigots?
Most states -- even our better states -- have backwater stretches afflicted by an undesirable concentration of undesirable bigots.
"An "invasion" is an organized armed attack."
From the guy who thinks that it's okay for the state to recognize human organs as commodities.
But if human organs can be commodities, then why can't massive entry of illegal immigrants be an invasion? Or perhaps we should just think of the participants as meat-bags of organs trying to sell their parts at the local Rothbard-Posner Clinic for Ghoulish Libertarian Ideas.
If there is anything the wingnuts who operate and adore this white, male, faux libertarian blog can't abide it is some genuine libertarian content.
Carry on, bigoted, bitter clingers. But just so far as your betters permit.
Using up your end-of-the-month "White, Male, Faux, Bitter, Klingers, Bettors"??? there Revolting?
Don't blame you, they don't carry over to the next month, might as well use them for the
ELEVENTYFUCKINGGODDAMZGAZILLIONBAZILLIONTRIMILLIONTH TIME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! INFINITY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh sorry, that was my Inner Paul Reubens coming out
Frank
He has one libertarian idea you think is extreme so some other extreme idea should be accepted? Not quite seeing the connection.
In a limited sense, we sometimes allow people to use products of the body as a commodity. Hair has been sold. Giving blood in some locations was done for a profit. Surrogacy contracts.
I think his organ proposal is misguided. But, it does not follow that his sensible, normal, definition of "invasion" is also incorrect.
Human organs already are commodities. Even a conservative professor should be able to comprehend that point.
Carry on, bitter clingers. So far as your childish superstition, old-timey bigotry, and disdain for modern America can carry anyone as the culture war continues to develop in favor of the liberal-libertarian American mainstream.
They certainly are, Revolting, they certainly are.
And that shriveled up Testicle that you call a Brain is well past it's "Best By" Date
Frank
I'll gar-an-damn-tee you if there were 12 million Amuricans in May-He-Co using up their resources, smuggling drugs, murdering and raping Mexican Citizens, they'd consider it an "Invasion" and they wouldn't wait on the Military or the Border Patrol, the Cartels would put heads on pikes (is that a thing?) outside every town, I don't care how cheap we cleaned their hotel rooms
Frank
The political question doctrine has its roots in the Court recognizing that there are some circumstances in which a definitive holding that purports to bind and compel purely political actors - and not, say, lower judges empowered to decide cases before them - may simply invite routine non-compliance. In this, it continues the Court's long tradition of strategic abnegation, whereby it expands its power by asserting it lacks it.
The doctrine stands in strange tension with the Court's recent declaration that the judiciary, alone, can say what the law is, particularly as the political question doctrine is increasingly being weaponized to secure conservative substantive victories. Ho's declaration that whether an "invasion" is occurring ought to be considered a "political question" is bizarre - does the word, and its constitutional history, really provide us no justiciable standard? Moreover, the idea that states should be able to decide the matter for themselves raises all kinds of questions when states and the federal government may disagree among themselves. Where's the political remedy? How would it function?
None of this really matters to Ho, of course, because he's possibly one of the more ends-motivated jurists we've recently seen, really something in the Alito vein. Liberal states will never invoke the language, so he doesn't care what could theoretically happen if New York could deem an influx of Canadians as an "invasion" worthy of a New York-styled military response. All that matters is giving Abbott a stick to poke in the federal government's eye.
It’s being coordinated and enabled by foreign groups and nation-states that wish us harm:
– The UN
– Israel
– Globalist Marxists (the secular Jews)
– China
– The International Catholic Church (also Satanists)
That is an invasion. 5th generation warfare.
Not sure I agree with you 100% on your Police work there Jesus.
If it wasn't for Jews like me, you'd have been nailed to a cross 2,000 years ago, wait a minute, that didn't come out right.
I agree with you on the UN, Catholics, Chy-Na! but the only Marx I worship is Groucho, I can't tell you Jesus, because then I'd have to kill you (again, and you say you'll be back in 3 days, but just like a Goy, always late, what's it been? almost 2,000 years? they don't have telephones in Heaven?) but Israel gives way more useful Intelligence to the US than the other way around (How much clearer could the Moe-Saad Make it in 2001? "BIN LADEN PLANS ON FLYING JETS INTO BUILDINGS??????" even that Chucklehead "W" couldn't be bothered from his stupid running (You know what I like about "45"? he doesn't exercise.
Frank
Frank,
Among the activist Jews, I bin them into two categories. Orthodox Jews and Secular Jews.
Orthodox Jews, or Talmudians, are the Zionists who hate Christians and the rest of goyim, and do evil things like sacrifice White babies and genocide innocent actual semites in Palestine.
Secular Jews, or Globalist/Marxists, are the communist Left thought leaders that has been so disastrous to humanity and of all demographics throughout human history have been the direct cause of more human suffering then any other group, ever.
There is some overlapping concerns, like the Great Replacement, but only their outcomes overlap, their motivations are completely different. The Talmud-worshippers believe the only way they are safe is if they destroy the Amalek (every European and their nations). The Marxists want a communist revolution and have shifted from their class-based consciousness to revolution, to an identarian one which pits everything degenerate and gross versus everything Normal and Beautiful.
And there are some contradictory concerns, like the Talmudians want to genocide every brown semite in Palestine. While the Globalists are agitating and manufacturing the pro-Palestinian protests.
And then there a whole bunch of other Jews who are neither. Like the bottom half of you.
You should probably just say you have three bins, then.
The loony bin doesn’t have to be explicitly stated here. It’s implied clearly enough by what he’s saying.
Out of curiosity, which kind of Jew do you think Jesus was?
"An "invasion" is an organized armed attack."
As we approach the 110th anniversary of the Battle of Liège, it's fascinating to consider that, according to Ilya, if only the Imperial German Army hadn't fired *actual shots* as they crossed the Belgian border with 750,000 men, it would not have been a real invasion! They could have made it all the way to France without violating Belgium's neutrality and pulling the British Empire into the war. This is the state of the libertarian brain.
The German Army was an armed force entering the country with hostile intent, for the purpose of taking Belgian territory or property by force.
If the Belgians had surrendered without firing a shot, this wouldn’t have changed anything or made it not an invasion. The threat of force is force.
The principle applies in a lot of other contexts. If people point a gun at you and tell you to give them their money, it’s still robbery even if no shots are fired. You can still say they “attacked” you. You can still say it was an “armed attack.” You didn’t exactly give them your money voluntarily.
This isn’t any different. If Belgium had surrendered and let the Germans pass through (and requisition their transportation system to help supply their military), this would have been achieved by force. It would have been an armed attack even if Belgium had surrendered without shots fired.
This is really not all that complicated.
"The German Army was an armed force entering the country with hostile intent, for the purpose of taking Belgian territory or property by force."
Wrong. The Imperial German Army entered Belgium for passage to France. "Taking Belgian territory or property" was never the goal.
Das Horst Wessel Lied is a great hiking tune.
I always wondered what exactly he lied about, though.
Having ones army enter another country without permission has been considered casus belli (act of war) since people were still speaking Latin.
You think a sustained trespass isn’t a taking? And even aside from that, you seriously think the German Army didn’t intend to help themselves to Belgian infrastructure and transport to supply their forces? How do you think the German Army would have been supplied?
You are so close to understanding it's almost agonizing.
Which part of "army" in the phrase "German army" confused you?
I think that the term “invasion” here has to be construed similarly to the same term as used in the Suspension Clause. State self-help is an emergency remedy, analogous to federal suspension of the Writ of Habeas Corpus, reserved for emergency situations.
So I think the Supreme Court’s construction of the term “invasion” in Duncan v. kahanamoku is highly relevant. In that case, the Court, in deciding whether suspension of the Writ of Habeas Corpus in Hawaii following Pearl Harbor was lawful, rejected the political question designation and deferential approach that Judge Ho proposed. It firmly held both that the question is a judicial one, and that “invasion” requires war-like acts. While Pearl Harbor was a real invasion, and suspension was lawful for some period afterwords, by the time Kahanamoku was arrested the threat of invasion had receded and the suspension had become invalid.
I think that case’s reasoning is instructive. An “invasion” requires war-like acts. It does not necessarily require war in a formal sense or convenional militaries, however.
As a hypothetocal scenario, suppose a large armed Mexican gang crossed the border and attempted to take over a Texas town. I think Texas would be entitled to invoke the clause and offer a military response, not just a law enforcement response. This scenario shows that the Clause remains viable in our times, particularly if law and order breaks down in a neighboring country to the point of armed militias or gangs spilling over the border. It nonetheless interprets “invasion” in a fairly conventional way, involving an armed force crossing the border with the intent to take territory, plunder, or do other destructive, war-like acts.
"war-like acts"
Infantry [groups of military aged men] crossing a border is a war-like act.
You think unarmed men and women going into a building is an insurrection.
Military aged is a canard - both false and immaterial.
It wasn't to the Obama admin! Our performance evaluations from that period regularly remarkee how many MAMs -- military age males -- we had captured/killed, eliminated, destroyed, "removed from the battlespace", etc.
Bigots gonna bigot . . . especially at the white, male Volokh Conspiracy, operated by and for America's vestigial right-wing losers.
So now you posit when we were in Afghanistan and Iraq, our military was in an analogous situation to what we have on the border now?
That's like Dr. Ed level stupid.
Sorry the Military wouldn't take you (I know, I know, "Homo, much better now though!") Funny how all the people with no military experience are the "Subject Matter Experts" on all things military.
There's a reason the 9-11 Hijackers were men in their 20;s and 30's and not 50's and 60's.
But c'mon man, you know how many Naked men you would have seen at 5am at your nearest MEPS?? (Google that shit)
Frank
One advantage people with no military experience have over nearly all of those who do is that the people who didn't serve never lost a war. Plus, fewer of them turn out to be war criminals or shit-rate mercenaries.
Judge James Ho is a superstition-addled, gay-bashing bigot; a fan of race-targeting voter suppression; a right-wing xenophobe; and part of the Federalist Society's Torture Caucus.
Anybody know the screen name he uses at the Volokh Conspiracy?
I've heard it's "Coach Jerry Sandusky" oh wait, that's your name.
"An "invasion" is an organized armed attack"
would the Italian Army's attack on the French Alpine Border in 1940 be considered an Invasion? Their attack on Ethiopia? Libya? Greece? could any attack by Italians be considered an "Invasion" with that definition?
Frank
Judge Ho cites an 1876 report from the House of Representatives entitled "Texas Frontier Troubles": https://shareok.org/handle/11244/38309?show=full
It deals with the continual raids by bandits from Mexico into Texas. It is quite interesting from a historical perspective, if nothing else. In its 210 pages, the word "invasion" is used 34 times. The House had formed a special committee of five in response to President Grant's Annual Message to the Congress (called the State of the Union Address today), specifically Grant's reference to "the inroads, robberies, and murders along the Mexican border in Texas."
Texas Governor Richard Coke had issued an order allowing state officials to pursue bandit raiders across the Rio Grande into Mexico. U.S. Attorney General George Henry Williams wrote to Coke, claiming the order was illegal, but he would consider any response Coke had to make. Coke made a lengthy response in which he complained of the lack of assistance from the U.S. government and the unwillingness of the Mexican government to help, invoked the sovereign rights of Texas, and specifically invoked the Invasion Clause of the U.S. Constitution. According to the House report, Williams acceded to Coke's arguments.
Quibbling about the precise dictionary definition of "invasion" misses the point and purpose of the clause. The United States has a duty to protect the states from foreign incursions and depredations. And if the United States fails to fulfill this duty, then any state has the sovereign right and duty to defend its own borders.
No, it has a duty to protect them against "Invasion." You just got to look it up.
Thank you for that brilliant insight from the school of hyper-autistic textualism. Congratulations on your ability to see a word and accurately transcribe it. You would no doubt make a stellar copyist.
Most people accept the idea that a government's primary duty is to protect its citizens. (You, of course, may disagree.) An eight-year-old can parrot what the Constitution says. It takes a bit more experience to opine on what it means and to opine on concepts like sovereignty and the right to self-defense that predate it by millennia.
But thank you for participating. You've given us all a lot to think about,
I don’t think this report supports Judge Ho’s position. An armed militia or gang of bandits crossing the border for plunder and mayhem fits fairly comfortably within a conventional definition of “invasion.” It’s an attack by an organized armed force.
I considered the 9/11 attacks an invasion that could have warranted an armed response or a suspension of the writ of Habeas Corpus in the immediate aftermath. An invasion doesn’t have to done by a formal army or a state to be an invasion. The armed forces involved don’t have to be organized especially well. And while a single conventionally armed person isn’t an invasion, I think a single person armed with a nuclear weapon would be. (A single person armed with a nuclear weapon would justify suspension of habeas corpus in the area). I thought a couple of dozen indiviiduals armed with kamikaze jumbo jets were as well.
As in many things, the boundary isn’t exact. As the 9/11 and loner with nuclear weapon cases illustrate, It depends on the damage threat as well as the size of the force. But that doesn’t mean “invasion” can mean whatever a legislature wants it to mean.
I agree with Judge Ho that this self-help remedy remains reserved to the States. But it’s a limited emergency measure, reserved for cases that meet a conventional definition of “invasion.” I think its meaning is similar to what the meaning of “invasion” in the Suspension Clause means. And the courts have made clear that the writ of habeas corpus can only be suspended if there’s an invasion as the courts construe the term. I think that also applies to state military self-help.
Read the CNN article about Trump's "rant." They're not even pretending to be objective. The Fourth Estate is an evil upon society.
Well it did start as the "Clinton News Network" owned by Mr. Jane Fonda, not like they try and hide it.
Lol.
The problem here isn't that we're being "invaded", it's that our President is not taking adequate care to enforce our immigration laws. We don't need to get into the weeds on federalism to fix this, we already have two perfectly fine methods for dealing with an unfaithful public servant: either vote them out of office, or eject them from office.
And if you can't muster the necessary backbone and votes to discipline our lawless President and his Gang of Do-Nothings, then tough cookies. The system only works when you have sufficient backing from the people.
So, all you Texas hotheads head on back to town. Spend your time working the system as designed. Stop making novel legal claims that just muck things up and slow things down.
The democratic process doesn't work when there are a sufficient number of Hispanics already here who favor their own race over their fellow citizens.
Ask any Hispanic citizen. They see illegal Central Americans as their kin. Not Americans.
You don't have to give up on democracy just because immigration laws aren't being enforced, that's giving up and letting the bad guys win. When they go lawless, the correct response is to double down on law enforcement, not throw up your hands. So get out there and vote, or write your Congressmen and Senators to impeach these failed executives.
As I’ve said before, enacting laws and then not enforcing them, or enforcing them under only limited circumstances such as upon complaint, isn’t especially neat or pretty. But it’s been a fairly common approach taken in situations where there is strong disagreement about whether activity should be illegal, and a large minority that does it anyway. It’s been an approach taken with many kinds of laws at various times in this country – sexual morality, gambling, alcohol, drugs, obscenity. abortion, the 2nd Amendment, the Civil War amendments, environmental laws, more. While most of these situations outrage conservatives, it’s been done in plenty of situations that outrage liberals. For example, the South’s and the courts’ approach to the Civil War Amendments until well into the 20th Century could be described this way.
So outraged as you are, low enforcement priority is a legitimate policy option, and a long practiced one, for governors and presidents who disagree with certain of the laws they are charged with enforcing.
May I suggest there is some legitimacy to this? The Framers, in setting things uo, deliberately required the participation of every branch of government to convict someone of a crime, a levislature to pass a law, the executive to enforce it, the judiciary to try and sentence it. For serious crimes, the jury system involves the people directly. All of this division of power means that in order to enforce laws, you need an effective consensus of society. Once you stop getting consensus, you get into situations where laws remain on the books without getting enforced much or at all.
One could argue this is by design. It’s a feature, not a bug.
Plausibly, (a Democratic) Congress could enact legislation to implement treaties with Mexico and require the river to be left unobstructed.
Have you been there? you could "obstruct" it with a few shopping carts.
I've got a better Idea, throw a few bars of soap in, watch the crossings really "drop"
OK, that's a variation of "How do you keep an N-word from finding your cash?(HT (Hon) E. Smayles), "Hide it in a book"
Frank
"How do you prevent looting?"
"Put a 'help wanted' sign on the door. The schvartzes won't go anywhere near it."
No need to restrain yourselves with respect to use of racial slurs at this white, male, conservative blog. The management encourages the publication of explicit racial slurs at the Volokh Conspiracy.
Other bigoted slurs -- against gays, women, Jews, Blacks, immigrants, Asians, Muslims, transgender people, etc. -- are fine by the Federalist Society members who operate this blog, too.
Just be careful with criticism of conservatives, though. That can get you censored here.
Speaking of southern justice . . . Norma Padgett is dead.
Good.
And some still ask what the "Rev." stands for, "Revolting" I've seen obscene sympathy cards that had more class than you, and "Good"??? People will say that about you someday "Coach",
Frank "Coach Sandusky, there's a John Donne tolling for you"
Feel free to try to say something nice about Norma Padgett, clinger.
Don’t really need your permission there “Coach” but here we go
She was somebody’s mom,
Now feel free to reminisce about when you could still get a hard on, “Coach”
Frank
So is Harry Moore. He's been dead for 70 years
You and a bunch of bigoted right-wing law professors can celebrate Harry Moore’s death and Norma Padgett’s life. Better Americans will commemorate Moore’s heroic life and welcome the overdue replacement of Norma Padgett.
Carry on, obsolete clingers. So far as your betters permit.
As unilluminating as the arguments here are, I highly suggest people read Oldham's concurrence to get a good idea as to why Ho's concurrence is so terrible as a legal matter.
I have to admit, every single time I read "esteemed colleague" in the Oldham's concurrence, I could envision the sarcasm dripping from the pen.*
*Okay, I know it was typed on a computer. But "dripping from the keyboard" doesn't have the same ring to it.
Hmm... To repel an actual invasion by armed forces Abbott would need to have some kind of military at his disposal. The Texas Rangers are good at their job, I'm sure, but they wouldn't hold out well against trained infantry with automatic weapons, armored vehicles, perhaps even an air force. For that, Abbott would need an actual militia, a well armed and well disciplined one at that. Gov. Richard Coke reportedly called on the Texas state militia to deal with cross-border banditry in the 1870's. That could work again, I suppose...
No, wait, there aren't any state militias anymore, are there? And the Court has ruled, more or less, that the well-regulated militia reference in the 2nd Amendment is a dead letter, in effect amending the amendment without Congress and state ratification. So that's out. Abbott may believe that unregulated militias, consisting of burly guys with long beards, huge tats, and AR-15's, can fend off an actual invasion. If these guys were all lined up along the border, shoulder to shoulder, I might think twice about crossing the river. Then I would mount up in my Bradley, line up the Abrams' to my left and right, put my attack helos on hot standby, and take my chances. Yes, the regular army would be called in, but how soon? The federal government would need a little time to find out if I'm the actual President of Mexico or Pancho Villa. Many, perhaps all, of the burly guys would go down before the army could get there.
The Texas Military is commanded by The Adjutant General of Texas, the state's senior military official appointed by the governor, and is comprised of the Texas Military Department, the Texas Army National Guard (TXARNG), the Texas Air National Guard (TXANG) and the Texas State Guard (TXSG).
As usual, the federal supremacists expand the 18 enumerated powers the states granted to Congress by adopting the Constitution to constrain the states to pusillanimity. And the strict constructionists limit the ability of the federal government to stop states from doing the things common law permitted them to do at the time of adoption. The federal executive branch asserts unique power to grant entry to whomever they please to the United States, and states reasonably point out that the act of granting entry violates federal law and burdens the states without recompense. A rational observer would agree that the states have every tool at their disposal to expel the foreign invaders, and let Uncle Sam take the hindmost.
A rational observer!
States didn't grant any powers to Congress.
Sorry Texas, you lost me at suspension of habeas corpus.
Why was Trump stupid enough to speak to the National Association of Black Journalists? He should have declined, saying that articles written in ebonics don't qualify as journalism.
The bigots who run this white, male blog thank you for that one.
To highlight that Harris doesn't have the guts to actually speak to any group not guaranteed to be friendly, I suppose.
Several of Trump's scheduled appearances since the Biden-Harris switch show the planning of a campaign with the wind at their backs and the confidence to probe new electoral territory. It's a sign of poor campaign management that they haven't pivoted more quickly to back out of a few of these appearances.
Also, Trump is that stupid.
To be fair, Trump did back out of this appearance; he just did so a few minutes into the appearance.
He reportedly also started to back out before it began, when he learned that fact-checking might occur.
That's the type of right-wing bravery for which the Volokh Conspirators are known, too.
I realize it’s a complex case procedurally, but why would the political question doctrine help the State? If the existence of an “invasion” is non-justiciable, what’s to stop the President from sending a bunch of troops to the Rio Grandr to clear out the buoys?
Very briefly-
If it's a political question, then a state could simply claim something (almost anything) is an invasion, and "engage in War" ...
And courts could not stop them. Because it's a political question.
That's why it helps the state. If the state claims it is an invasion, and is taking acts (engaging in War) to repel the invasion, then many of the acts* done pursuant to that declaration are essentially unreviewable by the courts, including the original decision (to declare the invasion).
*Not all. If there is a specific allegation of a violation of an individual right subject to review under precedent, that would be allowed.
I get that whatever the State of Texas does is unreviewable by a court if “invasion” is nonjusticiable. My point is that the judicial vacuum ends up leaving the decision up to whoever has physical control of the Rio Grande. And Joe Biden’s army is a lot bigger than Greg Abbott’s. How does Texas stop the federal government from physically removing the buoys if the courts are closed?
In two parts-
1. If it is at the point of "Whose army is bigger," then the issue of a court's jurisdiction is not really an issue.
2. This is only about that specific clause of the Constitution. It doesn't mean the fed's actions are unreviewable.