The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Can the January 6 Committee Hearings Break Through the Barriers of Political Ignorance and Bias Underpinning the Big Lie?
Most of those open to evidence already know that Trump tried to reverse the outcome of an election he legitimately lost. Reaching the rest is likely to be extremely difficult, at best.

Many have analogized the currently ongoing January 6 Committee congressional hearings to the 1973 Watergate hearings. There are indeed some obvious parallels, such as the fact that both cases involve investigations into an incumbent president's efforts to subvert the electoral process. But there is also a key difference. Richard Nixon was smarter and less brazen than Donald Trump. He therefore tried to cover up his nefarious activities. Thus, the Watergate hearing exposed inside information about Nixon's involvement that was previously unavailable to the public.
By contrast, Trump's efforts to reverse the result of the 2020 election and illegally retain power were largely out in the open. And most of the evidence against him has also long been known. To the extent that many people still deny it, it isn't because the truth is unavailable, but because they are ignoring it or actively rejecting it. Jeff Greenfield nicely brings out this contrast in an article in Politico:
The core premise of this hearing was that the images from that day, accompanied by the comments and testimony of key players in Donald Trump's orbit, would galvanize a national audience.
It's too easy — and more importantly, unfair — to dismiss the presentation as "political theater." The interviews with insurrectionists, the blunt comments from former Attorney General William Barr that Trump's beliefs were "bullshit" — were effective tools in trying to communicate what happened on Jan. 6 and in the days and weeks before. Rep. Liz Cheney (R-Wyo.), in her role as chief prosecutor, skillfully summarized the evidence to come, which promised to paint a damning portrait of a president and a coterie of aides and acolytes, determined to retain power "by any means necessary," including the wholesale abandonment of constitutional norms….
But looming over Thursday's event, and the hearings to follow, is one key fact: In the broadest sense, we know what happened. We may learn compelling details, and we may see a clear, coherent picture of what happened, but we know the sitting president of the United States oversaw an attempt to overturn an election and seize power the voters denied him. We know he embraced the sentiments of the rioters who stormed the Capitol. And it is this fact that so contrasts this proceeding with what happened almost half a century ago.
If you think back (inevitably) to the Senate Watergate hearings in 1973, every dramatic moment in those proceedings came in words spoken by witnesses, unadorned by visuals and made-for-TV moments….
The old-fashioned, methodical parade of witnesses during the Watergate hearings was powerful not because of what we saw, but because of what we heard: We were learning facts we did not know, and that was, over time, causing minds to change….
Now consider what we heard Thursday. Smoking guns? Enough to arm a platoon; but essentially the same smoking guns we have seen and heard for a year and a half. We saw and heard the president and his accomplices openly call for the election to be overturned. We saw and heard demands that legitimate votes be discarded, that state legislatures seize control of electoral votes. We saw key advisers and allies of Trump urge — at meetings in the White House — that the military seize ballot boxes, that rogue electors be certified. We've known since the days after the election that there was no voter fraud of any consequence…..
But the people who refuse to accept this reality — or (in the case of many GOP officials) pretend to refuse — are locked into this alternate reality by conviction or political necessity. Nothing that has happened in the year and a half since has shaken this stance; indeed, the percentage of Republicans who believe the election was stolen remains undiminished, since Trump left office.
Part of the problem here is a matter of simple ignorance. For mostly rational reasons, many people devote little or no time to seeking out political information, and thus are often ignorant of even very basic political information, such as the names of the three branches of government. No doubt, some people remain ignorant of the truth about the 2020 election, for such reasons. But the biggest problem in this case isn't just simple ignorance, but the combination of ignorance with bias in the evaluation of political information.
Many voters - particularly committed partisans - evaluate political information in a highly biased way, overvaluing anything that supports their preferred party or ideology, and discounting or rejecting anything that cuts the other way. When the leader of the Republican Party claims the election was "stolen" from him, such people tend to believe him, even if those claims have no basis in reality. I have written about this problem in previous posts about January 6 and Trump's Big Lie about the 2020 election, such as here and here:
Why do so many Republicans believe blatant falsehoods about the 2020 election? The answer is rooted the broader problem of political ignorance. Because there is so little chance that any one vote will make a difference to the outcome of an election, most people are "rationally ignorant" about politics and government policy. They spend little time seeking out relevant information, and are often ignorant of even basic facts about the political system, such as the names of the three branches of government. Such ignorance makes people more susceptible to lies and conspiracy theories, including those about the 2020 election….
In [my book] Democracy and Political Ignorance, I described how belief in conspiracy theories is partly fueled by general public ignorance about government and public policy. Most of the public has little understanding of government and political institutions. They thus underestimate the extreme difficulty of planning, coordinating, and covering up large-scale conspiracies. Birtherism, trutherism, and Covid conspiracy theories are all more prevalent among people with relatively low levels of education and political knowledge. The less you know about government, the easier it is to believe that events are controlled by a shadowy cabal of ultra-competent evil-doers who can skillfully cover up their misdeeds.
But the popularity of conspiracy theories is also boosted by partisan and ideological bias. In assessing political information, most people act not as objective truth-seekers, but as "political fans" who tend to overvalue any claims that cohere with their preexisting views, and downplay or ignore any that cut against them. Much like sports fans, who tend to be biased in favor of their preferred team and against its rivals, political fans are highly biased in favor of their preferred party and ideology, and against its opponents.
Thus, it is not surprising that trutherism was especially popular among Democrats (many of whom hated George W. Bush), birtherism appealed primarily to Republicans (many of whom hated Obama), and Trump's election conspiracy theories appeal almost exclusively to his own supporters. Particularly in an era of severe polarization, partisan bias has a big impact on voters, leading many to believe ludicrous claims they might otherwise reject.
As I have also emphasized in previous writings about 2020 and January 6, such ignorance and bias is far from unique to Trump voters, Republicans, and right-wingers. There are lots of parallel examples on the left. Social science evidence indicates that bias in evaluation of political information is widespread among both liberals and conservatives, with neither being significantly better or worse than the other, on average.
But the persistence of the Big Lie about the 2020 election may be more dangerous than most otherwise similar examples. The risk is that it could lead to actions that gravely undermine the basic structure of liberal democracy. If you believe that the 2020 election was "stolen" from Trump, you are probably predisposed to believe similar claims about future elections, and to support the use of illegal and violent means to forestall such injustice. Ironically, in the name of preventing an electoral "steal," Big Lie believers could end up facilitating the very evil they think they are preventing. That risk makes Trump's Big Lie more dangerous than a deception that "merely" facilitates the enactment of a specific dubious policy, such as the lies that Barack Obama used to help push through the Affordable Care Act.
Overcoming this bias is likely to be extremely difficult. Even the best-designed hearing may not dent strong partisan biases, especially if many of the partisans are inclined to just dismiss the hearings out of hand, or not even bother to watch. The problem is exacerbated by the reality that those who still believe in the Big Lie have now gone on doing so for some 18 months. It's often psychologically more difficult to give up a long-held belief than one you arrived at just recently.
The January 6 hearings might still have some beneficial impact on public understanding. Some number of voters are merely ignorant of the facts rather than biased. That may be especially true of swing voters, who generally know less about politics and pay far less attention than committed partisans. Of course, people who have paid little or no attention to these issues so far are also unusually likely to ignore the hearings.
The hearings - and accompanying investigation - can also shed new light on the role of various less significant figures than Trump. For example, it has uncovered evidence indicating that legal scholar John Eastman - who promoted various ridiculous legal theories intended to help Trump overturn the election - may have been even more reprehensible than previously thought. But, just as Nixon was the central figure in the Watergate investigation, so too with Trump and the effort to overturn the 2020 election. For obvious reasons, wrongdoing by the president is a far bigger deal than the misdeeds of lawyers and other underlings, though the latter also deserve their share of opprobrium.
There is some evidence that GOP voters' commitment to the Big Lie may be receding. For example, Georgia Gov. Brian Kemp and Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger -both of whom famously resisted Trump's efforts to pressure them into manipulating the vote count in their state - recently easily staved off Trumpist challengers in their respective primary elections. But Big Lie advocates have won some other key GOP primaries.
There is a long way to go before the Big Lie is stripped of its potency. One possible way to speed the process may be for more prominent conservatives and Republicans to condemn it, as Kemp, Raffensperger, and former Attorney General Barr have done, among others. People are more likely to reconsider a political commitment if urged to do so by leaders on "their" side of the political spectrum. But, for obvious reasons, most GOP leaders don't want to alienate a former president who remains popular with the party's base, and could potentially win the party's 2024 nomination.
We can also erect safeguards against future 2020-like efforts to tamper with elections, most notably by reforming the Electoral Count Act, an idea that enjoys substantial cross-ideological and bipartisan support among election experts. In the long run, we should also work towards restructuring the political system in ways that reduce the influence of public ignorance, diminish the stakes of partisan conflict, and empower people to make decisions in settings where there are much better incentives to become informed and minimize bias.
In the meantime, however, I fear that the Committee hearings are likely to have only a modest impact on the prevalence of the Big Lie. We will likely have to cope with its menace for some time to come.
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The "Big Lie" is that Biden won.
Now we're stuck with it.
Nope. Biden won.
The conditions under which he won were pretty dodgy, and we will probably never know if the dodginess of the election actually changed the result, (I think it did, but I can't prove it.) but the EC voted on the second Wednesday in December, and at that point the election was over. Fini. Done. Nothing remained but ministerial formalities.
I generally admire Trump's never give up approach to things, but, geeze, you can take that too far, and he did.
This is NOT to say he was responsible for the attack on the Capitol. On the contrary, the attack actually derailed his plans for challenging the EC count, and that it would was perfectly evident. There's no way in hell he would have ordered such a thing, it would have been self defeating.
Unfortunately, the Democrats and TDS victims like Somin can't be content to say that Trump wash pushing a stinky legal theory. (They know stinky legal theories sometimes win, and become retroactively legitimate.) No, they have to claim he was pursuing a coup.
That's THEIR big lie.
Brett, you are right. You nailed it.
He was certainly attempting to challenge the EC count beyond the second Wednesday in December. You said so yourself. And he knew at the time that there was no legal way to do so.
How is that not pursuing a coup?
"And he knew at the time that there was no legal way to do so."
Maybe he knew it, maybe he was delusional, maybe he figured that wining the case defines what's legal. You don't know, and I don't know.
"How is that not pursuing a coup?"
Because that's not what the word "coup" means. It means "a sudden, violent, and illegal seizure of power from a government."
"Coups" are, by definition, violent. NOT BS legal maneuvers. If Trump had ordered the attack on the Capitol, THAT would have been a "coup". But there's no evidence he did, and every reason to think he wouldn't have.
Pursuing a BS legal theory in the hope your political allies will go along with it is NOT a "coup". I'm not sure it's even technically "illegal". If it had worked, would the Supreme court have ruled it a political question? Probably.
His lawyer told him it was illegal. That's why it was so easy to pierce attorney/client privilege. Anyway, US law always counts gross negligence as tantamount to intent. You're expected to pay some minimum amount of attention; you can't escape liability through intentional ignorance.
My dictionary defines a coup as
a sudden and decisive action in politics, especially one resulting in a change of government illegally or by force.
I agree that coups are usually violent, but it's not necessary. People are talking about an ongoing coup in Russia for example, but there's no violence implied. Most of the theories end up just sort of locking him in his hospital.
A coup to overthrow Russian President Vladimir Putin is underway, according to Ukraine's military intelligence chief.
"A coup to overthrow Russian President Vladimir Putin is underway, according to Ukraine's military intelligence chief."
If you believe that, you'll believe nearly anything.
I don't usually believe the example sentences in dictionaries for their purported facts. Do you?
Even by that definition I'd distinguish what Trump was attempting from actual illegality. It was more "extra-legal", the sort of abuse of ministerial function for policy making that's all to common in our government.
As I understand what was actually planned, the goal wasn't to get him declared the winner on the spot, but rather to throw the count into sufficient doubt that he could force a review of the election in several states. Way too late for that, of course.
but rather to throw the count into sufficient doubt that he could force a review of the election in several states.
No.
Are you claiming Trump wanted an objective review of the results? If so, you are delusional. What he wanted, plain as day, was for state legislatures or election officials to negate the pro-Biden results.
Stop making excuses. It was an attempt to retain power, whatever it took.
“Whatever it took”
I don’t think that’s right. Whatever would include armed agents to keep Biden and his people physically out of the White House. Or having Biden arrested and taken to Gitmo or whatever.
I never supported Trump and believe that his actions after the 2020 election - all of them, not just January 6 - render him unfit to be president again. But he wasn’t willing to go yo any length to stay in power. January 6 was a riot, but if it was actually an insurrection it was the most pitiful in the history of the world. And I’m not sure that Trump is subtle enough to intentionally trigger the riot like he did.
I think it was more likely he was just reckless with his language. Something he does very very frequently.
OK. There were limits, maybe.
Though some of what you describe would have required cooperation from law enforcement, military, whatever, which (I hope and believe) would not have been forthcoming. Maybe even Trump knew that.
if it was actually an insurrection it was the most pitiful in the history of the world.
Insurrections are generally farcical until they aren't. Failed insurrections look dumb in hindsight. And these organizers don't seem to have been particularly bright.
Incompetent criminals are still criminals.
But they're not generally intentionally farcical.
I agree, the organizers were not terribly bright. Rather like the idiots the FBI sucked into their Whitmer 'kidnapping' farce, and I suspect the resemblance is not accidental.
I just don't think Trump was one of the organizers.
Ding ding ding! The limits were what other people were willing to do; Trump himself would've done anything.
I think you are mistaken. He appears to have been truly convinced that an objective investigation would find significant fraud that would have changed the election. But the powers that be ignored it all and claimed 'No evidence' over and over again as if that would make it true. We didn't have enough evidence to prove Trump won (statistical evidence is a red flag, but can't pick out any particular votes for instance), but we certainly had enough to qualify as probable cause to investigate. Which they consistently balked at.
Consider the phone call to Georgia where he talked about finding votes. It was described as a request to make up false votes, but it was indisputably actually a claim that there would be at least that many instances of fraud if they actually investigated. There is no way in the context of the call to see him as wanting Raffensperger to make up nonexistent votes. https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-raffensperger-call-transcript-georgia-vote/2021/01/03/2768e0cc-4ddd-11eb-83e3-322644d82356_story.html
When the people who claim there is 'No Evidence' of fraud turn around and claim the OTHER people are propagating a Big Lie, that's pure gaslighting. Everyone who looks can find dodgy elements without any real difficulty, but the establishment is in pure see-no-evil mode. Which pushes more people to believe there WAS significant fraud. Otherwise, the anti-trumpists wouldn't HAVE to lie. "Falsus in uno, falsus in omnibus" is a little too strong, but it's rational to lower your trust in other claims by someone who says something obviously and trivially false.
What makes you think the establishment is in a see-no-evil mode and didn't investigate? All the purported evidence was investigated and came up empty.
You are the one turning a blind eye to the truth because that's what your leader and his mouthpieces are telling you to do.
"All the purported evidence was investigated and came up empty."
That is simply not true.
Remember when the judge asked if there were a non-zero number of R observers, and that was used to throw out a complaint about observers being kept out? The left wing media celebrated, but it is an obviously flawed argument after 10 seconds of thought. If there is 1 R observer, 50 people counting, 6 D observers, and 5 observers not being allowed back in, that is still a problem. Heck, you don't even need to check numbers. ANY legitimate observers not being allowed in is a problem.
Remember when the PA supreme court decided that keeping observers 50 feet away from people counting votes was just fine since the statute didn't explicitly call out a distance for the observers? Hint: if the establishment uses dodgy reasoning to subvert the rules that are intended to prevent fraud on the vote counter's part, they are probably trying to get away with cheating.
There is no right or necessity for vote counters to operate in private. Do you really think the excuse for covering windows and blocking public access but allowing "media" to record in Detroit was legitimate? It could be, but it's still suspicious as heck, and there's no particular reason to just take their word for it.
It doesn't count as an audit if it's not a third party checking. Spot checks by your own people of their own procedures is at best a sanity check. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
You can (and will) keep repeating these conspiracy theories ad nauseam. They don't mean anything other than that you read conspiracy websites. Do you really think the conspiracy websites will ever, under any circumstances, tell you that "Oh, turns out, after looking into it, this suspicious-looking situation was actually totally innocuous!" No, that will never happen. Just like the tabloid never says, "Oh, that thing with the bat baby? Seems like that was just a doll in the end." Just like the cult leader never says "Oh, I guess I was wrong, looks like the world isn't ending after all! So sorry." No, the calculations were just off. The end of the world is next year!
Yeah but now you're getting way into the weeds, parsing "illegal" vs. "extra-legal." We have at least one federal judge leaning to the "illegal" side of that divide, for example.
So calling it a coup attempt is at least reasonable. I think we've already met "preponderance of the evidence," and the only argument for a "reasonable doubt" is that his ego is so enormous that it clouds his ability to distinguish right from wrong... effectively immunizing him from any criminal activity.
Has any sentence by Brett that started this way ever ended well?
Trump was President on January 5th and regardless of what happened at the Capital he was going to still be President on January 7th.
Thus, if a coup, successful or not, is an attemp to replace the leadership then what happened on January 6th was NOT a coup.
For some, I belive most, it was a large protest on the Mall that evolved into a smaller melee at the Capital without any larger purpose than to make the country "see" their anger and frustration. For others it was a serious attempt to disrupt a process in the mistaken understanding that they could change WHO would be inaugurated two weeks later.
Thus, if a coup, successful or not, is an attemp to replace the leadership then what happened on January 6th was NOT a coup.
Pretty nitpicky distinction there. The word that's been thrown around, which was not part of my vocabulary, is "autogolpe," which apparently means a coup-like attempt to retain power rather than surrendering it as a result of an election or other normal politoical process.
"Thus, if a coup, successful or not, is an attemp to replace the leadership then what happened on January 6th was NOT a coup."
You're over-parsing this. A coup doesn't have to happen while the coup leader is out of power. If you're legally in power and you violently get rid of the people who'd preside over removing you in a few days, that's just as much a coup as if you did it the day after you were removed.
"For some, I belive most, it was a large protest on the Mall that evolved into a smaller melee at the Capital"
And here you're falling for the media narrative. The attackers on the Capitol began moving into place before Trump started talking, and the attack began while he was in mid speech, before anybody actually attending his speech could have reached the building from the other end of the Mall. There's evidence of substantial premeditation on the part of some of the participants, too.
Sure, some people who attended the speech actually did arrive at the Capitol after it had already been breached, and found a building thrown open already, with police tape removed, and figured it was open to tourists.
But the idea his speech and rally had any causative relationship to the breach ignores timing.
Brett, reread Judge David Carter's March 28 opinion concluding that the interaction between Donald Trump and John Eastman more likely than not violated multiple federal criminal statutes. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cacd.841840/gov.uscourts.cacd.841840.260.0.pdf "Dr. Eastman and President Trump launched a campaign to overturn a democratic election, an action unprecedented in American history. Their campaign was not confined to the ivory tower—it was a coup in search of a legal theory." (Slip op., p. 44.)
Acting in concert with a lawyer to commit a crime doesn't insulate a non-lawyer from criminal liability.
So he clains Easan was trying to do what Sussman, Strzok, and Clinesmith did.
Okay, so you're going with the John Hinckley defense. "Yes, Trump engaged in a coup attempt, so maybe he's guilty, but maybe he's not criminally liable because he's not guilty of reason of insanity."
There is no such definition. (Have you never heard of a bloodless coup?)
No. Coups are not necessarily violent, or at least not dramatically so.
Though of course this coup attempt was, ultimately, violent.
Yeh - the Capital Police killed two unarmed women.
Are you sure about that? You should check with Rudy- he said yesterday antifa killed ms Babbit!
Was it a coup when Democrats were doing it in 2016?
I would agree with you that Biden won in the sense that on Jan. 20, 2021 he was inaugurated, As for whether he got actual votes counted for him in the various states is another question. Unfortunately there seems to be no way to contest this given the limited time between election and certification. This is especially true given that the courts either failed to uphold existing election laws or ignored them completely.
I know many fault Trump for obsessing about the result, but given the abuse he suffered from Democrats, the media and those never Trumpers within his own party (also his own shortcomings) his obsession is somewhat understandable.
" As for whether he got actual votes counted for him in the various states is another question. "
Why, Prof. Somin, do you continue to stain your libertarian views by voluntarily associating them with an increasingly strident, faux libertarian, polemical, right-wing blog that attracts this audience of delusional misfits and bigoted malcontents?
This audience has attracted at least one delusional bigot. You.
1) The conditions were not "pretty dodgy." You just really don't grasp the purpose of elections, and therefore don't grasp the purpose of election administration rules.
2) He was 1,000% responsible for the attack on the Capitol. Whether he can be held legally accountable for it or not (Brandenburg is a very high bar to clear), he was factually and morally responsible for it. He all but ordered it — as everyone understood except Brett. The people who engaged in the insurrection even said they were doing it because Trump told them to. (And, no, you don't get to lookasquirrel with a Bernie Sanders supporter shooting at some members of Congress; this was not a lone crazy guy, but organized efforts.)
Again: he told his supporters that the election had been stolen, by corrupt election officials, governors, and legislators. He told his supporters that corrupt judges were refusing to do anything about it. If all of that were true, then the attack would've been justified.
If you spend months yelling that the guy in the house at the end of the street is a child molester, and that the cops won't do anything about it, and then one day you gather a mob near his house and say, "The guy has a kid in there right now! He's about to molest the kid!" you don't get to claim you had no idea or intention that the mob would storm the guy's house.
3) It most certainly did not "derail" anything; it was integral to his plans.
4) "He couldn't have intended that because it would have been stupid" is not a valid argument anyway. Hot tip: criminals are stupid. They do self-defeating stuff all the time.
5) He absolutely was pursuing a coup. As the testimony has shown, everyone around him not actively being fitted for a straitjacket told him that he had lost. He knew he was lying. And yet he did it anyway.
"The people who engaged in the insurrection even said they were doing it because Trump told them to."
Back to the dog having ordered the Son of Sam murders, I see.
Oh, sorry, I forgot which whatabout you were going to employ. It wasn't the congressional baseball game shooting; it was the son of sam.
Again: David Berkowitz was a lone individual. Not thousands of people.
Thousands of people entered the capital. Did thousands of people intend an insurrection? I don’t think so. The number of people in there that intended that were more like dozens.
Most of the rest were just idiots getting caught up in mob bullshit.
I'm not sure why that makes a difference.
They plainly went along with the dozens of serious insurrectionists.
Are you counting the Feds ?
Further, he told the insurrectionists he loved them, they were "special people."etc., and of course refused for several hours to try to call them off.
The latter fact alone establishes his approval of the rioters, and his culpability.
The most pathetic part of Trump’s broken personality is his desperate need to be liked. All you gotta do yo have him say nice things about you is compliment him. Even if you’re the dictator of North Korea or Russia. It seems to be at the level of a mental illness.
The rioters supported him, he can’t help responding positively even in a ridiculous situation. Trump is dumb, but is he really stupid enough to commit a crime right out in the open like this? I’m really not sure.
He did more than just push the lie. His tweets like "Be there, will be wild!" are about as explicit as you can get without becoming facially illegal. Obviously Trump is too smart for that.
In other words, imagine Trump were trying to incite an insurrection with plausible deniability. It would look... exactly like what happened.
Trump's culpability under 18 U.S.C. 1512(c)(2) (which criminalizes attempts as well as completed endeavors) attached prior to, and separate from, his ginning up the crowd to storm the Capitol. (Although Trump's conduct on January 6 is further evidence of a corrupt state of mind.)
I hope that DOJ does not try to prove Trump's vicarious liability for the actions of the Capitol mob. The offenses were complete well in advance thereof. I am wary of giving the current Supreme Court an opportunity to rule that the speech on the Ellipse is protected expression under Brandenburg v. Ohio.
I agree with this. The Mall speech is not important as evidence, except perhaps as yet another supporting indicator of intent. But it's not worth bringing in just for that.
Yes, the speech where he specifically tells people to be peaceful definitely demonstrates his intent.
Perhaps Randal has only seen edited versions of the speech?
Like acquitted said, the content of the speech didn't matter. The riot was already happening by then. The only relevant thing about the speech was when and where it was scheduled to take place. It was designed to bring a big crowd to the Capitol as the election certification was happening. Of course that's not anything by itself -- it makes sense to protest when and where it'll be maximally effective -- but it is necessary for demonstrating Trump's overall plan. He had to give people a reason to be there.
Anyway, David, it really does not matter how determined you are that it's OK for elections officials to make ad hoc changes to the rules, supposedly on an 'emergency' basis, over a year into a pandemic, when the legislature has had plenty of time to change the rules if they wanted to.
As I told Somin, you don't make ad hoc changes to election rules if you want the loser to think they legitimately lost. You simply don't.
Well, as I told you, you're alway sure of yourself without actually being right about anything. These changes were routine and routinely made. Losers in the past never denied that they had legitimately lost. Indeed, Trump himself knew he had legitimately lost. It's just that Trump, uniquely, did not have the integrity to admit it.
I think you’re right. The only exception that I’m aware of is Pennsylvania, where the governor changed the rules in defiance of the stated intent of the legislature. Seems unconstitutional on its face but I’m not a comma parsing lawyer so who knows.
Also no idea if that was enough to flip the state.
If the Republicans had challenged the rules early, they might have won.
What you can't do is wait to see how the election comes out, and then challenge the rules only after you lose. If you disagree with the rules going in, you have to challenge them in time to change them for the election. If you allow them to go into effect... then you've implicitly accepted them. That was Kavanaugh's basic point. Timely challenges are fine; late challenges are presumptively bad-faith attempts to corrupt an election already in progress.
This was all adjudicated in the courts. Many of the emergency rules were stricken. Others survived.
It's completely ridiculous to claim that Trump was justified in second-guessing the courts here.
In PA, the "Courts " refused to hear the challenges, in Wisc, the Supreme Court upheld the election by 1 vote. In GA, the water leak scam was never explained, the self serving declarations of the partisan poll workers were believed. In AZ, the final count was within a few thousand votes. The harvesting of ballots in nursing homes did occur, from people too impaired to vote. The problem we have is that arguably the VOTES were there, but the VOTERS did not vote the ballots. Once a fraudulent vote is in, it cannot be challenged. If this Committee was interested in putting this matter to rest, it would have followed normal order where the minority picks it members on the committee. Once Pelosi blew that up, the fix was, again in.
Ok, long string of conspiracy talking points... I'll just pick one to respond to.
Once a fraudulent vote is in, it cannot be challenged.
I'm not sure where you got that idea. Fraudulent votes absolutely can be challenged, and were challenged. It turns out there just weren't that many fraudulent votes.
Just look at the recent Michigan Republican signatures. They were fraudulent, challenged, and thrown out. And that was just signatures. Fraudulent votes won't be counted.
By asking them to march "peacefully and patriotically"?
Moreover, the criminal cases all allege that the riot was planned beforehand, which undercuts the claim that Trump sent them to the Capitol.
Yet somehow, they all seem to think it was Trump's idea. Could it be... Twitter? No you're right, it's probably Bill Gates's vaccine chips activating in people and telling them to attack the Capitol in Trump's voice.
I keep pointing out, you're basically in, "Yes, the dog really did order the Son of Sam murders!" territory here. People get stupid ideas all the time about what somebody else might want, that doesn't make the other person guilty of anything.
"I keep pointing out,"
And you would have a point if we had a talking dog. We don't but we do have a ranting ass.
Who never said, "Go invade the Capitol!" If they had him on tape saying that, we wouldn't be having this conversation. We're only having it because TDS sufferers are trying to pretend that bog standard rhetoric is criminal incitement.
"If they had him on tape saying that, we wouldn't be having this conversation. "
Sure we would, because you TrumpSuckers would deny it.
Which we know because we do have him on Twitter saying it. And yet the TrumpSuckers deny it.
Especially you Brett! Your whole theory of the case is that Trump is so stupid and tone-deaf that he was blind to the fact that he was stirring up a riot (even though that was the actual effect, and everyone knew it would be, and even the people carrying out say they got the message loud and clear). And that Trump is so stupid and vain that he can't be held accountable for his actions because he just couldn't resist believing Drunk Rudy's self-serving lies over literally everybody else telling him that he lost. So much so that you keep comparing him to a dog.
I don't buy it. If you had to name two of Trump's best skills it would be shameless self-promotion and charismatic influence. There's no way he accidentally fomented a riot because he honestly believed he truly won the election.
The fact that you can even suggest such a thing is just more proof that Trump can have a strong influence on the weak-minded.
So, the GOP just has to get people in positions in order to cheat better than the Democrats? At this point, I'm okay with that. Especially since now, no one can contest an election result. All you have to do is state repeatedly that it was the "most secure election ever"
Game on!
The Democrats don't cheat. Just remember that as you start cheating. You are the thing you hate.
Obviously you're no fan of reality.
60+ lawsuits, no evidence of fraud, Trump's own lawyers conceded no fraud, Trump's amicus brief in support of Texas at the Supreme Court had no evidence of fraud.
But your Dear Leader said there was fraud, and Dear Leader is an honourable man, etc.
It is an undisputed fact, backed up by criminal convictions. That there was fraud.
You miss quoted your talking point.
What criminal convictions proved that the election victory was procured by fraud? And did those 60+ lawsuits not actually occur?
Perhaps if you stopped watching Newsmeth or One Reich News Network you might have a clue.
Yes, the Big Lie is that Biden won. And that correcting that result would have been a coup when in fact leaving the cheat to succeed was a coup.
No one has the duty to accept this or let it continue, no matter how much time passes.
Why a daytime hearing ???,
I mean if it's getting such great ratings, seems they'd want to have it at night when more peoples could see it.
And you know what Ignorance is? believing there was no fraud counting the votes in Atlanta (The City "Too busy to hate"?? right, don't go there on a slow day) Fithydelphia, Phoenix, Detroit... how does 95% of the mail in vote go to Sleepy? You got Fraud, right there in River City, that starts with an "F" and ends with a "D"
Frank "Heck of a Job, Sleepy"
Proof. You've heard of it, I'm sure. Now give us some from Atlanta, Philadelphia, Phoenix, or anywhere.
What about those 100,000 votes from Italy or wherever Giuliani was on about?
And the Venezuelan hack?
The sober Rudy or the inebriated Rudy?
Oh, there's only one Rudy.
"2000 Mules" is ironclad proof.
Your proof is... a movie that you watched?
Whatever you do, don't watch "It"! It's proof that clowns are murderers! When are we going to start executing the clowns? Just show the jury this movie and the death penalty is guaranteed.
You mean, a documentary he watched?
"2000 Mules" is a documentary in the same way that "Loose Change" is a documentary. "2000 Mules" is a documentary in the same way that "9/11: The Road to Tyranny" by Alex Jones is a documentary. Dinesh is a documentarian in the same way as Alex Jones only without the pretty face and Jones is not a convicted felon.
If you think this made for TV farce is going to reduce ignorance or bias in anyone you are insane.
First, only really ugly people are allowed to participate. That first officer was not bad, but she needed more cleavage.
Second, this is pure hate speech, presenting only one side. All the Republicans are Never Trumpers. Trumpers were all excluded.
That slow droning speech of Liz Chaney reminds me of that of Hillary Clinton. She has to speak that way because we are not as intelligent as she is. The hearing is increasing hostility against these Swamp creatures, not persuading anyone.
an election he legitimately lost. Reaching the rest is likely to be extremely difficult
Just personal insult by a leftist lawyer.
"Can the January 6 Committee Hearings Break Through the Barriers of Political Ignorance and Bias Underpinning the Big Lie?"
No
[Saved everyone some long winded reading.]
Think of it as Liz Cheny's swan song.
LOL....succinct. 🙂
A. No, because the Democrats think Jan 6 was worse than months of Burning Looting and Murdering, sometimes at the behest of local governments, sometimes with the active assistance.
Anyone who thinks the Jan 6 hearings have any interest in showing Democratic corruption is a damned fool.
But the Chairman's so Articulate!, and Bright! and Clean!! (HT Sleepy J) and called Clarence Thomas an "Uncle Tom"!!!!
After calling Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas an "Uncle Tom" recently, Rep. Bennie Thompson (D-Miss.) defended his comments to CNN, saying, "But I'm black."
Thompson's initial comment came when he called in to a New Nation of Islam radio show Sunday. He said Thomas was an "Uncle Tom," adding that "it's almost to the point saying this man doesn't like black people, he doesn't like being black," according to The Week.
https://www.huffpost.com/entry/bennie-thompson-clarence-thomas_n_5246572
Frank "Hearing? What Hearing?"
Hey Reason, how about a trade? Ilya Somin for Ilya Shapiro with a writer to be named later.
Best Idea of Today.
+1
To fit in with their party of choice, there will need to be an undisclosed sum of money.
Why not both?
Be easier to take them seriously if they didn't have Uncle Remus chairing it and Gloria Stivic as ranking RINO
So "Uncle Tom" is not acceptable, but "Uncle Remus" is?
Uncle Remus is just an accurate description of his appearance for anyone old enough to remember Disney's Song of the South (which I believe woke Disney has locked away).
Zippity do da.
First Afro-Amurican Male to get an Oscar too
Fortunately, the Internet is forever.
Hey racist POS, gfy.
Biden's presidency has moved us into an area where one cannot admit that they voted for either candidate. That makes it pretty hard to move the needle.
Funny, I voted for someone, but it wasn't "either candidate".
AKA throwing your vote away, nothing wrong with that, wish more peoples had.
It is not throwing one’s bite away to vote for a candidate whose campaign one actually supports. It is throwing away one’s vote to votes for the idiots the two major parties give us each election cycle, knowing they are idiots who will attack liberty, the rule of law or destroy the economy, or any combination of those.
I get it, voted for (the very wrong) "Reverend" Al Sharpton in the 04" DemoKKKrat Primary as a goof, then realized he was actually the least bad of the choices (remember? Aighhhhrhhhhhh Howard Dean? John Kerry? John Edwards?)
And the 3rd party only finished 150,000,000 votes behind, just a matter of time...
Thank G-d that I did not vote for either candidate. I don't even have to lie now.
I'm not a Democrat, but I voted for that dimwit Joe Biden and if the choice in 2024 is between Biden and Trump I'm doing it again.
The real mystery here is why the Trump-haters are so insistent that everyone publicly acknowledge the 'truth' that they offer concerning the election or be sent to a re-education camp of some sort (I would think that Somin might be a bit more worried about government-enforced 'right-think', given his background). I haven't seen calls for Leftists to confess publicly that they lied about or were misled by the Russia hoax in 2016. I haven't heard any demands that the dupes and prevaricators who lied us into the Iraq War must publicly confess their sins. I could go on, but the list would get rather lengthy rather quickly.
I am personally convinced that the election was the most corrupt since 1960, if not 1876. I'm not necessarily convinced that the election was stolen, however. It is possible that the election was corrupt yet the senile imbecile would have won anyway (i.e. the corruption might not have made a difference in the outcome). I am also not a low-information voter, nor am I a partisan of the Republican Party (my academic credentials are quite similar to Somin's except for the fact that I have a PhD in Political Science and not a law degree, and am a Professor of Political Science and not a law school professor).
Somin's rhetorical sleight of hand in which he mentions low-information voters, which certainly exist, and then conflates them with critics of the electoral corruption in 2020 doesn't really follow, in part because Somin is not exactly right concerning low information voters and partisanship. He should talk to his old buddy Jason Brennan who rightly points out that low-information voters are, for the most part, apathetic about politics (he calls them hobbits). The sorts of hyper-partisans Somin mentions are actually not low-information voters, but high information voters whose partisan biases tend to blind them to contradictory information (Somin right mentions this group which Brennan calls hooligans). Somin elides the distinction between them in order to dismiss anyone who has doubts about the purity of the election as an idiot, and this claim begs the question about corruption itself.
Of course, Somin's field of expertise is not really electoral politics, so his opinion that the election was clean is no more authoritative than the man on the Clapham omnibus' opinion (or mine, for that matter, since my field is political and moral philosophy).
I also believe the election to have been one of the most corrupt in US history, but whether it was stolen or not is unknowable and ultimately pointless. No matter who won officially, half the voters did not vote for him. Some states have rules concerning recounts for close elections; I would instead say that since you could run two consecutive recounts ad get different totals, and because half the populace will be disgusted whichever side "wins", you may as well flip a coin and get it over with.
Whatever vote corruption there was, the media contributed for more. Hiding the Hunter Biden laptop story -- pushing the Russia lies -- both did far more to sway the election than a bunch of ballot stuffing in random districts here and there. The worst of those stories were all leftist and favoring the DNC, and the media was so biased against Trump, that they have done far more damage to US democracy than any amount of ballot box funny business.
I believe it was Ilya himself who said in these columns that he would vote for Biden because Trump spent too much. I cannot imagine a better indication of political blindness.
And to forestall complaints about my own bias, I will state that I am a hard core libertarian, practically an anarchist, but the pragmatic streak in me would have preferred Trump win only because he pissed off the establishment and deep state so much. He's a xenophobic economic ignoramus with no principles I've been able to discern, but then, Biden hasn't reversed tariffs and has increased subsides.
The telling difference is how Candidate Obama promised to shut down Gitmo on his first day in office, but President Obama got some minor pushback from Congress and dropped the idea like a hot potato. No principles, no backbone. Whereas Trump never dropped his idiotic border wall, no matter how much pushback he got.
I think Trump was the most transparent and open President I can remember, possibly going back to 1800. You always knew where he stood. Doesn't make him good, but it did upset the establishment, and he would have been my choice if I had been the tiebreaker, for that reason alone.
By tradition, Congress takes up the major policy proposals that a victorious President campaigned on. After Trump was elected, the Senate developed a bipartisan bill that would (1) build the wall, (2) restrict family reunification, (3) eliminate (or restrict, I forget which) the diversity lottery, and (4) write DACA into law. Trump could have supported this bill, and claimed all four provisions as victories for him. (Trump wasn't a fan of DACA, but his biggest complaint was that Obama had exceeded his authority by implementing it as an executive order rather than getting it through Congress.) Instead, Trump refused to support the bill unless it reduced immigration quotas, something that Trump hadn't campaigned on, at least not consistently, and the bill died.
I don't understand how you can claim that “You always knew where [Trump] stood.” When Trump took office, I thought he was committed to building his wall. I now know that I was wrong, but only because Trump didn't build the wall, not because he was “transparent and open” about where he stood. I suspect that the Senators who signed onto the bipartisan bill were equally in the dark about where Trump stood. Why would they have put together the bill if they had known that Trump wouldn't support it?
Nobody wants you to do any sort of public genuflecting. Well ok, I mean we want you to but we don't expect you to.
We do expect you to stop believing the lie. When Muller's report came out, Democrats shrugged and were like, well, I guess that's that. (We complained about Barr and others mischaracterizing the report, but not the report itself... except for the part where Muller demurred from actually recommending charges for silly reasons. That aside, we accepted the outcome.)
Please do us the same favor.
Stop believing what "lie"?
You need to define exactly what faith you are demanding people adhere to, here.
Also, since you brought it up, exactly what charges do you think the Weissmann Report should have produced against whom?
Really, have you been living in a bubble that you just now emerged from and decided to comment on a Volokh post that you don't understand?
As a favor to you and similarly-situated hermits, the lie that Trump and his cult have been promoting these last 18 months is that the will of the people was thwarted in the 2020 presidential election due to nefarious actions taken by Trump's enemies.
Also since you seem to have memory holes: Muller made it clear that he believed Trump to be guilty of obstruction of justice. He avoided saying so directly due to various institutional norms that he declined to violate.
There were nefarious actions done by the likes of Kevin Clinemsith, Peter Strzok, and Michael Sussman.
There have been so many claims about what, exactly, was a lie that it needs to be cleared up a lot. Something you failed to do.
Are you saying the will of the people was thwarted, but not by Trump's enemies?
And no, no sane person would consider anything in the Weissmann report to be evidence that Trump committed obstruction of justice, which is why even the rabid partisans writing the report were unwilling to say so.
Of course, other insane partisans can always be counted on to make up their own stories and spread then as "truth" - that they then demand other others bow down and adhere to.
Which brings us back to the beginning.
"That aside, we accepted the outcome"
YOU did not have any say in the matter.
You really don't like me, do you?
"We do expect you to stop believing the lie. When Muller's report came out, Democrats shrugged and were like, well, I guess that's that."
"Seventy-two percent (72%) of Democrats believe it’s likely the 2016 election outcome was changed by Russian interference"
https://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/april_2022/democrats_still_believe_russia_changed_2016_election
That is from about 2 months ago.
Just to clarify how they accepted it.
That's an opinion, one I disagree with. In contrast, Trump is claiming as a matter of fact that he lost because illegal votes were cast. That is, as Barr reminded us, bullshit.
Seventy-two percent (72%) of Democrats believe it’s likely the 2016 election outcome was changed by Russian interference
This is so stupid I can't believe you actually said it. It would be like saying
Eighty-eight percent (88%) of Republicans believe it's likely the 2008 election outcome was changed by the onset of the Great Recession
and comparing it to Trump's big lie. Every loser in the history of elections has complained about the events leading up to the election. But when the election happens and the votes are counted, that's it! You can Wednesday-morning quarterback and bellyache all you want... after you've conceded. You can even call the election "stolen." Stolen by the circumstances, stolen by the process, stolen by the media, stolen by the opposition, even stolen by the courts. Every loser does. But they accept the outcome of the vote. The (legal) vote is determinative, no matter what it was influenced by.
No, that's the vast majority of Democrats saying they do not believe Trump was legitimately elected. Perhaps led on by the loser of the 2016 election claiming it was "stolen" from her.
That's not accepting the outcome of the election. And it would take an idiot to claim it was. No, playing word games about accepting the outcome of the election as legitimate vs accepting the outcome of the vote as legitimate do not help your foolish position - they just make you look like more of an idiot.
Uh, well, you're clearly full of shit. The question was not "Do you believe Trump was legitimately elected." If that were the question, that would've been the question.
I wonder if you're actually a Democratic plant... making posts so inane that no one would want to be associated with them. It's possible that you're my shadow account that I use to make dumb posts to reply to, so that I look smart and Republicans look retarded.
"Every loser in the history of elections has complained about the events leading up to the election. But when the election happens and the votes are counted, that's it! You can Wednesday-morning quarterback and bellyache all you want... after you've conceded."
HILLARY was calling it stolen for years afterwards.
And to claim "Democrats shrugged and were like, well, I guess that's that.", it's nice to note how much they ACTUALLY did that. And that answer is "Well, not much at all"
Hillary. Conceded. Right. After. The. Election.
Yeah, after she conceded. The very next sentence in my quote that you cut off was "You can even call it stolen." Trump can call the election "stolen" all he wants. That's not the problem, as long as he admits that the voters actually voted for Biden. Hillary admitted that the voters voted for Trump, she just thinks they wouldn't have but for various factors like Comey's meddling and Putin's interference.
Saying "Russia interfered and Trump is illegitimate" --- which she has specifically said --- is not conceding.
You're right. Saying "I concede the election to Trump" is conceding, which she did immediately. She never tried to walk that back.
Hillary calling Trump illegitimate is probably less bad than when Trump was calling Obama illigitimate. Hillary's point was just that Trump manipulated people into voting for him with lies, innuendo, and collusion (I mean, pretty par for the course really, people are saying the same about her). Trump was claiming that Obama was actually legally barred from being President.
Anyway, saying things like "stolen" and "illigitimate" is just whining, if you concede that the President was the winner of the election. Nobody was claiming that Obama or Trump didn't actually win. That's the difference. Trump's big lie is that Biden didn't even win!
I disagree, because I think those are contradictory. When Trump — and, I daresay, anyone else — says the election was "stolen," he means that the voters didn't actually vote for Biden. And that absolutely is the problem.
If he wants to engage in playground level insults of Biden, fine. If he wants to use something vague like "illegitimate," whatever. But "stolen" is beyond the pale.
I forgot about this.
49% of GOP voters nationally say they think that ACORN stole the election for President Obama. We found that 52% of Republicans thought that ACORN stole the 2008 election for Obama, so this is a modest decline, but perhaps smaller than might have been expected given that ACORN doesn't exist anymore.
That's actually not that much less traction than the big lie is getting. I know that they thought 1992 was stolen (by Perot, although Bush wasn't particularly popular even within his own party). Was 1996 purportedly stolen as well? Maybe this is more of a chronic disease than I realized. Not sure if that's good or bad.
Bob Dole pressed dual attacks Friday on the news media for trying to "steal" the election and President Clinton for violating the public trust. "Where is the outrage in America?" he bellowed over and over. "Where is the outrage?"
Of the Democrats, Dole said, "If they weren’t getting propped up by the media every day, this election would have been over two weeks ago."
The Republican presidential nominee angrily upbraided the media for paying insufficient attention to Clinton’s acceptance of foreign campaign contributions and the White House collection of FBI files on prominent Republicans.
"We have the president of the United States sitting down there with 900 FBI files. Might be one of yours, might be one of yours," he thundered to a noisy, overflow rally in Houston’s downtown Wortham Center theatre.
I am personally convinced that the election was the most corrupt since 1960, if not 1876.
Convinced by what? The van loads of phony ballots that showed up at 2 AM?
I mean, the claims are fucking ridiculous.
This would be easier to believe if the committee wasn't Nancy Pelosi's personal fan club, and they hadn't been caught changing evidence.
Prof. Somin has a pathological hatred for Donald Trump, which he repeatedly demonstrated here during the ludicrous impeachment hearings, where he repeatedly cheered every denial of due process. And he continues the trend here.
In the 233-year history of Congress, there have been tens of thousands of committees and subcommittees, but this is the first one where one party chose all the members. This is the first where the majority refused to seat the minority's chosen members. There will be no cross-examination of witnesses, no minority report to challenge the predetermined narrative. It is by appearance and by design a show trial, whose purpose is not to find out what happened on January 6, but, as Somin all but concedes, to condemn Donald Trump. It is essentially his third impeachment trial.
One party chose all the members because the other party threw a tantrum and said that if they couldn't sabotage the committee directly then they wouldn't participate at all, allowing people like FD Wolf to make bad faith arguments.
The lack of Republicans on the committee is purely on the Republicans. It's a cynical and pathetic attempt to delegitimize it, and only really gullible people like FD Wolf accept that as an argument.
Where the supposed 'sabotage' consisted of nothing but the minority actually getting to pick people the majority didn't want.
This is such total bull shit I have a hard time believing you're serious. The purpose of the minority members isn't to be who the majority wants, it's to be who the MINORITY wants.
They could have given the Republicans every member they wanted, and the worst, the absolute worst, that would have happened, is that some questions would have been asked that they didn't want asked.
When they decided the Republicans couldn't pick their own members, they took the committee's credibility and nuked it from orbit. No rationalization you can come up with can change that.
The sabotage consisted of trying to pick, in bad faith, people who had conflicts of interest because they were aligned with the insurrectionists. The GOP named 5 people. Pelosi accepted three of them. Surely among the 200+ members of the GOP caucus in the House, the GOP could have found two others if it wanted to participate.
That is just another way of saying that they picked people the Democrats didn't like. But the majority doesn't get to pick the minority members of a committee. I can't understand how you're having trouble understanding that.
The minority picks the minority members. Period, end of story.
They should have allowed Republicans who accept as fact that Biden won fair and square, but not the Josh Jordon's of the world.
Sigh.
The minority party picks the minority members. Once the majority party gets to decide what members it wants (and the ones it doesn't), it ceases to actually be bipartisan.
The problem is, as always you're a passionate defender of what you imagine the law to be, rather than what it is. In fact, Pelosi gets to pick 100% of the members of the committee. She is required to consult with the Republicans first, but she makes the decisions. Here's the actual language of the resolution establishing the committee:
Now, is it custom that the minority's recommendations are approved? Yes. Is it custom that the minority recommends people who are potential targets of the committee? No.
And is it the price of rejecting the minority's choices, that the minority doesn't grant the legitimacy of the committee?
Yes.
No, Brett, you're lying. They never accepted the legitimacy of the committee, and would not have done so under any circumstances unless it had been filled solely with members of the Asshole Caucus.
(Cawthorn, MTG, Jordan, Banks, Gohmert, Gosar, Massie, Boebert, Biggs, etc.)
The claim that Jordan and Banks being rejected was the problem is a pretext. You know it, and I know it.
Maybe the Democrats should've accepted those members on the committee then.
Instead, they chose to make it a pseudo one-party affair.
Nope. That was 100% McCarthy. Pelosi initially put 4 Republicans on the committee, and allowed McCarthy to name two more.¹ He simply refused to do that, and then pulled three of the ones he had named off. (Kinzinger was then added by Pelosi after that.)
¹The mathematically inclined will note that this adds up to 6, even though the organizing resolution only mentioned 5 minority members. Pelosi put Cheney on there without taking up one of McCarthy's 5 slots. If McCarthy hadn't pulled his shenanigans, there'd have been 6 Republicans on the panel.
Sorry David,
There were clear and present norms that the minority leaders get to choose the minority members on the committee. Not just this committee but all the other committees.
Once Pelosi tried to pull the power play that she could reject whoever she wanted, it was basically a default option that McCarthy would have to pull everyone. Because if Pelosi did it there, and the GOP didn't say "no", Pelosi could do it anywhere and dictate to the GOP which members she wanted on which committees and which couldn't be on other committees. The minority leadership wouldn't have the capability to put its own members where it wanted.
Pelosi went nuclear with regards to the standard operating procedures. If McCarthy tried pulling the same stunt she did, rejecting qualified members on the committee, she would have had to automatically have pulled everyone. Otherwise she would have lost one of the major advantages of leadership...deciding who goes on what committee.
Understanding this is critical.
I really hope the Oliver Stone take on this whole sorry affair is called Clear and Present Norms.
No. Actually. What would have happened is that the various GOP assholes who would have been on the committee would have disrupted its proceedings, spread all kinds of lies, and generally poisoned the whole thing.
You think Jacketless Jim Jordan had any interest in a serious inquiry.
How DARE anybody who does not agree with a narrative have any say in anything?
"Why weren't any members of Al Qaeda on the 9/11 commission?"
Probably because none of them were members of Congress, I'm guessing.
You're guessing wrong; none of the members of the commission were members of Congress.
Technically speaking, this isn't quite true.
Tim Roemer was a Congressman from Indiana's third district who served until January 2003. However, he appears to have been appointed to the 9-11 commission in 2002. So there may be some overlap there.
He was named to the commission on December 11, 2002, which was after the November elections in which he didn't run for reelection. He obviously stayed in Congress until January 3, 2003, but the commission didn't actually start hearings until March 2003.
So while his formal membership on the commission technically overlapped by several weeks with his service in Congress, it was only after they knew he was leaving office that he was appointed and he didn't work on both simultaneously.
"So while his formal membership on the commission technically overlapped by several weeks with his service in Congress,"
Looks like there was a Congressman on the committee....
Just another way of rephrasing what I said, that "the worst, the absolute worst, that would have happened, is that some questions would have been asked that they didn't want asked."
Yep.
Can you imagine? A committee that actually investigated everything about January 6th? Like why Pelosi didn't take the multiple offers of National Guard support?
Pelosi did not take multiple offers of National Guard support because Pelosi was (and is) not in the chain of command for the National Guard and thus has no say in whether the National Guard did anything. Pelosi is also not responsible for any other decision relating to Capitol security. Why do you feel the need to lie in this way?
You don't appoint to a committee people who might reasonably be of interest to the committee. I would have thought this was obvious. Clearly not.
You don't, as the majority, get to tell the minority who they can appoint, and then demand that they accord the resulting committee any legitimacy. I would have though this was obvious.
Clearly not.
If you as the minority propose as members of the committee people you know are going to be subjects in the committee's investigation., you've renounced your rights to appointments. McCarthy could have nominated any number of representatives who would be suitable - instead he nominated people like the pedo-defender Gym Jordan and a couple of others known to have been involved at least tangentially in 1/6, and then threw his toys out of the pram when they weren't accepted - as indeed they shouldn't have been.
You remind me of a friend who insisted that he was not a kneejerk GOP supporter because he'd criticised Republicans as well as Democrats. The Republicans he'd criticised? Kinzinger and Cheney. He was arguing in bad faith and so are you.
Only Republicans play politics, right? Democrats just want to do the right thing. What an infantile view you have.
What the hell does Nancy Pelosi care if Jim Jordan is on the committee? What can he do? In 231 years, is he really the first member of Congress too objectionable to be allowed on a committee?
She did what she did for the express purpose of forcing the Republicans to do exactly what they did: boycott the committee. The Democrats would have (rightly) done the exact same thing.
But what is yet another centuries-old precedent chucked out the window in furtherance of the noble goal of smearing Trump? Now there's a new precedent, and we can look forward to Democrats whining and crying, "but THAT was different!" when their members are excluded from committees next year.
What the hell does Kevin McCarthy care if Jim Jordan is on the committee?
I doubt he much does, but the principle of allowing the minority party to seat the members of its choice, a principle that has endured 230+ years, is important.
People of all political views should want the minority party to have rights in the House. Why even allow members of the minority on any committee? During the Trump administration we heard so much caterwauling about the decline of "institutional norms". Where are those concerns now? The congressional Democrats of late have done a lot of jettisoning of ancient precedents (see, e.g., dropping filibuster for judicial nominees) and are shocked when their actions come back to bite them in the ass (Justice Barrett.)
Somebody has to say "enough".
I am going to go out on a limb and guess that you don't actually have the foggiest idea how it worked in 1792.
And again: three of the people McCarthy named were appointed by Pelosi.
And two others were rejected. That was a violation of the standard norms. Standard norms were the minority party picks the minority members
McCarthy didn't really have another option than pulling everyone once Pelosi rejected the norms.
Sure he did: naming two replacements.
By "naming replacements", McCarthy would've have given de facto control to Pelosi over who got to sit on what committees.
No party leadership is going to allow that. It just wouldn't happen, not if they want to remain party leadership.
Pelosi has both de facto and de jure control over who gets to sit on what committees. The American people gave her that power when they gave Democrats control over the House. (Well, that and when the Democratic caucus chose her as Speaker.)
Please stop playing dumb. McCarthy appointed these people knowing that they'd be rejected. There was no reason to pick them otherwise; Jordan's only actual skill is not noticing sexual abuse when people tell him about it. If he was worried that Pelosi rejecting his picks would undermine him, he'd have either privately consulted with her first, before naming his picks, or he'd just not have picked people that everyone on the planet knew were unacceptable.
For a further explanation....
You need to understand how party committees and memberships work. Each party essentially controls its own membership for the committees. In theory they just "recommend" people, but in practice the recommendations are almost always followed. In this way, the leadership can keep good coordination and control over its interests in the various committees. Congressmen who have particular interests or skill in certain areas are placed there. And the party can generally be productive and effective.
But let's imagine a different situation. Let's imagine a situation where the House Speaker gets to decide where everyone goes. In such a situation is would be advantageous to put your own party members where they are best suited. But it would be politically advantageous to put the other party's members where they are LEAST useful. Keen financial scholars in the opposition party are removed from the finance committee. Opposition congressmen who don't share your desired foreign policy are removed from the foreign affairs committee. Etc, etc. All combined, it would help to destroy the effectiveness of the opposition party, by putting all their people in the worst positions possible to make them least effective.
Unsurprisingly, the opposition knows this. That's why the current norms are in place. And if someone tried to adjust the norms (as described above), the only recourse is for the party as a whole to reject such an adjustment. To reject such "false" committee appointments as a party as a whole. It's the only realistic recourse to have the party survive.
By "rejecting" two of the committee members proposed, Pelosi essentially tried to say "I get to decide who goes on this committee." The GOP responded in the only way that logically made sense. By refusing all appointments if they couldn't appoint their own members. The Democrats would've done the same in the opposition situation. It's basic survival of the party. And a party that fails to defend its rights in such a manner doesn't exist for long.
"Pelosi has both de facto and de jure control over who gets to sit on what committees. "
And she chose to make this a psuedo one-party committee. She has that power. And she exercised it.
Once again: McCarthy, not Pelosi, made that choice. No matter how many times you try to deflect, McCarthy is the one who made that call. (And, of course, it is still a two-party committee. Kinzinger and Cheney do not cease to be Republicans just because they do not like Donald Trump.)
What you are ignoring in your didactic lecture of things I already know is that naming Jordan and Banks was the equivalent of "putting all their people in the worst positions possible to make them least effective." McCarthy named them in bad faith.
Regardless of why McCarthy named them, by having Pelosi summarily rejecting them, she indicated it would not be a fair committee
Rejecting someone because they think Biden wasn't elected fair and square does not make it an unfair committee (see my comment below on the 9/11 analogy).
I don't think the norm would have prevented rejecting the minority party's selection to a 9/11 committee who believed it was an inside job.
This is a much more realistic analogy than my Al Qaeda example. The purpose of the 9/11 commission was to investigate the causes, failures, etc. that led to 9/11. Putting someone on there who claimed the whole thing was a hoax — controlled demolitions of WTC by the CIA, no plane hit the Pentagon, etc. — would not have facilitated the commission's work. Do you want groupthink? No. Do you want crazy (or malicious)? Also no.
I buy your rational ignorance arguments for many issues but I think really high salience arguments like this are different.
Here, it's more that failing to agree with these hugely salient issues results in ostracism or seriously strained relationships. This isn't just true of the big lie, you could say the same thing about eg believing Roe was rightly decided (and that you couldn't reasonably reach the other conclusion). I've seen (and im sure you have as well) even law profs shift their views on these issues when they become emotionally salient enough to their peers.
Few ppl are willing to follow even the evidence they are aware of if it means sacrificing friends or lovers.
I doubt that the House committee hearings are going to persuade anyone who is predisposed toward Trump, however compelling the evidence of his culpability is.
There is, however, a body uniquely suited to determine what should be done about Trump's misconduct. It will be composed of twelve men and women, good and true (with an appropriate number of alternates), from the District of Columbia. The sooner, the better.
The House hearing may be great theater for some, BUT the only real question is whether AG Garland has the cojones to prosecute now. The sooner the better.
Sure. Pursue banana republic stability. Good idea.
The GOP threw that out the window when they nominated a grifter narcissist with zero interest in, or understanding of, the operation of a democratic republic.
I know. It's the fault of the party you don't like for electing somebody you do not like. The GOP created the desire for a banana republic by...not listening to their opposition who used the FBI to spy on the sitting President over, literally, a made up lie.
I'd buy "Well, Trump was uniquely evil" if Democrats hadn't ALSO claimed that McCain and Romney were ALSO uniquely evil.
If everybody is uniquely evil, then nobody is.
The charge that the Democrats used the FBI to spy over a made up lie is bullshit (note that Durham has found no such thing). However, I agree with the claim that the Democrats are guilty of crying wolf over McCain and Romney and the whole country got eaten by the actual wolf (Trump).
"The charge that the Democrats used the FBI to spy over a made up lie is bullshit (note that Durham has found no such thing). "
He found specifically that.
It's just that the FBI were not patsies. They were 100% in on it. Hillary invented, out of thin air, the Alfa bank connection which was the lynchpin for the entire claim that Trump owed Russia money and was doing their bidding.
And you're aware that Trump was, arguably, the least conservative Republican to ever run for office, right?
All Durham has said is that Clinton approved leaking to the press a dubious story that linked trump with Alfa bank. That's not anything close to the Democrats using the FBI to spy.
Given that the alleged link --- that did not exist --- and a dossier that was utterly false were major parts of the FISA warrants (that the FBI also lied in) which gave authority to do the spying in the first place...it is reality. Sorry.
Durham has not validated this claim.
Some on, it's already established that the FBI committed a fraud on the FISA court. For instance, they contacted one of Steele's sources, and asked about the dossier. The source told them it was a steaming heap.
They didn't mention that to the court, just said the source seemed credible.
Firstly, please provide a citation for your detailed claim about Steele's source. Secondly, assuming you are correct, Durham has not validated that constitutes a fraud on the FISA court that amounts to the FBI spying on Trump.
"They made up a lie."
"No no no. They leaked to the press a dubious story."
Sorry, but wrong again. Hillary did not invent the Alfa bank connection. Her campaign did help spread the story around — oh, my god! A campaign said negative things about the other campaign! Hillary was so clever to invent that tactic! — but it came from independent researchers.
Not only was that not "the lynchpin" for the claim that Trump was doing Russia's bidding, but it came months after the FBI opened its investigation of Trump and Russia.
"Hillary did not invent the Alfa bank connection."
Yeah, she did. Her campaign --- thus, her --- 100% DID do that.
"Not only was that not "the lynchpin" for the claim that Trump was doing Russia's bidding, but it came months after the FBI opened its investigation of Trump and Russia."
The FBI used the dossier --- also provided by her --- to justify it. THis Alfa bank was a key part of it.
There was NEVER any "there" there. Literally nothing.
1) No, her campaign did not. (How on earth would her campaign have had any idea about DNS lookups of Alfa bank?) Again: independent researchers came up with this. Hillary's campaign simply helped disseminate the story.
2) The FBI did not use the dossier to justify the investigation. The FBI opened Crossfire Hurricane before the dossier even existed, let alone was in the FBI's hands.
3) The claim that there was an electronic connection between Alfa Bank and the Trump Organization was not a "key part of" anything; it wasn't in the dossier at all.
"(How on earth would her campaign have had any idea about DNS lookups of Alfa bank?)"
I guess you don't follow the news. They compromised somebody doing IT work for the federal government, who abused their access to record network data from the White House.
Sigh. No, Brett, that's not what happened. Not even a little tiny bit.
Nor, because you don't understand anything, do you not understand that even if you had understood correctly the Durham thing, would it be relevant to anything.
1) Nobody "abused their access."
2) Nobody was "compromised."
3) The Alfa Bank story has nothing to do with the White House.
4) Trump wasn't even in the White House at the time.
When the next one comes along, you'll say that you were crying wolf over Trump and the new guy is the actual wolf.
No, I won't. I objected to the characterizations of McCain and Romney (and even Bush43!). Even Cruz isn't Trump.
I believe you're sincere. Trump is much better than those horrific neocons, in my opinion. Why do you think they're better?
Well, they're not sociopaths, for one thing. They care about the country. They don't believe in burning the country to the ground if they can't have it. They are not utterly shameless, incredibly disloyal liars with no redeeming characteristics of any sort. They're not incredibly stupid. Did they always make good decisions? Of course not. Were they paragons of virtue? No, of course not; they're politicians. But they're ordinary politicians, not would-be caudillos. I am quite certain none of them would have thought, "We shouldn't having covid testing because that would make me look bad."
They won't try to steal an election, thus undermining a lynchpin of democracy, because they are babies who can't stand losing.
DN - Respectfully, I wasn't asking you. But I also dislike Trump's childishness and massive ego, though there are aspects I like about him. And while I think he was attempting to use all "legal" or Constitutional means, understanding the Constitution or any legal matters isn't his strong suit either even among a field of politicians where that's the norm.
Josh - Ok. But, that didn't happen until 2020 and I assume your opinion predates that.
We have known since the early 1970s that Trump is an unqualified man-baby. In response to being sued for racial discrimination in housing, Trump hired Rou Cohn who taught him to respond to any charge with a barrage of lies and accusations (witch hunt!). And Trump has done so ever since. The only question was whether it would manifest itself as merely pettiness (I had a bigger inaugural crowd than Obama) or an attack on democracy. Now we know. Shame on us if we don't stop it from happening again.
I would agree that there is a body uniquely suited to determine whether they hold Trump responsible for undermining democracy. That group is called the American people, and, if not thwarted by the shady dealings of the Democratic Party, that group will have its say in 2024 (assuming that Trump runs, of course).
I have a hard time believing you're this eager for a civil war.
You do not put the leader of the opposition in jail unless you have a case against him the opposition finds persuasive.
So you're saying that Trump should only be indicted if Trump supporters agree he should be indicted. Sheesh.
Pretty much. If your case can only persuade your own political allies, it's a crappy case, and you shouldn't act on it.
Contrast this with Brett's argument about the Sussman prosecution, in which having even a single Democrat on the jury meant the whole thing was hopelessly tainted.
that kinda depends on whether the opposition is operating in good faith. which hasn't been the case for a while.
Oh bullshit.
Look. If one thing is 100% clear, from this comment thread and elsewhere, it is that Trump cultists, very much including you, will never, under any circumstances, accept that Trump is guilty of any sort of serious misconduct. No matter the evidence. He was right, you know, about that 5th Ave business, at least as far as his followers are concerned.
So what you are saying is that he automatically gets off, no matter what.
What we're saying....if you want to listen...is that it's less likely to convince people if the commission is made up basically of one party.
To use an analogy, it's like why we have a prosecution and a defense. So both sides of the story are told. If there's just a prosecution, but the defense is told "you're not allowed to speak"...sometimes it's less convincing.
Setting aside the telling analogy of Republicans to "the defense," the defense wasn't told that it wasn't allowed to speak. The defense was told that its chosen lawyer was disqualified because of a conflict of interest. That in fact happens from time to time in a trial.
When that happens, a defendant can, I suppose, pout and refuse to participate in the trial, but in that case we blame the defendant for that choice; we don't blame the judge.
It is less convincing, but if there are people like BB who cannot ever be convinced, you can't give them a veto just because they're pathologically be-culted.
Who cares about the commission? The courts, the states, the VP, Congress, the AG, the audits, even his family has said that Trump was lying and tried to stay in power anyway. But the cult will never believe it. If the commission had had all of Kevin's choices on it, you still would have dismissed it as political. Even when he's indicted by a neutral grand jury, you're not going to believe it. There's literally nothing, until you die and go to hell, that's going to convince you. So why try? Better to rub your noses in it as forcefully as possible than keep trying to convince you of something you've already decided never to believe.
"There's literally nothing, until you die and go to hell, that's going to convince you"
This reminds me of the joke of a husband-and-wife MAGAT pair, otherwise decent folks, who are killed in a car crash and go up to the Pearly Gates. They are greeted by God himself - the angel is on a break - and God asks them whether they have any questions.
The husband asks, "the 2020 election, Trump really won, right?" and God says, "no, it was a generally fair election and Biden was the rightful winner".
The husband turns to his wife and mutters, "this goes higher than we thought".
Bellmore, if I were you, saying stuff like this?:
But what he did NOT do is order an attack on the Capitol, and that's what the Democrats are trying to pin on him, so that they can invoke Section 3 against him, and his allies.
I would spend as much time as possible watching CNN and MSNBC, to see what counter-evidence might turn up. And I sure would not be ignoring the select committee hearings.
Hoo boy the huckleberry is gonna be hip deep on this one. I see the usual suspects are already chiming in…
Aren’t you guys pissed about the 250 million Trump raised between Election Day and J6? That he used to pay off himself, Mark Meadows, Paul Manafort and others? This is the kind of this that got Bannon in hot water.
Is being “detached from reality” a defense to wire fraud?
Not familiar with the Statute. Gotta link to the Indictment??
Sure:
https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/press-release/file/1306611/download
Vellly Intellesting,
I must have Sleepy Joe's Disease, because I thought you were referring to "45",
Let me know when DJT's indicted.
Probably right around when Hunter Biden is...
Frank
I fear you may be sleeping for a long time. But, you probably can’t post while you’re sleeping (right?) so…. I say go for it.
Thanks to Prof. Somin for breaking the cone of silence regarding these hearings. It’ll be interesting, in a morbid sort of way, to see how the denizens here respond. Is “unreachable” the new “deplorable”?
One would think the proprietor might have something to say, having been closely linked to the likes of Dr. Eastman, but I guess he’s busy. You have no idea how long it takes to make those slippery slope charts!!!
I'm more annoyed the Dems spent my hard earned money putting this circus on prime time tv to try to distract the sheep from the terrible state of the country than Trump reenacting the sore losers who refused to accept the 2016 and 2000 elections.
This again? Gore and Clinton immediately accepted the results and conceded. Gore quite graciously so, given the odiousness of the Supreme Court decision in that case.
By accepted do you mean litigated until they were slapped down by the supreme court in Gore's case or tried to literally throw the winner out on multiple occasions through phony baloney impeachments in clinton's case and then did everything in their power to undermine confidence in the election system?
The only real difference in these three 'coups' is that the first two were much more elaborate and the media cooperated in spinning it.
Litigating until the end of the litigation is about as legitimate as it gets. And actually, Gore dropped the case. Technically it was a remand, and he could have asked the Florida Supreme Court for an extension of the deadline. He decided, for the sake of the country, that enough was enough. The fact that you can even consider comparing Gore to Trump is proof of your utter depravity. (Keep in mind, Gore went on to play the role of Pence in the certification!)
I have no idea what the other things you're talking about are. (Clinton's phony impeachments, huh?) Paranoid delusions is my best guess.
Clinton was filing motions in court trying to "overturn" the 2016 election on the same day the Electoral College met.
Incidentally, Nixon was doing the same thing in 1960.
And "for the sake of the country" resulted in more than 80% of Democrats claiming that Bush was not the legitimate president, according to polls take after the election. That's real accepting of the election results there, buddy.
This is certainly true in a way that isn't. Hillary Clinton immediately conceded, and never tried to "overturn" anything.
Supported both impeachments and pushed the Russia stole the election for trump myth at every opportunity. Sure sounds like someone who's accepted a legitimate president to me!
Um, setting aside that Hillary Clinton played no role in the impeachments, one can only impeach someone who was elected. Supporting the impeachments shows that in fact she agrees that he was.
More importantly, impeachment is not overturning an election. Impeaching Trump would've made Pence, not Hillary, the president.
You've simply moved the goalposts from "Hillary tried to overturn the election" to "Hillary said mean things about Trump."
And "for the sake of the country" resulted in more than 80% of Democrats claiming that Bush was not the legitimate president, according to polls take after the election.
Yeah, Democrats were pissed off, as you might imagine. So, just think if Gore had been the asshole that Trump is, and tried to fuel that fire rather than stamp it out. Gore did everything he could to convince Democrats to let it go. And they did... eventually. At least we weren't talking about civil war then like we are now.
You said 'immediately'. In what way is going all the way up to the Supreme Court 'immediate'? Also you want me to give Gore credit for finally losing after he ran out of options? Thats no better than trump. And obviously the Dems played sore loser again in 2016 and did everything to cast doubt on the hallowed election system you guys suddenly believe is beyond reproach in 2020.
Hillary, of course, never went to the Supreme Court, or to any court. Presuming that you're only talking about Gore, he immediately conceded after Bush was declared the winner. Before the court cases were final, there was no winner yet.
No, I'm pretty sure that not lying, and not filing frivolous lawsuits, and not not conceding even after those frivolous lawsuits were tossed out of court, is better than Trump.
Bush v Gore was decided on Dec 12th. Gore conceded as far as I can tell on Dec 13th. Wow he had such humility and foresight that it traveled back in time! Also again you keep using the words 'immediately conceded' for a lengthy slugfest all the way up the highest court in the land I don't think it means what you think it means. At this point your creative 'reinterpretation' of events borders on outright lying.
And even if the date for the final SC decision was a little bit before Gore's concession that doesn't change the fact that he took the fight all the way up there and only gave up when it was clear he had no chance. Do you think he wouldn't have pressed forward if he had an ounce of a possibility of eking out a win?
Ok oh my god the desperados are out in force tonight!
Do you think he wouldn't have pressed forward if he had an ounce of a possibility of eking out a win?
Yes, because he could've pressed forward. Instead he dropped the case. It was a remand to the Florida Supreme Court to decide whether the deadline should be extended. Gore decided not to keep litigating, and conceded instead.
No one would have been particularly upset if Trump had conceded immediately after his lawsuits were adjudicated. I haven't heard anyone claim that Trump didn't have a right to file suits. Many of them were frivolous, yes, but frivolous lawsuits don't take long to adjudicate, so that wouldn't have mattered that much if he had accepted the outcomes. It's clear now that his purpose in filing the suits wasn't so much to litigate the issues in court as to acquire a talking point: "The courts refused to even hear our cases!"
Maybe you forgot that there was widespread violence at Trump's inauguration.
Somin, you are entirely too confident in your own position.
I believe Biden won. He won a corruptly administered election, but after the Electoral College voted, it was all over, everything that followed was non-discretionary formality.
That said, there were enough dodgy things going on that I can't fault anyone for thinking that Trump would have won an honestly administered election. He was only, IIRC, about 43K votes in 3 states away from victory, after all. And they were 3 states where election administrators decided that they were entitled to change election rules on the fly.
Which is the last thing you would EVER do if you wanted the loser to accept that they'd legitimately lost! So the refusal to accept the election outcome as legitimate is perfectly reasonable and to be expected.
Now, one of Trump's virtues is that he doesn't give up, and any virtue carried too far can become a vice. So he seized upon a really stinky legal theory, and tried to contest the election after it was really over. An election which he had every reason to suppose had been stolen, remember.
Well, really stinky legal theories sometimes win, and after a while we forget that they stank on ice, and pretend they were obviously true. So he wasn't totally irrational in thinking this could work.
Best case he had bad judgement about the merits of the argument. Worst case, he knew it stank, and didn't care.
But what he did NOT do is order an attack on the Capitol, and that's what the Democrats are trying to pin on him, so that they can invoke Section 3 against him, and his allies.
Do you have any conception how dangerous it will be to the stability of our democracy if we start dictating election outcomes by disqualifying candidates on basis their supporters don't view as legitimate? Sure, the Republicans got away with that during Reconstruction; After winning a bloody war, they got away with it.
In peace time? No, that's lighting incendiary grenades while standing in a pool of rocket fuel. Do NOT encourage this!
Thanks for that. Your ability to cut through the BS in well written, well reasoned argument to say what many of us feel but can't articulate is appreciated.
No, Brett. In every state the rules get changed on the fly. This is more Dunning Kruger on your part.
So the refusal to accept the election outcome as legitimate is perfectly reasonable and to be expected.
So it's the Democrats' fault that half or more of the GOP is a bunch of gullible fools, who not only believe Trump's lies, but even send him money.
72% of Democrats STILL think Russia swung the election to Trump in 2016.
They probably did, considering how close it was in swing states, and the disinformation they demonstrably spread. Of course, it was so close that any one of a number of factors swung it. Including the New York Times's slanted reporting in Trump's favor.
You forgot to add a sarcasm tag.
"They probably did"
...and my point is proved. And this is AFTER it was demonstrated that Hillary's campaign invented the entire story out of thin air.
"how close it was in swing states"
Was close in 2020, but stating that there were shenanigans THIS time is beyond the pale. Just noting for posterity.
"disinformation they demonstrably spread"
Specific examples of this are?
"Including the New York Times's slanted reporting in Trump's favor."
*snicker* Yeah, sure.
Trump tried to steal the election.
And Biden actually did?
(well, not him, but his guys)
You've answered Somin's title question (the hearings cannot break through dumbfuckery).
An election which he had every reason to suppose had been stolen, remember.
Bellmore — Trump's own election experts testified this morning. You could have watched it. Their view? Trump had zero reason to suppose the election was stolen. Which they told him. In no uncertain terms, over and over again.
Trump himself did not want to accept that, because he intended to make money saying otherwise. Which he did. Many millions. By lying, not only about the election, but also about his pretend intention to contest the election.
Trump sent out funding appeals, under a fake marketing-named organization—Trump Election Defense Fund—which did not exist. The money he got back he put in a PAC which did not contest the election. It paid cash to some of his loyalist advisers. What happened to many millions remains to be seen. All told, Trump supporters were scammed out of more than $200,000,000.
Why not just watch some other news sources?
I thought a primary purpose of the committee was to guarantee this will not occur again. But the committee failed to look at decisions by the Speaker and Capitol Police were awarded gold medals before the committee every met. How can you award medals before conducting a full investigation of the Capitol Police. That speaks of a predetermined outcome rather than the truth of the events that occurred.
This leads one to the true purpose of the Committee. To prevent Donald Trump from running in 2024. That makes it a purely political creation with political purposes.
And if they do, what a gift to the republican party.
Outraged Trump supporters will never vote for a democrat, and the non-Trump republicans will rally around 'whoever's running'.
The House January 6 committee will not -- indeed, cannot -- prevent Trump from running in 2024. OTOH, the Department of Justice, if Merrick Garland grows a spine, can render Trump ineffectual as a prospective candidate for election to another term. It is exceedingly difficult for someone to run for office after having been indicted, tried, convicted and denied bail pending appeal.
If he's stupid enough to indict Trump, you'll see a civil war that makes the summer of 2020 look like a picnic.
LOL I see the 82nd airborne keyboard division is back in force today. Keep dreaming huckleberry
"82nd airborne keyboard division"
More like the 7th Cavalry.
I think there's about a 50-50 chance that the House Jan 6th committee will declare Trump in violation of Section 3 of the 14th amendment.
"I think there's about a 50-50 chance that the House Jan 6th committee will declare Trump in violation of Section 3 of the 14th amendment."
To what end?
"50-50 chance"
Impresive performance sticking your neck out.
Personally, I think there's a 100% chance TrumpSuckers gonna suck.
I fail to see why I should assert confidence about something I only think quite possible.
"something I only think quite possible."
Again, why would the committee do such a thing. To what end?
And, as you have declared yourself to be a mechanical engineer, from that perspective, what leads you to believe that it is something you think quite possible? As an engineer when considering a proposition about which you have no clue is it appropriate to say that the proposition has a 50% chance of being true or is it appropriate to say that you don't have a clue?
I think that there's about a 50-50 chance that the House Jan 6th committee will declare that the moon is made out of green cheese. I have no idea why they would do such a thing nor what the objective of doing such a thing would be, I only think it quite possible. The best part of this prediction is that if it turns out to not be the case, nobody can accuse me of making a dumb assertion.
"Again, why would the committee do such a thing. To what end?"
Why would a committee consisting almost only of Democrats, and hand picked to consist 100% of people who hate Donald Trump's guts, do something that would disqualify him from holding office? 'Tis a puzzlement. Truly I'm coming up empty here. [/sarc]
"do something that would disqualify him from holding office?" As usual, you're orbiting somewhere out there by the Pluto formally known as a planet. For the committee to declare Trump in violation of Section 3 of the 14th amendment would have no affect on Trump's qualification to hold office. Committees don't get to do that, Genius.
Yeah, but do the Democrats AGREE with you about that? Or do they figure the committee declaring that would give multiple states cover to refuse Trump ballot access?
"Or do they figure the committee declaring that would give multiple states cover to refuse Trump ballot access?"
No.
And I'd add that the Democrats took any hope that Republicans would respect the hearings, set them on fire, and danced on the remains, when they decided that the Republicans would not be permitted to pick their own committee members.
When they did that, it was all over, the committee was irrevocably proven to be a political witch hunt. They didn't need to do that to win every single solitary vote. You realize that, right?
The only purpose of doing that was to prevent embarrassing questions from being asked, and make sure there wasn't a minority report bringing up inconvenient points.
The only purpose of doing that was to prevent embarrassing questions from being asked, and make sure there wasn't a minority report bringing up inconvenient points.
No. It was to keep loudmouthed, disruptive idiots off the committee.
"No. It was to keep loudmouthed, disruptive idiots off the committee."
They have Adam Schiff on it. Spare me.
In doing so, they destroyed the committee's credibility as any sort of neutral arbiter, and turned it into a blatant partisan affair.
Sometimes it's better to keep the "loudmouthed disruptive idiots" if you care about credibility in a charged political matter.
If the Republican's had any integrity none would serve on the committee however more than a few need the theater to stay in office.
if they had been able to choose who sat on the committee it would have been very telling and obligated the party to go along with the show.
I still remember the years leading up to the 2020 election being told over and over that Trump stole the election in 2016. the difference of course is those in power didn't want his opponent in power either and likely were more than secretly happy he won
There are only two Republicans on the committee. One isn't running for reelection so he obviously doesn't need the theater to stay in office. The other was an uncontested leader in the GOP before undertaking this role; it's serving on the committee that is threatening her ability to stay in office.
No, David, Cheney committed political suicide well before this committee was a gleam in the Democrats' eyes, when she voted to impeach Trump.
Instead of theater after 18 month, how about Garland having the cojones to announce prosecution. The sooner the better.
I don't know, Ilya. I think if you're giving a "fair hearing" to this issue it's also important to recognize that the election (at the time) was certainly colored by videos of blatantly partisan activity at polling places, irregularities in reporting from the counting houses, questionable policy changes eroding auditability on ballots (rationalized by COVID), and a literal conspiracy of the media and technical companies to blackhole information critical of Biden.
Some (through similar partisan bias) can immediately discount and dismiss these points, but that's the reality that the opposition witnessed and under such circumstances, it's not a stretch to see how a reasonable person would doubt the results of a tight election or more.
I wasn't around during Nixon's time, but I think the circumstances are more than a little different - a large segment of the population has lost confidence in the results of the system. The sitting President was being told similar stories and narratives. IF one believes the results are fraudulent, which side is the insurrection? Expert opinion has not held its value in recent years. The media has obviously lost any trust the public had for them.
So this isn't a problem that's going to go away through explanation from experts, but by visible change. When a corporation has a material deficiency in its control structure, the answer is to improve controls, pass evidence-based audits, and increase the confidence of stakeholders by demonstrating improvement. Somehow, the leaders and media think that this isn't a valid approach here - that we don't need to improve transparency and auditability. Any attempt to do so is met with cries of racism and disenfranchisement.
I think that focusing on this issue as one where the other side just needs to get in line is a distraction from a serious problem. Regardless of which team you play for, telling one side they're losing when they think they're winning is only going to be sustainable for a few cycles. You gotta do better than telling them they're crazy - you need to improve reporting, improve auditability, improve transparency, improve trust in the process. The more these concerns get dismissed or papered over, the more distrust it sows.
I'm concerned about the events on January 6th, but the hearings in the House are not covering what I feel the problem is - they do appear to be political theater as far as I can tell, and worthless to anyone who cares about the health of democracy.
You're right that this is the fundamental problem. It's a problem that such a large portion of the population isn't savvy enough to see through the lies that they're being fed.
It's not going to be possible to prevent the lies from being told. Look at Arizona. They did 1000 audits, including sham ones by Trump's own people, who still couldn't find anything substantial. (In fact, they found more Biden votes!) But was that enough to convince the true believers? No, because there will always be someone there to tell them the lies that they want to believe.
So I agree 100% with this:
"Regardless of which team you play for, telling one side they're losing when they think they're winning is only going to be sustainable for a few cycles."
But how do you convince the side that's losing that they're actually losing? I'd love to know!
> But how do you convince the side that's losing that they're actually losing? I'd love to know!
Hoping the Dems don't realize they're beating a dead horse. They'll figure it out in November- maybe?
I hope it's dead! It's worth continuing to beat, just to be sure, even if it means one lost midterm. A midterm is a small price to pay for the continuation of American democracy.
Do you know who said this in 2020?
The country needs a strong Republican Party. It's done so much for our country...
Good points. In this case, the "leaders and media" thought it was good to do the exact opposite of what you suggest, and act aggressively to shut down any transparency and all measures to strengthen election integrity. They thought it was a good idea to behave just like people who were either running a cover up or intentionally trying to undermine confidence.
I saw a story recently that in Michigan, Democrat operatives paid petition gatherers off to thwart an election security ballot measure that was expected to pass. This comes right after the FBI arrested the leading candidate for governor on frivolous charged.
Where did you "see this story," Gateway Pundit? OAN?
The closest I can come to it with google is this, which needless to say does not remotely match what you said.
See here. https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/politics/2022/05/10/michigan-campaign-accused-paying-petition-circulators-not-work/9674742002/
Why, are you looking for new ideas or problems to make vanish? You could probably be a fixer of some kind. 😉
But yeah, Google has become pretty useless these days.
"the FBI arrested the leading candidate for governor on frivolous charged"
Except he was not the leading candidate and the charges are not frivolous. If he were the leading candidate, conspirators, smart or stupid, would have waited for him to win the nomination.
There is only one poll on RCP. It shows Ryan Kelley in the lead.
Apparently I misinterpreted something.
“that the election (at the time) was certainly colored by videos of blatantly partisan activity at polling places, irregularities in reporting from the counting houses, questionable policy changes eroding auditability on ballots (rationalized by COVID), and a literal conspiracy of the media and technical companies to blackhole information critical of Biden”
None of that was true. According to Trump’s own people. And the judges he appointed.
GOP: "let's require that postal ballots be counted after walk-in ballots, so that our followers will see vote counts move against Trump and think there's fraud."
GOP supporters: "look, vote counts are moving against Trump so it must be fraud!"
There is a video of Ruby Freeman repeatedly running the same batch of votes through a counting machine.
Is that the same you tube channel where you saw Michelle’s “big swinging dick”?
In the video I linked to you, what do you think was swinging in Michael's pants??
These are your people, Eugene!
These are the people of every Volokh Conspirator.
These guys can no longer claim they don’t know this white, male blog is intentionally a magnet for delusional, broadly bigoted, disaffected white nationalists. Not one Conspirator can avoid this stain and shame.
BCD — A claim debunked this morning on television by a senior Trump election official, who explained exactly what was actually (legitimately) happening. You got lied to. You bought it. Try to catch up.
Why would a senior Trump official authoritatively know what Ruby Freeman was doing running those ballots through over and over??
Did you watch the hearing? Let me guess! Too busy on you tube?
No, there isn't, liar.
And we know there isn't, because if that happened then there would be more votes cast than ballots submitted.
https://thebl.com/politics/georgia-fraud-vote-counter-ruby-freeman-scans-ballots-multiple-times-appears-to-hand-daughter-usb-drive-in-voting-room.html
I'll take "matters that were not raised by attorneys in actual lawsuits" for $100,
Is there a video of the machine completing the count and then adding to the total, or is there a video of the ballots being stuck, pulled out, and being run through again and only when they finally all went through was the total properly counted and added?
So who, exactly, is going to convince them that it was a Big Lie?
The same people who told all of us, for four years, that the Russians stole the 2016 election?
According to the DOJ and Federal Class, it's only a treasonous crime to our Sacred Democracy if you do not believe Democrats win fairly and squarely.
Heck, Biden listens closely to Abrams who STILL has not accepted her defeat in Georgia.
I hope that fat ape dies of COVID.
Charming! This blog has truly cultivated some of the leaders in conservative thought
Whom are you speaking of, Trump or one of the Thomases?
Nope. Trump's senior election staffers will tell them—if you can get them to pay attention. Watch the hearings.
. . . it's also important to recognize that the election (at the time) was certainly colored by videos of blatantly partisan activity at polling places, irregularities in reporting from the counting houses, questionable policy changes eroding auditability on ballots (rationalized by COVID), and a literal conspiracy of the media and technical companies to blackhole information critical of Biden.
Some (through similar partisan bias) can immediately discount and dismiss these points, but that's the reality that the opposition witnessed and under such circumstances, it's not a stretch to see how a reasonable person would doubt the results of a tight election or more.
Caphon — It is a shame you did not watch today's hearing. If you had, you would know that essentially everything you say was taken away by the testimony. Testimony not of partisan Democrats, mind you, but of senior Trump election officials. The committee presentation, backed by Trump team members, debunked all the claims you made. Starting with the notion that it was a close election. To win, Trump needed to overturn three states, each with margins about ten times the largest that ever get overturned in recounts. As one of Trump's election experts said, you would have a better chance betting on Power Ball than hitting that trifecta.
The story so far is that Trump could not possibly have believed he won, because everyone who was not drunk or insane (Giulanni and Kraken lady) on his own team told him he lost, told him it was not close, and told him there was no fraud which could have accounted for any state loss. His own guys—including guys who look for Democrat fraud for a living—told him again and again that he lost, for days, in no uncertain terms. They begged Trump to stop with the Big Lie.
What the committee showed this morning was that Trump kept up with the Big Lie, not because he believed it, but because he intended to make money off it. He duped his loyal followers. Trump said there was an election challenge effort ongoing, when no such effort existed. Trump got loyalists to send millions and millions to a fund with a name which did not even connect to a bank account. The money all went into a PAC, with which Trump paid off his own campaign organizers, and no doubt saved up money to run again.
How can you say the hearings are political theater if you do not even watch them?
First guess - Nancy Pelosi personally picked EVERY member of the committee.
Second guess - Adam Schiff is on the committee.
(is there a prize?)
Did Pelosi pick the Trump Administration officials who testified against him?
Unlike James O'Keefe, the Committee did not provide the uncut video they presented.
A real hearing wouldn't be context snipping quotes or otherwise doctoring evidence.
You refer to it as if it has any credibility.
"How can you say the hearings are political theater"
Is Garland going to prosecute or not?
Otherwise they are just an American Kabuki
The one thing the committee could do to change some minds is to show a smoking gun that he approved of or wouldn't stop the riot after it had started. I highly doubt they have that smoking gun or they would have already revealed it.
It is in the same drawer as Schiff's "absolute proof" of the Russia wet dream.
In the first hearing, which provided a high level overview, we learned that Trump said his supporters, “were doing what they should be doing.” We learned that it was Mike Pence, not Donald Trump, who directed the National Guard to deal with the riot. I don't know why you would expect the Committee to provide more detail than this in their first hearing.
What did we learn about Nancy Pelosi's decisions regarding Capitol Police and the security of the building? Anything??
Once more: Nancy Pelosi had and has no authority to make "decisions regarding Capitol Police."
Well actually she does. It’s a legislative branch agency.
Well, I doublechecked the constitution, and it turns out that Nancy Pelosi is not the legislative branch.
Yup, Speaker of the House is the least relevant cog in the legislative branch.
Ehhh...
So, the Capitol Police answer to the Capitol Police Board. The Capitol Police Board is made up of the House Sergeant at Arms, Senate Sergeant at Arms and the Architect of the Capitol. The House Sergeant at Arms answers to the Speaker.
So, to say Pelosi had "no authority" isn't quite accurate. If she told the House Sergeant at Arms to do something, he should probably listen. They might need one more member.
The Capitol Police ultimately answer to the Capitol Police Board. The voting members of the board are the three people you name. The House Sergeant at Arms does not "answer to" the Speaker; the House Sergeant at Arms answers to the House. The Speaker has a lot of power within the House, obviously. But she does not appoint the Sergeant at Arms, cannot fire him, and of course even if she could he is only one-third of the Board, which does not run the Capitol Police on a day-to-day basis anyway.
In other words, she's several layers removed from the Capitol Police, and at the layer at which she sits, even assuming she can speak for the entire House, she only has a minority say.
Moreover, she has the same role as Mitch McConnell. Why do none of the people mentioning Pelosi ask about McConnell's decisions with respect to 1/6 security?
Sigh...
"The Sergeant–at–Arms is subject to removal by the House or by the Speaker, pursuant to clause 1 of rule II"
"Pursuant to clause 3(a) of rule II, the Sergeant–at–Arms shall, ‘‘maintain order under the direction of the Speaker or other presiding officer.’’(17) The Speaker may direct the Sergeant–at–Arms to present the mace (the symbol of the Authority of the Sergeant–at–Arms) to enforce order in the Chamber."
The Sergeant–at–Arms assists the Speaker in maintaining order in the House galleries"
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/GPO-HPREC-PRECEDENTS-V2/pdf/GPO-HPREC-PRECEDENTS-V2-3-3-3.pdf
The Rs had a chance to participate more fully either with an independent commission or by appointing some members less compromised and disruptive than Banks and Jordan. The Speaker had already accepted McCarthy's other three picks, but he barred them from participating in a fit of pique once Banks and Jordan were defenestrated. Now the Rs have no visibility into the Committee and its killing them.
Are the hearings political? Duh. Maybe we should ask the guy who blurted out the truth about the Benghazi hearings. The real question is are the Committee hearings effective, and I think they have been very effective. The howling on this board is ample evidence of that.
I agree, most of the comments suggest the Committee is hitting a nerve.
The twelve page screed Trump posted in response today might be taken as a sign that someone is worried about the committee's revelations.
What data makes you think they are effective? The ratings?
The focus groups that say that independents are very interested.
"The Rs had a chance to participate more fully either with an independent commission or by appointing some members less compromised and disruptive than Banks and Jordan."
Yes, the minority should participate when they are not permitted to name their members. They should be there solely to give the kangaroo commission a faint patina of legitimacy.
Meh. So you get to attack the Committee as partisan, which you would have done anyway.
Tl;dr everyone is going to keep having this argument until January, when the newly elected House will shut the investigation down. After that, people will keep having this argument for many more years on the internet. Meanwhile, American democracy continues to be broken, and nobody is doing anything about it.
American Democracy can't be changed with a political class that has rigged the system so they get reelected at rates that would make Saddam Hussein blush.
They will continue to ignore the will of the people because there is no accountability to anyone in the Federal Class, political or otherwise.
Re-elected at saddam rates, eh? Did you know he won 99.6% of the vote in 1995?
Incumbency rate in the US is 90%.
The retirement rate keeps it down. Of the ones who actually ran for reelection in 2020, 94.7% won.
Agreed. That is one of the many things that are terribly broken about American Democracy (albeit at least partly a symptom of other problems rather than a problem in and of itself.)
I hope they do not shut the committee down.
Just expand it to investigate ALL domestic terrorism.
Summer 2020 seems like a ripe target.
I've liked Ilya's thoughts on some things, but he's so emotionally blind when it comes to Trump it's unreadable.
These "hearings" are a political sham and by trying to fleece the voters with them instead of owning the mess they've created with the economy the Dems will get blasted in November and the investigations should pivot to where they should -- holding the medical "elite" accountable for the disastrous COVID response.
Delusional, disaffected clingers are among my favorite culture war casualties . . . and the only audience a white, male, right-wing blog seems to want.
I think that the former Presidents refusal to accept defeat as strategy led to January 6th Insurrection and turned many people off to supporting the former President. I think that refusal cost the Republicans the Senate. These hearing will serve to confirm peoples view that they were right to leave Trump. The hearing will confirm for 2016 Trump voter, that leaving him in 2020 was the right choice.
More cheating in GA is what cost both GA Senate seats.
Contrary to what you and your ilk think, allowing black people to vote is not actually "cheating."
You need to think like a racist to understand the Volokh Conspiracy.
The founding fathers, those who built America, rightfully believed blacks to be mentally inferior. Modern day IQ and socioeconomic standing bear that out. Do you think the founders were wrong? If so, why?
Hey David Bernstein! These are your people!!!
Why focus solely on Prof.. Bernstein? Every Volokh Conspirator is responsible for this white, male, bigot-hugging, right-wing nut blog, and every institution that hired a Volokh Conspirator is stained by this flaming shitstorm.
Heck, I'm less enthusiastic about Trump than I used to be. I thought he was a decent President, better than I frankly expected, but his continuing to pursue election challenges after the EC voted really reduced my respect for his judgement.
I still think the nation would have been better off today if he had won, but I'd prefer somebody else be the nominee in 2024.
But there's a hell of a lot of space between my opinion of him and this raving about coups.
You are only "less enthusiastic" about a guy who tried to steal the election.
No, I'm less enthusiastic about a guy who didn't know when to stop contesting an election he thought the other guy had stolen.
I do not anticipate voting for Trump in the 2024 Republican primary, unless the alternatives are all awful. If he gets the nomination? Well, I suppose it's possible that the Democrats might nominate somebody who wasn't worse. Doesn't seem likely at the moment, though.
In other words, you don't accept that Trump tried to steal an election. While you aren't as bat-shit crazy as those who think Biden stole the election, you are far too close.
No, that's true: I don't think it's established that he tried to steal an election. I think it's more analogous to a guy who flatly won't believe his wife sold his favorite car while he was out, and tries to repossess it. He tried to take it, and taking it would have been wrongful, but I don't think he had mens rea, he was not intending to "steal", but only to reclaim something he thought had been stolen.
So he's too fucking insane to be criminally culpable.
That doesn't make him less morally culpable.
And it sure says some bad stuff about you that you're willing to support returning someone you admit to be a nutball who once endangered our republic to office.
Only if the alternative is worse, and sadly, I think the Democrats will gladly puke up a worse candidate.
At this rate, probably one who will start a civil war trying to confiscate guns, or something equally stupidly destructive.
This is you rejecting democracy.
The alternative to a candidate who is a threat to our system is a candidate from a party whose policies you really don't like.
And you'd rather risk burning it all down than lose an election.
Listen to yourself. This is rationalizing *anything* to keep your party in power. This is fascism.
Yes, Sarcastr0, if elected Democrats decide to trash the Constitution and start shitting all over civil liberties they don't like, despite their being explicitly laid out in said Constitution, if that is what you mean by "democracy", I reject democracy. Spit on it, in fact.
I'm a libertarian, (Small "l" because I think the party of that name stopped effectively serving the cause.) not a Democrat. My highest value is human liberty, not making sure that the proverbial two wolves get their mutton dinner.
But it's actually hilarious! Here we are discussing who I'd vote for, and you're accusing me of rejecting democracy. I'm fine with sticking with democracy for now; "Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed." I'm just not going to pledge to stick with democracy even if I'm voted into a concentration camp, or a transient majority decides to send bully boys around door to door.
Trump's not going to burn it down. The moment it got even a little violent he threw it in. He's not like Sanders, who honeymooned in a murderous totalitarian state. Or Schumer, who threatened Justices then walked it back the next day after the message was delivered. Or Biden, who literally talks about nuking Americans if they get uppity. He's just a narcissist who doesn't know when it's time to call it quits. There are plenty of figures in the Democratic party who are worse, and they're more likely to be nominated than anybody who isn't a sociopath, more's the pity.
Mens rea is a legal technicality that should play no role in concluding he is a danger to democracy in a way that no other candidate is.
It's the "in a way that no other candidate is" that has me rolling on the floor. Man, have you ever got a rosy view of the other candidates!
None of them want to take away the vote from the people. But from your screed above, you aren't big on voting, majority rule and democracy.
Thread doesn't seem worth reading and certainly not the OP. The thing I wonder is how anyone believes that elections aren't rife with fraud and cheating. That's like thinking nobody cheats on their taxes. I'm sure Trump would cheat too, if he could. It's been this way since Tammany Hall, and the stakes and incentives only go up and up as we complete the inversion of our founding principles of decentralized government.
Because it's really really hard to do it, in a way that is significant enough to matter, without getting caught.
A guy casting a vote for his dead wife, sure, that's easy and we know happens on occasion. But it's trivial. Any federal election involves hundreds of thousands of votes.
I will never understand why Ilya thought adopting left-wing framing (e.g., "the Big Lie") for use on a right-libertarian blog would be persuasive. Maybe he should stick to mindless rants about foot-voting.
Is this a libertarian blog or a right-wing libertarian blog? And how is a right-wing libertarian blog different from a right-wing blog?
Well, right-wing libertarians generally differ from simple right-wingers in wanting victimless crime laws abolished.
I'm not convinced that it's really really hard to do, though I'm open to evidence. Everywhere you look, people are unhinged and view the political opposition as mortal enemies, the kind of views that would not only justify a puny little thing like election cheating, but might justify or even compel violence and glorify a martyr a la Dietrich Bonhoeffer. See the recent surveys about political violence. Then you have attempts at transparency and election security shut down completely. So no, in that kind of environment I don't think it would be very hard to do.
Everywhere you look, people are unhinged and view the political opposition as mortal enemies.
You want to break up the Union; you are not really an honest broker in these things.
I don't want to do that necessarily. But it is useful to think through carefully and consider why or why not. And, at what cost or under what circumstances would your view be different. Whenever you have a sort of ideological sacred cow, as evidenced by your irrational utterance here, then you know there's kind of a gap in critical thought there.
Surely you would agree in principle (in the abstract), that in some hypothetical scenario, a peaceful separation of polities could be vastly preferable to some bad alternative like mass bloodshed?
You've absolutely advocated positively for breaking it up on this blog. In the past few weeks? You going to make me look it up and prove this thoughtfulness mask is just bullshit?
I've brought it up as topic for discussion. Is that verboten, in your mind? I think I've said that decentralizing government power, devolving it to the states, would alleviate the nation's political ills and gets to the heart of the problem, and at the most extreme end of the spectrum peaceful separation could be preferable to violence.
Decent Reason cover story from yesterday.
Political Violence Escalates in a Fracturing U.S.
https://reason.com/2022/06/13/political-violence-escalates-in-a-fracturing-u-s/
"[T]he U.S. might suffer less pain by decentralizing power and restraining the state's reach so that people need not fear abuse when enemies win office...
...we could dial down tensions by reducing the danger of people being at the mercy of their enemies. We would need to reverse decades of centralization and expansion of government so that people could live by rules and arrangements that don't constitute malicious threats. That is, people should be able to escape governance by those who wish them harm, so they don't feel driven to extreme measures...
There's no clear solution to what appear to be America's own years of lead. But tensions won't simmer down until Americans stop fearing power in the hands of enemies. That won't happen until government is less powerful, less centralized, and less of a dangerous weapon in the hands of those in office."
This you? https://reason.com/volokh/2022/06/09/35-40-of-under-50-respondents-endorse-assassinating-a-politician-who-is-harming-the-country-or-our-democracy/?comments=true#comment-9536662
Instead of all the bloodshed, wailing and gnashing of teeth, just peacefully separate into our member states. They will all get along better then.
You're not just asking questions, you're advocating for something you want.
Until you're not.
Disingenuous coward.
Yes, I was raising that as a topic to discuss, and positing that it would preferable to mass violent bloodshed. Read the context there. What do you think is worse: peaceful separation of polities, or political violence, assassinations, bloodshed, civil wars, etc?
This is the language of advocacy, not the language of 'Just raising the question.'
You don't know why you want to back away from that, but you're doing a pretty clumsy job of it.
As to the 'context' it is just a causal narrative you like; the choice you present just shows your dark world view, not anything else.
What if it was the language of advocacy?
Get over this notion that you're entitled to mark out the limits of legitimate discussion, to take topics and rule them out of bounds.
I just love it when our "betters" tell us to ignore everything we saw on the evening of and the wee morning hours after the Presidential election day of 2020. Watch 2000 Mules and tell me how THAT was legal.
Without even looking at the evidence of fraud we heard the words "Most Secure Election Ever" stated repeatedly. The affidavits of poll-workers setting out the fraud they witnessed were ignored. Laws were changed or ignored by elections officials.
And, magically between the hours of 2 and 4 in the morning, after counting had been stopped in 5 states and most voters had gone to bed, new votes came in by the tens of thousands giving Biden a miraculous win. Amazingly, in counties where 97% of the vote was in with Trump leading by an unbeatable lead, the vote totals suddenly changed to 90% of the vote had been counted and almost all the remaining votes that came in were 100% for Biden. THIS could NOT have happened in a legit election.
Attorneys, who should be the ones for upholding the law no matter whether their preferred outcome is the result, have sold their souls to the devil. I hope inflation and the stock market crash takes away your home, your job, your retirement accounts, your transgender significant other, AND your electric vehicle. Also, I hope you are accused at some point of a crime of hate speech and are forced to suffer a star chamber hearing and go through your own struggle session where you required to speak things you know are not true, but are still sentenced to the maximum sentence.
So, a pox (the monkey pox, even) on all of you that call the election fraud a "Big Lie". Elections have consequences and stolen fake elections have major consequences. Unfortunately, we are all having to suffer from those consequences of YOUR failings.
Bravo. Very well stated.
Lololol
Bill Barr watched 2000 Mules so I don't have to.
I urge you to send a check to Trump's PAC immediately. The Elite Strike Force has expensive work to do.
So you watched the fraud on TV. Got it.
He only legitimately lost if you believe the current rules on whom is eligible to vote are legitimate in the first place. I don't. I think voting should be limited to men with IQs above 100 with a minimum of 3 of 4 grandparents being white Protestants. Those are the people who built America, and those are the ones who should decide how it's run.
This is so perfect. Saving for posterity.
And why only 3/4? Can one be catholic or something? Still white, obvi.
See, we differ on this, in that I think you should be allowed to vote and you don't.
And we have a winner!
Fist, these are not "hearings". They are cheaply produced infomercials just without the hard sell of some cheap exercise equipment of an air fryer.
Second, the only thing that happened on that day was some tourists took pictures of the Capitol building and left when asked. You don't get to call the disorderly part a riot if you are in the media and couldn't type those 4 letters in all of 2020 when covering BLM.
Third, let's hear about the political prisoners being held currently without bail or trial. Now that is actually a controversy and crisis worthy of a Congressional investigation.
Fourth, let's not for one moment pretend that these people who showed up to protest in DC just did so for no reason whatsoever. The media, in league with the tech companies and democrat party, decided to censor any and all discourse about election irregularities making it look shady as hell. And lets not for another minute forget the democrats are known for stuffing ballot boxes in cities like Philadelphia. People who have a grievance tend to take to the streets (or at least that is what the left was willing to sell us when BLM matter did it) and I doubt the protest on that day would have happened at all if it were not for the oppression orchestrated by the corrupt media and democrat party.
Tourists just taking pictures!! I love it!
“I was slipping in people’s blood”
https://www.cnn.com/videos/politics/2022/06/10/caroline-edwards-capitol-police-officer-graphic-testimony-2022-january-6-hearings-vpx.cnn
That is what happens when the police shoot an unarmed protester without cause. Why is Congress not investigating that?
That lady was nowhere near Ms Babbit. Please try again.
Uh oh jimmy! You and americas mayor need to get on the same page… here he is yesterday saying ANTIFA shot Ms Babbit:
https://mobile.twitter.com/DavidEdwards/status/1536369755694587906?cxt=HHwWhICjveOJpNIqAAAA
"This ONE time, we should uncritically accept the words of a police officer in spite of a lack of evidence"
Testimony IS evidence you twit
Yup, officers have never lied under oath. Not once. Ever. Shame there is so little corroborating evidence for this claim. And no desire by the Committee to investigate it
I’m sorry— what aspect of her testimony are you disputing exactly? Are you saying it was all made up? Did you watch?
Yes, I am saying she made it up. I'm not even being subtle.
Ok huckleberry
I know...it's wrong (hell, borderline treasonous) to doubt the word of a cop.
Jimmy how many J6 defendants are currently being held without bail before trial? Out of how many total cases?
Do your own internet research.
Or is there a magic number for when holding political prisoners without bail and delaying their trials endlessly is OK with you?
“The figures are out there if you would just bother to look”
Oh jimmy jimmy. I already know the answer! But do you???
Bonus question: OF THOSE being detained pre-trial, how many have never been released since arrest? I.e. how many are back in jail awaiting trial because they violated their pre trial release terms? I also know the answer to this one— but do you? It might shock you!
If it was one...that would be OK?
After we hear about the equally-existent leprechauns.
Shorter Jimmy the Dane: "They didn't try to overthrow the government but were justified in doing so."
Kind of like the neo-Nazis who say, "The Holocaust was justifiable self-defense by the Germans but it's actually a hoax."
In regards to the partisan nature of this commission, and why that partisan nature is critically flawed in convincing people....let's use a legal analogy for you all.
Let's imagine a crime is committed. Green is said to have assaulted Blue. Green denies it. Certain people are predisposed to believe Blue. Blue's a decent type of guy. They wouldn't lie. Green's guilty. Other people are predisposed to believe Green. Green wouldn't have done this. Green's innocent.
Now, a standard court case would have both sides present their case. And that may convince people. And may not. But both sides would have been fully heard.
Now, imagine the same court case. But the prosecution goes "Green doesn't get to say anything. They need to stay silent. Only Blue (and the prosecution) can make their case. That's not going to convince those who are predisposed to Green. They'll be convinced he didn't get a fair say. Didn't get a chance to present any evidence that might clear his name. Because of that, this won't convince them. Furthermore, those on the border, who weren't sure either way, will see this as well. And will have major questions. Those who support Blue will see evidence to reinforce their existing views though, and won't need to worry about any contrary evidence.
All such a strategy does is reinforce the existing views of the Blues. It won't convince anyone new.
Green had every opportunity to present a case. He chose not to.
Agreed. It is worth noting that many, if not all, of those testifying are Republicans. We have not seen any supporters of the "Election Fraud" willing to testify. These people will speak on courthouse steps, will speak on the nightly shows, will blog and comment, but what they will not do is explain their position under oath.
And indeed, one of the complaints by even diehard Trumpkins like Tucker Carlson was that Sidney Powell kept claiming she had concrete evidence of fraud — but refused to show it to them.
Well, sure.
I figure Trump simply was incapable of believing that he'd lost to Biden, of all people. His ego wouldn't allow it. And a bunch of scammers were only too glad to tell him that he was right, in order to latch onto a gravy train.
The election had its dodgy aspects, and I'd say you can rationally suspect that an honestly administered election would have had a different outcome, given how close it was. But that doesn't mean there weren't fraudsters out there selling a line of BS about how they could prove that it would have come out differently.
Which of course they couldn't. And even if they could have, there wouldn't have been any remedy; We might rerun a local election if you can prove enough tainted ballots to have changed the outcome, there's no provision for doing that for a Presidential election.
Which is why he should have stopped after the EC voted.
No, Brett. You're trying to thread a needle here and failing. The fraudsters were not saying that it "would have come out differently" if it were honestly administered (hint: it was honestly administered). The fraudsters were saying that it did come out differently: that if one counted the actual eligible voters who cast genuine ballots, Trump won.
No, David, it was not honestly administered. Too many corners were cut using Covid as an excuse. Too many ad hoc changes were made to how it was run, in too many places.
Procedures were changed — everywhere, not just in swing states Biden won — to account for the extant circumstances, yes. That has nothing to do with the issue of "honest administration."
I've explained to you at depth, why this is incorrect.
No, you really did not explain the situation. We have a situation where Green talks all the time. Some Greens will talk under oath and accept cross examination and those Green's testimony support Blues position. Other Greens supporting the alternative position will not talk under oath or accept cross-examination. Expecting to be believed.
You have the prosecutor select the defense counsel, and then brag that the defense counsel can call any witnesses they want. That's what this amounts to.
Again: why are you people claiming that Republicans are the "defense counsel" for insurrectionists?
But, also again: you are lying. McCarthy suggested five Republicans. Pelosi accepted three of them, and then told him to pick two others; she did not "select" them. She did not select any Republicans — namely, Kinzinger — until after McCarthy said that all of them would refuse. (And caveat: she also selected Cheney, but not for one of the five minority spots.)
There was no insurrection, so no defense for insurrectionists. They are the defense for unfairly and unjustly maligned protesters.
You haven't done anything of the kind. You just keep asserting that McCarthy "had to" withdraw all Republicans, which is simply factually untrue. He chose to make that decision. He did not have to.
(And by your use of "had to," meaning something far less than literal, Pelosi "had to" reject Jordan/Banks. They were intolerable choices.)
Once again, the worst that was going to happen if Pelosi hadn't decided to violate over 200 years of precedent, was that some questions would get asked that she didn't want asked. Maybe stupid questions, maybe obnoxious questions, maybe grandstanding questions. Thank God Congressmen normally never ask any such questions while in committee!
But that's only "intolerable" because Democrats have grown pathologically intolerant. They have a tie in the Senate and a narrow majority in the House, and they think this not only entitles them to prevail, but to prevail without bothersome carping from the opposition.
I haven't said anything about the Republicans having to respond to that unprecedented intolerance by withdrawing all their nominees. It was a choice, not compelled.
But it was, in fact, the only sensible thing to do in the face of what Pelosi had done. To do otherwise would have legitimated her obnoxious action.
Sigh. Again: Pelosi immediately appointed three members of "the opposition" identified by McCarthy. Rodney Davis, Troy Nehls, and Kelly Armstrong. Presumably none of them would have refrained from "bothersome carping." (Nehls, in particular, is pretty MAGA-adjacent.)
Pelosi was trying to avoid sabotage, not "carping."
Where "sabotage" only meant "things would get said she didn't want said".
What kind of "sabotage" are you envisioning, when the Democrats were predestined to win every vote? Maybe evidence that contradicted the narrative not being concealed? Lines of questioning being pursued that didn't help the Democrats' case?
You're treating the Republicans not aiding the Democrats in railroading Trump as "sabotage". But the minority members aren't there to help the majority prevail. They're there to represent the minority's interests, which are presumed to be different from the majority's.
No, she was trying to establish that she gets to pick the Republican members of committees. There's no way in hell that precedent wouldn't be extended to other committees if the Republicans hadn't made a big deal of it. It would have been a terrible mistake to legitimize what she did.
You keep making the mistake that the committee is investigating whether Biden won fair and square. It is not. To the contrary, the committee is premised on the fact that he did. What the committee is charged with is investigating what brought about the January 6 riot given that premise. So, the committee is not going to, nor should it persuade the bat-shit crazies who believe the election was stolen from Trump (although, the testimony of Barr, Ivanka and others might help). Had McCarthy limited his appointments to those who accept the premise, then we would have had both sides presenting their case about whether Trump is culpable for January 6.
"As long as the defense stipulates what the prosecution wants, then they will be allowed to make their case"
Why do you continue to insist that Republicans are there to defend treasonous coup plotters?
And even with your metaphor: if a criminal defendant's lawyer wants to argue that the defendant has an alibi, that the witnesses are mistaken, etc., he can. But a court will not permit a criminal defendant's lawyer to argue that actually space aliens killed the victim. There are limits to the frivolousness allowed.
"Why do you continue to insist that Republicans are there to defend treasonous coup plotters?"
Democrats are blaming Republicans for it. Forgive them for trying to defend themselves.
And, again, 5/29/20 far outscaled 1/6 in terms of being an insurrection and attempted coup.
This committee isn't really about all Republicans.
YOU have chosen to tie yourself and the GOP to these people. Don't blame Dems for that.
The defense is free to argue Trump is not culpable. They are not free to argue that Biden stole the election any more than they are free top argue that Martians ordered January 6.
So, the defense is free to make the arguments the prosecution permits. And you're cool with that.
He is HERE. If it happened to Democrats, it'd be a kangaroo court and horrifying.
No court would allow the defense to make the argument that Martians ordered Jan 6. So yes, I am cool with that rule.
I reiterate: that's how actual courts work, Brett. A defendant can't just make any crazy conspiracy theory argument that pops into his head.
No, I'm aware of that. I can't say I'm terribly happy about the fact that the courts will shut down many lines of defense, including some, such as nullification, which are actually central to the point of having a jury. But I'm aware of that.
Is a Congressional committee a criminal trial? Are strict limits on what members of Congress can say normally in place? Quite the opposite, I understand.
"We just don’t agree w/ the left’s ridiculous claim that there was an attempt to overthrow the most powerful government on earth led by a guy in a Chewbacca bikini. https://mobile.twitter.com/jimmyfailla/status/1536336543031361538
And no one thought to bring guns with them either.....
Oh jimmy jimmy. This just isn’t true!
https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/leader-oath-keepers-and-10-other-individuals-indicted-federal-court-seditious-conspiracy-and
" According to the indictment, the QRF teams were prepared to rapidly transport firearms and other weapons into Washington, D.C., in support of operations aimed at using force to stop the lawful transfer of presidential power."
IOW, they left the guns in Virginia, where they weren't illegal to have. The most law abiding insurrectionists I've ever heard of.
I also do not see how "They had guns in VA, not in DC" is not them not bringing their guns with them.
Well, on the surface, law abiding with respect to DC firearms laws at least. Except that indictment identifies other conduct that is perhaps not so law abiding. In event event, someone did indeed “think to bring guns”.
But Wait, I thought these were just tourists snapping pictures! Or, excuse me, grannies snapping selfies! Why all the kit for a peaceful fun love fest, as I have been assured J6 definitely was? Let me guess: ANTIFA!!!!!!!
"Well, on the surface, law abiding with respect to DC firearms laws at least. Except that indictment identifies other conduct that is perhaps not so law abiding. In event event, someone did indeed “think to bring guns”."
Were.
They.
THERE?
No, they were not. Ergo, they did not bring them. "Well, they COULD have" is a laughable bit of predictive prosecution.
"But Wait, I thought these were just tourists snapping pictures! Or, excuse me, grannies snapping selfies! Why all the kit for a peaceful fun love fest, as I have been assured J6 definitely was? Let me guess: ANTIFA!!!!!!!"
1/6 was more of a peaceful protest than, say, 5/29/20,.
“Predictive prosecution”
Can you point me to the firearms charges in the indictment I linked to?
Merely Offered to refute the idea that “nobody thought to bring guns.”
Except well, yes, a lot of these gents (no grannies here!) did bring guns from quite a distance. For what? It was just a peaceful love in!
For what? I can't read their minds, and I wouldn't assume an indictment is evidence of what they were contemplating. (Just of what the government aspires to convince the court/jury of.) I'd only note that when the action started they left the guns behind, which is REALLY strange behavior for people staging a coup. I would think your average coupster is well aware they're in win or be hung territory, and not disdain lesser crimes along the way.
I might speculate. Many people expected Antifa to show up in force on that day, and attack the rally. I certainly did, it was one of the reasons I wasn't there. Perhaps they had them nearby in case the rally was attacked and DC police were ordered to stand down?
Well Brett, there were a lot of texts going back and forth between these guys in the days and months leading up to J6. Perhaps that would illuminate their intentions without the need for “mind reading”?
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1462481/download
Can you point me to the part that says “I’m scared of antifa”?
Most of the pre J6 signal chats are outlined under “acts in furtherance” pp. 10-20
"But Wait, I thought these were just tourists snapping pictures!"
Well, the majority of the people who entered the building that day were, so far as I can tell. But there obviously was a small group of people who had planned to break into the Capitol, and that's illegal enough, even if you're not content with only accusing them of what they actually DID.
There was a weapons cache in ballston or there wasn’t. What was it for?
Well, it obviously wasn't for invading the Capitol, since they didn't bring it with them when they did that.
See above. What THEY thought it was for is right there in the chats. Cmon are you really this obtuse in real life?
“It wasn’t for invading the Capitol”
What do you think this means?
At 2:38 p.m., VALLEJO messaged the Leadership Signal Chat, "QRF standing by at hotel. Just say the word..."
https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/1462481/download
Page 25
Are you so obtuse that you can't notice he didn't get the word, even though they did invade the Capitol?
I look forward to prosecutors asking about why that was at trial!
In any event, I think we can rule out “scared of antifa”
And, of course, to state the obvious, not going through with it wouldn’t change the reason they brought guns in the first place. It’s all over these chats.
But, rationally, "not going through with it" does tend to impeach the case that you meant to "go through with it.
The guns where brought partway there for some contingency, they were clearly, based on those communications, not intended to be used short of that contingency. So, what was the contingency they were for?
I don't see anything in the communications that identifies it.
Did you read pp. 10-20???
What do you think “it’s time for our Lexington” means?
I take it this comment means you’re abandoning the “they were just scared of antifa” theory?
That is pretty funny.
January 6th committee won't refer charges against Trump.
I imagine that does kind of reduce the odds of his being acquitted again.
Nope. That's not how it works. "Referrals" are political theater, nothing more; they are not a legal thing.
Note that what they actually said was that they weren't referring charges against anyone, because that's not their role.
That's true, it's not their role. I thought it worth mentioning in light of the fact that people have been commenting that they could be.
As this is a law blog let me ask a legal question, there is great reluctance to set a precedent of indicting the former President for his political shenanigans. But what about charging him with a simple crime like wire fraud? It could be argued that what the former President did was no different than Elizabeth Holmes? He took money for a lie and then put it in his own pocket.
I agree but Bill Clinton's paid enough having to live with Hilary Rodman.
On the surface, the conduct looks very similar to what got bannon charged with wire fraud
A lot of people working very hard to argue themselves out of supporting the democracy that our civic nationalism has been held together by since the Founding.
May you never prosper in your ambitions.
At this point it has become clear that facts do not matter to any of you, nor do ideals. Only vibes.
The only real truth is Own the libs.
Real Americans are who matter.
Conservativism cannot fail only be failed, by the libs, who are everywhere and in everything.
It's a powerful purely emotional throughline driving you now, and also pretty fascistic in the semiotic Eco Ur-sense.
Those ignoring Jan 06 - all of you - I hope that your power fades and you die frustrated.
If you want to hide under your bed forever at the horror of grannies taking selfies, knock yourself out.
You are denying a violent attack on our republic, because you care about winning more than the republic.
Go away, and lose forever.
"You are denying a violent attack on our republic"
Largest violence came from the police.
And if some grannies taking selfies are all it takes to topple our government, we are already fucked beyond all words.
Just amazing that months of violent and deadly riots were NOT an attack on our republic. Just grannies taking selfies.
Out of the 810 arrests made so far in connection with J6 how many were grannies? All of them?
As long as you're rationalizing that the majority gets to pick the minority members of a committee, and somehow this doesn't mean that the minority is permitted to regard the process as a farce, you're the one who's hopeless.
The Jan. 6 committee is entirely a political operation, basically just a congressionally funded PR campaign against Trump. Nothing more. The moment they decided that Pelosi was going to pick all the members, that was fixed in stone.
That's been explained to you *many* times. It's impossible for you to misunderstand at this point, unless you're willfully blinding yourself.
You are not so dumb. No, you are hiding behind your blatantly incorrect take so as to rationalize your rejection of our baseline republican norms of government. Because better that than admit your side lost an election because it's lost it's way and has become bad and crazy.
You are one of the best examples of how the GOP just runs on vibes now. No facts, no principles. It's all Eco.
Again, the Dems refused to allow the GOP to name their own members.
That is the simple reality.
That is OK with you, which is fine. Just do not whine when identical treatment is given to Dems when they are in the minority.
Remember...your side started it.
Yes, when the new Congress takes it's seat after the election, the Republicans, in the majority, should pick some committee the Democrats care a lot about, and tell them, "We're going to pick your minority members. You're alright with that, right?"
So now you are conflating ad how committees with standing committees.
I don’t know if your overabundance of certainty is why you can’t stop being wrong, or if you are following an emotional need that goes beyond facts, but it doesn’t matter.
Functionally you are supporting those who are hostile to the governmental system that has made us exceptional.
I'm trying to bring home to you the fact that you can't demand that the minority party respect a committee the majority won't let them have meaningful participation in.
Again, I point out to you that the worst case scenario for letting the Republicans have their picks was that some questions would get asked the Democrats didn't want asked. It was so important to them that those questions didn't get asked that they nuked over 200 years of legislative tradition to make sure they didn't get asked. Pelosi herself admitted the action was totally unprecedented.
We all know you wouldn't have respected it even if it had Kevin's choices on it. You didn't respect the courts, or your own AG, or your own VP, or the states, or the Capitol Police, what in the world would make us think that the one thing you would believe is a House Select Committee with Jim Jordan on it?
There's a never-ending supply of excuses to remain self-delusional.
"We all know you wouldn't have respected it even if it had Kevin's choices on it."
Justifying poor behavior on an assumption seems like something a fool what be loathe to do.
"You didn't respect the courts, or your own AG, or your own VP, or the states, or the Capitol Police, what in the world would make us think that the one thing you would believe is a House Select Committee with Jim Jordan on it?"
Yup, one should never --- LITERALLY never --- question what the state says. They know better than you.
I have literally said that the saddest thing about 1/6 is that Pence will likely never be President. That's how much I disrespect him as VP. Certainly I'd have been happier if he'd been at the top of the ticket, rather than the bottom; He's one of the few guys in modern politics I could vote for and not think myself voting for the lesser evil. Rand Paul is the only other one who immediately comes to mind.
"what in the world would make us think that the one thing you would believe is a House Select Committee with Jim Jordan on it?"
'You'd have thought the deck was crooked even if I hadn't insisted on you leaving the room when I shuffled it, so who cares if you complain?'
The majority let them have meaningful participation in it. They just chose to reject it.
Yeah, just like if you shut me up, but hand me a script I'm allowed to read from, I still have meaningful freedom of speech.
Again, last time: The minority picks the minority members of a committee, and even Pelosi admitted at the time she was doing something unprecedented.
And you'll scream bloody hell if Republicans return the favor next year, of that I am very sure.
No, Brett. They could have set the rules so that the Speaker appoints 8 people and the minority leader appoints 5. They did not. They set the rules so that the Speaker appointed all 13 people, and merely had to confer with the minority leader on 5 of them.
And nothing stopped McCarthy from naming 5 people except his own intransigence. Pelosi did not say, "I don't care about the list you gave me; I am naming the five GOPers of my choice." She said, "I'll take these three, but you can't have these two. Pick two other ones."
Hey, remember when Mitch McConnell refused to let Obama appoint a Supreme Court justice?
And you'll scream bloody hell if Republicans return the favor next year, of that I am very sure.
You don't usually indulge in hypothetical double standard bullshittery.
So, Sarcastro, in over 200 years, how many times previously has this happened? How many times previously has the majority told the minority they could not have the people they designated?
Pelosi ALSO blocked Republicans from certain regular Committees ALSO.
Again, you support these rules. And will do so until the Dems get impacted.
I oppose the rules, but also believe that the only way to kill a bad law is to apply it evenly.
False.
The fox raided the henhouse and killed some chickens. He was seen leaving the coop with blood and feathers on his mouth.
The weasels were very upset at this, as they felt that killing chickens was their exclusive domain. What to do? The chief weasel said, let’s set up a committee, we’ll hold hearings and expose that nasty fox. So they held hearings and took testimony, it was broadcast live by CNN, videos were played, all showing that the nasty fox had killed some chickens.
But the chickens paid no attention. They did not bother watching the hearings. They did not care. Instead, they were focused on the fact that their chicken feed had become more expensive, and the farmer could now give them less. They were forced to peck and peck to get enough chicken feed for themselves and their chicks.
The weasels were very upset. “Why are you ignoring us, they said?” One chicken answered, “because we already know that fox the killed our friends.” Another answered, “Our friends are already dead. We have to worry about feeding our chicks, that’s more important.” A third answered, “True, the fox is a chicken killer. But we know you are all a bunch of weasels. You just want to get the fox so you can have us for yourselves.”
Chickens, that's a good word for them. The fox made feed more expensive, killed a bunch of them, and promised to do it again, and so much more. But they are afraid, like chickens, to face the truth.
You rationalize supporting those hostile to rule of law via your anger over politics.
Shameful.
You have no clue. Your supposed ability to see into my mind is laughable. Try reading the parable again and think about it.
I read your comment, and what it does is rationalize supporting those hostile to the rule of law by intimating the Dems did something as bad.
Which is untrue.
At this point, if you don't see that, it's because you don't want to see it.
It is untrue.
Dems did dramatically worse from 2017-2020.
The problem with your fable is Trump's attempt to steal the election is not analogous to anything the Democrats have done (although I agree the populace is more worried about inflation right now than stolen elections).
Democrats weaponized the FBI to spy on Trump and ruin the lives of people for no reason.
Fuck this "Trump did something uniquely bad" bullshit. Nothing he did touches that.
The "Democrats weaponized the FBI" accusation is bullshit as evidenced by the lack of anything from Durham about it.
"The DOJ couldn't possibly have done anything wrong. If they did, they'd prosecute themselves!"
Yeah, Durham is just the controlled opposition.
Nothing will convince you.
I confess I know very little about Durham or his "investigation." What did he find out? I just thought it was silly from day one as the Trumpites got excited about this "Durham" guy.
But yeah, as long as the DOJ doesn't prosecute itself, then I guess that means they didn't actually wiretap the Trump campaign! And the Clinton campaign didn't cook up the dossier after all. I mean, if that powerful evidence isn't enough to get you to disbelieve your own eyes, then you're probably hopeless.
I personally figured Durham and Barr were just running out the clock on Trump. It was a widespread suspicion.
Of course Barr and Durham are part of the conspiracy against Trump. Wait! WTF? Do you have shares in Tin-Foil Hat, Inc?
Let's see. In recent weeks, it came out that the Supreme Court woud likely come out this term with a very controversial ruling. So the Majority Leader in Congress threatened two justices, by name, with "reaping the whirlwind." And then, when someone actually tried to assasinate one justice, the Speaker of the House repeatedly refuses to pass a provision providing protection for Justices.
The conclusion that most people make is that, with a WINK WINK, the political leadership is encouraging threats of violence to influence the decisions of the highest court in the land.
That is morally as bad as what Trump did. Spare me the lawyerly technical differences. Perhaps the weasel is more clever at sneaking around than the fox. But in the end, they both want the same thing.
You're working very hard to get angry enough at those Dems you don't care about what the Republicans support.
It is, as I said above, a shameful abrogation of your duty to uphold the law.
So you support threats of assassination as part of legal advocacy. And you are lecturing me about upholding the law and shame. You seem to have no ability to introspect.
Neither "reaping the whirlwind" nor declining to take up a bill is an assassination threat. You're using all of your emotions and none of your brain.
Do you really think anyone is acting based on a violent interpretation of Schumer's quote? Compare to hundreds of indicted and convicted insurrectionists saying that Trump made them do it.
"Neither "reaping the whirlwind" nor declining to take up a bill is an assassination threat. You're using all of your emotions and none of your brain."
"Go forth peacefully", however, is a CLEAR incitement to riot.
"covfefe" is also not an incitement to riot, as far as I'm aware.
I like this idea that a defense to incitement is if the guy ever uttered anything that wasn't incitement. Maybe it works for attempted murder also? "Well, he obviously isn't an attempted murderer since he didn't attempt to murder Alito."
Yeah no, I think you understand that when analyzing someone's words to decide if they did something like "incited a riot," you would have to analyze their full statements in context. Rather than take snippets and cut and paste them together in whatever way you want that makes it seem bad.
Side note, a guy I knew freshman year of college was actually charged with inciting a riot for drunkenly climbing a lamppost, raising his fist and yelling Yeah! or something like that.
Given that the riot was well underway before he even spoke on the Mall, I don't think any of his Mall statements are part of the case. There's no such thing as retroactive incitement. It's his actions and statements (tweets) leading up to the sixth that are relevant.
Right, but the other statements are too remote from the event to constitute legal incitement, which is why they keep trying to pin that riot on the speech he made that day.
What are you even talking about? Remote in what way?
Big protest in DC on January 6th. Be there, will be wild!
That seems pretty directly linked to January 6th. If you want people to come to your thing, you have to advertise it in advance.
Yeah, and I suppose if he used bullet points, you'd regard that as orders to shoot people, too?
If I was the prosecutor I'd be pretty hesitant to take the case (at least with the current public evidence).
But that doesn't mean I don't think Trump knew exactly what he was doing and got pretty close to the result he was looking for. His base heard the message loud and clear, and he didn't seem too surprised at what they ultimately got up to.
"But that doesn't mean I don't think Trump knew exactly what he was doing"
Yeah, that's the problem here: You're looking at Trump starting from a presumption of guilt. That makes the case against him look incredibly stronger than it really is.
I've pointed out before that Democratic activists were discussing impeaching Trump if he won before he'd even secured the nomination. A poll in February 2017 showed a majority of Democrats in favor of impeaching him, before a charge could even be identified.
Democrats have been approaching him from a presumption of guilt from the very start, and it has blinded them to how weak their cases against him really are.
lol
That, of course, was over two years ago.
And, Schumer clarified the remarks days later:
If your narrative is true, it's on par with stealing an election. However, I don't buy the narrative. Schumer was speaking about a political fallout and Pelosi held up the bill so it could cover court staff (she has now relented and will allow the Senate bill to move forward).
You're comparing threats made 2 years ago to an *actual* insurrection, and subsequent defense of it by a political party. All in an attempt to tu quoque away said insurrection.
How can you not see you are the baddies?
No, we're comparing threats made two years ago to something only left-wing partisans call an actual insurrection.
Ad popularum, now?
But the main point is more that you just compared an act of violence to speech.
This is discarding some bedrock American principles in service of protecting Donald Trump.
If only your partisans agree with you, that's evidence that partisanship, not evidence, is driving your beliefs.
The one policy suggestion Ilya does not make? Actually passing any of the election reforms which supermajorities of voters support that would bring US elections in line with the rest of the First World, like integrity deadlines, banning drop-boxes, restricting mail-ins to the narrow class of persons who actually need them, banning ballot-harvesting, mandating regular updating and verification of voter rolls, and enforcing citizenship and Voter ID requirements. But of course that would be a bridge too far. Then the nasty unwashed proles who so spooked him on 1/6 might actually get what they want on some political issue, and we can't have that under any circumstance! Never mind that large majorities of the whole country want these things too, and the only people who don't are woke progressives and their libertarian quislings, like Ilya. Give me a break. You are an utterly unserious thinker and this post is just the latest in a long line of proofs of that fact.
The only election reforms that you are interested in are the ones that make sure few people vote, so that maybe, you can steal an election. You aren't looking for democracy but disenfranchisement.
Odd that the Republicans are not upset about the Georgia voting changes that led to a significant increase in voting over 2020. Can you explain that?
I think the majority want voter ID. But mail-in voting with drop boxes is popular. Also, most of the First World has compulsory voting registration. I'm all for getting every over-18 citizen registered and giving them an ID when they do so. I doubt the Republican party wants that.
Most would be OK if so many states weren't anxious to give drivers licenses and all to illegals and using that as a back door for other things, such as voter registrations.
My chief objection to mandatory registration is that people who are registered to vote, but reliably don't vote, are the raw material for absentee ballot fraud, since you can safely generate a ballot for them without it being exposed if they show up at their polling place to vote.
Suitably safeguard absentee ballots, and I'd drop that objection.
Re-institute the poll tax to be paid at the time you vote. Use the proceeds to reduce the national debt.
The 24th amendment prohibits poll taxes.
How about calling it a "donation" like so many museums do?
Better yet a "voting service fee" and of course tax deductible.
Of all the takes I had expected from the huckleberries on this thread for the ages, I must confess “repeal the 24th Amendment” was not one I had on my bingo card
Me neither.
you can safely generate a ballot for them without it being exposed if they show up at their polling place to vote.
This is a good example of the right's confusion about voter fraud. This technique will get you one vote. One vote is not going to swing an election. And people know that, so they don't even bother with this kind of fraud. (And to the extent a few people try it, it tends to mostly cancel out or mirror the actual vote count anyway. That's why you always her the caveat "sufficient to change the outcome." There's always a tiny sliver of fraud, but it's just noise.)
If someone were to try to coordinate a lot of these fraudulent ballots all pointing the same way, it would be really obvious and get caught. I realize understanding that requires math, so it's not something I expect to be intuitive to most people. I'm sympathetic to the confusion. So imagine there were a million such infrequent voters, each of whom votes only once in a hundred years. You try to sneak in just 100 fake absentee ballots. Do you know what your chances are of at least one of them also getting voted in person, exposing the scheme? 98%. It's almost certain not to work. Even just 20 bad ballots have a better than even chance of being detected. You aren't going to swing many elections with 20 ballots.
Voter fraud is super-easy to detect. Much easier to detect than to prevent. It's like, would you rather put a metal detector at the airport, or prevent the risk of hijacking entirely by eliminating metal from society?
Anyway, I don't expect people to understand that intuitively. So sure, let's do a bunch of voter integrity theater if it makes people feel better, as long as we also make voting more accessible (like, have enough voting locations in urban areas).
My fear though is that no amount of integrity theater will convince people that an election is legitimate if they're being told otherwise. As we saw, it's really easy to concoct theories of voter fraud -- with "evidence!" -- where none exists. Will voter ID make any difference? Why?
I don't know if ostentatiously cutting the deck will really convince somebody the deck isn't stacked. But I'm very confident adamantly refusing to cut the deck will convince them that it IS stacked. Objecting to ballot security measures is counter-productive that way, I hope you understand.
So, by all means, let's have ballot security theater. Or, rather, real ballot security, even if one would like to assume it's unneeded.
We should've put election day on Feb 29.
Maybe April 1.
Well, Presidential elections that wouldn't be a bad idea.
Except the rules for leap years preclude a leap year happening every four years without exception.
That's right, no executive branch for four years starting in 2100.
Well I guess it won't matter because by then the world would have been destroyed by global warming.
You make it sound so easy. First you might sneak one or two ballots through but how do you get enough ballots to matter. How do you know that a person will not try to vote so you can capture their unused ballot. Every ballot you take offers the opportunity to get caught. The more you try to get the greater the risk.
Now you might look at the person's voting record or lack of it and use that to predict non-voters. But the opposition also has that data and if a bunch of non-voters turn up voting one year, they can investigate. So that kills that ideas.
An even harder task is to get the targeted ballot. The ballots are sent to the person's address and so your operatives are going to have to go around and check all the mail boxes every day to grab the ballot.
It easy to say you could get these ballots, harder to actually do that.
I see a hidden premise there, that you're probably unaware you're basing your reasoning on.
You're assuming that the people administering the election are honestly doing their jobs, and all attempts at stealing elections have to come from outside the system.
But, the first people you have to secure any system against are the people running it.
We don't, for instance, audit a company's books to catch people sneaking in in the dead of night to alter the numbers. We do it to catch embezzlers. To protect the company against the people charged with maintaining the books.
Election administration in the US is largely partisan, and in locales where one party dominates, *everybody* involved in running an election will be of the same party. That's strike one against keeping the system honest.
Look at your case for fraud being difficult again, only assuming that it's an inside job. It suddenly looks a lot easier.
Yes, well, there goes your case for voter ID!
I'll readily concede that. It's generally agreed by elections experts that almost all the risk to elections is in the absentee ballots, and in person vote fraud is negligible. And voter ID is directed against that.
That said, voter ID is a great example of an "ostentatious deck cutting" security measure: Doesn't address a big issue, but the cost of implementing it is minor, and the refusal to inevitably causes suspicion.
Personally, I'd rather that we ditched the electronic voting machines, (An IT security nightmare!) and improved chain of custody and transparency. And minimized the use of absentee ballots, where the chain of custody and ballot privacy issues are basically unfixable.
What about the consensus among politicians! To ignore the political consensus is to be anti-truth.
Like evolution?
Somin needs to register as a Democrat, the party of vile, toxic, lawyer scumbag, and the failed elite, our superiors.
" anti-truth."
No, your opinion is not 'truth" just because you want it to be and because people in your party act as if they believe it.
Associating any of our politicians with truth is laughable.
Um... that was a joke. I'm really hoping mad_kalak's post was a joke too, it's very funny.
My response:
I just love it when our "betters" tell us to ignore everything we saw on the evening of and the wee morning hours after the Presidential election day of 2020. Watch 2000 Mules and tell me how THAT was legal.
Without even looking at the evidence of fraud we heard the words "Most Secure Election Ever" stated repeatedly. The affidavits of poll-workers setting out the fraud they witnessed were ignored. Laws were changed or ignored by elections officials.
And, magically between the hours of 2 and 4 in the morning, after counting had been stopped in 5 states and most voters had gone to bed, new votes came in by the tens of thousands giving Biden a miraculous win. Amazingly, in counties where 97% of the vote was in with Trump leading by an unbeatable lead, the vote totals suddenly changed to 90% of the vote had been counted and almost all the remaining votes that came in were 100% for Biden. THIS could NOT have happened in a legit election.
Attorneys, who should be the ones for upholding the law no matter whether their preferred outcome is the result, have sold their souls to the devil. I hope inflation and the stock market crash takes away your home, your job, your retirement accounts, your transgender significant other, AND your electric vehicle. Also, I hope you are accused at some point of a crime of hate speech and are forced to suffer a star chamber hearing and go through your own struggle session where you required to speak things you know are not true, but are still sentenced to the maximum sentence.
So, a pox (the monkey pox, even) on all of you that call the election fraud a "Big Lie". Elections have consequences and stolen fake elections have major consequences. Unfortunately, we are all having to suffer from those consequences of YOUR failings.
Your betters tell you lots of things, but you're not really smart enough to understand them; that's what makes them your betters.
I feel very sad for you, Cindy.
Thank you, excellent!
Ok phew! Someone got it.
cope and seethe