The Volokh Conspiracy
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J.D. Vance, Taxing the Childless, and the Power of Framing
The controversy over Vance's advocacy of higher tax rates for childless adults illustrates the power of framing.

I am, to understate the point, no fan of Republican VP candidate J.D. Vance and the "national conservative" ideology he espouses. But much of the backlash generated by his 2021 statement that childless adults should pay higher tax rates is a matter of framing. It highlights how people can have widely divergent reactions to similar policy proposals, depending on how they are described.
Many are forgetting that the childless already pay higher taxes than parents with the same incomes. Under current law, most parents are entitled to the child tax credit. My wife and I have two kids, and we claim it whenever eligible to do so (under current law, whenever our household income is under $400,000). When we take the credit, we end up paying less in taxes than would a childless couple with the same income.
The child tax credit enjoys broad bipartisan support. Many Democrats argue it should actually be bigger. Why is it so popular? Because it's framed as giving parents lower tax rates, rather than making childless people pay higher ones. Described in those terms, almost everyone loves it!
On the other hand, when Vance says childless people should pay higher tax rates and takes swipes at "childless cat ladies," he comes off like an intolerant, misogynist creep, and many people hate him. Maybe that's exactly what he deserves; I'm not shedding any tears for him. But most of the same people are happy to support much the same policy if it's described in different terms.
Lower tax rates for parents and higher ones for childless adults are two sides of the same coin. One unavoidably implies the other. The different reactions to the two descriptions are the result of a "framing effect:" where views on policy ideas are driven by wording rather than substance.
In a world where voters are highly knowledgeable about policy and carefully evaluate alternative ideas, framing effects wouldn't matter much. But, in reality, most voters are rationally ignorant about policy, and often do a poor job of evaluating the information they do get. For that reason, framing effects often have a big impact.
If I were advising Vance (don't worry, it's never going to happen!), I would tell him to stop talking about cat ladies, and instead say something like this:
"I want to give a bigger tax break to America's hard-pressed parents, so they can better provide for their children. Parents and kids need a break from heavy taxes and high prices. After all, children are our future!" Maybe combine it with an ad in which Vance appears with a group of mothers and kisses some babies.
Is the child tax credit actually a good idea? Should we increase it? I'm far from certain. But framed in these positive terms (as tax relief for parents, rather than as forcing the childless to pay higher taxes), it sure sounds good to most people.
One can tell a similar story about Vance's advocacy of giving extra votes to parents. He described it as forcing childless people to "face the consequences and the reality" and not get "nearly the same voice" in our democracy. That sounds awful and predictably generates negative reactions. But the same idea can also be described as providing greater voice for children's interests by allowing parents to represent them more effectively. Indeed, that is precisely how extra-votes-for-parents has been defended by left-liberal advocates, such as Harvard political scientist Paul Peterson, and political commentator Michael Kinsley (Peterson would give parents the option of letting the kids cast the vote themselves if the parents believe their children are up to it).
They didn't frame the idea as penalizing the childless, but rather as giving greater clout to children's interests. But, as with relative tax rates, the two are just different ways of describing the same thing. Since political influence is a zero-sum game, giving more votes to Group A necessarily reduces the proportional electoral weight of B, C, and D.
I am not convinced parents should get extra votes for their children. On the other hand, I have tentatively defended the idea of letting knowledgeable children (those with political knowledge levels at least as great as that of the average adult voter) cast votes for themselves. I think that would improve the quality of political decision-making at the margin. But I have to acknowledge it would reduce the political power of adult voters. Still, I don't frame it that way when I argue for it.
I came up with this idea before I had kids of my own. But my nine-year-old is now a big fan of it!
Here, my point is not to defend any particular voting scheme, but to highlight the framing effects. Peterson, Kinsley, and others didn't get as much backlash as Vance, in large part because they described the same idea in more positive terms: as increased voice for parents and children, rather than as decreasing the power of the childless.
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Child tax credits is a system rife with fraud like so many other government programs.
How so?
How now Brown Cow?
Nonexistent children and multiple people claiming the same child.
Next you'll be claiming Ill-legal Aliens Vote, Get Hussein-Obamacare, and Rape & Murder Amuricans.
Frank
Evidence? Sounds really hard to me given dependent children need a unique SSN or taxpayer identification number to qualify for the credit.
Don't know what you will accept as "evidence" but here is an example. Granted it is 10 years old but I don't think much has been done to improve accountability by the Feds as witnessed by fraud and improper payments of Covid monies.
https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/earned-income-tax-credit-still-plagued-high-error-rate/
The EITC has nothing to do with the CTC. Different programs entirely that operate in different ways.
They exist together and are both subject to the same types of fraud.
Even if they were justified the problem is that they (like the rest of the tax code) are much too complicated.
What fraud occurs with the EITC that also occurs with the CTC?
Exactly as stated here https://www.gunder.com/en/services/focus-areas/tax
And difficult to say what is rational or irrational about a system or tax proposal the author never bothers to define, other than by linking to CBS hit pieces on Vance. Whatever Vance has advocated, I doubt it is anywhere close to the 80% rate Kamala has longed for, and inflation might be deemed as some to be a hidden tax, that affects lower incomes more. Thanks for that Biden/Harris administration.
'I don't believe to OP, here is an attack on the other side based entirely on my butt to change the subject. You believe me, right?
Also I'm going to call Vance by his last name and Harris by her first name, because I'm a petty little man.'
Yeah, I heard that exact piece on NPR yesterday. It applies to blacks as well. The old Southern redneck practice of infantilizing blacks and women in this way so they are just nigga boy and nigga gal. But I don't blame Riva hear. This got baked into him from whatever monstrous household he grew up in
Of course you heard it on NPR, right after the top of the hour headlines about Israel killing innocent children in an unprovoked attack, "Fresh Air" with Terry Gross (ever seen her? name doesn't do her justice) and funny, can't find "Prairie Home Companion" anymore, whatever happened to that guy?
There have plenty of non-Nigger politicos go by their first name, "Beto", "Jeb(!)", "Hillary!" and look at how well they did!
Frank
I assume Profs. Adler, Barnett, Baude, Kerr, Kopel, Sachs, and Whittington get a tingle every time their white, male, conservative blog publishes a vlle racial slur. I also assume that is at least part of the reason they are unwilling to discuss the frequency with which their blog publishes vile racial slurs.
I am confident Profs. Bernstein and Blackman, and former professor Volokh, enjoy that tingle.
Prof. Somin I can't understand.
Carry on, clingers.
Given all these whines, almost seems you would prefer no one bring up Kamala’s desire to tax you bastards back to the stone age with her 80 % rate and the Biden/Harris inflation. Just the tip of the disaster that is Bidenonomics and whatever economic hell a Kamala administration would release. So you guys stick with the cat lady nonsense and let the adults handle policy.
It almost seems like you're making shit up, given your utter lack of sources.
Meanwhile JD Vance admitted to fucking couches in his book.
[Note that JD Vance did not actually write this, but Riva's on that level so here's some fun.]
Fucking couches is better than random women.
Much like punching a punching bag is better than punching people.
My comment about adults applies to Marxists too. I know you hate being called a communist.
I may never have fucked a couch, but anyone who's been in the Military (and probably most who haven't) know about a little invention called the "Pocket Pussy"
it's sort of like the "Pocket Fisherman" except you don't fish with it
Frank
One more reason the American military hasn't won a war in 75 years, despite staggering taxpayer-provided resource advantages?
Making shit up? Although likely an avid fan, Sarcastr0 must have missed the View when Kamala said a "70% to 80% tax rate," as well as the idea that "every car should be eliminated in the next 11 years" were "bold ideas that should be discussed" No they should be rejected out of hand, like a Harris candidacy. Which is what the voters did when actually given a choice to vote for Kamala in a primary. But the party apparently had other ideas. Go democracy!
I found the clip. Harris didn't say anything like that.
https://x.com/RNCResearch/status/1815857376022475098
You clearly never saw the clip.
You are, indeed, full of shit. And empty of shame.
We've all come to expect you to spin things to benefit your side but now you've resorted to straight up lying. I watched the clip. Harris was told of AOC advocating for a 70-80% tax rate and elimination of all cars in the next 10-11 years and Harris said these are bold ideas that should be discussed.
Seems a very far cry from: "her 80 % rate" but you seem like you like you some spin, when it's in the direction you like.
Let’s hope she’s not open to more bold ideas like seizing private property or WWIII. But I suspect she just may be.
Your fan fiction sucks.
Yes, making shit up. Your initial claim was about "Kamala’s desire to tax you bastards back to the stone age with her 80 % rate." And of course the actual facts aren't anything like that.
(Also, Republicans are already in the stone age, so there's that.)
The actual facts say exactly that, despite your bs gaslighting.
Bot's malfunctioning again. For some inexplicable reason it is programmed to use the word "gaslighting" almost at random.
There's the minor lie: turning "70 to 80%" to "80^." There's the major lie: claiming she "desires" this when all she said was that it was a "bold idea that should be discussed." (Hint: like "establishing a commission to study it," that's what politicians say when they don't support something.) And claiming that it was about taxing "you bastards" when there was nothing at all in there about who such a tax rate would apply to.
You do seem rather overly obsessed with the word bot. I suggest a therapy app to overcome whatever you’re going through.
But you run with that messaging. It’s a winner. Every voter wants a candidate who is fascinated with the bold idea of taxing the shit out of them and banning cars.
Riva, if you don't want people to be calling you a bot, don't regurgitate the latest uncited bullshit talking point every single time.
The funniest part about you is how pissed off you are at the intimation that you don't think for yourself.
Didn't we just point out video evidence of Kamala's fascination with the bold idea of taxing the living shit out of everyone? Oh and banning cars. Too bad it's not the good old days when you guys could get Twitter to censor such inconvenient truths.
There was no fascination. Heck we don't even know what AOC actually said and meant.
You're just a tool who regurgitates whatever morsel of shit you pick up from Sean Hannity or whatever rot you listen to.
I was going to comment further on other bold democrat ideas, but it doesn't bear thinking about what else a Harris administration would be open to implementing. Stuff of nightmares.
You like being fearful and angry so much you'll make up a fantasy just to keep it up.
Fearful and angry will be par for the course in whatever hell America becomes when their bold ideas become reality. That and poverty, and war, and crime.
Whatever hell America becomes? So much for cooling down the rhetoric!
Take off the drama pants. I'm pretty against Trump, but no one is going to usher in hell.
Obama didn't despite the right saying he would.
Biden didn't, despite the right saying he would.
If you don’t want a hellish future, don’t put someone in power who is fascinated with confiscatory tax rates and banning cars.
You're really quite bothered that this information is out there. Good.
Is this your new thing? Say some bullshit and when people say it's bullshit, say 'wow you seemed bothered by the truth bombs I'm dropping.'
The bot has been reprogrammed to say the word "fascinated."
“Tax you bastards back to the stone age!”
I think that was originally from a Letterman “Top 10 Reasons Michael Dukakis Lost” show in 1988, probably the last time Letterman was funny.
“Ill advised Campaign Pledge to “Tax you bastards back to the stone age!”
Frank
Pardon my memory, it was “Top 10 Dukakis Excuses” from
November 9, 1988
10. Forgot to wear “lucky shorts.”
9. Thought election was first Tuesday in December.
8. It’s just a big popularity contest.
7. Used Wendell to warm-up campaign crowds.
6. Couldn’t believe anyone in a million, jillion years would vote for George Bush.
5. Extensive campaigning in Belgium was waste of time.
4. Fell for Bush’s old “you-vote-for-me-and-I’ll-vote-for-you” trick.
3. ** insert your own eyebrow joke here **
2. Ill-advised pledge to “tax you bastards back to the Stone Age.”
1. Didn’t care about presidency; just wanted to win $20 bet that I could do better than Mondale.
1. Vance is talking policy, not implementation.
2. Do you have sources for this rife with fraud thing? Or just that it's a government program?
work in public housing -- you'll see...
No one believes you.
I’ve said that Vance wasn’t my first choice. But given how he triggers all the democrats and their media adjuncts, seem like it was the right one after all. A new strain of TDS is emerging as they lose what remains of their minds.
Just like Sarah Palin got a lot of pushback and ridicule not because she was an evident idiot but because she was over the target!
You're change of subject to avoid either of my points really shows how little your programming has prepared you. The GOP's still on it's backfoot.
When was the last time anyone checked the Palin family ratios on graduations to convictions, gainful employment to arrests, unplanned pregnancies to legitimate livelihoods, or "family values" advocacy gigs to divorces and adultery?
I was wrong about Sarah Palin and her daughter going into pro wrestling (tag team) and pornography (tag team), though, at least so far (and so far as I am aware).
MAGA summed up perfectly in two sentences: "the only thing I care about is pwning the libs."
(Note that by Riva's standard, Kamala Harris was obviously the right Democratic choice because MAGA has utterly gone berserk over her becoming the nominee.)
While it is admittedly fun to mock liberals, democrats and Marxists (but I repeat myself), the republican platform has been published. What's the democratic platform, apart from the taxing the shit out of everyone, banning cars and gas appliances, open borders, and inflation? No wonder you guys like to exploit race and class differences. Who could sell that other democrat shit?
“On the other hand, I have tentatively defended the idea of letting knowledgeable children (those with political knowledge levels at least as great as that of the average adult voter) cast votes for themselves.”
Gah. I happened to luck into a genius level IQ. My parents taught me to read before I reached the age for kindergarten, (Just as we did with my son.) and I’d read every book in the house by the age of 10. There were a LOT of them, both my parents were readers. A complete encyclopedia, books on psychology, (Especially child psychology, my parents inadvertently left them in the open, so I read them before my parents did.) medicine, history, you name it. Once I had access to the public library I was reading several books a day. I’d have easily passed any such test.
And I was a complete and utter fool, as I could see looking back from adulthood. Just a very well informed one.
Book learning is no substitute for life experience, and children are almost completely lacking in life experience. The thought of children having the vote, even informed ones, is terrifying.
More importantly, book learning is no substitute for the higher brain development that involves short term decision making(18ish) and long term decision making(25ish). The Founders weren't stupid and even if they didn't have a scientific explanation for it they knew young people were fucking idiots. The only reason the voting age got reduced in the first place is because of the government evil that is the draft.
"Was."
I kid because I love you.
Also lost the well informed part somewhere along the way.
The truly terrifying part of that is that given the level of average adult understanding there really isn't a lower limit.
How many points would you have traded to avoid being autistic?
I usually enjoy your comments on the whole, but when you do this about Brett it makes me cringe every time. I wish you would stop doing it.
That is the commentary at this blog -- not the everyday content from the Conspirators and their bigoted right-wing fans -- that makes you cringe?
You could ask the management of this blog to censor me. It has happened before, more than once. Maybe throw a racial slur or some gay-bashing and misogynistic slurs into your request to improve your chances. Good luck.
I'm sensing that my wish isn't going to come true.
James David Vance received strong criticism when he referenced “childless cat ladies” & his response was to apologize to the cats.
The concern is not child tax credits. People were upset when he said people like Kamala Harris, AOC, and Pete Buttigieg don’t have a stake in the future since they don’t have children.
This received pushback in part since Buttigieg has adopted children & Harris is a stepparent & her husband’s children have a close relationship with her. Put aside that people like AOC have a stake in society even if they don’t have children.
So, people are not really “forgetting” anything here.
The extra votes for the parents bit (a contributor suggested this too) is also not just “framing.” The point [at least for him. going by the link provided] is that if you don’t have children [again some of his remarks defines this narrowly], you are somehow a lesser citizen.
It’s an offensive comment & he is rightly called on it.
The point is that, if you don't have children, you're probably not contributing to the continuance of the species.
"Probably". Obviously this isn't a sure thing, you could have adopted, you could be assisting somebody else in so contributing.
But government policy isn't that fine grained, it works on generalities, and this is a valid one: Without people having children, it's all over, so we really, REALLY need to encourage having children, and accommodate it.
Giving people who have them more votes is a way to skew government policy in this direction.
It's probably a non-starter politically, since people who don't have children already have enough political clout to block it. But I don't mind people in policy making positions actually thinking about ways to accomplish important ends.
“Probably”. Obviously this isn’t a sure thing, you could have adopted, you could be assisting somebody else in so contributing.
He namechecked people who did just that.
Anyway, this is common. People commonly assist others with children, including family members and friends.
They also contribute in other ways. A teacher, for instance, has a career that directly contributes to the upbringing of the future generation. People in government make policies and provide services to people with children. Scientists, social workers, and a slew of others contribute in a variety of ways.
"Probably"? Not seeing it.
The "continuation of the species" is also not the only way to be a valuable part of society.
Thus proclaims a proud graduate of the Vance School of Messaging.
There are a lot of ways to contribute to the "continuance of the species" that aren't covered by the subsequent clarification of "probably", or else that clarification covers just about anybody (pay taxes that help fund disaster relief, saving the life of someone who subsequently has children). Conversely, having a few children but killing many more is a net negative, contribution wise.
Humans are complicated creatures, nor reproducing machines.
There are lots of ways to contribute to society other than "contributing to the continuance of the species."
Your generality is a reducto ad absurdum except you don't see the absurdum part.
That's like saying, "Humans are complicated creatures, not eating/breathing machines." Sure, but if you're not at least an eating/breathing machine, the complicated creature part stops mattering.
Likewise, but on a longer time frame, if that complicated creature isn't also a reproducing machine, after a while it stops mattering, because there aren't going to be humans around anymore.
You'd recognize that it was a disaster if not enough people wanted to farm, and we had a famine. Well, guess what: Not enough people want to reproduce, and we've got a famine of children throughout the entire developed world. It may be a slow motion disaster, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a disaster.
It's a slow enough disaster, with the early stages being comfortable enough, that most people ignore it. By the time it stops being a comfortable disaster, things getting really ugly by the time we solve it will be baked in.
But, go ahead, mock anybody who speculates how we might avoid the disaster, until it's too late to avoid it. That's part of the dynamic that makes it so hard to solve.
If trends continue I will never die we should make policies to account for my immortality.
You project by simply extrapolating in a timeframe that makes it invalid.
It’s dumb.
Well, yes, if you're referring to your own comment, it was indeed dumb.
The point is that we should make policies to account for your mortality. We are all mortal, and making sure we get replaced in time is an existential necessity.
My point was that blind extrapolation leads to stupid places.
You missed even that elementary understanding of real-world prediction.
I for one think we should stop eating kids.
But capretto is delicious.
recipe?
Capretto is a type of meat that can be used in multiple recipes Specifically, the meat is that of young goats.
The pun here, is that young goats are also known as "kids"
Wrong as usual.
All we are is “Reproducing Machines” that’s why Jay-hay made Peni and Vaginii, even if the Pete Booty-Judges get it mixed up.
Frank
Brett, you have this one-dimensional view that you contribute to the species only by reproducing more of the species. My first schoolteachers were Catholic Nuns. They contributed not by adding to the number of people, but by educating and raising the quality of the people here. There will always be those that reproduce. We also have to value those that add value to those here.
Good point.
I wondered how long J.D. Vance, who is afflicted by adult-onset superstition, would have stammered if someone had asked him about nuns.
Or George Washington.
Or Lindsey Graham.
(Graham says he still supports J.D. Vance, much as Ted Cruz still licks Donald Trump's ass every time Trump calls Mrs. Cruz a hideously ugly pig.)
“But I don’t mind people in policy making positions actually thinking about ways to accomplish important ends.”
As long as it is kept in thought – and no farther – I don’t have a problem.
If Harris becomes President, she will be the first in a very long time without any kids. Parents, on average, have more of a stake in the future than those without kids. That's what Vance said.
Vance made his comment before Buttigieg adopted kids, so Vance was not making a statement about adoption.
” And how does it make any sense that we’ve turned our country over to people who don’t really have a direct stake in it?”
Not “more of a stake.” Don’t really have a direct stake.
(And, there are a multitude of ways people have a direct stake in the nation’s future, with or without children.)
Kamala Harris’s stepchildren have a close relationship with her. Even their mother criticized the remark.
I’m not sure why a gay man is spoken in the same breath as “cat ladies.” Buttigieg also adopted less than a month after Vance made the remarks.
Vance was rather presumptuous about his future and how “miserable at their own lives” he would be with or without children. Buttigieg was also in the process of adoption at the time.
[The coverage repeatedly only says “2021” as the date of Vance’s remarks, but finally found something that gave the exact date.]
Vance didn't apologize to either in his latest remark.
A direct stake is more than an indirect stake.
Buttigieg was talking to an adoption agency, but the adoption opportunity arrived after Vance's remarks. Vance could not have known about it.
Your disparagement of George Washington is noted, you bigoted son of a bitch.
(You may be able to blame some of your deformity on your fucked-up parents.)
Go ahead and increase taxes. But first let us deduct inflation each year....whoa! Look at the politicians run!
Ilya ignores the racial angle. Vance is one of the big Orban fanbois. The "cat lady" smarm is his anger at white women not breeding as much as people like him and other racists like Heather Mac Donald think they should. He's too sexist to call them race traitors; he can't grant them that much agency. So he falls back to trailer park Nazi smears, because Baby Don likes hanging with those people, and hey, it got him this gig.
“The “cat lady” smarm is his anger at white women not breeding as much as people like him and other racists”
He hates minorities so much he married one, and is producing mixed children! Truly, his depravity knows no bounds.
Ask the hookers in Sun City "Bophuthatswana" where most of their clients came from.
See, this is how the left have made racism utterly unfalsifiable: You accuse somebody of racism? Doesn't matter that you can't show anywhere they've discriminated. If they have friends of a different race, mentioning it supposedly proves the charge. If they married somebody of a different race, it doubly proves the charge!
In fact, the only way to refute the charge of racism is to be a leftist, because all it means anymore is, "You're not one of us!"
Well, Kamala Harris married a Jew but that hasn't stopped some on the right from claiming that she’s anti-Israel. And the Democratic Party has had people of color on the ticket every election except one since 2008 (during which time the GOP has had exactly zero people of color on any of its tickets) but that doesn’t stop some on the right, including some regular commenters here, from trying to tie it to slaveholders and the KKK.
Look, whether or not Vance technically fits within the definition of racist, that was a racially tone-deaf comment. I don’t think tone-deafness necessarily equates with racism, though I do think it’s a fair question as to whether at least sub consciously that’s what he meant. And if he has any sense of self awareness he should certainly be asking why he would say something that tone deaf.
"Well, Kamala Harris married a Jew but that hasn’t stopped some on the right from claiming that she’s anti-Israel."
Read up. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_of_German_National_Jews
And when Harris’ policies or rhetoric even remotely approaches that of Naumann, perhaps you will have a pint.
But my point, which you completely blew past, is that the claim that someone can’t be a bigot because they married someone in the disfavored group applies with equal force to both Harris and Vance. You can’t give one the benefit of that argument without giving it to the other as well. It’s both or neither.
A pint or a point? I certainly won't be having a pint...it's nothing to celebrate.
But the point, which you missed, is that there's a history of "just going along" with the antisemitism that there isn't really with racism. We're just humoring those who are openly espousing antisemitic views. Which sounds great....you're not "really" antisemitic. You're just supporting those who are antisemitic.
Until it blows up and you go "we didn't really mean for them to go on a pogram and rape and kill several hundred Jews. We're sorry...for a couple weeks".
There's a reason you see a MAJORITY of Hate crimes in some areas target Jews. Despite making up less than 5% of the population, they get more hate crimes than every other group...combined.
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/hate-crimes-toronto-demkiw-update-1.7147113
Ah, but I didn't specify a pint of what :).
You and I are on the same side if we're talking about genuine acts of anti-Jewish prejudice, and so is Kamala Harris. And I'm as concerned as you are about the rise in genuine anti-Semitism.
But it's not anti-Semitic to disagree with the Israeli government over policy. I think Netanyahu's scorched earth Gaza policy is both a mistake and quite likely a war crime. Which does not mean I'm sympathetic to Hamas; if I could wave a magic wand and make Hamas disappear I absolutely would.
And unfortunately in the minds of some, disagreeing with Israeli government policy is anti-semitism. Kamala Harris and (most) of the Democratic party could not be firmer in their view that Israel has the right to exist. Doesn't mean committing what amounts to genocide in Gaza is the way to achieve that.
Israel fucked up when it:
1) elected a bunch of right-wing bigots, belligerents, and theocrats
2) installed a government of right-wing bigots, belligerents, and theocrats
3) appeased a growing group of indolent religious kooks
4) made support of Israel's right-wing policies and conduct a left-right divider in American politics
5) aligned with the losing side of the American culture war, the weaker side at the modern American marketplace of ideas, and the wrong side of American history
6) supported murderous, thieving, superstition-driven terrorists in the West Bank
7) committed war crimes in Gaza
8) became an international pariah
9) was an ingrate toward Americans who had provided the economic, military, and political skirts Israel has been hiding behind for decades
10) stuck with a corrupt, war-criming, theocratic, bigoted government
Most American's don't support right-wing belligerence -- especially when laced with superstition and bigotry -- at home. Why would anyone expect American -- especially younger, educated, better Americans -- to support that rubbish anywhere else.
Israel fucked up.
So fuck 'em. Let them try to fend for themselves. (Although we should encourage decent Israelis to get the hell out, ideally emigrating to the United States, while they still can.) We should cut Saudi Arabia loose simultaneously. Bigoted, violent right wing assholes of every superstitious flavor are to be shunned and scorned.
And his response the other day to white supremacists having attacked his wife was not, "Go fuck yourselves," but "Obviously she's not a white person" — note, that's an exact quote — "but she's such a good mom."
(He can't say "Go fuck yourselves," because these very fine people make up such a huge part of the MAGA base.)
If he said that, he sounds like as big a coward as Ted Cruz.
Let's hope Vance's children get therapy and maybe, someday, a better parental role model
Hey RAK.
Shouldn't you be supporting Vance? He's got a Ivy League education. Unlike that backwards, third tier school that Harris went to.
Are you referring to Howard, or UC Law?
He's flailing. I doubt he understands much about higher education, although he could be fluent in nonsense-based schooling.
You mean "University of California College of the Law, San Francisco" currently ranked...82nd?
Third tier...
Looks like RAK's normal rantings about education suddenly don't mean much.
It's about "framing" is another way of sayng Vance should lie about his beliefs. He was caught telling the truth about his disdain for the childless, (speaking of which) a Michael Kinsley gaffe.
Apart from the child tax credit, the deduction for dependents is mostly taken for children, although legally it could extend to other dependents. So the tax code does favor parents of children in another way.
EITC is a great policy.
Trust Vance to make it weird.
If your goal is to incentivize people to live beyond their means at taxpayer expense and not have consequences for poor decisions, then ok. EITC is just one example of literally rewarding people for poor life choices.
There is a lot of fraud in EITC. Also unintentional errors, because the people doing the forms may not understand the instructions fully (think about who is claiming the credit).
Society means people are not in their own.
Having a child is not a poor decision.
You are also making it weird.
Blacks don't act like they're in the same society as whites.
Hey empty slur machine!
Blacks are just folks. OTOH you don't act like you're in the same society as the rest of us.
OK, back to mute. You're top 5 most boring posters on here.
If Sar-Castro mutes some one in the Internet Woods, does the Bear taking a shit care?
Probably breathes a sigh of relief and takes another dump.
" Blacks don’t act like they’re in the same society as whites. "
This white, male blog's everyday bigotry must have been what persuaded Prof. Randy Barnett, Prof. Keith Whittington, and Prof. Stephen Sacks to join the Volokh Conspiracy.
They don't want to talk about it much, though, as people like them did in the 1940s and '50s. At least, not publicly.
Should eliminate it and tax children. Because all these years I've been basically paying for Bellmoore's and Drackman's tax credits, for their brats' education, and for any social services they need while daddy's away on sexual tourism in the Philippines and Israel. Children are a giant welfare scam
too bad you didn't spend anything on your own Ed-Jew-ma-Cation, so you'd know "basically" is basically a filler word that basically tells everyone that basically, at the end of the day (isn't "Until the Cows come Home" much better?) you're basically functionally illiterate.
Ok, other than the waste of 4 years of Jewish School for each girl, the rest of their Ed-Jew-ma-Cation was in Pubic High Screw-els (in one of North Atlanta's more "Diverse" suburbs, i.e. lots of Asians/Hispanics, few Knee-grows, and Pubic Colleges Georgia Tech and West Georgia/Georgia Tech, all paid for by the Georgia "Hope" Scholarship (where the mathematically illiterate throw their money away funding rich bastards like me's kids) ROTC and a partial Tennis Scholarship.
Oh, "you" (and me, and 300,000,000 other tax payers) also paid for their military flight training, and their current pay checks, Thanks!!!!
Frank
We'll have to agree to agree that you're an Idiot. First of all, EITC was signed into law by Gerald Ford, who was Functionally Retarded (everyone's using "Functionally" incorrectly, I'll do it to) in 1975 the maximum benefit was $400 ($2,400 in todays Shekels) Now it's almost $8,000
But there is an important economic effect of the EITC that enthusiasts tend to miss. The EITC is effectively a subsidy to low-wage employers, who are able to attract workers at lower wages than they otherwise would have to pay. Though some workers are partly compensated by the government via the EITC, workers who don't qualify end up with reduced wages. The heavy reliance on the EITC, rather than the minimum wage and the strength of trade unions, is one major reason why the U.S. leads the OECD in the share of jobs that pay poverty wages—a full 25.3 percent of jobs are poverty jobs, compared to 3 percent of jobs in Norway.
The EITC, in sum, puts downward pressure on wages. That pressure is worse in sectors where many workers are not covered. The EITC excludes older workers and many workers without children, as well as undocumented migrants. The EITC available to workers without children and to noncustodial parents is small and phases out at very low incomes: The income limit for single individuals is just $15,270, and for married couples filing jointly it is only $20,950. The effects are especially pronounced in the rapidly increasing personal and home health-care sector and the non-EITC workers in that sector.
and like Parkinsonian Joe, I thought all of that up myself*
Frank
"If I were advising Vance (don't worry, it's never going to happen!)"
Why would Vance ever listen to you? He's achieved more political success, I believe, than any libertarian politician in American history, and he isn't even 40 yet. Maybe you should be the one taking notes?
There is a certain poster that comes in so loaded for bear they become functionally illiterate, misreading anything they can find to pick a fight.
I'm just trying to figure out why a follower of the ideology that is best known for repeatedly achieving less than 1% of the popular vote feels confident enough in his policy preferences to talk down to, well, anyone. Ilya should stick to his own swim lane: advocating for immigration sans any restrictions whatsoever.
You're very angry at someone for by your take having no political threat.
He wasn't talking down to Vance or you; you're just itching for a fight.
again, "Functionally Illiterate"?? it's a phrase, uttered by Idiots, signifying nothing, you can either read, or you can't, and that was Faulkner, one of my favorite Klingers.
Frank "Yes I really do think"
And “Tail Gunner Joe” McCarthy also achieved more political success than any libertarian politician in the US. So what.
So, the point is valid: People who are members of incredibly, conspicuously unsuccessful political movements, should have the humility to not think they can offer good political advise to successful politicians.
It's like somebody who regularly loses at checkers presuming to give some advice to a chess grandmaster.
So, Vance took something unremarkable that we’re already doing, claimed it was something new, and framed it in such a way he pissed off half the country. Yup, that boy’s a political genius.
I know it's a few decades away, but how fucked up do you think Booty-Judge and his Wife Jizz's kids will end up? I'm thinking Chastity Bono/Charles Manson Jr territory
Frank
The child tax credit should be for married couples only. Not to encourage Shaniqua to squirt out another Shitavius or LeMarcus
Make sure Sy-Phillis, Chla-Madea, and Gonnor-hea get the message also.
And post-partum abortion should be legal. Supporting evidence can be found here:
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/07/27/j-d-vance-taxing-the-childless-and-the-power-of-framing/?comments=true#comment-10662132
Well there is the “Marriage Penalty”
and on top of that you have to pay higher taxes too! (Rim Shot)
I kid my wife, she’s cut me down to sex once a month,
Hey I’m lucky, 2 other guys she cut off completely!
I met one of the guys, I said “Who said you could have sex with my wife?” he said “Everybody!”
My Wife, she likes to have sex in the backseat of the car, but I have to drive.
One night I came home, there was a guy outside, jogging naked, I asked "How come" he said "Because you came home early!"
She’s a bad cook too, Oh is she a bad cook, she told me to take out the Garbage, I said “You cooked it, you take it out!”
She’s such a bad cook the Roaches in our house all hang themselves!
Frank “No Respect! No Respect at all!”
You seek to offer a vote to those under 18 who are at least as politically knowledgeable as the average adult. The average adult cannot pass the citizenship test. Are you sure you do not want a higher level?
You make the same category error that Prof. Somin does - that we're a democracy as some attempt to get at the best policies via the wisdom of crowds.
That if we just refined the crowds enough we'd get a group with enough civic knowledge that we'd make all the right decisions.
That describes the civil service. Speculating based on their education level, I'd bet the director-level folks in agencies can pass the citizenship test no prob.
Are you a big fan?
Vance comments were framed to be divisive. He tried to separate rather than unite. Sadly, Trump and Vance are not looking to the good of the American people but rather to their own good and doing it by pitting people against each other.
Yeah, right like Hilary Rodman’s “Deplorables”(in a cute “Basket”) or Parkinsonian Joes speech from the Gates of Hell didn’t do the same thing, I’ll take our chances over that cackling 1/4 Knee-grow
Frank
"Is the child tax credit actually a good idea? Should we increase it? I'm far from certain. "
Wow.
Ilya, take your usual arguments about immigration, then apply them to children. Each child born in the US adds tremendous value to the US economy and the US tax base over their lifetime (on average). You make all sorts of arguments how immigrants increase the US GDP, yet are strangely ignorant about the same arguments about children born and raised in the US?
I like the EITC and I'm not an open borders person.
But your 'wow' is your knee jerk nationalism talking.
If you just think everyone is the same and borders are a social construct we don't need, then there is no double standard here.
Don't discourage or encourage immigration or giving birth. Simple as.
I think that's wrong, but I at least take the trouble to figure out the alternate view here.
It's "knee jerk nationalism" to apply economic arguments to children being born in the country?
OK....
Tell you what. Why don't you give up all those nice benefits paid for by people who are born in this country.
To be utterly unable to understand applying the same standard to people whether or not they're born in this country is where you fail.
One can disagree with the concept, but you're utterly blind.
And THEN you go and forget my position as set out at the very start of my comment. Because when you knee jerks your brain stays quiescent.
Let's add a few further arguments about why children are important, and why they are critical to the long term financial stability of the country.
Each individual in the United States is currently responsible for $100,000 plus in federal debt. Each person. That means each time a person dies, that debt gets passed on to the next generation (the kids)
On the other side of that coin, the average cost to raise a child (for a family) in the US is currently $230,000 from age 0 to 17. Before College. Which can easily add another $50,000 to $200,000.
From a financial perspective, children are EXTREMELY useful for the government...in that they get a new citizen to pass that $100,000+ of debt to while simultaneously getting the parents to pay for the $200,000 plus in raising the child. On the other hand, the childless avoid that $200,000+ in raising children, and just leave the government with the debt.
With these types of costs, is it any surprise the number of children per family is dropping, and increasingly you see more no-kids couples? But from the government's perspective...it's very bad.
Thus, turning it around is critical to the long term financial health of the country.
You think of the children the same way the machines in the matrix think of humans.
If you're unable to think, that's on you. If you're unable to address financial realities of demographics, that's also on you.
Perhaps you need a better education.
In your view, people serve society not the other way around. How collectivist of you!
It's all about the domestic supply of infants.
It's bigger than that.
We need actual humans to keep things running when we all retire. The kids who are playing in sandboxes now are the ones who will be farmers, physicians, plumbers, welders, research scientists, road crew maintenance men, janitors, electricians, cooks in a nursing home, accountants, baristas, all of that when we are too old or unwilling to do that ourselves.
"I'll have robots wipe my butt!" Pray tell, who is designing, manufacturing, shipping, unloading, hauling, programming, and maintaining these robots, and what magical source of power do they have that doesn't require a functional electric grid (because ours is built and maintained by working adults, not retirees with limited mobility)? Oh right, we need people for that. Young people. People who are currently learning their ABCs.
In many ways, the childless are free riders: they do not do the work or incur the massive expense of raising the next generation, but they benefit tremendously from it.
Yet, many people are childless for reasons beyond their control (didn't meet someone in time, infertile), and there isn't an effective way to target the deliberate DINKs while somehow passing over them. You can't really do it in tax policy (and you might not want to, either), and no way in hell could you do it in public messaging.
Last I looked, childless taxpayers pay a lot of taxes for the support of other people's children, and few of them complain. (There's always Some Guy Somewhere, but nothing significant.)
It's to the benefit of everyone in the country that we have healthy, educated children, not just to the parents of those children. At least that's what I tell myself as I pay my property tax in a state and county where I have no children or grandchildren in public school.
I think you think we disagree. I do not think so.