The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Biden's Withdrawal From the Presidential Race Is Not Anti-Democratic
Among other reasons, it's actually supported by a large majority of voters, including most Democrats.

There's plenty of room for disagreement over whether President Biden's decision to withdraw from the presidential race is a good development, or not. But one common trope that deserves to be rejected is the idea that his withdrawal somehow undermines democracy. This argument was first deployed by die-hard Biden backers, but has more recently been taken up by Republicans. For example, GOP House Speaker Mike Johnson complains that "[h]aving invalidated the votes of more than 14 million Americans who selected Joe Biden to be the Democrat nominee for president, the self-proclaimed 'party of democracy' has proven exactly the opposite."
I am skeptical that Johnson and other GOP leaders actually care much about the will of Democratic voters. If they did, they would not have supported Trump's efforts to overturn the 2020 election (which, if it had succeeded, would have been a genuine massive affront to democracy). But even aside from the glaring hypocrisy, the argument has little merit.
Start with the obvious point that democracy does not require Biden or any other candidate to stay in the race if he or she concludes he wants to get out - even if the motive for dropping out is that the candidate believes there is no longer much chance of winning. Similarly, democracy doesn't preclude politicians, activists, and other elites from urging a candidate to leave the race, or even from threatening to withdraw their support if the candidate refuses to listen. All of this is itself a part of the democratic process. Subject to a few legal constraints, voters and elites can choose to give or withdraw their support, as they choose. And they can urge a candidate to drop out, if they want to.
If democracy is about following the will of the majority of voters, than Biden's withdrawal clearly qualifies. Survey data indicates a large majority of Americans, including some 65% of Democrats, wanted Biden to drop out, so the Democrats could select a different candidate. It's hard to argue that the democratic prerogatives of primary voters were somehow violated when most of those voters themselves wanted Biden out.
And it's also hard to argue that voter preference was a result of manipulation by elites. If anything, most voters regarded Biden's age and infirmity as a serious weakness long before most Democratic elites decided it was. Biden's troubling performance in the June 28 was a kind straw that broke the camel's back. Even viewers who don't follow politics closely and pay little attention to the views of elites could see something was wrong. My nine-year-old daughter - who had never previously watched a presidential debate - commented that Biden looked old and "overwhelmed." Was her reaction somehow dictated by nefarious Democratic elites? Pretty obviously not.
Moreover, democracy doesn't require parties to use primaries to select candidates in the first place. Throughout most of American history presidential candidates were selected by party leaders at conventions and in the proverbial "smoke-filled rooms." Democracy came in because those leaders had incentives to select candidates likely to be popular with general election voters. Indeed, one disadvantage of primaries is that they often tend to advantage candidates who cater to the extremes of the party's base, but are less appealing to general election voters, thereby actually being less responsive to the majoritarian preferences of the voting public, as a whole. In that respect, primaries are actually a relatively less democratic way of choosing candidates than selection by party elites would be.
I am no great fan of Kamala Harris (Biden's likely replacement on the Democratic ticket), and she is not the candidate I would have chosen, if it were up to me. But her ascension clearly has the support of a large majority of Democratic voters. Democracy doesn't require the party to choose a candidate I like, and it certainly doesn't require it to choose one the Republicans would prefer to run against.
The fact that Biden's withdrawal wasn't undemocratic does not necessarily mean it was a good thing. I have long emphasized that democratic processes aren't always good, and should be constrained in many ways. Such constraints are justified by the dangers of voter ignorance, tyranny of the majority, and other pathologies. In this particular case, I happen to agree with the majority of the public in thinking that Biden's withdrawal was, on balance, a good thing. But it would be wildly inconsistent for me to argue I'm right merely because majority public opinion - for once! - happens to be on my side.
If you're a Democrat who thinks Biden is preferable to Kamala Harris or a Republican who would rather have Biden as an opponent because he would be easier to beat, you have reason to lament his downfall. But you should not condemn it as undemocratic.
In addition to the argument that Biden's withdrawal was undemocratic, there is the closely related - but much more ridiculous - theory that it was a "coup." I'm not going to argue against this idea at any great length. Those who believe it are probably beyond rational persuasion. I will only say that a real coup involves violence, or at least the threat of it. The January 6, 2021 attack on the Capitol is plausibly described as a coup, though it is more accurate to call it an insurrection. Biden's withdrawal wasn't anything like that. Perhaps he got a raw deal; but a coup it was not.
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I believe the actual complaint is not that Biden dropping out is anti-democratic, but that waiting until it is too late for primary voters to have any say in his replacement was.
Biden dropping out this late is anti-democratic only if him not running was the intent all along. Sorry, that's not the truth. Instead, he dropped out this late because of his debate performance. If he handled the debate like he handled the NATO press conference, he would be the nominee.
I agree. Presidential campaigns are brutal, and one incident can make or break a candidate.
The big boy NATO press conference was a national disgrace and embarrassment. As is a puppet president who was propped up as a candidate and then discarded when his disabilities become too apparent too hide in favor of the democrat party's preferred option. Whatever this is, democratic is not the word.
Thank you for your insight, world renowned advocate for democratic principles.
Of course, I should apologize for my remarks. We should never question the primacy and control of the Democratic Party and its commitment to imposing democracy. The party is the leading and guiding force of Soviet, er.. American society, and the nucleus of its political system, of all state and public organizations, is the Communist Party of the Soviet Union … I mean the Democratic Party.
As always, your cogent analysis is remarkable.
Hey, I apologized. As I've said before, there's no pleasing some communi...er Democrats.
"Hey, I apologized."
Not only an insightful genius, but humble to boot.
I’m almost tempted to wish a Harris presidency on you but I would never do that to a dumb animal. This is where you say "your compassion is remarkable"
Riva-bot is not programmed to give any other reply today!
Now you idiots are tag teaming it? When you guys? can think of a witty response, don't keep it to yourselves.
RIVA DEMANDS WIT!
NO DON'T CALL HIM A ROBOT THAT IS NOT FUNNY!
Good luck with that Sarcastr0, never saw a funny communist yet.
Which is surprising, given Riva sees communists everywhere!
Even, perhaps especially, where they aren't.
Are you meaning the NATO press conference where he called Putin the president of Ukraine?
Biden didn't get this way overnight. He has been declining for years, and yet his condition was actively hidden until one event that was out of his control, on neutral ground, and could not be edited or rescheduled to when he had a good night. It well known that he was doing badly for years, and the party heads had to have known just how bad he had gotten.
By failing to disclose this months ago, the Biden/Harris/DNC group denied the voters the ability to choose.
Harris taking over may be the least-bad choice at this point in time. However, the only way it got to this point was deliberate manipulation, deception, and subversion of the primary process
The debate wasn't even neutral ground, he had moderators who were partial to him. It just wasn't enough of an edge.
At the time, I couldn't figure out why Trump's campaign so readily agreed to a format that was so obviously and strongly stacked against Trump. Now I get it. Trump would have agreed to anything just to get Biden in an unscripted setting where his infirmity would be visible to the entire world.
I can't quite decide whether it would have been better for Trump to delay exposing Biden until after he had the nomination locked down, for maximum disruption, or as early as possible, to have maximum time for Harris to self-destruct. But I'm leaning towards the latter; Unlike Biden, she isn't precipitously declining, but she's still bad enough at this that she won't bear much exposure to the public.
The moment she opens her mouth, her numbers will decline. The American electorate will see what 99% of Democrat primary voters saw in 2020....absolutely nothing to recommend her for POTUS.
You have to consider who she will be running against. The choice is not between Harris and a decent candidate. Remember, El Puerco barely squeaked out an electoral college win in 2016 (an election that even he didn't think he could win) running against the most hated woman in America, In 2020 he got his ass kicked by Biden which is about as close to being beaten while running unopposed as is possible.
One thing about Harris, she is educable. In between now and election day, she will have the support and training of very competent people. For Republicans and their soapers to underestimate her ability to perform is dangerous fun.
You forgot to mention her charisma. Magnetic. And that infectious laugh. Not to mention her moderate and balanced views on the issues. Her brilliant handling of the border crisis her boss created is beyond dispute. And her mastery of the Venn diagram cannot be overlooked. She also likes to expound on the nature of time and space, and yellow buses too.
Trump supporters attacking a candidate on cogency is quite the trip!
Well I'll concede he doesn't have her charming laugh, but few humans do.
Where's the evidence of that? She is a notoriously bad boss as VP with the vast majority of her staff quitting in the 3 years of her tenure. She has a habit of ignoring her Veep homework and blaming staff when it blows up in her face.
@PeteRR
She is a notoriously bad boss as VP with the vast majority of her staff quitting in the 3 years of her tenure.
Do you apply the same criticism to Trump?
Given how many of former senior members of his administration don't just criticize him, but argue that he's unfit, that could get pretty awkward.
Of course she's running against Trump, and I'll gladly concede that if Trump were running against somebody who'd actually had to prove they had national appeal by winning a primary he'd be in trouble. If Biden hadn't had dementia, and had stayed in the race, it would have been a tough election for Trump.
But he's not running against such a candidate. He's running against Kamala Harris, who tanked so badly in her own home state back in 2020 that she didn't even bother being on the ballot for the nomination. Who's only going to be on the ballot this time because she got handed the nomination without having to contest it.
And, who's she running against? A guy who DID win multiple contested primaries, DID win a Presidential election once, albeit narrowly, and lost another one narrowly against somebody who'd kicked Kamala's political ass.
Trump has a proven record of being politically competitive, and Harris has a proven record of tanking. Being handed the nomination on a silver platter doesn't change that.
It's not going to be a 49 state blowout, like Reagan/Mondale. That sort of thing is impossible now, absolutely anybody who runs as a Democrat is guaranteed to carry a lot of states no matter how awful a candidate they are. To some extent the reverse is true, too.
But she's polling badly in swing states, and Trump hasn't even started in on her. Go to 538, and take a look at her numbers: Her approval rating is at a solid 37.8%. Even Trump is at 42.3%.
Four years ago, Republicans wailed at how Biden had dementia (he didn't, and probably still doesn't) and was too old to be President. 81 million voters chose Biden and Harris, assured by the Republicans that Harris would be President (or at least Acting President) in that term. That seems like more voters approved the possibility of Harris as President than would have in any primary contest, where the number of voters would be fewer and the possibility more tenuous.
Now Harris faces Trump, who is older than Biden in 2020 and demonstrates cognitive failings on a regular basis, and demonstrated since the 2020 election that he should never again be President (insurrection, civil judgments, felonies). Harris polls as well as Biden or better, and Trump, who lost debates and election to a guy you still insist had dementia, was already losing ground against Biden. Really, you should whistle a jauntier tune when you walk past the graveyard.
Magister 15 mins ago
"Four years ago, Republicans wailed at how Biden had dementia (he didn’t, and probably still doesn’t)"
Still believing that lie -
Again, I'm not saying that Trump is perfect, far from it. I'm saying that Harris has no track record of winning to suggest that she can beat Trump, instead she has a track record of losing, badly.
But maybe her deficiencies as a candidate are utterly irrelevant; Democrats DO hate Trump with the burning fury of a thousand exploding suns, and maybe that hate will be enough to cause you to turn out in record numbers to vote AGAINST him, regardless of who you're nominally voting for.
I wouldn't rule that out; It would nicely explain how a doddering gaffe machine hiding in his basement was able to beat Trump, though barely, back in 2020.
But, frankly, that's not how the polling and EC projections look right now.
The Dobbs decision turned the red wave of 2022 into barely a ripple (depending at least in part on candidates like George Santos). Trump's only victory was an electoral college win over an opponent who was demonized by Republicans for a quarter of a century, and depended on third party candidates and many voters knowing him only as an amusing buffoon on reality television. In 2020, the advantage of incumbency was not enough, and since then he has distinguished himself only in things that should work against him (insurrection, liability for being a rapist, liability for fraud, convicted of 34 felonies and indicted for 50 more, promises of retribution and dictatorship). Polling looks good for Trump now because the MAGA cult is all in for him, but that isn't enough to win by itself, and it's likely to continue to erode as non-MAGA start paying attention.
Harris may have deficiencies as a candidate, but she has won past elections, and she probably wins back a lot of support in demographics where Biden had lost support. Joe Biden wasn't a serious consideration for President before he served as Vice President. The presidents who won with no previous electoral success were either popular and successful generals (Grant, Eisenhower) or exceedingly bad presidents (of them, Hoover and Trump both presided over massive job losses).
"Trump’s only victory was an electoral college win over an opponent who was demonized by Republicans for a quarter of a century,"
Where simply pointing out the horns and cloven hooves counts as demonizing... Hillary's greatest political triumph was persuading a critical mass of Democrats that her track record of corruption going back to her early days in Little Rock was really a product of Republicans recognizing her as a potential President decades in advance, and setting out to smear her to stop it from happening.
Yes, Harris has a past record of winning elections, and if all she had to do was win California, maybe a few other similar states, she'd be a shoe in. Though even in California she was a complete failure in the Presidential primaries.
The problem she faces is that she has to win states that AREN'T California. And she has demonstrated no capacity to do that at all.
Biden, for all his deficits, had some appeal to the political center. Harris has none.
But, as I say above, it's still possible that Democrats would turn out in winning numbers even for a total zero, just out of hate for Trump. Republicans better not rest on their opponent being Harris, and work hard to secure their own turnout.
Brett Bellmore believes in less likely things than literal horns and cloven hooves. But he does not believe in the right wing smoke machine, only in the fire nobody could ever find.
Harris, as vice presidential candidate, won in 2020. Joe Biden's age and Republican claims of infirmity had to cause voters to contemplate the vice presidential candidate beyond what was typical in other elections. Joe Biden wasn't likely to win a presidential election until after he became Obama's vice president; warm bucket of whatever, it does raise a politician's national profile.
Here's some speculation on Harris 2024 from before the 2020 election.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/could-kamala-harris-win-the-presidency-in-2024-heres-what-history-tells-us/
Of course there's a right-wing smoke machine. And a much larger left-wing one.
But Hillary came by her reputation for corruption honestly, so to speak.
Any convictions? Any indictments? Eponymous charity shut down? Disgorgement of profits from fraud ordered? Insurrections incited? Sexual assaults committed? Democrats don't need a smoke machine, only to point out the fires.
This attempted retconning of Trump as a well informed and strategic player is quite a trip.
"retconning of Trump"
His campaign people are very good this year, unlike 2000.
I don't disagree.
But this looks a lot less like 3-D chess and more like they were caught off guard by Biden dropping out, even after 3 weeks of growing furor from voters, money people, and luminaries.
I don’t think Trump’s campaign ever even considered the possibility of Biden dropping out. I think they just hoped that the debate would give Trump a lead over Biden–not drive Biden out of the race altogether.
"caught off guard"
They had ads up on Pa. TV yesterday, perhaps elsewhere.
LOL.
Trump was still tweeting about Biden this morning.
Politico, or some other outlet, released an internal memo from May, they were planning this for months.
I love this fantasy world you people live in. Everyone was expecting this EXCEPT the Trump campaign, one of the few groups that should be planning for this contingency.
This is as hilarious as you people now pretending Kamala is some sort of great politician.
Harris isn't great. But she's also not a grifter felon rapist and the oldest nominee ever. For some reason, old grifter felon rapists are all the rage within a certain segment of Americans (the quarter who are retarded, presumably), so it won't be the cakewalk for Harris that it oughtta be, but still a muffinwalk.
I assume you meant 2020, but… no. I mean, they were caught completely flatfooted by Biden's withdrawal from the race.
I mean, they were caught completely flatfooted by Biden’s withdrawal from the race.
That must explain why they already airing anti-Harris campaign ads.
You have to remember that Adolf Hitler gave such a good impression of a bumbling fool that the mainstream conservatives thought that had him in their pocket when they made him a puppet chancellor with little real power (or so they thought) in January 1933.
It’s a ruse. -Behavior that looks like idiocy is a mask, a bluff, a strategem, to deceive and baffle opponents.
I don’t think Trump is any different. Trump has gone from being a complete outsider to being the absolute master of his party. And he’s probed the US government’s weaknesses and knows who to replace or run around to avoid future efforts to constrain his power next time.
I don’t think you can have that kind of track record and be an idiot. Trump is no more an idiot than Hitler was. If some one is highly successful at a very difficult strategic task, it’s best not to look behind the surface bluff and admit one is dealing with someone who understands strategy.
No, no, it's not a ruse, Trump is an idiot.
Every press conference, every interview, every insider leak confirms that.
Now, he has a ton of experience in sales and media, which translates extremely well to the modern GOP, but ask him to do anything of substance and he's revealed to be an idiot.
You know, disagreeing with you on policy isn't the same thing as being an idiot. Excepting rare people like Hank Johnson, of Guam tipping over fame, there aren't any actual idiots in high level politics. They got filtered out losing when they ran for dog catcher.
The people who report Biden's an idiot aren't saying he has bad policy ideas, they're saying he's really an idiot.
And he also does not give interviews that make anyone have a lot of faith in his focus, judgement, or intelligence.
MAGA doesn't really care about his brain, they just like that he will do revenge on the right people. Well, the ones that aren't so anti-institutionalist they kinda want a civil war.
He called Putin the president of Ukraine before the press conference. He called Trump the VP at the press conference. Had the debate been limited to those two senior moments, Biden is the nominee.
I think it is likely that Biden and his staff hid the extent of his decline. And certainly hiding relevant information from the voters is bad for democracy. But, they did not want nor intend for him to drop out at any point. So again, the fact he had to drop out now against their wishes is not anti-democratic.
And to Brett, no. I am not buying conspiracy theories there was an intent to have Biden not run and to have it go down too late for a primary season.
Josh R 14 mins ago
Flag Comment
Mute User
"He called Putin the president of Ukraine before the press conference. He called Trump the VP at the press conference. Had the debate been limited to those two senior moments, Biden is the nominee."
Are you just repeating the democrat party propaganda or do you actually believe the democrat party propaganda?
What part of that do you feel like is Democratic party propaganda?
Randal 17 hours ago
Flag Comment
Mute User
What part of that do you feel like is Democratic party propaganda?"
Randal - What part isnt the democratic party propaganda? Try to be honest -
"He called Trump the VP at the press conference," for example, is not Democratic party propaganda. Or any of the other statements you quoted.
Biden has been prone to gaffs of this sort for decades. He's somewhat worse now, to be sure, but he has done this sort of thing forever.
There's plenty of other stuff you can legitimately cite to make your point. Or is there?
Was it "hidden" or "well known," Brett?
(D)epends on if your eyes were open or not. Why did it take until last week for you to see it?
"Why did it take until last week for you to see it?"
Oh, he saw it long ago too. He was just lying about it.
His eyes saw it, but his brain was programmed differently by his braintenders.
There's a difference.
No, he was just lying because he has an intense irrational hate of Trump.
Nice try, but you guys have been fabricating this claim for five years now. You said it in 2020, and then Biden humiliated Trump in a couple of debates (and Trump pussied out of the third debate as a result). At the beginning of this year, you guys invented a mystery anti-dementia drug because Biden's state of the union performance made you guys look so stupid.
fabricating this claim
Keep telling yourself that if it makes you feel better.
he provided examples. You just flounced.
What was going on in the 2020 debates? In the State of the Union? In the budget negotiations where the GOP ended up backing down?
David Nieporent 17 hours ago
Flag Comment
Mute User
Oh, he saw it long ago too. He was just lying about it.
Nice try, but you guys have been fabricating this claim for five years now"
DN - its been known by every honest observer which obviously doesnt not include you.
As an expert in Internet psychology, I can confidently say that every honest observer perceives that you have some kind of inferiority complex manifesting as a reverse imposter syndrome.
Sacastro - its been known by every honest observer - which like most woke leftist - it doesnt include you.
Honest commentator on the blog - it never has and never will include you.
Yeah it’s a sign of maturity and confidence to call everyone who doesn’t agree with your takes dishonest.
Just like sockpuppeting.
How could whether one's eyes are open or not change whether something was hidden?
It's not that difficult a concept to understand, Dave.
That you screwed up your metaphor? No, that's not difficult to grasp.
And now that his incompetence has suddenly become "well known" Dave, you of course will demand his removal from office?
And what does that say about that cackling thing that she covered up the corrupt reptile's incompetence? Seems rather to show a significant lack of judgement, and contempt for this country, to let this demented creep exercise all the powers of the presidency knowing his condition. Hell, she went out of her way to lie about it.
Bot has its new talking points programmed in.
Women aren't supposed to laugh too heartily.
What the hell kind of women do you hang out with?
Riva-bot struggles with context!
I dare you to sit through a Kamala rally, without alcohol. Or the campaign paying you.
So Dave, does that mean she didn’t cover up the corrupt reptile’s lack of fitness for office? Or are you still working on your latest gaslighting BS? Looking forward to it.
Seriously, the bot needs to be reprogrammed to learn what "gaslighting" is.
Not sure I understand the bot thing. Do you think my comments have the hallmarks of a Russian intel operation? Maybe you want to get the intel pukes the Biden campaign hired to write another letter?
I don't understand it either. How could someone who posts with such incisive wit, charm, humility, and clever originality be likened to a bot? Any discerning observer would recognize that your contributions to these discussions are truly nonpareil.
Bot not programmed to respond to this so reverts to old programming where it references the 'letter.'
Tell you what little Dave, I think I’ll borrow your clever response and attach it to every response so we can trade such retarded comments for the next for few years? Let’s give it a try.
Looks like the little David bot needs to be updated to understand the laptop letter lie has been exposed. If you weren’t a bot, you’d appreciate how damn funny that is.
Bot not programmed to respond to this so reverts to old programming where it references the ‘letter.’
So now your mental illness has you reverting to arguing like a middle-schooler.
Are you asking Brett or Ben, Brandon?
I would agree that him not running was not HIS intent all along.
It may well have been the intent of other players in the Democratic party, who were aware of his deterioration, and that he couldn't go the distance.
He could not have handled the debate the way he handled the Press conference, for a number of reasons.
1. In a debate you unavoidably interact with at least one person who is hostile to your interests. NOT trying to make it easy on you.
2. They will be unwilling to follow a script you provide.
3. A debate lasts longer than a press conference, and Biden was visibly starting to lose it towards the end of the press conference.
I think the COVID was the straw that broke the camel's back if it wasn't already broken. His physical health seems to be deteriorating and he may not have the stamina to continue the race and also face the increasing pressure to drop out.
I'm sure he gets all his vaccinations but he's 81 and already getting frail. I hope he doesn't have serious complications.
Nah, there was a reporting from a few days before that he was internally discussing how a step down might occur.
The moment that leaked it was obvious the decision was made.
Ahh yes unspecified Other Players.
Other Players are apparently very busy in Brett's world. Seems like a pretty shadowy place, so many unseen, unnamed Players whose presence can only be be detected via implication and innuendo from those especially sensitive to them.
Like Brett.
Right Sarcastr0, there's no palace intrigue, or party politicking going on behind the scenes. What you see is what you get!
People maneuvering and positioning only happens in da movies! Not in real life!!
In real life, Democrats are noble and altruistic! That's why they have super delegates, so the most noble and most altruistic Democrats can nobly and altruistically pick the party's leadership!
What horrifies me are the reports that his initial meetings with congress went so poorly in 2021 that he stopped meeting with them.
WTF. How is that not a dereliction of duty?
I hadn't heard that and am quite skeptical. That would have been leaked in a heartbeat by just about every Republican in Congress.
It was the Dem House caucus. He ramble for an hour not asking for what he wanted. After he walked out, Pelosi sharpened up the issue and got everybody on board.
Still makes no sense.
Biden's met with Congressional Republicans plenty of times over his term - famously rolled them on budget negotiations back in the McCarthy era.
But also after the midterms to figure out a way forward for his agenda, and on Ukraine, etc.
He came from the Senate, talking to Congress was not an uncommon tactic of his, and not just to the Dems.
If there was anything seriously and evidently wrong, we'd have heard about it. Unless you think the GOP was in on the coverup.
Sheesh, I knew Biden was old, but really.
For some Republicans, the original McCarthy era never ended.
(A friend canvassed in 1968 in rural Wisconsin for Eugene McCarthy and met some who were enthused at Tailgunner Joe's comeback.)
Rolling Republicans like McCarthy is about as challenging as rolling a marble down a 89 degree oiled ramp. They come in actually wanting to be rolled, after all.
Yes, McCarthy ad the entire GOP caucus was doing a conspiracy with Biden, covering for Biden’s age and handing Biden victories because he was a secret Dem.
You can believe anything you want if you expand your conspiracy wide enough.
Gets to sound pretty stupid when you start writing it down, though.
So you seem to agree that Biden thought he was capable to run and serve again, until the debate fallout eventually convinced him he wasn't.
I don't see why the non-primary is less democratic than any other incumbent not being primaried.
No, it wasn’t that he became convinced he was incapable of running and serving again. Rather, he recognized his support for running and serving again had evaporated.
Though the evaporation of that support was because others became convinced that he was incapable of running and serving again.
So you seem to agree that Biden thought he was capable to run and serve again, until the debate fallout eventually convinced him he wasn’t.
You seem to be terribly confused (possibly as badly as Biden himself) about who believes what.
If he had been successful in perpetrating his fraud among the electorate, he'd still be the nominee.
Removing him from the ballot is arguably the most democratic option at this point.
How was anything a fraud? He's getting senile but so's Trump. It's not like he was secretly diagnosed with dementia or something.
All campaigns try to frame their candidate in the best possible light. Especially Trump's! Is there anything about Trump's campaign that isn't a lie?
His debate performance was predictable, though. It was a likely possible outcome and everyone knew that.
I don't think Biden himself intended to drop out, but there was certainly a Plan B in place that was probably considered by some to be as likely as Plan A or more likely.
There is a big difference between a plausilbe outcome (that you hope doesn't happen) and an intended outcome. Only the latter is anti-democratic.
So predictable, in fact, that all of MAGA, from the bottom of the barrel to the top of the bottom of the barrel, were drenched in pre-debate flop-sweat screeching that Biden would be “jacked up” to get him through it.
Probably predictable for people who spent a lot of time around Biden, not so predictable to people who only got to see him at carefully scripted events. Even if they were hearing rumors from the former group, they weren't seeing it themselves.
Merely having a bad debate is not a reason to drop out, especially after having the primary wrapped up. Many politicians have had bad debates in the past. Very, very, few withdrawn from the election just because of it, especially after having the nomination wrapped up.
The debate was merely a very visual sign of the real issue. Biden was not mentally competent to be president. And this sign couldn't be avoided.
The issue is...people within Biden's circle knew this. They knew it, they hid it from the voters, until the nomination was entirely wrapped up. Until AFTER the voters would have a fully informed opportunity. These people knew incumbent presidents almost always win renominations if they run. These also knew that Biden was incapable of a second term. So, they put Biden out there to "win" the nomination, fully aware Biden would need to be pulled before the general election. Thus they could replace Biden with their hand-picked candidate...no need for a pesky primary because "there wasn't time" now.
They were not fully aware Biden would have to be pulled before the general election.
They were fully aware of Biden's condition and that he would not be able to serve a second term. And they hid that from the voters. Putting Biden out there as a "fake" candidate. To be pulled before the general election. Or perhaps, potentially even worse, after a general election which he "won".
Repeating your claim that Biden was known to be a fake candidate does not make it more persuasive.
They were not fully aware Biden would have to be pulled before the general election.
Only if you assume that "they" were willfully blind morons.
Professor X, folks!
But as mentioned there is no requirement to have primaries. The primary system itself is very flawed. How many people in the primary process don't get their pick because the candidate has dropped out before their own state's primary? It is really hard to make the case that this is undemocratic. Kamala Harris is very lucky, but she would likely have been in a very favorable position had Joe Biden dropped out ahead of the primary process.
Yeah, she might actually have broken the 1% mark.
You know, THIS time.
Joe Biden ran for the Democratic nomination twice before (he had explored several other times), in 1988 and 2008. In the first he had to drop out before Iowa; in the second, he made it to Iowa, finished 5th with less than 1% of the vote, and immediately dropped out. Amazingly, — after having served as vice president — he was able to win pretty easily in 2020.
It's shocking how significantly more experience and a highly visible platform for publicity helps a candidate. No reason to think it wouldn't have done the same for Harris here, especially since none of her potential rivals would have had any time to gear up a campaign.
Harvested unverified mail in ballots in unmonitored drop boxes give quite a boost too.
Woah, that's an illegal comment. That harms our Sacred Democracies that Die in Darkness And Also Die With Reasonable Ballot Security!
So the theory is that Biden rigged the 2020 primary too?
You'll have to ask Bernie Sanders about that.
Another perspective is that the best candidate the Democrat Party could find now is one they rejected in 1988 as a plagiarist and in 2008 as an ineffectual child-sniffer who spent decades in the Senate doing racist, sexist things.
And another perspective is that the best candidate the Republicans could find for three straight presidential elections is a lying, tax cheating rapist who paid someone to take college entrance exams for him. And he's added to his disqualifications year after year; promises of retribution and to be a dictator, civil judgments, felony convictions, impeachments, insurrection, incompetence. Not surprisingly, Democrats have favored the seemingly safest choice.
Yeah, but how many guys are winning golf club championships as they approach 80?
After Trump loses, someone should arrange a televised golf match, Donald Trump against that guy from North Korea whom Trump called “a great golfer.” It would have been even better with the North Korean golfer’s father, who once had 11 holes-in-one in a round, but that guy died. Trump against the son should be a fair contest and a stirring, illumination match.
Maybe, but they apparently picked the right child-sniffer, since he won. Oh that's right, you still believe he didn't win.
If you want to say that we’re in a pathological situation in both parties, I wouldn’t disagree. In a sane world neither Biden nor Harris would have been allowed anywhere near the Democratic nomination, and the Republicans would have nominated somebody more like DeSantis.
The Democratic and Republican parties are both sick, though in different ways. Pelosi’s generation of Democratic leadership fratricided the next generation coming up, to avoid challenges to their own rule, leaving a huge hole in the bench. While the Republican establishment have been deliberately killing off challengers who actually represented their party’s voting base, in order to keep entrenched.
Trump came along and had too much resources and non-political fame for them to kill off. So conservative Republicans settled for him despite his obvious drawbacks. But his displacing the GOP establishment will clear the way for the next generation of Republicans who actually represent Republican voters to advance, starting in 2026.
Meanwhile the Democrats’ next generation consist mostly of maniacs like Newsom, whose appeal are limited to deep blue areas, because they forced all the moderate Democrats to toe the line set in those areas; They’ve got nobody with centric appeal left, they’ve driven out the Manchins and Gabbards.
I don't think one generation can fratricide the next generation.
But plenty of vice presidential picks for Harris who are moderate Democrats, so reports of fratricides are greatly exaggerated. Republicans have purged far more of their non-Trump supporting members, of any generation.
There's no requirement to have primaries, but there's at least a moral obligation to be honest and fair with the people you claim to represent, especially if you fuck around with the rules for primaries as thoroughly as the DNC did this year (in an effort to ensure Biden win the nomination).
I'm not sure the party who's main game plan involves rabid gerrymandering and voter suppression really holds the moral high ground in this debate.
The DNC did not in fact "fuck around with the rules for primaries" in any way.
And what are you calling the totally unnecessary early 'virtual primary', then? Any actual reason for it vanished within days of it being proposed, the only reason for retaining it was to keep the opposition to Biden, and now Harris, from having time to snowball before the convention.
What has become of Brett the formalist, asking if anything is ‘totally unnecessary?’
What sense does that remark make? The virtual primary was, explicitly, an ad hoc effort to accommodate Ohio's soon altered deadline. It became unnecessary within days of being proposed, as you well know.
The plan was retained solely to get the nomination pinned down before opposition to Biden, and now Harris, had time to reach critical levels.
Well, unlike Biden, the opposition to Harris is probably doomed even without such a maneuver; She's just a lousy candidate within normal parameters. But Harris understandably doesn't want to take any chances.
There isn't an opposition to Harris, and sticking with a previous decision can hardly be called a "maneuver."
I'm not calling it anything, because it doesn't exist. They moved the convention date up by making it virtual; it's not a "primary." The primaries ended on June 8.
There is often a significant gap between being legal and being right. Many things are legal, but still wrong. The nomination of Harris is legal.
On the other hand, I cannot see any interpretation of election interference that does not incorporate hiding that the candidate is incapable of doing the job. We had Trump convicted of this for calling an NDA payment "legal expenses". However, failing to disclose that Biden is severely disabled doesn't count?
Good to see you insurectionists are so concerned about us Democrat voters feelings and sensibilities regarding getting a nominee. Yeah, no, we're good
I promise you no one cares about the feelings of Democrat voters, not even Democrat party officials and other Democrat elites.
Well, it's our country too, even if we don't intend to vote for Biden it was in our interest to have a president that could meet minimum standards of lucidity.
And I did my best to point out the issue, in good faith I might add, since as you should be able to clearly see by now that it would have been to the Democrats benefit to resolve the issue 10 months ago (when I posted this for example https://reason.com/volokh/2023/08/31/thursday-open-thread-152/?comments=true#comment-10218916 )
But no, in fact you probably internally blame conservatives for bringing it up over the past year for forcing you to stick with Joe.
And now you are trying to convince yourself that the number one reason that you couldn't primary Joe, Kamala, was your best solution all along.
However all this came about, I'm ecstatic. Voter enthusiasm is stratospheric at the moment. If this was Republican's doing, our eternal thanks
1. The right's been talking shit about Biden having like Stage 8 Alzheimers and getting owned for it since 2020. That still remains demonstrably nonsense.
They're not to blame for anything except gullibly believing every 5 second Youtube clip that came their way.
2. Yes, plenty of Dems did not like how old Biden was. Not sure why you think that's some big insight. I expect you also understand why everyone was going to be fine with him being the candidate absent some manifest inability to be President.
3. People are saying Kamala is a good solution. It's the right that works very hard to convince themselves their candidate is the God Emperor who will remake America into the 1950s that never was.
Sarcastro 11 months ago:
“Biden is juggling multiple financial fraud conspiracies, turning America irredeemably communist, and also totally senile and unable to perform his duties.
Y’all keep fucking that age chicken, but it’s at variance with all the other stuff you’re trying, and I think that’s part of why it never caught on. Well, that and all the bad faith ‘Biden misspoke – proof he’s a vegetable!’ nonsense.
The bottom line is that the dude’s lost a step, but is clearly effective. Perhaps just because he’s been blessed with a shallow and fractured opposition, but until he McConnell locks up, the baseline thesis is manifestly disproven.”
From “manifestly disproven” then to “Not sure why you think that’s some big insight” now.
You’ve had quite a journey. I am still in the same place.
But I guess it finally caught on.
Well, you've been caught, Sarcastr0. To please the insurrectionists you're gonna have try and get Joe back on the ticket. There's nothing we hate worse here at Volokh than hypocrisy.
He is so full of shit. It is amusing. Keep reminding him at opportune times, like Sandra (OBL) does with Arthur.
Always love when someone is inspired to do an archive dive.
But yeah, as I said, it was the right bullshitting. The State of the Union was you folks eating crow.
And then you shut up for a while, and went back to it.
And of course you're still overplaying your hand, diagnosing all sorts of stuff with weak evidence.
Because you can't help yourself. Conspiracy and speculation is a big part of your politics now.
Great comment! Rule #1 for winning internet arguments, NEVER admit you're wrong and ALWAYS attack the opponent.
You should know, you wrote the book in Internet Winning, Champ!
I guess I’ll stick up for Sarcastr0. He was right then and is right now. Biden had lost a step. He was — and is — clearly effective though. Which is why he hasn’t resigned.
And, despite that, plenty of Dems didn’t like how old he was, both because it was an electoral liability no matter how true it was, and because it was at least somewhat true. Again, he had lost a step. And it’s a big difference to think about him staying in office for another six months versus another 54 months.
The SOTU / debate / press conference didn’t qualitatively change any of that. He doesn’t have dementia. He's always been a gaffer. But he didn’t, like, ask for his mother. He’s simply senile and frail. They did quantitatively change our idea of just how senile and frail he’s gotten, at least in his worst moments… enough to tip the scales against the viability of his candidacy. That’s it, folks.
"He was right then and is right now. Biden had lost a step.He was — and is — clearly effective though. Which is why he hasn’t resigned."
Nobody ever loses just one step and stops, aging is not a series of long plateaus, its a accelerating slope with bumps and dips.
And I would think Biden should resign if it weren't for the Kamala Problem.
Sure, an accelerating slope which makes it hard to want to elect him for another term, but not hard for him to go for another six months. Or we'll see, maybe he does get worse and resign. I think he's very likely to resign the Presidency in October. That'll get this lot riled up quick!
I mean, you understand that you're arguing against the MAGA position here, right? They're claiming that Biden was senile years ago, rather than that it accelerated recently (which is what all the evidencre says).
Kazinski, I like how you keep fixating on Biden. Stay there
I don't remember shutting up about it, but I will admit not harping about it incessantly, that never does any good.
I better not go back to the archive so soon, but I think I still have my comment history up on another tab if you insist (when I searched my comments for too old there were 24 hits).
I don't read every comment, but IIRC the commentariat was mighty quiet about Biden's age after the SOTU except for a few of the bomb throwers who thought it was some new drug.
Aw, you’re just butthurt that we all fucked the age chicken before you did. How do you like our leftovers?
And now a black woman, the lowest of the low, is about to disgrace your orange caligula. Let that sink in
So you chose to fuck a racist goat?
Classy
Not my metaphor, but you're still a goatfucker.
Remake America into the 1950s? I think he promises to remake America pre-Biden regime.
He used the same slogan in 2016.
Rather more relevant considering Obama's third term is even more of a disaster than his last two.
The part I don't like is MAGA. America is, and always has been, great. To say otherwise is very disrespectful.
It isn’t disrespectful to point out the disastrous effects of the Biden administration policies and to highlight that there far better alternatives. Biden foreign policy is not great. What Biden orchestrated in Afghanistan wasn’t great, it was a national disgrace. Biden’s domestic policies are not great. Open borders are not great, inflation is not great. The pernicious effects of the woke/dei/trans insanity and lawfare are not great. And all this would be incalculably worse, maybe permanent under Harris. So in sum, an America reflecting Biden or Harris policies is not great, unless you think Venezuela is great.
I agree with this philosophy, but by all accounts it was perpetrated by Biden, not by the DNC. And the remedy isn't for Biden to remain on the ballot.
There is no "democratic" provision for forcing to run for office against their will.
Except that it's not. Next complaint?
LOL!
Hollywood: Drop out
Biden: No!
MSM: Drop out
Biden: No
Mega Donors: Drop out
Biden: No!
Democrat Party: Drop out
Biden: No!
Magical weekend where promises are made and deals cut: Drop out
Biden: OK!
Hollywood/MSM/Mega Donors/Democrat party: He totally volunteered to quit, guys! Biden's a true hero who put his country first!
Nobody gives an actual crap about the 14 million voters who chose him in the Democrat presidential primary. Because democracy's at stake! And we have to kill it so that we can save it!
The salty tears of whiny insurrectionist snowflakes are delicious.
We, your allies, also have partisan disputes. They're often not as brutal as your current ones.
But everyone's basically united, across the West (and really, across the world), in thinking that Biden, your blue team, and your media are totalitarians. You have discredited yourselves, and the reputational damage is permanent.
The PERMANENT loss of face to claim that you're the defenders of truth, of democracy, of the rule of law, etc, is delicious.
You're proper fucked, and your fellow Americans will likely kill you for it.
Good luck surviving after November---regardless of how the election turns out!
In January of 2021, many people didn't care about the 81 million voters who chose Biden in 2020, let alone the police who were attacked and injured. Anyone supporting the author of that insurrection now has no standing to defend democracy.
And we do not know why he dropped out, except that his puppeteers forced him to sign a letter. He has given no explanation in his own words.
You forgot that Republicans have been asking him to drop out for months. Now that he has, you're trying to call him on it? I don't even get the thought process here. Y'all just look simultaneously stupid and craven... again. You need to learn how to take the win. We're onto your game of pretending that everything that happens in the world is grievance-worthy, even when you're whining about something you wanted to happen.
'Now that he has, you’re trying to call him on it? I don’t even get the thought process here. Y’all just look simultaneously stupid and craven… again. You need to learn how to take the win'.
You look like totalitarians. You look that way because you are. NOT fascists. Not authoritarians. Totalitarians.
No one thinks this is a win, including your Trumpian red teamers, BECAUSE everyone knows that this makes American look AWFUL. And it's just the tip of the iceberg in terms of how your political parties, your media, and your institutions systematically lie to the American people and to the world.
The world, including your fellow citizens, is on to YOUR game.
So, welcome to a world where you will never be respected or tolerated ever again---including by your fellow 'citizens'. The idea of this MERELY being about which colour teams wins your elections is over. That's a mere trifle (if even real). The REAL stakes for y'all are much, much higher now.
It is not the dropping out, it is the anointing of Kamala in a back room that is questioned.
(but you know that)
Firstly, Harris as the leading candidate is obvious (not a back-room maneuver). Secondly, she got widespread support almost instantly, including having no other candidate step forward.
Isn't Dean Phillips still knocking around out there?
I can sympathize with the Dems who didn't leap forward in the last 48 hours: they'd be at a huge funding disadvantage, all the Biden/Harris operatives in DC would have knives out for them, and Biden/Harris have at this point all but lost not only the presidential election but majorities in both houses of Congress. Saying "pick me" before lining up support is a mug's game.
Getting rid of a black VP wasn't ever going to happen in this time frame. Maybe a year ago.
The only thing that makes Harris the "obvious" pick is that she was pulled out of a hat to fulfil a campaign promise for a "black woman VP".
She was summarily rejected by the Dem voters in 2020. Hell, I'm not sure she even made it to 2020.
She's the simple pick by virtue of being in the right place, at the right time. She's not the best and brightest that Dems have to offer.
I think they're just offering her up as a sacrificial lamb so Newsom and Witmer can run in 2024.
The joke will be on them if she manages to win.
The Vice President is a pretty obvious choice to replace the President. It's kinda their thing.
"She’s not the best and brightest that Dems have to offer.
I think they’re just offering her up as a sacrificial lamb so Newsom and Witmer can run in *2024*."
Not the best and brightest, this commenter!
Not a back-room maneuver Joshy? well who knows? don’t know where they orchestrated their little decidely undemocratic deals. It might not have been in a back-room.
Only the conspiracy theory cranks know it was orchestrated.
Funny conspiracy theory I heard a few weeks back. Some nuts were saying Biden wouldn't be the candidate. Crazy.
Obviously the people who organized it know as well...
Congratulations on permanently discrediting your country, though, yeah? Good work. No one will trust you ever again.
Um, she's the vice president. She's literally who everyone agreed would replace Biden if he couldn't continue. (Except John Eastman; he's still recycling birther nonsense.)
"Everyone agreed”? Primary voters? nope, not that. By placing the cackling thing on the ticket? nope, not that either, there was no ticket yet this year. So, just curious Dave, who are these mystery people who agreed to this?
Yeah, we learned that fretting over people's aggravation with exuberant outburst needed to end with Howard Dean. We cool with the cackling. Still not ready to accept insurrection, though
You have a point to the extent that Biden cannot finish his current term. Did anyone, anywhere, vote or caucus for Harris as the presidential fallback in 2025? Or even to be next year's dogcatcher?
"Did anyone, anywhere, vote or caucus for Harris as the presidential fallback in 2025?"
As she was running on the ticket as the Vice President, the answer to your unbelievably stupid question is "Yes."
The Vice President is quite literally the first person in-line to replace a President. How many goddamn lead paint chips have you voluntarily eaten in your lifetime?
Okay, genius, show me a primary ballot where Kamala Harris was listed as the VP.
She was the running mate of Biden, so by obvious implication to everyone who isn't retarded, she was the Democrat VP choice in every State presidential primary in the union.
What other stupid shit would you like to cry about?
She wasn't on any f'ing primary ballot. There is no f'ing VP option on a primary ballot. That some stupid a-holes may think they're voting for her is irrelevant and would only be further evidence how f'ing stupid democrats are if that's what they believe.
What other stupid shit would you like to cry about?
Got it. You know you're full of shit, so you double down on insults instead of backing up your simple, but wrong, claim.
Do you think the VP is on a primary ballot? Are you from this country? Have you ever actually voted in a primary? Stupid shit is as stupid shit does. And if insults bother you so much, take it up with james.
Riva-bot yells stupid as he posts in the wrong place! Priceless.
Well I'll admit that I did make an error. Sorry Michael P.
Now, Malika, if you want to offer your own jackass insights about Kamala being on the primary ballot, please consider that comment s applying to you.
"please consider that comment s applying to you."
Comment s, Riva-bot?
Time for a diagnostic!
Not sure I quite understand that last whine. I think you should hold off commenting until you sober up.
Riva: stop treating Malika the Maiz as a human being. She/it isn't worthy of the status.
Certainly her fellow American won't after November... 🙂
Sorry about that Michael P, so much garbage here I mistakenly directed a response to you.
It's repeating itself!
Didn't I advise you to sober up before commenting? I'd say don't drive but I doubt you even own a car.
"Didn’t I advise you to sober up"
What audacity,indeed, boundless effrontery, to so wantonly disregard your sage advice.
You forgot to say bot. Like I noted to little David above, I’ve come to appreciate how sublimely clever that is, so let’s not forget to add that to every exchange, for the next few years at least. I certainly won’t.
You are perhaps the only person in the country who wasn't aware that Harris was Biden's VP choice for his campaign from the moment it began.
You should award yourself a medal of stupidity.
The Mooks!
Look, Biden made no implication ever that he was considering any other VP choice than his current VP. It was commonly referred to as the Biden-Harris campaign. So, yeah, everyone involved knew that a vote for Biden was a vote for Kamala as his VP.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-harris-campaign-announces-new-hires-ahead-super-tuesday
Hey you managed to write something half-way understandable. Idiotic but at least you’re trying. No one anywhere in this country voted for Kamala in the primary unless they wrote the name on the ballot themselves you clod. I can actually picture you doing that, but you’re, let’s be honest, not too bright.
I think you are off base here. Biden can't continue, and finally realizes it. The Democrats need to have someone on the ballot and the default is Harris, but by no means is it a fait accompli.
If she stumbles over the next 4 weeks it will be an open convention, just like it used to be. There were only 15 presidential primaries in 1960, that doesn't mean Kennedy was illegitimate because he was selected at the convention.
I know I have said how I long for the smoke filled rooms to come back, but I never thought it would be so soon (the same year I said that).
What other process is available to the Democrats at this juncture? All the delegates for the convention, at which the Democratic Party candidate for president will be chosen, have been selected and an overwhelming majority of those are pledged to Biden. Biden has withdrawn and released (I assume) his delegates and suggests that they support Harris. According to news reports, enough Biden delegates to give Harris the nomination have switched their support to Harris.
Ask yourself: what would the Republicans have done if Crooks had not missed, or if Trump had succumbed to Big Mac poisoning? Would the Republicans have come up with some more democratic solution than that pursued by the Democrats?
The Republicant's would have done exactly the same = Oooh oooh that smell, don't you smell that smell (of a smoke filled room at a political convention). They want what Team D wants.
No answer, of course.
I reiterate that there are not "4 weeks," but a week and a half.
Except for Biden, since he's been delegating his powers out to political appointees instead of Kamala.
lol, yikes-a-rooni
A back room where all the doors and windows are open...
I don't think people should take the sentiments of Mike Johnson and so forth at face value. I speak as a voter of Biden in the primary.
(I gather this is not a surprise to people who read my comments.)
I understand some concern from Democratic voters that there was an effort to pressure President Biden to resign his campaign.
There is a primary process. He was picked. The technical ability of delegates to pick someone else doesn't change that general understanding. We do know the reality that a person can resign. We still expect the primary winner to be the nominee.
So, I'm wary of some absolute rule that accepts that selection of some better candidate late in the process [even October!] after the primary process occurs.
Still, the nominee can decide they are unable to continue the race. The allegation was Biden was physically and mentally unable to do so. I think that was exaggerated but maybe I'm wrong.
There is a system in place to replace the person in that situation, including using the delegates chosen in the primary. You don't have to create a new primary. And the need to drop out can arise after the primary process is over.
In that sense, it was not "antidemocratic" to go about it the way it was done. It is not an ideal way to go about it, to repeat, and I rather not any party make a habit of it. But we are not there yet.
I agree. You have it correct.
If Biden had had a stroke like Woodrow Wilson, would Johnson expect him to continue through November.
You can go further -- if Biden died, one presumes Johnson would not claim the Democrats were in some way obligated to sit out the race rather than replace their candidate.
You're assuming more intelligence and good faith from Johnson and the GOP than is warranted.
No. doubt that Biden would continue and would ask that Harris serve as acting president
To be clear, your choice of nominee will not be on the ballot and your alternatives were pressured off the ballot so for the Party selected option but brave defender of "our democracy" that you are you see nothing antidemocratic with that. By this logic there is nothing antidemocratic about North Korea's election process.
Maybe I could see it differently if things suddenly changed, like an assassination, but this has been known and observable for several years or at least suspected by his absence and should have been sussed out during the primary.
There is nothing special about certain people not running for a variety of reasons. These people can be framed to have been “pressured” not to run. But, that’s normal stuff.
Second claim. A ball player with a general medical condition, e.g., can decide eventually that it has reached a point where they can no longer deal with it. The possibility that a tipping point might arise doesn’t mean it is guaranteed to occur.
When this occurred, a new candidate — endorsed by the former candidate & his v.p. (who I would assume would step in if he was unable) — arose. The delegates, including those who I helped select, presumptively confirmed the choice under the existing rules. It’s inane to talk about this being akin to “North Korea.”
I am looking forward to the glorious spectacle of people who support the electoral college complaining that this was anti-democratic.
I am looking forward to the glorious spectacle of people who support this complaining that the electoral college is anti-democratic.
There's a difference in supporting what under the circumstances is a practical necessity and supporting something as a general matter of policy. In terms of how a candidate is selected, this is far from optimal and I would oppose making it standard operating procedure. However, in this set of once in a lifetime circumstances, I really don't see a better alternative.
"There’s a difference"
Of course, there always is when one is caught in hypocrisy.
Fine, so explain why the difference I've articulated isn't a legitimate difference. It's not hypocrisy if the two situations bear no resemblance to each other.
And, as a practical matter, how would you recommend the Democrats handle this instead?
How does it feel to be roasted so bad by a guy from Ohio?
You’d have to ask someone who actually got roasted by a guy from Ohio.
Of course there's an entire OP making a careful case that "this" isn't anti-democratic, not a single point of which you have refuted.
Whether or not *this* is anti-democratic, my point is that people who are complaining that it is anti-democratic while at the same time supporting the electoral college deserve to be laughed off the stage.
The argument from the right that "this" anti-democratic is clearly self-serving and in bad faith. So the hypocrisy won't bother them, not that it ever does.
My comment was actually in response to Ohio Bob. I find the vertical dashed lines quite confusing, especially when there are muted grey boxes mixed in.
Me too. My apologies; I thought you were talking to me.
"not a single point of which you have refuted"
Nor will I try. I'd have to read it first.
Still waiting for you to explain why the distinction I drew is an invalid distinction. Something tells me I'll be waiting for some time.
Oh, didn't realize you were a teacher requiring an answer.
Both involve indirect election by faceless functionaries. Voters picked Biden but only party delegates will replace him, no voter impact at all.
No, just someone offering you the chance to back up what, even for you, is a breathtakingly bad false equivalence. And I doubt you’re actually stupid enough to not know better.
The distinction I actually drew that you’re still ignoring is that this is a one time event necessitated by unusual circumstance unlike the EC that is standard operating procedure.
The voters vote for delegates for the candidate.
The candidate who was the choice of primary voters is forced out and replaced by party elites for the benefit of the party because the candidate’s incompetence was too widely exposed. And this is consistent with the democratic process because polls supposedly support this? Only in the same way the Committee of Public Safety was acting consistent to democratic mandates when the Paris mob supported them.
Republicans for the last 3 years: Biden is too old and senile and cannot possibly serve another 4year term.
Democrats: Okay. You are right. He is suspending is campaign for re-election.
Republicans: NOooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
He should resign from the presidency, not the campaign.
If he had actually been "forced out," like imprisoned or exiled, then you might have some sort of point. But if Biden had still wanted the nomination, he could've taken it. There was nothing stopping him.
So the question is, when the candidate who was elected (this is assuming you can even count a primary as a real election, but let's pretend you can) decides to bow out, what happens? Fortunately, in the case of Presidential candidates, there's often a VP in the picture, as here. The VP's only function, almost literally, is to replace the President. It's really hard to see how this isn't the obvious right solution.
Anyway, the only people who have any real cause to bitch about it are Biden primary voters. Any Biden primary voters here who feel like they've been unfairly disenfranchised?
I didn't think so. But it's good to know that there are all these right-wingers out here who are so altruistically concerned about the feelings of those hypothetical Biden voters!
Keep trying to offer putrid justifications for why your system is a global embarrassment now.
The red teamers didn’t do this to you. You did.
You’re evil and you’re totalitarian.
No amount of posturing, rhetoric, or equivocations can help you now.
The red teamers didn’t do this to you.
Do what to me? I'm not complaining. They are.
Make your system into a global embarrassment.
Keep it up, totalitarian. Be true to who you are.
Even if I thought that were remotely true, I wouldn't care.
Obviously not. You're not truth-oriented.
Now, given that others cannot, let alone will not, treat your spin as being worthwhile going forward, you ought to ask yourself why you even bother to present it at all.
"The candidate who was the choice of primary voters is forced out and replaced by party elites"
The elites will not replace, the delegates will. Just like delegates nominated Trump as the GOP nominee recently.
Cynical, disingenuous, self-serving arguments in politics? Well now I’ve seen it all!
Why is it so hard to fully include quotes, unless of course it is your primary objective to mislead?
At this unprecedented juncture in American history, we must be clear about what just happened. The Democrat Party forced the Democrat nominee off the ballot, just over 100 days before the election.
Because everyone knows that the only way to preserve democracy is to crush it. Yeah, democrats are absolutely not communists. No similarity whatsoever to anything the communist party said or did.
I think what this really shows is that real power in this country is only rarely wielded by voters; real power is much more often exercised by the various elites - here, donors and DNC leadership.
Sunday and yesterday, I was pretty upset, not so much about what happened - it was clear that Biden should drop out - but by how it was all orchestrated by the DNC elite and how Harris became a hand-picked successor without any process (and yes, they could easily have run a process among registered democrats similar to how corporations run their proxy voting contests). After further reflection, this is really how the democrats (and republicans but maybe to a lesser extent) have been running their selection systems all along, or at least since Bernie was iced out in favor of H. Clinton. At least in this instance, it was done relatively out in the open where we could all see what was happening.
"Biden is unfit for office! He's senile! It's a joke that he's running for president! He needs to step aside!"
[Biden steps aside]
"No, not like that!"
Yes - exactly. The issue is whether this country's leadership should be decided by the people or by a small group of "elites" many of which were never elected and are largely unaccountable to anyone. There is a right way and a wrong way to decide who the nominee of the democratic party will be, and this is not the right way.
Ultimately, the real problem here is the two-party system that we are locked into, which we are stuck with at least until we adopt ranked choice, condorcet or a similar voting system.
"Ultimately, the real problem here is the two-party system that we are locked into, which we are stuck with at least until we adopt ranked choice, condorcet or a similar voting system."
I am extremely skeptical that any of these voting systems will have any significant impact on our de-facto two party system.
Maybe, maybe not. The experiment hasn't really been run yet. However, ranked choice voting gives third party candidates a chance and, at least, I wouldn't be stuck with the perpetual problem of either voting for a libertarian with no chance of winning or the least bad republican/democrat.
David is a Talmud Follower and you are goyim. Of course he believes you should be ruled over by elites. It's part of their religion.
Another reminder that the Nazi Child is, well, a Nazi.....
How David, in your little communist mind, is Biden too incompetent (which just magically appeared mid-May but let's get past that) to be the nominee but somehow competent enough to perform the duties of the office he is unfit to run for?
David's mind is too full of OrangeMan hate to have any worthwhile thoughts lately.
1. You understand I was mocking people like you, not expressing my own views, when I said the part about Biden being incompetent? I don't think he is at all. I think he's old, and has slowed, and is enfeebled. Being enfeebled is not a good trait, but it is not the same as being senile.
2. You understand how so fucking stupid you are that you don't have even one iota of a clue what the word "communist" means? Not only does it not have anything to do with the things you think it does, but I do not think any of those things anyway. Libertarians and communists are diametrically opposite.
3. Campaigning for office and being president are different jobs with different skill sets. There's no contradiction between being able to do one job and not the other.
4. Aging is not really "magic." It's something that happens over time.
Sorry David, I know it makes sense in your little communist mind, but it's not really more believable that the corrupt reptile is too old to run for office yet spry enough to competently perform the duties of the same office his is too old and enfeebled to run for. But then you still try to pass off the Charlottesville and laptop lies as truth.
Biden can perform as president for six more months. Campaigning for president would add to that workload over the next three and half months; it's doing two jobs at the same time. Serving another four year term starting six months from now is another question. These are three different things, of which the first is the easiest and seems well within Biden's capability.
Just to help you guys out, your age gaslighting needs some refinement. While age is “something that happens over time,” Joe’s incompetence emerged on the scene only on the evening of June 27, not “over time.” Prior to that, the media, democrats and the cackling hyena were unanimous on his fitness. And his condition, whatever it is, severely undermines any argument that this guy should even go to the bathroom unsupervised, let alone continue in office. Work on some new BS.
Just to help everyone out, the Right has been claiming Joe Biden is senile for over five years now. During that time, this claim was repeatedly shown to be a lie. During the '20 debates, they said Biden wouldn't even show. Instead, he kick'd Trump's ass. Before the last SOTU, we were told Biden would have to be propped-up at the podium. Instead, he gave a rousing good show.
That was only a few months ago and the Right (collectively) looked like fools. It's now clear Biden has good and bad days and his timing was shit-awful at this years debate. So who's gaslighting who?
Kinda just the same gaslighting lie. But you're trying at least.
Riva is nuts, but brushing off the debate as a bad day and bad timing isn't right. Biden is in decline to the point that I doubt he would be able to do the job for an entire second term, and that became clear because of the debate.
Yeah, pointing out the obvious democrat lies and manipulations can upset some people. Sod off.
I'm not sure I would find that disqualifying; every voter should consider the vice presidential candidate because even a healthy and younger man might die (or be killed). If I knew Biden had some fictional disease that caused no impairment until it killed him in exactly two years, I wouldn't think he couldn't run for another term, even if it would factor into my support for him. My concern was that he couldn't keep up campaigning on top of his existing workload, but I was OK with it if he could do it; apparently he was persuaded he could not.
I think that’s the real question, Magister. The right-wingers around here have too few brains to figure it out, because they’re blinded by their own lies about Biden.
But let’s say you’re right, which I think you basically are, that nothing substantive changed at the debate. He was old and feeble before the debate and people basically knew it. He was old and feeble after the debate and people basically knew it. Yes, the spin changed on both sides, but did the facts really change? No.
What did change? His electoral chances. So the real question is… is it appropriate for the presumptive nominee to drop out of the race between the primary and the convention based solely on an analysis that they’re likely headed for a loss? And does it matter whether they’ve already named their VP, and that that VP was duly elected previously?
I didn't think his infirmity was clear before the debate; that performance was surprising to me, given his State of the Union address earlier this year. What changed substantively was that he showed weakness at a pivotal point in the campaign, a debate that he had called for. He was over prepared with detail, which was never Biden's strength, and under prepared with sharp retorts. He seemed to be making a slight comeback a week or so later, and then calls to quit heated up again; I don't know if that was COVID, some other setback, or just a clear evaluation of his ability.
I don't think it was a cynical move by Democrats. I am pretty sure that his debate performance was a surprise to most.
I don't think it was cynical, but cynical or no, what's the propriety of a presumptive nominee dropping out for electability reasons? Let's say Trump had any sort of honor or value system and decided to drop out after his felony convictions, as an example.
I sort of think it's fine, as long as it's the candidate's choice... but it is a little fishy to leave a race that you were democratically selected for just because you don't think you can win.
He is dropping out not just because he can't be elected. The reason he can't be elected goes to his fitness to be president for a full second term.
The reason he can’t be elected goes to his fitness to be president for a full second term.
You think what happened last weekend is he realized he wasn’t fit? No, he realized he can’t win.
Electability always “goes to” something. It could “go to” “my wife just got diagnosed with cancer and I won’t be able to campaign effectively.” It could “go to” WikiLeaks releasing a video of the candidate’s golden shower. Are there some electability concerns that are more legitimate than others? I can’t think why.
I am amazed you find no difference between being unelectable because of your polic choices versus being unable to carry out the duties of the office for a full term because of dementia. The latter should be disqualifying even if you are electable.
Well, Biden doesn't have dementia, but even if he did... your line is status vs. choice? How would you analyze Trump's status as a felon, or if a candidate seriously injured themselves skydiving or something? Illegally skydiving? Illegally skydiving while intoxicated? Illegally nude skydiving while intoxicated and giving a prostitute on the ground a golden shower?
If a candidate was unable to perform the duites, out he goes. If he does something illegal, it would depend on nature of the crime. Illegal skydiving isn’t disqualifying in my view.
Even if he had not faced Trump, the insurrectionist rapist would-be dictator, Biden would not get his policies enacted by staying in a race he will lose. Being fit for the campaign is exactly the same as being able to win. Biden was still good enough earlier this year; idiots commenting around here never brought anything but doctored videos and lies to demonstrate otherwise.
A pitcher whose arm is giving out should be taken out of the game, and a presidential candidate is like a player-manager who is the only one who can take himself out of the game so that the team can win. No reason to claim that the pitcher wasn't any good the inning before.
The cynicism Randal senses is from the Republican side.
That's all true, Magister, and actually I think Biden still could've won! I think mainly he just needed to be convinced that Kamala is at least as likely to win.
But that's not the question. The question is, how appropriate is it for an elected candidate to decide that they're not the best candidate after all?
There's a difference between "not the best candidate" and "not a viable candidate for reasons beyond their control". Given his health concerns, LBJ was right to drop out of the race; solely because of his issues with the war might have been inappropriate, and not even a certain loser. I think Perot's departure (despite his later re-entrance) in 1992 was inappropriate.
I still don't understand why "under their control" matters.
Biden drops out because video emerges of him getting boned by a gay horse: inappropriate.
Biden drops out because video emerges of him getting boned by a gay horse... during which his colon ruptures and the resulting sepsis leaves him with permanent debilitating brain damage: no problemo.
Is that right?
Would it have been inappropriate for Trump to drop out when the Access Hollywood tapes came out? The reveal was not under his control (well, he did manage to cover up Stormy Daniels et al) but originally making the tape was under his control. John Edwards and Gary Hart did stuff that would have ultimately disqualified them, and doing that was under their control.
Having sex with a horse is something that, for most people, is under their control. I suppose being raped by a horse might be beyond a given individual's control*. I doubt Biden did anything to cause his infirmity other than aging, which doesn't cause inevitable infirmity at 81 (or Trump shouldn't be running, as he will be older than Biden in less than four years).
* No shaming of victims even if they dressed however a horse considers slutty.
My point is that it's never inappropirate. If you don't want to be or think you can be president anymore, for whatever reason, please leave, by all means!
Such a candidate should end their candidacy; whether it should negatively affect the candidate's reputation is another question. Probably Biden's approval has gone up from this decision. A candidate staying in the race to avoid damaging his place in history ... should damage his place in history. I'll leave "inappropriate" to Miss Manners to judge.
What about "anti-democratic?"
"rousing good show"
Yeah, Hunter gave him something good that night!
Bot's malfunctioning again.
We understand that you substituted vapid mockery for actual argument or engagement, probably because you recognize the fundamental hypocrisy of the Democrat Party here.
And we make people campaign for office before taking office in part because fulfilling the office is harder than campaigning for it.
You're being too generous. I would add that gaslighting lies that Joe is just getting on in years is not argument. It's just more pathetic lies.
Hey Riva, just curious, what is a communist to you?
And what is your definition of gaslighting lies as opposed to run of the mill lies?
Don't care how you pathetic communists want to describe your BS.
If you prefer, "run of the mill lies" go for it.
But I do care how YOU describe our BS!!
Indulge my curiosity - what is a communist?
And what is gaslighting? You love to use that word, so what do you mean by it?
Then again simply "run of the mills lies" doesn't give you guys enough credit for your continuous pattern of elaborate lies and misrepresentations. We could just call it the old fashioned communist big lie. Do you prefer the big lie?
As David Nieporent has observed, the bot known as Riva is only programed to spew a limited range of rhetoric. Ask the bot anything outside that and it completely freezes-up. As minor amusements go, it’s actually kinda funny to watch.
Riva, you didn't answer either of my questions.
Are you perhaps using words...stupidly?
Wow. I tried to be nice but I guess there's no pleasing some communists.
Everything Somin posts on VC is chock full of lies.
Why, then, should he care if others are using terms accurately? If they're mistaken in their usage it'd be one thing. But if they're instead consciously misusing them, that would be the SOMIN thing to do, and so something which he ought to affix his approval. (Privately, at any rate. Publicly, he'll lie and pretend that he opposes that sort of thing.)
Riva,
Your charge is just stupid.
I often criticize S_0, but I have never seen any evidence that he is a "communist."
He once admitted to liking the band Cake. That seems suspicious to me.
Riva is simply making basic logic error. Given A implies B, we cannot assume B implies A. Thus, while it may be true that "All communists are morons.", it is erroneous to assume that "All morons are communists."
Do you prefer Jacobin? We can use that if you prefer.
I thought Libertarians and Communists were opposites until I started reading Somin's posts. He is both.
^
Incredible content right here, folks.
Don't steal my shtick. That's lame dude.
Precisely so.
The GOP's complaint boils down to, "we wanted Biden to run, waaaah!"
The problem with the "DNC elite" here was not forcing Biden out, because that ended up being a broad call from a broad swath of Democratic politicians, in turn largely reflecting voter sentiment.
The big problem was that there wasn't a competitive primary in the first place so we missed the chance to really understand who the other candidates were and make a choice about who the best nominee would be. But I think it's fair to say that the "DNC elite" (which definitely included Biden himself) did not want that and put pressure on folks not to run.
So long as Biden ran, there was not going to be a serious challenger.
Yeah, because all of the party institutions were aligned to prevent that from happening.
Question: What do Kansas, Nevada, South Carolina, Arizona, Alaska, Virginia, Hawaii and New York have in common?
Answer: All of them canceled their Republican primaries in 2020 so as to give Trump automatic wins in those states.
That's just the way it works: incumbent presidents control their parties and do not face meaningful challenges for renomination.
Well, sure. As I mentioned above, Biden was one of the party elites that made it happen. I agree it's not unique to this party or this election cycle.
But maybe this is a cautionary tale to future parties with incumbent Presidents: it could be worth stress-testing the candidacy before it gets to the general. It sure would have been interesting to see Biden's debate performance in January rather than June, and the Dems would likely have a candidate in better position to defeat Trump as well.
The concern about there not being a "competitive primary" can be applied to any number of political races.
Incumbents tend to have safe seats. The amount of money and political support making a challenge worthwhile is not present. The voters generally support the incumbent.
Even if there is a "strong" challenge, it is rarely a close race. For instance, 33% of the vote against an incumbent can be a strong showing. No competitive challenge is common in a presidential race.
There were primaries in 2024. People could vote against Biden.
What's undemocratic is that an America that was 90% white in 1960 had the immigration and birth of of 100 million non-whites foisted upon it by the elites, against the will of that 90%.
Really? I am white, have white family member and white friends and none of us are bothered by changing demographics. I don't really think that 90% of the white people are as racist as you are.
I'm white, too, and my white ancestors got here just under the wire. A bit later and they would not have been allowed in. I don't think the political descendants of the people who would have kept them out reflected majority sentiment in the 1960's, when the rules changed by a democratic process, or now. But they have always been with us and always been noisy.
We don't allow whites in?
That you have asked that question shows that you know too little about the history of immigration to be taken seriously. Still, a quick history maybe in order.
Until the early 20th century, we had virtually unlimited immigration, at least from Europe. (Voluntary immigration from Africa was virtually non-existent, and the Yellow Peril was always a special case.) As the European immigrant mix shifted from northwestern, largely Protestant, Europe (including the Irish, after much strife) to southern and eastern Europe, there was a clamor to lower the gates, which was largely answered in 1924. My ancestors got in just in time. Other white people with last names like mine, or like Somin’s, would not be so lucky.
In the mid ’60s, the gates opened somewhat, making it easier for the types of Europeans who had been kept out, and a bunch of non-Europeans, to get in. These changes were openly debated at the time, and noisily opposed by people who liked the existing system just fine. The possible demographic consequences of the changes may not have been front of mind, but there was no secret about them.
So, yes, white people were kept out. Lots of them.
Immigration policy in the 1920s favored one set of whites (Western and Northern European) over all others, especially Africans and Asians.
A lie. It was voted in by people who told their constituents it wouldn't change the demographics.
Do you think white suburbanites wanted to be replaced?
Replaced? Do you think there are a fixed number of population slots in the U.S., such that if a minority is admitted then a white person has to be deported to make room?
Someone should do a detailed study on the Right's obsessive addiction to zero-sum-game thinking. Of course the entire movement is powered by boundless resentment with much of that fueled by envy. Somewhere someone is getting something and they're not.
And if they imagine that someone with a dark skin, their ability to think clearly is lost altogether. I still remember one comment thread here about the BLM movement. All the Righties showed-up seething with resentment over the movement name itself. The sheer effrontery of it drove them to sputtering rage.
You’re missing the point. Almost all the empirical data has shown for years that people oppose mass immigration, especially illegal immigration. That’s nevertheless the de facto policy of your country, because of elite control.
It’s anti-democratic.
Then there’s how you legally and socially treat your illegal compared to your citizens. Since they’re the ones who created and continue to support minimum wage laws, labour laws, health & safety laws, etc, blue state employers and the officials of ‘safe haven’ cities should be classified as neo-slavers. They systematically treat illegals differently. They should ALL be put in jail and the employers’ business licenses should all be revoked.
America is backward — still has capital punishment, awash in guns and gun violence, not serious as to climate change, no real national health insurance. And it’s because of white people. They’re the ones who vote Republican.
"They’re the ones who vote Republican."
Yes, white people are great!
So are the increasing numbers of Latinos voting GOP!
"And it’s because of white people."
That is as stupidly racist as people who blame blacks and Hispanics.
This is a good thing to bear in mind as a distinction between liberal and leftist.
It’s funny how all those ‘people of colour’, save for the indigenous and those who are descended from slaves taken to or born in America, all wanted to move to that ‘white’ settler colony, though, yeah?
One wonders why they all wanted to move to a white settler colony on stolen land… 🙂
Thankfully, multiculturalism is falling apart now in the West. It never took hold across the Global South, and people across the world correctly see it as a form of weakness espoused by morons who don’t meet replacement rate anyway. No one else is multiculting, no one else will, and you can point to no CREDIBLE empirical evidence otherwise.
We have seen the high-water mark of the American global imperialist project and empire. Free at last. Free at last. Lord almighty, we're (almost) free at last.
White sheets and pointy hats are not welcome here. Get the fuck out.
Self-hating white?
Nope. Someone who thinks racists such as yourself deserve to have their views physically beaten out of existence.
Nobody here is surprised that you're a fucking coward who won't post the opinions you're so clearly proud of under your own name.
Most of you cockroaches are exactly the same kind of coward; all of you deserve ridicule and pain.
The only real issue here is that the Trump GOP and the Republicans-disguised-as-libertarians (i.e. here) are suddenly terrified because the Trump/MAGA gameplay had been upended. You wouldn't be seeing all these legalistic objections had the VP been an unelectable, vulnerable marshmallow. Instead they got the Prosecutor vs. the Felon and they really don't like it. And Trump is suddenly the only 80-year-old deteriorating dementia patient in the race.
It is ironic in the extreme to see complaints from Republicans and the likes of Miller over the DNC "not giving its voters a choice" when the voters actually did choose Harris. Out of the gate she had almost enough delegates to win. Now she has enough delegates to win. They didn't have to declare their votes.
The Republicans, in contrast, have become totally a cult of personality and there is absolutely no choice in the matter for them. There have been many of them who despise Trump and see him for what he is. You don't hear much of that because any dissent is met with instant political execution.
So spare us with all the "concern" over the democratic choice of Democratic party voters. It isn't their fault that you spent all those millions on "Let's go Brandon" merchandise.
"terrified"
Of Kamala Harris? You should get your head wound fixed.
Speaking of being terrified and head wounds, Trump has already announced he will not debate Harris.
Not true, he said a debate should be on Fox.
But even so, it doesn't mean he's terrified. Was he terrified when he refused to debate DiSantis etc.?
Yes.
I don't really think republicans are scared of Harris. The last election she ran in, the 2020 Dem primaries, she dropped out before the first primary after polling at just 3% and not being a front-runner even in her home state of California. Whitmer, Shapiro or Beshear would be much stronger candidates.
I don't think they see any particular attribute of hers as a threat, but this level of angry buzzing bespeaks concern.
More because they are backfooted.
The threat is simple: she is a normal person. Trump is a terrible candidate who we also know was a terrible, polarizing President. So, to use a sports analogy, any "replacement player" on the Democratic side should have a significant advantage in candidacy against him. Voters do seem to hold Biden specifically and Democrats generally responsible for issues like inflation, so the political climate is potentially problematic for Democrats but that's mostly true regardless of who the candidate is.
Unfortunately, Biden was also not a very strong candidate and there were increasing concerns about his ability to do the job for another four years. So that made him also a below-replacement candidate and gave Trump a decent chance to win despite all of his flaws. Now Trump will be forced to compete against someone who is definitely not a superstar, but also doesn't have any of his flaws or baggage. So I think team MAGA is rightly concerned that this will allow the Democrats to refocus on resonant policy priorities (e.g., abortion) as well as what a terrible President Trump would be instead of having everyone feel like they're choosing between two evils.
No one on the national stage is a real person; it's all parasocial and mediated by the media.
But I get what you're laying down - she has a personal retail politics quality that may not be higher than others, but it higher than both Biden and Trump.
I'm withholding predictions as to candidate Harris - the right wing is spinning up their attacks still. Historically, they are not ineffective even if they tend to be vastly more smoke and nonsense than actual fire.
But yeah, the Dems are enthusiastic. If that can be maintained, it acts like momentum, which often infectious to independents.
>she has a personal retail politics quality
lmao r u 4 real rn?
Sorry, I don't mean "normal person" in that she's particularly real or even relatable, I just mean she's not a convicted felon with dictatorial tendencies nor an octogenarian with doubts about his mental competence. She's not a great candidate, but she's not an obviously deeply flawed one either.
She's good retail by all accounts. Not so great at wholesale, big crowd, politics.
Like debates.
As I said, we shall see.
Remember in the Kavanaugh confirmation hearings, when she kept repeating the words "...please consider your answer carefully?" I thought "ooh, she's an ex-prosecutor, she must have some trap she's going to spring." But it went nowhere, it was just for effect, I guess. That sums her up to me, shallow, all surface. I hope I'm wrong.
Just for the record: don't be impressed by "ex prosecutor." A prosecutor might be great at putting together a case or persuading juries, but one thing prosecutors are generally not good at is 'springing traps on witnesses' or the like. If you want someone who can take apart a witness, you want a defense attorney, not a prosecutor. Virtually none of a prosecutor's job involves such skills.
The vast majority of prosecutions are plea bargained, and of the ones that do go to trial, in the vast majority the defendant doesn't testify. Prosecutors thus do almost no cross-examining.
David Nieporent : "... but one thing prosecutors are generally not good at is ‘springing traps on witnesses’ or the like"
Something known by even non-lawyer me. After all, Hamilton Burger almost never got a zinger in.
Oh yeah Sarcastr0, people are defensive about the powerful Kamala and her political prowess as evidenced by literally nothing!
lol get real, you ppl are so pathetic
Yes, this sure is you not being defensive.
You're laughing, actually.
Beclowning you and your gaslighting isn't me being defensive.
lol wtf
r : “I don’t really think republicans are scared of Harris”
I think Republicans are scared of Harris because she’s recognizably a human being. They had their too-old-shtick on Biden but that’s gone. Now they’re running a huckster buffoon & lifelong criminal with no Plan B.
And anything recognizably human in Trump whithered and died decades ago. Take away his lies, cheats & cons and all that’s left is an empty shell.
Add in JD’s “diet Mt Dew” Vance’s flopsweat of a speech and it’s been a heck of a week for the trumpers! That’s what you get for listening to Don Jr. & Eric… Daddy had Junior pegged long ago but I guess he was too low-energy to fight back?
“Mr. Trump had frequently told me and others that his son Don Jr. had the worst judgment of anyone in the world.”
Oopsie!
“diet Mt Dew” is great. NepoGovernor notwithstanding.
Well, as they say— there’s no accounting for taste. I encourage you to indulge often!
Your loss.
Like you with the Anal Sex, Enjoy!
I hate to break it to you Gramps but this isn’t the snappy retort it was back in 1964 or whenever the fuck it was that you were in 6th grade.
Plus, you’re right, it’s great! As we used to say at the house back in the day… “up the butt, no babies”
Nah, it's still pretty good, what do you think a middle finger is representing?? It's not telling you you're "#1"
Frank
As I've never had any of my fingers up anyone's ass (not mine nor anybody else's) I'll defer to your experience and expertise.
Why is it always butt stuff with you people? Ever give that a little moment of reflection?
I've never encountered a straight man so obsessed with anal sex as these dopes. Makes one wonder, and not without cause, that Mengela and his buddies might be secret "warm brothers."
What do you think of Eugene Volokh’s trans fetish? After it was mentioned, he seems to be working very hard to stop the urge to talk about trans issues..
"it’s been a heck of a week for the trumpers! "
If you feel like taking a victory lap after the leader of your party and incumbent president abandoned his reelection campaign due to plunging poll numbers, that is your right.
Victory lap? Senator Diet Mt. Dew was completely self-inflicted, a consequence of el caudillo allowing himself to be cajoled by someone who he had previously observed has “the worst judgement in the world.” Sad! Also kind of low energy.
I don't know why you think criticizing people for changing their mind is persuasive. If anything, converting a former critic and welcoming him aboard is a positive thing. At least, to my non-mentally ill brain it is.
“converting a former critic and welcoming him aboard”
Converting, LOL. If you think Senator diet Mt. Dew is a true believer I don’t know what to say to you.
“criticizing people for changing their mind”
But are you also saying Donald has changed his mind in his previous assessment of Junior’s judgement? I hope that is indeed the case, and he continues to take Jr.’s advice! A perfectly sane thing to do (h/t Lloyd Braun & Cosmo Kramer)
Yes, that is all that happened with Vance. Just a dude changing his mind.
The very fact that you need to pull out to that level of anodyne generality is a clue you also know what a venal and self-serving turn he made, sacrificing integrity and even dignity in the quest for power.
Harris called Biden a racist in a debate. Then she served under him [metaphorically for once] in her quest for power.
People say lots of things in debates. No one really holds them to it.
By contrast, Vance started with just volunteering that Trump was idiot Hitler and he was a never Trump guy,
And he flipped around to full on ass-kissing worship.
It may be a difference of degree not kind, but what a lot of degrees it is!
Its been 8 years. If we killed politicos for changing their minds, we'd have none left!
I suspect that the only thing a high percentage of GOP elected officials have changed their minds about is the need to kiss Trump's ring so they don't end up like Liz Cheney.
You don't think integrity in politicians is a good thing anyway, so I don't know why you're working so hard to write away what everyone is seeing on the timeline and motives of your Veep.
"they don’t end up like Liz Cheney"
She ended up where she is because GOP voters overwhelmingly rejected her in her primary. So, yes, smart politicians change to avoid being wiped out by voters.
"everyone is seeing on the timeline and motives "
Everyone!
No politician has integrity. They all would sell their mother if necessary, some just hide it better. Vance is only a bit worse than average.
Elise Stefanik, now that is someone who changed on a dime. Pity Trump did not pick her, she'd be great.
Yes, Bob, everyone.
I haven't seen you posting working this hard to weasel in quite some time.
It may be smart politcially to knowingly support someone who tried to steal an election and block the peaceful transfer of power. But, it's an extreme form of sleaziness. Vance and all the others should be ashamed (but they prefer power).
She implied Biden was racist, but she didn't call him racist, as opposed to Vance calling Trump Hitler.
"sacrificing integrity and even dignity in the quest for power"
Was he blowing Willie Brown?
No. Too busy blowing Vlad.
Where's the evidence that anyone is terrified of Harris being the nominee? For the public good, I wish the Trump alternative was competent and likeable, but in terms of keeping Democrats out of power, Harris is awesome for "my side".
Delegates were not elected on a Kamala Harris ticket, so it's antidemocratic to say that their endorsements necessarily reflect what the voters would want.
By the criteria the GOP used to attack Biden, Trump is a worse candidate than Kamala. What they saw as a relative strength has become a relative weakness,
That's wrong, of course, but how does it show that anyone (in the GOP, I take you to mean) is terrified?
To be clear: it's wrong because mental competency is only a single criterion, it's far from the only criterion that distinguishes Trump from Biden, and it's not even obvious that "Word Salad" Harris is more mentally together than Donald Trump.
There is also criminality - ever heard the term "Biden crime family"? I mean, obviously it was a ridiculous attempt to deflect from Trump's own criminality (and crime family) but no doubt there are plenty of addle-pated Trump supporters convinced that Biden was a greater criminal than Trump. And for every accusation of Trump being in bed with the Soviets (sic), there was another that Biden was in bed with the Chinese.
And yes it is bloody obvious that she's more mentally together than Trump, but I understand youir compulsion to raise doubts.
Thanks for confirming that you don’t actually have any evidence to support the proposition I challenged. You THINK the GOP should be terrified, but as usual, they know better than you.
I did not address the "terrified" comment, I merely made an observation.
Its a bad observation. You are describing secondary attacks at best. The primary attacks against were immigration and inflation.
Those still exist against Harris.
How about the fact that Trump has announced that he will not debate her?
He said debates needed to be on Fox, not CNN.
https://www.cnbc.com/2024/07/23/trump-says-he-is-willing-to-debate-harris-multiple-times.html
Revealed preference: the GOP is having a tantrum about her stepping in for Biden, and has even laughably threatened to file frivolous lawsuits to prevent it.
The will of the voters is expressed by their acts of voting, not a random sampling of polls. While it's true polls generally show the public did not want Biden, that's not what Democrat primary voters concluded when given the opportunity to actually decide.
Of course, party elites and big donors threatening and then forcing Biden out after the primaries concluded and then coronating Kamala Harris without a single vote being cast for her is anti-democratic.
"Of course, party elites and big donors threatening and then forcing Biden out after the primaries concluded and then coronating Kamala Harris without a single vote being cast for her is anti-democratic."
Forced out? They held a gun to his head? You guys are devolving into the laughable.
And no "elites and big donors" are "coronating" Kamala Harris, if she is the nominee it will be, like with Trump, because the requisite number of delegates at the convention vote for her to be the nominee.
I think filing legal challenges and changing party rules to keep opponents from running in the primary is more anti-democratic. But yes, it is true that Kamala Harris has secured her position as the Democrat candidate for president without receiving a single vote in any primary.
You do know that many states don't even have primaries, right? This is beyond disingenuous.
By the time the country gets 3 months of Common-Laws Cackle, Cankles, and her Castrati “Second Gentleman” Hubby she’ll be lucky to finish ahead of RFK Jr
Frank
Ilya, honey, move to Cuba or Venezuela. You'll fit right in.
Or Mogadishu. I hear that's a real libertarian paradise.
...Are you saying what the Democratic Party is doing right now is communist?
The reaching for redbaiting is a great sign y'all are discomfited.
"y’all are discomfited"
Its always dog whistles and "signs" with you. Any GOP criticism of Harris will be interpreted by you as GOP being "terrified" or "discomfited".
He needs to lie and to pseudo-psychologize. It's a long-standing leftist tactic.
Indeed, it's traceable back to AT LEAST Karl Marx's dubious notion of 'false consciousness'.
I don't recall all these right-wingers complaining about democracy when state GOP parties kept Trump challengers off their ballots in 2020
I got to vote for my party's current (most likely) nominee, hbu?
I remember a lot of complaints at the time. A lot of discussion. But there was no bait and switch. There was no deception.
And, most importantly, Trump wasn't running on the basis of being a defender of democracy against a candidate who would surely cancel elections and become a tyrant. One of these candidates for all intents and purposes cancelled the primary election. And it wasn't the person they were accusing of doing so.
I remember a lot of complaints at the time.
Yeah no. Because most of the GOP voters were already all in for Trump and didn't care.
And you're deliberately eliding between primaries and the election itself.
AFAIC the GOP/Trump supporters' complaints, yours included, are to do with the fact that you wanted Biden to be the Democratic candidate because he was clearly going to lose.
BTW that Trump did try to overturn an actual election is surely relevant should you wish to critique candidates on anti-democracy grounds.
Trump tried to challenge an election because of fraud.
If an election is fraudulent then it should be overturned.
We can discuss who knew what at what time, but I can say with confidence that Trump at least was convinced for quite some time that serious fraud had occurred.
So I fail to see any problems in putting forth the legal challenges, exactly as he was supposed to do. This is like claiming someone is guilty because they asked for a lawyer.
Ben of Houston : :”…but I can say with confidence that Trump at least was convinced for quite some time that serious fraud had occurred”
On what basis? A lifelong conman tries to run a scam to stay in office and you claim sincerity? You’d have a better chance finding a virgin in a whorehouse than sincerity in Donald Trump.
Questions : Why hasn’t Trump ever had a consistant account of how this “fraud” occured when performing from one crowd to the next? If he really believed in his own hustle, you’d think he’d make the effort. Or why did Trump start prepping the dupes with “fraud” bullshit months before the vote occurred? Try reading the transcript when he tried to shake down Raffensperger for votes. There was no attempt to create a cogent case for fraud. It was all a random crap thrown against the wall – just like a monkey hurling feces at the zoo.
Or take the infamous meeting on 27dDec20. Trump wanted DOJ to tell several states the election was under active investigation because of evidence of fraud. The head of DOJ said there was no investigation and no evidence. Trump didn’t care. “Just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the Republican congressmen”, he told a room full of witnesses.
He didn’t “believe” anything. He wanted lots of noise because that was essential to the con. Then (he thought), his Congressmen and his Judges, and his Justices would change the vote results.
I’m curious, Ben: Do you say (with confidence) that Trump was really “convinced” Ted Cruz cheated him out of a primary race? Or he won the popular vote in ’16 & ’20? Just how gullable are you? If Trump ever tries to sell you the Brooklyn Bridge, please get back to me for advice before you take out your wallet.
It's entirely reminiscent of his first impeachment, when he extorted Zelensky to announce a non-existent investigation of Joe Biden. Not only didn't he need a real investigation, but he didn't want one, because the inevitable failure to find anything wouldn't have helped him. But if Zelensky merely announced an investigation, then Trump would get all the benefit without any risk to him.
The main agenda of the 27Dec meeting was pure criminality. Trump had been told the acting head of Justice would not lie about phantom investigations or nonexistent evidence. He would not write an offical DOJ letter to select states that made fraudulent statements.
But Trump already had a Plan B. If the acting DOJ head didn’t knuckle under, he had a toady standing-by prepared to tell any lie if that earned him the top spot. According to the Jan06 House investigation, that lickspittle – Jeffery Clark – was already being listed as head of the Justice Department in the White House call logs before the meeting actually occurred.
But Plan B ran into a buzz saw. Trump was told there’d be mass resignations at Justice if he fired the acting head to install a sniveling flunkie. Faced with that show of integrity, Trump backed down.
But please note Roberts took extra care to ensure what Trump said & did in that meeting can never be introduced in a court of law. He made sure to provide Trump total protective cover on that ugly incident alone – refering to it in his ruling specifically. Smith’s court filings had listed Trump’s actions on that day as evidence of criminal conspiracy. Roberts saw the vulnerability. He had Trump’s back.
Someone here posted about bullshit a while ago.
How the bullshitter isn't using words as lies or truth.
Bullshit is not offered for the ideas expressed but as a means to an end - to influence the hearer to do the thing the speaker wants.
Saying Trump was convinced of anything is a fundamental misappropriation of Trump and his bullshitting.
I'm the one who keeps referencing that, based on the famous Harry Frankfurt essay, "On Bullshit."
https://www.math.mcgill.ca/rags/JAC/124/bs.html
I'm reminded of Laura Penny who wrote a book on bullshit.
"The liar still cares about the truth. The bullshitter is unburdened by such concerns. Bullshit-related phrases like bull session or talking shit also suggest a casual, careless attitude toward veracity -- a sense that the truth is totally besides the point. Bullshit distracts with exaggeration, omission, obfuscation, stock phrases, pretentious jargon, faux-folksiness, feigned ignorance, and sloganeering homilies."
-- Laura Penny, Your Call Is Important To Us: The Truth About Bullshit
Even after the legal challenges he pushed to have the VP throw out votes.
As DN notes the GOP absolutely cancelled primary elections to favor Trump.
And this is really ridiculous. What are they supposed to do, *force* a primary winner to run in the general when he doesn't want to?
The longer we go without seeing Biden, the more I wonder: Did the "I'm sick" tweet reflect something much more? Was the weirdly disjointed follow-up an attempt to cover that? Did it, being in writing, invoke the 25th Amendment?
The desperation to keep talking about Biden is palpable. Delicious irony that you all spent so much time talking about Hunter and Parkinson’s, only to be the ones stuck with the demented old geezer and Don Jr.
"desperation to keep talking about Biden"
Except that it is not desperation. It is standard political operating procedure to attack the VP in an administration when the VP runs.
“The administration”
These are a continuation of the personal attacks on Joe himself. A critique of the administration would necessarily involve discussions about, you know, policy. Where have you seen that around here?
So what? That is the way the game has always been played. Of course Ms Harris could renounce and disassociate herself from Mr Biden.
Sounds like you're conceding Estragon is right - Michael et al are desperate to keep talking about Biden.
Did I miss Joe Biden resigning? Or do you just not care if the US president is dead / disabled / replaced with a deepfake scratchy voice synthesizer?
“dead / disabled / replaced with a deepfake scratchy voice synthesizer?”
Delusional, but somehow unsurprising.
Delusional, you say. Remind us: Were you one of the ones who accurately pointed out that Sleepy Joe was mentally compromised for the last few years, or were you one of the ones who either deluded themselves or tried to delude the rest of us that he was as sharp as a tack, on the top of his game, firing on all cylinders, and so forth?
Lol, I’ll just go ahead and refer to you as the weekend at Bernie’s guy going forward
The message boards across the NYTimes and others are exploding with happiness and relief. We are going to crush in the state and national elections. Blue wave
Hope dies last.
You got one party that says American isn't great. A rotten shithole. And then you have the Dems, baby! Who you think swing voters are gonna choose?
IDK. The polls say Trump though.
Bob I think has the meaning of hope dies last reversed.
It's a pretty positive sentiment about humanity and hopefulness!
They do enjoy living in fear don't they? They need their guns and gold and Lifelock and prepper meals and Hell-avoidance regimines. Everyone is out to get the poor bastards. It's a shame really
No, its a statement that everything is lost but fools keep think otherwise.
“Hope is the last thing that dies in man; and though it be exceedingly deceitful, yet it is of this good use to us, that while we are traveling through life it conducts us in an easier and more pleasant way to our journey's end.”
Not really the nihilistic outlook you love to perform at.
"though it be exceedingly deceitful"
As I said.
Cheer up, Bob. We may actually carry Ohio this year. Voter registrants have been combing my hood for weeks now
"We may actually carry Ohio this year."
It's not impossible, I suppose, but is it likely? Even considering that Doofus #2 is on the ballot?
Yep, tech is about to turn Texas blue like they did Georgia. Enjoy it while you can, insurrectionists
"We may actually carry Ohio this year."
Snort. 8 points in 2020. It will be a 10 point loss for Harris.
But COVID killed a lot of mask-hating patriots. Might have a bit of a demographic shift. Sigh, if only they had worn masks...smh
"But COVID killed a lot of mask-hating patriots. "
Sure, but in Ohio not nearly the 500k necessary to close the gap. There is still a lot of time in between now and election day but I wouldn't count on Ohio any more than we in Texas should count on Texas.
Texas is the Holy Grail : Always out there just outta reach.....
Bob from Ohio : "Snort. 8 points in 2020. It will be a 10 point loss for Harris"
Sad but true. There was an interesting analysis after Obama's first victory. Someone checked where he underperformed vs John Kerry four years earlier.
It should have been nowhere. Obama was a much better politician running in a much more favorable situation than Kerry. But the study found a pretty sizable drop throughout Appalachia - which of course extends into Ohio. That was the cost of having dark skin.
I love the Appalachian communities, having hiked there while doing my Maine to Georgia thing a ways back. Very friendly generous people. But the Obama thing was still an ugly fact.
"Texas is the Holy Grail : Always out there just outta reach….."
In 2020, Biden took the five most populous counties in the state and Trump still carried it by about 5.5% - 660k votes. Most recent polling I've seen shows Trump over Biden by more than that with Kennedy coming in at about 7.5% and other about 9%. So, it's not impossible that Harris could do better than Biden's 46.5%, it seems not very likely that Trump won't carry Texas decisively.
They're just casing your place so they can steal your kiddie porn
The culture war has been settled.
Better Americans (who favor reason; inclusiveness; modernity legitimate education in general and our strongest research and teaching institutions in general; progress; science; and the reality-based world) have won.
Americans who favor superstition, bigotry, backwardness, insularity, nonsense-based education; desolate, left-behind rural communities; dogma; and pining for illusory “good old days” have lost.
The victors have prevailed at the modern American marketplace of ideas and have shaped our national progress for more than a half-century.
The losers — a collection of racists, poorly educated hayseeds, religious zealots, disaffected immigrant-haters, chanting antisemites, old-timey misogynists, bitter clingers, and backwater Islamophobes, superstitious gay-bashers, and transphobes — can’t stand modern America and are on the wrong side of history. They are being painted into increasingly uneducated, shambling, parasitic corners of America.
Yep, I can imagine the relief at Joe dropping out.
And Kamala is doing a point or two better in the early polls than Joe.
But the real test is can she move the needle enough, in AZ, GA, NV, PA, or NC to win? All of which where Biden was down by about ~5%. Or even MI and WI, where Biden was down 2-3 to make the race close enough to steal one of the other states.
4 unique cases of yelling about commies (3 expressly, 1 by implication) on this thread.
Seems like some of the more toolish among us are running home to what is most familiar to them.
Great contribution! You really know how to add to the conversation!
Yeah, maybe we are getting desensitized about categorizing people as extremists after 8 years of being call fascists, and hearing Trump called Hitler, and MAGA likened to Nazis.
But that's where we all are now.
Last post Ilya clucked clucked about the assassination attempt against Trump, then said not all assassinations are bad. I don't think he's a commie, but he is part of the problem of labeling the other side as extremists, so I can't see he or anyone else that labels their domestic mainstream political opponents as extremists have a valid complaint about being labeled communists.
You're deflecting to blame those evil libs.
Because for reasons tribal you gotta make common cause with people like Riva, Roger S, and Yogis_dad.
And it takes some stupid-ass balls to go after Prof. Somin as part of the problem as you work to turn attention aways from those redbaiting all over this thread.
He's fine. You're okay, except for who you defend. Which makes you not fine.
I don't think its very tribal for me, most of my family are progressive democrats, after all I am a bay area native.
But if you are worried about peoples tone, well then start with your own side since you think we are all tribalists, we just need you to set an example.
But I won't hold my breath.
I don't think so little of you that I think you agree with the profligate redbaiting of some of the lesser commenters here.
But "start with your own side" is tribal as fuck, Kaz.
I'm not worried about the tone. What about "Seems like some of the more toolish among us are running home to what is most familiar to them" made you think I was worried about the tone?
"But “start with your own side” is tribal as fuck, Kaz."
Absolutely, in fact its almost as tribal as "lets start with your side first".
Somin is the functional equivalent of a communist, for reasons I explain above.
He's not fine, and he won't be fine.
The redbaiting won't merely continue, but seen to be increasingly apt by more and more people in America.
You're so fucked you have no idea...
In 1968, three weeks before the Democratic Convention, George McGovern announced his candidacy. The purpose was to gather up the delegates won by his murdered friend Bobby Kennedy. No one complained.
Because the party elders were putting their choice, HH, on the ticket
HH? Hubert Horatio Hornblower as Jimmuh Cartuh called him at the 1980 DemoKKKrat Convention (and Jimmuh was only 55, if he'd have known he was gonna live to be 100 he'd have probably started drinking and smoking) Humpty Hump from Digital Underground would have been a better choice (in 1968 or 1980)
Frank
"Anti-democratic" is pretty vague and subjective.
Hence, most of these arguments and bald assertions, "this is anti-democratic" or "this is not anti-democratic" are predictably silly.
But it takes an Ilya Somin to go beyond silly and reach the level of profoundly stupid. That is how I would characterize the argument that something is "clearly" not "anti-democratic" because he can point to a survey (LOL!) showing public support for that thing.
I would say that the replacement of Biden with Harris is fairly undemocratic (maybe better than "anti" ?) in effect, if not in intent.
I have no doubt that Republicans are being opportunistic on their claims. But what do you call it when a political party shows a pattern of avoiding the involvement of its members it it's choice of candidates?
Repubiclowns should shut up, Common-Law's one of the weakest candidates the DemoKKKrats could come up with, if they actually had a real Primary they might pick someone who could win. Especially since Sleepy isn't resigning and let her benefit from being an actual POTUS
Frank
Yes, technically pulling out of a race isn’t “anti-democratic”.
Yes, technically having ads for Harris already done and ready to be aired overnight, having 300+ delegates ready to endorse, having the FEC paperwork all ready to go, and a fundraising machine ready to spin up overnight to collect tens of millions isn’t “anti-democratic”.
Yes, technically holding a $30 million fund-raiser for a candidate whom you know won’t be able to run because he’s senile, but letting people give him the money anyway isn’t “anti-democratic”.
I could go on, but you get the idea. We all know what is meant by “anti-democratic”. It means that people are feeling cheated. Taken for a ride. Played for chumps.
But the VC as a class just seems completely incapable of not focusing on the minutiae and the mundane, especially when that is wildly inappropriate. OK, I forgive it because this is, after all, a legal blog. One expects attention to detail. But it can be so damned tiresome when it’s used to avoid talking about what everybody knows we’re talking about. Grr.
There, I feel all better now.
Is there some sort of fancy word for using "I think we all know what we're talking about here..." as a rhetorical device? Folks use it an awful lot in this comments section. I just hope there's a fun word for it so I can use it in a snarky and sanctimonious way. Please help.
Can't use "common sense argument", that's too rare a commodity these days. No, we must resign ourselves to straining at specks while we ignore logs.
Yes, because there is no common sense to saying what you mean and meaning what you say.
DaveM : "It means that people are feeling cheated"
Which people? The only folk complaining are Trump cultists. They seem worried.
Here’s a Dem donor who feels cheated: https://www.foxnews.com/media/biden-megadonor-refuses-back-kamala-harris-coronation-says-she-cant-beat-trump
I would think anyone who donated money would feel cheated.
I would think anyone who voted for him in a primary would feel cheated.
If you don’t feel bad when someone kicks you in the face, there’s a problem with both you and them.
I myself don't feel cheated because no promises were made to me.
FOX News is trying!
A quicky Google of the guy turns this up:
https://www.politico.com/interactives/2017/politico-power-list/john-morgan/
Any attempts to argue this guy is representative of Democrats generally is a joke.
Your feeling cheated on behalf of your political opposition is also a joke.
You're honestly going to tell me that you feel perfectly fine with the way this hand-off has been done? You have no problem with so many, many people who have been hiding Biden's infirmities from you? Literally days ago people were saying he's tip-top, and now, POOF!, it's "Biden who?" And you are OK with that? You are fine with Hollywood bigwigs collecting tens of millions of donations for a guy they admit wasn't up to running?
I don't see this as a political thing, I see this as a damn-I'm-an-American thing. And yes, it bothers me that all this crap wouldn't bother you.
I can honestly say that I am perfectly fine with this. I was fine with Biden continuing if he could; I was fine with him being replaced by Harris; I was fine with any of the Democratic governors that might reasonably have been chosen to replace him. I was just waiting to see how it came out, and sent money to Harris when I heard it would be her.
This, as MAGA heads explode, apparently not understanding anything other than a cult of personality.
How is not being lied to a cult of personality?
Biden was pushed as the candidate through the primary, despite them knowing of his condition. How is this not election interference in the highest degree?
I have no problem.
Part of that is what you think happened and what I think happened are different.
I don’t think it’s been established that ‘many, many people’ have been hiding much. Mostly because humans nature has shown that to be impossible again and again.
I liked Biden; I’m not sure about Harris yet. But they’re both better than Trump so I’m into it.
I don’t see this as a political thing, I see this as a damn-I’m-an-American thing.
Your breathless sharing of a bead of sweat off of Fox News’ straw grasparama shows this to be not actually true, even if you believe it of yourself.
Watched the first couple minutes of that and he says he wants the convention to decide. Problem with his position is that that is exactly what is happening. The convention delegates are deciding.
The Democratic donor you cite says he doesn’t support Kamala Harris. He doesn’t say he feels cheated.
MAGA seems to be all about grievance. If you think that people would feel cheated, maybe that’s because your baseline is MAGA types who feel cheated or otherwise wronged even when they haven’t been.
As MAGA types have spent four years pointing out, Biden didn't draw big crowds. There weren't lots of Biden yard signs or t-shirts or the like. The MAGA people who can't tell reality from reality television thought this was quite significant — and yet they utterly failed to grasp what that significance was. They thought it meant the GOP was more popular. All it actually meant was that the Democratic Party isn't a cult of personality. Unlike on the GOP side, it isn't about the person. People donated to Biden and voted for Biden because they thought he would (1) beat Trump and (2) enact certain policies. Any Democratic candidate who would do those same things is just as good as Biden. Nobody on the Dem side is being "cheated" if Harris is elected.
On the contrary, the Democratic party HAS become a cult of personality. it’s just that said personality is Trump’s: You’re now a cult that revolves around hating Trump, rather than liking your own candidate.
And it turns out that you actually CAN win elections purely on the basis of hating the other guy, if you hate him enough. That was a revelation.
Can you transfer that hate to somebody else come 2028? It will be interesting to see.
Yes, the ones who are based on hating a person are the Dems. Ignore the GOP's behavior with Bill Clinton. And Obama. And Hillary. And Joe Biden. And Hunter Biden.
And also ignore the ridiculous ear bandages at the GOP convention.
Of all the problems the Dems have, lack of policy ideas and too much focus on villains is not one of them.
And it turns out that you actually CAN win elections purely on the basis of hating the other guy, if you hate him enough.
Brett having a revelation about 2016. Better late than never.
I would think anyone who donated money would feel cheated.
This is dumb. Obviously, lots of people, possibly including Harris or her husband likely donated to Biden/Harris who are perfectly happy to have their donation used in the Harris/? campaign.
I would think anyone who voted for him in a primary would feel cheated.
This is dumb. Even if polls are somewhat untrustworthy, you surely understand that, if polls show 65% of Democratic voters are happy with the change, there are likely at least half or so of people who voted wanted Biden to be replaced. It takes a certain kind of special to think they all, also, simultaneously, feel cheated by his stepping aside.
If you don’t feel bad when someone kicks you in the face, there’s a problem with both you and them.
You sound like someone who has actually been kicked in the face. Perhaps repeatedly.
So "anti-democratic" doesn't actually have anything to do with democracy, but just with vibes?
It's funny coming from the "fuck your feelings" crowd.
They are consistent. It's "fuck your feels", but "my feels over everything, including logic, ethics, morals, and decency generally." This explains their hatred of Obama, Clinton, diversity, LGBTQ, immigrants, free markets, and democracy itself.
They feel their guy should won in 2020, they feel he must've been cheated, so January 6.
I saw an article where Speaker Johnson went much further than saying 'its undemocratic.' He said its illegal. And that there were to be legal challenges to keep Joe on the ballot (or Kamala off it).
Yes, the speaker is a lawyer. No he did not provide any legal authority.
Trump, for his part, is accusing the dems of 'fraud.' So I expect him to sue and the lawyers he forces to sue to be sanctioned.
Republicans are considering using the courts to prevent Democrats from having their preferred candidate to vote for? That sounds like lawfare!!! BwaaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!! Can we fuse the words Hypocrisy and Irony to make a new word? Let me try first: Ironocrisy. Oh, I am in such a good mood now. Things are looking up!
hobie : “That sounds like lawfare!!!”
Absent any crime, of course. Trump leaves a slime-trail of crime throughout his entire life, but the cultists still say it’s unfair to prosecute.
Meanwhile, they’ve spent years trying to find a crime by Biden (just one!) and failed. Maybe dropping-out from the presidential race is their latest White Hope.
"Trump leaves a slime-trail of crime throughout his entire life"
Finger raping a woman isn't much of a crime. I've fingered women before and they've always been happy about it
Two things :
1. Re fingering: Didya ask nicely first?
2. Did you also run a fake charity as a slush fund, create a phony university, and try to steal a U.S. presidential election?
If not, you’re still a piker, criminal-wise….
Well they're your sisters so they're just happy you're back wearing men's clothing
Finger raping an unwilling woman is very much of a crime.
Hobie just thought it was a woman, if you haven't noticed, he's not very smart
Your new word needs some work, hobie. Maybe Hypirony?
I like it!
My gift to you, hobie. Use it and enjoy it. 🙂
" So I expect him to sue and the lawyers he forces to sue to be sanctioned. "
Trump would need mostly new lawyers. Many of his previous lawyers were disbarred, convicted, and/or stiffed (or are proceeding toward those destinations), and I doubt many traditional, skilled, experienced Republican lawyers would be eager to replace those disgraced losers in the lines for indictment and disbarment.
Trump will get lawyers to do it -- hell, Navarro, Bannon, Eastman, Guiliani, Lindell, Byrne, and plenty of other Trump casualties likely still have lawyers -- but they are likely to be fringe, disaffected, inexperienced, shambling lawyers.
Maybe Speaker Johnson is praying for a miracle in this context?
I haven't heard one Democrat complain about unifying behind Harris. Not one. Lots of Republicans are performing being bent out of shape, but don't be distracted or fooled by this concern trolling about the democratic process.
This is just out of the same tired playbook they've been using for nearly a decade now. Lower or entirely remove the bar for Republicans, a land where anything goes at this point, and raise the bar to unrealistic heights for Democrats. It's tired, but it seems to work because Democrats have a soft spot for playing fairly (or at least being perceived as playing fairly); unfortunately they often get caught up in the distraction rather than redirecting to the real threat: those (Republicans) who cry big crocodile tears about democracy while actively stripping democratic institutions for parts.
Ilya is right: this is American democracy as designed, and if Republicans are worried, they should pick up their brooms and start cleaning their own side of the street.
Did I mix my metaphors here? Quite possibly! But I'm going to be obstinate and stand by it.
If your only internet sin is mixed metaphors, that probably qualifies for sainthood.
(Spot-on in substance too. Today’s Right is only concerned about what they can get away with – which is how they ended-up with a sleazy huckster criminal as their candidate. But my how they sudden grow “principles” when looking over the fence at the other side!)
Thanks! Beatification has a nice ring to it and I can put it on my resume.
The interesting thought experiment is: what if the situation were reversed and Trump dropped out of the race while Biden stayed in? This would probably be catastrophic for Democratic chances of winning in 2024 since Trump is close to the only serious Republican candidate who had a chance of losing to Biden, but it's hard for me to imagine anything but an enormous sigh of relief from the vast majority of Democrats, including prominent leaders.
The Republicans are just trying to win for the sake of winning at this point, with no underlying principles or governing philosophies beyond that.
Well then what's project 2025 about then?
I thought it was imperative democrats win because our underlying principles and governing philosophy is so terrifying.
Are you endorsing Project 2025 as the de facto Republican platform?
I didn’t think so.
I thought it was imperative democrats win because our underlying principles and governing philosophy is so terrifying.
Yes — your lack of one is what’s terrifying. The GOP is just a cult at this point. It cares more about Trump the man than it does about the country.
I disagree that Biden is the least viable GOP candidate. The cult of personality around him is real, and will accept no substitutes.
President Putin of Ukraine, Turkish leader Viktor Orban, Vice President Trump and Trump's doctor Ronny Johnson are not at all confused by that comment.
Welp.
Projection really is all you guys have. You really need some new BS.
Well, there’s this guy: https://www.foxnews.com/media/biden-megadonor-refuses-back-kamala-harris-coronation-says-she-cant-beat-trump
Granted, this is coming from a right-wing news source, so that bolsters your argument that the Republicans are trying to make hay with it, but that doesn’t change the basic problem with a “selection not an election”.
I’d be happy to contemplate any Democratic candidate who isn’t part of the current Administration. At the moment, my only real choice is RFK, Jr. so I am definitely a voter up for grabs.
But if Harris is the choice, then that’s a firm “no” from me. She is utterly undistinguished, a second-tier candidate. She’s had multiple chances to help make things better, but has never done anything to help. A lame duck.
So, Democrats, if you want to convince those of us not already on the Republican reservation to vote for your team, you need to do better.
Much better. We want to vote for someone competent, energetic, creative, and a leader. That's not a "high bar". It's what everyone should expect.
You know, I would be happy to get even two of those four traits from a Trump alternative. Trump is at least energetic and creative, even if his creativity is mostly in the direction of mean nicknames.
"45" should become "47" just for coming up with Ron "De-Sanctimonious" it was the "Low-Energy Jeb" of 2024. I think for Harris he just needs to keep pronouncing it "Kam-a-Lah", The Lame Stream Media is already complaining it's supposed to be "Kah-malla". Amazing that Pete Booty-Judge has more children than Common-Law
Frank
The second Fox news post on this guy? "those of us not already on the Republican reservation" indeed!
Second post with that link by the same concern troll.
" At the moment, my only real choice is RFK, Jr. so I am definitely a voter up for grabs."
Lol wut!
Kamala Harris is undistinguished and second-tier to you, but a convicted drug offender, long-time conspiracy theorist (before it was cool), anti-vaxxer, HIV denialist, and all around nut who never served in any office or administration (because he was always getting turned down or turning down positions) is?
Sir, this is a wild take. Harris needn't be your first choice, of course, but she's not miles better than Kennedy? Good Lord. The world really has gone topsy-turvy.
Go ahead and vote a straight D ticket then. If everyone does that you can be confident Kamala will get a lot done, and your concern trolling days will be over.
Maybe Common-Law can fuck Putin and Xi and become President of the whole world!!!!
Frank
More likely: She defeats Trump and watches him go to prison.
Could she condition a pardon on Trump leaving the country and never returning?
Maybe you should worry about your own Commutation package (already shit canned by Senator S-S-S-S-S-tuttering John Fetterman, who I like now, and not because he's keeping you safely "Confined" away from young men)
Frank
Interesting! This thread is about the horror — the horror! — of anti-democratic behavior and how, need I reiterate, how horrible that is in a democracy.
PUT HIM IN JAIL! PUT YOUR OPPONENT IN JAIL.
WOO HOO, now we’re cooking with
gas, er, democracy!She won’t put Trump in jail. She will watch, with all other Americans. (Most will applaud; some will cry, whimper, and whine,)
The appropriate judge, jury, prosecutor, and warden will put Trump in jail.
From another perspective, Trump’s crimes will put him in prison. These wounds are self-inflicted.
- I want to vote for someone who is a leader.
- I want to vote for someone who has accomplished something in their life.
- I want to vote for someone who has managed a large organization, successfully.
- I want to vote for someone who believes in America
- I want to vote for someone who knows the law, who obeys it in letter AND in spirit
- I want to vote for a realist, not an ideologue
- I want to vote for someone who will defend us from external threat
- And, mainly, I just want to vote for someone who is competent.
This is not too much to ask.
Kamala checks all those boxes... maybe in some cases with tiny checkmarks, but I don't think she fails any of them.
Trump, of course, fails fully half, earning him a solid F. Your choice seems clear.
Common-Law’s never had any trouble getting her “Box” checked if you nome sane?
Frank
Nome sane! Hardly.
What’s the difference between Kamala and the Hawk Tua girl??
about 40 years
" the Hawk Tua girl"
Jeez, that's something I didn't need to know about.
Like you've never done it,
it's a variation of the old Joke
"How do you get rid of unwanted Pubic Hair?"
"Hawk-Tua!!!!!!"
Man, I crack myself up
Frank
So what's wrong with Common-Law's Uterus? no Kids? even that Cunt-sicle Hilary Rodman produced Chelsea (Bill's face and Hilary's NFL Lineman Calves, what a beauty!) And that Second Gentleman looks like an even bigger Poof than our Revolting Arthur sounds like. And is the fact she's drunk a significant portion of the day not going to be an Ish-yew?
Frank
Prof. Orin Kerr doesn’t want to talk about his reasons for continuing to publish his scholarly observations at this blog.
So commenters do it for him.
The racism. The misogyny. The superstition-driven gay-bashing and transphobia. The antisemitism. The white supremacy. The Islamophobia. The Christian nationalism.
This white, male, right-wing blog has carefully cultivated a collection of bigoted commenters. These bigots are your people, Volokh Conspirators. And not one of you has the decency, courage or character to say anything about his blog’s everyday stream of bigotry.
What a paltry bunch of cowards.
What's the matter Revolting? Mick can't get it up today?
'What a paltry bunch of cowards'.
You don't have the courage to confront the truth about your values, what your country has really become under their influence, and your country's future (and future standing in the world).
You don't even have to courage to face, head on, what's likely going to happen to you. What your fellow Americans are mostly likely going to do to you.
You're ruined, AIDS. Kill yourself now. The world will be a better, more honest, and smarter place for it.
“This election will be about policies and not personalities […] her ethnicity or her gender have nothing to do with this whatsoever.”
LOL, poor Mike Johnson. He clearly hasn’t gotten the memo!
LOL, poor Mike Johnson. He clearly hasn’t gotten the memo!
I doubt he's on the DNC (you know, the ones who are the most concerned about gender and skin color as qualifications) memo distribution list. It wasn't R voters who threatened a party civil war if the (half)black woman was skipped over as the party nominee.
“her ethnicity“
“(half)black”
Wuzzie I think you are misunderstanding your speaker Mike! He wants you to lay off this particular talking point
I think you're misunderstanding simple English. You're also a disingenuous hack.
No, I’m pretty sure I got it.
Why didn’t you say this: “who threatened a party civil war if the VP was skipped over as the party nominee.” ??
You should listen to Mike!
No, I’m pretty sure I got it.
That's the sort of baseless confidence most morons display.
Why didn’t you say this: “who threatened a party civil war if the VP was skipped over as the party nominee.” ??
Because those who were doing the threatening did so explicitly because she's a "black" woman, in their own words (not mine).
No, you didn't get it...not by a long shot.
“(not mine)”
“(Half)black”
Pretty sure those are your words!
"Survey data indicates a large majority of Americans, including some 65% of Democrats, wanted Biden to drop out"
Democrats have claimed for years that voter ID laws are undemocratic because it might inconvenience a couple of people. So disenfranchising 35% of Democrats is no big deal?
Please extrapolate on how anyone was disenfranchised. Points you might want to address:
1. During the primary, people voted for delegates who would then vote for a potential nominee at the convention. The delegates elected during the primary will still do just that.
2. A candidate choosing to drop out of a race is not undemocratic and disenfranchises no one. Particularly when, see 1, the people who were going to vote for him/her haven't yet voted, so can choose someone who is running.
3. Your talking point is one of the dumber takes on the 2024 election generally and democracy generally.
0. If you are a lawyer, you should understand when someone is being snarky.
1. If you cannot see the problem with your first point, you shouldn't be a lawyer.
2. The problem with your second point is related to the problem with your first point.
3. I would have to get considerably dumber to match most of the people on the right or left. I cannot believe what passes for logic nowadays.
So you admit no one was disenfranchised!
Your point 0 admits you weren't serious in the first place.
The rest of your points rely on not understanding my point 1. You clearly do not understand the meaning of the term "disenfranchise".
Try being a little more respectful and you might learn something about people who don't see the world the way you do. As for your reply, show me a single primary ballot where a delegate appears. Yet you say the people were voting for delegates. You have got to do better than that. And if they were voting for delegates, then they would have no problem if the delegates went to the convention and voted for Harris whether Biden dropped out or not. Try to do better.
People donate money to politicians who may not succeed, in a primary or a general election. I don't feel cheated any time I did that, if they used the money to advocate positions that motivated me to donate.
I voted for delegates (or probably voted for instructions to the delegates). Only the few people who serve as presidential electors have ever actually voted for a president; the rest of us vote for electors, even if the ballot lists the candidates' names. I've only felt cheated when the person who got the most votes did not win the election, and never because a candidate I supported dropped out or lost an election fair and square.
Link is clearly not a Democrat, or they would talk about their own feelings and not assert trollishly what others who are Democrats feel.
Good job of expressing your feelings. Many Democrats would disagree. I know a few who do. Believe it or not I have friends who are Democrats.
“the rest of us vote for electors, even if the ballot lists the candidates’ names.” This puzzles me why you would try to make this point. People vote for somebody they don’t know? No, people vote for the candidate. The delegates or electors are the mechanism by which this is accomplished. Otherwise delegates or electors would be free to do whatever they want. If they are bound to vote for a particular candidate then their vote is controlled by the people who voted for that candidate and hence the people did vote for the candidate.
“Link is clearly not a Democrat.” Well, I did make this obvious. And this being Reason, you probably should expect some libertarian comments. I was pretty much a charter member of Reason magazine. In 12 presidential elections I’ve voted for the Democrat once, for the GOP candidate once and libertarian 10 times.
"Survey data indicates a large majority of Americans, including some 65% of Democrats, wanted Biden to drop out, so the Democrats could select a different candidate."
Polls, surveys, etc. are not comparable to actual votes. Votes > Polls. Biden's votes, won in actual primaries (flawed as they were), count infinitely more than any "surveys" or polls. In fact, I would argue that polls and surveys should never be considered a legitimate measure of democratic intent. They have always been considered as nothing more than a hint of what actual voters will do, to be discarded to the dustbin of history after the actual votes are counted.
Your essay's logic seems to violate some kind of "mean value theorem" principle of democracy. Unless you believe that Biden's infirmity has just suddenly and recently appeared, the claim that 65% of Democrats want Biden to drop out cannot be squared with fact that a vastly higher percentage of primary voters actually voted for Biden The Infirm. Somewhere, in a big way, a key component of our democracy was subverted. Clearly part of that involved ostensibly independent media actually functioning instead as a propaganda arm of the DNC.
This is all bad faith argument, and there's no point in responding to it. Democratic voters are not complaining.
Yes, they are complaining.
And you know this, despite ignoring polls and focusing only on votes, despite the fact that there haven't been any votes on the issue. Sure, troll.
What, exactly, is the complaint?
That Joe Biden isn't being forced against his will to continue running?
That the Democrats should time travel back to January to re-run the primaries?
That they organize and hold new primary elections over the next two weeks?
That delegates pledged to vote for Joe Biden should vote for him even though he isn't running?
What, exactly, is the complaint you are concern trolling about?
I find it interesting that this discussion completely leaves out the main pivotal act of this story as I first heard it -- which is that Biden's cabinet threatened to declare him unfit under the 25th Amendment if he did not withdraw from the race.
I heard the above from attorney Robert Barnes (who podcasts at vivabarneslaw.locals.com). He goes on to say that if this is true, it constitutes illegal blackmail. I'd like to hear some opinions on whether or not that is the law, because it seems to me that the 25th is toothless if the cabinet members aren't allowed to use it in exactly that manner.
No evidence for any of this.
I'll bet you your life.
Bet that there is evidence? Simpler just to produce the evidence rather than calling for people's deaths in numerous unhinged comments, since you're never going to catch up with Dr. Ed 2 on calling for deaths.
Nope, you don't get something for free.
I produce it, you die. Deal?
So, you have nothing but ranting at people to die. Still, no evidence has been produced.
Why won't you take the bet?