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Supreme Court to Consider State Ban on Gender Dysphoria Treatments for Minors (Updated)
The Court's grant of certiorari is limited to only one of the issues in this litigation.
Yesterday the Supreme Court granted certiorari in United States v. Skrmetti, a challenge to Tennessee's SB1, a law prohibiting puberty blockers, cross-sex hormones, and sex-transition surgeries for minors suffering from gender dysphoria. SB1 is one of several state laws recently adopted imposing such limitations on such care for minors, and Skrmetti is one of several cases involving challenges to such laws.
Tennessee's law was initially challenged on both Equal Protection and Due Process grounds. A divided panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit initially stayed and then reversed a preliminary injunction against the law. In opinions by Chief Judge Sutton, the court concluded that the challengers were unlikely to succeed on either their Equal Protection or Due Process claims.
Both the federal government and individual plaintiffs filed petitions for certiorari in Skrmetti. Yesterday the Court only granted the federal government's petition. One reason might be that the brief filed by the Solicitor General only submitted one issue -- Equal Protection -- to the justices. The SG did not ask the justices to consider the substantive dur process claim that Tennessee's SB1 infringed upon fundamental liberties, such as the right of parents to control the upbringing of and make medical decisions for their children.
The question presented in the SG's brief that was accepted for certiorari reads as follows:
Whether Tennessee Senate Bill 1 (SB1), which prohibits all medical treatments intended to allow "a minor to identify with, or live as, a purported identity inconsistent with the minor's sex" or to treat "purported discomfort or distress from a discordance between the minor's sex and asserted identity," Tenn. Code Ann. § 68-33-103(a)(1), violates the Equal Protection Clause of the Fourteenth Amendment.
The second question presented that was addressed by the Sixth Circuit and included in the petition for certiorari that was not accepted by the Supreme Court reads as follows:
Whether Tennessee's SB1 likely violates the fundamental right of parents to make decisions concerning the medical care of their children guaranteed by the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause.
While the Supreme Court is not ready to consider whether the Due Process Clause protects parental rights in this case, it will likely have additional opportunities to consider such questions in due course, and potentially in cases that have a different ideological valence.
While some states have imposed limits on various treatments for gender dysphoria for minors, other states have placed limits on conversion therapy. While such laws do not raise the same Equal Protection issues as Tennessee's SB1, they arguably place equivalent limits on parental rights. There are also brewing disputes over whether a parent's willingness to affirm a child's gender identity should be considered in custody disputes, as would have been required under a California bill vetoed by Gavin Newsom last year.
Whether or not the Court is willing to add a parental rights case to the docket anytime soon, Skrmetti is currently the highest profile case on tap for October Term 2024.
[Note, however, that should Donald Trump win the election, this is a case in which the federal government could change sides, so it will be worth paying attention to the briefing schedule and when this case is scheduled for argument. On this point, see Josh Blackman's post.]
UPDATE: While the Tennessee law in question prohibits both chemical and surgical treatments, it is important to note that the Solicitor General's brief limits its challenge to the prohibition on the use of hormones and puberty blockers. According to page 9 of the Solicitor General's brief: "The law also prohibits surgical procedures provided for the same purposes, but that prohibition is not at issue here."
The reason the SG claims the case is so proscribed is that the lower courts concluded that the private plaintiffs lacked standing to challenge the prohibition on gender-transition surgeries because none had plans to obtain or provide such surgeries in violation of the law.
Of course, if the SG is correct that the law imposes a sex-based classification that triggers heightened scrutiny, this conclusion would apply across the board. The question then would be whether, if the SG is correct that the prohibition on the use of hormones and puberty blockers fails heightened scrutiny, whether that would necessarily doom the prohibition on surgeries as well. Does the state have a stronger interest in limiting such surgeries for minors than it does for limiting puberty blockers? And is the prohibition on surgeries most closely related to the state's interests? And while this question may not be part of the case at it reaches the Court for review, I would not be at all surprised were the SG asked these questions at oral argument.
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Never mind the rights of parents, what about the rights of children? Don't they have a right not to have the state mess with their healthcare decisions? Presumably if the state of Tennessee outlawed gallbladder surgery that would be unconstitutional too?
12 year olds do not have a right to make their own healthcare decisions.
> Presumably if the state of Tennessee outlawed gallbladder surgery that would be unconstitutional too?
What about States that outlaw compassionate sexual identity affirmation services (which you people slur as "conversion therapy")?
I can’t believe you are this obtuse to pretend the law doesn’t recognize an age of consent.
How many 14 year olds are allowed to enter into legal contracts?
I know, I know, abortion jurisprudence has really done a number on people. It was certainly confusing when the school nurse couldn’t give your 14 year old an aspirin without parental permission, but yet she was also able to get an abortion on her own, as if being pregnant somehow magically increased her maturity. Any time sex comes into play, people develop weird legal notions.
What does that have to do with anything? Just because someone is below the age of consent doesn't mean they don't have rights.
Not "no rights at all", but, yes, fewer rights, and usually delegated to responsible adults, almost always the parents. There are really few rights that children get to exercise on the same level as adults, on their own behalf.
How about the right to life, or at least the right not to have the government mess with your medical care in a way that might result in your death?
Tennessee passed a law to protect children from having their medical care messed with.
If that's what it did, it should have no trouble having this case thrown out regardless of the legal arguments of the plaintiffs. The fact that it's going to the Supreme Court suggests that there's a little bit more to it than that.
So if a kid identifies with Superman, he should be allowed to jump off a roof? Or possibly the State should be allowed to punish the parents for not affirming his identification by pushing him off the roof?
Or maybe a different analogy would make you think for a change. If a 5 year old identifies with Bonnie and Clyde, should the State punish the parents for not affirming his identification by buying him a Tommy gun?
There are some things minors simply are not mature enough to decide, and it is truly immoral for the government to decide for them and hide it from the parents.
So if a kid describes their symptoms to an adult, the adult should simply ignore them, since children can't possibly be mature enough to know what is happening with their own minds and/or bodies.
Ignoring the kid is better than taking him to a gender-affirming medico.
Yes, we know this has nothing to do with the welfare of children, thank you very much. Hey, didn't a guy who was spiritual adviser to Trump just admit to molesting a child? Didn't a Republican Senator just admit to travelling to Tahiti to rape children? Don't listen to the children, guys! It inconveniences Christian pastors and Republican senators!
Square that circle with the fact that most of Europe is rolling back the transing children insanity.
Do you want to go into the loveliness that is the pro-tranny lobby?
"since children can’t possibly be mature enough to know what is happening with their own minds and/or bodies."
Yep. There's a reason Alcohol and Tobacco are at age 21.
Alcohol and tobacco aren't the physical or mental symptoms of something occuring within the child. I am impressed at how vast your confusion is.
@Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf: That has to be eligible for whatever prize they give for the absolute worst analogy in the visible universe. It makes the Chewbacca defence seem relevant by comparison.
I can’t believe you are this obtuse
That's actually one of the easiest to believe things...ever.
Forget the fact that teenagers are too young to need gallbladder surgery, there is a difference between lifesaving and optional surgery.
A cholecystectomy is most often used to treat gallstones and the complications they cause. A properly functioning penis or vagina is not creating complications.
Go ahead, tell me that gender affirming care isn't life-saving: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5178031/
The fact that people with gender dysphoria have a high suicide rate doesn't make the surgery life saving, because it literally doesn't save lives. They continue to have that high suicide rate after getting it.
Let's not pretend like any of you actually care about trans peoples' lives.
Let's not pretend that you care about non-trans children.
Let's not pretend that they're affected by this in any way.
Let's not pretend that you care either.
This is just another "Social Justice" cause you favor; such as supporting Hamas' stated goal of the elimination of the State of Israel.
Yes, it is a cause I favour, just as persecuting a vulnerable minority is a cause you favour; no the other one isn't a cause I favour.
Let's not pretend you actually care about facts.
Coming from you, that means a lot.
Yes, the gender-affirming makes them miserable, and leads to suicide.
Can't possibly be their demonisation and denial of health care by a mainstream political party.
Who demonizes tranny kids? Seems most folks feel bad for them at worst and are livid at adults for screwing with their heads.
You cannot point to ANY benefits of slicing the kids up. There is not a reduction in suicide tendencies.
Your hatred for them is undeniable - you tell them that they're wrong about what's going on in their own minds and bodies and deny them treatment for their conditions.
Higher, actually.
Well you guys are ramping up the hate on a group of people who are mentally vulnerable!
The only hate I see is coming from the Left.
What a childish reply, but I'll bite. Exactly who on the left here are bringing hate on trans children? And what is this hate?
Slicing them up with no benefit to them at all?
God help any child who gets appendicitis or tonsilitis while you're king of who gets medical care.
Well I'm not exactly feeling warm and fuzzy towards you hateful clowns, it's true.
OK: Radical surgery on kids' sexual organs and drug therapy (f/k/a "gender affirming care") are not life saving. The NIH is a federal agency, but we've learned that it's not to be trusted on politically controversial topics.
https://www.heritage.org/gender/report/puberty-blockers-cross-sex-hormones-and-youth-suicide
https://www.city-journal.org/article/reckless-and-irresponsible
Not to be trusted on the topic of the current target of right-wing extremists.
Ah, you're one of those who can't separate "right" from "far" or "extremist", and especially distinguish it from "wrong". The only "right" you know is "left".
Oh I can distinguish those things. That's why I can identify it here.
So simple to be a person of the left. Never have to deal with substance, just demean the source.
Simple concepts for Simple Minds.
The study doesnt support what you think it supports
Its well known that transgender confused individuals have much higher rates of suicide than the general population. That is not in dispute. Transgender confused individuals have higher rates of suicide because they suffer much higher rates of other mental illnesses, depression, etc than the general population.
The better measure is the change in the rate of suicide before and after medical treatment. The study makes no attempt to measure the change before or after the prescribed Medical treatment.
Which has nothing to do with letting Christian fundamentlaist bigots deny trans people access to health care. Which might be more related to depression and suicide rates amongst the targets of their bigotry.
Bigotry has nothing to do with the opposition to the activists preferred treatment of mentally ill individuals suffering from gender confusion. Only a bigot would accuse others of bigotry to justify the delusional belief that embracing their illness will cure that illness.
As noted above
Its well known that transgender confused individuals have much higher rates of suicide than the general population. That is not in dispute. Transgender confused individuals have higher rates of suicide because they suffer much higher rates of other mental illnesses, depression, etc than the general population.
The better measure is the change in the rate of suicide before and after medical treatment. The study makes no attempt to measure the change before or after the prescribed Medical treatment.
Nige - Any guesses as to why the Scandanavian countries are backing off your preferred treatment of the mentally ill? try to be honest and objective instead of being an activist.
What are you if not an activist aganst trans people? You lie about them and patronise them and support their persecution. You're certainly not a medical expert.
I am not the one encouraging a medical treatment that most of the european medical professionals strongly discourage. My views align with the prevailing medical knowledge, not the skewed and distorted medicine pushed by the advocates.
No, medical professionals make those decisions, but you have decided that you have the right to poke your nose in and make them for both the medical professionals and the patients. It is literally the opposite of prevailing medical knowledge to ban the accepted medical treatement for gender dysphoria. It is purely political.
Nige - You continue to ignore the reason European medical authorities are backing off the treatment - its because it does not provide the medical benefits you delusionally believe. It fact it creates far greater harm than benefits.
In Europe they are responding to the scaremongering by doing *more* research, which ultimately will be a good thing.
At least you are acknowledging European medical authorities are backing off,
The backing off is due to serious concerns about the medical and mental health viability of the treatment.
Yet you still cant come to grips with basic biology
You cant even acknowledge that it is a mental health issue -
The backing off is due to scaremongering and hysteria from the right - at least they're taking the approach of funding more research, though of course that makes trans people experimental subjects, which is lovely.
It is not a mental health issue you ignoramus.
But woke bigots are acceptable? The BLM, CRT, 1619 people, all great.
Oh, I didn't realise this has nothing to do with trans people and everything to do with petty resentment and sulky childishness.
Á àß äẞç ãþÇđ âÞ¢Đæ ǎB€Ðëf ảhf 25 seconds ago
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But woke bigots are acceptable? The BLM, CRT, 1619 people, all great.
Concur
the biggest racists and bigots today are the ones accusing others of bigotry to hide and justify their own racism and bigotry.
Blah blah blah 'Lets persecute, a minority! Oh how mean! You noticed! That means you're the racibigots!"
Nige. Here's the problem. It doesn't work.
There is no demonstration of improved outcome with transitioning.
There is no reduction of self-harm with increased "affirming care".
In the end, if it doesn't help people, we shouldn't do it.
Yes, that is true, but only if you completely ignore every single person who has ever transitioned, barring somewhere bewteen 1 and 4%. Transitioning isn't a treatment for *depression* it's a treatment for *gender dysphoria.*
And gender dysphoria simply means you are confused about what a man or woman is, probably because people have lied to you.
How can a person be lied to about what is going on in their own body? You know what's a lie? Idiots screaming 'it's not happening shut up!' at children looking for help.
No, they aren't being lied to about what's going on in their body.
They're being lied to about what a "man" or "woman" is.
I think that if anybody in the whole world understands the differences between 'man' and 'woman,' it's people who experience gender dysphoria.
Its not what going on the person's body
Its what is going on in the persons brain.
Its a mental health problem. Its also a mental health problem that you ae unable to comprehend that it is a mental health problem
No, just the opposite. If someone is thinking "I have a man's body but I feel like a woman," then they are just confused about what a man is and what a woman is. They are feeling something, to be sure, they have just been misled and mislabeled it.
'Its a mental health problem.
It absolutely and categorically is not.
'They are feeling something, to be sure,'
Yes, they are feeling gender dysphoria. That's what it means. This has been studied for quite a long time, you know.
Go ahead, tell us you didn't read that recent report which the UK NHS used to shut down their "gender affirming" surgery on minors.
Yes. It was amazing how the scientific parts of the report suggested the opposite of the non-scientific claims.
Nige - you really need to develop some basic scientific knowledge before commenting
Sorry, I don't do politics-driven cod science based on your feels.
Nige 1 hour ago
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Sorry, I don’t do politics-driven cod science based on your feels.
Nige - that is exactly what you are doing
That is what the current fad treatment is doing - medication based on political science.
How can it be a fad? It has been developed over decades of study. Your pseudo-scientific mock-concern for them is a more recent vintage of an old hate.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC11063965/#:~:text=Individuals%20who%20underwent%20gender%2Daffirming,15.96%2C%20p%20%3C%200.0001).
Nige - This study shreds virtually every claim you make in support of your preferred transgender "medical care"
No, it shows that that mental health treatment for trans people is insufficent. It has nothing to do with gender-affirming care.
Nige 2 hours ago
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No, it shows that that mental health treatment for trans people is insufficent.
Nige - are you finally admitting the transgender confusion is a mental health problem. Congratulations - you are beginning to understand some of the basic sciences.
This is the level of reading comprehension you bring to everything, isn't it?
https://segm.org/regret-detransition-rate-unknown
regret rate study deficiencies
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/372620083_Gender_detransition_A_critical_review_of_the_literature
gender transition regret rates
Lol, no it isn't.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4771004/
But you want to deny them the chance to make fully-informed decisions, what has that to do with anything? There's risks associated with every medical procedure, only the ones for trans people are suddenly singled out and monumental.
https://americafirstpolicy.com/issues/gender-transition-medications-and-surgeries-for-children-in-the-u.s
Well, right off, hormone treatments have been used on kids for decades, it's not an unknown risk.
Nige 18 mins ago
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Well, right off, hormone treatments have been used on kids for decades, it’s not an unknown risk.
Nige -
A) True hormones have been used to treat kids when there are deficiencies
B) Use of puberty blockers have very well known serious long term risks and lots of unknown long term risks
Quit pretending otherwise.
So what? So do most medications, and they're not as mysterious and unknown as you try to claim.
You're right, it's a known risk, and a pretty bad one at that.
All medications are a risk.
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1521693422001766
"there is a difference between lifesaving and optional surgery"
Is circumcision lifesaving or optional?
Why should parents be entitled to impose circumcision on a minor?
(Competent adults neither advance nor accept superstition-based -- in other words, nonsense-based -- arguments or positions in reasoned debate among adults.)
Carry on, clingers.
Who do you think the original source was that caused all those children to have their penises mutilated and continues to promote it as a hygiene tool?
I'll give you a few hints:
1.) They are currently genociding innocent brown people
2.) They are heavily involved in illegal migration in all the formerly White countries for nefarious reasons
3.) They control much of the degenerate porn industry
4.) They stole an identity and have been lying about their ancestral bloodlines for over 1,000 years
Some states do ban female circumcision.
But not male circumcision.
Which is child abuse and depraved flattery of silly superstition.
You’ve obviously never had daughters. Vaginas cause all kinds of problems, even when “Functioning Properly”
Frank “so how’s my favorite daughters Vagina functioning?”
Interestingly enough, the only problem your Mom's vagina causes is that I can't get enough of that WAP!! ;p
Are you sure? See Abigail Alliance for Better Access to Developmental Drugs v. von Eschenbach, 495 F.3d 695 (D.C. Cir. 2007). It doesn't resolve the exact issue, but it suggests you may be incorrect.
No it doesn’t. The whole reason why I picked an utterly boring medical procedure as an example is to take the question of experimental drugs etc. off the table.
The government may regulate medical care in order to make sure dangerous drugs don’t enter the market (and dangerous medical procedures aren’t performed, etc). What it may not do is ban a safe procedure for reasons that have nothing to do with protecting the safety of the patient.
I think you begged the question that hormones and puberty blockers are safe procedures for minors. Certainly, Tennessee doesn't think they are safe.
Trans treatment goes beyond hormones and puberty blockers. Healthy girls as young as 13 are getting masectomies.
https://bioedge.org/beginning-of-life-issues/13-year-olds-given-mastectomies-at-california-clinic/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC9555285/
The ban on surgery for minors is not being challenged in this case.
'The prevalence of surgical complications was low and of over 200 adolescents who underwent surgery, only two expressed regret, neither of which underwent a reversal operation.'
Fucking panic.
Only Two - most likely 10x - 20x of the claimed regret
Even only two - you have completely FU'd their lives
‘most likely’
So muh of what you claim is pure speculation and invention.
‘you have completely FU’d their lives’
Have you? Not enough for them to try to reverse it. And presumably every other person benefitted from it. Generally that is the way with all procedures. Small rates of regret are not sufficent to deny people who need treatment.
fwiw - contrary to the claims by advocates, puberty blockers do create long term harm. Short term usage is reversable, though long term use does cause damage. (long term use being 5-6 months or more)
'long term damage' ooooh scary.
Nige 5 hours ago
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‘long term damage’ ooooh scary.
Nige - you are confirming your extreme ignorance on basic human biology or anything else on the subject.
Do you seriously have no concept of the long term damage from the WPATH proscribed / recommended medical treatment?
So judges are the ones who are supposed to decide what medical procedures and drugs are dangerous, which are safe, etc ?
They are certainly the ones who are supposed to decide whether the state followed a proper approach in regulating the medical profession, by taking into account all relevant considerations and no (legally) irrelevant considerations, and whether, in the end, the state avoided a result that has a high likelihood of needlessly getting people killed, yes.
No. Minors’ have few to no rights independent of their parents.
More precisely, the child's rights are entirely delegated to the parents to protect (until and unless those parental rights are terminated).
You're confusing the question of *who has rights* with the question of *who can/should go to court to enforce them*. Or at least I hope that's what you're doing, otherwise you're advocating for a decidedly antediluvian approach to the law.
OK, here's the issue: What is the extent to which parents are permitted to screw up the lives of their children? There is an outer limit -- parents cannot pimp out their 10-year-olds as prostitutes -- but nobody seems to know where that line is or how to apply it.
In fact there are parents -- lots of them -- who make terrible parenting decisions. Allowing a child to eat a steady diet of potato chips and soda pop is a terrible parenting decision. Raising a child to be a racist is a terrible parenting decision. Not ensuring that your child is getting an education is a terrible parenting decision. Depriving a child of a father because you don't get along with your ex is a terrible parenting decision. There is a long list of other terrible parenting decisions.
For sake of argument, assume allowing kids to transition is a terrible parenting decision. By what standard -- by what measuring stick -- does it go into the category of terrible parenting decisions the state stays out of, or that the state gets involved in?
I've never heard anyone attempt a serious, principled answer to that question, but that really is the question: What's the standard for when the state should intervene in bad parental choices?
Behold, the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child, ratified by literally every country in the world except the US, for reasons that should be painfully obvious to anyone who has read the comments here.
https://www.ohchr.org/en/instruments-mechanisms/instruments/convention-rights-child
Here's a good one from the UN. The UN Declaration of Universal Human Rights:
"Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children."
Why aren't you going to bat for that one?
There is another factor. Several states and countries have attempted or passed laws that actually remove a parent's attempt to say no. They have also defined any attempt to dissuade a child from transitioning as conversion therapy. This means that if a child says they want this procedure once, it can be illegal to question their decision.
The right to fuck up your children is among the rights conservatives hold most dear.
"I’ve never heard anyone attempt a serious, principled answer to that question, but that really is the question: What’s the standard for when the state should intervene in bad parental choices?"
Sure. One answer is severe, physical, irreversible consequences.
There's a lot of mental choices that go into being a parent. But when the parent decides to make choices for the child that result in irreversible physical disabilities...the state will often step in.
You may think your son is the best choral singer ever...and just really think he'll do better in life if he keeps that high note. But if you choose to chop off his balls in order to maintain it...the state will step in. It's an irreversible physical disability you are imparting on your son, killing his fertility.
You may think humans are overpopulating the world, and it's wrong, and you're free to indoctrinate your children as much as you want in that regards. But when you step into the realm of taking your daughter to the doctor at age 13 and say "sterilize her, we don't need more humans". Then the state can and should step in.
You may have a fetish for one-legged people. But try to cut off your child's leg because you think it will improve their looks. The state can and should step in.
Irreversible physical disabilities.
Here, you get my copy-n-pasta too.
It used to be dogma that African tribal female genital mutilation was the scourge of the earth, an unimaginable evil.
It used to be dogma that homosexuality was genetically determined, not a choice, not something that could be reversed. This was the basis for banning gay conversion therapy.
It used to be dogma that chemical castration was too evil for even voluntary use by convicted rapists and pedophiles.
Now it's dogma that it is woke teachers' duty to "encourage" their kindergarten kids to want to change their gender with puberty blockers, chemical castration, and gender mutilation surgery, all without the parents' knowledge. Washington and California have actually made it illegal child abuse for parents to stop their children's "gender affirmation" surgery and will take their children away.
It is no more moral to "affirm" children's gender confusion with genital mutilation surgery and chemical castration than it is to "affirm" their infatuation with Superman by pushing them off a roof, amputating an arm to "affirm" their fascination with "The Fugitive", or giving them a Tommy gun to "affirm" their infatuation with Bonny and Clyde.
It used to be dogma that women needed their own sports leagues and events, with equal support as men's leagues and events.
Now it's dogma that third-rate male athletes can identify as women and enter and dominate women's events.
Why do so many drag queens feel the need to read to kids, especially while dressed up as oversexualized parodies of women? I have never heard of any strippers demanding performances with kids, or straight women dressed like drag queens.
Now it’s dogma that trans people are vil and trying to corrupt children.
It’s also dogma to think that drag queens are trans, or that dressing up in comically exaggerated ways isn't entertaining, especially to children.
I love how they try to split the baby on this conundrum:
If a little boy wants to be a girl, then society is obligated to affirm that belief, even if that means breaking up families and/or punishing parents who disagree. Even though it is biologically impossible for a boy to be transformed into a girl and never in human history has a biological male transformed into a biological female.
If a little boy who identifies as gay wants to be normal, any compassionate care to affirm that belief is illegal horrific punishment, and parents and compassionate therapists face jail time. Even though there are countless cases of sexual orientation changing.
Democrats/Marxists/Globalists have a deranged secular religion where they believe utter nonsense like boys can transform into a girls, or crazy nonsense bureaucrats are benevolent, efficient, and the best masters because normal people are too stupid to live without their rule.
"Why do so many drag queens feel the need to read to kids"
Why do so many superstitious, gullible adults feel compelled to impose childhood indoctrination involving silly nonsense on students, including (if not especially) the children of others?
“ Don’t they have a right not to have the state mess with their healthcare decisions?”
You think a three year old should be able to refuse lifesaving surgery?
Do you think their parents should?
Of course. Somebody has to decide if the surgery is beneficial and appropriate. You want the three year old deciding?
I do not, but I also do not want the state deciding unless the state can keep non-medical considerations out of its decision making.
If the state could do that, a trip to the pharmacy would be very different indeed. In all sorts of ways.
But, seriously, 'gender affirming' care only became so common in the first place due to non-medical considerations. Johns Hopkins pioneered this sort of treatment back in the 1960's on an experimental basis. By the late 70's they had enough of a track record on the patients that they stopped doing them, because they simply weren't seeing any improvement on objective measures such as suicide rates, even though the patients claimed to be happy with the result.
Nothing but the politics had really changed when they resumed doing it a few years ago.
Now in Europe the cycle is repeating, programs are being scaled back because the promised benefits once again are not materializing.
If you keep the pressure on and persecute mentally vulnerable people and keep their suicide rates up, that will justify denying them medical treatment!
No, the question was, should the parent be allowed to deny a child life-saving surgery.
I do not, but I do think they have a right not to have the state prevent them from receiving beneficial care.
Children have rights. For example, they should be protected from anyone performing barbaric irreversible procedures on them.
When you are an adult, you can, perhaps, consent to horrible things. Like cutting your penis and balls off and becoming a “nullo” and consuming human testicles like this guy. https://www.gawkerarchives.com/i-still-unload-this-man-is-a-nullo-who-removed-his-1645409616
But no, children are not of the age of consent so they don’t have a right to make “healthcare decisions.” This means their parents give consent for them, but there are much greater limits on what parents can consent to for their children than what adults can consent to for themselves.
Your argument is the same as the one arguing children can consent to sex. No surprise, that's exactly what I would expect from you.
Yeah, if you don't give a shit about them as adults, you can hardly claim to give a shit about them as kids.
That makes literally no sense.
Saying "It's a bad idea but as an adult, you're allowed to make it" is giving an adult the right to ruin their own life.
But their only 'ruining' their lives based on your narrow, puritianical, constricted, bigoted worldview that has absolutely nothing to do with them. You think you can force them back into the box while they're children and thereby keep their numbers down.
To the extent that conversion therapy is a form of talk therapy, not drug or surgery, you'd think that the 1st amendment would figure prominently in discussions of banning it.
Seriously, I can't see the basis for banning conversion therapy, and claiming that 'gender affirming' therapy can't be banned. Either government can regulate what medical procedures are available, or it can't.
Of course the government can prevent hacks from providing "therapy" that increases suicide rates. But that doesn't mean it can prevent people from receiving care that saves lives.
Have you compared the tranny suicide rate to the norm?
By your standard, conversion therapy should be mandated.
No, it should be banned: https://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/press/lgb-suicide-ct-press-release/
That study did not look at either trannies or suicide rates.
The Volokh Conspiracy: A Safe Space For Right-Wing Bigots, Where Sl_ck-Jaw_d (To Describe Conservatives) Is Banned, But Transphobic Slurs Are A-OK Every Day.
Replacement awaits, clingers.
"hacks from providing “therapy” that increases suicide rates."
Every accusation is an admission.
I go one step further Brett -- Conversion Therapy is a form of Cognitive Behavioral Therapy that is essentially "brainwashing" -- it is what the North Koreans did to our captured pilots.
The ONLY difference between using CBT for Conversion and CBT for anything else is the intended outcome. It's still brainwashing, even if the desired intent is quitting smoking.
Hence the ban should be on CBT.
Because it's abusive quack nonsense that only damages kids.
Not as damaging as the gender-affirming counseling that kids get today.
You've got some froth in your mouth. No, your entire mouth.
"Either government can regulate what medical procedures are available, or it can’t."
Small clarification, state governments aren't the same as the federal government. States have a much stronger claim to the power to regulate medical care.
I think it would be wise for the Court to pair this case to a conversion therapy case, and ask the plaintiffs’ lawyers in each case whether, if they win, the other case’s plaintiffs should also win, and why or why not. The answers could be instructive.
It would be the difference between medically recognised health care and notoriously abusive fundamentalist quackery.
Nige 1 min ago
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It would be the difference between medically recognised health care
The scandanavian countries with much longer and advanced understanding transgender care and "the medically recognized healthcare" have backed off for a reason. Because the medically recognized health care advocated by the activists is not nearly as effective as promoted by the activists along with creating considerable harm.
They’ve backed off because of right-wing extremists pushing their satanic-panic fearmongering. The medical care is advocated by medical experts. The denial of medical care is advocated by bigots.
Scandinavian countries are not known for their satanic panics.
That's shit's infectious, with enough money behind it.
On the other hand
https://apnews.com/article/fact-check-norway-not-ban-gender-affirming-care-956221436313
What is Norway's policy for tranny surgery for kids under 18?
Quit lying to yourself - you know better or would know better if were objective
European medical authorities backed off because it doesnt work as advertised and because of the extreme long term damage.
A massive campaign pushed by Christian fundamentalists, entirely non-medical and purely driven by carefully and cynically cultivated hysteria.
"They’ve backed off because of right-wing extremists pushing their satanic-panic fearmongering."
Tell us more about how opposing child trans surgeries just means you want more suicidal youths.
It's not as if you lot give the tiniest shit about mental health care.
They are similar on Due Process grounds. A state can likely ban conversion therapy if and only if they can ban gender-affirming care (assuming deference is given to the state that both services are harmful).
But, they are quite different on Equal Protection grounds. The gender-affirming care ban applies only to those who want to affirm a gender that does not match their sex. Conversion therapy bans apply to whether they convert you to liking men or women, Thus, only gender-affirming care could be unlawful discrimination on the basis of sex in a Bostock-like analysis.
Identity-affirming care applies to those who want to affirm their identity as a normal person which doesn't match their sexual orientation. It has nothing to do with discrimination based upon sex.
It would be nice to see if people could actually discuss the legal issues involved, instead of just arguing about what they already know to be true.
I'll wait for another thread.
Good point loki – that opens the door for my observation
The question was limited to the equal protection issue. My first take is that transgender surgery banned for all minors, ie the law applied to equally to all. That is somewhat similar to the ban on gay marriage laws pre Obergefell – ie all individuals were barred from marrying someone of the same sex, thus no equal protection violation. (fwiw, I have been in favor of creating gay marriage statutes under the state[s] family code a good 10 years prior to Obergefell. I also think banning gay marriage was not an equal protection violation).
Loki – your thoughts on the equal protection for transgender surgery for minors?
See my comment below. The disadvantaged class here is minors. Adults can elect to have any of these treatments under the law. But, as I said below, that's a loser argument.
So, let me start by saying that as a matter of policy ... I really hate these laws.
On the EPC issue, it really turns on how you construe the law. I think that it will be tough to make the EPC argument (which is the only one before the court) because the law is targeting age, and goes to deferential review. Based on prior precedent, I find it hard to believe that it would be an EPC violation.
However, there could be an issue, because the law differentiates between sex when it comes to hormone treatment.* For example, it would allow the treatment of hormones for a boy who requires more hormones (testosterone), but not a girl. And the law does differentiate on that basis. That might be the issue when it comes to EPC.
*That would not include surgery.
Exactly. In line with Bostock, but-for being a girl, the child could have gotten testosterone (to affirm their gender identity) or puberty blockers (for a purpose other than affirming their gender identity, which makes the argument a tougher sale).
I agree with this rather obvious analysis. I thought Bostock was dreadfully wrong, but then again so was Obergefell.
At some level we are just dealing with the ascending, but logically implicated levels of absurdity from these ridiculous decisions.
If I had to argue this accepting Bostock for the sake of argument? I guess, first of all, wasn't Bostock pertaining to the words "because of sex" in Title VII? Why should that be imported to EPC?
Perhaps the but-for standard applies to both Title VII and the EPC.
Chanelling my inner-Blackman, Gorsuch provided the fourth vote to grant cert.
Well, if we look at the original meaning of the EPC, it was merely intended to constitutionalize the 1866 Civil Rights Act which in summary aimed to guarantee that newly freed black people had the same rights to enforce contracts, possess property, and enjoy security of life and limb as whites. But yes “perhaps” the judicial oligarchy can make up whatever it wants and then that is the law of the land.
Anyway, one thing to start with is that the words “because of sex” don’t appear in the EPC.
As to the "but for" test, as I've mentioned before it's well known that it has limits. The so-called butterfly effect is an illustration of how remote but for causation can be.
M L 1 hour ago
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I agree with this rather obvious analysis. I thought Bostock was dreadfully wrong,"
That was one of the few in which I disagree with Gorsuch. I tend to agree with almost all his opinions and dissents. His dissent in Gamble was spot on.
If the girl had the exact same condition as the boy, are they denied hormone therapy?
No.
You're muddying the waters by mixing diagnoses and treatments.
"It would be nice to see if people could actually discuss the legal issues involved, instead of just arguing about what they already know to be true. I’ll wait for another thread."
You're at the wrong blog, pal.
Why bother? The right to access health care is to be decided by the competing formulations of legal phrases and wordings. Fair enough. But the fact that the right are emboldened to single out for persecution one of the same groups persecuted by the Nazis, while many of them are using the Holocaust as a club to justify the killing of civilians, overshadows the legal arguments, to my mind.
What make this one class of "medical procedure" different from all others for minors?
Can a minor get a facelift on their own?
How about a comparable procedure; can a straight minor girl insist on breast enhancement?
It was a major mistake to let the government into the medical field at all,
I believe the answer to your questions are No and No.
To be more precise, the answers are No, No, and No.
Breast reduction is not uncommon for completely health-related reasons.
You sad about your Bitch Tits again?, there’s a treatment, it’s called “Push-ups” and “Stop stuffing your fat face”
Frank
lol, that reminds of a time long ago I went to a friends family doctor for a prescription to try phen-phen back before it was banned. He wasn’t my doctor and wasn’t really taking new patients, but since I was a family friend he saw me.
After the discussion about weight loss, he got quite indignant and said something along the lines of “Here, you want a prescription to lose weight? Here you go, here’s your prescription.” Then he handed me a scrip that said “Eat 1 apple and a bowl of soup 1x/day for lunch”.
And walked out the of the room.
That little lesson was about $35 in tuition. Which was alot at the time. Now $35 about 3 eggs and a piece of American-style cheese-food in Biden’s America.
Nige 3 hours ago
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Breast reduction is not uncommon for completely health-related reasons
The question is
In an Equal Protection case, you have to show that one class of people are being treated differently than others. Only such class I see here are minors. The class of "minors" has never been subject to strict scrutiny, and many areas of the law disadvantage minors on the obvious rationale that they lack maturity to act a certain way or make important, life-changing decisions.
Add to that the weight of medical opinion, at least abroad, has turned against many of these treatments for minors, it is hardly irrational for a state to determine that minors lack maturity to elect such surgery.
So it sounds like a loser to me. That satisfy you, Loki?
I wrote my brief analysis above.
I think wrote you wrote is correct, but there is a slight twist that might cause a review on the basis of sex.
What actually happens if/when the Govt switches teams in one of these cases?
"A new study from Stanford shows remarkable differences between female and male brains. The researchers found no overlap between male and female, and rejected the idea of a “continuum.””
https://x.com/ItIsHoeMath/status/1805612036287590707
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/sax-on-sex/202405/ai-finds-astonishing-malefemale-differences-in-human-brain
AI, huh?
Differences have been known for millennia. There is no such thing as a male trapped in a female body, or any of the other transgender nonsense.
Medically recognosed condition, you mean.
You know it’s Bullshit when they call it “Gender Affirming Care” instead of “Cutting off your Dick”
Frank
Right. They're assuming the premise that their gender-as-a-social-construct nonsense is true.
What if you cut off just some of the dick?
Clingers can't get enough of that. They'll go to the mat to defend that form of child abuse.
Because they're just that gullible and immoral.
A willingness to affirm a child's gender identity is already considered in California custody proceedings.
https://www.city-journal.org/article/child-custodys-gender-gauntlet