The Volokh Conspiracy
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President Donald Trump's Manhattan Convictions are Unconstitutional
The first amendment protects the alleged payment of hush money to a porn star to influence an election outcome as the u.s. supreme court will eventually rule
President Donald Trump was convicted yesterday of allegedly altering business records to conceal his alleged payment of money to a porn star, Stormy Daniels, in order to influence the 2016 presidential election. But, altering business records under New York State law is only a crime if it is done to conceal the violation of some other law. Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg alleged that the documents were allegedly falsely altered to conceal a contribution of money in violation of federal campaign finance laws or in pursuance of winning the 2016 election by defrauding the voters of information they had a right to know. Neither argument passes First Amendment scrutiny.
The federal campaign finance laws were partially upheld in Buckley v. Valeo, 424 U.S. 1 (1976). In that case, campaign expenditure limits were ruled to be flatly unconstitutional as a violation of the First Amendment's protection of freedom of speech. Under Buckley v. Valeo, an individual like Donald Trump can spend an unlimited amount of his own money promoting his own campaign. But, the Supreme Court in Buckley did uphold contribution limits on how much an individual or a group could contribute to influence an election. Alvin Bragg argues that the Trump organization's contribution of $130,000 to pay Stormy Daniels hush money exceeded federal campaign finance limits on contributions. The federal government itself has adopted a policy of not prosecuting hush money payments as illegal campaign contributions in the wake of its embarrassing loss of such a prosecution brought against Democratic Vice Presidential contender John Edwards. Edwards had paid hush money during the 2004 presidential election to a mistress with who he had had a child out of wedlock.
In 2010, in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, 558 U.S. 310, the Supreme Court held 5 to 4 that the freedom of speech clause of the First Amendment prohibits the government from restricting independent expenditures for political campaigns by closely allied corporations and groups like The Trump Organization. Under Citizens United, it was perfectly legal for The Trump Organization to pay Daniels $130,000 in hush money to conceal her alleged affair with Donald Trump.
The opinion in Citizens United was written by former Justice, and liberal icon, Anthony M. Kennedy, and it was joined by Chief Justice John Roberts, Justice Clarence Thomas, and Justice Samuel Alito all three of whom are still on the Supreme Court. Given the Court's current membership, it is highly likely that the outcome in Citizens United would prevail again today by a vote of 6 to 3. If Buckley v. Valeo was argued to be an obstacle to Trump prevailing, the Supreme Court would today, in 2024, and should today, in 2024, overrule the campaign finance contribution limits of federal election law as violations of the freedom of speech. Groups contributing to election campaigns can pay for advertising to promote candidates, and they can also pay hush money to keep bad or false stories out of the news. The effect either way is to help the candidate. You can contribute money to generate good publicity. And, you can contribute money to avoid bad publicity. The First Amendment protects freedom of speech in both cases.
Campaign finance limits prevent speech by people who want to engage in it. They have changed Congress so badly that today Members of Congress spend 70% of their time raising money rather then legislating or meeting with their constituents because of absurdly low campaign finance limits that have not been adequately raised to match inflation since those laws were enacted in the 1970's. The post-Watergate campaign finance laws were and always have been flagrantly unconstitutional in their totality.
Federal Campaign Finance laws are an incumbent protection measure that makes it too hard for challengers to knock off incumbents who have much higher name id and who have franking privileges which allow them unlimited free correspondence with their constituents through the mail. That it is not to mention the power of incumbents to steer pork-barrel spending back to their own states and districts so that they will be endlessly re-elected.
The First Amendment Freedom of Speech Clause also rules out of order Alvin Bragg's argument that Trump defrauded American voters by preventing them from hearing about Trump's affair with Stormy Daniels. Theories as broad as this one is, of "defrauding voters" would end up eliminating the freedom of speech in American elections. Voters had no "right" to know about Donald Trump's sex life. He was obviously not monogamous being married to a third wife, and voters who adhere to traditional values voted for him anyway because of the kind of stellar conservative justices he went on to appoint to the Supreme Court.
There was thus no predicate crime that Trump could have been concealing when he allegedly altered business records at The Trump Organization. Trump's convictions in the Manhattan trial are unconstitutional because they violate the First Amendment as it was originally understood.
The U.S. Supreme Court needs to hear this case as soon as possible because of its impact on the 2024 presidential election between President Trump and President Biden. Voters need to know that the Constitution protected everything Trump is alleged to have done with respect to allegedly paying hush money to Stormy Daniels. This is especially the case because the trial judge in Trump's Manhattan case wrongly allowed Stormy Daniels to testify in graphic detail about the sexual aspects of her alleged affair with Trump. This testimony tainted the jury and the 2024 national presidential electorate, impermissibly, and was irrelevant to the question of whether President Trump altered business records to conceal a crime. The federal Supreme Court needs to make clear what are the legal rules in matters of great consequence to an election to a federal office like the presidency. A highly partisan borough, Manhattan, of a highly partisan city, New York City, in a highly partisan state, like New York State, cannot be allowed to criminalize the conduct of presidential candidates in ways that violate the federal constitution.
The Roman Republic fell when politicians began criminalizing politics. I am gravely worried that we are seeing that pattern repeat itself in the present-day United States. It is quite simply wrong to criminalize political differences.
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“It is quite simply wrong to criminalize political differences.”
My old Dad taught me that when people go low, your strongest defense is to go high. Increase your formality and professionalism in direct proportion to how much they are losing their cool and abusing the system.
I know people are fighting mad about all this lawfare. I hate lawfare with every fiber of my being. But the solution isn’t to dirty ourselves by joining these partisans in the gutter, it’s to take a hose to the gutter and flush it out.
> take a hose to the gutter and flush it out.
What do you think counter-lawfare is?
‘your strongest defense is to go high’
It’s Trump, though. Bit late to try assembling a few shreds of affronted dignity. He can always, somehow, go lower.
You have always been a twit. Nonsense your arguments are. Think before writing and use intellect, reason, and truth.
If Nige was capable of such, he'd never post anything at all.
Aren't you the guy who keeps employing that debunked claim about Biden and the "voter fraud organization"? Zero intellect, zero reason and zero truth!
How can a video of Biden saying exactly that have been debunked?
The debunking isn't about what he said, it's about what it meant. The wingnut interpretation has been completely debunked.
Your inability to understand context doesn't change that.
'use intellect, reason, and truth'
Might as well, since you leave them lying idle.
It is time to play by their rules.
Use any 'rules' there are and then some. Stick not solely to conservative principals, of the modern age, but rather be basic, as in Radical - Thomas Paine type, but more reasoned and forward too.
Sen Susan Collins got right:
It is fundamental to our American system of justice that the government prosecutes cases because of alleged criminal conduct regardless of who the defendant happens to be. In this case the opposite has happened. The district attorney, who campaigned on a promise to prosecute Donald Trump, brought these charges precisely because of who the defendant was rather than because of any specified criminal conduct,” she said in a statement.
“The political underpinnings of this case further blur the lines between the judicial system and the electoral system, and this verdict likely will be the subject of a protracted appeals process,” she warned.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/susan-collins-criticizes-new-york-s-prosecution-of-trump/ar-BB1npmMk
That’s all true but so what? High-profile people get prosecuted all the time. District attorneys are themselves politicians. There’s nothing new about this. Just one more way Republicans are finally waking up to the inequities of the justice system now that they’re no longer uniformly on the right side of its systemic biases.
Notably, nobody’s much making the argument that he’s actually innocent. I think that’ll matter when the slap-on-the-wrist sentence deflates all the anger and fearmongering, and you’re left with simply an obviously guilty candidate.
If you gave up on trying to make sense of it I’m not going to blame you, but is the whole point of this post that he’s actually innocent?
As best I can tell, the point of the OP is that he should be innocent, if SCOTUS would just whisk away the campaign finance laws already... but that under current precedent, he's guilty.
paying the hush money from his personal or business funds was neither a federal crime nor a NY state crime.
There was a reason the Feds did not prosecute
‘He wasn’t prosecuted’ turns out not to be the standard here for the underlying crime being covered up (indeed Trump didn’t even need to have committed the crime himself).
The jury looked at all the facts and the law and disagrees with you. I know you’re an expert in everything and know every and all facts, but perhaps review the jury instructions to perhaps educate yourself on the local law here.
Indeed. I’d also note that there are at least two NY appeals court decisions which upheld first degree falsifying business records convictions even though the juries in those cases acquitted the defendants of the underlying crimes.
Even if we consider that ridiculous, it is how this law works.
And, of course, the allegation wasn’t that President Trump paid hush money from his own funds as the previous post suggested. That, presumably, would have been legal.
"Even if we consider that ridiculous, it is how this law works."
Yes, and that it works that way is a huge problem!
The idea of a predicate offense you do not need to prove predates the Union.
You can advocate for criminal justice reform; you cannot pretend this is an issue under originalism, or textualism, or the traditions and practices of our country.
Note: I used predicate wrong here. Please read as 'crime associated with an inchoate offense.' Ungainly but accurate.
What on earth is problematic about that?
Yes, I noticed that too. And sarcastr0's response mentions appeals being denied despite the jury acquitting the defendant of the predicate crime--implying that the defendant was tried for the predicate crime. But Trump wasn't tried for the predicate crime of election interference. No evidence was presented to a jury on that; the judge just said it happened.
Being convicted because the government says, without presenting evidence, that you did a crime, is exactly why the Constitution recognizes the right to a trial by jury. Trump was convicted here of a crime that's only a crime because of a predicate crime that the government simply deemed to have been committed by him. I call shenanigans.
Is there a reason you think that this is true? Because it, of course, is not.
paying the hush money from his personal or business funds was neither a federal crime nor a NY state crime.
True! Sleeping with Stormy Daniels also wasn't a crime! It sure is fun to try to name things Trump did that aren't crimes. Stealing classified documents! Oops... challenging!
Although those people arguing these aren't crimes to begin aren't arguing his innocence???
Strange take of yours.
Those arguments are too stupid to count. They're obviously crimes. I'm thinking of the people who are at least trying to say something plausible, like most Republican politicians. I'm no nutpicker.
So's fornication. It's just not an enforceable crime.
Talking Points Memo response links to a summary by Byron York. A conservative reporter/analyst. Seems a safe source for this blog.
Bragg campaigned in Manhattan and noted that he was involved in lawsuits against Trump and his company.
He cited it as evidence he could obtain justice against the powerful. Usual stuff. Nothing illegitimate.
Bragg took a while before he indicted Trump. People in his office thought he was being too careful. He carefully examined the evidence & the indictment shows what Trump was indicted for.
The people involved in the overall scheme were prosecuted. Bill Barr helped to protect Trump & anyway, he was in office while Cohen was prosecuted. Not going to prosecute Trump then. Since then, the Justice Department has been busy with other things.
The National Enquirer company agreed to a non-prosecution agreement. To cite the Justice Department press release at the time:
“As a part of the agreement, AMI admitted that it made the $150,000 payment in concert with a candidate’s presidential campaign, and in order to ensure that the woman did not publicize damaging allegations about the candidate before the 2016 presidential election. AMI further admitted that its principal purpose in making the payment was to suppress the woman’s story to prevent it from influencing the election.”
Trump? He denied any wrongdoing. He obstructed justice (see Florida). And so on.
There is no plot here. Republicans are selectively upset (biased) about ordinary and legitimate prosecutor behavior.
Trump is guilty and liable for many civil and criminal wrongs. He has been for his whole career. He was correctly convicted for one here, just like his own business was convicted not too long ago.
Susan Collins's selective concern is duly noted.
Susan Collins did not get it right, since Bragg did not campaign on a promise to prosecute Donald Trump.
https://www.oleantimesherald.com/opinion/braggs-trump-indictment-is-a-campaign-promise-kept/article_e7f11833-3c5b-52b7-9c5b-a1018943c3cf.html
Yes, all you MAGA types knee-jerkedly cite the exact same thing — the York piece — without having read it. Trouble is, he couldn't find a single time when Bragg promised to prosecute Trump.
"I have experience dealing with Trump and am prepared to prosecute Trump if that’s what the facts call for" is not a "promise to prosecute Trump."
Which is why York had to admit, "No, he never actually promised that, but he used secret code words that meant that."
David beat me to it but I was just going to say... do you even read the articles you link? Do you think we won't?
The closest Bragg gets is "‘I know how to follow the facts and hold people in power accountable." Then the article's all "That means Trump!" Pretty weak.
Right. Nothing to see here. No truth to the idea that going after Trump was central to Bragg’s campaign.
Uh- huh.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/06/02/nyregion/manhattan-district-attorney-trump.html
Huh? There was a debate question about Trump that both DA candidates answered? That's an even weaker sauce than Joe's article!
Man you guys sure are desperate to believe in the sanctity of your golden cow of a leader.
Oliver Cromwell Rules
Yes indeed. When and if Trump takes office, he should immediately order his DOJ to bring charges under 18 USC 241 and 242 against not only the judge and prosecutor, but every juror and bailiff as well. Play by their rules. It doesn't matter if the charges are legitimate. The point is to weaponize the DOJ against them using the precedent they set.
What conduct by the judge, prosecutor, jurors and bailiffs do you posit violates 18 U.S.C. §§ 241 or 242? Please be specific.
And why do you think a grand jury in the Southern District of New York would find a lawless indictment?
One of the alleged crimes he committed is a federal campaign violation, doesn't that invite a federal court to weigh in on if the facts as alleged violate federal campaign law?
The prosecution, without testimony, or the judges instruction claimed in closing arguments that the payments to Stormy violated Federal campaign law, so it can't be claimed the error was harmless.
No.
Witnesses aren’t typically supposed to provide testimony about what the law is: that’s the judge’s job.
The judge did, in fact, instruct the jury on the requirements of the Federal Election Campaign Act. (It was of course up to the jury to decide whether any of the payments at issue would have violated it or not.)
The Supreme Court certainly could review whether there was a prejudicial error in that instruction, on a writ of certiorari from the final decision of a state appellate court.
true - A witness is not supposed to testify what the law is.
That is the judges job.
That being said, the judge is not supposed to intentionally misrepresent the law.
Joe doing his Joe thing and angrily declaring he is the expert and this judge is lying.
In what way do you feel the judge misrepresented the law?
You must know that you aren't going to get an intelligible answer to that question. I would like to see him give it a try, though.
"One of the alleged crimes he committed is a federal campaign violation, doesn’t that invite a federal court to weigh in on if the facts as alleged violate federal campaign law?"
No. Federal courts are courts of limited jurisdiction, and can exercise only the jurisdiction authorized by an act of Congress. The only federal statute authorizing federal court review of a state criminal conviction is 28 U.S.C. § 1257(a), which permits Supreme Court review of final judgments or decrees rendered by the highest court of a State in which a decision could be had, may be reviewed by the Supreme Court by writ of certiorari as to issues of federal law which have been properly preserved in the state court system.
Inferior federal courts have no jurisdiction at all on direct review of a state criminal conviction.
My question for Balisane above is what conduct by the judge, prosecutor, jurors and bailiffs he posits violates 18 U.S.C. §§ 241 or 242. To no one's surprise, he hasn't answered.
I really did enjoy federal courts way more than a normal person should.
Those statutes prohibit conspiring with another to deprive a person of his constitutional rights or doing so under color of state law, respectively.
Trump has a constitutional right to due process, that is, to not be prosecuted in a sham proceeding. Anyone who participated in it, no matter how slight, violated his constitutional rights.
Being prosecuted is due process.
"Those statutes prohibit conspiring with another to deprive a person of his constitutional rights or doing so under color of state law, respectively."
I didn't ask what the statutes prohibit. I asked what conduct by the judge, prosecutor, jurors and bailiffs violates 18 U.S.C. §§ 241 or 242. What do you claim is the actus reus as to each defendant or class of defendants?
"Trump has a constitutional right to due process, that is, to not be prosecuted in a sham proceeding. Anyone who participated in it, no matter how slight, violated his constitutional rights."
In what manner do you claim that Donald Trump's due process rights were violated? What facts support your claim? Trump is receiving the full measure of process due to any criminal defendant. He was indicted by a grand jury. (Not a federal constitutional right, but one guaranteed by Article I, § 6 of the New York Constitution.) Through the indictment and pretrial motion proceedings, he had notice of the nature and cause of the accusation. He has been represented by retained counsel of his choosing throughout the process. Defense counsel pursued pretrial motions vigorously. A twelve person jury was empaneled. Dozens of prospective jurors were excused because of having formed an opinion. Defense counsel participate fully in voir dire. Counsel cross-examined the state's witnesses and called witnesses on behalf of Trump. Trump was present in the courtroom throughout the trial. He confronted witnesses in person. Trump had the absolute right to testify in his own defense, which he elected not to do. He had the right not to be compelled to give testimony, and the jury were instructed to draw no inference from his declining to testify. The jury were fully instructed in open court as to such matters as the burden of proof and the essential elements of the offense. The jury deliberated and returned a unanimous verdict.
Trump now has the right to be heard as to what sentence is appropriate. He can appeal the conviction and sentence as of right to the intermediate appellate court. There is the possibility of further discretionary review by the New York Court of Appeals and by SCOTUS.
What other process do you contend is due, Balisane?
Still waiting, Balisane.
Balisane, I'm not a lawyer but even I know that a trial is, by definition, due process. It's not hard to understand.
You're an idiot if you believe that the fact that a trial was held automatically means there was due process. That goes for not guilty up above too.
Once again, what other process do you contend is due?
You are correct that the mere fact that a trial was held does not automatically mean that there was due process. If some of the required elements were missing — let's say, for instance, that Trump's silence was used against him, or he wasn't permitted to have an attorney — then he would not have been given due process. What required elements of a trial do you think were missing?
Balisane appears to think that IOKIYAR is a requirement of due process.
Just to make it clear, Trump losing at trial is the exact opposite of denying Trump due process.
What was the political and racial breakdown of the jury? The outcome was predetermined, and you know it.
"Yes indeed. When and if Trump takes office, he should immediately order his DOJ to bring charges under 18 USC 241 and 242 against not only the judge and prosecutor, but every juror and bailiff as well. Play by their rules. It doesn’t matter if the charges are legitimate. The point is to weaponize the DOJ against them using the precedent they set."
Among other reasons that this suggestion is ridiculous, 18 U.S.C. §§ 241 and 242 do not create strict liability offenses. The prosecution must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that the defendant specifically intended to deprive a person of federal constitutional rights. See Screws v. United States, 325 U.S. 91 (1945) (plurality opinion) ("For the specific intent required by [§ 242] is an intent to deprive a person of a right which has been made specific either by the express terms of the Constitution or laws of the United States or by decisions interpreting them."); United States v. Guest, 383 U.S. 745, 753-754 (1966) ("Since the gravamen of [§ 241] is conspiracy, the requirement that the offender must act with a specific intent to interfere with the federal rights in question is satisfied.").
Balisane, what facts do you contend evince specific intent to violate federal constitutional rights by the judge, prosecutor, jurors and bailiffs? Please be specific.
So what? We're beyond the point where the law matters. It's pure political warfare.
The bailiff, by bringing Trump into the courtroom when it was clear to anyone a sham trial was taking place, violated his constitutional rights.
Yeah, I'm OK with trading Trump for having Obama on death row for the killing of Anwar Al-Awlaki and his 16 year old son. Straight up murder.
Defending a terrorist for a violent fundementalist religious group? How irrational can you get?
...but enough about antifa.
Glad to know civil rights protections are only for "good" guys.
in 1959, Alabama indicted Martin Luther King for felony perjury. Like Alvin Bragg in New York, the Alabama prosecutor (also a Democrat) who charged King ratcheted up a misdemeanor into a felony charge in an indictment that, like the Trump case, "was the first time in the state's history that a defendant was so charged in such a case".
As in the Trump case, the objective of the Democrats was to sideline Martin Luther King through lawfare.
Yes, go with 'Trump is just like MLK'.
Broadcast it far and wide. It's incredible outreach to the African American community!
And make sure you hit 'Dems in the South were racist 65 years ago.' No one has heard that one before - they are sure to blame the Dems of today for it!
Dems running sham trials is a legacy of theirs.
You do know what party all the Dixiecrats ended up in, yes?
They took their flag of choice with them. You don't see the Confederate Flag in Democratic events. Or arguments about not letting blacks vote. Or white nationalism.
No damikesc. You are the Jim Crow
And then damikesc was a Groyper.
"You do know what party all the Dixiecrats ended up in, yes?"
Yup, all but two stayed in the DNC. You might want to RESEARCH and not just go along with talking points.
As the South became less racist, it also became less Democrat.
Facts do not play along with your naivete.
Weird the Confederate flag migrated but none of the voters did.
Do you know who put the Confederate flag all over the South during the Civil Rights Act?
Hint: Republicans did not exist there, so it was not them.
Unlike Trump, MLK was acquitted.
You will. It find many takers of the high road among Trump supporters.
He’s been running on a platform of abuse of power for petty revenge. I’m not sure Joe you failed to notice.
So here we have an example of an actual, present time gross abuse and weaponization of the justice system targeting a political opponent but your concern is not with the parties orchestrating the real abuses, you real don't give an f about that, your supposed concerns are driven by your wet dream TDS fantasies about made up potential abuses of the victim of the real abuse. Could you be more of an f'ing clown?
No actually Riva not everyone secretly agrees with you and is lying about it because they are abusers.
What? That response makes less sense then your normal clownish responses, except as an attempt to deflect and avoid the truth. Looking forward to the next Trump administration DOJ rightfully (that would be legally, contrary to the illegal lawfare) pursing all these scunges so that these political crimes never happen again.
This is your thing - post some factual claim ("here we have an example of an actual, present time gross abuse and weaponization of the justice system targeting a political opponent") and back it up with nothing other than anger, attacking anyone who points out it's wrong with empty insults.
I suppose it saves on cognitive load.
The gross abuses of the lawfare targeting Biden’s chief political opponent are rather glaring and obvious. I’ve noted a few in these comments, countless others have elaborated in more detail. All you do is toss out ridiculous comments accusing President Trump of "running on a platform of petty revenge." President Trump is running on a platform that highlights the devastatingly bad policies of the corrupt reptile (who incidentally likes to take showers with his daughter, I wonder if some jurisdiction could prosecute that? worth looking into). This has got to be one of your most pathetic gas lighting attempts ever. Sad. As I note below, you guys beclown yourselves defending these abuses. Try to show a modicum of integrity. I know, you never heard the word, ask some to define it for you.
Riva, all I can tell you is that the Sarcastr0 of old was much different; better, more double entendre and edginess. All that is gone now. You are sparring with what remains.
Do you think Hunter Biden would’ve been charged if he weren’t Hunter Biden? John Edwards? Blagojevich? Martha? There’s nothing new about bringing charges against high-profile people, especially politicians. Hillary barely escaped.
Do you have any solutions to propose, other than continuing the cycle with even more “abuse” if that’s what you want to call it?
This issue isn't bringing charges against people with names in the news. This issue is meritless targeting of one's political opponent by weaponizing state prosecutorial resources and further abusing your target in a joke of a kangaroo court proceeding.
Being a political opponent of someone doesn't make anyone immune to the law.
This issue isn’t bringing charges against people with names in the news. This issue is meritless targeting of one’s political opponent by weaponizing state prosecutorial resources
What’s the difference? Why are Hunter, Hillary, John, and Blagojevich just “names in the news” but Trump is a “political opponent?”
further abusing your target in a joke of a kangaroo court proceeding
I didn’t see anything kangaroo about the trial, other than maybe the defense’s stupid (likely Trump-inspired) strategy. Anyway, if there were shenanigans, that’s what appeals are for. He can appeal his community-service sentence all he wants.
What's the difference? The charges against Hunter are not meritless although the DOJ did their corrupt best to go easy on the Big Guy's bagman son, just like they went easy on the Big Guy himself for stealing classified information and hiding it well, who knows where. And, nothing wrong with the trial? Apart from the violations of constitutional due process, the meritless charges, and the corrupt targeting and prosecution of Biden's chief political opponent, and the statutorily conflicted judge, yeah nothing to see there.
Notably none of those other examples were opponents of the current incumbent occupying the office they were seeking, as one minor detail.
Also none of them involved a state court coopting federal enforcement authority at the behest of the White House.
Pretending they are the same thing is a bald faced lie. Amusingly, the very fact you bring up Edwards is particularly flagrant since he did the same thing without repercussions.
One supposes you think precedent only applies in cases that are in your favor?
The fact that he was found guilty pretty much destroys your claim that the charges were meritless.
Congratulations, maybe a little premature but I'm awarding you the win for the stupidest comment on the site award for today. And there was a lot of competition.
You don't seem to understand what the word "meritless" means I guess. Not surprising, really.
You don’t seem to understand the import of a jury verdict. The biased conclusions of a hand-picked democrat NY jury did not validate the legal incoherence of the charges and the unconstitutional process involved in this banana republic farce, and it will not prevent it’s ultimate reversal. You may need to run this through a language translator that speaks TDS idiot, just to make sure you understand. And your award is secure, no need to worry.
Let me try to make this simpler for you. The matter should have been dismissed after the unconstitutional indictment, it certainly should have been dismissed after the prosecution rested and failed to prove a case. That the corrupt conflicted judge sent it to a jury is another error. It is not an argument in favor of this farce you clown.
Do you really think Bursima would have paid Hunter any money, much less $1m if he wasnt JB's son.
Obviously not! But so? The Hunter charges didn't have anything to do with that.
Hunter's greatest crime is exposing the myth of meritocracy!
Hey Douche, ask his ex-wife about that. She is suing for $2.9 million in back alimony.
Is she Burisma in disguise?
'President Trump is running on a platform that highlights the devastatingly bad policies of the corrupt reptile'
Can you point to Trump's comments and proposals on this subject?
donaldjtrump.com and virtually every interview and public statement he makes, quite in contrast to that blithering corrupt reptile Biden.
Like the ones where he confuses him with Obama?
Actually hard to tell when Obama is behind the scenes doing his best to aid Hamas against Israel.
And we're supposed to take you seriously.
Not sure how else to interpret Biden’s attempt to divide Israel’s war cabinet by announcing cease fire terms Israel never in fact agreed to. On the eve of Shabbat when the Israeli government would have difficulty responding. And Obama immediately comes out with a statement. Obama’s finger prints all over that crap. Although Biden’s inability to communicate a coherent thought does make discerning the dithering corrupt reptile’s intent difficult.
This Obama stuff seems whole cloth so of course you will never who your work. You don't do work.
You're such a lazy poster. You read so shoddily you routinely get posts 180-degrees wrong.
You never back anything you say up, just stating it more and more angrily with insults aplenty. Looks like you sprinkle phrases Trump puts on truth social into your posts.
What's the point of posting if you're going to take it this unseriously?
'Obama’s finger prints all over that crap'
More like a Democratic base horrified at the slaughter.
If the Democratic base were legitimately horrified at slaughter, they would demand the complete and utter destruction of the terrorist animals Hamas instead of supporting them.
That would be odd, given it's not currently Hamas doing the slaughtering.
The IDF doesn't "slaughter" anyone. That's propaganda from the Hamas Ministry of Health. The Hamas terrorist animals are not known for their honesty, kind of like democrats in that respect.
Oh no I might hurt the feelings of the IDF over the thousands and thousands of people they've killed.
They pretty much slaughtered those aid workers. Not sure what else you'd call it.
A lie. There are collateral deaths in any war and the IDF doesn't target civilians. It has an exemplary record under the circumstances. Now Hamas targets civilians. Stores munitions in schools, hospitals, homes, UN facilities. Launches rockets from the same. Shields themselves with civilians. Takes and kills hostages. And dupes moron anti-Semites with their childish propaganda.
It undoubtedly -- and admittedly -- targetted civilians in the World Kitchen incident.
Whatever that was it was ABSOLUTELY NOT targeting civilians. It may have been an accident. Infrared cameras could not detect the logo atop the vans and IDF mistook the vehicles for Hamas It is also possible Hamas instigated the incident. The Jerusalem Post reported that drones detected suspicious activity, including a possible Hamas gunman. The Post further reported that the IDF tried to call the aid workers involved in the field and was unable to reach them and also called the WCK headquarters and WCK couldn’t reach them either. So cut the Hamas propaganda shit. When did those Hamas terrorist animals ever take any action to warn civilians or acknowledge any wrong? Those animals target civilians, not the IDF.
So basically, you admit you’re lying and the IDF targeted the aid workers.
It may have been an accident. Infrared cameras could not detect the logo atop the vans and IDF mistook the vehicles for Hamas
Yet…
IDF tried to call the aid workers involved in the field
Think about that for one second. Does that make sense?
And when you “call someone” in a war zone and they don’t pick up, you think the appropriate response is to fire on their vehicles? Huh?
The truth is, they knew they were WCK trucks. After they blew up the first one, they actually watched the survivors scramble into one of the other vehicles on the drone video. Obviously, multiple people are not “a Hamas gunman.” Then they blew that one up and everyone died.
The IDF is monstrous. Or at least parts of it are. So deal with it.
I doubt there is a single war in human history in which there were no collateral civilian deaths. The IDF took all the steps it could in a war situation. They did not target civilians. Hamas targets civilians and lies and has far too many anti-Semite buffoons in the West falling over themselves to defend the terrorist animals.
And I'll end this noting four more hostages murdered by those Hamas animals:
Chaim Peri, 79
Amiram Cooper, 84
Yoram Metzger, 80
Nadav Popplewell, 51
Do you think it makes you seem more, or less, credible when you say things like this?
That is true. But only to people who are ignorant of the facts and the law.
He’s been running on a platform of abuse of power for petty revenge. I’m not sure Joe you failed to notice.
Which will be an upside.
There are so many Democrats and traitors he can imprison,. starting with Robert Mueller.
I think your notion that if Trump is elected he can imprison anyone he likes tells us all we need to know about your understanding of matters.
Of course, you've already signed up for Trump totalitarianism, so it should be no surprise.
He can if he and his agents do not let anything stand in the way of what they need to do.
Here is what Republican police officers, Republican prosecutors, and Republican jurors have a holy, moral duty to do, now.
Police officers, when investigating crimes, have a duty to bury evidence of guilt, and forge and fabricate evidence of innocence, if the suspect is a Republican.
Conversely, if the suspect is a Democrat, they have a duty to forge and fabricate evidence f guilt and bury any evidence of innocence.
Prosecutors must start charging Democrats with felonies, especially capital felonies. They should not let evidence, statute, Brady v. Maryland, or the United States Constitution stand in the way. If they have to suborn perjury, so be it. If they have to collude with police to fabricate evidence, so be it.
Juroes must acquit if the defendant is a Republican, even if he openly confessed in court.
Jurors must convict if the defendant is a Democrat, even if there is video evidence from three angles proving innocence beyond a reasonable doubt.
The rules have changed.
Do you remember Maraxus?
Because I will never forget Maraxus.
https://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=161693&sid=bf1e964b2d36e629e063999b4953f65a
***START QUOTE***
You’ve asserted that public officials must be held to a higher moral standard than the rest of humanity. First, I’d like to know why that is the case.
She did uphold the law. She was arrested, went to court, pled guilty to the charges (i.e. she accepted responsibility for her actions), and was punished accordingly. She could have pulled a Perry and attempted to use her position to get out of the DUI charge, but instead she had enough integrity to accept responsility for her actions.
See, when we elect a district attorney, we trust them to do one thing: prosecute crimes. So long as they prosecute crimes, and do that properly and well, they’re doing what we asked them to. They are doing the bare minimum of what we expect from them- correctly using the powers of their office to perform the assigned duty. Driving drunk may reflect poorly on the DA’s character and mean they should not have been elected… but it doesn’t mean they have failed to do the actual job the public trusted them to do. We didn’t elect this DA to be sober, we elected them to prosecute cases.
Seriously, she made a bad decision and followed it up by doing the right thing. What’s blowing my fucking mind is apparently we have shitheads on this board that are attempting to justify Rick “The Dick” Perry making a blatant attempt to shove a shill appointee into one of the few effective anti-corruption enforcement agencies in the state of Texas.
Plus, if you actually read my arguments (which I doubt), you would have to notice that IT DOES NOT MATTER whether Lehmberg has lots of integrity or no integrity. Perry is not being charged with “thinking Lehmberg has no integrity.” He is being charged with misusing the power of his office and threatening to misuse taxpayer money, in order to coerce an elected official into acting in a certain way.
It DOES NOT MATTER that you think Perry was justified in doing so because this particular elected official was dishonorable and inferior. It is not Perry’s place to hire or fire Lehmberg, and it is not his place to threaten to defund a law enforcement operation in an attempt to blackmail her into resigning against her will.
Your appeals to “common sense” do not impress me. Give me a good reason why a moral failing, which incidentally has nothing to do with investigating corruption, should automatically disqualify a person from holding office. You assert without cause that this is the case. Please provide evidence that Lehmberg’s DUI has harmed the PIU’s integrity in any way. If you can’t do this without repeating some version of your “DUIs are rly bad guys” silliness, then maybe you should just go away.
And as for The Hammer, that’s true. He did get his conviction overturned by the Texas Supreme Court, an elected body that consists almost entirely of conservative Republicans. They didn’t think DeLay actually did all that stuff, and Texas doesn’t really have much in the way of campaign finance laws anyway. It makes no matter, though. He was still a cancerous growth on Congress’ asscheek, begging for a public fall from grace. And when he got convicted the first time around, we as a nation are better off for it. Ronnie Earle did humanity a favor when he realized that DeLay broke campaign finance laws, and he did us an even greater one when he got DeLay convicted. Whether or not “justice” was actually served against him isn’t so important. The fact that he no longer holds office though? That’s very important.
Of course! And the people on the Travis Commissioner’s Court would have tossed Lehmberg out on her ass a long time ago. They’re not doing it because there are, frankly, more important things at stake. In a state like Texas where the GOP has historically run roughshod over the Dems, they cannot afford to lose powerful positions like this. Considering the number of cases coming out of the PIU, including, incidentally, a Perry-allied ex-official who channeled millions of dollars to some of his big contributors, the Travis DA’s office has more influence than just about any Democrat in the state. If Perry didn’t have the right to appoint her replacement, and he almost assuredly would have appointed a fairly right-wing replacement, I’m sure the Travis County Dems would like to tell Lehmberg to take a short walk off a long pier. Unhappily, there are more important considerations at hand.
***END QUOTE***
Back in 2014, this was an extremely fringe belief. There was no way Maraxus’s ideals could become mainstream.
Now it is clear that the Democratic Party adopted Maraxus’s ideals.
The Democratic Party is the party of Maraxus, now.
In the animated series Gargoyles, there is a character called Demona, whose schtick was vengeance against those who hurt her and her kind.
To deal with Maraxus, we must become the party of Demona!
We either fight like Demona, or go meekly into the gas chambers they will prepare for us.
There is no third option.
No, you giant doofus, no one remembers some guy making a kind of dumb comment on a random Star Wars message board ten years ago.
I have not forgotten him because an entire political party's leadership adopted his rules for all of us.
Here is one idea I have for a prosecution by Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton.
Prosecute Patrice Cullors, Nikole Hannah-Jones, and Charles M. Blow for the murder of Garrett Foster.
The argument is this.
They spread the lie about the police habitually hunting down and gunning down unarmed Black men, how the criminal justice system is systemically racist.
And because of this lie, many people, including Garrett Foster, participated in riots. And because Foster was killed in one of these riots, Cullors, Hannah-Jones, and Blow are guilty of his murder.
Under the old rules, such a prosecution would be an outrage, a violation of freedom of speech. Any prosecutor who would pursue this prosecution would have deserves disbarment, and Paxton would have deserves impeachment and removal, in addition to disbarment. I would not tolerate this even in the slightest.
But the rules have changed.
I wish that they did not change.
I did not change the rules.
Others, with the full support of media, academic, and entertainment elites, changed the rules for all of us.
The rules didn’t change. You just kept losing, and your loser leader got caught doing crimes. So your automatic response is to go fascist.
Which crimes?
Oh boy wait'll you hear the news.
Who the fuck is Maraxus?
Professor Calabresi makes a good point. Others have noted it too. The S.Ct. must step in. The sooner the better. Biden's lawfare shouldn't be allowed to poison this election cycle anymore.
They didn't step in to throw him the election like he wanted, so I'm not sure there are enough weird flags flying upside down to inspire them to jump into this.
At the very least, that fat slob and corrupt conflicted judge have appropriated and twisted FECA as a political weapon in a presidential election cycle. Can't have 50 states perverting such law which is exclusively within federal jurisdiction. The Court should step in and stop this just like they stopped the idiotic state perversion of the disqualification clause of the 14 amendment.
No they haven't, and no they won't.
No doubt about it.
Presumably the "others" aren't law professors and don't know that the Supreme Court utterly lacks jurisdiction to step in.
Lawfare is like bullying. The best way to stop a bully is to punch them in the nose. The best way to punch a lawfare bully in the nose is to yse the same lawfare against them.
We need the Supreme Court and other appeals courts to knock this kind of litigation down. Otherwise the GOP will have no choice but to fight fire with fire.
That's a nice sentiment, Michelle Obama, but the dirty truth is the person willing to lowest often wins ... at least for the short term.
Perhaps, but when people cross the legal line they need to be held accountable or it simply emboldens others to go even further.
We need a few tens of thousands of Demunists rotting in prison for life - both to restore law and order, and to serve as an example to others who think emulating their lawless actions might benefit them.
Make crime unaffordable to the perpetrators, crime diminishes dramatically.
President Donald Trump was convicted yesterday of allegedly altering business records to conceal his alleged payment of money to a porn star, Stormy Daniels, in order to influence the 2016 presidential election.
Trump is not the president. There is no, "allegedly," to it. You can come right out and publish it. Trump is a felon. And Calabresi left out that Trump did it for a corrupt purpose. Three notable legal errors in Calabresi's first sentence.
Whatever legal job this guy thinks he is trolling for, it better not involve confirmation by any but a fully fascist Senate.
Corrupt, only in a way massively severed from the common concept of it.
Corrupt is what politicians do when in power, stomping about like a bull in a china shop, waiting for payments to calm down.
Here, a transparency law built to let the people see who donates to a campaign, so they can make their own judgements on possible tit for tat, was used against someone donating to his own campaign. That’s it.
The “corruption” comes later as a declaration that this donation was a felony, and that it was to hide an embarrassment, which benefits his campaign, ergo “corruptly influencing an election”, another law on top of that.
There is nothing there in the common sense of corruption.
But there is if you’re out to git a political opponent and hurt him.
Trying to cover up a scandal before an election is easily one of the most popularly understood forms of corruption. A politician getting 'git' beause he tried to cover up a scandal is practically standard.
Of course you mean like Hunter's laptop, right?
Of course it helps to have the press and 51 intelligence official on your side.
Mostly it helps that the only scandal to come out of Hunter's laptop is you lot whining that the story was 'repressed.'
That’s because it was repressed. Don't forget about that poor shop owner that the Democrats Seth Rich'd.
That’s why no-one has ever heard… of Hunter Biden’s Laptop.
AFTER the election.
At the time, CIA agents were paid by the Biden admin to lie which led to social media blocking the story.
Come on man, everyone knows the entire intelligence industry is in the bag for Biden.
He doesn't need to pay the CIA. He's probably paying them to hold off on assassinating Trump!
They are and he isn’t because he’s a cheap fuck
he isn’t because he’s a cheap fuck
I bet Biden has a better record of paying his bills than Trump.
The October 14, 2020 New York Post story was in fact blocked (from sharing, not posting) on Twitter for approximately 36 hours, and on Facebook for a couple of days (IIRC). I'm not aware of the story having been censored or blocked anywhere else.
It was mildly suppressed, out of the platforms' legitimate concerns about it being Russian disinformation, appearing close to an election. There were still at least two weeks before the election during which the laptop story was not suppressed anywhere.
Given the number of people who early voted in that particular election, those few days *could* have had an impact.
The New York Post account was suspended for over two weeks ( until October 30).
https://variety.com/2020/digital/news/twitter-unblocks-new-york-post-hunter-biden-hacked-materials-1234820449/
During this time Twitter users were unable to share links to the articles involving the story.
Facebook suppressed sharing the story for over a week.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/zuckerberg-admits-facebook-suppressed-hunter-121655720.html
During this time of suppression it gave time for a Biden campaign official to get the 51 intelligence officials to sign on a letter that it showed signs of "Russian disinformation" even though none of them had actually seen or investigated the laptop.
Do you think the story was somehow only covered by the NY Post?
That's a level of ignorance about the modern media landscape that beggars belief.
Sarcastro
It was suppressed but not totally eliminated. In an election where a swing of a mere 50,000 votes from Biden to Trump in the various swing states even a minimal amount of suppression could be called a major factor.
Now as I linked the Twitter suppression occurred right up until days before the election. How many hundreds of thousands were denied the information from the New York Post story by this suppression? How many people were denied because Facebook suppressed sharing the story? And let's not forget that YouTube also suppressed the story.
There is also the fact that as I pointed out that it bought the Biden campaign time to round up a bunch of intelligence officials to sign the letter that falsely suggested it was "Russian disinformation." The letter that Biden cited when Trump brought up the controversy at the debate.
The suppression was real and it was a major factor in the outcome of the election.
You are claiming not just an action, but an *impact*. You have not established that at all.
'suppressed but not totally eliminated' is itself undercutting your case that there was any electoral impact.
Your NRO story on Facebook is similarly casual with implications versus impacts: "The “distribution” of the bombshell report was suppressed on Facebook for “five or seven” days when it was being determined if the laptop was real, Zuckerberg said, but users could still “share it.”
If your thesis is impact, you have a lot of work left to do if you want to establish it.
By this stupid argument, every story is suppressed. Every media outlet makes decisions about which stories to run. If a single outlet makes a decision not to run a story on one day, or to run it on page 3 instead of page 1, the story has been “suppressed” and we all get to whine about it?
I get that you lot just love a good whine. But please, this is on the lamer side, even for you.
Jeez, just how many stories have been "suppressed" by Fox News alone! Baffling.
'How many people were denied because Facebook suppressed sharing the story?'
What story were they denied?
You didn't hear about the laptop until after the election? Wow. Head buried in sand.
You have evidence of this payment and this lie and this blocking that didn't amount to one (1) tweet?
Social media never blocked the story. Also, you fucking moron, there was no “Biden administration” “at the time.” Trump was president.
That’s because it was repressed.
Hahahaha Nige 1, Jesus -34.
lot more than the story getting suppressed.
More info / confirmation of the biden family corruption. Bursima, china, etc
China- CEFC: On March 1, 2017—less than two months after Vice President Joe Biden left public office—State Energy HK Limited, a Chinese company, wired $3 million to a Biden associate’s account. This is the same bank account used in the above “Romania” section. After the Chinese company wired the Biden associate account the $3 million, the Biden family received approximately $1,065,692 over a three-month period in different bank accounts. Additionally, the CEFC Chairman gives Hunter Biden a diamond worth $80,000. Lastly, CEFC creates a joint venture with the Bidens in the summer of 2017. The timeline lays out the “WhatsApp” messages and subsequent wires from the Chinese to the Bidens of $100,000 and $5 million. The total amount from China, specifically with CEFC and their related entities, to the Biden family and their associates is over $8 million.
LOL you are citing Comer for truth.
yet you would defend the steele dosier?
Double standard
darest thou malign the dissemblings of Comer whence thou wouldst in thy inquity offer succour to the Dossier of Steele, foul varlet?
First, Comer is a flat out liar who you should not believe. It's been demonstrated over and over that if it's too good to believe, he never checks.
Second, even when he's not just printing lies, Comer thinks disingenuous editing is somehow okay. He's really without integrity.
To wit:
"a Biden associate" Who? How close an associate?
"the Biden family received" Who counts as Biden family? Received from whom? It's just money, no payor identified.
"CEFC Chairman gives Hunter Biden a diamond worth $80,000" where is this diamond? Has Joe been wearing it? Or does this have nothing to do with him?
"CEFC creates a joint venture with the Bidens in the summer of 2017" I believe this was with Hunter Biden. Comer is lying.
"The total amount from China, specifically with CEFC and their related entities, to the Biden family and their associates is over $8 million."
Associates and 'related entities' is doing a ton of work.
You are a sucker, Joe.
And how much of that is accurate and factual and documented? And what does it have to do with the laptop? And where, exactly, was this spiel presented as and with 'evidence?'
I believe we all knew about the laptop, what you are upset about is that it wasn't made the focus of attention. All the news outlets should have focused on that story and nothing else. What we know now is that there is nothing on laptop that worth the consideration the Trump campaign wanted.
Full of shit as usual, there was certainly something Sleepy’s Overlords didn’t want out, even with the stealing Sleepy only won by 70,000 votes in PA, MI, GA and AZ, won’t be as easy to fake ballots this year, Sleepys already lost AZ and GA over the border (Sleepy actually said “Lincoln Riley” was killed by an Ill-legal, even the Ill-legals aren’t gonna vote for him this time
Frank
Remind me what office Hunter Biden is running for. I must have missed the news.
What office is Alito's wife running for?
Maybe she'll let us know with a few more flags.
WTF does that mean? It's stupid even as whataboutery.
Her husband is a SCOTUS justice. He's the one being criticized, not her.
She can fly all the damn flags she likes, but Alito needs to show some integrity and recuse himself from cases she is quite publicly raging about.
This is a lie.
Corruption is how politicians gain wealth hand over fist.
You just made that up.
That is one of the sorts of scandals that they sometimes get caught covering up, yes.
Why weren't Clinton campaign officials prosecuted for actually violating campaign finance laws and misreporting these expenses? The celebrating Democrats have no idea how much damage they have done to our system of laws.
No, neither Clinton nor any official nor her campaign were prosecuted. Prosecution implies a trial. Never got that far.
Wasn't that explained to you before?
That is of course wrong. Michael Cohen made the donation. But Cohen and the campaign did not report it as such. Later, Trump had documents falsified to hide everything about this.
Hey you bigot, he's a Justice Impacted Individual.
Don't use racist words like "felon".
Trump: Impacted By Justice does have a ring to it.
Using the same material twice?
He did, yes.
Trump Lynched by Corrupt Democrats.
Democrats once again start a civil war.
Dr. Ed 2, if in the next life you meet Emmitt Till or Leo Frank, I hope they beat the stuffing out of you every day and twice on Sunday for trivializing the horror of lynching.
You don't even know the origin of the word.
And while you are being all high and mighty, care to speculate on what would happen to Emmitt Till today for doing the exact same thing?
You're another twit who occasionally has a valid point, so make one absent personal vindictiveness.
May 30th is a day that shall live in infamy.
And "President" is a title that former Presidents have for life.
At least in the America I used to know.
No Title of Nobility shall be granted by the United States: And no Person holding any Office of Profit or Trust under them, shall, without the Consent of the Congress, accept of any present, Emolument, Office, or Title, of any kind whatever, from any King, Prince, or foreign State.
...and none has.
Is it not customary to address RETIRED judges as "Judge"???
And FORMER Ambassadors as "Ambassador"?
And RETIRED Professors as "Professor"?
The definitive anecdote is when Evita Peron was visiting Italy and being escorted by some retired admiral. She was complaining about how the Italian magazines were calling her a prostitute. He responded, "I know how you feel. I've retired from the navy for twenty years and people still call me 'admiral'."
Retired mayors are often addressed as "your honor."
But a felon's a felon for life.
Is Trump a retired judge, ambassador, or professor? Pretty sure not. Is he being called judge, ambassador, or professor? Pretty sure not. So what does that have to do with anything?
Retired presidents are not (correctly) referred to in the present as "president." Of course, when discussing their presidency, one can say, "President Reagan gave an eloquent speech in Berlin" or "President Ford fell down the steps of Air Force One." But we do not say, "President Carter entered hospice," because he's not president.
You guys are so weird. He’s just some asshole who got on the wrong end of a criminal charge. Many assholes have that happen to them every day. But you’re talking about it like it’s the worst thing ever. It’s not.
And we wouldn't even be here but for the show trial needed to get a political opponent.
Or, we wouldn’t be here if Republicans hadn’t elected a corrupt rapist fraudster.
The republicans didnt elect biden nor Bragg nor M garland
We could list a lot more people who aren't corrupt rapist fraudsters the Republicans didn't elect of you like.
Hypocrisy from the left knows no bounds
It’s hypocrisy of the left to not to ALSO elect corrupt rapist fraudsters when Republicans elect corrupt rapist fraudsters.
Trump is a convicted felon.
Biden and the Clintons are convicted only in Joe's mind.
This is a double standard, he says.
Joe_dallas — Remarkably, Trump was convicted not on testimony, "from the left," but on the basis of testimony and documentary evidence created by his closest associates.
Like when some piece of shit drug addict/wife beater Floyd George died of a Fentanyl overdose? I agree with you
Frank
1. So you’re agreeing with me that Chauvin was an asshole? Right on.
2. You guys are so weird. But bringing up George Floyd/Chauvin does make a certain amount of sense: One common through-line in online right-wing thought is that outcomes that invert an imagined natural order or hierarchy break your brains.
It is not the case that former Presidents retain the title of President, unlike governors, senators, mayors, etc., because there is only one President at a time.
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/03/05/were-there-last-minute-changes-to-trump-v-anderson/?comments=true#comment-10474809
You can't define fascism without looking it up, go ahead, prove I'm an A-hole, it's AlGore's Interwebs, nobody will know you cheated.
Did what for a corrupt purpose? Negotiated an NDA, which is not illegal? Booking, in 2017, such expenses as legal expenses. Not illegal. In fact, under federal law (which Bragg has no authority to enforce anyway) it would in fact have violated federal election law (which superseded any state law and which as noted, the fat slob had no authority to enforce) to have characterized this as a campaign expense. Now Hillary, in her fraudulent scheme to influence the 2016 election paid here operatives, through a law firm, to manufacture a fake "Russian collusion" narrative, and booked it as a legal expense. There's the real crime in the 2016 election. And we haven't even gotten to the gross constitutional and other legal infirmities in this clown show, from a conflicted judge, denial of due process, and the Biden administration's corrupt slimey hands orchestrating this through the former # 3 guy at DOJ, who made mysteriously leaves the DOJ to work for that fat slob Bragg (another crime here may be who stole that fat slob's neck, I can't see it anywhere), You people beclown yourselves defending this. Try to have a little integrity.
Why would it have been illegal to declare it as a campaign expenditure?
The only way out of this through the First Amendment that I can see is for SCOTUS to hold transparency laws unconstitutional as applied to hush money payments, on a theory that candidates have a free speech right to make secret payments. That’s not going to happen.
Look Randal, the bottom line is Cohen was stealing from Trump, hence ALL of Cohen's bills are bad data.
Right now, I have a company called LabCorp (MayTheyBurninHell) billing me for $168 worth of blood tests that my insurance company has already paid them for. Yet LabCorp (MayTheyBurninHell) is still sending me a $168 bill that I don't owe.
It would be easier to just pay it -- I don't intend to -- but it would be easier. And if I did, and recorded in my business expenses the payment to LabCorp (MayTheyBurninHell) of $168 for medical expenses or even for blood tests, would I have committed fraud?
Or would I be the victim of a fraud? Let's say that I paid it just to get it off my credit record so I could get a car loan? Would that be fraud?
And how is this different from what Donald Trump did?
His CROOKED lawyer sent him bills and he paid them. He may even have added a tip to the bills -- is that illegal? Is it illegal for me to tip my barber?
So what is his crime? Not having sufficient internal audit controls to catch Cohen's fraudulent billing? But what if it is cheaper to just presume that all bills are legitimate unless you know otherwise and just pay them? Auditing and due diligence costs money and in addition to pissing off your vendors, if your vendors aren't stealing from you (much), it will cost a whole lot more than just eating the theft.
We just had a whole trial where nobody believed that line of BS.
You guys keep trying this "Trump is too stupid to know what's going on all around him" defense but it's pretty lame and self-defeating, really.
Anyway, I was more interested in Riva's answer to my question.
Anyway, I was more interested (as usual) in Dr. Ed's psychedelic interpretations of the law, myself 🙂
Dr. Ed isn't even smart enough to know that the argument that "Cohen was stealing from Trump" is actually damning of Trump's guilt. Under Trump's theory, he was paying Cohen for legal services, so Cohen wasn't stealing from him. In order for Cohen to be stealing from him, you have to believe that Trump was reimbursing Cohen for campaign expenses — in other words, that Cohen's testimony at trial was true — and that Cohen overbilled him and pocketed the difference.
My answer is below. It is clearly, objectively a personal expense under FECA. The fat slob and conflicted corrupt judge misappropriated and misapplied FECA. This whole matter is a disgrace.
In what way do you think the judge misapplied FECA? He instructed the jury as to the standard you've referred to. The relevant factual determination was the jury's to make.
His instructions were less than clear or accurate and allowed a divided jury to pick and choose theories. But the matter never should have have gone to the jury because as a matter of law there was no FECA violation and no role for the jury (putting aside of course that the state of NY has no business administering or interpreting FECA in the first place)
Riva's a proud dropout from Twitter Law School, but he's an expert on campaign finance law.
Because under FECA’s objective standards, any expense that would exist irrespective of a campaign is personal. The Stormy matter predated the campaign. Regardless of the timing of the payment, it was objectively personal under FECA.
Oh. That’s just dumb. Remember, this is a Cohen expense, or at least loan. You think Cohen would’ve done it if there hadn’t been an election happening?
Even if you do, there was plenty of evidence that it was election-related. Enough for a jury to conclude it was.
The problem here, I think, is that MAGA has decided that politics is a sport, so you take all these things personally. It’s not personal. It’s also not a sport. It’s a competition between candidates, but not between Americans. That sort of factionalism is fucking up America. We all win when the best candidate wins.
But even if it were a sport, where’s the sportsmanship? How are you such sore losers?
I've given you the federal standard. It is of no import that you don't like it and don't want to apply it, other than making you look like an f'ing imbecile. FECA regulations have nothing to with MAGA.
The standard of “the expense wouldn’t exist but for the campaign” was met as I already pointed out, according to the jury. It doesn’t really matter if you think it wasn’t met.
I mean, multiple witnesses testified to it. This is a really silly tree to be barking up.
Yeah, the jury was instructed as to the standard. And evidence was presented supporting the assertion that the payment was (and other payments were) made because President Trump was running for office.
People can, of course, disagree with what the jury (may have) concluded. We can believe that the evidence wasn't sufficiently persuasive. But that was the jury's decision to make. I don't see where they were wrongly instructed on the law.
Like I noted above, I don’t speak retarded TDS so I guess it’s not really possible to get through to you morons. There was no FECA violation. The standard is not "oh the payment was made because President Trump was running for office" Objectively speaking, would the expense exist irrespective of the campaign? Expenditures made during a campaign can always, in a way, be construed as made for the campaign. Buying new clothes, getting a haircut, joining a health club. That doesn't matter, all those things are personal. Stop trying to defend this garbage as a legitimate application of the law. Reveal in your repulsive lawfare if you want like good democrat goons but stop trying to defend this garbage as a legitimate application of the law
...but, but, but Trump did something so it must be illegal.
I mean… if there were multiple witnesses saying that the $130,000 haircut was solely for the campaign, and he doesn’t usually get haircuts, and the haircut was right before an October debate, then yeah, a jury might find it to be a campaign expenditure.
Or is your argument really that Trump pays off his mistresses on a regular basis, just like getting haircuts?
You guys keep accusing us of being deranged. I don’t really care about Trump. What concerns me is how brainwashed you all are. Deranged? Look in the mirror! You’re the ones threatening civil wars and violence… with Jan 6 as precedent! All over this dumbass.
Trump? Trump’s just this guy, you know?
See above. I don't speak retarded TDS. There was no FECA violation. Celebrate your republic ending lawfare if that's what gets you off. There is nothing legitimate about this disgrace.
Yeah, that's what I thought. No substance, just impotent rage. If you're gonna be pointlessly mad at something, be mad at carbon dioxide for not being as harmless as you wanted and claimed it to be.
Maybe Riva does think that. Thing is, it doesn't matter what Riva thinks. It matters what the jury thought.
Any of us are allowed to weigh the evidence however we want and form whatever conclusions we want — even if, like Riva, we don't know what the evidence actually said — but at the end of the day, the only conclusions that matter are the jurors'.
I don't understand the point of this; you're not a lawyer, and you don't know what the fuck you're talking about. Every one of these talking points has been decisively refuted here. Nevertheless, you could still pretend these notions had some merit before, when everything was up in the air. But now Trump is a convicted felon no matter how many times you stomp your feet and repeat these things that are utterly wrong. And you obviously realize it, which is why you're reduced to insulting Bragg's appearance.
He's guilty of beating Hillary.
He should get a medal for that.
He didn't give himself a medal for that? Did he at least try?
The opinion in Citizens United was written by former Justice, and liberal icon, Anthony M. Kennedy
You mean the Conservative Justice who retired during Trump's Presidency to ensure that his successor would also be a Conservative?
Sure, it's tangential to Calabresi's argument. But the fact he's willing to misrepresent the truth about something so obvious should make one extremely hesitant to take anything else he says at face value.
He used a lowercase "liberal", the good kind, not the evil kind "Liberal".
You mean the "conservative" who gave us gay marriage?
Barry Hussein was the candidate against SSM in the 08' erection, didn't come to the PC position until the Polls, I mean Parkinsonian Joe got him to change his mind in 12',
Frank
Lol he didn’t agree with you guys on one thing, and suddenly he gets the scare quotes.
Barry Hussein was the bigot who didn’t want Turd Burglars to suffer Holey Matrimony, he’s also the one who tried to win the “Good” war in Afghanistan, one of the few Ish-yews Sleepy’s been right about
Frank
There's no legitimate argument that the Constitution protects spraying seminal fluid into another man's anus.
On a scale of 1-10 how hard were you when you typed that out?
Anthony Kennedy? Not a liberal icon? Made me look again.
Maureen Hoch (PBS) wrote that he "was widely viewed by conservatives and liberals alike as balanced and fair" during conformation hearings.
Kennedy "was also known for siding with the court's liberal justices on high-profile social issues like same-sex marriage and abortion" but he "was slightly more conservative than former Justice O'Connor was on issues of race, religion, and abortion".
Kennedy's majority opinion in Kennedy v. Louisiana (2008) was joined by the court's four more liberal justices.
I've read more criticism of A. Kennedy from conservatives and more praise of him from liberals than vice versa.
I learned a rare new thing. CDS.
No. He’s not. Liberals and leftists did not like him. Sure they were glad for the wins like SSM and death penalty stuff, but they also correctly viewed him as an erratic conservative whose vote was never guaranteed. The fact that some dumb reporter thought he was “fair and balanced” isn’t evidence of anything.
Anyone who has actually studied Kennedy on the Court can tell you dude was conservative.
Won't stop those who are obsessed with the gays or abortion to hold forth, but that's more their reductive world than Kennedy.
At the very least, whatever Kennedy was or was not, he’s clearly not an “icon” to ANYONE let alone liberals.
He's low-key my least favorite opinion writer, at least in the modern era.
The highest court in the land should at least gesture towards doctrine for lower courts to follow, not just a bunch of rumination.
When Scalia criticized Kennedy’s Obergefell opinion for containing the “Mystical Aphorisms of the Fortune Cookie” he was absolutely right. Smart liberal lawyers loved the result but did not like that opinion! In addition to being badly written it was useless as doctrine. Obviously the liberals just went with it without concurrences to secure the result. But it would have been a way different and way better opinion if any one of them had wrote it. (Kagan’s would have been best, followed by Sotomayor.)
He also denounced Kennedy's "sweet mystery of life" opinion in Casey.
You're taking the fact that people on the left respected him for being a moderate and turning that into "liberal icon".
The fact that people are defending Calabresi's framing absolutely boggles the mind.
Yeah. That is an incredibly stupid thing to say. If he actually ever asked liberals or leftists about Kennedy they’d at best give him mixed reviews. More than likely they’d say he was all over the place except on gay rights and was the critical vote on some really bad conservative decisions/in dissent on some liberal wins.
Whatever any particular liberal or leftists thinks of Kennedy !the reviews over all are way too mixed for him to be “an icon” among liberals! Icon means he’s widely revered and respected. He’s not!
I think Calabresi's failing mind confused him with John Kennedy.
No, the Justice who made sure his replacement would be Kavanough...https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/courts_law/justice-kennedy-asked-trump-to-put-kavanaugh-on-supreme-court-list-book-says/2019/11/21/3495f684-0b0f-11ea-8397-a955cd542d00_story.html
So a conservative.
voters who adhere to traditional values voted for him anyway because of the kind of stellar conservative justices he went on to appoint to the Supreme Court.
Seems to be some sort of temporal impossibility. Someone can't vote for someone because of something that candidate later did.
Correct !
This was another bogus trial perpetuated by the illegal Joe Biden Junta on its quest of illegitimate actions in destroying the USA.
Making up law or rules after the fact is illegal.
How have you so quickly forgotten 2016? Were you a child then, or are you a dementia patient now?
One of the selling points of Trump in 2016 was his list of judicial picks and it was well known that whomever won was going to get at least a few picks. That the alternative was a Clinton was kind of a big deal at the time.
I'm going to assume, at least for the moment, that you suffered a major head trauma in the intervening years.
There's something about the massive condemnations of the iniquities of the justice system in relation to Trump that goes with the primary acheivement of his administration, securing a majorty of conservative Supreme Court Judges.
Its not against the law to pay 'hush money'.
So let me ask a question. What did Trump do specifically that was illegal? Give me more than the vague 'falsified his invoice for Cohen' Exactly how did he 'falsify the record'? I'm asking because nobody reporting or talking about this seems to know.
Near as I can tell the jury simply pretended they were mindreaders and decided Trump paid Cohen to influence the election rather than for personal reasons.
Perhaps they believed Cohen?
The convicted perjurer that also confessed he stole money from Trump during the trial?
THAT is the thing I don't understand -- Cohen admitted that his billing records were fraudulent, i.e. he was stealing from Trump, and that Trump paid them anyway (i.e. Cohen was successful in stealing from Trump).
So how can you then turn around and convict THE VICTIM of filing fraudulent records? He got a bill from his lawyer for what he thought was legal services, he paid it and listed it as for legal services -- Trump was not the person committing the fraud.
The evidence was a non-issue. They were never going to judge the case in good faith.
'Crook works for crook' is not a new thing in the world.
Because two things can be true at once.
Allen Weisselberg calculated the payment to Cohen was calculated as follows. $130,000 to reimberse Cohen for the playment to Stormy Daniels, plus $50,000 to reimberse Cohen for a payment to Red Finch, for a total of $180,000. If the $180,000 had been recorded as reimbersements, Cohen wouldn’t have to pay income tax on them, but since the reimbersement would be recorded as payment for legal services, Cohen would have to list the $180,000 as income on his taxes in order to make his tax returns match the Trump Organization records. Since Cohen’s marginal tax rate was approximately 50%, Weisselberg added on another $180,000 to cover the tax Cohen would pay on the money. Finally, Weisselberg added on a $60,000 bonus that Cohen felt he was owed.
At a meeting between Weisselberg, Cohen, and Trump, Trump signed off on the amount, agreeing that the extra $180,000 for taxes was a reasonable price to pay in order to misrepresent the payments in the Trump Organization books.
Trump regularly rips off his suppliers. The way this works is that Trump will contract for something, and then when the bill comes due, a representative of Trump will tell the vendor, “We don’t want to pay. Now, you could sue us for payment, but that would take a long time (our lawyers are very good at delaying things), and you would stuck with a big legal bill (our lawyers would file every possible motion under the sun, and your lawyer would have to write replies to all of them). It would be much better to just settle this dispute out of court.” This doesn’t work when the vendor has deep pockets, which is why Trump tended to target small vendors who could very well be forced into bankruptcy if they didn’t get any money at all.
So, in keeping with Trump’s philosophy, Cohen stiffed Red Finch, paying them $20,000 instead of the $50,000 that they were owed. However, Cohen didn’t tell Weisselberg or Trump that he had done this, so Trump overpaid when reimbersing Cohen for the Red Finch payment. That’s one of the risks of running a criminal enterprise--if you hire employees to steal money, they might decide to steal from you.
Trump didn’t get bills “for what he thought was legal services.” Trump got bills for what he knew weren’t legal services, after having agreed to pay an extra $180,000 in order to allow the payments to be misrepresented in the Trump Organization records.
Because nobody intelligent believes that Trump "got a bill from his lawyer for what he thought was legal services."
People believe in stupider things
Get rid of the, "tendentious, "mindreaders," and you have grasped the concept of circumstantial evidence. But given the documentary evidence, the circumstantial evidence is icing on the cake. Or, you could turn it around. The cake baked with only circumstantial evidence remains pretty good. The one baked with nothing but the documentary evidence is delicious. The one with both ingredients is sensational.
In other words they just guessed like I suspected. Thanks.
I'm beginning to grasp why your primary defence of Trump remains whining about being ignorant of what he was even charged with.
The vast majority including you don’t know beyond the vague ‘falsified business records for Cohen paying off SD’ the Dems are parroting. Thats why nobody has yet responded with any actual answer to my question. You guys don’t even understand what he’s being charged with yet you’re so sure x and y punishment should be meted out to him.
How many times are people expected to answer the exact same question before they get wise? Your ignorance is your own, and you cherish it.
They have been posted on the VC many times. The three crimes the prosecution offered are also covered in the media.
If you don’t know by now then go do some homework.
Well it's not as simple as Hunter lying about being a Drug Addict on his form 4473, an actual Federal Felony that (mostly Black) Peoples go to Federal-Pound-Me-in-the-Ass Prision for.
Frank
The "other crimes" are laid out in full detail at the link below, starting on page 11. Anyone who claims they don't know what they are is being ignorant by choice.
https://www.nycourts.gov/LegacyPDFS/press/PDFs/People-v-DonaldTrump2-15-24Decision.pdf
So explain it in a sentence like I did with Hunters crimes
Trump cooked his books to hide a campaign expenditure.
Don’t speak in legaleze
that is a misdemeanor.
Don’t speak in legaleze
Because "form 4473" is just something everybody talks about at the water cooler.
The three crimes are not in the indictment.
The three crimes are not in the verdicts
In the law. It its not in the legal documents, it does not apply to the legal conclusion.
In the jury instructions, it was one object crime: NY 17-152 which proscribes a conspiracy to "promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means." The "unlawful means" in the jury instructions were violations of federal campaign finance law, NY state tax law, and falsification of other business records.
The alleged violation of NY State Tax law was a gross up of Cohen’s compensation to account for a non deductible expense incurred by Cohen. That is absolutely not a violation of NY state or Federal tax law.
https://www.nycourts.gov/LegacyPDFS/press/PDFs/People-v-DonaldTrump2-15-24Decision.pdf
Another loss to Trump's Defence team here.
NOPE.
I've been asking the same question.
Identify the Action taken by Trump,
ALL the evidence, never once links DJT to an act to denote an expense entry.
The Payable accountant, the Comptroller, the CFO. NONE provided evidence DJT was involved in the mundane ledger entries.
Only 12 counts were even about the ledger entries. Others were about checks that Trump himself signed!
Are you stupid, lying, or actually trying to argue that Trump was guilty of just 22 of the 34 counts?
The VC is not part of the indictment
AmosArch, if you get all your news from sources that want you misinformed, guess how you end up. Find some competent media and pay attention.
He never violated the law and all opposed are wrong, dangerous, and in error of the law.
This article gets into the specifics:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/alisondurkee/2024/05/30/trump-convicted-here-are-the-election-and-tax-laws-he-was-charged-with-breaking/?sh=65048fbaf1e5
Paying off Stormy Daniels was not a crime.
Therefore, he did not cover up a crime, and falsioying business records were not felonies.
Well, I am not a lawyer, so I will leave the details to those who know more about the law — I was simply offering one account for Amos. My lay person impression was that the crime was not the pay off but a “campaign contribution” that exceeded the limit (according to Forbes) designed “…to promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means.” Frankly, it all struck me as rather tawdry episode that could have been entertaining journalism but not an expensive criminal case.
A contribution that the Federal government, who is charged with enforcing Federal law, declined to prosecute.
Meaning that the Federal statute he is implied to have violated was never a charge he was faced with, nor is New York State empowered to make any charges related to these theoretical violations.
There is zero chance this won't be overturned on appeal, or at least if we still are a constitutional republic that's the case, but the irony of all this is that these charges are absolutely intended to influence the up coming election yet it is unlikely Bragg will be held to this standard.
Additionally, it's kind of an issue when a DA runs on a platform of going after a former President and then then decide to do exactly that without recusing themselves. If a Republican DA pulled this with Obama, you can bet the standards would suddenly be vastly different.
Under what grounds will it be overturned on appeal? The crime is not a separate element to be proven, only the coverup.
If a Republican DA pulled this with Obama, you can bet the standards would suddenly be vastly different.
Hypothetical double standards are always so stark.
Usually, one would need to prove the underlying crime in order to charge someone with a cover up of said crime would they not?
Not to mention that the 'election interference' they want to charge Trump with is not a state crime thus it is not within a city DA's jurisdiction. They certainly can't take it as read that he violated federal law without a charge let alone a conviction.
Hence, this will be over turned or at the very least sent back to State court. I foresee a lot of back and forth there, lasting likely until the election, which is of course the overall goal in the first place.
Which is why it's especially amusing that Bragg will not be held to the same standard despite the pretty obvious political motivation here.
I don't even like Trump, but you have forced my hand into voting for Trump. Flagrant disregard for the law and justice itself can not be rewarded no matter how distasteful the personality of a politician might be. I'd say the same thing about Clinton, as well, but apparently no reasonable prosecutor would bring charges against a Clinton so make of that what you will.
Usually, one would need to prove the underlying crime in order to charge someone with a cover up of said crime would they not?
Nope!
Examples of crimes where another crime is involved, but does not need to be established or sometimes to even have occurred:
-Attempt
Conspiracy
-Solicitation
Tilted says there are other examples of this criminal construction playing just fine in NY courts.
There is no jurisdictional issue because the underlying crime is not an element.
I don’t even like Trump, but you have forced my hand into voting for Trump. Yeah, this is always bullshit when someone claims it.
It really isn't always bullshit when someone says it, especially since I didn't vote for him in 2016 and wasn't planning to this time around either. Feel free to imagine whatever you like about me, but know that it's a strawman that lives in your head.
As for the criminal examples, I notice that none of those are federal crimes. It's perhaps notable that the New York law in question has never been enforced, therefore it's general constitutionality or even basic function has never been determined in court.
Using a former President as the litmus test for this particular statute is, quite frankly, insane. It shows just how desperate Bragg was to fulfill his campaign promise to get Trump in particular, which is equally insane if you take even a single step back.
-Attempt
Conspiracy
-Solicitation
Tilted says there are other examples of this criminal construction playing just fine in NY courts.
There still need to be an overt act.
Paying off Stormy Daniels was in no way a crime.
I mean I can't be sure, but your so dead-set on Trump being innocent it is very hard to believe you were not already well into his fold.
I mean, "the New York law in question has never been enforced" is absolutely incorrect. Just laughable. Where did you get that idea?
It's hard to think you'd be so easy to fool without having already bought in deep.
Considering that John Edwards himself did the same thing, only with a much clearer intent to influence an election and directly out of campaign funds, it's out of touch to assume that the same or lesser actions by a Republican could or should be treated any differently.
There is literally precedent stating you are wrong on this issue, and New York is absolutely not empowered to make any ruling that hinges on a violation of a Federal campaign violation that he was never charged with.
One can be suspicious of the reasons why Trump was never charged, but frankly the FedGov has been very wary of charging with campaign violations in the past so it should be little surprise they are still hesitant to do so today. Anyone with an ounce of independent thought should easily be able to notice that fact, but it's understandable that a partisan wouldn't see it.
It becomes even more ludicrous when you realize Congress has a fund for this very purpose, that being shutting up sexual abuse allegations. This is rather like the fox guarding the hen house.
Just a quick reminder on John Edwards.
He was tried. Before a jury. The jury fund him not guilty on one charge, and deadlocked on the others.
Given the findings of the jury, and Edwards' incredibly successful defense, the prosecutors chose to not continue.
While there are many other differences in the case, the fact that someone was able to convince a jury that they were not guilty of something is not "precedent" that a crime did not occur. For example, after the OJ verdict, it was not the law of the land that murder was no longer a crime.
Just trying to point this out.
"A contribution that the Federal government, who is charged with enforcing Federal law, declined to prosecute. "
But it was Bill Barr who stopped the DoJ from pursuing the case, at Trump's direction, so I am mildly skeptical of using this as evidence that there was no case.
https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/why-did-federal-prosecutors-drop-trump%27s-hush-money-case
Perhaps that skepticism is wise, but regardless if he wasn't tried let alone found guilty it's not a good look especially under an obviously hostile DA. If one wants faith in the legal system, this is not the way to accomplish that.
At the very least, a change of venue should have been granted based upon the DA's own public statements. A recusal would have also been wise to avoid the obvious appearance of impropriety.
"...an obviously hostile DA."
Again, I am not a lawyer, but in my limited experience as a juror over 40 years I have yet to see a DA who was not hostile to the defendant. That's kinda their role. Imagine if "an obviously hostile DA" was a reasonable grounds for overturning a conviction! No one would every be convicted...
How many DA's have you worked with that literally campaigned against the person they were now trying in court one wonders. I'd guess zero since under normal circumstances that is cause for recusal in a sane world.
I'm not sure I follow the implication of your question. Why would a prosecutor present a case differently if s/he had campaigned against the defendant, as opposed to not having campaigned against the defendant? Presumably the role of the DA is to present the strongest possible case -- I could see a problem if the DA and the defendant were golfing buddies or brothers-in-law, but since the DA is already "biased" against the defendant, what's the issue if the DA campaigned against the defendant?
Sorry if that sounds naive, but I don't see any conflict of interest -- the interests of the DA did not change....
"But it was Bill Barr who stopped the DoJ from pursuing the case"
Barr resigned from Attorney General in 2020. What has been stopping the DOJ since then?
"A contribution that the Federal government, who is charged with enforcing Federal law, declined to prosecute."
Au contraire. The federal government (during Donald Trump's administration) prosecuted Michael Cohen for campaign finance violations, among other offenses. https://www.justice.gov/usao-sdny/pr/michael-cohen-pleads-guilty-manhattan-federal-court-eight-counts-including-criminal-tax Cohen pled guilty and went to prison.
Last I checked, Cohen and Trump are not the same person. If they had evidence on Trump, one would wonder why they declined to follow that line of inquiry any further.
Good question. As I understand it, a possible federal case against Trump was considered as early as 2018, but the DoJ principle that a sitting president should not be tried for a criminal act (Mueller's point, and, of course Bill Barr's interference) put it on hold.
1) Bragg did no such thing.
2) Recuse himself? There is no requirement that a prosecutor not be biased against a criminal! That doesn’t even make any sense! Judges and jurors have to be unbiased. Police and prosecutors do not. Police and prosecutors are pretty much always opposed to people they're going after!
To put it another way: the U.S. prosecuted Zacarias Moussaoui, the so-called 20th hijacker, for his role in the 9/11 attacks. Do you think that any of the people on the prosecution team were unbiased about Al Qaeda? Do you think that this somehow meant his trial was unfair?
It was for Michael Cohen.
David.
The Indictment lists the charges against DJT
The Verdict lists the crimes DJT was found guilty.
The 3 mystery crimes show up in no court documents.
As I have written here, I am not a lawyer, so my simple note was an effort to be helpful when Amos asked what specifically Trump was charged with. If the Forbes article is wrong, you might contact Forbes.
They don’t show up in any court documents except for all of the court documents which they show up in. For example, they show up in the statement of facts in support of the indictment, the defense’s omnibus motions to dismiss, the prosecution’s response to those omnibus motions, the judge’s order on those omnibus motions, and the jury instructions.
The specifics of the concomitant crimes aren’t material elements of the first degree FBR charges. See People v Taveras (Court of Appeals of the State of New York, 2009):
“Read as a whole, it is clear that falsifying business records in the second degree is elevated to a first-degree offense on the basis of an enhanced intent requirement — ‘an intent to commit another crime or to aid or conceal the commission thereof’ — not any additional actus reus element (Penal Law § 175.10).“
So why would the indictment necessarily list the concomitant crimes?
I would call this a lie, but I think it's just pure ignorance on your part. The crimes — which were and are not mysteries — in fact do show up in court documents. In fact, Trump and Bragg litigated them. Indeed, Bragg originally named four crimes, but after Trump's motion, Merchan ruled out one of them, leaving only three remaining ones. Each of them were spelled out, in writing, in court documents. Trump served a request for a bill of particulars in April 2023; in May 2023, a full year before the trial, each of the crimes was identified. In September 2023, Trump moved to dismiss, and Merchan, as noted above, agreed with him as to one of those and rejected his argument as to the other three.
The OP mentions two of the three suggested crimes, Amos.
the OP is not the indictment
Clearly it doesn’t have to be in the indictment.
Creating random requirements so they aren’t met and thus Trump is innocent is a sad place to be at.
Presidential campaigns file monthly reports with the Federal Election Commission (FEC). These are filed on the 20th of each month, and cover expenditures and contributions for the prior month. So in 2016, the Sep. report was filed 9/20, and covered expenditures made in August.
The Oct. report was filed 10/20, reporting expenditures made in September. But after the October monthly report, the schedule changes. 12 days before the election, campaigns file a Pre-Election Report, covering expenditures up to 20 days before the election.
In 2016, the Pre-election Report was filed on October 27, covering expenditures made only through Oct. 19. The payment to Daniels was made on Oct. 27. So the payment would not have been reported on the Pre-election report.
The next report is the Post-Election Report. This covers expenditures made from 20 days before the election until 20 days after the election, and is filed 10 days after that. So this was the 1st report that would have included any expenditure to Cohen for paying Daniels.
In 2016, the Post-Election Report was required to be filed on December 8, one month after the election. So the prosecution’s theory, that Trump wanted to hide the expenditure until after the election, makes no sense at all.
Even if we assume, incorrectly, that it was a campaign expenditure, it wouldn’t have been reported until 30 days after the election. But again, none of this got to the jury, either through testimony or the judge’s instructions.
Merchan was rather obviously biased here, but I’ll give him the benefit of a doubt and say he was just thoroughly ignorant of campaign finance law, and had no interest in boning up on it to properly instruct the jury.
“The prosecution’s theory, that Trump wanted to hide the expenditure until after the election, makes no sense at all.”
That’s not the prosecution’s theory. Trump wanted to keep his encounter with Stormy Daniels secret until after the election, after which it didn’t matter. Trump wanted to keep the payment secret indefinitely. All of the business records that Trump falsified in order to hide the payment were created after the election.
keeping the affair secret is not a violation of federal election law.
The manner in which it was kept secret was.
Merchan was rather obviously biased here
It's not the judge's job to make the case for the defense. If this was the defense's theory, they should've established it at trial. The fact that they didn't makes me think it's BS in one way or another.
The most annoying part of the Trump cult is not that they lie about the facts — that's baked in — but that they keep saying "Nobody knows" something that in fact everyone knows.
He falsified the record by recording reimbursements to Cohen for various expenditures Cohen made on behalf of Trump's campaign as if they were regular payments for ongoing legal services performed each month, in order to cover up what he was reimbursing Cohen for.
It's going to be a long, hot Summer.
Is it possible for SCOTUS to step in immediately and reverse this?
If he's sent to jail 4 days before the GOP convention, Milwaukee will be burnt flat. People have had enough.
You are confusing Republicans with Democrats.
No, I'm thinking the dynamics of the 1986 UMass World Series Riot writ large. Milwaukee itself is a blue pimple in a red state. So the convention opens with Trump in prison and the locals bragging about it -- it will be as incendiary as when the kids from NY bragged about Buckner botching the routine play.
Billy Buck was one of the best Ath-uh-letes to play MLB (was a 5 Star College Foo-bawl prospect at Receiver/DB), had to move from his natural position to the Outfield because that Muscle Head Steve Garvey couldn't play any position other than first (my daughters have better throwing arms than Garvey did) Playing Outfield 1975 was where he had an open displaced Tri-Malleolar Fracture that they still don't have a great treatment for, Dodgers traded him to the Cubs, later with the Red Sox, those Classy Beaners released him in 87' and he finished up with the Royals, died a few years ago of the Alzheimers, while that Phony Steve Garvey still lives, and you wonder why I don't believe in Jay-Hay? Billy Buck was even great in that "Curb your Enthusiasm" cameo
Frank
Lots of great “Ath-uh-letes” from other sports have tried to play baseball.
Mostly they didn’t fare so well, partly because at high levels skills don’t translate easily from one sport to another.
I mean, in high school they do, and to some degree in college, but at top professional levels you’re not going to beat the other guy just because you are a little faster or stronger. Not enough. You better be damn good at the fine points of the game, because differences there are the difference between an MLB All-Star and a guy who hits .202 in Double-A.
The Bills signed Olympic Gold wrestler Gable Steveson to a undrafted FA deal.
Never played football. The guy is a true monster; the Bills list him at 5' 11 and 266. So he is basically a sphere.
He is freakishly athletic. Seen him doing backflips after major victories.
Stephen Neal also won 2 NCAA championships (Cal- Bakersfield) and signed an undrafted FA after never playing college football and won 3 Super Bowl rings with the Patriots. Fun.
Sorry.
At worst, there will be a committee created to consider the possibility of evaluating the effectiveness of a hearing to discuss how to strongly word a letter politely asking the fascists to stop being fascists 'just a little bit'.
The republicans have abandoned the freedom living citizens.
Oh, yeah, and the freedom loving ones too.
You predicted similar events when he was charged, indicted, and convicted. My dog has better pattern recognition.
True -- I'm truly surprised that the middle has held so far.
No. This has been yet another episode of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.
There's the good stuff. Straight to the veins.
Hey, only the best ! As a former .....
HaHa!
Still waiting for what combat zone you served in Fuck-face
I’m predicting a “False Flag” operation by the DemoKKKrats, when Braggs or Merchans cars blow up the assassins won’t be “MAGA”
Frank
I have a similar fear.
'The right will do violence. They should do violence. But if there is violence, it's not the right.'
At some point, the middle shall cease to hold...
Yeah you do keep posting about the coming Civil War 2. And you invariably say it'll come from the right being forced to do violence. Because of gas regulations, or trans stuff, or schools, or to defend Trump, or white men being oppressed, or women being evil, or guns laws, or whatever pisses you off today.
So shut up about false flags.
Are you a frigging Mongoloid? I said it'll be BLM, One of the Ham-Ass groups, or some "MAGA" supporter who mysteriously dies from Vince Foster's Syndrome and turns out to be a Tranny. MAGA supporters aren't violent. Yet.
Frank
You forgot to switch accounts before commenting. Useful to know that you and Ed are the same person.
Wrong again you stupid Polack.
Ed thinks he knows everything (no offense Ed) Drackman knows he knows everything.
Ed is dour, Drackman is always having fun.
Try again.
Ah, so it's not just the two accounts, but at least three. How many other names do you comment under?
I took a quick look.
Drackman is does not seem to be having any fun today.
Bumble:
"stupid Polack"
"Nips"
"dumb Mick"
"Jamaican voodoo judge" (referring to an African-American federal judge)
"dipshit", "douchebag"' "fuckwit"
(addressing practitioners)
Remind us again Bumble; which Master Race are you of?
He’s not a Doctor who has to let everyone know he’s claiming to be a doctor, I’m an actual MD(mentally deranged) doctor who only brings it up when it’s pertinent (like how dumbasses get BMI and %Body Fat confused, BMI is merely your weight in Kg divided by your height in meters(squared), by coincidence many people’s BMI is close to their %Body Fat, but one has nothing to do with the other, and don’t even get me started with “Disc Bulges” or “Fibromyalgia” (first is a normal anatomic finding nearly everyone has, second is a fictitious condition doctors invented to let other doctors know to avoid these patients)
Frank
Dear Frank: Do you think anyone who follows the VC believes you're a doctor? Everything you've ever written here leads to the inescapable conclusion that you've been cleaning the kennels for your local veterinarian since you dropped out of high school. Try writing like an educated adult; maybe then people will stop thinking of you as an illiterate, vulgar child.
I don’t doubt Frank’s a doctor. He’s an imbecile. So what? Most doctors aren’t imbeciles, but many are. If you don’t know any, you don’t know enough doctors.
What state are you licensed in? Under what name?
It's "the center," you semi-literate fool. Your predictions suck, but you could at least get your literary references correct even once.
I think most people, if they didn't know this had anything to do with trump, would agree that not putting 'PAYING OFF MY HOOKER' on an invoice to a lawyer for some sex that happened decades ago is hardly Crime of the Century material.
Certainly its not a bigger crime than lying under oath about banging your intern in the White House and we actually have ironclad proof of that. But have decided that it was no big deal. And this was back in the 90s.
Well diddums, live by the sleaze fall by the sleaze.
'And this was back in the 90s.'
Back when the Republicans were the Party of Law And Order, Family Values and sheer unadulterated Patriotism.
The tit for tat keep getting worse. We’re already at a state of impeachment overuse for political hits; Trump’s are old news already.
Since the entire mechanism of government investigation can be turned against political opponents, in spite of the best efforts of Founding Father designs to prevent rogue kings, expect still more, and worse.
I’ve lamented this state for The People over and over. But the power brokers don’t care. It’s all a game. We win, they win, back and forth. These are congenital liars.
To quote Dr. Chandler about Hal. “He was told to lie. By people who find it very easy to lie.”
I don’t think he didn’t do any of this. I do know he’s been pursued because he is a political opponent and is still a threat.
In 5 or 20 years, “I’m shocked! Shocked! The Republicans are doing this to us!”
‘Since the entire mechanism of government investigation can be turned against political opponents,’
Someone mentioned Bill Clinton?
'In 5 or 20 years, “I’m shocked! Shocked! The Republicans are doing this to us!”'
'You should have just let them do what they want regardless of the law, that would have stopped them from doing what they want regardless of the law!"
Ah you have been paying attention to me. I have pointed out many times Bill Clinton, and how the Republicans went after him. All the stuff they complain about now, back then they relished.
Special prosecutors, functionally general warrants to go on fishing expiditions. Process crimes to twist arms unending. Catching someone in a lie to officials a dozen links away from what they set out to investigate.
Fine then. Terrible now!
Hence my reference to Casablanca several posts up! Even the time distance was based on this interval since Clinton! You have been reading!
Republicans, you brought this on yourselves.
Democrats, what might the next few decades wright? I guess, sigh, we're gonna find out.
All the stuff they complain about now, back then they relished.
They still relish it. Hillary and Hunter. Mayorkas. It's a playbook they very much enjoy, and now they think it's being used against them and they're pissed!
It really isn't, of course. No Democrats, least of all Biden, have been championing these prosecutions. Nobody's chanting "lock him up," in fact quite the opposite. The left-leaning commentariat is in general agreement that the prosecution shouldn't even ask for jail time.
The fact is, the left has never liked the criminal justice system. We're just sort of numb to it. It's great, though, if conservatives are finally figuring out how cruel, indifferent, and unfair it can be.
Whatever it'll be, it's still the bloody Republicans who are the actual problem.
The Republicans have to flush the commies and Marxists from DC before they have any chance of saying that.
The Republicans currently in DC, however, have no intent as many of them are these same commies and Marxists.
These "lawyers and judges and the rest of that tribe" going after Trump have made such a degenerate show of the 'legal' system this time, but they'll keep trying and they will cause more trouble and they will pay the price and reap the whirlwind of fate and other.
Odds are there will be no sentencing in July for this latest debacle of unhinged legal machinations which should remind everyone of Brazil's goings on of late.
People waited peacefully for some sort of reason to appear in NYC, but no. It never surfaced once in those decisions made by the "court of law" Reason is absent and a crime in New York City, America's joke city.
Sleep lightly and wait for what comes next, whatever that may be. One never knows with this Biden Criminal Organization, BCO, pronounced - Beau Co, whose emplacement was due to fraud and not ever with 81 million legitimate votes representing 81 million people who actually voted. I welcome old Joe Biden to stop by, in person, so we can discuss life, the universe, and everything. I'm in the Book.
Sleep lightly and wait for what comes next
Hey, buddy, is this what comes next?
https://reason.com/volokh/2024/05/30/thursday-open-thread-193/?comments=true#comment-10584135
"Decisions, Tick
Clarity Increases
Dangers Accepted
Doubts Resolved
Focus Refined
Variables Defined
Values Assigned
Targets Acquired
Actions Dispatched
Results Gathered
Decisions, Tock"
"Sleep lightly and wait for what comes next, "
What comes next is even more liberal-libertarian mainstream progress, achieved against the wishes of (and shoved down the whining throats of) our vestigial right-wing bigots and superstitious hayseeds.
Soon enough, right-wing culture war casualties will be relegated to begging their betters for leniency and a few favors. Which may or may not be granted.
I encourage that future. However, one should not be using politics of “git ‘im!”, though, the plague of humanity, most of Earth currently, and almost all human history, where the government is turned against political enemies so we can have power instead.
The arc of American progress favors inclusiveness, transparency, reason, fairness, freedom, science, modernity, diminution of unearned privilege, effort, education, skill, sensible risk-taking, and the reality-based world.
Those are the goals I favor.
Some things -- unearned privilege, bigotry, superstition, dogma, backwardness -- and the people who prefer those things are disadvantaged by American progress. That's a very small price.
One plus: Biden's DoJ thinks Trump is legally competent to stand trial while Biden's DoJ ALSO thinks Biden is NOT legally competent to stand trial.
Cannot imagine why you'd want to elect somebody not mentally competent to stand trial for their own crimes, which Biden unabashedly committed in the classified documents cvase, bare minimum.
I’m not sure “our guy definitely know exactly what he was doing when he committed all those crimes!” is the rousing case for Trump that you think.
And “vote for the guy too addled with dementia to carry about the nuclear football” is?
I agree with you that “our guy is too old to understand the crimes he committed!” also would not be a very compelling pitch, though I don’t know that very many Democrats are making it.
Some conservatives will happily mention it.
Biden knew what he was doing when he stole those classified documents and stashed them in the trunk of his son's car. He took them when he was Vice President to Obama, and some much earlier as a Senator. He was never too bright, but he wasn't yet senile, and the laws about classified documents are simple enough that a Sergeant can explain them to the stupidest Army recruits.
The issue is not that he's not guilty by reason of mental defect, but that he has become unable to assist in his own defense. In our legal system, that means he cannot be tried. "Unable to assist in ones own defense" is a pretty high bar. Murderers with an IQ of 60 have been deemed fit for trial. Biden can be pumped up with drugs and give a reasonably good scripted TV appearance, but in a long non-scripted interview about the stolen documents, it became quite clear to the interviewer that Biden is no longer fit for trial.
By "Biden's DOJ" you mean some Republican asshole from the Federalist Society?
It's more that Biden didn't do any crimes, which might seem like mental incompetence to Trump voters, I suppose.
Hur specifically said he did.
Hur said Biden hadn't done any crimes.
He said it, but it was just speculation from a partisan, not a legal finding.
It was for people like you to lap up.
So you could use it to deflect from Trump being a convicted felon.
"He said it, but it was just speculation from a partisan, not a legal finding."
It was a report issued by the Biden DOJ. Biden is responsible for its accuracy.
Guess Biden has a sense of humour.
So, Biden's DoJ lied?
I bet it makes them more believable in other matters.
Trump supporter claiming someone lied and that lie makes them less believeable.
Biden supporter mentioning somebody lying.
That's not how it works, but also it's not what the report says.
For your weekend entertainment compliments of Powerline:
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2024/06/the-week-in-pictures-guilt-free-edition.php
I, and I hope others, are sick of the amount of money spent on campaigns. Endless commercials assault the public. I thought the deal was it is ok to collect and spend all this money but be transparent, so the public knows where it comes from and how it is spent. Now the argument is that we don't need to know all. Fine then change the legislation and say that campaign money spent to pay off mistresses does not need to be reported. Until then follow the law.
I’m looking forward for DA Bragg prosecuting Hillary Clinton and her cronies for the Steele Dossier. After all, her campaign would have altered records as part of its payment scheme as a means of concealing their efforts through their law firm cutout Perkins Coie.
There’s even evidence of an actual FECA violation they can put before a jury.
I’m sure in the interest of fairness, DA Bragg will indict her. It’ll happen any day now…
I'm sure your take on what the law is doesn't dictate what Bragg should do.
Didn't you predict this case would be dismissed because business records were not actually business records?
Maybe your take on the law doesn't play well outside your head.
Didn’t you predict this case would be dismissed because business records were not actually business records?
I don't recall ever saying this.
I’m sure your take on what the law is doesn’t dictate what Bragg should do... Maybe your take on the law doesn’t play well outside your head.
Any day in which Sarcastr0 doesn't understand sarcasm is definitely a good day.
Fair enough, I may very well be mixing you up with someone else.
But regardless, ginning up a double standard based on your personal take on the facts and law (and I guess applying it to NY law?) is just light solopsism.
Either Trump is uniquely dangerous and requires extraordinary departures, or he's treated just like everyone else.
I suggest you pick one and stick with it.
No departures. Trump did actual crimes. No exceptions were made, and none should be. No one is above the law.
As for the Hillary thing, I’m not up on it but it is also very clear neither are you.
You have a ton of unearned confidence about both law and facts you don’t actually know much about, from what you post here.
That wasn't what you were arguing just a couple of months ago when it came to Trump's due process rights in his DC trial.
I prefer that version of Sarcastr0. At least he's more honest about different standards.
I was arguing against Trump getting due process?
That I am sure is a lie.
Of course you wouldn't characterize it as such. Because you don't think Trump was due much process.
Tell me again on your thoughts on an imperative of bringing Trump to trial before November.
Of course you wouldn’t characterize it as such. Because you don’t think Trump was due much process.
Are you going to argue that Trump’s team did not have time to mount a proper defense? Or that any actual procedures or norms were broken in the timing here?
It looks to me like you’re taking my general postulate that an exigency that renders a criminal process a nullity is something said process may take into account and saying I applied that only to Trump.
Seems a lot better than 'due process requires that Trump is immune from prosecution if he's running for office' which is what you seem to be arguing.
So yeah, you’re full of shit on a number of levels here. What I said, what process Trump got, what criminal due process requires, and even who is responsible for the timing here (hint: the Trump’s team’s motions)
“ It looks to me like you’re taking my general postulate that an exigency that renders a criminal process a nullity is something said process may take into account and saying I applied that only to Trump.”
Who else does it apply to?
Are you going to argue that Trump’s team did not have time to mount a proper defense? Or that any actual procedures or norms were broken in the timing here?
Yes, and yes. Here's one example (just one, but there are others):
The DC Circuit panel's treatment of Trump's immunity appeal broke norms and deprived Trump of adequate time to prepare for the panel's briefing. The panel has discretion to expedite cases, yes, but that discretion is not absolute and it can be abused. In my view, the panel did so in Trump's appeal. The briefing schedule was extraordinarily and needlessly short, and it was highly detrimental to Trump's ability to argue on a novel question of law. (Three days for a reply brief? Over New Years? YGBSM)
When the DC panel issued its opinion it then effectively deprived Trump his right to an en banc appeal. And as a parting gift the panel then deprived Trump of the time to file a thorough and thoughtful cert petition by forcing him to go to SCOTUS immediately.
The panel's treatment of the case was so egregious and outrageous that Roberts gave them a backhanded slap when SCOTUS accepted cert, and he continued to admonish the panel for how they treated the appeal.
Seems a lot better than ‘due process requires that Trump is immune from prosecution if he’s running for office’ which is what you seem to be arguing.
Putting Trump on trial while running for election is not improper, and I have never argued that.
Sandbagging a defendant's right to appeal, denying them time to prepare an adequate defense, trying to conduct hearings while the defendant's counsel is engaged in an honest-to-god trial in another state all to achieve a political objective of a election-day deadline is absolutely improper.
That's wrong for the government to do for any defendant, much less Trump.
Sarcastr0 5 hours ago
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No departures. Trump did actual crimes. No exceptions were made, and none should be. No one is above the law.
So did Hillary -
You can insist Hillary did crimes, but Trump's own DoJ disagrees.
Same with any alleged crimes committed by Trump, DOJ declined to prosecute anything trump did.
The NY required gross misinterpretation of Fed election law and NY state election law to obtain conviction.
So, Biden's DOJ isn't out to get Trump? Could have told you that.
Trump is indeed not guilty of any crimes the DoJ has declined to prosecute him for.
That does not mean that he didn't cover up some crimes that the DoJ has declined to prosecute him for.
The NY required gross misinterpretation of Fed election law
I mean, even with your newfound expertise in federal election law, that's not required for the crimes Trump's been convicted of.
Sarcastr0 22 hours ago
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Mute User
"The NY required gross misinterpretation of Fed election law
I mean, even with your newfound expertise in federal election law, that’s not required for the crimes Trump’s been convicted of."
As compared to your complete ignorance of federal election law. Can you point to a single credible source that explains why it was a violation of federal election law.
Well, the full jury instructions are available to read. And you can see exactly what the jury was instructed on in terms of the other issues (including FECA).
So how about you read the jury instructions, and get back to us with the specific errors?
We can wait.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2024/06/in-memory-of-justice/?utm_source=recirc-desktop&utm_medium=homepage&utm_campaign=header&utm_content=popular&utm_term=first
Good explanation of the distortions in federal and state election law required by Bragg and Mechan to achieve the guilty verdict.
A non existent federal election crime
A misdeamnor at best for NY state election crime.
Of course – taking time to actually understand the applicable statute is not your intent.
page 48 mispresentation of applicable federal and state tax law.
Multiple instances of mispresentation of federal election law. Tell us again what the limit on an individual contributing to his own campaign.
Vagueness of the NY election law -
Um, p. 48 of the jury instructions isn't related to FECA. That's a motive instruction.
So, again, the instructions list NYEL, FECA, and the tax issues are there.
Next, the problem isn't Trump donating to his own campaign. But that's not what happened, is it? I know, facts are difficult.
I will reiterate, you can't discuss the more complex legal issues until you start to learn the basic stuff.
That National Review article makes no specific arguments that the law was incorrectly applied to Trump. It's just some nitpicking of the decisions of the judge and prosecutor.
I actually agree with the overall gist of the article. The criminal justice system has decayed over the last century to the point where it's ripe for political abuse. I have some different, or additional, complaints though, starting with the War on Drugs. That's an example of conservatives turning to criminal law as the solution to all their policy desires. Abortion is the more recent one. Then there's the proliferation of vague, broad crimes that lend themselves perfectly to selective enforcement. Next is the abuse of plea bargains and pretrial diversion to create an effective criminal justice system outside of due process protections. In other words, most of the trouble with the criminal justice system these days ‐‐ including broad, vague laws like the one that got Trump -- are a result of decades of Tough On Crime activism from Republicans. Like the National Review, I hope this is a wake-up call for you guys.
I’m sure your take on what the law is doesn’t dictate what Bragg should do.
Because he has no honor?
I said it should be dismissed because there was no evidence that Trump ever saw the “fraudulent” business record, or directed it be falsified.
And at the time the business record was made was in the White House and had given up control to his sons.
The testimony was after they received Cohen’s invoice the check was prepared and sent to Trump to sign in the Whitehouse. He didn’t see the invoice the entry was coded from, and just signed the check to Cohen. The same invoice that included the 50k Cohen stole so it can’t be claimed Trump knew all the details.
But no matter, neither the trial or my take on it is going to change any minds, or keep Trump out of his return to the Whitehouse.
Wow, all the legal geniuses Trump could have had on his Defence team, right here in this comment section.
The checks themselves were 11 of the counts. What are you even talking about.
e for you is a Violation of Tax Laws. Under New York State and New York City law, it is unlawful to knowingly supply or submit materially false or fraudulent information in connection with any tax return. Likewise, under federal law, it is unlawful for a person to willfully make any tax return, statement, or other document that is fraudulent or false as to any material matter, or that the person does not believe to be true and correct as to every material matter. Under these federal, state, and local laws, such conduct is unlawful even if it does not result in underpayment of taxes.
The only action cited in the jury instructions for violation of federal or state tax law was the preparation of the Form 1099-Misc. The organization is required to file a 1099 for all payments made to Cohen. How is it a crime to comply with federal and state law.
That isn't the only action cited in the jury instructions related to alleged tax law violations. Indeed, the reference to 1099-MISC forms wasn't even associated with the tax law violation theory. It was associated with the falsifying other business records (as the unlawful means under § 17-152) theory.
As related to the tax law violation theory, the jury instructions refer to providing false information in connection with tax returns. The allegation is that Mr. Cohen provided false information on his tax return when he reported the grossed-up amount as income rather than as repayment. As alleged, instead of receiving $180,000 in reimbursement, he received a grossed-up $360,000 (plus other income) and treated it as taxable income so that he'd net roughly $180,000 and be made roughly whole.
I believe that matter was already settled, and the Clinton campaign paid a fined. What your suggesting would then be double jeopardy. Too bad the Trump campaign did have the foresight to get the matter cleared when he controlled the DOJ.
That was a civil penalty. Double jeopardy doesn’t apply.
FEC handles civil enforcement, DOJ handles criminal enforcement.
Love it when cranks are correct about something.
Sir, I prefer the term "differently-abled monomaniac crackpot."
One joke
You aren't even going to ask what I'm monomaniac about?
Look up the dual sovereignty doctrine before you post, you twit.
trump never really controlled DOJ -
I'm looking forward to the invention of a time machine back to the 1930s, when uppity savages would be hung from trees.
Lol what a fucking freak.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/susan-collins-criticizes-new-york-s-prosecution-of-trump/ar-BB1npmMk
‘After all, her campaign would have altered records’
The usual Trumpist Standards Of Evidence apply. It isn't even as if Trump didn't try to sic his DOJ on her.
OK. It was unconstitutional.
Now what?
The voters “deal with it” at the ballot box?
And if he wins, he’ll pick up that checkered flag and waive Putins tanks through to the winning circle west of Poland.
If the future of Europe wasn’t looking so scary, this would all be a joke. And such piss and fury, which may backfire, so senators’ net worths can continue to skyrocket at multiples of their annual salaries.
If Trump wins in November, we can thank the unchecked emotions of angry Democrats who don't understand how the world works.
'The voters “deal with it” at the ballot box?'
He's never yet won the majority of votes, and won't have to win them to win again, so that seems problematic.
The democrats are the only ones 'dealing with' stuff at the ballot box.
Given the trouble Putin is having subduing Ukraine I’m puzzled at the idea that he’s interested in Moldova let alone Europe. And I think he’s at least sane enough not to resort to using his nuclear arsenal. But let’s say he does invade Poland, and POTUS Trump takes no action. Do we think that the remaining NATO members have no agency and wouldn’t react on their own?
Funny how this trial got scheduled so quickly (once Erection year got here) but KSM's Death Penalty trial still is delayed (he's only been in Custody for 21 years, Still at Guantanamo, guess Barry Hussein forgot about him) Who here seriously thinks DA Potato Head, I mean Bragg hasn't committed any felonies, the kind that any competent investigator could uncover? More will be revealed.
Frank
I agree, Democrats have their priorities mixed up.
But with Joe "Vegetable" Biden in the White House they don't have many other options, do they?
In what reality was Kennedy a 'liberal icon'? He twice authored decisions giving gays a modicum of equal protection. Anything other than that?
He kept abortion going in Planned Parenthood. He was probably singularly responsible for every legal advance in the alphabet soup sexual revolution in the past 40 years.
Isn’t that enough?
You prefer right-wing bigotry against gays, transgender people, lesbians, drag queens, etc.?
Then this is the blog for you! So does Mr. Volokh!
Telling gays that they don't have a right to ejaculate HIV infected semen into another man while requiring that we pay for their PrEP drugs is not bigotry.
Bringing back the classics lol
Just another bigoted, backward, downscale, disaffected day at the white, male Volokh Conspiracy -- now with less UCLA!
“Liberal icon”means liberals like him overall. They don’t.
Yeah, liberals are a petty, vindictive lot, aren't they? Just look at how they regard RBG now.
Not liking people for poor decision making while exercising immense political power is neither petty nor vindictive.
vindictive
adjective
vin·dic·tive vin-ˈdik-tiv
1 a: disposed to seek revenge : vengeful
b: intended for or involving revenge
2: intended to cause anguish or hurt : spiteful
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/vindictive
petty
adjective
pet·ty ˈpe-tē
pettier; pettiest
1: having secondary rank or importance : minor, subordinate
2: having little or no importance or significance
3: marked by or reflective of narrow interests and sympathies
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/petty
Nah, I got it right.
Petty and vindictive accurately describes them.
So the definitions you just quoted clearly apply to right-wing politics. If liberals are “petty and vindictive” for having less than warm feelings to some Justices…HTF would you describe conservatives?
Whoa! Hold on there, buddy! I thought we were talking about liberals!
There's always this weird tendency in conservatives to insist that liberals should like people they never really liked at all, or have good reason to dislike now.
Most of all, the conservatives themselves. "I have a free speech right to be taken seriously!" Lol
The alleged Steve Calabresi has allegedly written an alleged article where he allegedly claimed that the alleged Donald Trump was allegedly convicted of alleged acts under an alleged law which allegedly violated the alleged United States constitution.
Allegedly.
I agree that there's probably no underlying crime here. But it's unclear that the New York statute requires that there actually be an underlying crime here.
You missed the part of NY statutes that says if Trump did it it's a crime.
A statute no doubt passed to confound the 5th Avenooers principle that if Trump does it, it isn't a crime.
Now playing at a theater near you Star Chamber:
To Falsely Go Where No Court Has Gone Before.
Why do we even try anymore?
Do whatever you want. You're getting your asses kicked in the culture war, and progress shoved down your throats by better Americans, no matter what.
The trial was pretty straightforward. I don't think you're going to get much traction with this kangaroo talking point.
It didn't even really work with the Colorado ballot trial, and that one was at least unusual. This one was about as by-the-book as you can get.
So we all knew that some version of this insane post was coming.
What's important to understand here is how unprofessional, unlawyerly, unethical Calabresi's post is. "This legal theory is unconstitutional" does not, for an ethical lawyer, mean "The Supreme Court has found this entirely constitutional, but I wish they had held differently and think that someday they will."
Ranting that SCOTUS needs to take this up immediately without actually explaining what jurisdiction SCOTUS has to hear an appeal from a state trial court conviction is kinda bad, too.
Also, Stormy Daniels did not testify in graphic detail, and it was entirely relevant because Trump was stupidly forcing his lawyers to dispute what the payments in question were for.
Finally, whatever the appropriate legal rule, I am quite confident that it's not "New York isn't allowed to do this because it's a liberal jurisdiction."
Jack Marshall explained what was wrong wioth the verdict.
https://ethicsalarms.com/2024/05/31/regarding-that-verdict-in-manhattan/
***START QUOTE***
I’ve been getting a lot of inquiries about the verdict in the falsely dubbed “hush-money trial” that came down with unseemly speed yesterday. As with other high profile trials where I have not been on the jury or in the courtroom, I don’t have a legitimate basis for much ethical analysis of the trial itself, including the competence of the attorneys or the judge. The Kyle Rittenhouse prosecution was an exception, because of the blatant prosecutorial misconduct in that case that was evident from direct quotes (and the defense’s ethics were dodgy as well).
The position that it was unethical to bring this case to trial as a form of what has been dubbed “lawfare” by critics is already locked in for me, and that is the most important feature of the case. As to the substance of the charges, the absurd number of counts in the indictment were obvious over-charging, an unethical prosecution trick but one that isn’t ever punished. The fact that Michael Cohen was the “star” witness against Trump should have, in my view, made the prosecution’s case insufficient to sustain a conviction on its face. Maybe others in historically significant criminal trials have been convicted “beyond a reasonable doubt” based on the testimony of such a throbbing habitual liar—the Lincoln assassination conspirators and Sir Thomas More come to mind—-but the former was a pro forma military tribunal affair where the defendants’ rights were severely restricted and there was never any chance that they would not be convicted, and the latter took place in England under the direction of a vengeful despot.
The fact that the verdict came down so quickly in what was a very strange and complicated case—with judge’s instructions to the jury that would take me a couple of days to read and understand—strongly suggests a jury that had made up its mind already. I believe that it was wrong not to sequester the jury: I did see a lot of the broadcast media coverage, and it was generally disgusting. The ugly cheerleading for a conviction on all the channels except Fox News, which sounded like an arm of the defense team, couldn’t help but bias the jury.
Oh—those jury instructions are here. Good luck.
Last night, one of Trump’s attorneys said that the former President was “very involved” in choosing the jury. Well, Trump’s an idiot, and this time, far from the first, his hubris bit him in the…face. Putting two lawyers on the jury was insane. I’d estimate that in the nation as a whole, at least 75% of all lawyers detest Trump—heck, his own lawyers hate him—and in Manhattan, where Trump is even more spectacularly unpopular, I’d guess it’s closer to 90%. Lawyers on juries have undue influence: I know, because I’ve been a lawyer on a jury. Sure, one effective, fair, articulate lawyer who could break down the case for laymen might have been able to explain to jurors why the case was political and the prosecution’s theory was weak, but that was reckless gamble to bet on. After my experience with my ethics lawyers professional association and their unconscionable analysis of the recent Alito flag “scandal” as well as my conversations with my sister, I no longer have sufficient faith in most lawyers’ abilities or inclinations to avoid bias guiding their judgment in all matters related to Trump. I have a bit more faith in the analysis offered by legal experts like Prof. Turley and Andrew McCarthy, neither of whom are Trump admirers and who have shown the ability to be independent in their assessments of partisan-poisoned issues in the past.
There is no question in my mind, however, that the guilty verdict is a disaster on many levels, no matter what happens going forward. The case was election interference and designed to be. Even if it ends up having exactly the opposite effect the Democrat totalitarians who engineered the “lawfare” strategy to rescue Joe Biden and themselves seek, the damage to the nation, the democracy, the legal system and the public trust is incalculable. I hope it can be repaired or at least mitigated, but I sure don’t know how.
***END QUOTE***
Literally *nobody's* going to read that.
Jack Marshall is a world-renowned legal ethicist.
Yopu might have learned something.
This Jack Marshallis a "world-renowned legal ethicist?"
Or do you have someone else in mind? Because this guy just looks like a BS artist who managed to get all the way to being an adjunct professor at American University's law school.
I keep learning the new and amazing ways you come up with to deify Trump, a bit jaded, tbh.
Jack Marshall is a self-proclaimed legal ethicist who is a joke who doesn't even know what the word "ethics" means. And I don't mean that in the figurative sense of criticizing someone's abilities, like "Angel Hernandez doesn't know what the strike zone is." I mean it literally. He thinks it means, "Anything I disapprove of."
What I learned is that Jack Marshall is a slow reader. I was impressed with how clear the jury instructions were. It took me maybe half an hour to read through the instructions, and then another half hour or less to go back and figure out what the prosecution had to prove about intent.
Marshall claims that Cohen was the prosecution’s “star” witness, but Cohen was also an accomplice. If Marshall had take the couple of days it would take him to read and understand the jury instructions, he would have known that New York law says a jury cannot convict solely on the testimony of an accomplice.
Why the fuck would anyone ask Jack Marshall about anything that requires knowledge or expertise? But anyway, to summarize his response:
"I wasn't in the courtroom and don't know the facts or law, but I don't like it because I had already decided in advance that I wasn't going to like it. Even though I didn't listen to the testimony I know it wasn't credible and that the case was too complicated so a quick verdict proves that the trial was bad."
At least he didn’t bring up that dumb “unanimity” argument.
If he wants this to be legally actionable, he's gotta go back to his hilarious standing argument.
Because this wasn't raised by the defense in the court below so he needs additional gymnastics to make it actionable.
What was dumb about the unanimity argument?
It’s not dumb in the abstract as a broad legal principle. But it’s dumb in the sense that no one on the right is actually advocating for a broad legal principle and are clearly taking this position in this one instance because Donald Trump is a special boy who gets special rules.
This Texas lawyer’s thread on the issue is illuminating:
https://x.com/dougthelawyer/status/1796341406098772229?s=46&t=swfuX8A13L7H9PAYSakPtA
As I understand it, if a man is prosecuting for murdering Tom, Dick, and Harry, he can be convicted of murdering Tom if a jury unanimously concludes that, even if the jury deadlocks or outright acquits with respect to Dick and Harry.
But if only 11 out of 12 convict for Tom, 11 out of 12 convict for Dick, and 11 out of 12 convict for Harry, then no murder conviction arises with respect to any victim.
That's true because murdering Tom, Dick and Harry are each a separate crime.
But in this case, the object crime is NY 17-152 which proscribes a conspiracy to (my emphasis) “promote or prevent the election of any person to a public office by unlawful means.” Under Schad v. Arizona (plurality) unanimity is not required for the means by which a crime was committed. So, it is likely the jury did not have to be unanimous in whether it was FECA, tax law or falsification of other business records that were the unlawful means.
Since there was nothing unlawful about the payment to Stormy Daniels...
...but the effort to cover it up was.
The act being covered up has to ne unlawful, which it was not.
How can that being lawful make an unlawful act lawful?
The act being covered up has to ne unlawful
What? Jeez you guys sure know how to turn your brains off in service of your orange overlord.
What if he covered it up by killing Stormy Daniels? Dumb, dumb dumb dumb. Dumb!
What if he covered it up by killing Stormy Daniels? Dumb, dumb dumb dumb. Dumb!
Murder is an offense, you twit.
The thing is, under the law in question, for falsification of business records to be a felony, it has to be done for the purpose of covering up, or aiding in the commission of, a crime. Since paying off Stormy Daniels violated no law, it can not be a crime, and thus the falsification of business records in this case would not have been a felony.
Since paying off Stormy Daniels violated no law, it can not be a crime, and thus the falsification of business records in this case would not have been a felony.
You're right. That's not the crime Trump was covering up.
Why do You People™ keep saying this, when Michael Cohen went to prison for it?
"Why do You People™ keep saying this, when Michael Cohen went to prison for it?"
Michael Cohen being a criminal does not make Trump a criminal, much as you wish it to be so.
damikesc -
"Michael Cohen being a criminal does not make Trump a criminal, much as you wish it to be so."
Of course it doesn't. But, as relevant here, the crime which was intended to be committed or covered up doesn't need to be the defendant's - i.e., President Trump's - crime.
And even that doesn't really matter because of the way the prosecution ultimately argued the case. The other crime, as alleged, was a violation of NY Election Law § 17-152 and the alleged FECA violation was the unlawful means used by the alleged conspiracy. Under that theory I don't think President Trump would have needed to commit the FECA violation himself - just intend that it be committed.
Per the OP, it could unlwafully exceed a campaign contribution limit (which Calabresi argues should be unconsittutional). Additionally even if the payment wasn’t a campaign contribution, there is also violations of tax law and falsifying other business records the jury could (without unanimity) find as the “unlawful means.”
Michael Cohen went to prison for it!
What do you think that has to do with the circumstances of this case?
No, the better comparison would be if the murder charge for Tom includes an element of premeditation. They have to be unanimous that the crime was premeditated, but not that it was premeditated on Tuesday versus Wednesday.
Also, one way to tell that conservatives are full of shit with “law and order” stuff is their wish for irregular procedure to help Trump. “SCOTUS save him now” is not (supposed to be) a thing! Any other person who is stuck on the wrong end of a potentially dubious criminal charge has to wait years to get relief, if they ever get it. Often they have to wait in prison! But that’s the procedure.
You should sue whatever law school gave you a law degree, remember the Duke Lacrosse case and what happened to that DA? Although I have a feeling Potato Head Bragg’s Left Main Stenosis will make Mrs Potato Head a Widow sooner rather than later
Frank
Suing the law school because I understand appellate procedure is not a great case!
Neither was this one, I get you before a jury in Bullit County KY I could convict you of crimes they haven’t even thought of yet
Okay. Good luck with that. Seems you’d have some venue problems at the very least!
Amazing what a little Flunitrazepam can do for ones venue, and there are very few states that don’t have a Bullit County
Frank
You know full well that when conservatives talk about "law and order," we're talking about violent crimes, that you know, actually have a victim. Go fuck yourself, you disgusting savage fairy.
Lol they’re full of shit on that too. Anytime a violent person with a victim is on the team they make excuses for them. Abbott pardoned Daniel Perry even though he’s a pedophilic murderer.
oohhh guess it takes a pedio to know a pedio
Not really. You can just read his texts that were introduced into evidence.
Yes, that Hunter Biden is a sick fuck, good thing for him Senator Menendez is computer illiterate
Daniel Perry shot the other guy in self defense. It was clear to everyone except for a biased jury and biased DA.
They convicted him solely because the victim had a black girlfriend, which makes him black in their mind.
Conservatives: we're pro white-collar crime!
David, let me ask you a question. Normally, SCOTUS does not review state decisions on state laws. However (you knew that was coming)....suppose a credible argument is advanced that POTUS Trump's due process rights were violated in the prosecution, and subsequent trial.
In a case where one's due process rights are violated by a state, isn't that the appropriate way SCOTUS gets involved. SCOTUS doesn't review the verdict, just the alleged due process violations that happened along the way.
This presupposes a review by NY Appeals Court (that is where this gets appealed to, correct?).
What Due Process rights will the defense argue were violated?
Because Calabresi's argument is there was a First Amendment violation, that is reviewable by SCOTUS.
Yes, the Supreme Court is able to review a claim that a state conviction violates the protections of the U.S. constitution, which (to the extent it’s comprehensible) would encompass Prof. Calabresi’s argument that Trump’s conduct was protected by the first amendment. But they do that by reviewing a final decision from the state appellate process, which doesn’t even start until after sentencing.
Yep. 28 USC 1257 is key here (and Calabresi must know about it but doesn't even address it.
Here's my Twitter thread explaining SCOTUS appellate jurisdiction.
https://x.com/dilanesper/status/1796664112367407368
Ok, that was also a part of the question: the process from here.
Trump has a right to appeal to the New York Supreme Court, Appellate Division. A panel of judges will then issue a decision. If they affirm the convictions, Trump can ask the New York Court of Appeals to review that decision. (Likewise, if they reverse the convictions, the District Attorney can do the same). The Court of Appeals can decide to take the case or not. If they don’t, then Trump can ask the Supreme Court for review, but only on an issue of federal law—for instance, he could argue that his conduct was protected by the first amendment, but not that the court had incorrectly interpreted the elements of New York falsification of records crime. If the Court of Appeals denies review, then Trump can ask for review of the Appellare Division’s decision, but again only on the basis of a federal law issue. (In theory, the District Attorney could do the same if Trump wins, but it’s a little difficult to imagine here how Trump would end up winning on a favorable interpretation of federal law.)
Ok, so a minimum of two more process hops in NY. Thanks for the detailed explainer.
"In a case where one’s due process rights are violated by a state, isn’t that the appropriate way SCOTUS gets involved. SCOTUS doesn’t review the verdict, just the alleged due process violations that happened along the way."
If a criminal conviction offends due process guaranties, and if the federal due process issue has been presented to (not necessarily determined by) the state court at every level, the defendant can petition SCOTUS for a writ of certiorari to review the judgment of the highest court of a State in which a decision could be had.
If review of a state-court judgment is sought, the cert petition must include specification of the stage in the proceedings, both in the court of first instance and in the appellate courts, when the federal questions sought to be reviewed were raised; the method or manner of raising them and the way in which they were passed on by those courts; and pertinent quotations of specific portions of the record or summary thereof, with specific reference to the places in the record where the matter appears (e.g., court opinion, ruling on exception, portion of court's charge and exception thereto, assignment of error), so as to show that the federal question was timely and properly raised and that the Supreme Court has jurisdiction to review the judgment on a writ of certiorari, per Supreme Court Rule 14(a)(g)(i).
"President Donald Trump"
Trump is not the president, not even among unhinged wingnuts who seem to have experienced strokes.
He was, is, and likely will be again. Make peace with it and move on..
Open wider, wingnut. Guys like me will be shoving plenty more progress down your half-educated, bigoted, right-wing throat.
Or don't. Your comfort is a decreasing point of concern among better Americans. Maybe hearing you assholes whimper and whine should be regarded as entertainment.
The Revolting Reverend again with his threats to shove his Stimulus Package down our Collective Throats, and hear our assholes whimper and whine. Be careful Revolting, there’s this thing called a “Gag Reflex” that’s left more than one Shover singing a different tune, a few Octaves higher.
Frank
In the culture war, conservatives are all bark -- yappy little barks -- and no bite.
In case you don't know, it is traditionally proper form to refer to a former President as "President." I'm not endorsing that fact; just reporting it. See current example of "President Carter" on whitehouse.gov.
I know! I refer to all POTUS (past, present) by their title. That is the correct protocol.
People get mad about that; don't.
No, you bigoted dumbass, POTUS (or President of the United States) and President are not interchangeable, particularly in this context.
Get an education. Backwater religious education does not count.
Or move to a can't-keep-up conservative backwater, where your ignorance won't be no noticeable.
No, you incorrectly call them all "POTUS," when in fact there is only one POTUS at a time, and possibly several FPOTUS'.
It's cute though to see you ignorantly claiming that your repeated ignorant mistakes are correct.
It's pathetic (and expected) to see you do it after having been corrected dozens of times, simply because you aren't one to ever admit or correct your mistakes (or lies).
This _XY dumbass believes fairy tales are true and is a right-wing bigot. You can't reason with superstition, belligerent ignorance, or bigotry. It is pointless to try, perhaps even counterproductive. The best course is just to stomp them and their stale, ugly thinking into irrelevance in the glorious American culture war.
I think the point here is that “President” is a conventional honorary title used to refer to a former or current President, while “POTUS” refers to the current President only, the individual who is specifically “President of the United States” right now.
This is, ISTM, similar to other titles mentioned. We might refer to Charlie Baker, say, as “Governor,” but not “Governor of Massachusetts” for example, or a former ambassador as “Ambassador Smith,” but not as “the American ambassador to…”
I'll add that this is a useful distinction. We may want to refer to a retired admiral as "Admiral," but it would be inaccurate to refer to him as "Admiral of the Fifth Fleet," because he manifestly is not in charge of the Fifth Fleet, can issue no orders, etc. This could be important sometime.
Ugh, type out President every single time? Sigh.
Maybe I can shorten it to Prez and leave the POTUS for POTUS Biden. Let me try it.
You could also just type "FPOTUS" for anyone who was previously President.
Like has been mentioned several times.
Or just call him "Trump."
Must you really try to glorify this utterly despicable individual every time you refer to him? Are you that deep?
I guess not, since you don't want to go the extra four keystrokes to get it right.
“The Roman Republic fell when politicians began criminalizing politics.”
WUT.
He's correct.
The last century of the Roman Republic saw a lot of tit-for-tat escalations from political factions as they tried to control power in Rome. From the times of the Gracchi brothers to Sulla to Caesar, Roman politics went from esoteric debate among countrymen to shoving in the streets to mobs of riotous Romans to no less than three major civil wars, the last of which effectively ended the Republic.
In two of the three civil wars during the Late Republic, the losing side's politicians were even proscribed. That's how Cicero met his fate.
You’re describing a violent ancient society. Not “criminalizing politics.”
And we're not a violent society today?
Much less than Ancient Rome!
We are somewhat more civilized than the Romans, one hopes. Regardless, we do live in a society where violence is commonplace now.
Second Amendment violence.
All violence.
No you bloody well don't.
C_XY — But far less commonplace in NY than it was previously. For instance, compare murders in NY today to 1990.
Really? Tell you what lathrop. You agree to meet me at the Oculus. And we'll take the subway together to Brooklyn. But, you have to wear a kippah, a black hat is optional. Oh BTW, do you have grandchildren? Bring them on the subway with you; they don't get a pass because they are children.
Ride the subway for 1 hour. Then come back and tell us how violence is far less commonplace in NYC. I don't go into NYC anymore, why tempt fate.
Huh? What are you talking about? Lathrop and his grandkids would be right at home. I spend lots of time in Brooklyn, including the subway, and the ungentrified parts, and have never felt unsafe or seen any violence.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borough_Park,_Brooklyn
You wear a kippah, Randal?
You've witnessed a rash of anti-kippahtic violence on the Brooklyn subway have you?
Which time period? Early, Mid, Late Republic? Imperial Rome? Early, mid, or late? Or perhaps we can talk about the Roman kingdom before the Republic?
Pick your time period and you might be surprised at the answer you get.
It's a cautionary tale for how we are going.
Trust in our institutions is deteriorating.
The Democrats no longer trust the vote, so they are blatantly breaking our system to ensure the "right" voting result.
Republicans see the breaking in the system and so they no longer trust the vote or the courts as more and more transparently illegal judgements are being made.
When people stop voting at the ballot box they begin to vote with weaponry.
It can not hapoen soon enough.
All-talk, pusillanimous right-wingers are among my favorite culture war casualties.
And a core element of this white, male, movement conservative blog's target audience.
Trust the vote? They've been getting the most votes for a while now, it's Republicans who lean heavily on structural inequalities.
Sorry, he is not correct about the Roman Republic. It fell precisely because some leaders realized that they could force domestic issues using their elite military. Once that precedent was set, any attempt to maintain a republican form of government was doomed. It had nothing to do with criminalizing opponents, the Gracchi or Sulla didn't give a shit about the law. They were about raw power.
The strongmen leaders were elected because they promised to fix the problems of the Republic- those problems were the direct result of the stasis that the Republic found itself in at the time.
The problem was that by the time of the first Triumvirate, those strongmen would have their own personal ambitions, and the Republic's weak institutions were incapable of stopping them.
From the mouths of babes.
NY voted for Hillary in the numbers of almost 80%. So was the judge, prosecutor, and jury saying that if they had known of Trump's incident with the hooker from back in 2006 they would have voted for Hillary even more in 2016? Or, are they saying that those in Ohio, PA and other swing states would have voted less for Trump if they had known of the encounter with the whore? If the second, then isn't that a federal election issue and not a state one? How could NY have a criminal trial on a federal election question?
Very good points!
Burn her! She’s a Witch!
Hey baby, wassup, wat you doin’ at this Sausage Fest? Umm, you aren’t ACB?
Or were they not saying any of that because none of it has anything to do with the state laws Trump was accused of breaking.
In the 2016 election, New York went 59% to 37% for Hillary over Trump. 59 could reasonably be described as "almost 60%." It could not reasonably be described as "almost 80%."
No. They were saying that Trump falsified business records with the intent to conceal another crime.
Does anyone know the phone number for adult protective services in Illinois?
Unlike your wife’s number, most guys don’t have it on their speed dial
I’m just curious. Does anyone here want to claim that Calebresi’s position on all this would be the same if the defendant was named Clinton?
And does anyone else here besides me remember crowds of people chanting “LOCK HER UP” in concert with this same defendant?
But Trump did not prosecute Hillary Clinton.
So then Trump....lied?
Some people take Stolen Valor seriously, and being called losers for fighting other people’s wars, you’re probably one of these cowards all for sending other people’s kids to fight in You-Crane, of course you can make me an asshole by saying what branch of the military you served in (I’ll accept the KISS Army)
Frank
What do you think of Trump's repeated disparagement of American military personnel, Drackman? The cognitive dissonance must be excruciating for an on-the-spectrum, bigoted clinger.
He seems to be butt hurt over some fiction he conjured the other day. The impotent anger has pleased me
I'd take Trumps words over Bidens actions anyway.
Trumps words didn't get people killed.
Tell it to the Kurds.
“I like people who weren’t captured”
- President Bone Spurs
Getting captured was the best thing that ever happened to McCain
Trump tried. She just hadn't done any crimes.
He certainly tried. He ordered an investigation and not even his servile DOJ could find anything. Don’t you remember?
No. And why not? His personal sense of decency, perhaps?
SO, Judge Calabresi -- would you be ok with a misdemeanor conviction for simply cooking the books, or is that somehow also a constitutionally protected activity?
No, I’d let Sleepy slide, he’s a confused old man with a short life expectancy, wouldnt even want Hunter to get jail time, Cocaine and middle age don’t mix well
Frank
I believe the statute of limitations has run on misdemeanors.
But, ignoring statute of limitations, prosecutor motivations, etc., do the facts AS THE JURY HAS FOUND THEM support a conviction for at least a misdemeanor? Answer: of course they do.
Unless it is a publicly traded company, exactly whose business is it if someone does cook the books?
But it's a known fact that Cohen was ripping him off, hence that Cohen's billing records are fraudulent, and that alone ought to constitute reasonable doubt.
The crime isn’t really just cooking the books. It’s fradulently cooking the books. We English-speakers generally assume the fraud is implied since… why else are you cooking the books?
So now are you going to say that fraud should be legal? Just a tort, perhaps? Anything for Trumpelstiltskin!
I mean, they already said that, with respect to the Trump civil trial for falsifying his submissions to banks≥
Alright, enough from the Peanut Gallery, Drackies Layin down the law,
First of all, any of you Homos touch my stuff I’ll kill ya. Did I just commit a felony? Abuse of a “Stripes” reference?
If Sleepy Joe was convicted for some BS charge like this it’d be Reverend Revolting squealing, and the difference is I don’t want Sleepy prosecuted for anything, even the Prosecutor said he’s a confused old man and he’s got a life expectancy of a few months,
That’s the difference
And if any of you Homos touch ME..,,,,
Frank
Does Prof. . . . . oops, I mean Mr. Volokh pay you by the slur?
It’s a Stripes reference Revolting, you should be familiar with “Stripes” given your history
Look. This is a distraction.
Between the fact that the supposed crime being convicted is not a crime at all, is federal instead of a crime in New York state, and was outside the statute of limitations, the mockery of the evidence allowed, which allowed descriptions of sex acts by the former president but not an actual expert on the law discussing what the law said, to jury instructions that ignored the concept of a unanimous jury, to barely-veiled threats against the jury's health and safety.
Going off on the constitutionality and wisdom of campaign finance laws is a distraction at best. It waters down the large and specific problems with this political persecution by distracting everyone.
“which allowed descriptions of sex acts”
All they had to do was stipulate it happened! Then none of that is relevant, and Stormy has no knowledge of the book cooking! Own goal
Don't forget that his lawyers also could have just....objected. I hear that's a thing that lawyers do sometimes .
The Judge decides what the law is, and Merchan was correct in preventing an "expert" from trying to usurp that role with testimony.
Don't come back until you have something accurate to say.
Except that he has no jurisdiction over trying the federal election law case, so his interpretation has no more force than your or my opinion.
Trump wasn't found guilty of violating federal election law. What are you talking about? You guys are just really confused.
Think about this. There's no way that Trump's campaign or Fox News will ever admit he did something wrong. It's all spin. If he had been found guilty of murdering Stormy Daniels, they'd be making up whatever nonsense they could come up with to keep voters like you angry and confused and on Trump's side.
What was the predicate crime that elevated this long expired misdemeanor to a felony?
The felony didn't require a "predicate crime." More confusion from the blinded-by-rage constituency.
You don't even really know what you're angry about, is the sad part.
Yes it did. Have you read any of the articles on this over the past several weeks?
To be honest, I still am not convinced that there was falsification at all. After all, "Legal Expenses" is an accurate description of an NDA payment.
However, that would be a misdemeanor. This only becomes a felony if its done to conceal a crime (literally, something written for the mafia). That crime is election interference. However, that's not even a crime under New York Law, and there is a serious question about how a non-disclosure agreement can be a violation. That is the entire basis of the case.
An intent requirement is not at all the same thing as a predicate crime, sillies.
The intended act has to be a crime, though.
Neither paying off Stormy Daniels, nor refusing to report it as a campaign expenditure, were crimes.
Neither paying off Stormy Daniels, nor refusing to report it as a campaign expenditure, were crimes.
One of those is a crime. Do you think the campaign finance laws are voluntary?
Yeah that may be on me - I used predicate offense above to mean the crime underlying an inchoate offense.
That is incorrect - a predicate offense is just a smaller crime in service of a larger one. It's used in some more complex criminal statues like RICO. It does need to be proven as an element.
Does anyone know if there's a fancy word for the crime associated with an inchoate offense?
One appeals court decision I read used the term concomitant. That or the similar word attendant makes sense to me.
Yes, those words are rather vague when it comes to elucidating the relationship between the falsifying business records crime and the other (concomitant) crime. But maybe that's a reality we're stuck with unless we either (1) use a term that might be misleading as to that relationship or (2) go to some length to spell out that relationship by, e.g., saying something like 'the other crime which is intended to be committed or concealed.'
Perhaps you should cite some of these 'articles' to which you refer.
What you are convinced of doesn't mean a damn thing. A jury of his peers found probable cause to indict him, and a different jury of his peers found that he was guilty of those crimes beyond a reasonable doubt.
Unanimously.
Your understanding of the case, to nobody's surprise, is woefully inadequate and reflective of someone who gets his news from the Trump campaign emails.
Well, since you were not on the jury, you didn't/don't need to be convinced.
Even if that were true, "Retainer for 1/1-1/31/17” and “Retainer for 2/1-2/28/17" and "Retainer for 3/1-3/31/17" and so forth were not accurate descriptions of an NDA payment, and that's how the payments were actually recorded.
No, the crime was a violation of NY Election Law § 17-152, which I assure you is in fact a crime under New York Law.
Trump wasn’t found guilty of violating federal election law.
The whole basis for prosecuting these falsifications as felonies is that they were done to cover up paying off Stormy Daniels, and failing to report it as a campaign expenditure, which the prosecution claimed violated FECA.
However, paying off Stormy Daniels was not a crime, no was failing to report it as a campaign expenditure. As such, these falsifications were misdemeanors whose prosecution was time-barred by the statute of limitation.
You really are still the twit you have always been since I started reading your comments.
Why do you think failing to report campaign expenditures isn't a crime? Did someone on Fox News tell you that, and you thought it made any sense?
Where was it determined to be a campaign expenditure?
It wasn't says Brad Smith who wasn't allowed to testify. See linked article:
https://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2024/06/a-primer-on-the-trump-case.php
If the defense had decided to it could have called Mr. Smith, as an expert witness, to testify to a number of things.
But, no, he wouldn't have been allowed to offer conclusions of law based on the alleged facts of this case. Expert witnesses aren't allow to do that. That's something left to judges and juries.
The jury makes factual determinations based on the evidence presented and then applies the law as instructed by the judge. (Of course, the prosecution and defense get to argue to the judge as to how the jury should be instructed.)
Do you think the instructions which the judge gave the jury regarding FECA were improper? If so, in what way(s)?
That was a question of fact for the jury.
He didn't try a 'federal election case.'
Your uninterrupted streak of being a misinformed liar continues!
Given all the legal expertise you guys are spewing I don't think you or Trump have much to worry about.
The verdicts will surely be dismissed on appeal.
To be safe, if I were you I'd sign on to Trump's defense team, since the one he has is obviously grossly incompetent.
Just get paid in advance, is my advice.
No, I assure you that falsifying business records is indeed a crime in New York.
No, I assure you that falsifying business records is indeed a state crime in New York.
It was not.
The former president opened the door to that by stupidly forcing his lawyers to dispute the affair, instead of just conceding that it happened.
It is black letter law in 50 states, the District of Columbia, and federal court that the only "actual expert on the law" in a courtroom is the judge. Purported experts simply do not get to testify to the jury about what their opinion of the law is. That is the sole province of the judge.
“who have franking privileges”
Is this similar to hot dogging privileges?
Gosh I am really digging all the coping in this thread! Spin harder my pretties!
I realize this won’t move the needle for posters here but…. Are there enough people in this country who will vote for a convicted felon just to own the libs? Maybe not!
James Michael Curley did.
Are there enough people in this country who will vote for a convicted felon just to own the libs?
The sad part is, even if there are, us libs still aren’t going to like you, MAGA.
You’re like an unpopular twelve-year-old who thinks the best way to get a girl to like him is to tease and annoy her. She tells him to go away but he keeps doubling down, since he doesn’t know what else to do.
In fact, I strongly suspect many of you were that twelve-year-old, and you really haven’t picked up many additional social skills since.
Is that what the guys who fuck your wife call it?
Lol. Really frantic today!
I know, you should have a Fresca while your wife makes 20 the hard way
Fresca? Jesus man, you must be older than Biden!
Wow you really don't know what that means?
They get free postage.
Comes from "Franklin" -- first postmaster who got free postage.
How does this blog attract every on-the-spectrum angry right-winger on the Internet?
Leaving aside the Trumpery, and assuming Calabresi to be wrong about there being anything unconstitutional going on here, it seems to me that there is a useful precedent for those states that disapprove of the federal government failing to enforce federal laws that the federal government prefers not to prosecute.
The structure of Bragg's case seems to be {minor state offense plus some other offense = major offense]
The same structure would seem to apply, for example, to {speeding violation plus being in the US unlawfully} and there's no reason to suppose that the link has to be any stronger than "plus"
So the Bragg structure seems to me to be a good route to get round all those pre-emption precedents. I'm sure that clever clogs who came up with the Texas abortion Bill could come up with something.
Isn't the structure unique to NY, though? Meaning, that structure could not be used in IA or ID (as examples), because they don't allow that same structure in their legal code.
I don't think it is wise to encourage that structure, do you?
My theory is that :
1. State legislatures can change the legal code in their state.
2. "Don't kick someone in case you get kicked back" is great advice. But if you're already being kicked, it's kinda late.
The structure already exists and it's been used to administer a good kicking to a political opponent. It's no longer a secret. It's the state of the art.
Might as well use it.
Your idea of legal revenge raises issues of 1) preemption, and 2) criminalization of status not action (see Robinson v. California, (1962)).
You missed “assuming Calabresi to be wrong about there being anything unconstitutional going on here” – this assumption encompasses pre-emption.
If New York is allowed to use the alleged commission, or intent to commit, a federal offense – which the feds have declined to pursue – to upgrade a state offense, then so is any other state.
To achieve the status of being in the US unlawfully, you must have acted either to enter the US unlawfully, or to remain unlawfully having entered lawfully.
Both the preemption and status criminalization are specific to your 'being in the US unlawfully' thrust.
They do not apply to fraud -
The federal government has not preempted that area of law, and the law here is about specific criminal actions related to the fraud, not unrelated offenses or the status of being a fraudster.
The unconstitutionality of criminalizing status is not saved by the acquisition of said status being a criminal act - the law in Robinson criminalized being an illegal drug addict.
Bragg asserted that one of his possible booster offenses was – violations of federal campaign finance law under the Federal Election Campaign Act (FECA). That’s a federal campaign finance law offense, which is for the Feds alone to enforce. And they didn’t.
Thus if that’s OK, and is not pre-emption, then using any uncharged federal offense as a booster is constitutionally OK.
Being an illegal drug addict was what the state law in question targetted. They could have reworded the statute to cover taking illegal drugs. Likewise a state law doesn’t have to target being in the US illegally. It can target entering the US unlawfully, remaining in the US unlawfully, frauduenty or deceitfully obtaining a Social Security number, using such number to gain employment and so on. In fact, on the Bragg theory it doesn’t need to target anything. Any felony (or even misdemeanor) will do.
The point is that Bragg’s theory is an end run around the pre-emption doctrine. If it works for him, it works for anybody, with appropriately drafted state laws.
There is no field preemption for campaign finance like there is for immigration.
https://sgp.fas.org/crs/misc/R45825.pdf
A state law cannot target being in the US illegally or entering the US unlawfully the same way it can fraud. This case does not raise preemption issues at all because election law is not preempted in the same way immigration policy is.
Thank you for your paper explaining how there’s “field pre-emption” for immigration :
The Court has also made clear, however, that other types of state laws concerning aliens do not necessarily fall within the preempted field of alien registration. In its 1976 decision in De Canas v. Bica, for example, the Court held that federal law did not preempt a California law prohibiting the employment of aliens not entitled to lawful residence in the United States. The Court based this conclusion on the absence of provisions regulating employment eligibility in the INA at the time.
The Court has also upheld several state laws regulating the activities of aliens since De Canas. In Chamber of Commerce v. Whiting, for example, the Court held that federal law did not preempt an Arizona statute allowing the state to revoke an employer’s business license for hiring aliens who did not possess work authorization.
Hmmm. Looks more like a small corner of the field.
Preemption is indeed full of exceptions and exceptions to exceptions.
But I don't think that complexity will help your proposed law. Criminal laws are not the same as the civil laws you're pointing to here.
And the lack of a connection between speeding and entering the country illegally still raises criminalization of status concerns.
(Versus fraud to cover up a crime being quite closely connected to said crime)
That’s creative. If it happens, we will get to see (and blog about) arguments on both sides.
I will only add that FECA violations were not listed as an object crime in the jury instructions. Rather, FECA violations were listed as a means to the object crime of conspiring to promote an election by unlawful means (NY 17-152). I don’t think you can tie the means of a speeding violation to unlawful presence (*)
(*) Unlawful presence is not a crime, but there may be other criminal violations of federal law such as unlawful entry.
On second thought, the analysis might be easy. The bump up to a felony required the misdemeanor to be done with the intent to conceal or commit another crime. That is, there is a strong connection between the two.
It’s hard to see how speeding is related to unlawful presence (or entry). So even if FECA violations were the crime being covered up, rather than a means, it likely still doesn’t mean you can tie speeding to immigration violations (unless the speeding occured to avoid being discovered as unlawfully present).
Another difference is that the New York law we're dealing with here is made into a felony by way of a connection to any other crime, not by way of a specific crime.
Maybe it would matter for legal analysis and maybe it wouldn't, but in the latter case it would be easier to argue that the law was constructed as such in order to punish something that the jurisdiction otherwise didn't have the authority to punish.
Instead of policies, the Dems have Trump distracted and whining. To win, the Republicans need to move on and talk about the border, inflation, ...
Independent voters are where the election is won.
The Supreme Court is likely to overturn this conviction (the conviction VA Gov McDonnell and subsequent SC opinion comes to mind, but there the SC was interpreting a federal statute.
SC wont take this case. It will percolate through the courts for years. Meanwhile, the republican house majority is at risk because the Trump acolytes like Marjorie Green are morons.
Trump is not even a conservative. He's a big spending big-government-for-me-but-not-for-thee who let the ATF ban bump stocks.
Move on.
Trump is congenitally unable to move on.
I know you’re too snooty to listen to 45 but 90% of what he talked about yesterday was Crime/Border/Inflation, I’m sorry “Lincoln Riley” (ht Sleepy Joe) was murdered but that pos will make “45” “47”
Frank
“But I don't feel 77. Nobody ever says that about me. I would like them to say, we have to have a little sorrow for this man because they just don't say that about me.”
I guess this was part of the other 10%
What a whiner!
Like you’d be any better fuck-face
Better at what? Making 45 minute rambling stream of consciousness speech whining about how unfair life is? From a guy who was born on third base and thinks he hit a triple?
“Fuck face”
Bite me you hoser
You can always tell sissies that never played real sports( i.e. ones people have been killed playing) or owned a business when they use bullshit metaphors like you did, what have you ever built except a bad case of hemorrhoids?
Frank
Ironically I do actually own a business. Wanna guess how many times I’ve declared bankruptcy?
Well since Male Prostitution is Ill-legal at Bushwood I’m guessing never.
I never slice
I’ll give you that one, anyone who speaks Caddyshack can’t be all bad
Frank
I mean, you are the one voting for the Spaulding Smails of presidential candidates after all
I liked Spaulding, and Dr Beeper, so when Al, I mean Sleepy hurts his arm, who’s going to take his place? Common-Law Willie-Brown-Harris?
I want a hamburder! No, I want a cheeseburder!
“I liked Spaulding”
No offense but I’m not shocked that you identify with the guy chugging left-behind cocktails at the party
I still can't believe that they got away with blowing up the country club like they did. This was 1978-- no CGI, those were real explosions.
Lotsa content today Frank! You seem stressed! Good news though:
“On this dark day in history, I’m releasing this NEVER SURRENDER BLACK MAGA hat to stand against this injustice!
NOW is the time to help me Save America >
NOBODY HAS THIS HAT YET, AND I SAVED YOU ONE.”
You’re in luck! Donate today
Already did, like millions of other Amuricans, make sure you don’t have any sharp objects around on Nov 6
“Already did”
Omg, bless your heart! How much? 10? 25? 50? The individual max?
Jeez, I complimented you for your Caddyshack skills and you're still a prick, lets just say I gave more than John Louis or Floyd George did.
Sorry, you deserve no quarter
“They were able to use people, salacious— by the way, nothing ever happened. There was no anything”
Also part of the 10% presumably
I see that professor Torquemada Calabresi continues his quest to be the DOJ shock worker on the upcoming revenge prosecutions.
Well, I have to say that Calabresi did not disappoint. I expected a rant unhinged from, you know, actual legal-like substance ... and that's what we received!
It would be nice if Calabresi actually could take a breath and try to provide some commentary that was loosely tied into actual law - basic things like appellate review of state crime convictions - instead of just ranting.
Honestly, as much as I might make fun of some of the commenters here for not knowing the law, they do a better job than what Calabresi is offering.
I thought it was perfect. 10/10, no notes.
This was a retread.
Not to the very high bar of innovative ignorance I've come to expect from Calabresi.
Now that he's got a head of steam up, though, I'm pretty optimistic about the next few days!
I give it 7/10. Subtract 2 because TL. subtract one because rants should be ALL CAPS, or at least the major bits.
I too was disappointed by the lack of ALL CAPS.
how can you guys waste so much time?
Ironic comment
They're not wasting time.
Guys like Harlan Crow, Leonard Leo, and Paul Singer pay these right-wing misfits plenty to tilt at the mainstream windmills of modern America. It's enough that I figure they don't care their employers and colleagues disrespect and dislike them.
"the mainstream windmills of modern America"
Rev is finally calling a spade a spade.
I, for one, hope that the Supreme Court does not hear any of this prior to Election Day, and that none of the New York appellate courts overturn any portion of the verdict. These convictions are a coup for Donald Trump and the Republicans, and any movement in the opposite direction will only serve to depress conservative voter turnout and increase Biden's support. The Democrats have committed an all-time own-goal with this prosecution, and I hope for the good of the country they are not allowed to take it back.
We reached new heights of begging to not throw him in the briar patch, now he's in the briar patch, well, that's shown 'em!
Me: "Dems gained absolutely nothing through this prosecution, while Trump's polling and fundraising has never been stronger."
You: "sour grapes lol!"
'We're giving money to and voting for a convicted felon and rapist' is the kind of thing that reflects badly on you, not on anyone else.
Trump isn't a convicted rapist but don't let pesky little things like facts stand in your way, European.
He's not a convicted rapist he was just found liable for sexual asault and the judge in the case said that yes, he was a rapist!
Woah a Democrat called a Republican a name!
That has so much gravitas!
No, he called a rapist a rapist.
Gravitas! That's so powerful! It's as powerful as when Sacastr0 or Rev. calls a conservative a bigot!
Very very powerful and meaningful.
Rev. is a clown. If SarcastrO calls someone a bigot, they're probably a bigot.
Accuracy, is the word you're groping for.
Trump's not a convicted rapist in exactly the same way that OJ Simpson wasn't a convicted murderer. Meaning he's a rapist in exactly the same way that OJ Simpson was a murderer.
Except there was more evidence that OJ committed that murder. There is zero evidence that Trump committed that rape.
But don't let that stop you from fucking that chicken.
I think you'll find he was found liable for sexual assault. It's on his record. It's who you're voting for.
When the purported victim can't even say when it allegedly happened, that's really convincing to me...
You can't even remember what day yesterday was.
I don’t care what fake records or convictions or circus trials the Democrats hold.
I really don’t. They don’t mean anything. These Democrat institutions have get no respect. They deserve none.
You mean American institutions, naturally.
Institutions controlled by Democrats are more Jewish than American. In fact, odds are they are run by dual-citizen Jews.
The Globalist bent, and not necessarily the Zionist bent.
Mr. Volokh, Prof. Bernstein, and Prof. Blackman will issue a pass with respect to your antisemitism because you are a bigoted right-wing asshole in good standing with those partisan hacks. Congratulations on your privileged status at this white, male, bigoted blog.
You mean, other than sworn testimony from the victim?
Listen to all these conservatives running to the federal government for help and recourse. Glorious!
No conservative who has had their eyes open since 2016 thinks the federal government is anything but a den of vile evil monsters who are worth less than that pretty white speck on top of chickenshit.
And yet, so many of those same folks just gagging for it to intervene.
Didn't you say it was all a game yesterday?
You sure seem to be taking it seriously.
Though not seriously to do what your claims imply and flee this benighted country with it's awful government that protects your right to endlessly whinge on an Internet it developed.
No, that’s not what I said. I also corrected your lame, gaslighting straw hot take yesterday too.
>Though not seriously to do what your claims imply and flee this benighted country with it’s awful government that protects your right to endlessly whinge on an Internet it developed.
What a gaslighting bootlicker. The government absolutely does not protect my right to “endlessly whinge”. They have whole departments and agencies out there working to silence people like me.
You know, to protect our Sacred Democracies from the evils of misinformation and disinformation as determined by CISA or State or any of the other dozens of federal Ministry of Truths.
They have whole departments and agencies out there working to silence people like me.
You could at least do us the favor of pretending like it was working.
Every time you comment, it weakens your own case!
This you?
“I’m Team Edward and you’re Team Jacob. I don’t get sad when Bella sees you being a werewolf.”
Very srs.
They have whole departments and agencies out there working to silence people like me.
Incredible cunning by you to have dodged them this long.
Posting on here may not be the wisest thing to do if they are truly after you.
>>“I’m Team Edward and you’re Team Jacob. I don’t get sad when Bella sees you being a werewolf.”
>Very srs.
Oh noes! I poked fun of you for being a homo in an open thread! I am not ‘srs’ ‘pyrsyn’! I should adopt neo pronouns and demand every call me Mx. JHBHBE! That's what all the REAL SERIOUS people do! What are your pronouns Mx. Craptastic0?
> Incredible cunning by you to have dodged them this long.
> Posting on here may not be the wisest thing to do if they are truly after you.
On your planet and in your language, when people say “like me”, are they saying “exactly me”?
I see nothing about me being gay, I see you saying it's all a game and the sides are arbitrary.
And yes, when you say the government is going after people like you, I think you're included in that set.
“If Buckley v. Valeo was argued to be an obstacle to Trump prevailing, the Supreme Court would today, in 2024, and should today, in 2024, overrule the campaign finance contribution limits of federal election law as violations of the freedom of speech.“
Professor Calabresi:
Assuming Justice Thomas would vote to do that, whom do you think the other four votes would come from?
Congratulations, Calabresi! Your inane, moronic comment has managed to draw out pretty much all the regular Trump-hugging idiots from the basements they hide in when they're not posting ill-informed garbage on the VC. And not one of them seems willing to answer a very basic question: Why Trump? Can't they find a leader to worship who understands basic concepts such as ethics and morality?
Anyone with those values gets thrown out of the modern Republican party by the cultists.
Do the Volokh Conspiracy’s fans recognize that one of the Volokh Conspirators is considered a legitimate, mainstream, respected academic in today’s America?.
Just one. And that guy has largely disassociated himself from this blog.
The others are regarded — by colleagues, by employers, by students, and by everyone else outside the clingerverse — as disaffected misfits, low-grade partisans, purveyors of stale and ugly thinking, and token right-wingers.
You guys understand that, right?
FWIW, I should point this out-
"Alvin Bragg argues that the Trump organization's contribution of $130,000 to pay Stormy Daniels hush money exceeded federal campaign finance limits on contributions."
Not quite. There were three crimes (in terms of the other crimes that there could be an intent to commit, or to air of conceal the commission thereof)-
NYEL sec. 17-152
FECA
Tax laws (New York and State)
Even if Calabresi was right on this statement (uh..... yep), it doesn't matter because that's not the sole issue.
Ugh. Whatever.
A small, but perhaps important clarification.
The jury instructions said the only object crime was 17-152 which proscribes a conspiracy to promote an election by unlawful means. The unlawful means were FECA, NY tax laws, and falsification of other business records. I suspect these intructions were chosen to insure that juror unanimity was not needed on the means.
However, if one of those means is FECA, and there may be a juror who relied only on FECA as the unlawful means, the verdict could be vacated if the payment is not considered a campaign contribution on appeal.
Two things on that-
As I previously linked to, there is authority that the instructions are correct.
Next, assuming (arguendo) that this is the objection, we would need an actual contemporaneous objection to those instructions. To date, I have not been impressed by the specificity of the objections of the defense.
It doesn’t matter, the FECA instruction was flawed. The jury isn’t knowledgeable enough to make a determination about FECA to convict someone. The judge isn’t knowledgeable and he made it seem that FECA was subjective; it is not.
Also Bragg brought back to life 34 “falsified documents misdemeanors” on the foundation of 1 17-152 charge. Everyone of the 34 was based on 1 crime the same crime. 17-152 was the true crime the falsifying of documents was to conceal or commit this crime. I Donte believe this is how it works.
Imagine being charged for destruction of property with the underlying crime burglary. You only broke in 1 x why should you be charged for the 34 items you broke in the house.
Seems Bragg set the indictment to get the max penalty for the defendant. I find it questionable to law actually allows an indictment to not have an underlying crime. Had Bragg laid the foundation in the indictment on the 17-152 charge. Would have had a lot of people question it due to Clinton violating this same crime and admitting it.
She was in a conspiracy to prevent a candidate election to public office by unlawful means. The unlawful means was the FECA violation with the Steele dossier they admitted they violated the law. They paid a fine. So Trump gets 33 felonies Clinton a slap on the wrist? It’s wild.
I really think he is innocent and Bragg brought this to harm trumps civil rights and chances for reelection I think what Bragg did was a violation of 17-152 this is a conspiracy to prevent Trump from public office by unlawful means. Those unlawful means are the civil rights of Donald Trump. I think the conspiracy is with the Biden DOJ, and his prosecutors.
Yes, there were three possible crimes, but the DA had to argue that all three were crimes, and the judge instructed the jury that all three were crimes. Maybe the facts did not support Trump being guilty of these crimes, that was for the jury to decide. But the DA and judge did decide that these would be crimes, if the facts supported them.
The DA did not even present facts to support these three crimes, because the judge decided that Trump just needed to intend one of them, and did not actually have to commit one.
An appeals court could still decide that all three supposed crimes are not crimes.
You say things about what has to happen, but you didn't cite anything.
You don't get to just make up what the law requires so you can declare Trump was done wrong.
I mean, I guess you get to, but it makes you look silly.
That is correct. Because that's what the statute says.
RE: "Alvin Bragg argues that the Trump organization's contribution of $130,000 to pay Stormy Daniels hush money exceeded federal campaign finance limits on contributions. The federal government itself has adopted a policy of not prosecuting hush money payments as illegal campaign contributions in the wake of ... "
That doesn't mean that the hush-money payments are a non-crime, does it?
RE: "The Roman Republic fell when politicians began criminalizing politics...."
WRONG! Tiberius criminalized politics to the point where any Roman Senator who expressed political differences with him had to prepare to be put on trial for treason or some other trumped-up charge, and Tiberius kept the Roman Empire militarily secure and financially sound - not just solvent but with plenty of reserves. The fall didn't come until much later, after Emperors Caligula, Claudius, and Nero.
The Fall came 400 years after Nero (1400 years in the East).
Professor Calabresi's analysis is incompetent or intellectually dishonest. In either event, it is shameful that he is teaching future lawyers.
Calabresi asserts, "President Donald Trump was convicted yesterday of allegedly altering business records to conceal his alleged payment of money to a porn star, Stormy Daniels, in order to influence the 2016 presidential election. But, altering business records under New York State law is only a crime if it is done to conceal the violation of some other law."
That is a flat out lie. The second sentence there is false in that NY Penal Code § 175.05 provides:
When the intent to defraud includes an intent to commit another crime or to aid or conceal the commission thereof, that elevates the offense to falsifying business records in the first degree, a felony.
The offense Trump was convicted of is not "altering business records to conceal his alleged payment of money to a porn star, Stormy Daniels[.]" Trump paid money to Michael Cohen and falsified records to conceal the crimes that Cohen had committed at Trump's behest.
Calabresi asserts:
This is misleading as to the import of Buckley v. Valeo to the instant prosecution. Trump indeed could have spent an unlimited amount his own money to pay off Stormy Daniels, but that is not what Trump did. Trump was not the payor, and the money was not Trump's funds. Michael Cohen paid off Ms. Daniels, using money that Cohen had borrowed on a home equity line of credit.
What Cohen did violated the cap on contributions to a political candidate, then $2,700, which was upheld in Buckley. The limitation reaches a gift, subscription, loan, advance, deposit of anything of value, or promise to give a contribution, made for the purpose of influencing a primary election, a Presidential preference primary, or a general election for any federal office. 424 U.S. at 23. Cohen effectively made a prohibited loan to Trump's general election campaign.
Calabresi posits that "Under Citizens United, it was perfectly legal for The Trump Organization to pay Daniels $130,000 in hush money to conceal her alleged affair with Donald Trump. Again, the payor was Michael Cohen, not The Trump Organization.
Calabresi hypothecates that "If Buckley v. Valeo was argued to be an obstacle to Trump prevailing, the Supreme Court would today, in 2024, and should today, in 2024, overrule the campaign finance contribution limits of federal election law as violations of the freedom of speech." The word "if" is doing some mighty heavy lifting there. As Cassandra told Wayne Campbell, if a frog had wings, he wouldn't bump his ass when he hopped. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nV9U23YXgiY
To paraphrase Donald Rumsfeld, you go to court with the law you have, not the law you might want or wish to have at a later time. At the time of Michael Cohen's payment to Stormy Daniels and Donald Trump's subsequent monkeying around with the business records, the $2,700 cap on individual contributions to federal campaigns (including loans) was the law of the land, having been upheld by the Supreme Court. The hypothetical possibility that SCOTUS may in the future disavow that potion of Buckley v. Valeo is simply irrelevant to Donald Trump's state of mind when he falsified business records.
Calabresi asserts, "The U.S. Supreme Court needs to hear this case as soon as possible because of its impact on the 2024 presidential election between President Trump and President Biden." This ignores the proposition that federal courts can exercise jurisdiction only to the extent authorized by Congress. The appellate jurisdiction of SCOTUS is defined and limited by Congress. The only statutory provision for SCOTUS review of a state criminal conviction is 28 U.S.C. 1257(a), which permits final judgments or decrees rendered by the highest court of a State in which a decision could be had -- and only final judgments or decrees -- to be reviewed by the Supreme Court by writ of certiorari as to issues of federal law which have been properly preserved in the state court system.
Yes, paying of the prostitute was part of the other crime. That is why she testified.
You seem to be argument that anytime someone provides a service to a political campaign, he must be paid the same day, or he is guilty of an illegal loan.
You’re apparently confused about terminology. Calabresi is a prostitute. Stormy Daniels is an adult film actress.
Tee hee!
A loan to the presidential campaign exceeding $2,700 was a prohibited contribution no matter when it was paid off. Labeling the $35,000 repayment installments as a retainer during a time while no legal services were being provided was intended to conceal the unlawful contribution.
“Yes, paying of the prostitute was part of the other crime.”
Well, as we all know, the “J” in Donald J. Trump is short for JOHN.
And if you’ve been alive for the last 40 years, you know that fits. To the point where he’d call papers using a fake name to brag about it.
(Again, there are interesting legal issues in the case. It's unfortunate that, for the most part, we can't discuss them. But the one thing I can't understand is how people that have paid any attention to the life and times of Donald J. Trump are at all surprised that he has been involved in criminal activity of various kinds, to the extent that they need to defend his character and attack the justice system.)
Underlying all this outrage from Trump supporters as to there being nothing illegal is the premise that it was perfectly acceptable for Trump to have sex with a porn star while his wife was at home with their baby and that it was perfectly ok for him to pay her off to keep quiet. Contrast this with how they reacted with Bill Clinton and Gennifer Flowers, Paula Jones, etc.
Nothing ok about it ... only that it was not illegal.
I haven’t heard ANY Republican say there was nothing ok about it. None have condemned it. “Their silence is deafening.”
You are not paying attention. The Republican Party has a signification faction of never-Trumpers who regularly complain about various aspects of Trump's behavior.
They often mention allegations of sexual relations with Daniels. Often not, as there is no proof that it ever happened. We just have her uncorroborated testimony.
Not that significant, clearly.
Actually, adultery is still a class B misdemeanor in New York thanks to a law passed in 1907.
As early as the 1960s legislators realized this was almost entirely unenforceable and not appropriate for legislation. Many attempts at repeal have been made, including Bill A4714 that passed both houses two months ago but has not yet been delivered to the Governor.
If you insist on technicalities, may I note that no adultery was proven, and Daniels lost her pants when she tried to prove it did.
Resorting to an "it was not illegal" defense is insisting on a technicality, the difference is my technicality is true.
Yes.
Many of these supporters are strongly religious, firm Bible believers, who like to condemn others for violating Biblical law.
Indeed, they want the Ten Commandments prominently displayed pretty much everywhere. Except the 7th, of course.
Is there any of the seven deadly sins that Donald Trump does not personify?
Sloth is the only one that's even arguable.
Not at all. He is quite lazy. He doesn't read; he doesn't follow through on much of anything. He certainly doesn't exercise.
or yourself? wow, we're certainly judgemental today, so you're not a fat fuck? you sound like one.
I am sure that those Bible believers would say that Trump should obey Biblical law. Even if he once violated that law, and that is uncertain, he could still be a good President.
“once”? He’s on tape boasting about it.
For believers to accept Trump's mortal sins, he would have to repent them. Including the sin of simony: Buying or selling of spiritual things
How can someone who is sleazy, corrupt and dishonest be a good president? You keep complaining that Biden is corrupt and dishonest, even though examples of his dishonesty seem mostly trivial and isolated and his corruption remains defiantly unproven, but Trump, who is shown to be both over and over again along with the sleaze, 'could still be a good president?'
7th Commandment, depending on what version you use.
Let’s get this straight. Mr. Calabresi is now claiming the First Amendment to the Constitution protects prostitution as long as it is accompanied by a confidentiality agreement?
The First Amendment protects neither. It does not protect prostitution. Nor does it protect confidentiality agreements, which governments are free to outlaw as against public policy id they want.
Adding two unprotected activities together does not create a protected activity. Mr. Calabresi’s strategem of designating the money as being for the confidentiality agreement rather than the sex itself does not magically transmogrify conduct long regarded as criminalizable into constitutionally protected conduct.
Trump’s best argument, it seems to me, is that sex accompanied by a confidentiality agreement does not constitute a campaign contribution within the meaning of the New York statute and hence the felony convictions are contrary to state law. But I don’t see any plausible constitutional argument. Even if the election-law violations resulting in the felony convictions are vacated on these grounds, tmisdemeanor convictions for simply falsifying business records would still remain.
The election-law-violation theory seems to hinge on the payment being an illegal campaign contribution. By Trump.
Under Buckley v. Valeo, Trump is entitled to spend as much as he wishes on that. So if the theory is it was an illegal contribution, then the First Amendment as interpreted by Buckley obviates that theory.
There are other theories, but as I understand the case was charged, the jury could pick any one.
"misdemeanor convictions for simply falsifying business records would still remain." -- Nope. Those have 2-year statute of limitations. They would have to be dismissed, albeit under state law, not Constitutional law.
“The election-law-violation theory seems to hinge on the payment being an illegal campaign contribution. By Trump.
“Under Buckley v. Valeo, Trump is entitled to spend as much as he wishes on that. So if the theory is it was an illegal contribution, then the First Amendment as interpreted by Buckley obviates that theory.”
Uh, no. Donald Trump would indeed have been entitled to spend as much of his own money as he wished on his election campaign. But Trump was not the payor to Stormy Daniels, nor was it Trump’s money. Michael Cohen paid $130,000 to Ms. Daniels with money he borrowed on his own home equity line of credit.
Buckley v. Valeo upheld the limits on individual contributions to federal election campaigns. Cohen made an unlawful contribution to Trump’s campaign. It doesn’t matter that Cohen was repaid with Trump money. The definition of contribution at issue in Buckley included a loan to the campaign.
So politicians and umiquely politicians get to have the best babes money can buy if they designate the deal a campaign contribution? It’s not just that the theory inplies the constitution protects the right of politicians to use campaign funds for hookers. It also suggests that a lot more people would be declaring themselves candidate for office. It’s not quite droit de seigneur, but it practically make the politician class a nobility. All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.
Look, it’s one thing to prostitute oneself for Mr. Trump. But to pimp for him?
Except Cohen paid the money, not Trump.
Calabresi forgot to mention this because it would invalidate half of his article.
How did the GOP let itself get taken over by an unfaithful seditionist abusive grifter con-man felon without any ideas?
From Lincoln to Trump. What a tragedy.
yeah "W" was awful, 3,000+ Amuricans killed on his "Watch" after he was warned Bin Laden would strike, 2 wars, 50,000 Amurican Casualties, spent the surplus Clinton left him with, stupid Medicare Prescription Drug Program, Oh, and his VP shot a guy in the Heart, but he won re-erection
Frank
So, time to start fresh?
How did you let your cornhole get filled with diseased man juice?
Lots of commentators putting lots of faith in the power of the "F" word.
Don't worry, while you guys treat it as a badge of pride for Trump, you can still retain the awful negative connotations when applied to black people.
...and possibly Hunter (deadbeat) Biden?
Oh yes, to you he will forever be stained with the scarlet ‘F.’ He doesn't even have to be convicted of anything.
Always amusing when righties try and argue that Hunter and Trump are equivalent, but also Hunter is a truly awful criminal shambles of a human.
Do...do you realize what you're saying about Trump here?
I made no such "argument".
I doubt you even knew what point you were trying to make.
To the dean and faculty of Northwestern School of Law:
Are you paying attention to this shit?
To the students at the Northwestern School of Law:
You are not required to accept any assignment to this clown's class. Read his most recent half-dozen Volokh Conspiracy posts and ask, "What could this guy teach me that a couple of hours of watching Newsmax, Fox, One America, Alex Jones' Infowars, and Steve Bannon could not?" You deserve better.
(This is inapplicable to the fledgling bigots and aspiring culture war write-offs of the Northwestern Federalist Society: Those clingers and Prof. Calabresi deserve each other.)
Get the disgraced Foo-Bawl Coach mentoring Law Screw-dents, like taking legal advice from Jackie Chiles
Frank
For all that it's worth, I will write the following-
1. If you find that your news sources are just telling you what you want to hear, find better sources. Read material that makes you think and reconsider your positions, not material that provides fuel to anger your blood (but is usually wrong, and will be forgotten when the next whatever happens).
2. This was actually the weakest of the pending cases against Trump. That said, the case had merit, and nothing I saw in the judge's opinions or the jury instructions was incorrect or in contravention of the law as I understand it.
3. The decisions by the defense team (likely dictated by the client) clearly hurt them in the case and with the jury. For example, the fact of the affair with Stormy Daniels did not matter in the case, but by denying it the defense wasted time, allowed additional bad evidence in, made their client look less credible, and wrecked their closing.
4. Building on (3), the defense would have been much better off focusing on particular elements of the offense and hammering them. The failure to do that during closing, and instead turning it into the "Cohen show," hurt them immensely (IMO).
5. Given what I observed, the conviction is unsurprising. That said, there will be some appellate issues. The NY 1st Jud. App. Dep't has jurisdiction over the appeals, and it has (both de facto and de jure) more discretion to review the findings of the jury than I think many state appellate courts would consider. In addition, it is my understanding that white collar defendants often have an easier time with them. Finally there are some decent legal issue for the appeal- not because (IMO) the trial court judge did anything incorrect, but because there are a few issues that are underexplored in the precedent.
All that said, ranting like the one above by Calabresi that completely ignore how the actual law works (really? the Supreme Court is going to immediately review a state court criminal conviction????) do nothing to help people understand the real issues. You'd be better off believing the words coming out of the mouth of Donald ("The judge won't let me testify") Trump.
Nice summary. Your point 3 is particularly cogent, I think. And altho it wasn't mentioned, its focus may have tended to recall - unnecessarily - the E. Jean Carroll mess.
I think #4 was worse. Denying the Stormy Daniels affair was pointless, but I'm not sure how badly it hurt him. But deciding to bounce the rubble on Cohen by calling Costello as a witness went terribly awry for Trump. Costello ended up hurting Trump far more than helping, by making it clear how much the Trump team thought that Cohen was bad for them and how they were desperate to keep him in the fold back in the day.
The Stormy Daniels testimony really made Trump look bad. Do you think that if the defense had offered to stipulate that Trump had sex with her, they could have convinced the judge not to allow her as a witness?
If the underlying act was stipulated to, it would have been easy for the defense to either stipulate to the predicate facts, or severely limit her testimony to details related to the payment only.
the case had merit,
Bullshit.
-jcr
Who can argue with that legal analysis?
"and liberal icon, Anthony M. Kennedy"
That's right, the comment section has merged into Calabresi.
"You can contribute money to generate good publicity. And, you can contribute money to avoid bad publicity. The First Amendment protects freedom of speech in both cases" -- this doesn't make sense. Generating publicity is speech. "Avoiding publicity" is not speech. The counterpart of "generating good publicity" for your candidates or ideas is "generating bad publicity" for opposing candidates or ideas. The analogy that justified equating money with speech was that a right to drive must include the right to buy gas. A right NOT to drive does not need to include a right to buy anything.
This case should not be expedited due to the election because the other cases are not given that same consideration.
This case only exists because of the election, pinhead.
-jcr
Also Stormy was right to be allowed to testify because Trump denied it happened. Also the jury needed to know what info Trump was suppressing.
Yada, yada, yada...
Bumble would rather that were suppressed.
Most rational thinking people that are lacking ideological blinders know that this trial was purely political with the main purpose of depressing trumps numbers in the polls and to give democrats another label to slap on trump they can use on the campaign trail in essence it is election interference at its best !
But at the end of the day the real losers will be the state and city of NY and on top of the list alvin bragg !
Sure he got his conviction and by doing so made good on the promise he made when he was running but if indeed the conviction does not affect trumps numbers or even boosts them , if trump and republicans gain a significant fundraising advantage , if trump wins the election maybe even topping it off by winning VA and getting close in NY , if democrats get swept away by a red wave and the state of NY as well as the city is losing business than the left will be out for blood and guess who will become the lightning rod ? nobody but bragg will get the blame !
Claiming the mantle of speaker for the rational. Never a move actually rational people pull.
Seems to me that the main reason the lefturds are in such a panic about Trump's probable re-election is that this time he has no reason to play nice like he did when he let Hillary off the hook. He could make Trey Gowdy or Ted Cruz the attorney general, and start putting them away for decades each for real crimes that they've actually committed.
-jcr
I strongly doubt the jury even understood what the elements of the case were. How were they able to memorize 55 pages worth of jury instructions from a single reading by the judge? I could barely wrap my head around the legal elements while reading the instructions on paper. The charge is completely incoherent. Trump was convicted of falsifying business record with intent to commit, aid, or conceal a conspiracy to elect Trump by FECA violation, tax violation, or falsification of business records.
The biggest problem with the case is how could Trump have intended to influence the election with the business falsification? Say, instead of “legal expenses”, he wrote “loan reimbursement to Michael Cohen for payment to prostitute.” What difference would it make what he wrote? This was an internal document that no one was ever expected to see. It’s nonsensical in this context Trump was charged. The prosecution is basically arguing Trump tried to conceal embarrassing information from voters by making a payment. That’s not what he charged with though. The false business record had to have furthered the conspiracy.
Also, the last two unlawful means theories are nonsensical. People don’t conspire to win elections by committing tax violations or falsifying business records. This law is dealing with election fraud such as stuffing ballot boxes or voting multiple times.
I won’t even get into the FECA but suffice to say Trump couldn’t have violated it.