The Volokh Conspiracy
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Were There Last Minute Changes to Trump v. Anderson?
There are reasons to suspect the justices were wrangling over language up until the last minute.
All nine justices were able to agree on a bottom-line result in Trump v. Anderson: States cannot disqualify candidates for federal offices from the ballot under Section 3. But they were not in agreement on what the decision should say. I suspect that they were wrangling over the language of the per curiam and other opinions until the last minute as they rushed to issue an opinion in advance of Super Tuesday primary voting (or the Monday release the Court had already announced).
As Mark Joseph Stern noted yesterday on Xitter, the three-justice opinion concurring in the judgment appears to have been originally drafted as an opinion by Justice Sotomayor "concurring in part and dissenting in part." So either Justice Sotomayor was confused about how to style an opinion that reaches the same bottom line judgment of the majority (unlikely), or something changed in one or both opinions. [Sidenote: Who thinks to check metadata by double-clicking random parts of an opinion or searching for ghost text?]
There are other indications things may have been revised quite late. For instance, the three-justice opinion accuses the majority of holding that "a disqualification for insurrection can occur only when Congress enacts a particular kind of legislation pursuant to Section 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment." The majority certainly holds that Section 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment vests in Congress the power to enforce Section 3, but nowhere does it require a "particular kind of legislation." Might this be responding to language in a per curiam draft that was later watered down? It's quite possible the per curiam was changed leaving no time for additional revisions to other opinions.
There's also a line in Justice Barrett's separate opinion that seems to be jousting with something that is not there. After explaining why she did not join parts of the per curiam, Barrett writes:
The majority's choice of a different path leaves the remaining Justices with a choice of how to respond. In my judgment, this is not the time to amplify disagreement with stridency. The Court has settled a politically charged issue in the volatile season of a Presidential election. Particularly in this circumstance, writings on the Court should turn the national temperature down, not up.
"Stridency"? Really? Justice Barrett does not strike me as that sensitive. Perhaps the thre-justice opinion's citations to the Chief's separate Dobbs opinion and Breyer's Bush v. Gore dissent were a tad salty, but "strident"? This makes me wonder further whether there was language in the three-justice opinion that was watered down or removed, and the rush to issue the opinion prevented further revisions in response. (Or perhaps Justice Barrett initially drafted this language in response to a Justice Sotomayor partial dissent.
There are other places where the opinions do not quite mesh the way one would expect were there time for lots of back-and-forth, but these are a two I thought worth highlighting.
I had also initially wondered about the lack of a syllabus, but it turns out this is standard for per curiam slip opinions. They are initially issued without syllabi, which are later added for publication in the U.S. Reports.
Well, that's enough procrastination-through-speculation for one day.
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I had read the analysis of the metadata, and I think that it is possible to draw some possible conclusions from it.
That said, I am more concerned about this opinion on a fundamental level. This could have been an easy 9-0 per curiam opinion, and I truly think that many past courts would have reached that result.
That the justices were unable to compromise on a limited holding and release a 9-0 opinion on this, given that they all agreed on the result and the basic reasoning ... make it appear that all is not copacetic.
This should have been an easy slam dunk for the Court to at least give the appearance of full unity in a case that, arguably, calls for it. That they could not do so even when they appear to have agreed on at least a limited result is ... troubling.
They decided the case before Colorado voted, and maybe that was their priority. If getting a unanimous opinion would have taken another week, I prefer this outcome.
That's not the issue. They could have (should have) decided the case with unanimity prior to the vote.
That they could not agree on a unanimous and per curiam decision with all nine on board speaks volumes to the lack of ability of this current Court for people to sacrifice small things in order to maintain institutional relevance.
I know that there are people that don't care about these things, but it is important. If all nine justices agree on the result, then the inability to issue a decision with all nine on board speaks volumes.
I am not sure that they actually all agreed on the result.
I think that the liberal wing understood that they weren't going to "win" on disqualification, and so sought the best rationale for handing the "win" to Trump. The "states can't disqualify" argument is doctrinally bizarre, but perhaps better than "an organized attempt to engage in a legal coup, culminating in the violence of J6, is not actually an 'insurrection'" or "the president is not an 'officer' for purposes of 14.3" rationales, particularly because it leaves the charge of insurrection under the existing federal statute on the table as a means to disqualification of Trump (even if all but foreclosed by current timing).
I think they also used unanimity on this opinion as leverage for concessions in the handling of the immunity appeals. Perhaps the conservative wing was content to calendar the immunity cert for further in the future, with no possible resolution by the June opinions, and the way we avoided it was three votes on this case.
Actually, they all did agree on the result.
The result was 9-0 in favor of reversing the Colorado Supreme Court and that states can't enforce that clause against federal candidates. Whether of not you find that doctrinally bizarre, there was complete agreement on that.
The rest is speculation at this point.
I think SKJ (Sotomayor, Kagan, Jackson) limited their conclusion to the presidency. I doubt that would have been a sticking point preventing unanimity.
I'm speculating Roberts did not want this case to ever come back to the Court and was willing to forgo full unanimity to foreclose an action in federal court.
This appears to be what happened. I think that was a bad call by Roberts. Better to have a limited opinion with complete unanimity.
On the other hand, he gets unanimity on the result, so lots of 9-0 headlines, but also gets to a narrow 5-4 that prevents this issue from coming back to the Supreme Court this year. But I agree with loki, that feels like there is something wrong with the Court. It was easy to get to 9-0 with no concurrences, but the 5 Justice majority was not willing to stay silent regarding potential future challenges in the federal system.
It's not a good day for the Supreme Court, if you ask me. But, of course, you didn't.
Actually, they all did agree on the result.
You're not understanding my point, which I think I made clearly enough, and I don't appreciate your unmerited condescension.
I understand how they voted. I'm aware also of the questions they asked at oral argument. What I am suggesting is that they strategically tried to frame and move the discussion, through their questions at oral argument and their votes, so that they could get to a "least bad" outcome. I am suggesting that they deliberated internally before any of this surfaced in the public.
Yes, that's speculation. But it's speculation designed to explain, as I said, a doctrinally bizarre holding, apparent signs of dissension among the justices, and the timing of this opinion as well as the scheduling of oral argument in the immunity appeals.
Pedantically re-affirming what every fucking headline has said about the opinion is not responsive.
Yeah, but your speculation is that the Sotomayor concurring block didn't want this result, but acquiesced to get...something.
I think it's bleeding obvious they did agree on the result, just not how the majority got there, including because it was unnecessary for the five-Justice majority to speak on potential future challenges when all that needed to be decided was could Colorado do what they did. And there were 9-0 on that.
It was a failure by Roberts not to take a genuine 9-0 win and instead turn it into a 5-4 decision on matters that, frankly, weren't necessary to resolve this case.
Yeah, but your speculation is that the Sotomayor concurring block didn’t want this result, but acquiesced to get…something.
I described the "something," above. I'm speculating that the liberal wing offered to vote in favor of a "win" for Trump, in exchange for (i) a somewhat expedited oral argument for the immunity appeals and (ii) an opinion that does not require holding that Trump did not engage in an "insurrection" or that the president's "office" is not subject to disqualification under 14.3.
The fundamental issue I am having with the opinion is that it does not make sense. As Ilya wrote, the assertion that upholding Colorado meant conceding to the states the ability to decide for themselves whether Trump (or Biden) was "disqualified" under 14.3 was entirely question-begging. States would just be purporting to be applying a qualification requirement under the U.S. Constitution, so the Supreme Court would always be in the position of having a final say on whether it applies.
It also doesn't make sense to assert that 14.3 merely authorizes Congress to enact some kind of "disqualification" law. In effect, that would mean that those potentially subject to disqualification under 14.3 are the ones who get to decide whether it actually applies to them. It has to have some kind of "self-executing" effect, just like the other qualifications for holding office obviously do.
So - I can either believe, as Loki evidently does, that we have a Court of justices who obstinately refuse to fully agree to a unanimous opinion over shades of difference that don't much matter, or that the liberal wing agreed to a somewhat tortured rationale in order to back the conservatives off a more extreme holding that would constitutionally foreclose 14.3 disqualification for Trump and other insurrectionists and to ensure a fairer hearing on the immunity questions.
I’m speculating that the liberal wing offered to vote in favor of a “win” for Trump.
I think they were always going to vote for a win for Trump, at least on the Colorado question, and at least all but possibly Sotomayor.
in exchange for (i) a somewhat expedited oral argument for the immunity appeals
That seems a bit unethical of both sides to horse trade a merits decision for procedural advantage/disadvantage. And I see it as entirely implausible that either would make that trade, ethics question aside.
in exchange for...(ii) an opinion that does not require holding that Trump did not engage in an “insurrection” or that the president’s “office” is not subject to disqualification under 14.3.
I don't think there was a snowball's chance in hell there were ever five votes for either of those propositions. Alito, sure, he'd sign onto almost anything for his side. Thomas very possibly. Roberts wouldn't have and neither do I think Gorsuch or Kavanaugh would have gone for that. The arguments are just too weak. On the insurrection, they didn't have a record to say there wasn't an insurrection and on the offices, its just a bad argument.
The fundamental issue I am having with the opinion is that it does not make sense.
I agree. But I also think basically nobody really liked the vision of a world where each state made a different decision based on different procedures, standards of proof, etc. The Sotomayor 3-Justice bloc didn't like it any more than the conservatives, I suspect, but were willing to say what they said in concurrence to get to that result, despite there being no really strong reasoning to support that result other than the consequentialist argument: this would be bad, very bad because there are edge cases and state officials could be really flaky in the future.
I can either believe, as Loki evidently does, that we have a Court of justices who obstinately refuse to fully agree to a unanimous opinion over shades of difference that don’t much matter,
But the shades of difference do matter. The Sotomayor bloc kicked back against going any further than saying this wasn't a state issue, so Colorado loses. The majority went further and essentially said a conviction under 18 USC 2383 is currently the only way to invoke Section 3 wrt presidential candidates. That's not a small difference. Loki's idea of a (non-criminal) suit in federal court is, I think, foreclosed by the 5 justice per curiam opinion. If they had limited themselves to just saying Colorado couldn't do what they did, as the four concurring Justices advocated, that path could be explored, the arguments developed, and the Court would have to consider that. I suspect, the five cowardly Justices didn't want to do that, they just wanted to put the whole issue to bed and so, essentially, issued an advisory opinion on future federal challenges.
But, yes, maybe the concurrence wasn't a dissent because the majority was going to go further even than they did and say it wasn't an insurrection or something. They wanted the veneer of 9-0 unanimity, so they dropped that bridge too far. If I was to speculate.
But it's all speculation, I guess. I just pushback that there was very little difference between the two or that the concurring Justices didn't want the result, but traded away their votes for something else. I think they were fine with the result in this case. It wouldn't speak well of any of them if they weren't, but signed an opinion saying they were.
“I am not sure that they actually all agreed on the result.”
The only actual fact that we have is the final opinion. Which is agreement on the result. Which is what I addressed.
Heck, if you watched the oral arguments (which you just alluded to), the agreement isn’t surprising either.
So yeah, I am going to be pedantic. And, quite frankly, your response is exactly the type of unearned smugness that ignored what I have written and offers nothing substantive.
So … good for you, I guess? I’m assuming you had a point that was important to you, but other than making me pretty annoyed and ensuring that you are one comment from being blocked, you didn’t really advance any discussion, did you?
Again, I think I made my point clearly enough. You can engage with it, or not. I'm not going to respond to your continued condescension.
Buh bye!
Like I would have any interest in further engaging with someone who threatens to block me for being insufficiently deferential to them? You’re not harming me by not responding to my comments, you’re doing me a favor.
You, in contrast, will enjoy plenty of half conversations about your own comments.
Colorado has more spit sent their way in the past few years by the Supreme Court, and well-deserved it is.
Does this sound like people who care at all about the Constitution:
"Per the SCOTUS ruling: “As the record shows, some of the commissioners at the Commission’s formal, public hearings endorsed the view that religious beliefs cannot legitimately be carried into the public sphere or commercial domain, disparaged Phillips’ faith as despicable and characterized it as merely rhetorical, and compared his invocation of his sincerely held religious beliefs to defenses of slavery and the Holocaust. No commissioners objected to the comments.”
If the liberal wing think they can get anything substantive which would expose Trump to legal peril, they underestimate the determination of a Roberts majority driving for a presidential election win.
If the Court's Republicans wanted to promote a Republican win in the presidential election (and preserve their majority at the Court) they would not have ditched Roe v. Wade.
I sense they're focused on getting while the getting's good, then praying for miracles.
Which is nice.
ANother asshole non-analysis from a mind into which the filth of hate has leeched. NOBODY here , I bet , has any idea what ‘Getting while the getting’s good’ could possibly mean.
An analysis of what you say reduces only to :you think that even if 80 million want Trump that all those folks don’t know the Constitution.
That’s your usual stupid stance.
Bet you reject jury nullification too.And approve Alabama lawyers not enforcing the law that you don't like
In the spirit of being more generous toward the less fortunate among us, I will try to explain my analysis if you indicate which element(s) you did -- or did not -- understand.
I figure most readers apprehended my analysis. Even many of the Trump supporters. They skew dumb but might not be as dumb as you seem to believe.
Getting while the getting's good to me would mean if Biden win's the election (which the roe v wade decision obviously helps the D's based on every election since) that means if there is a vacancy on the Court it will be filled by Biden.
Replacing Clarence Thomas with a Biden appointee would change the balance a little bit, you would agree?
Calabreesi may hang himself if Thomas steps down and is replaced with a "liberal justice" - but thems the breaks.
I think one of the problems was that the minority relied on mere constitutional hand waving to reach their result:
“Allowing Colorado to do so would, we agree, create a chaotic state-by-state patchwork, at odds with our Nation’s federalism principles. That is enough to resolve this case.”
You could also say allowing Colorado to have its own s hook system creates a chaotic state by state patchwork, why doesn’t that violate our Nations federalism principles. Its not enough to resolve the case.
And:
“The contrary conclusion that a handful of officials in a few States could decide the Nation’s next President would be especially surprising with respect to Section 3. The Re construction Amendments “were specifically designed as an expansion of federal power and an intrusion on state sover eignty.”
What the majority does is tie its decision to a specific text of the constitution, which because the case is somewhat novel it is obliged to do:
“The respondents nonetheless maintain that States may enforce Section 3 against candidates for federal office. But the text of the Fourteenth Amendment, on its face, does not affirmatively delegate such a power to the States. The terms of the Amendment speak only to enforcement by Con gress, which enjoys power to enforce the Amendment through legislation pursuant to Section 5.”
That went too far for the minority that wanted a fuzzier resolution but tying it to section 5, didn’t only remove the question from the states but from the federal courts:
“So far as we can tell, they object only to our taking into ac count the distinctive way Section 3 works and the fact that Section 5 vests in Congress the power to enforce it.” (Italics in original)
The emphasis on Congress is critical to the minority, they want to allow judicial enforcement of section 3, independent of legislation:
"It forecloses judicial enforcement of that provision, such as might occur when a party is prosecuted by an insurrectionist and raises a defense on that score."
This "Colorado to have its own s hook system" was supposed to say "Colorado to have its own school system", I guess both I and spellchecker teamed up to mangle that.
Loki, let's ask you a question.
What's worse for an appearance of unity issue for the SCOTUS
1. A 9-0 decision here, with some disagreement in the scope of the opinion.
2a. A 9-0 decision here, with no disagreement of the scope of the opinion AND
2b. a 6-3 or 5-4 decision in September/October of 2024 which brings up the exact same issues as this case, but instead it's initially before a federal district court, and then appealed up to the SCOTUS, and the SCOTUS decides (by 6-3 or 5-4) on the same grounds as the per curium decision here.
I'd argue case 2 would be far more damaging for the "appearance of unity"
Similarly: Did Barrett really intend to join part I and the substantial part II-B but not the brief and mostly historical part II-A of the per curiam opinion? It won’t surprise me if the finalized version of her concurrence has a different statement about what parts she joins.
Well, arguably only section II-A specifically states that, "The Constitution empowers Congress to prescribe how those determinations should be made. The relevant provision is Section 5, which enables Congress, subject of course to judicial review, to pass “appropriate legislation” to “enforce” the Fourteenth Amendment."
Section II-B is specifically about the states. Now, in saying that, there is the section that specifically references, inter alia, City of Boerne and section 5 (see Op. at 10-11), but it does so in a section discussing state limitations. In other words, it is a somewhat gratuitous addition to II-A but in the context of the states.
Whether that was inserted afterwards or not is an open question. Obviously, looking at that particular paragraph now does make it seem ... odd.
Adler, thank you for that. I had been struggling to make sense of some of what I read. You seem to have zeroed in on exactly the parts which troubled me.
I had concluded that the drafting process must have surfaced among the majority some reasoning or tendencies to make members of the minority concerned that the former pressed to include aggressive support for Trump. Possibly with intent to block any legal interference, including even by Justice Department prosecutions.
The opinions which came out did not show that, but by context seemed to imply evidence for it. So a mystery.
For now, I take it that the Justice Department cases are sailing through a region of stormy headwinds, and unlikely to make port in time to deliver what the nation needs. It opens a question of what response, legal, political, or otherwise, could prove useful to protect American constitutionalism from such an evidently grave threat.
"It opens a question of what response, legal, political, or otherwise, could prove useful to protect American constitutionalism from such an evidently grave threat."
Is calling for violence against political opponents allowed here now?
I apologize and withdraw my remark, I guess. I should have known, but forgot, that if you say, "otherwise," the right-wing mind leaps only to violence. As often happens, I could not think of anything specific to add, but supposed I must have missed something. I intended to challenge others to think of alternatives I could not.
You often miss things by my reading. How can you say that if the Court wrongly decided then the maybe 74 million voters were all either unaware of the Constitution or knowingly voted for someone that the Law forbids to run. NONSENSE. your typical nonsense.
A vote for Trump MUST mean logically that they do NOT think it illegal for him to run. Really, think a little
"the right-wing mind leaps only to violence"
You said America needed to be protected from a grave threat and you explicitly stated the necessary response would be neither political nor legal. What the hell else is there?
Kleppe. Violence. QED. “What the hell else is there.”
I was looking for suggestions. Got any, except violence?
Also, stop making careless accusations. I know you were not lying on purpose. But go back and re-read what I wrote above, the sentence that led you to assert I ruled out legal and political action and demanded violence.
What the hell, to make it easy on bystanders, here is what Kleppe said I said, followed right below by what I actually did say:
Kleppe:
“. . . you explicitly stated the necessary response would be neither political nor legal.”
Me:
“It opens a question of what response, legal, political, or otherwise, could prove useful to protect American constitutionalism from such an evidently grave threat.”
Kleppe, please apologize, and acknowledge I did not advocate violence.
Darling, have you seen Dr. Ed's posts? Brett has also regularly intimated that violence may be necessary to achieve his political preferences, as well as plenty of MAGA no-names that pop up through here all the time. Never mind the Reason main page commenters.
"Darling, have you seen Dr. Ed’s posts?"
I, too, enjoy reading alternate histories of Maine and Massachusetts that don't quite match up with the real world.
Dr. Ed’s comments saying “X Y Z” are more valuable than his critics who usually storm in with something like “ackchyually it’s W X Y Ž!!!” Especially the critics who engage in their own flights of fancy.
You know you've devolved into incoherence when you are defending Dr. Ed's violence and fantasy riddled screeds.
I feel like you didn't used to be like this, Michael P.
"I feel like you didn’t used to be like this, Michael P."
Objection.
Assumes facts VERY MUCH not in evidence.
Maybe this was a "good ole days" effect, where I obviously just imagined things were better when, in fact, they maybe were even worse.
Well, in fairness I don't remember him from the "good ole days."
That said, I do remember that there are several commenters that are here now that used to be mostly tolerable, but over the past decade have slid into ... let's just say completely unhinged territory.
There was a time when there were strident disagreements over most issues, but generally the majority of commenters would react to the true loonies ("The Ace," or "Mick") with a unified front. Now ... eh, not so much.
The USAF has an expression: "If they are shooting at you, it means you are over the target."
My high school teacher had an expression, "If you keep failing your tests, next time try and learn the material instead of just bullshitting and seeing how it turns out."
A Dr. Ed ditto head! That is pretty stunning
Simon, did you read what I wrote about ACB's piece?
And it is the LEFT which instigates all of the actual violence -- If BLM and ANTIFA had stormed the Capitol on Jan 6th, we would be talking about building a new one right now.
And while I haven't said it before, I will now -- it was the LEFT who shot the Congressmen, it was the LEFT who bombed the building, and it was the LEFT who shot up the CongressCritter Softball Team.
With the exception of Oklahoma City, it's the left that actually does stuff, and I'm not convinced that McVey acted alone. If only we could interrogate him....
The last thing this nation needs is more DOJ republic ending lawfare. If you don’t like President Trump, don’t vote for him. Why is the left so afraid of elections?
"The left" loves elections. They're just concerned about potentially electing a guy who doesn't believe you have to abide by their results.
"The right" is the one interested in cancelling elections. Why do you think Trump wants Ronna McDaniel out of the RNC? She's let these primaries go on too long, and didn't declare them over after Iowa.
I disagree with your characterization of President Trump. But the point of the democrat lawfare is to deprive the public of the opportunity to vote for him. Seems like you’re pretty afraid of elections. Like I wrote above, if you don’t support him, don’t vote for him.
Do you similarly oppose the House's attempt to impeach Biden?
Did you similarly oppose the two impeachments of Trump?
Or are only Biden impeachments signs of trying to remove a voter choice?
With no basis for a Biden impeachment which is having trouble getting a unified vote from House Republicans, versus enough basis in the Trump impeachments to get Republican votes in the Senate? Yes, one of these things is not like the others.
The Biden impeachment attempt is just to muddy the waters with a dose of both-sides; they can have no expectation that Biden would be removed or disqualified from office, or even that they have anything to rebuke him for.
I am not the one who is complaining about "lawfare".
Personally, I favour an evidence-based approach. YMMV. But I'll answer your question after Riva answers mine.
See below. Impeachment is a constitutional remedy. Lawfare is not.
That isn't lawfare. Lawfare is the abuse of the civil and criminal law by democrats to target political opponents.
Your take is ‘legal actions are Constitutional and good if they are done by the right, and lawfare and bad when they are done against the right.’
It, like all of your comments here, is nothing more than you taking the MAGA side, and pretending that’s an argument.
People tried that in 2020 and he refused to accept that it had happened, instead trying to violently stay in power.
I think the election takes place this year, 2024. But if you think it’s 2020, you’re welcome to your view.
I take it you've already got your plans ready for January 2025 - It will be wild!
Looking forward to the tears and cries of desolation when President Trump is sworn in. If it’s not too much trouble, would you mind recording your inaugural day tantrum?
In fairness, the recording of those tantrums will result in a LOT less prison time than the recording of Trump's supporters if he loses.
Trump has repeatedly stated that he would only accept election results if he wins, in 2016 and in 2020 when he demonstrated that he wasn't joking. No reason to expect 2024 will be any different.
And if you think Trump has switched his selfish, delusional, petulant, lying, un-American, cheating, boorish, sore loser spots, you might be a ready-for-replacement clinger who feels at home at this white, male, disaffected, right-wing blog.
If you truly believe this, seek mental health resources. The need is urgent.
I disagree with your characterization of President Trump.
Yes, because you're a total fucking moron. President Trump is on record calling for the primaries to be cut short, and have him declared the winner. He's also known to be unhappy with Ronna McDaniel, which is hard to square with the sycophantic way she has shaped the RNC to favor his nomination. The main apparent purpose of the planned leadership change is to make the RNC even more squarely an arm of the Trump campaign.
I'm not afraid of elections. I was never a fan of this "disqualification" argument, which was motivated initially by Republican never-Trumpers who saw no other path to blocking his nomination. As has been said, repeatedly, the best possible Republican candidate for Biden to run against is someone as old as he is, with a record of failure and chaos in the White House, a fundamental and profound lack of discipline and intelligence, an overwhelming selfishness and penchant for rampant corruption (and, apparently, drug use), and on and on and on.
Democrats are happy to run against him. It's the best shot we have to win in November. It's just that the left also believes that Trump poses such an existential threat to the country that we would prefer to lose in November in a free and fair election to a "normal" Republican candidate, than to take that chance.
Anyone with half a brain would agree.
"Democrats are happy to run against him."
Dem reactions to yesterday's ruling say otherwise.
Some Democrats are bothered by the risk of another Trump debacle, but most Democrats seem to figure Trump is a weak choice for the Republicans.
Democrats have been kicking plenty of Republican ass at the polls during the period of Trump's relevance.
Why risk it?
https://constitutioncenter.org/education/classroom-resource-library/classroom/perspectives-on-the-constitution-a-republic-if-you-can-keep-it
Because half-educated, bigoted, obsolete, mostly worthless Republicans -- even Federalist Society members -- get to vote, too.
Unless they get convicted of crimes for work with Trump Litigation: Elite Strike Force, in which case maybe not.
Yes, and they get to vote for whichever eligible candidate they like.
SimonP, I must have half a brain. I am in complete agreement with your penultimate paragraph.
No, democrats are not happy to run against President Trump. If they were, they wouldn’t be engaging in all this repulsive lawfare to keep him off the ballot. In fact, your side seems to be rather afraid of a free and fair election. Man up, put on your face diaper and go vote instead of supporting this lawfare abuse.
Riva, you're just boring at this point. I don't even care to respond to this trolling drivel, it's just more of the same from you, not even the slightest clue that there might be a human brain at work on your end of the exchange.
There is no such person as "President Trump."
I think you know it’s a common courtesy to use the title when referring to former presidents but you just can’t resist being obnoxious. You should try to work on that in your next TDS therapy session.
I will believe that as soon as you show a history of referring to prior Presidents with the same honorific.
I'm sure you can point us to your multiple prior comments that refer to (former) President Obama!
Never posted a comment on him, but since I never voted for him, opposed his polices, and generally found his strawman evasions really irritating, I probably wouldn't employ the courtesy if I had. Not because the courtesy isn't common practice, but because of, well, just not respecting him. Same goes for Clinton. And to be honest pretty much all modern democrats.
So, what you acknowledge is that you just make this up. That's definitely a first step.
Just so you know, it's not protocol. And if you're only applying it to people you like, then that's just ... well, that's just you being weird.
Carry on!
It is not, in fact. Protocol is that former presidents are not referred to as president. I would post a bunch of links, but Reason will eat the comment if I do, so I'll just post a link to a tweet where I previously posted those links:
https://x.com/dnieporent/status/1744279951887450454?s=20
There's only one president, and that's the current one.
You are completely full of it. WTF do you mean it’s protocol? I don’t know who your reference is, don’t care, but we’re not talking about an official diplomatic gathering. It is and always has been the courtesy in common practice. It doesn’t mean the person you are addressing is the sitting president super genius. And even at an official proceeding, I expect that practice is also observed more often than not.
Did I stutter? Was that too big a word for you?
I know; you're a Trumpkin. Reading and thinking and stuff isn't for you.
Two of the three links in my link were not about official diplomatic gatherings.
It isn't and hasn't. It's not a title of nobility. It's a job. When you don't have the job, you don't have the title.
President and Vice President are unique titles; ex-Presidents who aren't pompous asses revert to previous titles that do persist. Eisenhower was General Eisenhower again after leaving office. One of David Nieporent's links is to a Miss Manners column from 1992 where someone asked about people referring to President Nixon; it's not something that was invented just because of Trump.
I agree to not using a title that is in the past without the 'former' preface. It's sickening to here the constant regurgitation of using past titles. The elected are just people, not anything else !
As to the current president, We do not have a legitimate occupant at 1600, since that person has already stated clearly and validly to being garnered by illegitimate means:
"We have assembled the most extensive and inclusive voter fraud organization in the history of the United States" Joe Biden 2020
I would bother explaining, but you either know where this statement is from and don't care, or are so gullible that you are repeating it without understanding the context, which is easily and readily available just by googling. Takes three seconds.
Either way, not a good look.
I have mentioned this to him before (possibly more than once), without any acknowledgement from him, positive or negative.
But it's possible that he is simply unaware how stupid his comment makes him look.
This may come as something of a surprise to President Obama.
Look, I'm perfectly fine with not using such honorifics, maybe even prefer it. I've been in other circles where it's considered sheer politeness to refer to President Clinton, and I have.
But it comes off as partisan hackery when deployed this way, towards people you disdain. Because you may recognize that Trump supporters (of which I am not one) like to use it as a double dig satisfying their stolen election nonsense.
Gape-jawed Republicans like to refer to "Democrat senators" and "Democrat Party." They also refer to former Pres. Trump as "President Trump" or "POTUS Trump."
I ascribe these downscale affectations partly to conservatives' illiteracy, partly to right-wingers' disaffectedness, partly to a Republican desire to flash middle fingers at their betters.
Carry on, clingers. So far as better Americans permit.
How would you know what President Trump supporters think? I doubt that you're telepathic (because no one is). What you seem to be is biased against President Trump's supporters and so ascribe to them some sort of ill motive.
Trick question: they don't.
Here is a bit of lore which might edify in some slight way:
I one time asked U.S. Secretary of the Interior Cecil Andrus why he went by, “Governor Andrus.” He explained that the custom in those days was to call a person in public life by the highest title he had ever been elected to. His stint as Governor of Idaho thus outranked his appointment as a U.S. cabinet secretary.
If that custom were better followed today, it would indeed be, “President Trump,” but the repugnancy of the thing would undoubtedly kill the custom for good.
Here is another Miss Manners column, from 2006, explaining that President, like other unique titles, is different from titles like Governor.
Heh; "trumpet it". I see what you did there, time traveling Miss Manners.
And it wouldn't have anything to do with the fact that her name really is Ronna ROMNY McDaniel and she is tied to someone named Mitt Romney -- maybe you've heard of him?
FDR did the same thing -- he just did it quicker than Trump is.
Trump long ago forced Ronna McDaniel to ditch the Romney name.
What same thing did FDR do more quickly? Franklin Roosevelt was the target of an attempted coup, not the author of one. Also didn't get impeached. Also didn't lose a presidential election. Also not indicted for multiple felonies. Also did not run a sham charity.
Now that is logical. Only the second plaudit I've given on here in months.
Suppose that a state’s legislature appointed the presidential electors directly, with standard pledging, but the state’s voters passed a ballot proposition imposing restrictions on what candidates the state’s legislature could select.
Would the state, through its citizen-voters, be prohibited from interfering with the state legislature’s freedom of action to vote for whomever the legislators please? It’s still a federal election no matter who appoints the electors.
If the state’s voters managed to pass a ballot proposition in the middle of the election cycle mandating that whatever electors the legislature appoints, the state’s electors shall nonetheless be pledged to and shall vote for John Doe, would that ballot proposition be struck down as unconstitutional state interference with a federal election once the campaign has gotten underway?
Supposed the voters passed a ballot proposition saying that the legislature is not permitted to pledge electors to Donald J. Trump because the voters think he is an insurrectionist, but remain otherwise free to cast the state’s support to whomever they please. Would that be unconstitutional interference with a federal election?
Under the current ruling, I think those propositions would indeed be struck down as unconstitutional.
I think it's very clear that the Court would say that the answer is yes.
It would not be an 'eleciton' period as it short-circuits a vote no less than tossing an uncounted ballot in the trash does.
OK. So it’s a manner of appointing electors, and it’s not an election. So it’s constitutional?
Has it been a good week for Trump?
He managed to stay on the Colorado ballot (and, likely, others) but so far as I am aware no one has accepted his invitation to absolve him of insurrection, un-American conduct, or criminal conduct with respect to election subversion and sending a violent mob to the Capitol to impede the electoral process.
His longtime financial executive pleaded guilty -- again -- and seems to be headed back to jail. At some point, this elderly jailbird might conclude that civic duty, the truth, and self-preservation are more important than other considerations.
Two more lawyers from Trump Litigation: Elite Strike Force saved their skins, to some degree, by providing plenty of evidence concerning Trump's fake electors scheming.
He is one day closer to judgment (judgment creditor) day with respect to the $88-odd million he owes to the woman he sexually assaulted and repeatedly defamed by lying about her and to the half-billion or so he owes to the State of New York for business fraud.
He lost to Nikki Haley in the District of Columbia, suggesting that educated voters, including Republicans, are disinclined to vote for him.
He may be headed toward an autumn trial that could adjudge him an un-American criminal before the election and would likely cause him to spend his days in a criminal courtroom in the months preceding that election. (He'd be free to campaign during evenings, of course, if he could muster the stamina for it.)
Good week? And it's only Tuesday.
How many votes was that tidal wave of victory in DC?
Enough to indicate that Trump's base consists of half-educated, bigoted, superstitious culture war write-offs.
Keep it up, people like you make sure HIllary never sees Washington again. I remember a national disaster in my area when she was running. I live in an area she has mocked as religious and bigoted so she didn’t visit at all, went to a Barbara Streisand party. But Trump was here and many were cheered out of a great depressing tragedy.
You wouldn’t life a finger to help a horrible suffering half-educated either. You would blame them for their misfortune.Many on here hate you with good cause.
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These are your peeps, Volokh Conspirators. And the reason your colleagues on strong, mainstream faculties hope you follow your leader's lead and leave campus soon.
Don't believe me? Tell them -- choose the ones you consider your best friends on the faculty -- you are thinking of leaving and watch their reactions.
I see that math is also a problem for you.
People concerned with "appearance of full unity" should look to the left side of the court exclusively. They wanted to keep the door open to post-election attempts to deny a Trump election, you know, to save democracy by destroying it.
So the constitutional amendment is not necessarily un-constitutional, but simply not enforceable. Suppose a 30 year old cult leader captured the attention of the evangelical right and 2A fetishists like Donald Trump has and had enough activists to get him on the state ballot, although clearly not eligible due to the age restriction. The state, since they are not the federal government, not only has him on the ballot but has to certify his win.
Oh, and the congress is sufficiently cowed by the political and physical threat of the voter base to refuse to enforce anything. They kiss the ring and we elect an ineligible president.
Makes sense.
No theory about this opinion makes more sense to me that the "liberal wing" made a deal. OK we will give you this win but you have to be sane on the immunity case.
It's already enforceable. Get a conviction under S2383 (insurrection) and Trump would be ineligible.
Why no one is willing to do that? Just a mystery.
Get a conviction under S2383 (insurrection) and Trump would be ineligible.
Would he be? Where does the judgment say that?
Page 10
The reference on page 10 is a nice example of "retweets are not endorsements". The opinion describes the history of Congressional action with respect to insurrectionists, but doesn't endorse any of them. I'm sure if the matter arose, Trumpists would have a field day arguing that 18 USC §2383 was not enacted under section 5, and therefore doesn't meet the requirements of Trump v. Anderson. And nothing in the judgment resolves that question one way or another.
Dafuq? I don't know what "Trumpists" would do, and I wasn't talking about them.
OM said A14S3 was unenforceable, and the SC said it is and listed S2383 as one of the ways Congress has enforced it and specifically saying that S2383 is still on the books.
The only limiting factor to DQing Trump is someone's willingness to bring the S2383 case.
And as I pointed out a case under 18 USC §2383 is neither necessary nor sufficient to disqualify Trump under the majority's holding. It's not necessary because there are other ways of disqualifying someone. Quoth Lederman:
And a criminal prosecution is not sufficient because, like I said, the Supreme Court, when that day comes, might not agree that 18 USC §2383 is a sound legal basis for disqualifying someone. Given that Congress didn't say all of the magic words when adopting it, it may not count.
Thanks for quoting someone who was completely wrong about the decision, and then following it up with some groundless speculation.
Why so opposed to just bringing the S2383 case?
If I understand what Lederman wrote, the only other way besides §2383 is on Jan 6 per the ECRA. But, as Lederman noted:
So as a practical matter, isn't §2383 necessary.
S2383 just seems so obviously the right mechanism for getting the insurrection DQ that everyone seems to want (right crime, right punishment).
Lederman is wanting some other possible way to do it, but why so much effort to force some other law into service when S2383 is just sitting right there waiting to be used?
If Trump were convicted of violating § 2383, his supporters would not agree that he was disqualified. They would then trot out the "officer of" bullshit, the "officer under" bullshit, the didn't-take-an-oath-to-support-the-constitution bullshit, and whatever other bullshit Blackman and his ilk could come up with.
It's true. Some law profs and other randos might still have objections to a S2383 DQ. I can't help them all.
A S2383 conviction is still the most on-target method for an insurrection DQ. The SC called it out in the Trump v. Anderson PC as an implementation of A14S3.
And still the method where it's so damn hard to get people rooting for a DQ to say, yeah, we should prosecute Trump under S2383.
Well I kind of agree the Supreme Court should.have decided those questions too.
Although Tillman points out on his blog that since the Supreme Court reversed the Colorado Supreme court, that reinstated the Colorado district court opinion holding that Trump was not an officer.
I'm skeptical of that, but he knows more than I do.
https://reformclub.blogspot.com/2024/03/the-law-of-case-trump-v-anderson.html
Why does it matter whether Trump supporters would agree he's disqualified, were he convicted of criminal insurrection? Just like it didn't matter that Trump haters thought he was obviously disqualified properly by the Colorado secretary of state.
The law is not some existential crisis, dependent on the beliefs of particular observers for its existence.
@Kazinski, Tillman thinking the not-an-officer holding is still valid is just wish-casting. SCOTUS blew up any reason for the trial court to have even heard the case, it's not precedential for anything and no one who didn't already believe it would be persuaded.
Not only is that wrong as a procedural matter, but who cares? Such a finding would be binding on nobody.
Well if Tillman were right that would mean the finding of fact that Trump was an insurrectionist would still be a valid finding.
Be hard to do that, Mitchell, Trump's lawyer, conceded 2383 applied (reserving two unresolved questions, immunity and whether the President is an "officer of or under").
No, it isn't , not legally. The mystery is why no one is willing doesn't penetrate your law-free mind.
"[Sidenote: Who thinks to check metadata by double-clicking random parts of an opinion or searching for ghost text?]"
*facepalm*
Competent lawyers scrub metadata before sending out documents, where appropriate if not routinely.
That wasn't the question. The question was who thinks to check Supreme Court opinions for metadata.
I know, and I don’t disagree with the sentiment. But I have another sentiment too, and that is mild surprise that SCOTUS doesn’t scrub metadata from their documents. It is entirely foreseeable that someone would check for metadata by whatever method.
And then you have the seeming inconsistencies in the actual written text – same thing, I would have thought the justices and their clerks would have things a bit more polished even when there’s a time crunch.
Which I suppose raises a question of whether any of the foregoing was intentional. But overall, all of this is probably just making mountains out of speculative molehills.
There's a lot of handwringing (rightly so!) about the legitimacy of the SCOTUS, and in the golden age of the conspiracy theory, there are lots of explanations that favor the nefarious, devious, and secretive. But examples like this make me wonder if it's more Grey Gardens over there than Something Sinister.
Marty Lederman on Balkinization:
https://balkin.blogspot.com/2024/03/whats-dividing-justices-and-other.html
Martinned, with the further qualifier that if the speculation you mention is correct, there is implication down the road that whatever per curiam stringencies provoked the odd-looking concurrence, they will re-emerge as-needed in any future judgment by the per curiam voters.
The worst news in this opinion is that both Roberts and Kavanaugh apparently counted themselves in agreement with a pro-Trump decision even Barrett could not stomach. That, plus the record that Roberts has never in his career voted for a decision that could effectually award systemic electoral advantage to a Democrat. Which means to me that Trump is likely home free legally, despite his crimes.
As a practical matter, with this Court, Trump is above the law. I say it in profound hope that the future will prove me wrong. It will be truly awful if a legitimate Democratic victory in November can only be vindicated by willingness to order extreme military force. I find it staggering to contemplate that this Court is willing to expose this nation to that risk.
I think page 5 plus the sentence in the closing does say what the minority claims:
"So far as we can tell, [the minority] object only to our taking into account the distinctive way Section 3 works and the fact that Section 5 vests in Congress the power to enforce it. (emphasis in original).
Of course 2383 gets you there, it "does prescrib[e] the procedures to ‘“‘ascertain[] what particular individuals’”’ should be disqualified”
But nobody actually thinks Trump could be convicted of Insurrection under 2383 so that explains consternation.
So as the minority states Congress must
The fact that the “Per Curiam” opinion refers to “the majority” itself seems to me to make this a 6-3 opinion, not a PC opinion.
The only other other time I remember a separate concurrence to a PC opinion was Caetano v Mass, Alito wrote a concurrence. But as I recall it was styled as “I write separately to note”, and did not level accusations at the PC opinion.
Yes, the concurrence reads like a dissent.
Oh, and yes, Sotomayor is “strident.” The fact that they issued the concurrence at all makes them strident. I am a little surprised Kagan and Jackson signed on, but maybe they felt obliged to support their elderly tired justice-mate.
Edit: the concurrence also it says “five Justices go on.” – which makes me think 1) a PC opinion requires a 6 vote majority; 2) they changed it so Barrett signed on. But maybe not the Strident 3?
"The fact that the “Per Curiam” opinion refers to 'the majority' itself seems to me to make this a 6-3 opinion, not a PC opinion."
It's not a 6-3 opinion. It's a 5-4 opinion, or a 5-1-3 opinion.
"Oh, and yes, Sotomayor is “strident.” The fact that they issued the concurrence at all makes them strident. I am a little surprised Kagan and Jackson signed on, "
No, it's not really strident. It is just saying what Barrett says, albeit more forcefully. That said, I think that this is the result of some desire to quickly post it ... I have the belief (albeit without any facts to back it up) that the original Solo-yahor opinion (heh) was likely toned down prior to publication with the addition of Kagan and Jackson.
I think that this is why things seem so disjointed- I think that all the opinions are referring to things that may have been edited or removed just prior to publication.
ok, so arithmetic: 5-4 for II A (chase, section 5); 9-0 for II-B; and 3 people dissented with II-B, while Barret says they didn't need to reach it?
How, then is this a PC opinion?
PC just means that it is for the court.
There were no dissents.
Barrett concurred in the judgment and Parts I and II-B.
Sotomayor, Kagan, and Jackson concurred in the judgment (and specifically concurred that an individual state may not individually decide the qualifications for a Presidential candidate under section 3).
(So, technically, 6-3 for I, 6-3 for II-B, 5-4 for II-A, and 9-0 for the judgment).
The simplest insight is that a minority vote to prevent a majority vote can't be legal in any universe. The law belchings are all over the place, so that no one is unaware of claims of illegality and/or unconstitionality ERGO if someone votes for Trump that ipso facto means they don't agree. QED
Wow.
At no point in your rambling, incoherent response were you even close to anything that could be considered a rational thought. Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.
Writing "oathbreaking insurrectionist" six (6) times is STRIDENT.
Counting isn't your strong suit, is it? 🙂
Also, you probably don't understand that (1) the phrase isn't being applied to a particular person (as it can't be given the question under review) and (2) the actual issue presented required that formulation.
Seriously, just think about it for more than half a second. Why do you think it's not just insurrectionist, but oathbreaking insurrectionist?
Oh, never mind. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make the horse understand the legal implications of riparian rights.
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Does that assessment also apply to Justice Barrett, or do you recognize a handmaiden exception (because Jesus, or because Trump)?
David French suggests that the Supreme Court’s right-wing majority has written a second element out of the Constitution.
Should that conservative approach to interpretation be filed under originalism, textualism, or futile partisanship?
"david French" "suggests" and you are to cowardly to say YEA or NAY --and that constitutes an approach !!!
That's just "how about you and him fight"
At least stop being a coward , okay 🙂
Loki and Simon snipping at each other is the best! Its a smug-off!
“snipping”
LOL, good one Bob.
I have seldom felt the need to respond to any of his comments, and now I regret doing so. What a pompous ass.
As for you, Bobby, here's the "go fuck yourself" you've been missing from me today.
Irrelevant comment: did anyone else with Chinese associates pronounce Xitter as something like zjshjitter in their internal voice?
There aren't any good options, it's either your pinyin-inspired pronunciation or something that sounds like a new acne cream.
Only one pronunciation fits the platform like a glove.