The Volokh Conspiracy
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Increased Voter Turnout Now Benefits Republicans
Survey data shows relatively infrequent voters are significantly more likely to support the Trump-era GOP than those who vote more often. Will this change traditional left and right-wing attitudes towards mandatory voting and other policies intended to increase turnout?

Traditionally, Democrats and progressives have been sympathetic to policies intended to increase voter turnout, while conservative Republicans have been highly skeptical. Advocates of the most extreme such policy - mandatory voting - have also mostly been on the left. Most notably, then-president Barack Obama endorsed the idea back in 2015.
Both sides in this debate cite high-minded, nonpartisan rationales for their positions. For example, supporters of mandatory voting traditionally argue that voting is a civic duty. Opponents contend that it infringes individual liberty. But cynics have long wondered whether the real motive was partisan gain: perhaps liberal Democrats supported efforts to increase turnout because it would help them win, while conservative Republicans opposed them for the very same reason.
There was disagreement among scholars about the extent to which increased turnout really helped Democrats. The effect probably wasn't as great as many partisans imagined. Still, conventional political wisdom held that increased turnout at least benefited the political left at the margin.
Recent polling trends may put both cynical and idealistic explanations for these views to the test. In the Trump era, it is increasingly Republican candidates - especially Trump himself - who stand to benefit from higher turnout.
Dan Hopkins recently summarized some of these trends at the 538 website, in an article entitled "The Less You Vote, the More You Back Trump":
In 2016, former President Donald Trump was a political outsider looking to win the GOP nomination for president. In part, his campaign sought to appeal to voters who were disenchanted with politics.
Despite that, though, Trump wasn't significantly more popular with infrequent voters than with consistent voters….
Between Feb. 20 and March 18, 2024,* Gall Sigler and I oversaw a survey, fielded by NORC, of 2,462 English- and Spanish-speaking adults living in the U.S. According to public records, 63 percent of our respondents who reported being U.S. citizens turned out to vote in 2020…
And when we broke out respondents by their voting history, we found dramatic differences in whom they support for president in 2024. President Joe Biden performed much better among frequent voters, while Trump had a large lead among people who haven't voted recently. Specifically, among respondents who voted in the 2018, 2020 and 2022 general elections, Biden outpaced Trump 50 percent to 39 percent. But among respondents who were old enough to vote but voted in none of those three elections, Trump crushed Biden 44 percent to 26 percent.
Hopkins goes on to note that this pattern helps explain why the Democrats did relatively better in the comparatively lower-turnout off-year elections of 2018 and 2022 than in the presidential election year of 2020.
One obvious explanation for Democrats' newfound advantage among more frequent voters is the rise of the "diploma gap" under which voters - especially whites - with higher levels of education have become more likely to support Democrats, while lesser-educated voters have moved in the opposite direction. Education is highly correlated with voter turnout, with more educated citizens being much more likely to vote.
Perhaps the diploma gap - and resulting partisan turnout differences - will diminish or disappear. But if it persists, it will be interesting to see if intellectuals' and political activists attitudes towards turnout will switch. Will Republicans become advocates of increasing turnout, or even embrace mandatory voting? Will Democrats become more skeptical of such measures? Time will tell.
I myself have long been skeptical of the value of increasing turnout, and am also a longtime opponent of mandatory voting (see, e.g., here, here, and here). I think most people do not have a duty to vote, even in high-stakes elections. And I have argued that relatively ignorant citizens can often do more good by abstaining from voting than by casting poorly informed votes (though I am also skeptical of arguments that government should try to weed out ignorant voters, primarily because I doubt that it can be trusted to do so in an unbiased way). The latter skepticism also makes me wary of "epistocracy."
In addition to libertarian objections to the coercion inherent in mandatory voting, my main reason for these stances is that nonvoters and infrequent voters tend to be even more ignorant about government and public policy than those who vote more often. Thus, major increases in turnout are likely to exacerbate the already severe problem of political ignorance. Mandatory voting would be even worse. I held those views back when increased turnout was generally believed to benefit Democrats, and I continue to hold them today.
It isn't just that a more ignorant electorate is likely to make worse choices among the options before them. It is that those options are likely to be worse to begin with. Parties facing a relatively ignorant election are likely to select lower-quality candidates and policies than those facing a more knowledgeable one. I describe the logic behind this more fully in my book Democracy and Political Ignorance.
This connection between voter knowledge and relatively good policy outcomes is not an iron law. In Chapter 2 of my book, I go over some scenarios where voter ignorance can actually be beneficial. But I also explain why such situations are likely to be unusual.
You might still support increased turnout or mandatory voting if you believe political ignorance doesn't matter much; for example, some scholars argue ignorant voters can use "information shortcuts" to make good decisions, or that "miracles of aggregation" lead the electorate to make good aggregate judgments even if most individual voters know very little.
I am a longtime critic of such voter-knowledge optimism, for reasons discussed in detail in Chapter 4 of Democracy and Political Ignorance. On that score, I notice greater sympathy for my pessimism among left-liberals since the rise of Trump, than before. At the very least, it may be hard for people on the left to praise higher turnout and dismiss concerns about voter knowledge in a world where less-frequent and more ignorant voters tend to back candidates like Trump, whose agenda left-wingers believe (often for good reason!) to be horrendously awful.
By contrast, right-wing intellectuals and activists sympathetic to Trumpism might potentially become advocates of policies that boost turnout, or even mandatory voting. They could also downplay or dismiss concerns about ignorance, perhaps by adopting traditionally left-wing shortcut and miracle of aggregation arguments. The latter might be a natural extension of the MAGA right's embrace of populism. I think we already see some elements of this in the right's tendency to dismiss the dangers of political misinformation.
I am far from sure that the right and left will completely switch sides on issues related to voter turnout. Long-held attitudes may be "sticky." But I would not be surprised to see at least some significant movement in that direction.
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If this is true than science and the media will suddenly discover that get out the vote is a russian/insurrectionist plot.
I'm thinking I'm hardly alone in respecting the wisdom of crowds a lot more when they agree with me.
Every liberal I know thinks that increased voter participation is a net positive. So far, in 2024, not a single one of them has changed position.
Maybe I'm lucky in that I know only liberals who are not flaming hypocrites. But I doubt that...I think that this is indeed one of those "sticky" issues where people on the Left will keep their "mo-voters-mo-good" position. And, I presume, most on the Right will keep their "fewer-voters-is-better" position.
I think there's what they say...and what they actually do.
It's a nice platitude...but you'll find when push comes to shove, they want increased voter turnout in certain areas. And in other areas, they don't really care about increasing voter turnout.
Even if that's true it's still better than actively making it harder to vote.
Doing away with all regulations will make utilizing the Second Amendment far easier. But I bet you are not seeking to make rights you dislike easier to use.
Somewhere under that nonsense there is a valid point:
The 2nd amendment codifies a right whose exercise has clear adverse consequences for the rights of others. Arguably the 1st amendment does too but, say, the cruel and unusual punishment clause does not.
What kind of right is the right to vote? It's clearly more than a right to self-determination. Voting is an exercise of power over others. But does that make it analogous to the 2nd amendment, where the right of the government to regulate the exercise of the right is obvious (and included in the text of that amendment for that reason)? The right to vote is already regulated, e.g. by denying it to minors, the same minors who typically also can't buy a gun. But does that analogy work? Or is the right to participate in the democratic process categorically different than the rights of the bill of rights?
"The 2nd amendment codifies a right whose exercise has clear adverse consequences for the rights of others."
Bullshit. Utter and complete bullshit, in an easily identifiable way.
Everything I might do with a gun that actually wrongfully harms somebody is already a crime, and unprotected by the 2nd amendment. And thus is not an exercise of the right.
What you mean, I think, is that people can USE guns to impose adverse consequences on others. Which is true. But is there anything that's NOT true of? Freedom of religion and Jonestown? Freedom of speech and defamation? Freedom of travel and kidnapping? Is there any action which is protected as a right that can't be wrongfully used to harm another? No, there isn't. The fact that I have a hand implies that I can punch people, should you cut them off?
Now, you might argue that the existence of the right makes it harder to stop gun crime, and that I will readily concede. A bit, sure. Darned, but liberty is inconvenient for the police.
You know what they call a country arranged for the convenience of the police? A police state.
Everything I might do with a gun that actually wrongfully harms somebody is already a crime, and unprotected by the 2nd amendment. And thus is not an exercise of the right.
That's just the kind of contortion you have to wring yourself into in order to avoid the question of whether the government may set limits on how certain rights are exercised. In newer constitutions, there is usually an explicit framework for doing that. The reality of the matter is that you have a right to keep and bear arms, and if that right wasn't regulated the rights of other people (including most obviously their right to life) would be violated. Which is why the state has adopted all sorts of laws that govern *how* you may or may not keep and bear your arms. But the ability of the state is not unlimited, otherwise there would be no point in having a constitutional right in the first place.
but, say, the cruel and unusual punishment clause does not
Au contraire. Lots of burglars might be more deterred by the threat of an amputation than they would be by a jail sentence.
Fair enough
So you dislike the right to vote?
I like it a lot. Which is why I seek to actually protect it as the valuable right that it is.
Sorry, a photo ID is not an inconvenience to vote.
I agree, as long as at least one form of photo ID is available free of charge. (Including not being required to travel 200 miles to some inconvenient office where you can get one.)
Personally I'd be OK with requiring a form of ID that is available at (more or less) cost, but I'd argue that unless at least one acceptable form of ID is available free of charge, you'd run into trouble with the 24th amendment.
Do you, personally, know anybody who does not have a photo ID?
Just one person who just, simply, cannot get one?
No black person I've ever met knows of anybody with the problem. You cannot live in modern society without one.
If it didn't cause a problem, mostly to black people, you wouldn't be proposing it. Devil will be in the details.
I don't, but then I don't live in the US.
(Next month I will vote in local elections in London, and it will be the first time that ID is required in a UK election I'm participating in. I think it's no big deal, because ID has always been required in the Dutch elections I've participated in, but the Labour party has gone apeshit about voter ID. Just like the Republicans in the US, the Tories here have not helped themselves by introducing a voter ID requirement with the transparent intention of influencing the outcome of elections. But that does not mean that voter ID actually is a real barrier to voting.)
“I agree, as long as at least one form of photo ID is available free of charge.”
I’m in Wisconsin. The cost of a non-drivers license ID is the same as for a driver’s license. That’s $34, and you only have to renew once every 8 years. That’s an annualized cost of $4.25, hardly a huge financial burden.
And there’s a DMV office (which handles both DLs and non DL IDs) in every county, so no one has to travel more than 20 miles* to get to the nearest DMV office.
*It’s 45 miles from my house to my mother’s house, and that trip crosses parts of 3 counties. I'm at the south end of the county that I live in and there's another county between the one where I live and the one where by mother lives which is north of me.
Voter ID cards are free in Wisconsin:
https://wisconsindot.gov/pages/dmv/license-drvs/how-to-apply/petition-process.aspx
$34 is still more than zero. An explicit $34 poll tax would also not be allowed, no matter how low the amount is.
An incidental expense is not a poll tax. Putting a voting precinct somewhere where you need to drive or take paid transit to get there is not a poll tax. Requiring you to put postage on your mail-in ballot is not a poll tax.
(And, as I posted above, it's moot because it doesn't cost $34 for voter ID in Wisconsin.)
It seems odd to me if a state could avoid the 24th amendment by structuring its poll tax as "an expense". (I'm not sure why an ID requirement would be "incidental".) E.g. requiring you to put postage on your mail-in ballot would be a poll tax, in my view, if that was the only way to vote.
But the mail in ballot actually has to be carried by a mailman ! It's a real expense not a pretend one.
Give us an illustration of how a state could structure a poll tax as an “expense”, in the absence of an actual expense.
Prove you need them, or it's unnecessary.
The left has taken the absurdist position that anything that makes voting even the tiniest bit less convenient than they want it to be at any given moment is unconstitutional "vote suppression". So, requiring that Bob prove he's Bob before he casts Bob's vote?
Same as turning a fire hose on him if he tries to approach the polling place.
The left has noticed that the right lie, and that the right like to stop black people from voting, so when they try to do something ike this, it's best met with instant suspicion.
I personally do think it's a net positive because it helps ensure will of the majority of our nation.
That's what I think. I think democratic accountability is how we keep our governments honest and working for our benefit. I am in favor of elections casting a wide net and reflecting the views of the governed. I am opposed to rules that distort those views or make it more difficult for certain constituencies to participate.
I am not thrilled if that means that "conservatives win" more races. But ultimately I recognize that a fair game played by fair rules will just have outcomes I don't like sometimes. The task, then, is to find the political middle and figure out how to persuade people who disagree with me.
What left-leaning politicians actually do, unfortunately, is another matter. I don't want them to engage in retaliatory gerrymandering. But it's clear they want to, and often do.
I'm fine with increased turnout. This time, next time, all the time.
Also fine with mandatory redistricting, followed by an immediate election re-do, any time a race delivers an opposite-party result on the basis of a gerrymander. Note, I am not calling for proportional results, just for the overturn of paradoxical results.
Happy to see that even if the paradox favors a Democratic Party candidate. No party should win more seats, in the statehouse or in Congress, unless it commands at least a plurality of all the votes cast.
I wonder if right-wingers who stand to gain from more turnout will endorse that practical anti-gerrymander suggestion.
1. Both the federal constitution, and AFAIK every single state constitution, provide for elections in which the candidates are *people*. Not parties.
2. You are making a factually false, and evidence free, assumption when you believe that my vote for a particular person with an (R) or (D) beside their name constitutes a vote, or even a tolerant disposition, toward their party as a whole.
3. My counterproposal would be to delete party labels from the ballot, to deny you the data you want to misuse.
But among respondents who were old enough to vote but voted in none of those three elections, Trump crushed Biden 44 percent to 26 percent.
I think it unlikely - though I'm happy to be corrected - that all these respondents didn't actually vote. The pollsters almost certainly relied on the interviewees' recollection.
And ballot harvesting is a thing. Folk can vote without realising it, and certainly without remembering that they gave their ballot to a harvester.
I haven't seen any specific data about these elections, but it's well-established in the literature that people overstate whether they voted; they don't understate it. (That is, they say they voted even though they didn't.)
I am not concerned about voter turnout, I am for secure, accurate, efficient, and definitive election procedures. You give me those things, and turnout will take care of itself. Focusing on turnout is pushing the wet spaghetti noodle. Focusing on quality is pulling it.
Fani Willis is going to indict Trump for saying that the surge in mail in votes in red counties shows that the election was free and fair.
She isn't, but whatever.
"You might still support increased turnout or mandatory voting if you believe political ignorance doesn't matter much; for example, some scholars argue ignorant voters can use "information shortcuts" to make good decisions, or that "miracles of aggregation" lead the electorate to make good aggregate judgments even if most individual voters know very little."
I think you're missing a major divide in thinking about voting.
There are basically two understandings of the purpose of voting:
One the one hand, you've got the notion, reflected in your quote above, that voting is about choosing staff and policies. From this perspective, of course it's important that voters be informed, and ignorant votes are, at best, noise.
From the OTHER perspective, voting is primarily expressive; It's all about being 'part of things', engaged, and so forth. It's about the feelings, not the decisions. From THIS perspective, political ignorance is utterly irrelevant.
It's that latter viewpoint that's driving demands to make voting ever easier, and possibly even mandatory.
From the perspective of voting as feeling part of something ignorance isn't just irrelevant it is preferred. Ignorance allows you get people to vote for anything at all that benefits you or your cause even when the points are directly in conflict and as an added bonus, allows you to redirect the blame for the conflict away from you.
I must say it gets a bit tiresome to keep hearing conservatives talk and act as if liberals are just as unprincipled at they are. OF COURSE liberals will continue to support making it easier to vote, because it's the right thing to do.
Democrats are the party that supported civil rights in the 1960s even though it cost them the South, who supported environmental regulations even though it cost them coal country, and supported gun control even though it cost them the 1994 midterms. Democrats tried to give people health care even though the people who would most benefit from health care promptly thanked them by voting Republican. And have you seen the stories about all the Latin American immigrants who are voting Republican, even though the GOP is anti-immigrant, over values issues like abortion and gay marriage? Despite that, the Democrats are still the pro-immigrant party.
You can find counter-examples, but overall, I'm proud to be a Democrat in part because we tend to do what we believe is right whether it helps us in November or not.
I’m all for anything making voting easier that doesn’t simultaneously make voting massively less secure. Let’s compare two recent innovations said to make voting easier, mail-in voting and early in-person voting:
– Mail-in voting: terrible tradeoffs, currently the least secure method of voting; the only thing worse would be Internet-based voting, which thankfully, we don’t have (yet). Completely breaks the chain of custody. Completely breaks privacy. Makes authentication a nightmare. Incredibly slow and expensive. (Has California completed its Primary counting of mail-in ballots yet? I have no idea.)
– Early in-person voting: excellent tradeoffs, all the benefits from an ease of voting perspective, small cost in security; however, risk increases with the length of time of the early voting period. Two weeks is what I’d recommend as the maximum. You need just enough to spread out access to counteract long waiting times.
First, it's already incredibly easy to vote; it couldn't get easier if every voter were assigned an individual election worker to come to their respective houses and hold their hands while they filled out ballots.
Second, the topic of this discussion is about boosting turnout primarily via GOTV efforts.
it’s already incredibly easy to vote
Unless the footage of Americans queuing to vote are a figment of my imagination, that can't be generally true.
I guess in some cultures, like Italy, standing on line is considered a difficult task, but here in the U.S. we generally don't have trouble accomplishing it.
When's the last time you had to stand in line to vote, David? How long did you have to stand in line?
First, it’s already incredibly easy to vote...
I mean, it's easy for me; my polling site is a couple blocks from my apartment, I have a job that is easy to do remotely and on my own schedule, the site opens before work hours on election day and closes later in the evening, it's also where I can vote early if I so choose in the couple of weeks before election day, I don't live in a state where I am constantly at risk of having my registration purged or forced to cast a provisional ballot, etc.
But let's not pretend that's everyone's experience, certainly not in many "red" states.
"I must say it gets a bit tiresome to keep hearing conservatives talk and act as if liberals are just as unprincipled at they are. OF COURSE liberals will continue to support making it easier to vote, because it’s the right thing to do."
"Why won't people see that progressives are as pure as the wind-driven snow?"
"Democrats are the party that supported civil rights in the 1960s even though it cost them the South"
Not remotely true.
However, when the South became markedly less racist, it ALSO became markedly more Republican.
Not saying that there is direct causation there...but it is certainly more apparent than "Durr, voting for the Civil Rights Act (which the GOP did in larger percentages than the Dems) cost them the South"
Especially since the Dems held the South for years afterwards.
"Democrats tried to give people health care even though the people who would most benefit from health care promptly thanked them by voting Republican."
And massively increased insurance costs. In a real non-shocker.
I know, the usual "Don't these ingrates know that we CARE about them?" --- while trying to get those same people to pay for the college loans of very wealthy folks who are also set to make far more money than they are.
"And have you seen the stories about all the Latin American immigrants who are voting Republican, even though the GOP is anti-immigrant"
Illegal immigrant, absolutely. GOP is quite opposed to that. As well as abusing the immigration system we do have.
You know who dislikes illegal immigration? Legal immigrants. Cannot stand it. Trying to get yourself a new slave caste is not going to win over voters, hate to break it to you.
"over values issues like abortion and gay marriage? "
Can you name the first President to discuss supporting gay marriage WHILE running for office?
Hint: Not a Democrat.
"I’m proud to be a Democrat in part because we tend to do what we believe is right whether it helps us in November or not."
Your self-professed nobility is only matched by your ignorance.
I don't recall such a blaring example of completely missing the point that was actually made. Did you do that intentionally, or did it honestly whoosh over your head?
My point was not to argue the merits of any of those policies (as to which I think you are completely wrong, by the way). Rather, it was to show that Democrats do what they believe to be the right thing *even when it costs them votes*, which would be true whether their policies are good policies or bad policies. So, i.e., it's not really relevant for purposes of this discussion whether single payer health care is a good idea or a bad idea; the issue is whether the Democrats lost votes because of it. And they did, and they pushed it anyway.
You want to have a conversation about health care, fine, we can have that discussion another time in another thread. For this thread here, the subject is the Democrats' willingness to take unpopular positions that cost them because they believe it's the right thing to do.
"My point was not to argue the merits of any of those policies (as to which I think you are completely wrong, by the way). Rather, it was to show that Democrats do what they believe to be the right thing *even when it costs them votes*"
Again, you believe yourself to be as pure as the wind-driven snow and include false info to make yourself feel better.
You seem to be missing the point.
"So, i.e., it’s not really relevant for purposes of this discussion whether single payer health care is a good idea or a bad idea; the issue is whether the Democrats lost votes because of it. And they did, and they pushed it anyway."
...while getting nice positions with insurance companies as lobbyists and getting some really nice donations from them.
But, again, pure as the wind-driven snow.
"For this thread here, the subject is the Democrats’ willingness to take unpopular positions that cost them because they believe it’s the right thing to do."
Now do Republicans and abortion.
You mean immediately after the presumptive GOP nominee just punted the issue to the states?
I've never said Democrats are as pure as the wind driven snow; just that the snide inference being made by others that they go wherever the political winds take them isn't borne out by the record. Again, you're projecting. But I've read enough of your comments here to know that your political views are almost entirely rage-driven, so that's hardly surprising. (And why would insurance companies give goodies to the party that's trying to make them irrelevant?)
"You mean immediately after the presumptive GOP nominee just punted the issue to the states?"
That's BEEN his stance and the vast majority of the party. For many years. It was always argued as being a state issue.
"But I’ve read enough of your comments here to know that your political views are almost entirely rage-driven, so that’s hardly surprising. (And why would insurance companies give goodies to the party that’s trying to make them irrelevant?)"
Trying to make them irrelevant? Are you actually being serious?
They made them a key part of the entire process.
You don't even need to go to abortion. Free markets are pretty unpopular with voters of left and right, because the outcomes are "unfair" (in that good fortune inevitably plays a role) - and that dang "Invisible Hand" suffers from the yuuuge PR disadvantage of being ... invisible. How can [nothing] be better than [something] ?
Republicans have honestly tooted the benefits of free markets for decades, unpopular though they are. But in office - state and federal - the courage of their convictions has been ... variable.
Plus of course plenty of Republicans never believed in free markets in the first place - they believed in business. Not the same thing.
It definitely is not the same thing. I care about free enterprise. I could give two shits about business.
Few people are more anti-free enterprise than CEO's of large companies.
News flash: Republicans only selectively believe in free markets. If they did, the war on drugs would have ended decades ago and consumers would be free to decide for themselves whether to purchase cocaine or heroin (and my prescription medication would all be available over the counter). They wouldn't be telling medical providers that they can't provide care to trans people. Oh, and the decision of whether a woman gets an abortion would be made by her and her provider rather than the state.
No, Republicans are just as much into big government as the Democrats are. They just disagree on individual application.
"News flash: Republicans only selectively believe in free markets. If they did, the war on drugs would have ended decades ago and consumers would be free to decide for themselves whether to purchase cocaine or heroin (and my prescription medication would all be available over the counter)."
Ignoring the financial obligations of society to deal with their decisions? Unless you are cool with letting them die --- I am, but not many are --- then there are significant costs involved.
"They wouldn’t be telling medical providers that they can’t provide care to trans people."
Should they ALSO do away with child labor laws to not inconvenience business owners?
The beef is with KIDS having the procedures done. Adults who do it deserve the negative consequences. As long as I do not, in any way at all, have to contribute financially to it.
"Oh, and the decision of whether a woman gets an abortion would be made by her and her provider rather than the state."
Libertarianism is ignoring one entity's rights entirely.
Good to know.
In some states, all trans procedures including for adults have now been banned.
That aside, you keep wanting to discuss the merits of various policies but that's not relevant to the discussion we're actually having. Maybe legalizing cocaine is a good idea; maybe it isn't. But the free market view on it is let the consumers decide.
Can you list these states that bar ADULTS from getting mutilated for a mental disorder?
All reports and stories I see involve minors.
"That aside, you keep wanting to discuss the merits of various policies but that’s not relevant to the discussion we’re actually having. Maybe legalizing cocaine is a good idea; maybe it isn’t. But the free market view on it is let the consumers decide."
It IS relevant. Unless the free market ALSO agrees to cover all of the expenses associated with cocaine use, then there is no agreement possible.
How many states still allow infants to be mutilated to flatter silly superstition?
Sorry if this turns out to be a duplicate post.
https://www.axios.com/2024/01/10/trans-care-adults-red-states
With respect to the expenses associated with cocaine use, the free market has a long history of leaving messes for society to clean up. The EPA's superfund was necessitated by damage done by major polluters. The health care system, both public and private, pays to treat cancer and heart disease that were caused by the ready availability of cigarettes and junk food. So why would cocaine be treated any different?
'Free markets are pretty unpopular with voters of left and right, because the outcomes are “unfair”'
Yeah, because they're never really 'free' and they're all usually rigged, and some free markets are just pure protfit creaming middlemen.
However, when the South became markedly less racist, it ALSO became markedly more Republican.
Lol. Yes, that's what happened.
Not saying that there is direct causation there
Because that would be stupid.
…but it is certainly more apparent than “Durr, voting for the Civil Rights Act (which the GOP did in larger percentages than the Dems) cost them the South
I can't say what's more apparent to you, but the shift in the South from Democratic to Republican was definitely due in large part to the national Democratic party supporting civil rights and the Republicans actively courting the disaffected white southern Democrats. For example, Barry Goldwater opposed the Civil Rights Act of 1964 while JRK (who initiated the process that culminated in the historic legislation) and LBJ supported it. And, of course, Nixon's famous Southern strategy which was explicitly based on courting those southern white Democrats. (But, hat tip to Nixon, who did support desegregation given the Supreme Court had spoken unequivocally.)
Strom Thurmond and Jesse Helms didn't become Republicans because they became less racist and less opposed to the Civil Rights Act of 1964 and things like integration.
Facts are facts. The shift in political affiliation among white southerners was largely driven by civil rights, national Democratic Party prominence in pushing those and resistance among national Republicans (like Barry Goldwater) to civil rights and integration.
Is this shift before or after we exclude the 20k+ dead people registering on a single state? Or are we supposed to just ignore that and the rest of the usual fraud tactics like Ilya does?
Well, I ignore Bigfoot, Elvis sightings, psychic readings and weather predictions by groundhogs on February 2, so why wouldn't I also ignore claims that 20k+ dead people registered in a single state?
What kind of anti-intellectual, anti-science jerk ignores weather predictions by groundhogs?
Groundhog Day is what superstition should be.
It's fun, it precipitates hospitality (at one point it was selling a lot of beer), it is something to look forward to each year, and it's a great movie.
But nobody really believes the fiction . . . or even pretends to believe it.
Great holiday. Not a Thanksgiving or Halloween, but very enjoyable.
I promise to buy this guy’s book and give it a fair read. But I will admit right up front that I am highly skeptical of his claim that voters who are “properly” educated will vote “properly”.
People aren’t purely rational, and “more” education doesn’t automatically mean they will be any more correct. In fact, it can make it worse. If you are well-educated in being wrong, you will be excellently wrong.
Highly educated people today are highly trained in some spectacularly bad ideas. Take critical theory, which teaches that the entire moral foundation of society can be reduced to a single power dynamic, the oppressor vs the oppressed. That’s not just bad, it’s dangerously bad. Reductionist ideas like that one have led mankind into some truly dark places even in our very recent past.
Elections are about voting in persons — not policies. They are character judgments, not policy proposals. They are first and foremost about trust, not plans. Plans change in response to circumstances. People aren’t supposed to.
Education-disdaining yokels are among my favorite culture war casualties.
These half-educated rubes can't be replaced fast enough.
Jacques Ellul is required reading in many college courses in philosophy, communications, propaganda and others. Not very easy reading but interesting. One of his observations is that the more "educated" an individual is, the more propagandized and susceptible to propaganda they tend to be.
Not having read him, "propaganda" is usually not well defined. Leonard Peikoff went so far as to say it was undefinable. It generally tends to be a prejorative for the other guy's viewpoint -- my side provides information, the other side propagandizes.
And a lot of times, conservative complaints about a college education is simply that their children were exposed to new viewpoints. One of the elders in the church I was raised referred to it as "ed-jew-cation" and he did not mean that as a compliment.
His definition isn't like that at all, it's about a phenomenon that isn't necessarily intentional but more like an environment we live in that necessarily arises from another conception of his which is technology or "technique" ..I can't really do justice to it right now. These links might give a peek, here and here
"Very frequently propaganda is described as a manipulation for the purpose of changing idea or opinions of making individuals 'believe' some idea or fact, and finally of making them adhere to some doctrine—all matters of the mind. It tries to convince, to bring about a decision, to create a firm adherence to some truth. This is a completely wrong line of thinking: to view propaganda as still being what it was in 1850 is to cling to an obsolete concept of man and of the means to influence him; it is to condemn oneself to understand nothing about propaganda. The aim of modern propaganda is no longer to modify ideas, but to provoke action. It is no longer to change adherence to a doctrine, but to make the individual cling irrationally to a process of action. It is no longer to transform an opinion but to arouse an active and mythical belief."
I've read him...he would not be putting education in scare quotes.
One of his observations is that the more “educated” an individual is, the more propagandized and susceptible to propaganda they tend to be.
The David Bois opinion piece is explicitly a minority interpretation of Ellul. And it tries to make the point you attribute to Ellul like this:
But this is what happens with all humans, it is in no way limited to educated people.
More directly on his point that education makes you more susceptible to propaganda, his main point, according to Bois is that, education makes people think they aren't susceptible to propaganda. I don't think that's probably the case for most educated people now (more so than uneducated people), especially not if they've read people like Kahneman and Ellul and others. We, all of us, are inherently lazy thinkers and subject to peer group influence. I suspect his point was that education does not immunize one from propaganda, particularly sophisticated propaganda. And that is true. And thinking you are immune to propaganda is a sure way to fall for it, but that sort of hubris is not limited to educated people.
Your second link is more interesting and deeper engagement with Ellul. Like most people with some really good ideas, he also had really bad ones.
Thanks for the links and push to engage with this interesting thinker, though it sounds very much like he was a product, like us all, of his time and, so, his conclusions on propaganda are heavily influenced by Nazi and communist propaganda.
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If Trump, MAGA, QAnon, and the right-wing clingerverse are known for anything, it's the intellectuals!
You have been hanging out with these clingers far too long, Prof. Somin.