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What Should a Textualist Think about Trump's Claims of Presidential Immunity?
An interesting amicus brief urges the justices not to rely upon penumbras and emanations in construing the scope of Presidential immunity.
Lots of amicus briefs have been filed for and against former President Trump's claims of immunity from prosecution for his actions on January 6 in Trump v. United States. Among the more interesting briefs filed on behalf of respondents is an amicus brief for Stephen McAllister and Scott Paul (with Erik Jaffe and James Heilpern on brief as counsel) argues that existing precedents on presidential immunity lack a textual basis and that, if the Supreme Court's majority is to be as textualist as it purports to be, it should not extend or build upon this non-textual precedent.
Here is the brief's summary:
Amici agree with Respondent and the panel below regarding the question presented that Presidents, like all other citizens, are not immune from the consequences of violating federal criminal law. Amici take no position here on any potential legal questions antecedent or subsequent to the question presented. And they take no position on whether the facts and the law will ultimately result in conviction, acquittal, or dismissal on other grounds.
Amici write separately to emphasize how Petitioner's claims of immunity lack any basis in the Constitution's text. Indeed, Petitioner's claims flout this Court's repeated and recently enhanced emphasis on looking to the original meaning of such text, as interpreted by history and tradition, rather than relying on penumbras, emanations, reading between the lines, historical practices not incorporated into the text, or, ultimately, the policy preferences and balancing of judges imposed upon such Rorschach-like non-textual approaches.
It has been the decades-long project of conservative jurisprudence to get away from such subjective and malleable approaches to constitutional and statutory interpretation, and this case is not the place to backslide on such jurisprudential principles. Alleged violations of federal criminal law are not discretionary choices left to the President by the Constitution or statute. Even Presidents must be legally accountable for violations of the laws they are sworn to faithfully execute.
The Constitution itself provides no textual basis for Presidential immunity from federal criminal laws. When Petitioner cites actual constitutional provisions, he either invokes the strained implications— penumbras and emanations, perhaps—of clauses that say nothing about immunity, or gets things exactly backwards. When it comes to text, reading is fundamental.
The mere vesting of executive authority says nothing about immunity when such authority is abused or exercised in violation of laws enacted pursuant to Congress' legislative authority. Nothing in the text suggests it is left to the discretion of the President to violate federal or constitutional commands and limitations. And nothing in the text precludes the executive branch from deciding whether to lawfully prosecute previous Presidential violations of the law in the federal courts.
The Impeachment and Impeachment Judgment Clauses likewise provide no immunity to Presidents and do not establish a condition precedent for prosecution. Indeed, the Impeachment Judgment Clause supports exactly the opposite conclusion, serving as a negation of any imagined double jeopardy constraints based on conviction by the Senate. In doing so it confirms that ordinary legal accountability against Presidents is the default legal regime that is not to be displaced regardless of the outcome of impeachment and trial.
Structural concerns and other provisions of the Constitution likewise do not support presidential immunity from federal criminal law. The mere delegation of power does not imply absolute discretion in its exercise, and other so-called structural arguments amount to little more than policy arguments regarding which courts are not the proper arbiters. And, where the Constitution intended immunity for elected officials, it said so explicitly and with built-in limitations, such as in the Speech and Debate Clause, providing specific, but certainly not absolute, immunity to Senators and Representatives. The absence of a comparable provision for Presidents and other executive officers should be more than sufficient to dispose of Petitioner's claimed immunity.
Unable to point to any immunity provision in the Constitution itself, Petitioner relies on older precedent based upon the very methodologies now viewed as illegitimate. While others will discuss the finer points of this Court's past precedent and why it does not apply to this case, Amici here merely note that such precedent lacks any coherent textual basis and, at a minimum, should not be extended further.
Finally, this Court should resist any policy urges to invent immunities for the President and instead hold that the agent of the People charged with faithfully executing the laws is also subject to those self-same laws and will not be given a free pass out of fear for the consequences of applying the Constitution as written. If there is a problem with perceived risk to future Presidents, it is Congress, via legislation, that is best suited to strike that balance and provide any limited immunity it might deem appropriate. While there are legitimate differences of opinion regarding the proper balance between rule of law versus executive timidity, it is decidedly not the role of this Court to strike that balance.
Insofar as the Court insists on drawing lines, however, it should take a narrow view of what presidential conduct is "discretionary" and hold that even otherwise "official" conduct that violates federal criminal law is ultra vires and hence neither discretionary nor immunized from the criminal consequences of such violation. Indeed, the constitutional command that a President "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed" provides as good a basis as any for holding, at a minimum, that intentional or reckless violations of federal criminal laws are not part of the "faithful[]" execution of the laws and not entitled to immunity. The alternative proposed by Petitioner would lead to absurd results or subjective and policy-driven judicial determinations of what conduct goes too far beyond the "outer bounds" of official action.
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It has been the decades-long project of conservative jurisprudence to get away from such subjective and malleable approaches to constitutional and statutory interpretation,
Not at all true. Every time history or tradition show any sign of imposing constraint on right-wing partisans' judicial preferences, they gerrymander around, or ignore, those constraints. Everyone understands that, everyone expects it, and right wing partisans everywhere applaud it.
Hear, Hear !!!
The recent 14th Section 3 decision was legislated,
not taken from the history or text of the 14th Amendment.
Which makes it a bill of attainder.
the constitutional command that a President "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed" provides as good a basis as any for holding, at a minimum, that intentional or reckless violations of federal criminal laws are not part of the "faithful[]" execution of the laws and not entitled to immunity.
That's an interesting one. Could Trump be prosecuted for, say, recklessly endangering those children he locked up in immigration camps and who they then lost?
My guess is no. His attempt to overthrow the U.S. government and sell, trade, or keep national security documents to frame and admire are entirely unrelated to the job of president. Immigration policy is undoubtedly a part.
Normally I would agree, but the authors suggested that intentional or reckless violations of federal criminal law (presumably not constituting things that are expressly sanctioned by other federal law) could also be prosecutable. So I was trying to figure out what that might look like in practice.
Trump did not attempt to overthrow the government.
Concur that Trump did not attempt to overthrow the government.
He did try get the vote counted correctly - albeit on some flimsy grounds and based on some delusional beliefs in the vote count.
To a large degree, the only difference in his efforts and prior efforts by prior losing candidates was the degree of irrationality in the efforts.
He strong armed governors to find votes, he whipped up violent yahoos, and he got fraudulent alternate electors.
There is a PowerPoint. It is absolutely looking to overturn the election, not ‘count correctly.’
But your irrationality is basically arguing it isn’t fraud if you are crazy. Except he was told he lost many times so at some point it’s just fraud on the public.
"He strong armed governors to find votes,"
He strong armed governors to look for votes. Which is not quite the same thing.
“When he said ‘take him out’ he obviously meant for a meal, maybe a show. How could he know someone would misinterpret a thing like that?”
Won't someone rid me of those troublesome votes!
Aren't you the one who keeps arguing that when the Biden administration tells social media companies which users are terrorists, there's an implied "ban them or else we'll revoke 230 and prosecute anti-trust and the other things"?
You seem to have trouble with sanity, Brett.
"strong armed"
AKA talked with
AKA threatened.
JFK also got altyernate electors.
And which violent yahoos did Trump whip up? And how?
Idiots like you know them as “The January 6th Choir.”
“Well, Pat, that’s what the insurrection act is for.”
-Jeffrey Clark
Yes, he in fact did. And he did it on live television. And many of the people he enlisted to help his efforts are in prison right now because of it. Others are awaiting trial in federal and state courts across the land.
Political prosecutions are cool now!
Its the Dems that are modeling Russian behavior.
Look, I don’t mind if you’re taking a break from cleaning between your toes. I’m certain it’s an arduous and thankless task. But we really need you to focus on that. Get yourself a snack, maybe get near some sunshine coming through a window, and get back to it.
Biden is acting just like Putin.
Absent secret service protection, Trump's murder in prison would be the next step too.
Wah wah wah. Whiners. You voted for a crook.
The more I consider this, the more I am inclined toward incarcerating former Pres. Trump at Guantanamo.
At least as easy to secure as any candidate location. The prisoner would seem to be as safe as could be arranged, in a cost-effective and efficient manner.
Relatively simple to limit communications, access, threats, etc.
Appropriately penal.
Some element of poetic justice.
What other arrangement would be nearly as good?
What, exactly, did he do to try to overthrow the government?
Goldfish memory strikes again.
Michael Ejercito : “What, exactly, did he do to try to overthrow the government?”
Trump’s effort to steal the election he lost took many forms. There were the endless lies, the false electors, the pressure on Pence to act unconstitutionally, the attempt to strong-arm or cajole GOP election officals to delay certification or fabricate nonexistant votes, the scheme to announce a DOJ investigation into voting fraud that didn’t exist to postpone election certification and – of course – Trump’s mob rampaging thru the Capitol while he watched and cheered them on TV like a sports fan.
But this (incomplete) list can be easily distilled down. Trump may be dumb as a box of rocks, but you can’t say he didn’t have a plan. Like every lifelong criminal, he’d worked out the caper with all the low cunning he possesses. There were always two points:
1. Make noise. This was essential. Trump had to disrupt and delay the counting of votes and the certification of results. Want to know why he never had a consistant theory of how he was “cheated” from one moment to the next? Think it strange Trump would peddle one set of absurd factoids to one crowd and an entirely different one to the next? Curious why he kept repeating discredited stories long after they were considered a joke?
He didn’t care. Noise and chaos were the objective and factual legitmacy was completely irrelevant – too constrictive in fact. He actually admitted this in a 27Dec20 conference call with DOJ officials. He wanted them to announce an investigation had found so much evidence of fraud vote certification should be halted in key states. The Justice officials said there was no investigation, no evidence of fraud, and no grounds to halt the count. Per mutiple witnesses, Trump replied,
“Just say that the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the Republican Congressmen.”
2. Which brings us to the second half of Trump’s larcenous scheme: Given enough noise and chaos, Trump’s judges, election officials, and legislative officeholders would deliver the election to him. Like many people so rotted-out with corruption, he believes everyone else is dishonest as himself. Judges he appointed would rule for him – right up to the Supreme Court. GOP election officials could be pressured to find phantom votes. State legislative bodies and Congress would gift him the election on the flimsiest pretense.
And that’s what Smith and Willis will prove. It won’t be hard. That 27Dec statement above? There were a dozen witnesses. Alhough Trump has been a criminal his entire life, he’s never shown much subtlety – always getting by on brazeness. Now that he’s in the dock, that’s gonna bite him in the ass…
https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/30/politics/trump-election-justice/index.html
grb, nicely summarized. It looks like a long comment. Given the ground it covers, it is concise.
Wrong.
It was a multifaceted insurrection/coup d’etat
enabled, incited and led by tЯump
…. the President of the United States of America
Along with many other members,
Federal and State …. of the broken GQP
1. conspired with Sec States of 7 States
to not certify the State election results
2. conspired with various State legislators
to overturn election results
3. conspired with folks from 7 States
to send FAKE Electors to Wash DC
4. pressured Mike Pence to not certify the Electors
5. incited a mob to attack Congress at the Capitol,
while they were certifying the election results
6. conspired with armed militias
to attack the Capitol
*** multiple Oath Keepers
and Proud Boys
CONVICTED of sedition
The Special Counsel's Supreme Court brief at page 2 summarizes the factual underpinnings as set forth in the indictment:
In that the matter before SCOTUS is on appeal from the lower courts’ denial of Trump’s motion to dismiss the indictment, these facts must be regarded as true. See Boyce Motor Lines v. United States, 342 U.S. 337, 343 n.16 (1952).
From the brief: "Insofar as the Court insists on drawing lines, however, it should take a narrow view of what presidential conduct is "discretionary" and hold that even otherwise "official" conduct that violates federal criminal law is ultra vires and hence neither discretionary nor immunized from the criminal consequences of such violation."
Your post, as well as the McAllister/Paul amicus brief, gets the proper emphasis exactly backwards. If we are going to prosecute Presidents for official acts, it had better be for bright line/precise/unambiguous violations of law, not for broadly defined BS charges.
Do Congressman have immunity regarding the laws they enact?Suppose the enactment of law A could plausibly be said to have aided and abetted the breaking of law B, could those who voted for A be held to account for aiding and abetting the breaking of law B? Does the Constitution expressly grant such immunity? No, it does not. The Art 1, Sec 6 immunity the brief mentions does not cover official acts of Congressmen (other than speech and debate). So are we to assume that individual congressmen can be held to account criminally (or even civilly) for the laws they pass?
Could Biden be charged?
https://publicintegrity.org/inequality-poverty-opportunity/immigration/migrant-children-disappear-cases-unsolved/#:~:text=Following%20an%20influx%20of%20unaccompanied,number%20it%20recorded%20in%202020.
Possibly. Probably the same broad assessment framework.
You have to wonder if "everyone can be charged" with items like this.
And if everyone can be charged, but only certain people are...is there a problem.
So far no one is being charged for ultra vires official acts, because the constitutional interpretation proposed in the OP isn't the one favoured by the DOJ or (I think) the courts.
No, because this is (D)ifferent.
Could Biden be charged with what, Armchair? Charged with violating which federal statute(s)? Charged with what offending conduct?
The link you provide doesn't even refer to Biden. Did you think no one would click on it?
Who do you think was President in 2022?
What federal statutes and what acts or omissions by Joe Biden, Armchair? If you claim that Biden is culpable for the conduct of others, who are those criminal actors, and what did Biden do within the ambit of 18 U.S.C. § 2?
Same ones Martinned2 implies that Trump could be charged with. Why don't you ask him that question.
Follow the thread.... Follow the logic.
IOW, you have no clue, but you lack the manhood to admit that.
What I've noticed with these MAGA idiots posting links that undermine their own narrative is... their brains are so washed that they can't even read anymore. They have a protective delusional framework that filters and transforms incoming information, like eclipse glasses, so that their psyches aren't harmed by facts. Any article confirms the MAGA talking points when your mind subconsciously replaces the contents of the article with MAGA talking points.
Did he perform acts that meet the elements of a reckless endangerment statute (or common-law elements where applicable) while in a jurisdiction covered by it? The answer is no, which is obvious when you engage the legal question within the legal framework. Bad-faith semantic nonsense is for children and MAGA.
I apologise, it's the first arguable criminal offence that came to mind. Feel free to propose another one (for any recent president) for the purposes of the exercise.
As I recall, they only lost them after they released them from detention into the custody of (Also illegal!) relatives. Pursuant to a court order, wasn't it?
That would be executing the law as imposed imperfectly, not recklessly you dumb twat. Care to apply that to Ovama (you know CiC when the photos were taken) and Clinton? Of course not because you are a dishonest partisan shill.
Nobody would give a shit if you charged Obama and Clinton. We don't have teenage crushes on our politicians. If they did illegal things as President, fuck em. Just because you dream of Trump's dick in your mouth doesn't mean that's how politics work for everyone.
I'm confident that if Bill Clinton had committed perjury in a civil trial deposition, no Democrat would defend him.
Bill Clinton was found in civil contempt for his conduct during a deposition in the Paula Jones matter. Jones v. Clinton, 36 F.Supp.2d 1118 (E.D. Ark. 1999). I don't recall any Democrats complaining about that adjudication.
I'm sure you don't. He surrendered his law license in lieu of any further prosecution. It was a sweetheart deal. Why would a Democrat like yourself complain about that.
Amici and Adler acting as though any decision will be reached on the basis of legal arguments advanced...
That's not helpful. The Justices of the Supreme Court are there because they look at the law in a way that the President who put them there (and the Senate majority at the time) agreed with, not because they are malleable and will take orders on how to vote.
As the left just learned when the right began and completed a 50 year effort to slowly change the composition of the court to rationalize their way.
Hmmm. Maybe facetious rationalization in the search for power is the problem.
Our pure as the wind-driven snow efforts are being wrecked by their manipulations!
See also (and this is, incredibly, a repeat performance by the same parties), "Oh no! If he wins, he's gonna start doing to us what we've been doing to him!"
"What have you been doing to him?"
"Uhhhh, nothing."
The appointment of US federal judges and justices has been captured by partisan politics for 20 years. And, as SRG2’s comment shows, that is having an effect on the legitimacy of the judiciary. And since the judiciary has nothing else but its legitimacy to rely on to enforce its judgments, this is very troubling.
The solution isn’t to undermine the rule of law further by ignoring the courts, or stacking them. The solution is to find a way to appoint judges and justices with bipartisan support. There are many ways to do that that don’t require a constitutional amendment.
"The solution isn’t to undermine the rule of law further by ignoring the courts, ..."
Like continued efforts to forgive student loans?
Is anyone disobeying court orders, or suggesting that they (or someone else) might do so?
Hey, if you don't like the Court's repeated rulings (Roe) you just spend 50 years defying it until you get your way. You know this playbook, Bumble
Feel free to provide examples of that happening on a federal level.
Biden ignoring SCOTUS rulings on forcing others to pay the debts of students has been found to be unconstitutional.
Admittedly, I haven't followed the (bizarre) student loan thing very closely, but didn't Reason just have two articles saying that Biden has come up with a new plan, after the Supreme Court had kiboshed his original plan?
Doesn't that mean he has not "ignored SCOTUS rulings"?
20 years? Ever hear of FDR? I doubt he invented it.
"No, I meant feeder courts."
Nice goalpost shift. And are the Republicans really ahead of the Democrats in this sinister, disreputable trick?
I wrote 20 years because up until the 1990s Supreme Court justices used to be confirmed in the Senate with near-unanimity. Even during the FDR era justices were typically confirmed within a week or two, without the Senate necessarily even voting. (According to wikipedia, which may be wrong, out of 9 FDR justices the Senate only had a division on Hugo Black, 63-16, and on William O. Douglas, 63-16.)
But I intentionally made my point broader, to refer to all Federal courts, because instruments like pink slips are used to make their appointments more and more partisan as well.
The kooks and Rush Limbaugh never got over the failed confirmation of Bork. He was going to be their avenging in the culture wars
Yes, but that was the start of this modern era. It even gave a name for the process of rejecting a nomination. Your complaint is valid, but that party didn’t start it. The one that Borked him did.
The gloves have been off since then, getting more glovey-offier as the years go by.
Anone want some popcorn?
Oh, come on. Bork got 'borked' in large measure because he had little support from the Republican base. And deservedly so.
In retrospect, Reagan's Supreme court nominations SUCKED. He's part of the reason it took so incredibly long to overturn Roe, and get the Heller decision.
Bork was a lousy nomination, who was rejected on the merits, not because of a speech by Ted Kennedy. Bork didn't even take the First Amendment seriously.
The notion that he was unfairly treated is a complete fabrication, and a RW myth promoted by those unfamiliar with his thinking.
"pink slips"
Blue slips.
A pink slip is a term for being fired.
Look at FDR's senate majorities. Unsurprising his selections were overwhelmingly approved.
🙂 Yes, I should be careful when using jargon.
And when the President's party has a large majority, that doesn't mean the other party can't or won't signal their disapproval by forcing a vote, by attempting a filibuster, etc. You can definitely draw inferences from the fact that the minority in the Senate typically didn't do that.
Yes, up until the 90's, you had a Congressional GOP that was habituated to being in the minority, and had an understanding that they couldn't get ANYTHING their constituents wanted done unless they sucked up to the Democrats and didn't rock the vote.
Take a look at that chart! From 1933 to 1994, sixty years, Republicans only controlled the Senate for 10 years, and the House for 4 years. Between '55 and '81, an entire political lifetime for many members of Congress, the Democrats had unchallenged control of both chambers.
Small wonder that the GOP was suffering from Stockholm syndrome at the federal level, and took a long time to start functioning again as an actual opposition party once our elections became somewhat competitive again.
The fact is, people got used to what a Congress utterly dominated by one party looked like, and are somewhat shocked that a Congress where the parties swap control behaves differently.
From 1933 to 1994, sixty years, Republicans only controlled the Senate for 10 years, and the House for 4 years. Between ’55 and ’81, an entire political lifetime for many members of Congress, the Democrats had unchallenged control of both chambers.
And during that period the Senate rejected two Johnson nominees, two Nixon nominees, and Bork. Hardly evidence that one of the major parties couldn't get its nominees on the court.
Krayt, that handy little bit of self-serving rationalization overlooks one point of recent history. Republicans have been unable to find on-point precedents, so the Rs indulged themselves in a series of escalations, instead of relying on mere tit-for-tat. The right-wing premise has always been that R's remain entitled to more than equality; they insist they are entitled to enduring advantage. If that were not the case, they would have been content to end the filibuster for judicial nominees in their own cases, as the Democrats had done. That mere tit-for-tat did not suit them. They had to twice deny the Ds the power to make any appointment at all. The Ds had never done anything like that. They will not forget that breach of comity.
Thus, the tit-for-tat game the Rs insisted upon will not find a resting point until the Ds find a means to use political power to switch a Supreme Court majority enduringly from R to D. That is the logical outcome of what your faulty memory has mistakenly reframed as a process founded on equal conduct.
"he appointment of US federal judges and justices has been captured by partisan politics for 20 years."
This is likely off by at least 80 years.
Too many layers of bitterness and irony; hard to follow your point here.
"off by at least 80 years"
off by at least 180 years I'd say. The Senate rejected John Rutledge in 1795.
Yes, indeed, the Pres should be subject to the same laws as everyone else, more so if he abuses his office to commit crimes.
While we're at it, why not get rid of Nixon v. Fitzgerald and make the Pres subject to civil suits like everyone else?
If the outcome is to make the Pres's job more difficult, that should be cause of self-reflection by people in the legal system. The Pres isn't the only one whose life can be disrupted by civil suits and criminal prosecutions. Let's not have one rule for the nobility and another for the peasants.
The law in general could stand some reforms to limit the impact on innocent people of being caught in the toils of the legal system. Loser pays might do this. In criminal cases, loser pays would mean the prosecutor compensates the defendant out of the prosecutor's personal money.
nb - at present I only call Trump "innocent" because the law presumes him so. An impartial jury can convict him and take away his presumption of innocence.
The problem is that there aren't impartial jurors with IQs over 12 -- you've got charges that most lawyers can't quite understand and hence the verdict is going to be based on "do you like or hate Trump?"
That is not an impartial jury nor an impartial verdict -- regardless of which way it goes.
How is that different from any other jury trial?
A "Jury of Ones Peers" had a specific meaning in 1787 that has since largely been overlooked -- "peer" meant social class and prior to the Civil War, one had to own a specified value of real estate in order to vote.
Hence, in 1787, the US had a system of "Peerage" that was largely based on the British system, the difference being how one acquired membership in it. And while jury selection then may have been of registered voters, as now, the ability to vote was restricted to the peerage.
With the exception of all-White juries convicting Black defendants, SCOTUS has never addressed this -- yet. Sooner or later, I think it will have to because these because a "jury of Trump's peers", in the sense that the framers would have meant it, would be a jury of millionaires -- who may be harder on Trump than a jury of millworkers might be -- but who truly would be his "peers."
Incredible stuff.
I write this as a historian and not as an attorney.
Which of my facts do you wish to dispute?
Did you ever wonder why Jefferson changed Locke's "property" to
"pursuit of happiness"? Might "property" have had two meanings back then?
You write it as a serial fabulist.
The definition of jury of one’s peers has changed as cities grew and people no longer knew everyone in their town.
But it was never based on British aristocracy.
No, although British peers did have the privilege of peerage, which included the right to be tried in the House of Lords.
https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/ld/ldcomp/compso2013/Part3_05.htm#:~:text=Privilege%20of%20peerage%20belongs%20to,survived%20into%20the%20twentieth%20century.
But no such trial has been held since the 26th Baron de Clifford got in a car accident in 1935, and the right to trial by peers was abolished in the Criminal Justice Act 1948.
Whether it’s history or the law, you know fuck all about either.
All of this would make a lot more sense if the constitution guaranteed a right to a “Jury of Ones Peers”.
(I mean, it would still be rambling, ahistorical nonsense. But it would make more sense.)
Neo and Buffy’s Big Bad and their friends on your jury?
Pretty weird that they'd include the Titles of Nobility Clause in the Constitution if that were the case. Fortunately, it isn't.
None of that is true, and of course the phrase "jury of one's peers" does not even appear in the constitution.
Well, everyone else isn't. Judges are absolutely immune. So are members of Congress for things covered by the speech & debate clause.
Other government employees get qualified immunity.
Judges are absolutely immune only for their official acts.
A federal judge who murders his wife so he can continue a sexual relationship with his underage teen lover is subject to prosecution by the state for this allegation. Absolute immunity does not cover this.
A federal judge who sentences someone to death would not be subject to trial by the state on some cockamamie argument that sentencing someone to death somehow constitutes attempted murder under state law.
Sigh. Why are you talking about prosecution? The context of my statement was about civil immunity. You can tell, because I quoted the language I was responding to: “make the Pres subject to civil suits like everyone else?” There’s no criminal immunity of any sort for judges.
OK, instead of “everyone else,” I'll say “the plebs.”
What can I say? I agree, end to end. There is simply no constitutional basis for Presidential immunity, none whatsoever. Article 1 demonstrates that the authors of the Constitution knew how to grant immunity when they meant to, and they did so explicitly, and in a very limited fashion indeed.
It strains credulity that Presidents get greater immunity by mere implication.
If you want implications, let's discuss prosecutorial immunity. Is it any less atextual? Nope.
Brett -- wouldn't a clear ruling that Presidential immunity does not exist go a long way toward eliminating prosecutorial immunity?
I could see that ending badly with very rich but quite guilty defendants intimidating prosecutors into not prosecuting them.
Brett — wouldn’t a clear ruling that Presidential immunity does not exist go a long way toward eliminating prosecutorial immunity?
It absolutely would.
I wonder if Robert Mueller woul.d be subject to suit or prosecution.
Prosecutors don’t have immunity from criminal prosecution in the first place, so… no.
"Prosecutors don’t have immunity from criminal prosecution"
Not formally, no, but informally as a matter of "professional courtesy is a different matter.
The immunity only covers official acts. Accepting a bribe, or murdering someone to cover up a bribe, remains outside the absolute immunity prosecutors enjoy.
OTOH, prosecuting an innocent guy because you don't like him? Totally covered. Look at the Ted Stevens case; One of the prosecutors committed suicide over it, but none of them actually got prosecuted.
Prosecuting people for constitutionally protected acts under novel theories? Totally covered. (Though it should fall under Section 242.)
Letting guilty as hell people go unprosecuted because you like their politics? Totally covered.
The authors of the Constitution were afraid of the executive bringing soldiers like Charles I did.
They did not imagine that a president would try to imprison the man he defeated so as to win e-election.
They did not imagine that a president would try to imprison the man he defeated so as to win e-election.
So far their faith has not been disappointed, given that this is yet to happen.
Smith works for Biden, like all executive branch officials.
Garland seemingly resisted the prosecutions but got overruled and Smith was hired, largely because he is both capable and an egomaniac. Who is senior to the AG?
You seem to operate on a foundational belief that former Pres. Trump not only committed no state or federal crimes but indeed did nothing wrong and engaged in no act that warranted investigation or prosecution.
That perspective is silly.
There’s no indication that Garland “resisted the prosecutions.” As far as I know, the only decision he made related to the prosecutions was to appoint Jack Smith in order to insulate any prosecutions from political influence or even the appearance of political influence.
Your claim that all executive branch officials work for Biden sounds like some “unitary executive” theory. Even if true, it has nothing to do with your original claim that Biden was trying to imprison Trump.
Trump hasn't been imprisoned, and certainly not to prevent him winning re-election.
Indeed. Trump's evident impunity, to avoid a bond revoked on the basis of continuing danger—which would arguably have happened to any other person similarly changed—raises troubling questions.
Are death threats against judicial personnel a factor? Are judicial personnel frightened that if they did revoke Trump's bond, they would be attacked as vengeful because he has publicly attacked them?
Either way, failure to do what the law would authorize for anyone else will cast an imputation of injustice on the historical record of these cases. Neither prosecutors nor the judicial system should expose themselves to accusations of making extra-legal consequentialist decisions on the basis of worries about an unknowable future.
But -- Trump is a nonexistent legal precedent and unless SCOTUS stomps on this now, that WILL lead to the criminal prosecution of Biden, but not for the border mess.
No, the left will either prosecute him -- or riot demanding he be prosecuted -- for not backing Hamas in Gaza. And that will tear this country apart -- I am already seeing him more as a Lyndon Johnson than James Buchanan. I don't think the left is going to vote for him, it may be like with Mitt Romney if the same number of middle aged White men who had voted for McCain/Palin had bothered to go vote.
The left hasn't had to make ""he sucks less" votes the way that the right long has had to, and the real unknown candidate here is Robert Kennedy because you have to be in your 70s to have any memory of his father's 1968 campaign. He might have traction with the Millennials.
He also might get assassinated -- there's enough nuts out there seeking the instant fame that would grant them, and denying him USSS protection is something that the left would absolutely support a future Trump administration prosecuting a former President Biden for. Heck, call it a conspiracy or something, the left wouldn't disagree...
The Constitution is not a suicide pact, and even if an impeachment acquittal isn't also a acquittal of the underlying "high crimes & misdemeanors", the US Senate has spoken, and is it worth tearing apart the country for this pound of flesh?
Look at a different way -- George Floyd's counterfeit money caused a loss to businesses that they would be within their rights to sue his estate to recover -- an estate with deep pockets after the city payout. Why didn't they?
Is justice sometimes better served by not prosecuting everything?
Dr. Ed 2 : "No, the left will either prosecute him — or riot demanding he be prosecuted — for not backing Hamas in Gaza."
To my eye, Ed is getting crazier every day.
I was going to write the same thing. He is becoming increasingly unattached to reality, which one would have thought was a difficult feat.
And as to Brandon’s decision to deny Kennedy USSS protection — that’s a public safety issue because while the USSS is pretty good at protecting people without injuring/killing random members of the public, trigger-happy rent-a-cops might not be.
Blackwater comes to mind in this regard -- at least in terms of the allegations made about them.
So there’s an incident, real or imagined, and some totally innocent Black single mother gets killed by accident. What do you think happens next?!?
I encourage all would-be Trump voters to talk as much as possible about RFK Jr between now and Election Day.
Dr. Ed has very disturbing fantasies, but knows as much about "the left" as he does about every other topic, which is to say nothing. Including our system of government; "the left" can't prosecute him even if they wanted to. (Which, spoiler alert, they don't.)
1) Because, in fact, George Floyd's estate has no money; the lawsuit settlement went to his survivors, not to him.
2) Because, to quote Judge Posner, "only a lunatic or a fanatic sues for $30." (Dr Ed fits both categories, of course.)
These strict textualist aren't very strict in their textualism. Presumably, by their logic, Nixon v. Fitzgerald (1982) was wrongly decided. In that case, the Court held a former President had civil immunity for official acts committed while he was President because a President could not properly function in office if he had to continuously worry about future lawsuits. (I guess a future prison sentence would not be worrisome.) There is certainly no explicit constitutional text providing this civil immunity. How do these textualists distinguish civil and criminal immunity?
It's different because it's different. See?
"Textualism" doesn't mean ignoring clear implications of the text and structure of a document. If the sign says, "No entry before 3 PM," one should not have to ask whether entry is permitted at 3:01 PM. Can a President be required to answer before every local magistrate that demands his appearance? Apparently, because the text of the Constitution does not say otherwise, says Team Textualist. Of course, the country could not function in such a system.
Presumably, by their logic, Nixon v. Fitzgerald (1982) was wrongly decided.
Judging from the OP, I'd imagine most of the signatories would take that view, yes.
Not only that, absolute immunity for prosecutors and judges, even if restricted to their official acts, would not exist.
Qualified immunity would not exist.
Judges and prosecutors should be liable to be sued for illegal conduct.
Which in the case of judges doesn't mean making a legally incorrect ruling, unless it's corrupt, motivated by discrimination, or the like.
Well said.
Let's say this...it's complicated. Breaking it down, and limiting the discussion to federal criminal laws.
1. When a President is President, it is very difficult to prosecute him for breaking Federal Criminal laws. This is because he oversees the executive branch, and the very Department of Justice that would be tasked with the prosecution. He could, in theory, simply order the AG to drop any prosecution against him.
2. The response to this is impeachment (which would remove the President), followed by convicting the ex-president for his or her actions. This has the most support within the legal system and system of governance.
3. Where it gets complicated is actions the President takes as President, which do not result in an impeachment conviction, but nevertheless result in criminal charges, after his or her presidency. Because there are many grey areas, this can begin to look like political retribution. Charges which can't meet the high bar for impeachment but after the Presidency a "retribution" as a lower bar for criminal offenses. Most Presidents have at least some offense that might rise to criminal charges...whether it be Nixon, or Bill Clinton for Perjury, or George W for Guantanimo, or Barack Obama for assassination orders against US Civilians.
Before 2022, these charges in general were not made. It is very destabliizing for the political system for a "grey" area which did not meet the impeachment standard to nevertheless be charged later. It creates a system where one party "cannot afford to lose" because they'll be charged criminally for "something" by the next party to come in. And that is very dangerous for the Republic as a whole.
The law, such as it is, makes it that someone can be charged criminally for almost anything they do. Especially as President, given the difficult choices they must make. I would suggest that impeachment remain the bar to criminal charges for a President's actions. And that post-hoc criminal charges that cannot pass the impeachment bar remain rarely, if ever, prosecuted.
The scope of the OP is textualism.
I don't know what to call this mishmash, but textualist it is not.
"looking to the original meaning of such text, as interpreted by history and tradition"
Presidents throughout history have "broken the law" in some respect for their actions during their presidency. Or can be interpreted to have done so. One can easily find actions that may be interpreted to "break the law" from almost any President.
The tradition, such as it is, is NOT to go and prosecute ex-presidents for potential, past, "criminal" behavior.
If we are indeed looking at tradition and history.
There is not much in the way of tradition since most Presidents have avoided the judicial entanglements Trump has.
Immunity is largely a common law doctrine, so you’re not going to find a lot of joy for Trump there.
Most presidents did not have creative prosecutors going after them.
Most (all?) did not deserve having creative prosecutors going after them...
“Most presidents did not have creative prosecutors going after them.”
That is true, but the word “most” is doing some heavy lifting. Prick Nixon had Archibald Cox and Leon Jaworski. Ronald Reagan and George H. W. Bush had Lawrence Walsh. Bill Clinton had Kenneth Starr and Robert Ray.
None of these presidents suggested that he was immune from prosecution after leaving office.
We’re looking at the text of the constitution. History and tradition can help resolve ambiguities, but it all starts with the text.
From a textualist perspective, the Constitution is very clear on the method to engage with a President who has broken the law. Impeachment.
A method. Not the method. In fact, the constitution expressly provides that impeachment complements criminal prosecution, rather than substituting for it. And, as you may have noticed, Trump is not currently the president.
" In fact, the constitution expressly provides that impeachment complements criminal prosecution,"
Text of this "express provision" is required.
Not sure if you're being serious, but it's in Article 1, Section 3:
"Judgment in cases of impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any office of honor, trust or profit under the United States: but the party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law."
Exactly. That text very closely parallels point 2 which I made in the OP.
"The response to this is impeachment (which would remove the President), followed by convicting the ex-president for his or her actions. This has the most support within the legal system and system of governance."
What Noscitur a sociis implies is that if an impeachment fails, an alternate method of dealing with the president is a criminal trial. But that doesn't align with the text.
The text is "but the party CONVICTED (of impeachment) shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law." Emphasis added.
Noscitur a sociis imples that criminal trials would be an alternate method of dealing with Presidential illegalities. That the text would be something like "but the party NOT convicted (of impeachment) shall nevertheless be liable and subject to indictment, trial, judgment and punishment, according to law"
The text doesn't read that. From a textualist perspective, the word "Convicted" is deliberately put there, and as such, it means something. If it was just "tried for impeachment" then that should be there. It could even read "but the party shall nevertheless be liable and subject..." and that would be there.
But the word "Convicted" is there. And from textualist perspective...that's for a reason. Implying that the case of a lack of an impeachment conviction, the president should not be liable under similar crimes to those which he was impeached for.
All that nonsense adds up to presumption of an entirely different body of criminal law tailored only for the cases of ex-presidents. Please assume that the laws apply equally to everyone not currently the president, or show explicit textual justification for your unlikely insistence to the contrary. Hint: imputations from absences are not explicit.
That may be true, and like any libertarian I think we underprosecute government officials. But it's not going to happen because the vast majority of people in Washington — other than Trump and his cult MAGA inner circle — are institutionalists.¹ They're not interested in burning the government down (for both moral and pragmatic reasons). So no president is going to go around prosecuting former presidents for the sorts of things that presidents ordinarily do. It's only in exceptional cases that a president would ever be prosecuted.
¹MAGA types will sneer and whine and make up fantasies and conspiracy theories about a "uniparty," but that's not a thing. Agreeing with people on the other side that maybe we ought not to burn down the entire constitution/government/media/etc. does not a conspiracy make.
" They’re not interested in burning the government down"
Except for Trump and those who supported him. And if Trump is elected, there's little to stop him from having his "cultists" return the favor.
” They’re not interested in burning the government down”
Except for Trump and those who supported him.
In ordinary English, this would mean you correctly believe that the only ones interested in burning the government down are Trump and those who supported him. And that tracks.
It's just unlikely, given your priors, you meant that. But your sentences are very poorly constructed if you intended a different meaning.
It's a metaphor...Not literally burning the government down.
(Besides, plenty of others throughout history have actually burnt the government down, or wanted to. )
Burning the U.S. government down, metaphorically or otherwise, is a horrifically bad idea. Plenty of others throughout history have burned their government down, but, much more often than not, the resulting government and/or state of affairs is much worse than what they had to start with, especially if the government they burnt down was a democratic one.
The OP clearly has confused the job of president with city manager or magistrate. A job with no discretionary powers.
What we have achieved is a banana republic, in which every president will order the political persecution of his predecessor. Obviously Biden won't dare peacefully give up his stolen power. He'll find a way to cancel the election and declare himself Consul-for-Life.
What we are going to see is every outgoing President issuing both himself and his staff a blanket pardon, and that would be worse.
Especially, as we have seen, prosecutyors can get creative with their interpretations of the law.
https://archive.is/57pIb
"The charges are novel applications of criminal laws to unprecedented circumstances"
I am honestly surprised the editors allowed Charlie Savage to write this, let alone demanded that he write, "the charges are plain applications of criminal laws to ordinary circumstances, backed up by two centuries of Supreme Court precedent".
Wow, what a breakdown, only omitting the dispositive question of whether acts are performed in an official or personal capacity. Unfortunately, that makes the rest of your comment less than worthless.
I no longer think America is operating under any pretense of the rule of law, so I don't really care about whether the text supports Trump's argument.
If Trump wins, I would support him commandeering the military and using it against America's leftist enemies.
This is all well and good, but why are you in the comments section of a legal blog if you don’t believe in rule of law? There are plenty of fascist blogs where you can post about how cool it’s going to be to double execute Tom Hanks at Space Guantanamo. Or you can be the change you wish to see in the world and make the evening news by shooting your neighbors because they’re communists. Whatever makes you happy.
I mean I do believe in the rule of law, but the left started it, so now it's gone.
Democrats just need to be put in concentration camps.
“The fascist-style martyrdom cult justifies violence, in two ways… it establishes prior innocence -- we suffered first, and therefore anything we do to make others suffer will always be justified.”
https://snyder.substack.com/p/the-bloodbath-candidate
Have you ever been to Manzanar, by the way? Pretty sobering experience. There was a time that I would have been shocked and surprised to see someone advocate for a return to that sad and shameful chapter of our country’s history— even in jest— especially on this ostensibly legal blog.
The constant deluge of depravity in these comments sections, sadly, has changed my perspective. It’s still shocking, but also deeply unsurprising at this point.
By all means, please feel free to act consistently with your beliefs instead of sitting around like an idiot. Whether you die of an opiate overdose glued to your chair and your corpse stinks up the trailer park or you die in a blaze of glory visiting fascist violence on your neighbors, you're going to die alone and unloved, so you might as well try to change the world in the mean time.
Facism is as facism does and the only facist I see is the current corrupt reptile slithering around in the WH.
It’s “fascism”, not “facism”, but also when someone says “Actually I don’t believe in the rule of law, what the law says doesn’t matter, we should just use violence to punish our enemies”, that’s literally a definition of fascism, not like “I don’t like the president” or “His policies are bad” or “I think he’s corrupt” or “Biden Crime Family!!!” or "It's mean that the former president got charged with a crime" or whatever people use as a stand-in for the word fascism. Like engage your brain for a second.
Why are you on a legal blog commenting about the interpretation of the law if your position is “The law doesn’t matter [because the left made it not matter], so we should just do whatever we want”? No one is stopping you! Attempt a citizen’s arrest of the “current corrupt reptile”. Why stop at citizen’s arrest? Roll up to Pennsylvania Avenue with a guillotine. The only law is force. Prove you’re tougher than the pinko commies.
Spelling Nazis are the worst fascists. But why do say I don't believe in the rule of law? That's absurd. I never wrote anything like that. I did note that that Biden is a corrupt reptile. And let me add, lying corrupt reptile.
Do not prosecutors and judges also enjoy immunity for their official acts?
Were Nixon v. Fitzgerald and Harlow v. Fitzgerald wrongly decided?
1. Civil immunity. They don’t have immunity from criminal prosecution, which is what Trump is asserting.
2. I imagine the authors of this brief would indeed be receptive to re-examining those cases.
Have judges ever been prosecuted for rulings, however wrongheaded, issued from the bench?
Yes. It's of course incredibly rare, for obvious reasons, but it has happened.
Stump v. Sparkman (1978) is pretty extreme: https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/435/349/
h/t this HLR article: https://harvardlawreview.org/print/vol-136/judicial-immunity-at-the-second-founding-a-new-perspective-on-%C2%A7-1983/
Stump v. Sparkman was a civil suit, not a criminal prosecution.
Then-judge Alcee Hastings was charged with obstruction of justice and conspiracy to solicit a bribe in exchange for a lenient sentence for Frank and Thomas Romano on 21 counts of racketeering and the return of their seized assets. He was acquitted by the jury after the courts had rejected his claim of immunity from criminal prosecution. See United States v. Hastings, 681 F.2d 706 (11th Cir. 1982).
Certainly if those rulings were influenced by bribes.
Judges have immunity from suit for damages for their judicial acts. Prosecutors have such immunity for their acts in initiating a prosecution and in presenting the State's case.
Judges are subject to criminal prosecutions as are other citizens. Dennis v. Sparks, 449 U.S. 24, 31 (1980); O'Shea v. Littleton, 414 U.S. 488, 503 (1974). So is a prosecutor subject to criminal prosecution. Imbler v. Pachtman, 424 U.S. 409, 429 (1976) ("This Court has never suggested that the policy considerations which compel civil immunity for certain governmental officials also place them beyond the reach of the criminal law.").
The whole premise of this brief is abusrd. Immunity inheres primarily in seperation of powers concerns based on our constitutional structure. The TEXT of the constitution vests Executive power in the President and the judiciay cannot use its power to sit in judgment of how the president determined he should exercise hs official responsibilities. I’m speaking in terms of holding a president criminally liable and ordering punishment. Even if one disagrees with the immunity argument, the separation of powers concerns are derived from the text and structure of the constitution. This is just another snide acadamic insult to anyone who dares offer a contrary view.
Look, trained monkey keeps repeating "separation of powers" because he heard Trump's people say it, even though he doesn't even remotely grasp what the phrase means.
The TEXT of the constitution does not vest the president with power to break the law. Indeed, it requires that the president obey it. Moreover, since only the president can prosecute a former president for breaking the law, there are no separation of powers issues. Just like executive privilege only belongs to the current president.
Note that by the trained monkey's reasoning, members of congress and the judiciary would also be immune from criminal liability for their official acts based on "separation of powers," since the constitution vests legislative power in the legislature and judicial power in the courts. But we know that judges are not immune, and that members of Congress only are for some of their acts because the constitution expressly says so.
Also, the impeachment clause expressly says that presidents can be prosecuted, so that kind of blows the whole "text and structure" nonsense out of the water.
That's because the contrary view is a bad faith one that nobody legitimately holds.
The structure of the constitution does not vest the judciary to render judgment on how a president chose to exercise his official responsibilities, certainly not to examine his motive and assess criminal liability based on their examination. And I guess you'd have to give me more specifics on your congressman/judges immunity cases, but those parties were not vested with the executive power of the united states so not sure how far your analogy would go. And if impeached and convicted, sure a president can be prosecuted. Was President Trump impeached and convicted?
You know, this is the very first argument the brief addresses. You might want to at least read it and try to engage with it rather than just repeating the talking point that the brief has already taken down.
If you have a point, try to express it yourself, if you’re able. Don’t think you are though.
Very persuasive!
"the judiciay cannot use its power to sit in judgment of how the president determined he should exercise hs official responsibilities."
There is a point in what you are saying but Biden is determining he should exercise his official responsibilities by locking up his opponent during an election. Should the judiciary sit in judgment of how Biden determined he should execute the laws here?
Biden? I thought this was a Special Counsel subject to control by the AG, not Biden? Weird. But I would say what the judiciary should cannot do is judge how a president excercised his official duties, which is what they would have to do to render judgement against President Trump.
"Special Counsel subject to control by the AG, not Biden"
Who controls the AG?
so, you're saying Biden is carrying out this political prosecution against his political rival? Yeah, actually I agree with that.
All executive power is vested in the President, so Biden is the one going after Trump and trying to lock him up. Constitutional problems with special counsels aside.
If judges say Biden can’t do this then they are judging Biden’s execution of the laws. If judges say Trump violated the law then they are judging Trump’s execution of the laws (at least if the conduct was conceivably related to his role as president). No easy way out, it seems.
The prosecution is directed against the official acts of President Trump. That Biden is now excercising presidential power and waging a political prosecution against his chief rival does not affect the legal/constitutional reality of President Trump's authority during his time in office. In other words, President Trump's official acts are not rendered "unofficial" because that corrupt reptile deeems it so.
There should be immunity because Trump is innocent is a very bad, and quite telling argument.
Who is making that argument?
“ Biden is determining he should exercise his official responsibilities by locking up his opponent during an election. Should the judiciary sit in judgment of how Biden determined he should execute the laws here?”
First sentence is that Trump is innocent, it’s all Biden persecution. Second is therefore Trump should be immune.
Slow down and try harder to follow the discussion.
Biden hasn't locked up his opponent, what are you on about?
That is what he is trying to do subject to due process. Don't be coy.
"due process"
Maybe in Florida. He's getting a kangaroo jury elsewhere.
Which is to say, you know he's probably guilty.
B.O., can you conceive of any scenario where Trump receives a fair trial and is found guilty IAW lawful, standard legal processes?
Because if you can't then you're just a Maggot. (Did I spell that right?)
"(Did I spell that right?)"
IDK, you are the one calling people vermin.
Oh, so his political opponent has been charged with crimes. I thought you said something else. Sorry, being somebody's political opponent doesn't mean you can do crimes and get away with it.
1) "Biden" is not doing this.
2) Trump was charged before he announced anything about running for President.
3) The only reason these things are happening 'during' an election as you claim, is because of Trump's attempts to delay them.
As usual, you're full of shit.
From a textual standpoint the best going forward solution is for the current president to pardon himself and his appointed administration members for any action during the presidential period.
It might turn out that periodic broad pardons might be necessary during the president's administration to avoid the distraction of lawfare events.
=====
From a constitutional standpoint, it's not clear that the kind of control of the executive branch by congress via laws using budget authority is really 'legal'. It seems more likely that most of this is unconstitutional interference with the executive authority given exclusively to the president. Most of the violations of law would go away with proper balance between the branches of government.
With a few exceptions — pardons, nominations, being CinC — the "authority" given to the president is to faithfully execute the laws passed by Congress.
The basic textual point seems quite plausible to me.
Unfortunately, any result in this direction will likely be “Trumplaw” and just a one-off exception to get Trump.
As far as precedent, when I looked at this a while back, I was surprised to see that precedents provide for rather broad Presidential immunity, and the arguments by prosecutors and others hardly addressed that in any compelling way.
As noted, the issue involves questions regarding “the proper balance between rule of law versus executive timidity.” As usual I think the fundamental issue is “who decides.” The most important part of our governmental structure is the separation of powers, including into three distinct branches at the federal level. Severe problems arise when the governmental powers, due to lack of vigilance, “leak out” from these three containers into a swampy morass of ineffectiveness and unaccountability. The point being, for example, all executive power is vested in the President alone, and so currently Biden is calling the shots. Biden is looking at the law, and Biden is making the decision to try and “lock up” his current electoral opponent. Biden must fully own that decision and everything related to it, good or bad.
There is not a single precedent that holds that presidents can't be prosecuted for criminal acts.
And I did not say otherwise. But looking back, I was actually thinking about the OLC memo, and mistakenly thought I was remembering a court opinion. The memo takes a position that results in rather broad presidential immunity.
That memo was addressed in a Lawfare article linked in the post here which I commented on. https://reason.com/volokh/2024/02/07/jack-goldsmith-on-why-scotus-should-review-the-d-c-circuits-decision-on-presidential-immunity/ I disagreed with Goldsmith's characterization of his reasoning as merely "tightening up" the COA decision. But the position from the OLC memo involves a so-called "clear statement rule" which according to Goldsmith is grounded in Franklin v. Massachusetts and other precedent, but goes beyond precedent.
As long as a prosecutor can say a President is just too elderly and a gosh darned nice old man to face prosecution, these textualist fine points are angels dancing on the tip of a pin.
Not what the finding was. That was extra partisan twaddle. Worked a treat on you.
Yes, I’m being sarcastic. I’m also right. No use pretending otherwise, really. Prosecutorial discretion clearly “trumped” all these finer points of law.
If this was the first time I've witnessed this, I wouldn't be so cynical. But, alas.
"Trumped" would be the correct term, especially as the prosecutor exercising the discretion was himself a Republican and Trump political appointee...
Are you criticising Robert Hur's decision in this case?
I have a hard time understanding how this hectoring and condescending brief could be expected to persuade a sitting judge with life tenure.
So if criminal charges can result if a President does not "take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed" does that allow local DA's to bring charges against the President? This will be good news for the Attorney General of Texas - each and every county DA can bring charges against Biden for not faithfully executing the Immigration Laws.
County and state level DA's don't have any authority to enforce federal immigration laws against the President. A federal prosecutor would be needed.
But the discussion has gone off the rails in this thread; sitting presidents enjoy immunity from criminal prosecution. There is a real separation of powers issue trying to haul a sitting president into court while he or she is still President. This discussion is about 'former presidents.' All the reasons why a sitting president has immunity from indictment fall to the wayside as concerns former presidents.
The real question is if "originalist" Clarence Thomas invents a Presidential Immunity for Trump.
...and of course he has nine super votes.
Oh, it's very doubtful that SCOTUS gives Trump immunity.
No, the point is that Thomas voting to give Trump immunity would just be another expression of Thomas's intellectual dishonesty.
In an opinion issued today the D.C. Circuit Court of Appeals has upheld the constitutionality of 40 U.S.C. § 5104(e)(2)(G), which prohibits parading, demonstrating, or picketing in Capitol buildings, against a January 6 defendant's overbreadth and vagueness claims. https://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/internet/opinions.nsf/229855A16C6ED28785258AFA004FE51A/$file/23-3069-2048774.pdf
The crimes involved were insurrection and sedition, right? What does some parade ordinance have to do with it?
Oh, I see, one of four counts was all that was involved in the appeal.
All of the charges against Mr. Massif were relatively minor misdemeanors: entering or remaining in a restricted building in violation of 18 U.S.C. § 1752(a)(1) (Count One); disorderly or disruptive conduct in a restricted building in violation of 18 U.S.C.
§ 1752(a)(2) (Count Two); violent entry or disorderly conduct in a Capitol building in violation of 40 U.S.C. § 5104(e)(2)(D) (Count Three); and parading, demonstrating, or picketing in a Capitol building in violation of 40 U.S.C. § 5104(e)(2)(G) (Count Four).
Only Count Four was at issue on appeal.
Rational discussion is impossible here or any where
Funny you should say that.
Assuming it did not happen organically, who do you suppose benefits from such a situation?
IOKWARDI