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School's Referring to Student by Student-Preferred Name and Pronouns Likely Doesn't Violate …
the parent's constitutional parental rights, including when the school conceals this from the parent.
From Doe v. Delaware Valley Regional High School Bd. of Ed., decided today by Judge Georgette Castner (D.N.J.):
Jane Doe is a freshman at Delaware Valley Regional High School in Frenchtown, New Jersey. Jane is a minor diagnosed with Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and Unspecified Mental Disorder (UMD), and has been under the care of a therapist for anxiety, depression, and gender confusion since April 2022. {The Court refers to Plaintiff's child as "Jane Doe," consistent with Plaintiff's Verified Complaint and the parties' briefing.} Plaintiff John Doe is Jane's father. Plaintiff alleges that he and mental health professionals "agreed to take a cautious approach to Jane's gender confusion" given her mental health diagnoses and the trauma following the death of Jane's mother.
At school, Jane participated in an extracurricular club known as "Students Advocating for Equality," or "SAFE," which "promote[s] open discussion and awareness about modern cultures and topics surrounding intersectionality while aiming to make positive contributions to [the] community and school." Defendant Ashley Miranda is a school counselor and the staff advisor of SAFE.
According to the Complaint, "Jane attended a SAFE meeting and expressed to … Miranda that she would like to undergo a social transition from female to male in school." Plaintiff alleges that Miranda "immediately affirmed Jane's expressed identity and began to facilitate Jane's social transition" and "asked Jane if she would like to change her name and pronouns and be known only as a male at school, to which Jane agreed." Plaintiff alleges that Miranda subsequently emailed the entire high school staff, except two teachers, informing them of Jane's name change, but that Plaintiff was not notified.
Plaintiff alleges that Miranda and the school concealed Jane's social transition from him in several ways. In her email to the staff, Miranda informed the staff that Plaintiff "was not to be informed of Jane's social transition." Miranda also allegedly excluded two teachers from the email because they "have contacts with members of the Doe household." {This fact is contested by Miranda through a sworn declaration. In a responsive declaration, Jane Doe says that she asked Miranda not to include two teachers on the email because of their relationship with her family. Even accepting Plaintiff's allegations as true, it is currently undisputed that Miranda's alleged actions were done at Jane's request. The parties will have an opportunity to provide a more fulsome record on this point in advance of a preliminary injunction hearing.}
And Plaintiff claims that when he communicated with the school about Jane, the school only ever referred to Jane by her given female name "for the purpose of concealing Jane's social transition." Plaintiff learned of Jane's social transitioning at school "months after it commenced," when another parent called Jane by a male name in Plaintiff's presence….
Plaintiff informed the administration that he and Jane's therapist "were not in agreement with Jane's social transition and expressly denied his consent to the continuance of Jane's social transition." The school district replied that it was compelled by law and policy to call Jane by her preferred male name until such time as Jane indicated otherwise….
Plaintiff sued, claiming defendants violated his constitutional parental rights, and sought a temporary restraining order; but the court concluded that he lacked "a reasonable chance of success on the merits":
In this case, Plaintiff asserts a liberty interest in "the care, custody, and control of" his child, which "is perhaps the oldest of the fundamental liberty interests" protected by the Due Process Clause. In support, Plaintiff cites to Supreme Court precedent recognizing a parent's general right to make decisions concerning the care, custody, and control of their children.
But the question before the Court is not whether there is a general parental right related to the care, custody, and control of children. The question is whether Plaintiff has a fundamental constitutional right that requires the Board Defendants to obtain Plaintiff's consent prior to recognizing and referring to Jane as to her preferred gender. At this stage, based on a careful review of all submissions, the Court finds that Plaintiff has not shown a likelihood of success on the merits as to this question.
For one, the cases that establish fundamental parental rights — and define the scope of those rights in a school setting — do not support the type of unqualified right that Plaintiff asserts in this case. Although United States Supreme Court precedent has affirmed the right of parents to control the upbringing of their children, it has also recognized that this right is not absolute in a school setting and that schools may impose reasonable regulations.
The Third Circuit has similarly recognized that although the "Supreme Court has never been called upon to define the precise boundaries of a parent's right to control a child's upbringing and education," it is "clear … that the right is neither absolute nor unqualified." And "despite the Supreme Court's 'near-absolutist pronouncements' concerning the right to familial privacy, the right is necessarily qualified in a school setting where 'the state's power is custodial and tutelary, permitting a degree of supervision and control that could not be exercised over free adults.'"
The Third Circuit has also found dispositive that in each of the foundational Supreme Court cases recognizing the right of parents to direct the upbringing of their children, "the state was either requiring or prohibiting some activity" by the parents. In Anspach v. City of Philadelphia, Department of Public Health, a public health center that provided a minor with emergency contraceptive pills without her parents' knowledge or consent was found not to have violated the parents' substantive due process rights. The Third Circuit reasoned that the state in Anspach was not constraining or compelling any action by the parents, in contrast to the laws at issue in Supreme Court cases such as Meyer [which banned teaching of foreign languages in private schools], Pierce [which generally banned private schools], and Yoder [which required parents to provide some sort of schooling until age 16]….
Here, Board Policy 5756 does not impose the kind of "constraint or compulsion" that the Supreme Court and the Third Circuit have found violative of parental rights. The Policy does not require Jane to engage in an activity that Plaintiff does not want her to engage in, nor does it prohibit Jane from engaging in an activity that Plaintiff wants her to engage in. Rather, Board Policy 5657 directs the school to refer to students by … their preferred gender identity without requiring the school to obtain a parent's consent or to affirmatively notify parents.
In contrast, Plaintiff asks the Court to "impose a constitutional obligation on state actors to contact parents of a minor" who requests to be recognized by a different gender identity, regardless of the minor's preference as to parental notification. Based on the current record and posture of this case, the Court is not convinced that imposing such an affirmative obligation is within "the scope of the familial liberty interest protected under the Constitution." Plaintiff has not demonstrated on the factual record at this preliminary stage that such a right is "deeply rooted in this Nation's history and tradition" or "implicit in the concept of ordered liberty," and this Court is guided by the Supreme Court's and Third Circuit's admonitions not to "read these phrases too broadly to expand the concept of substantive due process … with judge-made constitutional law having little or no cognizable roots in the language or design of the Constitution."
Nor does the current record establish the type of proactive, coercive interference with the parent-child relationship that the Third Circuit has found to violate parents' constitutional rights in analogous circumstances.
In Gruenke v. Seip, for example, a high school swim coach pressured a student to take a pregnancy test without her parents' knowledge or consent. The plaintiffs asserted several violations of constitutional rights, including that the coach's actions "violated [the mother's] constitutional right to manage the upbringing of her child" and "obstruct[ed] the parental right to choose the proper method of resolution" of her daughter's pregnancy. Given the coach's "continued intrusion into what was a private family matter … contrary to [the student's] express wishes that he mind his own business," the Third Circuit found that the plaintiffs had established an "unconstitutional interference with familial relations."
Five years later, in C.N. v. Ridgewood Board of Education, the Third Circuit contrasted the Gruenke defendant's behavior with a school survey that questioned students without parental consent about sensitive topics, such as sexual activity. The Third Circuit held that the survey did not violate the parents' right to control their children's upbringing because the survey, unlike the coach's actions in Gruenke, did not "strike at the heart of parental decision-making authority on matters of the greatest importance." The Court reasoned that a "parent whose middle or high school age child is exposed to sensitive topics or information in a survey remains free to discuss these matters and to place them in a family's moral or religious context, or to supplement the information … [but] School Defendants in no way indoctrinated the students in any particular outlook on these sensitive topics." Thus, the Court concluded that the survey's interference with parental-decision making authority did not amount to a constitutional violation.
The Court in Anspach similarly found that its holding in Gruenke "does not extend to circumstances where there is no manipulative, coercive, or restraining conduct by the State." In Anspach, the Court emphasized that the coach in Gruenke acted "contrary to the student's express wishes that he mind his own business," and "against her express wishes, the coach … attempt[ed] to have her admit to being pregnant, … paid for a pregnancy test and told her, through other members on the team, that unless she took the pregnancy test, he would take her off the relay team." The Third Circuit contrasted the coach's behavior with that of the health clinic, which neither coerced the minor into taking emergency contraceptives, nor discouraged her from discussing the issue with her parents. The minor was "only given the pills because she asked for them," and no one at the center coerced her into taking the pills or discouraged her from discussing the issue with her parents.
The Anspach decision also distinguished Arnold v. Board of Education of Escambia County, Alabama, a case in the United States Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit where school officials "not only pressured [minor students] to refrain from discussing [a] pregnancy and abortion with their parents, but also imposed their own will on the decision of the children regarding whether to abort the pregnancy in various ways, including by providing them with the money for the procedure and hiring a driver to take them to the appointment." Critical here, while the school officials' behavior in Arnold and Gruenke violated parental liberty rights, the Third Circuit highlighted that "neither Arnold nor Gruenke provide for a [parent's] constitutional right to notice."
Here, Plaintiff has not established that the Board Defendants engaged in the type of proactive intrusion into private family matters that the Third Circuit found dispositive in Gruenke. The record so far indicates that the Board Defendants only began referring to Jane by her preferred gender identity at Jane's request, did not coerce Jane into making the request, and did not prevent or discourage Jane from discussing the transition with Plaintiff. Plaintiff does not allege otherwise in the Complaint or the sworn declarations. Although Plaintiff, in his brief, makes a conclusory remark that the "Board Defendants convinced Jane … that she should transition," Plaintiff cannot amend his pleadings by way of his brief, nor has Plaintiff alleged a factual basis to substantiate this assertion. The present record lacks particularized facts suggesting that the Board Defendants prompted Jane to initiate her request or proactively encouraged her to socially transition. Instead, Plaintiff alleges that "Jane attended a SAFE meeting and expressed to defendant Miranda that she would like to undergo a social transition." To the extent the Board Defendants "continue[] insisting on socially transitioning Jane," they are doing so only at Jane's affirmative request….
Plaintiff is also unlikely at this stage to succeed in showing an infringement of his "right to make healthcare and medical decisions for his child." Plaintiff alleges that Jane "has been under the care of a therapist for … gender confusion" and that Plaintiff and "mental health professionals have agreed to take a cautious approach to Jane's gender confusion."
Gender dysphoria has been "recognized by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic & Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders ('DSM') as clinically significant distress or impairment related to gender incongruence.'" But Plaintiff has not alleged here that Jane has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria. And even if Jane's visits with therapists for "gender confusion" amount to a "mental health condition related to gender identity," Plaintiff has not yet shown that the Board Defendants' recognition of Jane's preferred gender identity has violated Plaintiff's right to direct Jane's medical treatment.
Again, there are no allegations that the Board Defendants engaged in "treatment" by "actively approach[ing] [Jane] regarding [Jane's] preferred name," or that they suggested that Jane be referred to by a particular name and pronoun. Where, as here, it appears that "the school merely addressed the Student by the Student's requested preferred name and pronoun," and that "it was the Student initiating and requesting the use of a different name, not the District," Plaintiff has not yet established a likelihood of showing that the Board Defendants have interfered with Plaintiff's right to make medical decisions for Jane.
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Appointed by Biden
"[Judge] Castner is married to Democratic strategist, lobbyist, and attorney Bill Castner.[15] In 2018, Democratic Governor Phil Murphy named Bill Castner as his senior adviser on gun safety, charged with overseeing and coordinating a push for gun control in New Jersey."
Plaintiff had zero chance.
Seems to be very activists judge.
everyone needs to read the opinion. Multitude of signs the school was actively involved in their chosen mental health treatment and hiding the information from the father. Yet the opinion concludes that the " school only acted at the bequest of the child"
Remember how the wise used to warn children against those who encouraged them to keep secrets from their parents?
People who rant and rave about child protection yet don't know the first thing about child protection.
Remember how the wise used to … promote basic reading comprehension?
The child asked the teachers not to tell her parent:
So it’s basically the exact opposite of your scenario.
I said ‘encouraged them to keep secrets’. What part contradicts what I said? If your school principal instantly approves and aids you in hiding your coke habit from your parents thats hardly a good thing even if you technically are the one who initiated it. not to mention she was encouraged in all this ahead of time anyway by the mass brainwashing campaign going on in society. Maybe you need to learn reading comprehension.
'the mass brainwashing campaign going on in society.'
See, the father could think shit like this. Not nice for the kid.
feeding someone's delusion is not nice for them.
So stop doing it. Brainwashing? Do you have any idea the effect such lies can have on kids trying to deal with body issues when their parents fall for this scaremongering?
Yes, you said stuff that you pulled out of your posterior orifice.
What part of "it is currently undisputed that Miranda’s alleged actions were done at Jane’s request" quoted from the decision did you fail to understand?
I particularly draw your attention to the word "undisputed".
Uh....You can encourage someone to do something they initiated on their own and in this case this idea was put into her head as it is with the majority of 'transgenders' today though not necessarily by the school directly.
'this idea was put into her head'
It's the gay panic all over again.
This is Plaintiff's motion for a Temporary Restraining Order (TRO).
Regardless of political persuasion, TROs are always an uphill battle.
This is not the procedural posture to assume your political priors are the determinative issue. But to the extent readers have political priors: it's a request for a TRO. Assume they go against you.
This blog's curation
indicates a condition:
transgender fetish
Transgender this, then
transgender that; anything
and everything trans
Do you blow H&HS Secretary Dr. Rachel Levine with that mouth?
Home.School.
Or at least a private school.
This case is a textbook example of "the law is an ass." Correct on the merits, appalling from regular-person point of view. The plaintiff needs relief by legislation.
The plaintiff needs relief by home school vouchers -- which we'll never see. But imagine if he got the $18-$20K that is being spent on his son by the corrupt union schools -- to spend for the child's best interest....
And then there is this gem:
"Gender dysphoria has been "recognized by the American Psychiatric Association's Diagnostic & Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders ('DSM') as clinically significant distress or impairment related to gender incongruence.'" But Plaintiff has not alleged here that Jane has been diagnosed with gender dysphoria. And even if Jane's visits with therapists for "gender confusion" amount to a "mental health condition related to gender identity," Plaintiff has not yet shown that the Board Defendants' recognition of Jane's preferred gender identity has violated Plaintiff's right to direct Jane's medical treatment."
First, this is the same DSM that, in the prior edition, said that Gender Disphoria WAS a mental illness that should be treated, which once said that "homosexuality" was, and which explicitly states that courts should not reference it.
Above and beyond that, can we say "doublespeak"?
"The law is a ass -- a idiot" The incorrect grammar indicates the character's lack of education.
The aphorism (like the various statements of Polonius in Hamlet, e.g., to thine own self be true, neither a borrower nor a lender be) has moved far beyond its origins. When we say "the law is an ass", you know what we mean and it doesn't matter what Dickens meant by it.
I think that under cases going back over a hundred years, parents and not the school get the power to speak for a child and determine, until the child reaches the age of majority, who the child’s identity fundamentally is.
Government can require children to attend school. But I don’t see how that power extends to secretly doing something like this any more than it gives evangelically minded teachers the power to help their students discover their true religious identity (as the teacher helps them see it), and convert to it, behind their parents’ backs.
" Jane is a minor diagnosed with Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and Unspecified Mental Disorder (UMD), and has been under the care of a therapist for anxiety, depression, and gender confusion since April 2022."
Worth noting that this individual is suffering from multiple mental health issues. Worth noting that the school should not be involved in the mental health treatment. Further worth noting with the other mental health issues, the gender confusion is likely a sympton of the other mental health issues and not the cause.
Multiple bullshit diagnoses
I need an extra hour on all tests…and they all need to be open book. And I need unlimited bathroom breaks.
ADHD is not a mental illness -- it is a neurological difference, like being left handed. Even the DSM says this!!!!!!!!!!
The second D doesn't stand for Difference.
Of course it doesn’t, but that’s what it is.
Defending Ed. What a novelty.
Frankly, you didn't help your case with that last line. Unless maybe you were being sarcastic.
'the gender confusion is likely a sympton of the other mental health issues and not the cause.'
Speaking of people suddenly expert on this child's case. I've never heard of adhd (Ed's right on this one, fair play Ed ), depression or anxiety turning anyone trans.
Anxiety and Depression are known issues that exacerbate all dysphorias. The Trans issue is filled to the brim with politics, but if you look at anorexia (which is also a body dysmorphia condition), you see well-documented and quite strong links to both depression and anxiety. It doesn't take a leap to ask if it can cause negative feelings of other forms.
Failing to screen out people with mental illnesses before treatment was one of the primary complains about the Tavistock clinic in Britain. Because the major issue is that transitioning the patient clearly won't fix their root issues.
It's not supposed to 'fix' depression or anxiety or mental issues not directly related to their dysphoria. It's supposed to fix their dysphoria.
Except the dysphoria isn't the problem. It's a misdiagnosis. Because dysphorias of all kind are often transitory problems as a result of other conditions.
For example, you have severe anxiety and it results in feeling uncomfortable with your appearance. You then self-diagnosis this as being trans. The school decides on their own volition to promote and support this. However, it doesn't fix your anxiety, but it makes it worse because you are adding the transition which actually creates dysphoria rather than fixing it.
Add in the social pressure of "they are doing all this for me but it feels worse", and it worsens a depressive cycle.
I may not be a doctor, but I find the arguments that the push to transition can often worsen mental health quite convincing.
'It’s a misdiagnosis.'
The aroogance of this - you're not a medical practitioner, let alone a medical pratitioner working in the field, yet you can throw this out there as if it means something.
'You then self-diagnosis this as being trans.'
When has that ever happened? If it has happened is there any indication such a thing would get past a screening process?
'The school decides on their own volition to promote and support this'
The school follows best practice for dealing with students with these kinds of problems. The rest is up to medical professionals.
'I may not be a doctor, but I find the arguments that the push to transition can often worsen mental health quite convincing.'
All the scaremongering about 'pushing to transition' yet how many examples of it actually occuring are there?
Are you suggesting that if a child initiates a conversation about religion with a teacher, the Constitution requires the teacher and/or school to affirmatively report the conversation to the parents? What other topics are the teacher/school Constitutionally required to report?
Because I don’t remember that from Con Law. Maybe you’ve got a cite for us.
And perhaps disagreements about favorite sportsball teams should also be covered by the supposed Constitutional reporting requirement.
The school should not be keeping any secrets from the parents.
So where does your constitutional rule end? Are teachers required to report a student's sportsball preferences to parents, in case there's disagreement?
The district court is ruling on the Constitution, not your personal moral preferences. You're free to have those preferences, more power to you; they are not relevant.
It should not be kept secret. If such a preference were normally written on a report card, or if the teacher has some reason to believe that the parents want to know, then the teacher should tell the truth.
Hypo: a Muslim child comes to a teacher and initiates a discussion of Christianity. In these facts, it's 100% kid, 0% teacher. Child asks Teacher not to tell their parents, because that would be apostasy and the parents would kill Child.
Does the Constitution require Teacher to tell the parents that Child asked to discuss Christianity? If so, does that rules also apply to sportsball team disagreements? What lines can you draw as a Constitutional matter?
And where is that actually in the Constitution, or are you pulling your personal prefs straight out of your posterior, and assuming they're in the Constitutional text "somewhere"?
One of the enduring lessons I got from Con Law was "if you get your way, how could your rule be abused by people you disagree with?"
“and the parents would kill Child.”
In Massachusetts, Chapter 51A — I am required to report that because of the part about “parents would kill child.” Lord knows what, if anything, DC&F would do, but I am required to report that.
All 50 states have a mandated reporter law now, and this would meet the criteria of any of them. If a child says that a parent is going to kill said child, you gotta report that — and almost all teachers would.
And it goes beyond this -- if I have reason to believe that the parent will merely harm the child, I gotta report it.
Ding Ding Ding!!1! We have a statutory answer! A good one, too, as I think most people will agree.
Note that it's fundamentally & obviously not a Constitutional answer.
Thanks, Grampa Ed, for getting to the practical and correct solution even if you completely fail to understand the legal difference.
1. Massachusett's mandated reporter law is Chapter 119, Section 51A, not "Chapter 51A".
2. The law requires a report to a government agency, but does not require (or permit in lieu of its requirements) a report to the child's parents.
3. The law doesn't appear to be implicated by Zarniwoop's hypothetical.
4. The law is not constitutionally required, which is the topic we were discussing.
Other than that, great comment!
If there is a murder threat, the police should be told also. The parents would still have a right to know that there is a police complaint against them.
Where in the constitution do you find that right?
It’s even worse than that. You confuse “should” (idealistic, you hope it exists) with “would” (prescriptive, you think a "right to know" does exist).
There are state laws that govern mandatory reporting in certain dangerous circumstances. Even Grampa Ed knows about them!
You notion of “would” and "right to know" is just … flat out wrong. The police are not generally required to notify an accused when someone makes a complaint. Parents, non-parents, mobsters, street muggers, whatevs. You’re just inventing rights that do not exist because you think they should in this one particular case. And that’s not how the law works. And certainly not how Con Law works.
The district court is interfering with the medical treatment of the child absent full medical knowledge.
Now the child will get conflict gender related input for the parents. They would be wise to remove her to another school, before they lose all parental authority
How else are child predators supposed to advance their agenda?
One way is by making it illegal for children to tell teachers things in confidence.
Zarniwoop The first issue is that the school has actively decided to participate in the childs mental health treatment without notifying the parents. The school as absolutely zero authority of override the parents choice of mental health treatment.
the second issue is that school personnel are not mental health professionals
Third, the mental health treatment the school has decided to participate in has a high risk of causing permanent damage to both the mental health and physical health of the child.
"Treatment", you claim. Perhaps you could read the decision and address what it actually does and doesn't say. Directly quoting the OP (did you even both to read to the end):
(emphasis added)
Zarniwoop - perhaps you should read more deeply into the opinion.
Plaintiff alleges that Miranda "immediately affirmed Jane's expressed identity and began to facilitate Jane's social transition" and "asked Jane if she would like to change her name and pronouns and be known only as a male at school, to which Jane agreed."
In December 2023, Plaintiff met with the high school administration, including Miranda.
(Id. at 7.) Plaintiff informed the administration that he and Jane’s therapist “were not in agreement with Jane’s social transition and expressly denied his consent to the continuance of Jane’s social
transition.” (Id.) The school district replied that it was compelled by law and policy to call Jane by her preferred male name until such time as Jane indicated otherwise. (Id.)
Plaintiff alleges that Miranda and the school concealed Jane’s social transition from him in several ways. In her email to the staff, Miranda informed the staff that Plaintiff “was not to be
informed of Jane’s social transition.” (Id.) Miranda also allegedly excluded two teachers from the email because they “have contacts with members of the Doe household.”3
Certainly reads that the school was actively involved in A) the schools chosen mental health treatment and B) actively hiding the information from the parent.
Do you posit that calling someone by their preferred pronoun is "medical treatment", and people need a medical license to do so?
Or is it blatantly, obviously, completely frackin' ridiculous to cede to the government the power to call use of pronouns "medical treatment"?
Your call.
That's enough for me. You're muted.
Bwahaha! Some non-regular who can't deal with an actual argument? I'm soooo put out.
you too...
"completely frackin’ ridiculous"
You may know something about the law, but your expressed ignorance of mental health treatment and the professional responsibilities of the therapist is shocking.
Your foot-stomping does not hide that ignorance.
It strikes me as entirely rational that a therapist, in their capacity as a mental health professional when interacting with a patient, should use preferred pronouns and work with a patient accordingly. And that in that context, use of proper pronouns is a component of medical treatment. Pretty obvious, sure, admitted, yep.
You seem to extrapolate from that that any use of a preferred pronoun is a “medical treatment”. That’s where you and I (and the court, it appears) disagree.
Again: if a teacher, or you, or I merely use a preferred pronoun … is that in an of itself “medical treatment”? If you assert it is, where does any rational definition of “medical treatment” even end? Does politely nodding to a complete stranger as you pass on the street also constitute “medical treatment”, simply because you acknowledge their existence and they might be having an existential crisis?
Washing one’s hands is part and parcel of competent medical treatment. Washing one’s hands does not magically transform every hand washing into medical treatment.
Zarniwoop - you are confusing medical treatment with mental health treatment
Gender dysphoria is a medical condition. The mental health aspect realtes to how the person is treated by others in regard to their condition. Hostility and prejudice will have negative health consequences. Acceptence and support will not.
Yes - the school actively chose to participate in the schools preferred choice of mental health treatment. It should not be that hard for your to grasp. The choice by the school to adhere to the students preferred pronouns is not and was not a passive choice
It's not a mental health treatent, it's tondo with treatingnthe child in a respectuful and accepting manner so as NOT to have a negtavie affect on them. It's no more a 'treatment' than accomodating anyone with a physical or mental disability or who is neurodivergent, in any walk of life.
This has nothing to do with mental health treatment.
The Constitution may not require an affirmative report to the parents but it certainly should view with great skepticism any policy of actively blocking such reports to the parents.
Schools derive their authority from the principle that they act for the parents while the children are in their care. That's what in loco parentis means.
If schoolteachers can't respect a child's wishes about what to tell their parents, that's putting children at risk.
Sure, if you mindlessly assume children, particularly children with diagnosed mental illness, know what's best for them.
You're also making a mindless presumption that the reverse is true.
neither sacastro or nige are capable of recognizing that the child is suffering from mental issues
” Jane is a minor diagnosed with Attention-Deficit/Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD) and Unspecified Mental Disorder (UMD), and has been under the care of a therapist for anxiety, depression, and gender confusion since April 2022.”
I read that.
I just know enough about mental health to realize that having issues does not remove a child's agency, or means the child cannot know what's best for them.
You also seem to think mental health care is not a part of health care?
Good grief. You DO understand why children aren't given full control over their lives, don't you? That they're NOT "adults" yet? That they typically have terrible judgement, and a conspicuous lack of life experience to put what's going on in context?
No, mental health problems don't mean a child cannot know what's best for themselves. Being a "child" generally suffices for that, having mental health problems is just bouncing the rubble.
Yes. That's what makes them vulnerable.
Nobody else can tell you what a child is thinking or feeling except the child. If you reject a child's own words about their thoughts and feelings, you are failing the child. This is what happens when a child *doesn't trust* an adult, and no-one can judge a child's trust in an adult *except the child.*
We don’t have a country where children have no agency or humanity until majority.
This is not an easy bright line question, at least in our society.
Of course they have agency and humanity, which has precisely zip to do with whether they are presumptively better judges of their own interest than their parents.
We have a legal term for the rare minor who has been adjudicated to be in that position: An emancipated minor.
The girl in question isn't one
They don't seem to be doing such a good job in this case.
Those mental issues have nothing to with gender dysphoria, except inasmuch as the gender dysphoria may be causing or exacerbating her anxiety and depression. None of this is helping the poor child.
The nearly-worst way to treat a kid in that condition is to tell them they’re not thinking what they’re thinking or feeling what they’re feeling. The worst is to reprimand or punish them for trying to express those thoughts and feelings.
Nige, read the child protective laws of the state of your choice.
If any of those laws make it illegal for a teacher to treat a child's confidences as confidences, they are not protecting children.
That's easy. Legally, no they cannot until and unless parental rights have been terminated. If you think the child is at risk, you call Child Protective Services! You do NOT have the legal authorty to make those decisions yourself.
If a person asks me to use a certain pronoun ... do I need "legal authority" to use the pronoun they request? Or do I just need basic human dignity?
Ooooh, let's expand that a little bit. If Elon Musk's child - who is actually named X Æ A-Xii - shows up at school and asked to be called "Bob" so the other kids don't mock him mercilessly, what "legal authority" do I need to honor his request? Or do I just need basic human dignity?
And does Elon have a Constitutional right to know that we just call him "Bob"? Does calling him "Bob" qualify as "medical treatment"?
Haven't state Republicans passed laws that mean the child's parents would have to sign a persmission form first?
What you seem to be intentionally ignoring is that your idea of “basic human dignity” differs from the parent’s definition (and a lot of the rest of population). “Basic human dignity” is not a unitary concept. Nor is it a magic phrase that you get to wave around to evade the hard work of persuading others of your views.
In the meantime, when there’s a difference between your opinion of “basic human dignity” and the parent’s, the parent’s wins (again, until and unless you terminate parental rights).
Translation: If X Æ A-Xii asks to be called "Bob":
- that might be okay in absense of contrary information
- it's not okay if Musk explicitly said not to
- it's very not okay to do it and then lie to Musk about it.
A child afraid to assert themselves to a parent hostile to the idea of gender dysphoria but otherwise loving and supporting can hardly be improved by the introduction of CPS unless the situation deteriorates badly.
So you think inserting even less-trained and less supervised school administrators is going to be magically better? Flip the situation and see if you are so quick to abrogate parental rights.
The only thing they're doing is what makes the child feel safe. which is one thing schools do have experience with. No other intervention is occuring.
"Are you suggesting that if a child initiates a conversation about religion with a teacher, the Constitution requires the teacher and/or school to affirmatively report the conversation to the parents? What other topics are the teacher/school Constitutionally required to report?"
Yes.
The secret part is the most explosive bit. I don't think these clowns realize just how destructive of any trust parents have in school systems it is for the school to assert a right to keep secrets from the parents.
Maybe so, maybe not. And maybe there are some scenarios where a school has to balance parental trust with student trust.
But that's not a Constitutional issue, and the district court is not purporting to address the topic you posed.
“ Maybe so, maybe not.”
Stash!!! They’re going on shortly in Mexico!
I agree with you substantively, ps.
Z..
Fuck the constitutional crap.
This case is about simple government overreach in to the care of a mentally ill minor
No. It's about what the child wants versus what the parents want. The government did nothing more than agree with the child.
its a mentally ill child and the school has chosen to be an active participate in the mental health treatment .
Any school with children with mental health issues (ie all of them) is already, by your definition, involved in that treatment just by treating their mental health problems with sensitivity and respect. Putting in wheelchair ramps means they're involved in the tretament of students with physical disabilities. And so on.
Hi Josh
My recollection is that you're the guy who keeps on telling us that we should all go along with a trans person's gender identity, pronouns etc, not out of courtesy, but because that's what the docs advise.
But if the docs advise something difference we should ignore them ?
I have said there is a consensus in the medical community that social transitioning is generally a successful element in treating gender dysphoria to counter those who argue that gender identity isn't a trait. I made no comments about particular cases.
Josh that “consensus” is based on several poor quality studies.
There is a deficit of medium or high quality studies supporting that “consensus “
Trans people have been seeking and getting treatment for well over half a century, at least. It's based on that.
Nige - respond to the point I made
find a high quality study that supports your position
dont link to an agenda driven study
dont link to a low quality study
dont link to a study where the study authors have a conflict of interest
The point you made was a lie. Treatment for gender dysphoria is based on decades of work by medical professionals with trans people.
This is about a court case, Don. That's the scope here.
You want to talk about what's good policy and what counts as government overreach, that's a can of worms.
The holding of the decision is that the father cannot sue the school, because the facts as alleged by the plaintiff do not demonstrate that a constitutional right has been violated.
Then (see above) there's a lot of non-constitutional wankery about how the decision is wrong as a moral matter.
If you want to argue about the "government overreach", that's fine. Feel free! There are ways in which I might even agree (or at least have a more nuanced perspective). For example, a state could certainly legislate disclosure requirements for schools.
The. Constitution. Does. Not. Do. That.
Are we at least clear on how we're talking past each other?
Brett -- Massachusetts DESE has had a policy since at least 2012 that says that parents can't be told that their child has converted. At least I think it is still the policy, I haven't looked it up recently but I did email a copy in 2012 to someone who couldn't believe I was telling the truth.
Same thing people keep saying here, but I digress....
'The secret part is the most explosive bit.'
It’s standard child protection.
Yes yes, this is a hot-button social issue for conservatives. Gets y'all bothered about someone else's underpants. Great. Good for you.
But this pretty much says it all for me regarding an allegation that the school violated the father's parental rights:
(emphasis added) So please let us know what specific Constitutional provision you believe is violated. Or, more likely, what Constitutional penumbra you think is the problem here (does that ring a bell, textualist/originalists?).
I mean, this is the sort of language Justice Thomas would use:
But please, feel free to carry on the legal, Constitutional, and moral hypocrisy when your fee-fees get hurt.
The theory here is that transitioning is a medical treatment for a medical condition, namely dysphoria, is it not?
Suppose a school nurse finds that a kid has cancer, and the child asks for help in getting chemo, but not inform the parents. That doesn't sound kosher to me.
If the kid says 'please don't tell my parents, because they think cancer comes from impure thoughts and they will beat me black and blue', is the answer to arrange chemo on the sly or to call CPS?
Absaroka asks (and not unreasonably!):
Call CPS, because that's not this case. The analogy to "arrange for chemo" is not this case. Again, for those not bothering to read the facts of this case and address the facts of this case:
I asked because other commenters, on other threads, are pretty adamant that pronouns, bathroom preferences, and so on are in fact medically necessary treatment. This is usually phrased as 'but their doctor says...'.
If you disagree with that position, fair enough!
I have said that pronoun use is "what the doctor ordered" to make the point the social transitioning is a treatment for gender dysphoria to counter those who think being trans is a mental illness.
But in this case, the court was careful to note that the right of parents to control their child's medical treatment is limited to where the state requires or forbids treatment. In contrast, agreeing to a request from the child does not violate that right (citing Anspach 503 F.3d, which held that no parental right was violated when a public health clinic gave emergency contraception at the request of a minor).
Some of us think that the only good Voodoo Scientist is a DEAD Voodoo Scientist.
Grampa Ed has spoken ... Break out the wing plows!
Suppose a kid with conservative parents reports symptoms of a treatable STI, and asks to keep that information from their parents.
Suppose the same kid asks for a referral to Planned Parenthood, so that they can get birth control.
Suppose a kid with anti-vax parents shows up at an in-school clinic and asks for the flu or COVID vaccines.
There certainly are major medical decisions where parents should be informed and centrally involved, when it comes to their kids. But kids have rights, too, and sometimes they will want to assert autonomy over less-serious medical matters when they know their parents are not looking out for their own best interests.
The kind of constitutional right being asserted by the father in the OP is deeply troubling for any teenage girl or LGBT student whose parents are less interested in their children's well-being than they are their conformity with a rigid moral code. The same parent who sues a school district for referring to his kid by their chosen name and pronouns is the parent who kicks the kids out of his house for being queer/trans. Fuck them.
Suppose, suppose. In all those cases secrecy is uncalled and counterproductive for UNLESS the kid can produce firm evidence of physical harm form the parents.
I might agree with you if the kid asks to be vaccinated, but you do realize that generally the school won't give a kid an aspirin without permission from the parents.
By the way, did you really call pregnancy a less serious medical matter? Your politics are getting in the way of your good sense.
In all those cases secrecy is uncalled and counterproductive for UNLESS the kid can produce firm evidence of physical harm form the parents.
"Counterproductive?" What do you think a kid will do, when the school staff are all subject to a mandatory disclosure obligation? Do you think the kid presents to the school nurse with an STI, or asks for advice on getting birth control? If they think their parents are making bad decisions regarding their health, do you think they'll seek out options at school to protect it?
You're not thinking through the second-order implications, at all. Either that's because it's beyond your ability, Nicky, doll, or it's because you favor treating children as subject to the dictatorial control of their parents more than you care about their welfare.
The same issue applies for any kid who wants to socially transition at school, but is reluctant to let their parents know. Here we have a mentally ill kid, going to therapy that they evidently are not benefiting from. They think they've found a safe space at school, and non-disclosure by the staff means that they have a measure of autonomy. You want to take that away from them - so, what, they commit suicide, instead?
Yes, of course you do. So does Brett.
I don't think school staff should be overly aggressive about it. I think that any kid who is dealing with STIs, sexual activity, gender dysmorphia, etc., should be counseled by school staff to go to their parents and raise these issues with them. I don't think staff should push kids into making decisions about their health or their bodies that align with what the staff members believe aligns with some kind of "woke" ideology. They should take kids as they are, watch out for their benefit, and advocate for parental involvement. But mandating that school staff act as parents' eyes and ears, as kids mature, just means that kids are at greater risk. No one is helped by such a rule, other than the parents who believe that their desires and ideology trump the well-being of their kids.
The father now knows the kid is trans. Has this kid been kicked out? No? Hmm.
The father uses a feminine name and female pronouns in his pleadings. That sounds pretty non-supportive to me. I wonder who selected the therapist, and according to whose agenda.
I have a relative who spent years with a therapist who counseled him against transitioning. The therapist didn't help to resolve his mental issues. He didn't improve until he found a new therapist - and transitioned.
Anyone with a queer mindset can see what's happening between the lines, in the OP.
Absaroka, this actually comes up and is why permission slips have that legalese about licensed physician and his professional judgment on them.
A true story -- no one will believe me but fuck them.
A school bus driver who has known a kid since kindergarten (he's now about 5th grade) has fallen off his new bicycle in the gravel. He's all bloody and crying, she sees him as she's heading back to the barn so she picks him (and his precious bicycle) up and brings both back. He's bleeding all over the floor but there is nothing we can do without his mother's permission to treat him, and she's in some big meeting and her secretary says she can't be disturbed.
All we needed was a faxed permission but the secretary would not interrupt mother. One of the part time drivers was a town cop and he said that if she didn't do this, he'd arrest the kid and once the child was in police custody, the police had the authority to order medical treatment. That worked -- she faxed the OK and the child went to the ER, but if she hadn't, that's what we would have had to do. (It wasn't a criminal arrest but something similar.)
If it's not life threatening, you can't touch a minor unless you somehow have custody over the minor. Bleeding is imminent and not all that life changing (i.e. stitches at the most). Something like Chemo would probably involve child protective going to court for a court order to have the chemo because you have the 7-10 days (or more) without harm and it is significant and the parents ought to be heard. Or at least that's the way the system is supposed to work.
You couldn't order chemo on the sly because not only would you be in trouble but the medical people as well and they'd never do it.
Now as about "beat me black and blue", see above about 51A.
" So please let us know what specific Constitutional provision you believe is violated."
The 9th amendment.
The primacy of parents over the state in making decisions concerning their children, barring a formal revocation of parental rights, is exactly one of those rights so fundamental that it did not occur to the founders that it would need enumeration.
That's why it took over 200 years for this to become a serious issue: It wouldn't have occurred to school administrators to try to pull this sort of thing until recently.
Now we have to make the right explicit because our education system is falling under the control of people who think those children are theirs, and the actual parents just accidental placeholders until the state feels like asserting its prerogatives.
Tar and feathers are too good for them.
This is one of the most cogent posts I've seen on this board in the last five years.
The kid is making the decisions here, and one of them is that they're not ready to inform their parents.
The kid is a... kid.
No, worse: The kid is... a mentally ill kid.
No Brett, stay with the child is a minor.
Mentally ill complicates it because then the Voodoo Scientists can be heard.
That doesn't mean anybody else can make claims abut what the kid thinks or feels other than the kid. Being mentally ill doesn't make you a non-person.
The parents are the one financially responsible for the kid.
It is NOT the kid's call.
You can't make a kid feel something they're not feeling with money.
The primacy of parents over the state in making decisions concerning their children, barring a formal revocation of parental rights, is exactly one of those rights so fundamental that it did not occur to the founders that it would need enumeration.
Proves too much, unless you mean that parents should also have a constitutional right to work their kids to death in the fields, marry them off to a spouse of their choosing, engage in whatever forms of corporal punishment and neglect they deem conducive to building character, etc.
It's also worth noting that teenagers around the founding would have more autonomy over their own affairs than you seem to think they're entitled to.
That’s why it took over 200 years for this to become a serious issue: It wouldn’t have occurred to school administrators to try to pull this sort of thing until recently.
This isn’t remotely true! And you should know, old man Brett.
The concept of parents’ rights is relatively recent, and really started on the left, as a reaction against corporal punishment and the like.
I wasn’t in school during the days of knuckle-rapping, but even in my day, parents were told very little. There was more of a community mindset back then, which held that the community had an affirmative role in raising kids, and that role was fulfilled mainly through public schools. I would’ve felt totally comfortable confiding in a teacher without fear of getting ratted out to my parents.
Now people think of public school as no more than government-subsidized daycare. Sad.
"The concept of parents’ rights is relatively recent, and really started on the left, as a reaction against corporal punishment and the like."
What color is the sky in your universe?
"I wasn’t in school during the days of knuckle-rapping, but even in my day, parents were told very little."
I WAS in school during the days of knuckle-rapping. The knuckle-rapping was because us kids had no rights to speak of, and the school could only 'knuckle-rap' because it was understood to be temporarily operating on behalf of the parents.
In short, complain to your state congresscrittters if you want a law against schools doing this.
The cynic in me wonders if the shoe was on the other foot, the suing lawyers would get their constitutional violation way.
I'm absosmurfly fine with that approach. Make a law ... but don't pretend there's a constitutional penumbra just because it's a conservative moral issue.
Krayt, we HAVE laws -- look up your state's laws on unemancipated minors.
" Great. Good for you."
It is obviously a hot button issue for you. And one in which you love to be self-righteous without actually knowing any thing about a person's mental health condition.
I don't know about the child's mental health status either, but I would take the assertion of the therapist over that of a politically motivated teacher.
The individual's precise mental health condition is frankly orthogonal to whether a constitutional right exists given the facts alleged.
Lots of usual suspects here who routine denigrate a woman's constitutional right to bodily autonomy over her own corpus (shorter: abortion) are suddenly eager to claim parents have an express constitutional right to be affirmatively informed of something a child has asked to keep secret, in part via the overinclusive, context-free confusion of "using a preferred pronoun" with "medical treatment".
It's the hyprocrisy that I object to here. (and I purposefully omitted using the Clintonian "It's the hypocrisy, stupid" phrasing; I have a good impression you're a pretty sharp individual)
"I don’t know about the child’s mental health status either, but I would take the assertion of the therapist over that of a politically motivated teacher."
I wonder who is paying the therapist's bill. The one who pays the fiddler calls the tune.
The plaintiff has pretty clearly indicated that he believe he has a right to control his child.
The School has the power, to ignore their customers.
Increasingly States are passing legislation that attaches education money to the Student, and can be spent on private education.
Education is managed by about 90% of the administrators holding at least one doctorate and several masters.
All of that, and they are too stupid to consider listening to the customers.
General rule of thumb; any adult who tells a child not to tell his parents something is up to no good.
(unrelated side note: Amazon does in fact sell torches, and pitchforks)
Tar and feathers too.
[Completely unrelated to the topic of course.]
Hasn't the EPA banned Pine Tar?
That is what they used....
What do you think about parents, when the child asks another adult not to tell their parent(s)?
It's almost like you haven't read the decision and aren't grappling with the facts.
I asked our baseball coach not to tell my parents when I got caught smoking in the boys room (Sorry Coach Sandusky, a Lucky Strike, not the Coach) Bastard told them anyway. That Hypocrite smoked 2 packs a day. Living at home was such a drag, my mom threw away my best porno mag.
Frank
I remember when you were caught smoking Hastert in the boys room and you just took one for team—the Iraq War was too important to derail by tattling on Hastert.
Of course you do, false memories are common in drug addicts. Not even sure who this "Hastert" was, I pretty much ignored Politics in the 90's.
Based on the very language you quoted, I would think this parent has a child who knows she's engaging in behavior her parent doesn't want her to, and is meticulously forum shopping at the school to try to make sure she can do it in secret for the vast majority of her waking hours without her parent's knowledge.
I would also find highly relevant the fact that the two omitted teachers appear to be the only ones in the equation who actually know the parent, and yet apparently were the only ones that couldn't be trusted not to tell him. In fact, that seems to counsel directly against whatever ominous concern you're suggesting.
You mean the child talked to people she felt she could trust, and they honoured that trust.
" and they honoured that trust"
You CAN'T Nige -- that is what sucks about it....
Can't what?
You seem to have misunderstood the entire import of this. Longtobefree posited:
(emphasis added). When the evidence is that the child asked the teachers not to tell the parents.
So. LTBF's fundamental premise was 100% bass-ackwards. The quote I provided was to show that LTBF's fundamental premise was 100% bass-ackwards. Are we good at least as far as that part is concerned?
Now, proceed with your feels.
I could buy all that, except you went out of your way to italicize "parents" in your question and your very patient explanation of what you were getting at doesn't account for that at all.
If you weren't intending by that emphasis to juxtapose the parents with LTBF's "up to no good" adults, that was a singularly unfortunate slip of the fingers.
First, you either tell the parent or you tell child protective -- it's one or the other if you let it get to that point and what you need to do is let the child know that you are the adult and can't keep secrets. Or at least beyond a certain point of discretion.
What I find OUTRAGEOUS is that they omitted
two teachers -- who themselves should be suing the admin.
If you are a teacher then you are presumed to be professional enough (a) not to tell parents what you legally can't tell them and (b) to know what that is. Hence either the district was screwing with the rules or saying these two teachers were unprofessional and either is grounds for a lawsuit.
"I would think this parent has a child who knows she’s engaging in behavior her parent doesn’t want her to, and is meticulously forum shopping at the school to try to make sure she can do it in secret for the vast majority of her waking hours without her parent’s knowledge."
Uh, I don't think "forum shopping" means what you seem to think it means.
Well, given that the context was children and authority figures rather than litigants and courts, it's a pretty safe bet it wasn't the sort of hyperliteral usage you seem stuck on. Maybe try closing your eyes, breathing deeply, and reflecting for a few minutes, and hopefully the analogy will become clear.
Even as analogy it fails. Forum shopping -- a phrase not used in common parlance -- involves choosing among alternatives available to a litigant in order to improve the chances of a favorable result. That presupposes free choice. This hapless adolescent "Jane Doe" did not choose to be burdened with a deceased mother and an unsupportive father, nor did he choose which public school to attend. I would be very surprised if the child chose the therapist who does not support transition.
It suggests cyncism on the part of the child, which is unwarranted and despicable. Theres no reason not to suppose that the only calcuation made by the child was related to what was the *safest* course of action.
"did not "strike at the heart of parental decision-making authority on matters of the greatest importance.""
Are you fucking kidding me? I guess that the government thinks that government-directed gender transitioning is insignificant.
"Plaintiff has not yet shown that the Board Defendants' recognition of Jane's preferred gender identity has violated Plaintiff's right to direct Jane's medical treatment."
More bullshit. The ruling states what the father and medical provider agreed to do. How does the court and school usurp the authority of the medical-provider's diagnosis and recommended treatment? I guess this means that schools and courts can regularly go against the recommendations of parents and medical professionals just because.
This is a seriously fucked up ruling.
In a situation where a proportion of the country is in a weird and horrible insane rage about trans people, respecting the child's wishes is the best course for their safety.
No. If you are really that afraid that the parent is going to fly into a rage and harm the child if they find out, the safest course of action is *not* to have the child transition at school. You want to tell 730 kids and all the teachers minus two, and expect it to remain a secret for 4 years? Is that what you do when your concern is safety?
Do you really think that 730 children won't taunt the two teachers with some version of "I know something that you don't"?
And children belong to their parents -- they have the rights to bring them up with stupid beliefs. Even thinking that Biden is a good President...
It’s what *the child* is afraid of, which can encompass a whole range of responses from the parent. Now you want the school to force the child *not* to socially transition, which is antedeluvian.
You conveniently ignore that the parent and medical professionals agreed to this course of treatment. Who are you to usurp that? What kind of logic is required to jump the chasm where a minor high school student can conspire with government officials to intentionally deceive a parent and medical professionals by not adhering to their wishes? Using your logic, this is permissible and justified. It means that at no time during a child life do the parents and medical professionals have ultimate authority over that child. All children are essentially wards of the state in your eyes and parents are merely a biological delivery system for the ward. That logic is abhorrent and perverse.
Now, let's talk about trans people. Currently, approximately 1,000,000 people in the US identify as trans. That means they represent approximately 0.003% of the population. Help me understand why the fuck 99.997% of the population needs to be inconvenienced to accommodate the needs of this statistically INSIGNIFICANT minority of people. The entire nation is getting this shit SHOVED down our throats to accommodate an insignificant minority. The vehement and unwavering support for this insignificant minority and imposition of their values onto the overwhelming majority of the citizens of this country is disturbing.
The "science" behind trans is feeble at best. There are many conflicting scientific studies regarding trans behavior. Is it the result of gender dysphoria? Is it part of the homosexual awakening during puberty? What is the clinically recommended course of action to evaluate someone to assess and determine their true disposition--are they truly trans or is it something else? All of these questions are intentionally never asked, and untrained, unqualified "counselors" weaponize their positions for their own fulfillment and Machiavellian pleasure. It's these "counselors" who impose their views onto the vulnerable students. They are not trained or qualified to take any of these measures. The research behind trans behaviors is considerably lacking for anyone to make clear and informed decisions. You have ignorant, partisan "counselors" making unqualified life decisions for a minor behind the backs of their parents. But somehow this makes sense to you?
'It means that at no time during a child life do the parents and medical professionals have ultimate authority over that child'
Parents have been prosecuted for witholding treatment from their children, or for subjecting them to harmful treatments. That control is not absolute.
'Help me understand why the fuck 99.997% of the population needs to be inconvenienced to accommodate the needs of this statistically INSIGNIFICANT minority of people.'
There is absolutely no inconvenience involved. There is more 'inconvenience' in accomodating the needs of physically disabled people. There are more accomodations made for neurodivergent children. There is more work done to raise public awareness and reduce the stigma of mental illness. The reactionary hate is utterly disproportionate.
'The “science” behind trans is feeble at best'
There's always more room for further study, but gender dysphoria as a condition has been established since early in the 20th century.
'All of these questions are intentionally never asked'
How would you know? You're not involved in the treatment of children with body issues.
'You have ignorant, partisan “counselors” making unqualified life decisions for a minor behind the backs of their parents.'
The child made the decision. The 'measures' were pretty minimal.
"There is absolutely no inconvenience involved."
Demonstrably total and utter bullshit. The imposition of new values and mores of 0.003% of the population onto 99.997% of the population is a fucking inconvenience.
This is a democracy, meaning things are decided by 51% majorities, not 0.003% minorities. The state is weaponizing this imposition of values and mores onto the population through the regulatory machine in the executive branch. It's arbitrary and abhorrent.
"How would you know? You’re not involved in the treatment of children with body issues."
Clearly you know me THAT well. Tell me something else about me, but use fact this time. You're an idiot for the above statement and it shows that your arguments have no teeth. Suck it up and stop telling me what I am and am not involved with.
"The child made the decision."
Legally, minors cannot make decisions like this without parental consent. This is why minors cannot vote. This is why minors have limited ability to exercise their constitutional freedoms. This is why we have legal processes for children to emancipate themselves from these situations. This is why we have social services and due process to address any shortcomings in the responsible treatment of minor children under their parents' supervision. However, you think that all of these process and structures that are in common use across all jurisdictions in the US should be shirked in favor of all of the adults in the room following the direction of a minor child.
Everything you've pontificated advocates for shirking the legal system. It has no basis in logic or law.
You clearly are trans because your emotions are so distorted on this issue. You are choosing emotion over law, and that always has disastrous outcomes.
.
Firstly, 1,000,000 is about 0.3% (not 0.003%) of the population. Secondly, the executive branch is one of the elected branches of government, and is thus implementing majority rule. Don’t like what they are doing? Elect others who will either change the regulations (as permitted by law) or pass legislation to insure the regulations you don’t like are not permitted.
..."thus implementing majority rule."
You mean that the executive branch is arbitrarily creating laws through its regulator apparatus, and that is unconstitutional.
Thanks for the math correction, but 0.3% is still an INSIGNIFICANT MINORITY.
Why don't they try exercising existing laws that have due process and other elements of a civil society. When the executive branch imposes its will on the population, that's authoritarianism.
Under your logic, when Trump becomes president and makes radical changes to this policy like the dictator his is, you're okay with this because we will have "Elect[ed] others who will either change the regulations (as permitted by law) or pass legislation to insure the regulations you don’t like are not permitted."
Very slippery slope supporting the consolidation of power into the executive branch.
.
Yes, as a matter of law (but perhaps not policy). That's the way it works (assuming his regulations are not forbidden by law). Elections have consequences.
'The imposition of new values and mores of 0.003% of the population onto 99.997% of the population is a fucking inconvenience.'
In the sense that a political faction has decided to victimise a minority through scaremongering and legislation? More inconvenient for the minority, I would say.
'Clearly you know me THAT well'
Oh a shot in the dark. You are a type.
'Legally, minors cannot make decisions like this without parental consent'
Legally a child can't talk about what's going on in their own mind and their own body without parental consent? That's a bit extreme.
'in favor of all of the adults in the room following the direction of a minor child.'
Well it's better than telling them to shut up and pretend they're not feeling what they're feeling and if they are they're some kind of freak or monster.
'You clearly are trans'
Lol.
"In the sense that a political faction has decided to victimise a minority through scaremongering and legislation? More inconvenient for the minority, I would say."
Comical. Let's break this down. There are no victims here if we are making decisions based on the will of the majority. That's democracy. You just feel like you're a victim because you didn't get what you wanted. It's a common position that the left takes.
"Oh a shot in the dark. You are a type."
Please continue to explain more.
"Legally a child can’t talk about what’s going on in their own mind and their own body without parental consent? That’s a bit extreme."
You're struggling with what I wrote. "talking" and "making a decision" are vastly different things. Your response completely avoided the "making a decision" part.
"Well it’s better than telling them to shut up and pretend they’re not feeling what they’re feeling and if they are they’re some kind of freak or monster."
Nice extrapolation there. Your defensiveness is flowing now! Where in any of the provided information regarding the case above did it reference or infer that the parent and medical provider were " telling them to shut up and pretend they’re not feeling what they’re feeling and if they are they’re some kind of freak or monster." You are making this shit up on the fly. It is emotional ejaculation lacking any kind of clear argument. Nothing you've written is based on reality. Maybe only YOUR reality, but not the reality that the other ~299,999,999 live in.
I stand by my statement that you are trans. I will conceded that I may be wrong and you might only be a trans apologist.
‘There are no victims here if we are making decisions based on the will of the majority.’
Oh my good God.
(It's not even true. Most people are completely turned off by this 'anti-woke' bullshit.)
‘Your response completely avoided the “making a decision” part.’
No, you and everyone else are ignoring *where the decision came from*
‘Nice extrapolation there.’
It’s only based on what people say about and do to trans people.
‘I stand by my statement’
Do that.
"No, you and everyone else are ignoring *where the decision came from*"
Hardly. I am advocating for respecting the parent's and healthcare provider's proper and healthy advocacy for this child. The state pissed all over that. The state colluded and conspired with a MINOR CHILD who WAS NOT under their PROTECTIVE CUSTODY.
This was the parent's decision. The state needs to fucking respect that and understand where its boundaries lie. The state does not have the authority IN ANY LAW to collude and conspire with a minor child who is at ZERO RISK. The proper due process whether or not to assess if this child was at risk or not was completely disregarded by the state. The state is NOT following the laws and processes it established to protect minor children.
It's disheartening that you advocate for the weaponization of government against families with children at ZERO RISK who were received care from licensed medical professionals. You prefer to use government as a cudgel against those whose values do not conform to yours. People with weak arguments weaponize the government to get their way (hey, there, Joe Biden).
So, no, I embrace where the decision came from. I am a teacher (mandatory reporter) and a parent. I am intimately familiar with this bullshit. They don't teach in American schools anymore. They destroy families. We need to purge 99% of the administrators out of education so teachers can get back to teaching.
"It’s only based on what people say about and do to trans people."
What have I said about or done to trans people? Nothing. I have commented on this article and the specific situation that surrounds it. Maybe you're butthurt because I do not agree with you. That's a YOU thing.
‘The state colluded and conspired with a MINOR CHILD who WAS NOT under their PROTECTIVE CUSTODY.’
They followed fairly standard child protection protocols.
‘The state does not have the authority IN ANY LAW to collude and conspire with a minor child who is at ZERO RISK.’
The child clearly felt she was at some risk. Are only parents the final and absolute authority on whether a child is at some risk from them?
'(mandatory reporter)'
So you'd have been left out of the e-mail chain because you would not have respected the child's desire to feel safe.
‘They destroy families.’
This family destroyed itself. Going to court over the school not reporting the child’s pronouns is, frankly, displacement activity, done to avoid confronting why the child had lost trust in the parents, which is the real core of their dysfunction.
‘What have I said about or done to trans people?’
You’ve accused me of being trans or a trans activist as if either were a bad thing. Clearly you do not harbour warm feelings.
So, Nige, you oppose all statutory rape laws as long as the child is OK with the sex?
If that's what you think we're talking about, please stay away from children.
шинка 39 mins ago
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"The “science” behind trans is feeble at best. There are many conflicting scientific studies regarding trans behavior"
You raise a very good point
A) activists push a medical treatment for those suffering with a mental illness.
B) anti-activists wish to prevent a controversial medical treatment for the mentally ill minors that has strong potential for permanent long term damage ( and possibility of irreversable damage)
Most if not all the activists refuse to even admit in spite of overwhelming evidence that it is a mental illness. Instead of defending the treatment with actual facts, they resort to calling the pro - mental health treatment individuals as people hating transgender people.
A) DOCTORS recommend best practice.
B) It is not a mental illness.
You have no scientific evidence whatsoever to say that trans behavior is NOT a mental illness.
Additionally, doctors are trained professionals, much like lawyers and other such careers. They are subject matter experts whose recommendations are fallible, but those recommendations come from highly qualified and trained individuals. Politicians and "counselors" are all hacks when it comes to this.
Nige's scientific evidence is that it is not a mental health issues is that denial is his method to justify his activist agenda.
Real scientific evidence doesnt matter to the activists.
The law doesn't matter to these folks either. See my post above. He's advocating that we abandon the support systems in place just...because.
You have identified no law being broken. Nor has anyone else.
I literally have the medical establishment classing it as a medical condition, not a mental one. You have JoeDallas.
You mean the largely ignorant medical establishment. You've already acknowledged that there is a significant LACK of peer reviewed studies supporting any of this rhetoric.
Follow the science (only if it fits your narrative).
Yes, the medical establishment is now ignorant even though they do the actual work with trans people, you know best because *something something* and that’s the same as a medical degree.
Yes, the medical establishment is ignorant. You cannot convince me otherwise. I teach at two different universities and regularly spelunk journal articles on any topic I desire. There is very little empirical research available on trans in physiological/medical journals and psychological journals. The general approach for nearly all sexual issues is psychological.
You are absolutely prescribed a biological sex at conception. This is an undisputed fact. The rhetoric coming from trans support groups polluting people with the idea that something other than biology defines sex is not supported in science. Don't agree with me? Start posting journal articles that I can read and better educate myself on the topic. I've tried looking, there isn't any science out there to support this. One, lone study does not define science. It takes many studies using various viewpoints and methodologies to demonstrate that it is sustainable science. It is a high bar to cross, and it should be.
What's also important to note about studies are the H-Indexes of the researchers. The vast majority of the world has no idea what this is, but everyone in academia does and it is paramount. The credibility of the study improves with H-Indexes. So consider that when posting journal articles.
I take knowledge as serious as a heart attack.
'You cannot convince me otherwise'
I don't have to convince you otherwise. Your layperson's skepticism versus medical practices based on decades of experience? Strength of conviction is no cure for ignorance.
'You are absolutely prescribed a biological sex at conception.'
I don't care about your amatuer crank chain of logic for the complete erasure of the existence of gender dysphoria and trans people to your own satisfaction. It means nothing.
'I take knowledge as serious as a heart attack.'
No, you take your own personal authority as serious as a heart attack. Not the same thing.
Using a pronoun has strong potential for permanent long term damage?
What you don't get is that the pro-transition people are the ones in a weird and horrible insane rage.
Sure, Brett 'tar and feather’ Bellmore.
Sorry, that was Bob. Brett, of course has been reasonable and rational all along, reducing children to the status of owned objects.
Brett -
Nige is one of the activists that wont admit that it is a mental disease.
Nige is the one that wont admit that it is a tiny minority of activist doctors promoting the horrible and insane fad treatment for those suffering from a mental illness.
You mean I won't contradict the medical consensus.
Nige - do you know the difference between medical consensus and
activists medical consensus.
the medical consensus isnt nearly as solid as promoted by the activists.
I only know the actual medical cnsensus, not the crank transphobe non-medical consensus.
"Consensus"
Yeah, I call bullshit on this one. There is absolutely NO CONSENSUS scientifically on this issue whatsoever.
What there is is an incredible amount of ignorance circulating around this topic. Zero science. The vast majority of mouthpieces spewing ignorance on the issue aren't scientists. They are all unqualified politicians.
"Scientific Consensus" is a term thrown around by the ignorant. It's just a sign that we need to point and laugh at the ignoramus who posts this shit.
Of course it is. It's a recognised medical condition with an established series of treatments. The pushback is entirely reactionary, political and culture-war based, nothing to do with medicine or anyone's well-being.
You clearly don't have kids.
Because the is a teen and old enough to make her own decisions over her own life. Children are not the property of parents.
So, 17 year old Fred's grades are dropping. His parents say 'bring your grades up or you are grounded/you have to quit football/whatever'. Fred goes to court and demands that he not be grounded/forced to quit football because he is old enough to make his own decisions over his own life and is not the property of his parents.
That doesn't sound like a smart way to bring up children to me.
You are making a straw man argument. The teen is not going to court to override her dad (that is a different process and sometimes can be legitimate). The case is about the school refusing to tell the parents what the teen does not want them to know.
Fair enough, let's try this: Fred tells the school 'don't tell my parents I'm failing algebra, or they will ground me'. The school should accede to that request, because Fred is old enough to decide whether passing algebra or going out with the guys to party is more important?
They cannot answer that argument, Ab. In what world is a mentally ill child competent to make life altering decisions? Answer: Bizarro World.
She needs professional counseling help, not a circus court case.
A pronoun is now a life altering decision. Truly we have left reality behind and are sailing to Cranktopia, where we will disembark at Transphobe Point.
Naw, changing English grammar to appease 0.3% of the population is victimizing 99.7% of the population.
Why is it moral for you, the 0.3% to impose your will on 99.7% of the population?
No English grammar has been changed, and I'm going to be honest, English has changed for so many arbitrary reasons and in so many arbitrary ways that this is the stupidest fucking complaint.
Imposing on the 99.7% (even assuming this isn't a case of majority rule)? You are free to use whatever pronouns you want in most circumstances (**).
(**) But, typically not while on the job because your employer's rules apply.
Then why did the court find the need to refer to the child anonymously and not name the child like they would an adult? Because the child is a minor.
The process of emancipation should be the route to allow the minor to make their own decisions as an adult. Yet this route was never taken (probably because there are checks and balances that most would want to avoid).
No, children aren't property. But parents are accountable. Where does that accountability end and then the state assumes accountability? Currently, the state has no accountability for advocating that this student defy the wishes of not only the parent, but the medical provider. What recourse does the minor have later in life when they regret their decision? Will any individual involved in this process be held accountable? Of course they won't. However, rest assured that the state would hold the parents oppressively accountable of their actions.
Why in the fuck would you want to live in and advocate for a government that makes parents accountable for the upbringing of their children but shirks that same responsibility when the state makes decisions?
The minor, in this entire process, has NOT made any decisions. The decisions were made by ADULTS otherwise they would not have carried any force. The minor is POWERLESS to make decisions in the eyes of the law.
This has nothing to do with allowing the minor to make decisions, but it has everything to do with allowing the state to make decisions on behalf of the minor with absolutely no accountability at all.
'The minor, in this entire process, has NOT made any decisions.'
They made a decision to be called by another name and particular pronouns. That's it. And was too scared to do this at home. The only thing the school did was respect the child's desire to feel safe.
Judge : Plaintiff alleges that Miranda …….. “asked Jane if she would like to change her name and pronouns and be known only as a male at school, to which Jane agreed.”
Judge : there are no allegations that the Board Defendants ……. suggested that Jane be referred to by a particular name and pronoun.
I’m struggling with the judge’s notion of what constitutes a “suggestion."
As Lee M properly notes, its a fine line between doing what the child asks vs providing the encouragement to facilitate the deception.
Castner demonstrates his incompetence and lack of understanding by confusing male/man repeatedly. It’s a—supposed—social transition, not a biological one.
The judge also just begs the question about the scope of the parent’s right here. If a—medically unqualified—school counselor’s ‘diagnosis’ leads or influences the kid to pursue this identity issue in a given direction, then it DOES interfere with the parent’s right to direct MEDICAL treatment. The counselor concealed the information (even if the kid wanted her to do so) precisely because SHE deemed transitioning to be warranted here–based on her medically unqualified, normative judgment. (You can find the counselor’s entire vocational credentialing online.)
How can the parental right be deemed appropriately qualified in the ‘school setting’ when those school officials deliberately concealed information from the parent for some considerable period of time to engage in unprofessional psycho-social experimentation with the child’s identity? Even if you think schools should be free to do so, to facilitate a social transition, shouldn’t they be required to bring in EXPERTS to do the work?
Further, note the ritualistic and religious-sounding language here: ‘affirmed’ the child’s identity.
I suggest a policy or statute that directs school personell decisions:
"Parents must be informed of all important decisions regarding their child education and treatment and should never be deliberatively excluded."
This policy would likely make a teacher say, "Im sorry we can't do that without parental consent."
These interferences assume that parents are not able to make good decisions.
I could agree with stopping short of requiring the school to obtain consent from the parents before engaging in some social transitioning, initiated at the request of the child.
However, refusing to inform the parents, and possibly purposefully hiding such facts, does seem wrong. Given that the parent is now informed (and have sued) it is not clear to me that the requested TRO or preliminary injunction did or would have sought fulfillment of the right of the parent to be informed on an ongoing basis (as distinct from a request for cessation of the social transitioning). But if the TRO or preliminary injunction did seek an order for ongoing information about social transitioning (which could be inferred from the request for a declaration of the right to "direct the upbringing of his child"), then THAT does seem like a fundamental, and the decision does not appear to adequately address such an asserted right.
The Complaint and requested relief appears to seek an affirmation of a right to parental knowledge AND consent. It seems the court might have separated out those two aspects of the request. However, the court does not appear to adequately address the right to knowledge (informing the parent), and instead focused on the consent aspect.
Presumably, if properly informed, the parent could decide to pull the kid out of that school, without needing to address further orders for the school to obtain consent from the parent for continuing to follow their overall policy regarding child-requested transitioning.
The judge made the correct decision. All the school was doing was respecting the wishes of the student. Many students with gender dysphoria do not have supportive parents, and facts of this case do not indicate that the dad was supportive. The opposite seems more likely. The parent is in contact with her therapist, which in itself is wrong, since that does not make the therapy a safe place for the teen. It also says that the parent and the therapist decided to take it slow, there is not indication that the teen agreed. Many teens are abused, beaten, and/or kicked out the the house for expressing non-conformist gender views. It is not the role of the school to tattle to the parent at put teens at risk, but rather they need to be a safe and supportive environment.
Clearly, you do not have children.
Once again: If the parent knowing is putting the teen at risk, then encouraging the teen to transition at school is putting the teen at risk. The kid was a freshman. The odds aren't great at keeping that secret for 4 years if you tell 700+ people (and, indeed, the secret was not kept in this case.)
This is a child who was actively under medical treatment for mental health issues, and the school decided to undermine that by encouraging the exact opposite. That's ridiculous. Yes, the child may have initially broached the subject, but it was the school that immediately jumped in with sure, we'll call you a different name and different pronouns all contrary to your medical treatment AND actively deceive your dad about it. The school is substituting their own medical judgment over the child's own doctor, and that's absurd. This isn't like the child just started doing everything on their own and the school just didn't say something. They're the ones who immediately started making recommendations for what to do and then actively worked to conceal it.
KenveeB 4 mins ago Flag Comment Mute User This is a child who was actively under medical treatment for mental health issues, and the school decided to undermine that by encouraging the exact opposite. ”
Excellent point – something the activists fail to note. It is in fact active interference with her mental health treatment.
Which is even more distributing is the schools belief that they are better suited to provide mental health treatment.
It's no more 'interference' than any other school accomodation for any kid with physical or mental health issues or conditions.
Nige – follow the facts – not your activist agenda
The minor child was already under the care of a mental health professional at the time the school became involved and passively became involved in the alternate mental health care.
You are far too invested in your activist agenda
As noted by KenveeB -
KenveeB 46 mins ago
Flag Comment Mute User
This is a child who was actively under medical treatment for mental health issues, and the school decided to undermine that by encouraging the exact opposite.
See how Nige (‘Ingsoc’) lies? Look up the counselor’s credentialing: she isn’t even remotely competent or qualified to make any such medical or psychological assessment, let alone expert in how to proceed with ‘facilitating’ a social transition.
EVEN IF one believed—which one should not—that it is within a school’s purview to undertake such work (let alone to conceal it from parents), the school ought to have called in, and utilized, actual experts, actual professionals, to do so. It didn’t here.
There is no ‘work’ undertaken by the school. The kid wanted to be adressed a certain way. As per best practice, the school went along with it. If the kid didn’t want to tell their parent, if it contradicted what the therapist was doing, that suggest a a sharp disjunction between the kid, the parent and the therapist. The school can only deal with the kid as is, to make their experience of school as comfortable as possible.
No ‘work undertaken’. The judgment itself discusses facilitation. Further, everything the counselor did constituted ‘work’ to this end. (Professional work? No. Medically qualified and/or scientifically buttressed work? No. Politically motivated work? Yes.)
The counselor is not medically-trained, Ingsoc. Stop lying. (I know, I know… asking a totalitarian to cease to lie is a waste of time.)
‘Best’ practice. Question begging.
Address the claim’s merits, Ingsoc. Choose REAL science. 2+2 does NOT equal 5.
The judge already adressed the claim, JASL. The counseler did their job - making sure a child felt safe in their school.
See? All you do is lie.
And all you do is accuse people of lying.
Lying again, Ingsoc: I also tend to point out HOW they lie, and how they don't reply on the merits. 🙂
You create elaborate straw men to explain away stuff you don't like and attack people who disagree with you.
Clearly that mental health professional was doing a heckuva job.
I think this is actually a free speech case, but because of the doctrine of government speech, it gets decided as a parental rights case instead.
Imagine a private school did this. The parent might be able to sue for breach of contract if this was prohibited in the enrollment agreement. But otherwise, this would be the school's free speech, right? They can call Jane anything they want to call Jane, can report or not report anything they want or do not want to Jane's parents, etc.
Well, you don't have those free speech rights in this case, because these are government officials. So the Court gets to the same place another way:
"The Third Circuit has also found dispositive that in each of the foundational Supreme Court cases recognizing the right of parents to direct the upbringing of their children, "the state was either requiring or prohibiting some activity" by the parents."
Essentially, parental rights kick in when the state tells a PARENT what to do. But a state official can engage in their OWN speech without infringing parental rights.
I'm not sure this is correct. For instance, think about Establishment Clause problems. Can a schoolteacher say whatever he wants about God in class? I would assume not, given the Engel v. Vitale line of cases. But now modify it a bit-- suppose a parent opts her kid out of a comparative religion class because she is raising the kid in a particular religion. Now the teacher talks to the kid about God in a way the parent doesn't approve anyway. No violation of parental rights?
I get that there IS a speech interest here. The school needs to be able to have a policy as to how it will handle trans kids. They have the right to believe that they should follow WPATH guidelines on something like this. But there is ALSO a parental interest here, which can't be written off by saying the parent isn't being required to do something. And they DO conflict. It's a harder case than the District Court says it is.
That's an interesting take, thanks!
This isn't complicated.
Your kid coming out to other people before they come out to you isn't a violation of your rights.
Other people respecting your kids wishes by not outing the kid to you is not a violation of your rights.
And finally, going to court because you're such a bad parent that you feel the need to force their school to spy for you? Is a big ol' self-own.