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Supreme Court to Consider Scope of Congress's Taxing Power under the 16th Amendment
The question presented is whether the 16th Amendment authorizes Congress to tax unrealized sums without apportionment among the states.
Today the Supreme Court granted certiorari in Moore v United States, which considers the estent to which the 16th Amendment constrains Congress's ability to impose different sorts of taxes and, in particular, whether Congress may tax unrealized income without apportionment.
Here is the question presented from the petition for certiorari:
The Sixteenth Amendment authorizes Congress to lay "taxes on incomes…without apportionment among the several States." Beginning with Eisner v. Macomber, 252 U.S. 189 (1920), this Court's decisions have uniformly held "income," for Sixteenth Amendment purposes, to require realization by the taxpayer. In the decision below, however, the Ninth Circuit approved taxation of a married couple on earnings that they undisputedly did not realize but were instead retained and reinvested by a corporation in which they are minority shareholders. It held that "realization of income is not a constitutional requirement" for Congress to lay an "income" tax exempt from apportionment. App.12. In so holding, the Ninth Circuit became "the first court in the country to state that an 'income tax' doesn't require that a 'taxpayer has realized income.'" App.38 (Bumatay, J., dissenting from denial of rehearing en banc).
The question presented is:
Whether the Sixteenth Amendment authorizes Congress to tax unrealized sums without apportionment among the states.
As noted in the brief, the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit denied rehearing en banc over a dissent from Judge Bumatay. I suspect that was a flag to the Court that this case could be cert-worthy. Either that or it was the amicus brief filed by my colleague Erik Jensen (along with James Ely and the Manhattan Institute). Either way, this will be an interesting case to watch next term.
Briefs and lower court opinions can be found here.
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The concept of taxing unrealized gains is horrific. The fact that the Federals and some State governments are that desperate to take from us is really telling.
It strongly suggests that they are well aware the end is near and they are on the “Loot the treasury” stage of empire collapse.
That does seem the case; They’re concerned there isn’t enough actual income, so they might need to tax counterfactual income, too.
There is more than sufficient income, they just know that if we had taxes on the middle class like the EU that the game would be over.
This harks back to a problem I’ve talked about earlier: The voters want lots of government programs and lots of government spending without having to pay for it. The only way to pay for it all would be tax the middle class at the levels the EU does (plus a hefty tax hike on the 1%). That’s a political non-starter. Fiscal responsibility is essentially impossible at this point.
Everybody wants stuff, and doesn’t want to pay for it. That’s not new, that’s a constant. Tell somebody you’re picking up the bill, they order filet, split the check and they order a hamburger.
The change is that getting stuff you don’t pay for is actually on offer, and has been long enough that the average person is flatly unaware of how much the government is actually costing these days. People have grown utterly disconnected from how high the cost of government is.
Federal spending is planned to be $6.2T, that’s about $19K for every man, woman, and child, or closer to $38K per wage earner.
The problem with socialism is that sooner or later you run out of other people’s money.
=== Maggy Thatcher
Krychek_2 : “The voters want lots of government programs and lots of government spending without having to pay for it”
A statement universally & timelessly true. However, take a step back and recall the budget situation in the Clinton Administration. That resulted from two deficit packages passed under Clinton and G.H.W. Bush. They included squeezing the growth of spending, structural budgetary measures to control new spending / tax cuts, moderate spending cuts and moderate middle class tax hikes. That and a very robust economic expansion brought the deficit down to zero.
Of course W Blush and the GOP blew the entire agreement up, passing massive tax cuts, eliminating budget restraints that blocked those cuts, and boosting spending. Those naïve enough to believe the Right’s bullshit on debt before W had no excuse after. And that remains true today. I can’t think of any political stance today that embodies gross hypocrisy more than a right-winger talking about debt.
You have to distinguish between political activist/voter right-wingers, who often really do care about this stuff, and the professional politician right-wingers, who generally don’t care about more than talking a good enough game on it to get past the primary.
Brett Bellmore : “You have to distinguish between political activist/voter right-wingers….”
OK, Brett, prove me wrong. As I said above, by the end of the Clinton Administration this country had roughly brought its fiscal house in order. It took a major effort by two presidents, multiple Congresses, and actions that both parties found very painful. As I said above, this accomplishment was completely sabotaged by the W Bush White House and Republican Congress.
Tell me you didn’t loudly cheer every step. Tell me you didn’t “justify” massive tax cuts with supply-side fairy tales even a small child couldn’t believe. Tell me you didn’t ignore W’s spending (as opposed to the religious fervor you rediscover when a Dem moves back into the Oval Office).
Maybe you didn’t do those things, but the odds are far, far, far more likely you did. And not just one. All three. Every damn one.
Why are you dishonestly giving Clinton credit for those bills and not the GOP House and Senate that passed them?
Contract For America wasn’t a Clinton strategy, it was Newt’s.
Contract With America wasn’t a strategy for accomplishing anything but creating an excuse to cheat the activists who’d actually won that election. Hardly anybody had heard of it before the election. The ’94 election was actually won by a coalition of gun owners and pro-lifers who worked themselves half to death walking the streets and ringing doorbells. The “contract” allowed Republican office holders to pretend that Gingrich had won them the election, and avoid actually delivering on any of their promises to the activists who’d done the work.
And even that might have been alright if they’d taken the contract seriously. Just the balanced budget amendment alone would have been worth it. So, of course, Gingrich arranged for the amendment to be brought to the floor in multiple versions, so everybody who needed to could vote for it without risk of any one version passing.
His defense? They’d never promised to pass any of it, just that there would be votes… Never meant to pass any of it, would be closer to the truth.
BravoCharlieDelta : “Why are you dishonestly giving Clinton credit for those bills”
Why are you so damn ignorant?
“The Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993 was a federal law that was enacted by the 103rd United States Congress and signed into law by President Bill Clinton on August 10, 1993. It has also been unofficially referred to as the Deficit Reduction Act of 1993.
The bill stemmed from a budget proposal made by Clinton in February 1993; he sought a mix of tax increases and spending reductions that would cut the deficit in half by 1997. Though every congressional Republican voted against the bill, it passed by narrow margins in both the House of Representatives and the Senate. The act increased the top federal income tax rate from 31% to 39.6%, increased the corporate income tax rate, raised fuel taxes, and raised various other taxes. The bill also included $255 billion in spending cuts over a five-year period. The effects of the bill helped the US federal government to experience in 1998 its first budget surplus since the 1960s.”
Since you have problems processing information that challenges your relentless stupidity, BCD, I’ll pull out this relevant line :
“Though every congressional Republican voted against the bill, it passed by narrow margins in both the House of Representatives and the Senate.”
Re-read above and you see I also gave credit for the surpluses under Clinton to the earlier deficit bill signed by GHW Bush. Why? Because (unlike you) I know enough history to understand that credit was due. And (unlike you) I’m not dishonest enough to try and pretend otherwise.
Just a reminder that the US debt increased every year since 1957, including the year of this supposed “budget surplus”.
I guess it’s easy to create a “budget surplus” when you just pretend that hundreds of billions of dollars you are spending don’t count.
And speaking of Newt, recall that at the time he said, often and loudly, that Clinton was wrecking the economy, there would be all sorts of disasters, etc.
My contemporaneous recollection is that the budget was briefly balanced due to a goosed economy and tax receipts from the ” .com bubble “. That was due to crash, and in fact it duly crashed shortly after Clinton left office.
-dk
“The only way to pay for it all would be tax the middle class at the levels the EU does (plus a hefty tax hike on the 1%). ”
Unfortunately, one party believes that is not true.
Which would then mean that they would have to give credits for unrealized losses and what a mess that would become!
First of all, Brett, before you get too deep into conspiracy-land, bear in mind that this tax – Mandatory Repatriation Tax – was part of Trump’s Tax Cuts and Jobs Act of 2017, passed by the House and Senate when they both had Republican majorities. It’s been around a while without the heavens falling.
Second, there is actually a solid reason for this tax, which is part of an effort to reduce tax avoidance schemes by US corporations with foreign subsidiaries. Further it seems to be a one-off to deal with problems in transitioning to a new tax structure, not a permanent tax.
I guess the GOP’ers just did a lousy, careless job of writing the bill. I don’t think they were trying to pass a stealth tax.
Moore apparently got caught in some of the complexities, even though it really wasn’t after people like him.
Given government borrows proportional to GDP and not to any actual need (aside from largess for brownie points to get re-elected) there should not be any new taxes or tax increases until a blanced budget ammendment.
Why? Because government will spend all that while not reducing spending at all to compensate. Balanced budget is a fraudulent claim by politicians, who (as exemplified in the late 90s with the Internet boom) will quickly un-balance the budget whenever, in those rare cases, they find themselves magically with a balanced one.
“Hey, the budget is balanced!”
Politician, thinking: “How dat happen? No matter, we can borrow and spend up proportional to the gdp growth!”
But they DID pass a wealth tax, and that is unconstitutional whether or not you deem the reason for that violation “solid”.
And in fact the tax IS permanent, not transitory. Undistributed profits will continue to be taxable income for the Moores going forward, under the new tax regime, as I understand it.
But isn’t there a distinction between taxing hypothetical gains, as in appreciated art, stocks, and other investments, as opposed to actual income which the earners can’t get their hands on?
IANAA, but I can well imagine accountants quibbling over income which is turned over to a business for investment without the earner having any say in the matter beyond the initial contract. I don’t know about this particular case’s income, but suppose I hired on with the agreement that 20% of my income would be diverted to internal company investments in exchange for deferred income in 5 years. I earned that 20%, it is income, but the company may go broke before I ever see it, or the company may do so well that it grows by a factor of 10.
(I am really ignorant of these details!)
Both of these possibilities seem more like the wealth tax than an income tax. But if the employment contract instead said that the company did owe me that 20%, with or without interest, and had top priority in a bankruptcy, it would seem more like income than wealth.
Or what if an employment contract was structured such that pay was 20% less than standard, with a 100% bonus in five years? That wouldn’t count as income until five years later.
And that’s perfectly fair, because you couldn’t spend it until then.
“actual income which the earners can’t get their hands on?”
How do you pay the tax?
Assuming you don’t otherwise have the money, you borrow against the capital asset.
It’s only speculation that you will be able to.
This is not an employment contract case. It’s an investment with no liquid profits where the plaintiffs, being minority owners (I believe I’ve seen figures of 11% or 13% ownership) have no control over whether profits are reinvested or distributed as dividends. The majority opinion says the minimum ownership for the tax to apply (10%) means it is ok to treat them as if they have “some control” over that decision.
It looks like the case is funded by the Manhattan Institute, Competitive Enterprise Institute, and maybe others, as the amount at issue is too small to justify all the lawyering involved. They’ve picked a sympathetic plaintiff, but it is perhaps somewhat unusual for an American individual to own more than 10% of a majority American-owned foreign enterprise and yet have no control over whether profits are distributed. The Indian-American CEO of the company was also affected, but as 80% owner had more control, though the illiquidity of the reinvested profits makes his ability to pay unclear as well even at the 8% tax rate.
“The Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes on incomes, from whatever source derived, without apportionment among the several States, and without regard to any census or enumeration.”
This seems like an open and shut case: If you didn’t actually HAVE gains, there’s no income to tax!
Noun
enumeration (plural enumerations)
1. The act of enumerating, making separate mention, or recounting.
Synonyms: numbering, telling; see also Thesaurus:counting
2. A detailed account, in which each thing is specially noticed.
3. A recapitulation, in the peroration, of the heads of an argument.
4. (programming) A data type that allows variables to have any of a predefined set of values.
Synonym: enum
So under definition 4, they can assign any value to your income, and then tax you on that value. Democrat paradise.
My understanding is that the “census or enumeration” in that amendment is a direct reference to Article I, Section 9, Clause 4’s “Census or Enumeration”. In which case, they mean the Enumeration of Representatives (so California gets N1, Texas gets N2, …).
Yes, because the question here isn’t whether the federal government can tax fictional ‘income’, (It can.) but whether such fictional ‘income’ has to be apportioned on account of being a direct tax, not actually a tax on income.
I think I read somewhere in the briefs that $580k in company profits became $158k in income for the Moores despite their owning only 11% or 13% of the company. Not vouching for the exact numbers, but I gave that arithmetic the stink-eye at the time but have lost track of where I saw those numbers. Can anyone correct me or back me up on this?
It might seem obvious to someone who has no real depth of understanding of the subject, sure.
The point of pass-through taxation is pass on gain, without tax leakage, to the beneficial owners of an entity’s assets. The alternative to pass-through treatment is to tax the gain at the corporate/partnership level. It’s a fundamental law of tax – if there’s income, someone pays the income tax.
What the petitioners are trying to attempt here is a constitutional bank-shot that essentially vitiates modern tax accounting. So, you’d have an LLC or LP allocating income to its members/partners, rather than paying tax on its own income, while re-investing that income in its own business. The members/partners, who ordinarily would have to pay that income on a pass-through basis, win the constitutional argument, so that the Court essentially invalidates the tax rules that require them to pay taxes on that income. Thus, no one pays the tax, at either level – an enormous windfall and tax break for the wealthiest individuals in the U.S. economy.
How is it a windfall to them if the money never ended up in their hands? I’m not seeing the “allocating income to its members/partners” part of this scheme you’re proposing.
The corporation in question is actually a charitable enterprise which is planned to NEVER distribute any profits, all earnings in excess of expenses get rolled back into expanding it.
It’s not a charity, so far as can tell. There’s nothing stopping the owner (also an American) from liquidating and taking whatever profit (80% his) that he can manage.
It’s an Indian corporation and is subject so far as I can tell to Indian corporate taxes. So SimonP’s concern about profits going untaxed is nonsense.
The issue for the Moores is simply WHEN they will be taxed.
Brett reads ‘net’ into the text, as all pro textualists do.
So government can tax losses as income?
Sarcastr0 55 mins ago
Flag Comment Mute User
“Brett reads ‘net’ into the text, as all pro textualists do.”
Sacastro – that is a pretty chickenshit smear without any basis for your comment.
Sarcastr0, it would be perfectly textual to read the 16th amendment as permitting the federal government to tax income and ignore all losses, even to tax gross receipts and ignore expenses.
But this goes further, and taxes receipts that were never received! FICTIONAL income.
And even that the federal government could do, pursuant to a statute. It would just have to be apportioned between the states properly, as it would be a direct tax, NOT a tax on income.
You are assuming that “income” refers only to actual realized cash income. But that’s not the only definition in the world.
In effect, your argument is circular. It all comes from your definition.
Your problem is that you are pulling YOUR proposed definition still dripping out of your ass, while 16A “income” actually has had a preexisting accepted definition for over a century.
https://cei.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Circui-denial-of-rehearing-en-banc.pdf
So will you be able to deduct unrealized loses?
of course not –
Even if losses were allowed, the aggregate limitation on capital losses is $3,000 annually (aggregate allowable losses combining all capital gains and losses)
Another point regarding the lower capital gains tax rate vs ordinary income tax rates is that a significant portion of the capital gain can be due to inflation such that the economic gain is less than the taxable gain. This was especially true during periods of high inflation such as the 70’s and 80’s, often economic losses taxed as capital gains.
“It held that “realization of income is not a constitutional requirement” for Congress to lay an “income” tax ”
If it’s not realized, it’s not income. It never came in.
Yeah, so what’s you point?
If requiring a full background check, at your expense, and fingerprinting, to exercise your second amendment rights is not an infringement, then “coming in” is not a requirement for income.
It is like items manufactured in a state and only sold in that same state are actually part of interstate commerce.
In other words, Humpty Dumpty was right.
If the democrats want your money, they are going to come and take it.
“Yeah, so what’s you point?”
That the Ninth Circuit judges, who failed to understand even the simplest thing, are stupid at best.
“If the democrats want your money, they are going to come and take it.”
But if they want to be thieves and lawless totalitarians, we don’t have to play along with the fiction that they’re anything else. They tell themselves they’re The Good Guys.
Can’t wait for the Court to fuck this one up. Maybe a good time to look into which Supreme Court justices have wealth tied up in private investment funds. Perhaps Harlan Crow will have a view.
What’s the “originalist” take, I wonder? Pass-through corporations and partnerships weren’t a thing in 1920, therefore you can’t tax unrealized gains retained by them? Constitutionally-protected tax avoidance?
It’s more a textualist than originalist matter, no? If it’s not coming in, how the hell can it be “income”?
There’s a constitutional right for corporate income not to be taxed to the shareholders?
swood1000 2 mins ago
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“There’s a constitutional right for corporate income not to be taxed to the shareholders?”
16A limits the income subject to taxation to income earned by the individual. ie a ban on being taxed on someone else’s income. The corporation is a separate legal entity.
I’m looking for the part that says, “Congress must observe the fiction of the separate corporation person when taxing income.”
How about the part that says, “fictitious persons shall be treated more favorably than natural persons with respect to income tax”?
There is no requirement in the Constitution that corporate tax rates be lower than individual tax rates, if that’s what you’re asking. Or vice versa. So your whine has no relevance to this case.
“I’m looking for the part that says, “Congress must observe the fiction of the separate corporation person when taxing income.””
It’s not a fiction that the Moores don’t have access to the income of the Indian corporation. What’s therefor a fiction to pretend that its income is their income.
Or maybe, “The constitution permits income of partnerships to be taxed to partners but the income of corporations may not be taxed to shareholders (except in the case of the Subchapter S).”
Except when it is disregarded by people looking to skate on taxes?
Who could possibly commit an act as foul as to look for legal ways to reduce the payment of taxes?
Deadbeats, anti-government cranks, parasites, disaffected misfits, greedy bastards, antisocial malcontents . . . the list is long.
Whether certain tax dodges (such as confected pass-throughs, stepped-up basis, etc.) should be lawful (endorsed by modern society) is an issue worthy of illumination, examination, and debate.
Thank God that you and I are not like those others, looking for ways to reduce their taxes. Do you know that there are actually people who reduce their taxes by deducting the payment of mortgage interest or charitable contributions or IRA contributions or state income taxes, or who take a child tax credit? How can they live with themselves, disgusting swine!
If you can’t distinguish charitable donations and relatively small mortgage deductions or child deductions from wholesale tax avoidance schemes (disregarded entities, stepped-up basis, etc.), you might be a fan of the Volokh Conspiracy, a Republican, and a doomed culture war casualty railing about all of this damned modernity and progress in America.
Yes, I guess you’re right. Those who take a $20,000 annual mortgage interest deduction are righteous but those who take invest in municipal bonds, taking advantage of special tax provisions intended to help municipalities by driving investment their way, resulting in a $20,000 tax benefit, are deadbeats and greedy bastards.
You forgot to try to defend disregarded entities, stepped-up basis, carried interest, and similar tax dodges.
Carry on, clinger. Your betters will address tax issues as part of shaping American progress.
You forgot sons of Democratic Presidents. Or was Hunter included in one of the other categories?
Or maybe, “The constitution permits the income of corporations to be taxed to the shareholders if certain detailed technical requirements are not followed when forming the corporation, but when particular categories of undistributed earnings are repatriated to the U.S.—through a distribution or loan to U.S. shareholders, or an investment in U.S. property— U.S. shareholders who own at least 10% of a controlled foreign corporation (CFC) may not constitutionally be taxed on a proportionate share of those earnings.”
An LLC is a corporation, yet the owners pay tax on its profits.
An LLC is not, in fact, a corporation.
For state law purposes an LLC is always an LLC, though for federal income tax purposes, an election can be made to be taxed as C or S corporation. If such election is made, the LLC remains and LLC for state law purposes, with the exception of how each individual state recognizes a federal tax election for that states income tax.
It’s income to the entity that it’s passing through to its equityholders, who pay the tax at the individual level rather than at the corporate level. It’s designed to minimize tax leakage and generally beneficial to the owners of these vehicles (who might otherwise be subject to double taxation on the same income).
What the petitioners are trying to do is constitutionalize a new tax avoidance scheme.
The term “limited” in India is equivelant to regular corporation in the US. It is not a pass thru entity. The Corporation is paying the tax on the corporations income.
Its the same as you owning stock in BP or IBM. They are separate legal entities.
a) “Limited ” is the equivalent of a corporation under Indian law which is not a pass thru entity thus your comment regarding pass thru entities is not relevant.
b) corporations did exist in 1913 when the 16th amendment was passed.
Other than that, your meaningless smear on the SC justices means that you lack any objectivity
What a farce. “Income” is money that has “come in” to your hand, not money that you may (or may not) ever actually realize. Stocks go up, but, of course, they go down too.
Perhaps we should tax that lottery ticket you just bought as $500 million of “unrealized income”. Don’t worry, though, if it doesn’t hit, we’ll let you claim a credit next year.
The 9th Circuit court says that, “there is no blanket constitutional ban on Congress disregarding the corporate form to facilitate taxation of shareholders’ income.” So, they are “piercing the corporate veil,” so to speak, for certain purposes of taxation, making it different from the case of taxing property that has merely appreciated in value. The corporation definitely received income and the question was whether under the circumstances that can be attributed to the shareholders.
A stated intention to ““pierce the corporate veil” is no argument for any particular measure purporting to do so. The Moores have not received any income that they can spend or invest, either in the US or in India.
Economists generally accept the Haig-Simons definition of income, which is more or less the amount of increase in a taxpayer’s net worth over a designated period, and which therefore does not impose a realization requirement. Tax scholars have long debated the policy merits of applying this more expansive definition as opposed to that prescribed by Eisner. My own view is that Eisner is probably faithful to the constitutional meaning of income, which would have to be amended in order to subject unrealized gains to an unapportioned tax.
“Economists generally accept the Haig-Simons definition of income”
For what purpose? In terms of analyzing someone’s wealth, sure. In terms of taxation, however, why does that make any sense? What if the asset then goes down in value the next year — can you take a deduction? If not, then it’s a one-way ratchet wealth tax, which is not what the 16th Amendment contemplates.
No, for measuring income. The idea is that if my wealth at end year 1 is 10 and then is 15 at the end of year 2 the increase is income. And yes, the proper treatment of losses for legal tax purposes would have to be addressed, but it could be. As I said, however, I think Eisner was properly decided.
Well, the current case is about undistributed corporate income, not appreciated property. But the 16A says that the government may tax income. It doesn’t say that a loss in a given year must be permitted to be carried back or forward to reduce the tax payable in years in which there was income.
It doesn’t say that an unrealized “gain” is income, period.
Is that the definition those that drafted and passed the Sixteenth Amendment in 1909 were utilizing? I doubt it. Regardless, we have more than a 100 years of unbroken court precedent that “income”, in its Constitutional sense, must be “received”, and in an actual sense, not in some ephemeral or constructive sense.
Strange thing is, if the 16th Amendment hadn’t been passed, at this point we’d have an income tax anyway and even less chance of winning this argument.
Sometime in the 1930s Congress would have passed an income tax, using the same constitutional pretexts they used for other New Deal programs, and it would have passed the SC under threat of court-packing. The SC decision wouldn’t have depended on whether something is income, it would’ve been some indirect relationship to commerce.
Likely true. The Court was simply out of the “upholding the Constitution” business there, for a while. They mostly still are, when it comes to the federal government. Most constitution enforcement is against states.
I agree, so I’m not quite sure who you are arguing with.
Economists generally understand their own bottom line, and most of them are directly or indirectly paid by government.
Only Brett has the insights AND objectivity to really understand economics.
Another baseless smear
You must be proud of yourself
I criticized what Brett wrote – substituting his own judgement for that of actual economists due to claimed bias.
You as I recall are all about denying expertise while claiming it for yourself. In the end, you just another angry wrong guy with a real condescending shtick.
Whereas you are just a knob-licker extraordinaire living in a world where economic insights into incentives has no application to credentialed “economists”, because you say so.
“Economists generally accept the Haig-Simons definition of income”
Citation needed?
My understanding is that economists generally recognize the difficulties inherent in measuring income. They tend to prefer things that are easier to measure consumption (particularly like the discounted value of lifetime consumption, which tends to show up in a lot of models).
“Economists generally accept the Haig-Simons definition of income”
I think that’s true, though you should add consumption to change in net worth.
I think there are a number of complicating factors here. The first is defining “income” for tax purposes. This is, believe it or not, a complex business, which is why most tax “simplification” plans are DOA.
Another is that while individual taxes are based, mostly, on cash income, corporate taxes are based on idiosyncratic non-GAAP accrual accounting.
Add consumption to change in net worth? You’re double counting!
The idea in most macro models is that what people actually value is consumption. Income, to the extent that you can measure it, is what you are able to earn that you can use to afford consumption (with the remainder going into savings or taxes or something else I haven’t thought of). So income would typically include things like wages and salary, interest or dividend income, or the net proceeds from securities transactions. You wouldn’t add consumption to wages and salaries to get a measure of income…
The constitution isn’t for economic modeling. Economists are welcome to choose whatever metrics they wish.
When text is ambiguous, I say see what experts do with the same ambiguity.
You just kinda whine about it I guess.
-+2Exactly no one with a clue imagines that what some economist defines as “income” ought to affect what the 16th Amendment means by income. The fact that he and the 16A use the same word introduces no ambiguity into the meaning of the latter whatsoever.
I don’t need to guess why you pretend otherwise. You suck at the public teat and like more taxes to fill that teat and give you more resources to expend while doing so.
While this case, involves a foreign small business with a relatively small amount of income (none repatriated to the US), this situation would seem far from unusual. Many small businesses are set up as S-corporations, which are pass-through for tax purposes.
If the appellants win, then any pass-through tax law would appear to be unconstitutional.
A basic issue for public corporations is that it would make dividends even more tax-disadvantaged. Every corporation would just always keep its income, and shareholders would only realize personal income when they sold, perhaps borrowing in the meanwhile to finance their lifestyle.
Somebody above is pointing out to you that this wasn’t a pass through corporation, you’re just being misled by foreign terminology.
As I noted, this case doesn’t itself involve a pass-through corporation. But if the 16th Amendment prohibits taxing unrealized income, why wouldn’t that make the whole concept of pass-through corporations unconstitutional? Pass-through corporations are precisely a device for taxing unrealized income. If the United States can’t tax unrealized foreign gains, then why wouldn’t it also be unconstitutional for government to account for a corporation’s income, any corporation’s income, as if it had been passed through to the shareholders?
ReaderY 38 mins ago (edited)
Flag Comment Mute User
“As I noted, this case doesn’t itself involve a pass-through corporation. But if the 16th Amendment prohibits taxing unrealized income, why wouldn’t that make the whole concept of pass-through corporations unconstitutional? Pass-through corporations are precisely a device for taxing unrealized income. ”
ReaderY – you are mischaracterizing how pass thru entities are taxed in the US. The income a pass thru entity is taxed on is income that has been realized. With the exception of the case at hand, there is no provision that taxes unearned and/or unrealized income ( a few exceptions where recognition of income may be accelerated under 475f or 83b or 1256).
One big difference is that pass-through (partnership) treatment is an opt-in system. Equity holders elect it to avoid the double taxation problem that afflicts C-corp shareholders.
The issue with CFCs is they are usually set up in low- or no-tax jurisdictions to shelter income from US taxation — taxation that would have happened one way or the other if the CFC were domiciled in the US.
The question is: what is the difference between (a) a regular corporation and (b) an S-corporation or partnership, that results in a constitutional prohibition on flow-through income in the case of the former but not the latter?
Like I said above, since taxpayers intentionally choose the pass-through tax treatment, it would take a special kind of chutzpah to demand that undistributed earnings not be taxable.
The big difference with this Indian case is that they are changing the rules in the middle of the game, and making them retroactive to 1986(!). Also, this looks like a pretty sympathetic test case, since the usual CFC is a bunch of zillionaires setting up offshore tax shelters for the sole purpose of sheltering income. Here the CFC actually has a legitimate business and reason to be in India. If it actually pays Indian taxes that would be even more appealing.
There’s no indication that I saw in the briefs that the corporation isn’t paying Indian taxes.
But aren’t special kinds of chutzpah precisely what successful tax lawyers possess, in quantity?
Why shouldn’t the client be entitled to the best of both worlds, have cake and eat it too, if a lawyer can make an argument for it?
Swood –
In both cases – The realized income of the regular corporation is taxed and the realized income of the pass thru entity is taxed. Only the realized income is taxed, not the unrealized income. the difference is that the S corp, and partnership, its effectively an election on who pays the tax on the income (default taxed to the partners in the case of a partnership).
But some S-Corps, LLC’s, and partnerships are required to report on an accrual basis, so the owners may be taxed on unrealized profits.
the difference is that the S corp, and partnership, its effectively an election on who pays the tax on the income
And constitutionally, those corporations who elect not to have pass-through taxation may not have the income taxed in a pass-through manner?
The tax liabilities of the corporation are not at issue in this case.
Dunno where you’re getting the idea that anyone is arguing, or that it is any any way implied, that corporations can’t be taxed on income realized by a corporation.
Just another good example of why we need 87,000 more IRS agents.
the debt ceiling deal reduced the number of projected new agents (down by 30-40k as I recall). In either case, most of the new agents will be replacements for retirements and not actual increases in agents ( or only modest increase in agents)
Not to be a ball buster but do you have a cite for any of that?
Bumble – I tried to post a link – though the post went into moderation. google “debt ceiling irs ”
Should pull up several articles
Tried that in duckduckgo, came up with…
“…the IRS will now get nearly $59 billion over ten years for enforcement, modernization, etc., and not $80 billion. / It’s unclear how this will affect the IRS’s future activities. A Treasury official said that… it may cause the IRS to come back to Congress and ask for additional funds in six or so years.”
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/other/irs-loses-about-21-billion-due-to-debt-limit-deal-kiplinger-tax-letter/ar-AA1cDTk5
“Debt Deal Cuts $21 Billion Of IRS $80 Billion, 87,000 New IRS Agents Stay”
https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2023/05/28/debt-deal-cuts-21-billion-of-irs-80-billion-87000-new-irs-agents-stay/?sh=4e218be25011
But why 87,000 “stay” isn’t made clear.
We’re not getting 87,000 new IRA agents.
McCarthy and the RW noisemakers are outright lying. Don’t believe them, and don’t parrot those lies..
Much of the increase in staffing is in clerical, administrative, and IT roles. Plus the new hiring is over a 10-yer period, and much of it is, in fact, replacements.
The IRS, which is overseen by the Treasury Department, has shed about 13% of its staff since 2012. With about 79,000 current employees, its headcount has receded to near-1974 levels, the agency’s director told Congress earlier this year, despite growing revenue and some 14% more taxpayers filing returns in the last 10 years. Over the same period, the IRS’s budget has dropped from $14.3 billion to $13.7 billion in the 2021 fiscal year, or around 15% when adjusted for inflation, according to the agency. …
The proposed funding, which would let IRS hire some 87,000 people over the next decade, should help, employees said. That number includes replacing some 52,000 employees who are expected to leave or retire in coming years, as the workforce has aged amid budget declines.
If you’re going to provide a link please provide one that is believable. A sole IRS (not IRA thank God) agent claiming he had to by paper, pens and paperclips is bullshit.
https://www.irs.gov/statistics/irs-budget-and-workforce
For fuck’s sake.
FFS provide a relevant link. Is the IRS going to hire 87,000 agents with its $40B enforcement budget or not?
What the 9th circuit says is hogwash.
But with respect to the facts of the case is this unrealized income or is this a reinvestment of dividends?
I would say it was unrealized income.
The corporation in question is a charitable venture designed to invigorate the Indian economy. All profits are reinvested in expanding the venture, they not only haven’t been distributed to date, they are never going to be distributed, and the stock holders knew this going in. “Investing” in it was no more than a charitable donation.
Pretty ballsy to tax somebody on profits they didn’t actually receive from a charitable donation.
I don’t understand why they didn’t declare themselves a non-profit to begin with.
IT’S NOT A NON-PROFIT!
The owners can take out as much profit as they want.
“4 M OORE V . UNITED S TATES I. This case begins with a husband and wife’s investment in an overseas company formed to empower small-scale farmers in impoverished regions of India. Charles and Kathleen Moore own a 13% stake in KisanKraft Machine Tools Private Limited, a small company headquartered in Bangalore, India. KisanKraft was formed in 2006 by Charles’s friend and former coworker, Ravindra “Ravi” Kumar Agrawal, to import and distribute affordable farming equipment. Moved by Ravi’s vision for helping farmers, the Moores invested $40,000 in KisanKraft and retained about 11% of the common shares in the company. Ravi and his wife moved to India to manage the company’s day-to-day operations as approximately 80% owners. Under Ravi’s leadership, KisanKraft’s revenues grew each year from 2006 to 2017. True to the original business plan, Ravi reinvested everything in the company. By 2017, KisanKraft employed over 300 people across 14 regional offices, distributing agricultural equipment to thousands of dealers. The Moores received updates and annual financial statements, but they never exercised any control over the company’s earnings or operations, and never received any distributions, dividends, or other payments. They were content with supporting their friend’s “noble purpose . . . to improve the lives of small and marginal farmers in India.””
It was, realistically, a charity, however it was organized. From the perspective of the Moores, anyway. They got no profits from it, they were going to get no profits from it, ever.
It’s not a charity.
See the last link in the article
Because you’re so busy:https://cei.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Cir.-court-ruling.pdf
Wait. You put the word “logic” in the same sentence as “the ninth circuit”?