The Volokh Conspiracy
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Unanimous Supreme Court Affirms Right to Challenge Federal Agencies in Federal Court
Those claiming they are subject to unconstitutional agency proceedings need not suffer through agency proceedings before bringing their claims to federal court.
Yesterday a unanimous Supreme Court held that those subject to federal agency adjudicaiton can challenge the constitutionality of such adjudication in federal court before such adjudication concludes. What some had billed as an attack on the viability of the adminstrative state was not viewed that way by the justices, who all agreed the agencies' attempts to insulate themselves from federal judicial review lacked legal basis.
Justice Elena Kagan wrote the opinion for the Court in Axon v. Federal Trade Commission (which was combined with Securities and Exchange Commission v. Cochran). It is a clear and engaging opinion that makes the underlying issues readily accessible, even to those with no particular affinity for administrative law. Justice Thomas wrote a separate concurrence, and Justice Gorsuch wrote an opinion concurring in the judgment.
The introduction to Justice Kagan's opinion lays out the issues rather clearly:
In each of these two cases, the respondent in an administrative enforcement action challenges the constitutional authority of the agency to proceed. Both respondents claim that the agencies' administrative law judges (ALJs) are insufficiently accountable to the President, in violation of separation-of-powers principles. And one respondent attacks as well the combination of prosecutorial and adjudicatory functions in a single agency. The challenges are fundamental, even existential. They maintain in essence that the agencies, as currently structured, are unconstitutional in much of their work.
Our task today is not to resolve those challenges; rather, it is to decide where they may be heard. The enforcement actions at issue were initiated in the Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) and the Federal Trade Commission (FTC). Most objections to those Commissions' proceedings follow a well-trod path. As prescribed by statute, a party makes its claims first within the Commission itself, and then (if needed) in a federal court of appeals. The parties here, however, sidestepped that review scheme. Seeking to stop the administrative proceedings, they instead brought their claims in federal district court. The question presented is whether the district courts have jurisdiction to hear those suits—and so to resolve the parties' constitutional challenges to the Commissions' structure. The answer is yes. The ordinary statutory review scheme does not preclude a district court from entertaining these extraordinary claims.
Under existing precedent, whether the existence of the agency adjudicative scheme precludes district court jurisdiction over related suits against agencies is determined by the so-called Thunder Basin factors. While the proper application of this test may be unclear in some cases, Justice Kagan's opinion makes clear that there was no real question how these factors should apply here. There was no basis for forcing Axon and Cochran to subject themselves to allegedly unconstitutional agency proceedings before bringing their constitutional challenges.
From Justice Kagan's opinion:
The harm Axon and Cochran allege is "being subjected" to "unconstitutional agency authority"—a "proceeding by an unaccountable ALJ." . . . That harm may sound a bit abstract; but this Court has made clear that it is "a here-and-now injury." . . . And—here is the rub—it is impossible to remedy once the proceeding is over, which is when appellate review kicks in. Suppose a court of appeals agrees with Axon, on review of an adverse FTC decision, that ALJ-led proceedings violate the separation of powers. The court could of course vacate the FTC's order. But Axon's separation-of-powers claim is not about that order; indeed, Axon would have the same claim had it won before the agency. The claim, again, is about subjection to an illegitimate proceeding, led by an illegitimate decisionmaker. And as to that grievance, the court of appeals can do nothing: A proceeding that has already happened cannot be undone. Judicial review of Axon's (and Cochran's) structural constitutional claims would come too late to be meaningful.
Justice Thomas wrote a separate concurrence acknowledging that existing precedent required application of the Thunder Basin factors, while reiterating his "grave doubts about the constitutional propriety of Congress vesting administrative agencies with primary authority to adjudicate core private rights with only deferential judicial review on the back end." Writes Thomas:
whether any form of administrative adjudication is constitutionally permissible likely turns on the nature of the right in question. If private rights are at stake, the Constitution likely requires plenary Article III adjudication. Conversely, if privileges or public rights are at stake, Congress likely can foreclose judicial review at will.
Thus, as Thomas often does, he suggests this is an issue the Court should confront in a future case.
Justice Gorsuch only concurred in the judgment, arguing that the Court should disregard the Thunder Basin factors because Congress has provided for federal jurisdiction over claims such as those brought by Axon and Cochran under 28 U.S.C. Section 1331.
As Gorsuch writes:
As the Court sees it, Ms. Cochran, Axon, and others like them must satisfy not only §1331. They must also satisfy a judge-made, multi-factor balancing test. One assembled from remarks scattered here and there across the pages of Thunder Basin Coal Co. v. Reich, 510 U. S. 200 (1994). And one, we are told, designed to ferret out whether the legislators who adopted the Federal Trade Commission Act in 1914 and the Securities Exchange Act in 1934 harbored an "implici[t]" wish to "ous[t]" district courts of jurisdiction in favor of agency proceedings. Ante, at 7. So, yes, the law on the books may promise you the right to be heard in a court of law. But sometimes that doesn't count for much. Sometimes judges can shunt you to an agency instead—so long as a test we have fabricated suggests to us that is what Congress really wanted. . . .
No one disputes that §1331 represents a valid exercise of Congress's authority to regulate the jurisdiction of the district courts. No one questions that §1331 permits cases like those before us to proceed. No Member of the Court points to any statute Congress has adopted that speaks otherwise. Under the law, that should be the end of the matter. . . .
At bottom, Thunder Basin rests on a view that it is sometimes more important to allow agencies to work without the bother of having to answer suits against them than it is to allow individuals their day in court. But when Congress holds that view, it does not ask us to juggle a variety of factors and then guess at the implicit intentions of legislators past. It simply tells us.
Justice Gorsuch also explains why the approach adopted in these sorts of cases matters.
While the Court reaches the right result today, its choice of the wrong path matters. Not just because continuing to apply the Thunder Basin factors leaves the law badly distorted. It also matters because Thunder Basin's throw-itin-a-blender approach to jurisdiction imposes serious and needless costs on litigants and lower courts alike.
Jurisdictional rules, this Court has often said, should be "clear and easy to apply." . . . For parties, "[c]omplex jurisdictional tests complicate a case, eating up time and money as [they] litigate, not the merits of their claims, but which court is the right court to decide those claims." . . . For courts, jurisdictional rules "mark the bounds" of their "'adjudicatory authority.'". . . Judges therefore "benefit from straightforward rules under which they can readily assure themselves of their power to hear a case," . . . while "adventitious" rules leave them with "almost impossible" tasks to perform that squander their limited resources,
There are many words to describe the Thunder Basin factors, but "clear and easy to apply" are not among them. . . .
Justice Gorsuch concludes:
When Congress withholds jurisdiction, we must respect its choice. But when Congress grants jurisdiction to the Nation's courts, we must respect that choice too. We have no authority to froth plain statutory text with factors of our own design, all with an eye to denying some people the day in court the law promises them. Respectfully, this Court should be done with the Thunder Basin project. I hope it will be soon.
While the Axon decision is solely concerned with where claims challenging the constitutionality of agency structure and composition may be brought, a consequence of this decision is that such claims--particularly those challenging tenure protections for administrative law judges--will likely return to the Supreme Court sooner rather than later. When those cases arrive, a unanimous judgment seems much less likely.
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"What some had billed as an attack on the viability of the adminstrative state"
Well I sure as hell hope so. It should be attacked and dismantled at every opportunity possible.
90% of the regulatory state lacks legal basis except for applying pretzel logic to the Commerce Clause.
Yes. Most of the administrative rules (for example, TSA bullshit) were not made by Congress, and are thus morally and legally invalid.
If administrative law judges were subject to Senate confirmation, would tenure protection be appropriate then?
Short answer - No
article 2 v article 3
Somebody remind me of the relevant details regarding the SCOTUS case regarding the attempt to create a post-2008 financial regulator that was freed from Presidential control. Judged not legit, as I recall.
That kind of deeply cynical, profound scammery is the poster child for “We love democracy. Until we don’t.”
Winning an election and using your simple majority to spin off something quasi-autonomous only has one meaning: insulating it from changes in the Will of the People.
You don’t love democracy! You are a tyrant lickspittle, adopting techniques tyrants in Venezuela, Turkey, Russia, Nazi Germany used. Win the election, start working to insulate from future changes by that very same democracy.
We love democracy. As long as it grants us power. Ever-increasing power. Then as we lose power, we no longer love it.
You are the horrors of human history.
The Statists and bootlickers will say these functions are too important to be subject to politics.
I have mixed feelings about the administrative state but please cut the crap about how it’s an attack on democracy. Conservatives hate democracy even more than liberals do which is why they support the electoral college and two senators per state. They know the voters would permanently hand them their heads if we ever ditched the electoral college and enacted proportional Senate representation.
So conservatives, if you want to oppose the administrative state, knock yourselves out. I won’t even completely disagree with you. Just please can the hypocrisy about how much you love democracy. You don’t.
It's a REPUBLIC.....
No one loves pure democracy since Athens.
Why don't you know this?
I didn’t say pure democracy; I said democracy. In point of fact, you don’t like either. There’s precious little pure anything.
Correct. I don't like pure democracy or even democracy. I like Constitutional Republics with representation and functioning checks and balances.
Which we haven't seen in a few generations.
No, you talk about purging libs too much to be anything like into any of that shit.
You are too reactionary to really have a preferred system - it’s whatever you feel will own the libs today.
Sarcastro is right. You’d favor abolishing all checks and balances if you thought it would result in all libs being purged from the public square. Hell, you’d favor Mussolini if he gave you policies you like.
Dunno if you noticed, but BCD doesn't even have policy preferences, just hostility. To liberals, gays, and Jews.
As pure a reactionary with no ideological core as you'll find in the wild.
You’re right; my mistake.
Progs chittering in agreement with each other isn't the good look they imagine it is.
Haha yeah I've never advocated for any policies!
Good one, Bootlicker.
Obsessing over gay people and federal employees is not a policy preference.
Concern trolling and tone policing isn't either.
This is actually not a bad point. Except for the concern trolling bit - I'm pretty sincere.
I'm more into facts and ideology and institutions than pushing a particular policy. Because how else can you debate policy than based on ideology/values and facts?
But I do have policies I consistently argue for. You, on the other hand, don't. Just angry, mostly. And when you do, it's not consistent except you want to make liberals unhappy.
Sarcastr0: "I’m pretty sincere."
ROFL!
Any examples of stuff I've said you don't think I believe? Or are you back to your lazy 'I'd rather insult than engage' thing.
Because I'm happy to mute you again if you're going to turn your brain back off.
Checks and balances is one thing.
Making up laws out of thin air is another thing entirely.
This week’s EPA 67% of cars should be electric by 2032 pipe dream. There’s no basis for them to do something that big st all, but here we are.
That’s the administrative state crap that the courts need to stop.
Regulations are not 'making up laws out of thin air. Regulations have plenty of rules governing their legality.
And you're wrong about what the EPA did.
Here is DMN explaining this on Thursday. It's like right below one of your posts.
https://reason.com/volokh/2023/04/13/thursday-open-thread-131/?comments=true#comment-10018139
I’m not wrong about the intent of what they did. They explicitly said it.
Completely changing the automotive industry and forcing something people don’t want down their throats is must certainly creating new regulation.
Pure democracy would be abolishing Congress and replacing it with voting machines in every home so everyone can vote on everything. I doubt anyone of any political persuasion would think that’s a good idea. I certainly wouldn’t.
See Malka Older's Centenal Cycle trilogy for an exploration of this idea.
Read the constitution Krychek, every state with below average population has a veto on a proportional Senate. It's the only part of the constitution that can not be amended without effectively unanimous consent.
Take it up with the constitutional convention not conservatives.
The point is rhetorical, not constitutional - you cant whinge about the will of the people while leaning so hard on countermajoritarian institutions.
"Leaning hard on countermajoritatian institutions"?
No more than the Democrats do. The GOP has control of the majoritarian house right now, while the Democrats have control of the oligarchic Senate, with occasional buttressing by the Vice President.
No, I'm quite comfortably saying that the ones both yelling the loudest about populism and indulging in the most anti-majoritarian and anti-local control policies are both the GOP.
This is not something that is symmetrical between the two ideologies.
You're comfortable lying but those are lies just the same.
OK, you'd back do doing your gandy thing.
Lame.
Well the most local of local control is the property owner of course.
But I hardly think that's what you mean.
I mean, neither side is quite so crazy as to get rid of property regulations.
But luckily my point is comparative. And the GOP is both more populist in rhetoric and more authoritative in deed.
Yeah, I'm not seeing the more authoritative in deed.
You got Democrats and greens outlawing new gas hookups in cities across the country.
Do you think vaccine mandates and lockdowns were an aberration? Just a one off response? Or did immediately progressivea start talking about climate lockdowns.
And don't claim republicans are just as culpable dragooning tech companies into government censors, they, rightfully, wouldn't get the time of day. But Democrats get meetings in the executive suite and carte blanche.
I don’t deny what you said. Indeed, I am constantly reminding people democracy is an abstraction of might makes right, and should be treated as such, as dangerous.
51% and therefore you get to wield infinite power is the desire of tyrants…and corruption who hungers for power so they can get in the way until they are paid to get back out of the way.
That’s why you start with ideas like rights are inherent to you, and not a gift from someone else, or the government, and exist prior to it. Then you create a government and give it certain powers and no others, as decided by supermajority, since, if you can’t get most people to agree government should have a power, it probably shouldn’t.
There is a big role for democracy, but it isn’t 51% vox populi vox dei. That's almost mathematically synonymous with a charismatic demagogue's tyranny.
After Trump, the idea that the electoral college protects us from dangerous demagogues is laughable. In his case the EC gave us a dangerous demagogue.
I agree that there are some subjects that should be off the political table like free speech and equal protection but you do that by having a strong bill of rights and an independent judiciary that enforces it, not by telling the majority it can’t choose its own president.
For everything else the remedy is another election in two years.
Trump is a dangerous demagogue?
Wtf. Who has us teetering on WW3?
The most dangerous threat to America during the Trump years were the deranged Democrats and their footsoldiers.
You people live in a different universe. This country is forever split because half of you live in a false reality.
'This country is forever split because half of you live in a false reality.'
You think Michelle Obama is a man.
I’ll be happy to send you a mirror for your next birthday.
You sure aren't using it!
The idea than an "independent judiciary" will necessarily be a defender instead of an opponent of "a strong bill of rights" is a positively weird religious belief. As with most evidence-free assertions the question to ask is "Cui bono?"
Maybe it’s because of when I grew up but it’s been my observation that the judiciary has been far more willing to care about individual rights than the legislature has. Restrictions on individual rights only make it to the courts because legislators pass them.
And while I too believe the courts should have been more assertive in defending individual rights than they have been, they have still done a better job than the politicians have.
The claim than an “independent judiciary” will necessarily be a defender instead of an opponent of “a strong bill of rights” isn’t a comparison with politicians but an absolute claim. And, anyway, we now live in the present and not the past.
And by the way, there have been several comments here about why doesn't Congress fix the administrative state. Congress can't fix the administrative state because it's gridlocked and paralyzed. It's gridlocked and paralyzed because someone actually thought it would be a good idea to allow Sheepdip, Wyoming to cancel New York City in the Senate.
We are increasingly seeing Congress voluntarily relinquish its authority to agencies and other entities precisely because Congress is unable or unwilling to make hard political choices itself. That, in turn, is a function of the gridlock you naturally get when the political minority has a veto.
Congress doesn't fix itself because your second reason, not your first.
"Congress can’t fix the administrative state because it’s gridlocked and paralyzed. It’s gridlocked and paralyzed because someone actually thought it would be a good idea to allow Sheepdip, Wyoming to cancel New York City in the Senate."
It seems much more likely that Corrupt York City would favor a very powerful administrative state than Sheepdip, Wyoming.
I wouldn’t assume that to be true at all. Sheepdip runs on federal money much of which comes from Manhattan taxpayers. The red states may give lip service to hating the big bad feds, but without all those federal dollars they’d be dead in the water.
Sheepdip, WY would do just fine without the Federal government. As we have found out about Russia's oil and gas, wool and mutton have a value not dependent on Washington DC's whims.
So why does all that federal money flow to red states?
The subject was the independent viability of Sheepdip, not the balance of payments between DC and the subservient dependency in Cheyanne that carries out its whims. Also see this:
https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/502321-no-blue-states-do-not-bailout-red-states/
Krychek- The imbalance you refer to is almost entirely because military bases get put places they are cheaper, and people retire to places with lower costs of living. Maybe add in a bit of highway funding for good measure.
"So why does all that federal money flow to red states?"
1)Because God put Yellowstone in a red state, and the feds won't give up title.
2)Ditto for lots of other parks, national forests, etc.
3)Because Chicago didn't want ICBM bases put in Cook County.
4)Because NYC didn't want Yucca Flats or Hanford next door.
5)Because as soon as they retire people have the sense to move to red states.
OK, those are all tongue in cheek, but this has been discussed here before: you can't just compare dollars in/dollars out.
FE Warren AFB wasn't put next door to Cheyenne as a favor to Wyoming. Sure, the people stationed there spend their money in Cheyenne, but it's not like it's there instead of on the Magnificent Mile because Wyoming elbowed Illinois aside to grab those sweet Ground Zero ICBM dollars.
When Special Agent Smith retires from a career in the LA FBI office and retires to Pascagoula, it's not really a 'let's rob people in LA and send the loot to MS' kind of thing.
When we spend money to build and maintain the interstate through Nebraska, people from outside Nebraska use it as well (IIRC, less than 10% of the traffic on I-80 in Nebraska is intrastate)(cue Mr. Lathrop, who denied that the last time this subject came around, even when supplied with a .gov publication).
When we buy a B2 from Northrup, is that a subsidy for wherever Northrup is headquartered - CA probably? Well, who are their suppliers and where are they? Where do Northrup retirees live?
How about Wall Street bailouts? Are they a subsidy to NY, or to all the people across the country with IRAs at the brokerages?
I honestly don't know - trying to do an honest accounting for all the above would be really hard, and maybe impossible. But a simple dollars in/dollars out accounting obscures too much to be remotely useful.
I partially agree with you, but WHY that’s the dynamic doesn’t change the fact that red states run on blue money.
And if you look at which states have the highest number of people on welfare that’s even more the case.
"but WHY that’s the dynamic doesn’t change the fact that red states run on blue money."
Citation needed!
Let's say the feds want to buy, I dunno, toilet paper to put in the federal restrooms. They ask for bids and the low bidder is Acme TP Inc, located in Ogden Utah, and the feds mail a check for $100M to Ogden, and trucks full of TP start arrived at federal buildings all over the country..
Characterizing that as the feds subsidizing Utah to the tune of $100M is just nonsense. For one thing, Acme isn't getting that check to spend at the casino - it's $100M cash going in, and $100M of TP coming out. When I go grocery shopping, the store isn't a charity - I give them money and leave with groceries. Your accounting is ignoring the outbound goods.
It's even more complicated than that - Acme's corporate headquarters is in Ogden, but it has paper mills in North Carolina, Maine, Oregon, and Minnesota. You're going to have to do a deep dive into Acme's books to have a clue where the $100M is actually going. Geeze, I bet a heckuva a lot of the companies getting federal money are chartered in Delaware. Does that mean Delaware is slurping at the trough?
And you're counting, say, the salaries of IRS auditors in Massachusetts as a subsidy to Massachusetts. But if we ask the people in Massachusetts if they would like to give up that subsidy and have those auditors be a windfall for some other state, I bet they would be elated to let some other state be the recipient of the fed's generosity. And is it really fair to call it a subsidy when you are forcing it on unwilling people?
Or all the millions we have spent at Yucca Flats - the locals there are fighting it tooth and nail.
A few decades from now Sarcastro retires and decides to pursue his lifelong hobby of bass fishing by moving to rural Alabama, or get closer to the jazz scene and moves to New Orleans or buys 20 acres in the Finger Lakes and raises apples. You are saying that mailing his pension check is a subsidy to AL/LA/NY. But it's not charity, it's repaying a debt for his years of faithful service in the swamps of DC (I mean, I've lived there ... what a nasty climate). If I loan you money when I live in one state, and you pay it back after I move to another state, that isn't a subsidy to the state I'm in when you pay it back.
My Dad served in the Army of Occupation in both Germany and Japan. He was a legal resident of Illinois then (and for most of his military career, even though he never lived in Illinois again after leaving for boot camp). Was his salary a subsidy to Germany or Japan (who certainly didn't invite him!), or to Illinois?
Etc, etc, etc. You can't just hand wave away all those details.
“Sheepdip Wyoming can cancel New York City in the Senate”.
As does Buttfuck Vermont cancel Texas.
As I’ve said, your political philosophy is dangerous to me I appreciate anything that damps it.
The fatal error you are making is assuming that if Congress cannot agree on somethin that is still must be done. The whole point of the Framers intent was to make things VERY difficult to do. If Congress cannot agree on something then it it just something that does not get addressed. That's how it's supposed to work, not we'll just find another means to accomplish our goal. That's the very definition of Tyranny.
I thought this issue was already decided, but a suit called National Association of Consumer Advocates et al. v. Consumer Finance Protection Bureau seems to still be in the hopper. Though I could be wrong about that.
What’s to stop Congress from establishing Article III courts for specified areas of administrative law? Then get experienced administrators/practitioners on these courts. Put them under the Supreme Court, but otherwise don’t allow rival jurisdictions.
Thus you get the benefit of judicial hearings *and* the benefits of administrative expertise.
What's stopping Congress is the fact that the lifetime appointments in the House or Senate are nothing but grifts and vehicles to build family and generational wealth.
Real governance happens in independent agencies by unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats and the occasional judge.
There is the Federal Circuit now for some administrative appeals.
"Then get experienced administrators/practitioners on these courts."
They cannot bind the President's hands on selection criteria. I guess the Senate could try to but I'd bet against them being effective at it.
Hey, Adler, learn to use "[show more]".
So SCOTUS is all MAGAS?
Who else would interfere with the administrative state?
HOW DARE YOU!!!
It's an attack on Our Sacred Democracies to make accountable the unelected and unaccountable Deep State.
Wow, what next? Lions and lambs getting it on? I mean, if they're in love.....
Unanimous! That's awesome. Those defending the current reach of the administration state should not how far out on an unsupported branch they are.
Yes, the usual knee-jerk commentors around here will have a hard time dealing with this. When you've lost Kagan and Sotamayor, you are lost.
This decision has nothing to do with the "reach of the administrative state." The only thing it says is that if you're challenging the constitutionality of the administrative scheme, you don't need to have the merits of the agency's allegations against you adjudicated by the agency before you can bring the challenge in court.
I know what the decision holds. I also know that those who want a particular position put up as many roadblocks as they can to changing that position.
Who do you think will have a hard time dealing with this?
This decision wasn't really hot on the radar of the VC until today.
We'll see over the next few years if Sotomayor and Kagan agree with what I'm sure is your view on the administrative state. I think your assertion of "losing Sotomayor and Kagan" based on this decision is a little ridiculous.
Of course it has to do with the "reach of the administrative state." The administrative state went all the way to SCOTUS to defend the proposition that you do have to submit to a colonoscopy by the administrative state before you - or your grandchildren - get a chance to make your case in federal court.
ALJs were not actually some Deep State plan.
What a gift you have for missing an inconvenient point.
Which is that the apparatchiks of today, not when ALJs were created, really thought it was appropriate to deny, today, that a litigant could go to federal court to challenge the constitutionality of their proceedings against said litigant, until those proceedings were over.
They went to SCOTUS, today, not to defend their own constitutionality, but to defend their claimed immunity from challenge until the colonoscopy was completed. Today.
This didn’t happen by accident. Somebody took the decision to litigate this case, today, a case that was such a slam dunk against them that it went down 9 to zip, by the simple application of a long standing precedent.
It sends a message. If you challenge our power to insert tubes into your rear end without reference to the courts, we are going to make you suffer and pay, to the full extent of our ability. Be warned, little person.
Yiu don’t understand the question presented, how it differs from the pleadings, and I’m not sure of you know what ALJs do if you compare them to the USSR in any way. Read the OP.
This is going to have a marginal effect, unless you are in some agency’s office of legal counsel; them it will be annoying.
I know people who don’t like the administrative state are so out there they don’t get many wins, but you don’t get to make up that this was a huge case and we were in a deep state tyranny until the Court stepped in.
1. ALJs did not litigate these cases to SCOTUS. That was done by the apparatchiks of the FTC and the SEC, aka the administrative state.
2. Of course it's going to have a marginal effect because the dark side lost.
3. If the dark side had won, that would have been a giant step deeper into darkness, for it would have confirmed that the administratative state gets to be judge, jury and executioner, until you little people run out of time and money.
Yeah, maybe don't put this like good versus evil. It's kinda interesting legally, it's nothing anywhere near that dramatic.
No, if the agencies won, agencies would not be immune from litigation. Yes, it will be inconvenient, so the agencies didn't want it. THIS IS ALL IN THE OP.
If you're angry at the administrative state, *learn something about administrative law* don't just make it up based on what you want to be mad at.
"It’s kinda interesting legally, it’s nothing anywhere near that dramatic. "
Easy to say if you're not caught in the snare.
Is there a snare here? Has there been a huge outcry about the unfairness of ALJ’s?
Maybe there was and it just didn’t show up here, but this seems a lot like after the fact mountain-out-of-molehilling.
I don't always agree with ReaderY's takes, but his understanding and mine align in his post below.
How would it have been a "step deeper" in any direction, since it would have retained the status quo?
If the decision had been different and no one going forward could challenge the constitutionality of agency actions until the agency had completed torturing its victims then that wouldn't have been a "step into darkness" because it would have "retained the status quo" where we were already deep in darkness? Is that your argument?
I should have thought a result found unanimously by SCOTUS, explicitly as a straightforward application of existing precedent, would be the result typically described as the status quo.
It escapes me how the opposite finding could reasonably be described as the status quo.
Lee - read the OP. This was a narrower decision than was asked for. Hence the consensus.
Yes, my argument in fact is that keeping the status quo cannot represent a step deeper.
Did the opinion acknowledge that it was a change in the status quo?
I've now listened to some of the opinion (and dozed through some of it) and Kagan certainly seems to claim that it is no change in the status quo. Which is a claim that the opposite conclusion would have been "a step into darkness".
But of course that gloss on it may be untruthful to some degree.
The Cochran story as retailed late in the opinion (or maybe an assent) seems to involve a claim that a lot of unaddressed forgery went on. She apparently says she joined a company as a part-time accountant and its boss reorganized it without her knowledge to make her a purported principal so that the firm could represent itself as consisting of a number of CPAs. Faced with the options of staying at the same salary or quitting she quit and heard no more of the matter until the Feds came knocking. So she was fined $22k or so for work she had nothing to do with. She says. This attack on the authority of the agency is purportedly the only way avoid a second agency trial, the first "judge" having been deemed improperly appointed and his trial voided.
This is from memory, my being too lazy atm to locate the text in the opinions.
It is a clear and engaging opinion that makes the underlying issues readily accessible, even to those with no particular affinity for administrative law.
Kagan and Roberts should write all the opinions.
So long as Uncle Clarence gets to tell them what to write.
So your preference is to have no opinions to the right of Roberts?
Mine is to have no opinions to the left of Thomas.
He was talking about clarity of writing, not partisanship.
I know. But his prescription for better writing had implications that sprung immediately to mind.
I don't want "better writing" if it comes with a big helping of Roberts' dishonesty.
Great, now do standing.
I saw an interesting question on standing on an environmental suit.
Concerned Household Electricity Consumers Council v. EPA is a consumer group suing the EPA over the CO2 endangerment finding claiming an injury because the EPA's response will raise power prices.
To show standing they have to "prove" electricity prices will rise and injure them, which while obvious may not be a slam dunk.
But "any person or environmental advocacy organization can obtain standing to challenge environmental regulations by the simple assertion of interest in a clean and healthy environment."
Hardly seems fair.
https://wattsupwiththat.com/2023/04/15/oral-argument-in-checc-v-epa-the-issue-of-standing/
It is similar to the mantra of Zardoz: The airbreather standing is good! The taxpayer standing is evil!
How about a motorist challenge to the new 2/3 electric vehicle mandate?
Or a citizen's challenge to the effects of ICE polliution?
Just a reminder that every time a politician gives a speech proposing something doesn’t mean there’s suddenly a “mandate” that courts have constitutional power to adjudicate.
Even if the politician is the President.
There is no such mandate, as you've already been told.
Can you please share another feasible way to meet the emissions standards other than pumping out that many EVs? Otherwise, it is indeed a de facto mandate.
Whether or not EVs would be necessary in order to meet that target, it's still not a mandate; it's nothing more than a proposed rule.
Ah, so the dodge is merely temporal -- it's inescapable that this is what the admin wants to impose. See you after notice/comment.
It’s just an extension of the existing framework, too. CAFE standards.
You know how American-made sedans seem to be crap compared to imports? Yet American-made trucks and SUVs are good?
Apparently, that’s because of the CAFE standards, US manufacturers make cheap junk smaller cars and even sell them at a loss, so that the government will allow them to continue selling their profitable trucks and SUVs where they have the best product and dominate the market. Because the standards are applied to your “fleet.” So government is hamstringing US industry as always, and of course they’re only looking to make it a hundred times worse.
Edit: here’s an article from 32 years ago, everything they said was accurate. https://www.heritage.org/environment/report/auto-cafe-standards-unsafe-and-unwise-any-level
Wonder if this could be used with some of the anti-male OCR mandates....
This unanimous decision is hardly a step towards “dismantling the administrative state.” It simply reflects that when a plaintiff is claiming an administrative tribunal is illegally constituted, the tribunal itself cannot decide the question.
Administrative tribunals are simply a kind of Article I court. And Article I courts are nothing new. They have been with this country since the Founding. Their constitutionality is well-established.
"Administrative tribunals are simply a kind of Article I court."
They are? Under what authority? Isn't that part of what is being questioned?
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/438/478/
Thanks, but tell me how this addresses the questions I asked.
"MR. JUSTICE WHITE delivered the opinion of the Court.
This case concerns the personal immunity of federal officials in the Executive Branch from claims for damages arising from their violations of citizens' constitutional rights. Respondent [Footnote 1] filed suit against a number of officials in the Department of Agriculture claiming that they had instituted an investigation and an administrative proceeding against him in retaliation for his criticism of that agency. The District Court dismissed the action on the ground that the individual defendants, as federal officials, were entitled to absolute immunity for all discretionary acts within the scope of their authority. The Court of Appeals reversed, holding that the defendants were entitled only to the qualified immunity available to their counterparts in state government. Economou v. U.S. Department of Agriculture, 535 F.2d 688 (1976). Because of
Page 438 U. S. 481
the importance of immunity doctrine to both the vindication of constitutional guarantees and the effective functioning of government, we granted certiorari. 429 U.S. 1089."
There can be little doubt that the role of the modern federal hearing examiner or administrative law judge within this framework is "functionally comparable" to that of a judge. His powers are often, if not generally, comparable to those of a trial judge: he may issue subpoenas, rule on proffers of evidence, regulate the course of the hearing, and make or recommend decisions. See § 556(c). More importantly, the process of agency adjudication is currently structured so as to assure that the hearing examiner exercises his independent judgment on the evidence before him, free from pressures by the parties or other officials within the agency. Prior to the Administrative Procedure Act, there was considerable concern that persons hearing administrative cases at the trial level could not exercise independent judgment because hey were required to perform prosecutorial and investigative functions as well as their judicial work, see, e.g., Wong Yang Sung v. McGrath, 339 U. S. 33, 339 U. S. 36-41 (1950), and because they were often subordinate to executive officials within the agency, see Ramspeck v. Federal Trial Examiners Conference, 345 U. S. 128, 345 U. S. 131 (1953). Since the securing of fair and competent hearing personnel was viewed as "the heart of formal administrative adjudication," Final Report of the Attorney General's Committee on Administrative Procedure 46 (1941), the Administrative Procedure Act contains a number of provisions designed to guarantee the independence of hearing examiners. They may not perform duties inconsistent with their duties as hearing examiners. 5 U.S.C. § 3105 (1976 ed.).
The Supreme Court upheld the constitutionality of legislative tribubals in American Ins Co.v. 356 Bales of Cotton, 26 U. S. 511 (1828). The members of the tribunal in that case were appointed to 4-year terms, not for life. Congress has created non-Article III courts pretty much since the Founding.
It’s a little late to be arguing they aren’t constitutional.
The sick thing is that it was even an issue that the government would argue that an administrative court could rule on its own legitimacy, and that the victim couldn't appeal until they had gone through the entire administrative court process for the entire case until they could finally appeal and say this ALJ doesn't have the authority to rule on the case.
Even the federal courts are subject to interlocutory appeals when it comes to constitutional questions, so its an absurd position to take.
Top twelve things the Volokh Conspiracy doesn't want to talk about:
1) Donald Trump's criminal charges
2) Ron DeSantis' censorship crusade
3) Justice Thomas' ethical lapses
4) Fox "News"-Dominion ("Defamation Trial of the Century")
5) Donald Trump's "did he rape her?" trial
6) Ron DeSantis' Disney cancellation crusade
7) Donald Trump's impending criminal charges
8) Tennessee's racist, censorious Republican legislators
9) Ron DeSantis' anti-abortion law
10) Prof. Volokh's censorship record
11) Anything Ron DeSantis doesn't want a blog to talk about
12) Mass shootings, especially involving dead schoolchildren
Top twelve things the Volokh Conspiracy loves to talk about these days:
1) Transgender bathrooms
2) Lesbians
3) Muslims
4) Transgender sorority disputes
5) Safe spaces for bigots and bigotry
6) Drag queens
7) Vile racial slurs
8) Gay drama (Peter Thiel excepted)
9) Transgender parenting issues
10) Strong schools' inhospitality to bigots and bigotry
11) More vile racial slurs (quite a pace recently!)
12) Anything that diverts attention from DeSantis, Trump, or gun nuttery
(This comment is not aimed toward Prof. Adler, who seems far less bigot-friendly, delusional, and polemical than the average Conspirator or Conspiracy fan.)
13) Walmarts and Whole Foodses fleeing Culture War Winners communities
There are nearly 100 Whole Foods stores in California; eight in San Francisco. Some abandonment.
How many Whole Foods stores are located in the desolate, uncultured, economically inadequate Republican backwaters?
If you want to control or direct the conversations pay the piper and create your own blog.
Given the lack of any substance to your comments here I wouldn't expect much traffic.
I neither wish nor am entitled to direct the discussions here. Prof. Volokh's playground, Prof. Volokh's rules.
Unless and until the Volokh Conspiracy censors me again, however, opining concerning this blog's content -- and in particular the hypocrisy, cowardice, partisanship, and bigot-hugging nature of plenty of this blog's content -- seems congruent with those rules.
Tammany Hall is here and now, federalised.
The left has marched its long march through the institutions, and the bureaucracy is just wearing a mask marked "apolitical."
Civil service protections need to go. Even if they did it would take decades to change the civil service from being a de facto arm of the Democratic Party. Indeed it's more like the heart and soul, never mind an arm.
Beltwayo delenda est.
Yeah civil service protections are a bad idea. It was worth trying, but it failed so lets move on.
At least with patronage the voters can make their choice and do a thorough house cleaning, root and branch.
If you want more democracy, its a much more effective system to implement the will of the people.
Actually I think it should be gradually dismantled maybe just go down one level of management to start to make the bureaucracy more accountable to the elected officials.
That “modern” states a consistently unresponsive to their people is no reason to not try to fix that.
Things might get better or they might get worse, but the present is unlikely to be the best of all possible worlds.
Well of course we need administrative agencies, but there should be as much due process available to targets of the administrative state as for prosecutorial targets.
Including Brady disclosure, rule of lenity, and require a clear mandate from Congress. And unconstitutional actions like SEC gag orders have no justification. You can be railroaded by a prosecutor and decide to plead guilty to save yourself from a lengthy prison term, but even if you can't appeal you can complain about it and the record is public. The SEC typically seals the case and puts a gag order on you.
What I would like to see s as much power devolved from Washington to the lowest level of government possible. You know, the whole "The best government is the one closest to the people" thing.
People are tossing around the word "Republic", which is accurate but incomplete. We are a Federal Republic which means we are not a top down system. Authority and responsibility is spread across a multitude of levels, or at least it should be.
That they called a republic a democracy doesn't require up to fail to make the distinction.
Congress is the one who gave away their power to “independent agencies” and put 80% of the budgeting on auto-pilot. Congress continually tries to create new agencies insulated from Congress and any elected officer (see CPFB).
Congress is a wealth generator, not a governing body.
And who cares about agency heads? We saw political appointments don’t materially change agency momentum during the Trump years, in fact Obama’s people intentionally burrowed hundreds of partisans into agencies precisely to undermine him.
No, what you want is Tammany Hall. Civil Service protections were put into place in order to prevent patronage; your vision would be a return to the 1800s vote buying awfulness.
Gotta agree with Sarc here. Civil service is one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't things. You're always caught between having enough protections that the old political patronage doesn't recur, and so many protections you can't get rid of deadwood. There isn't a sharp peak on that utility curve where you can say 'that's exactly the right amount!'.
And for the argument that the bureaucracy doesn't turn on a dime when administrations change, I kind of think that's a feature rather than a bug. It's the same argument, I think, as having a hard-to-amend constitution: you can make any change you want, if enough of the population favors it for long enough. But the body politic is prone to pretty wild mood swings. Having bureaucratic inertia and a constitution act as a sea anchor to those mood swings is a good thing.
Additionally, you know what happens when PartyA ekes out a 51/49 electoral victory: the PartyA zealots declare they have a mandate from the people to immediately and completely implement 100% their agenda. Well, no - 49% of the people don't want some or all of that agenda. Heck, some of the 51% probably don't want the entire agenda either.
Even with a slow rate of change you can make big changes over time if you have the support. Not letting things change too quickly dampens out the oscillations, and like shock absorbers on a car that's a good thing.
And instead of patronage, we got idealogues and no accountability.
His vision would return accountability to unaccountable institutions.
History shows you are wrong; institutionalized corruption is what you get, not accountability.
Civil servants are not all ideologies.
There are plenty of actual implemented ways to assure popular accountability, there over 4000 political appointees. More if you count those only Senate confirmed. Notice and comment. Transparency like FOIA and the GAO. Congressional oversight. OMB and EOP oversight.
You have a weird definition of continually.
None of this has any relevance when the supposedly impartial bureaucracy is already partial for Party A.
When Party B is elected, your scheme works fine - the Party A hacks in the bureaucracy drag their heels and prevent Party B getting most of its crackpot schemes done. Hurrah - we are saved from the lunacies of Party B's voters. In fact, because the 4,000 politically appointed (explicitly politically appointed that is) people are just frosting on the cake, the million apparatchiks can still keep rowing the boat in Party A's direction, despite the frosting.
But when Party A is elected, it's full steam ahead - there's no check on Party A's lunacies.
So what we get is a one way ratchet. We move in Party A's direction, whatever the results of the elections, but the rate of "progress" slows a bit when Party B is favored by the voters, and then speeds up when Party A is in. When the government is "gridlocked" the Party A apparatchiks can proceed art a good clip - all they lack is the extra legislation to move even faster.
There are other models besides Tammany Hall and faux impartial Guardians. But there's no point exploring them, until Party A agrees that they're worth exploring. And until Party A feels the lash of an actively hostile civil service, just as Party B does now, Party A's not going to agree to change anything.
Lash first, negotiation second.
This is just a failure of imagination. Try and speculate, for a moment what an actually actively partisan administrative state could do, and then compare it to what you're grumpy about.
FWIW, I work with libertarians and conservatives; they all just keep it professional. My office's Director and Deputy Directors are extremely nonpartisan and mission-focused in their decision-making, but I don't expect you to trust something so anecdotal.
And quit using Soviet terminology to describe the US; it really devalues how awful the USSR actually was.
"None of this has any relevance when the supposedly impartial bureaucracy is already partial for Party A."
How do you go from an impartial bureaucracy to a partisan one? Only by one party gradually getting elected over and over. If you want to change things, you need to elect Party B over and over. Each successive B administration can swing things a bit as they appoint new people sympathetic to Party B, who promote like minded people within the civil service as openings happen, etc, etc.
Big changes take a lot of time and work. Look up the famous shall-issue concealed carry map. Half the states are constitutional carry now. That's the result of a lot of slow hard work. Women's suffrage, or prohibition, didn't happen by getting lucky in a single election - they were the work of a generation or two. Of course, things can swing fast when enough of the country agrees a policy is really bad, e.g. repealing Prohibition. But generally speaking, you have to do the hard work of slowly convincing people. There aren't any shortcuts.
Because it was the ultimate administrative state?
And quit using Soviet terminology to describe the US; it really devalues how awful the USSR actually was.
The fact that apparatchik began as a Russian word does not mean it has not long ago been stolen as an Englsh word, referring to government bureaucrats generally.
“My office’s Director and Deputy Directors are extremely nonpartisan and mission-focused in their decision-making, but I don’t expect you to trust something so anecdotal.”
Good. We don’t. And we shouldn’t. There is nothing about your performance here that would lead us to think that your expressed judgment on this matter isn’t a delusion or prevarication, or both.
Good observation picking that nit! It totally undermines my entire observation and greatly contributes to the conversation.
You're such a valuable contributor to the conversation here with your keen eye for nits to pick!
The present shows none of those things work.
How do you go from an impartial bureaucracy to a partisan one ? Only by one party getting elected over and over.
No. Let's go to the tape. Over the last 40 years* including the current Congress (1985-2025) we have had :
President - 20 years of each party
Senate - 22 years D control, 18 years R control
House - 18 years D control, 22 years R control
That's as even steven as you can get. And yet the civil service is overwhelmingly dominated by the left.
So what's the other way of getting a civil service dominated by one team ?
Team A plays hardball, and Team B plays pat-a-cake. Suppose you start with a third of your bureaucracy being pro-team A, a third pro-team B and a third neutral. If Team A players always make sure to hire reliable Team A players as their subordinates, while the neutrals and Team B players do the "competence, apolitical, never mind their political views" thing, the organisation will transform rapidly into a Team A lake.
Conquest's second law states the principle straightforwardly :
"Any organization not explicitly and constitutionally right-wing will sooner or later become left-wing."
* roughly a full civil service career
You not getting what you want is not a sign the system is broken.
Your getting what you want is not the same as the system functioning properly for anyone else.
Oh there's plenty of things I want that the government doesn't do.
Helluva thing you think the only reason I could possibly defend our institutions is because they do everything I want. Says a lot about the level of entitlement you've got.
I’m not in the slightest doubt that government at all levels does more of what you want than it does of what I want.
To start with it pays your salary and I want your position eliminated.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his salary depends upon his not understanding it."
Remember that S_0 is a federal bureaucrat and much of this is easier to explain.
Ad hominem.
I’ve explained why I think a return to the patronage system would be an awful idea.
Engage with that, if you want to actually make an argument.
That you purport to believe that I said anything like that you “defend our institutions is because they do everything I want” is proof that your claimed “sincerity” in argument is bogus. My observation was of course an echo of yours, and neither included the asserted “everything”, so you engaged in a classic movement of the goalposts.
If my observation is not an “actual argument” then the one which it so closely echoed is not an “actual argument” either. So it’s nice to get your admission that you started down that path.
We have a bureaucracy operating in its own perceived and partisan interests (the (D)s being who they are these are very much the same) and that needs to be fixed. Your claim that the disproportionate amount of contributions to the (D)s does not indicate any problems at the pointy end is not plausible and does not correspond to actual experience. Hence the complaints. If you have a different solution than restoration of more patronage to get that bureaucracy under control of the other side when it wins elections feel free to advance it. But we perceive that the status quo has to change in SOME way so get over the idea of advocating that that not happen.
I don't believe your definition is correct. Apparatchik still has strong authoritarian/Soviet connotations.
I went through the first page of definitions for 'apparatchik'. I think Lee is reflecting general usage:
Merriam-Webster: (explanation of Soviet origin) followed by "In current use, however, a person doesn't have to be a member of the Communist Party to be called an "apparatchik"; he or she just has to be someone who mindlessly follows orders in an organization or bureaucracy."
Cambridge says "a loyal and senior member of a political party, especially the Communist Party in the former USSR" but then gives examples including "She criticized him as a White House apparatchik who always backs the president". Since, jokes aside, we haven't had any communists living in the White House, that seems to indicate non-USSR usage.
Britannica doesn't mention communism at all, just " a very loyal member of an organization (such as a company or political party) who always obeys orders - corporate/party/political apparatchiks". Corporate apparatchiks presumably aren't in the USSR.
etc, etc.
Sarcastr0: "I don’t believe your definition is correct."
And mere evidence won't change his opinion.
I said I believe because I wasn't like cocksure.
I guess I'm old enough now that the end of the Cold War has left a hangover on me.
I just note that as predicted mere evidence hasn't produced any sign of reconsideration.
* I'll...
This is the usual 'the other side is ruthless and my side is too soft' nonsense every fringe partisan thinks.
“Any organization not explicitly and constitutionally right-wing will sooner or later become left-wing.”
Or, maybe, the right wing's purity crusade means they think everything that's not explicitly kowtowing only to their specific mentality is libby lib lib.
My evidence for why your worldview is paranoid and and mine is right is that plenty of conservatives and libertarians on this website are called liberal, including the Conspirators!
Sarcastr0 utterly fails to deal with the "evidence of the tape" that Absaroka points out.
But I fully expect him to declare that we should ignore the evidence of our lying eyes that our "public servants" are partisan.
Abrasoka doesn't talk about a tape. In fact, in this he seems to at least somewhat agree with my institutional point.
The tape bit came from Lee Moore.
And he has no evidence, as I said. And neither do you, just strong feelings.
Correct, the “tape bit” was from Lee Moore. That he presented “no evidence” is false. Absaroka’s claim was that you get a partisabn bureaucracy “[o]nly by one party gradually getting elected over and over”. Lee Moore’s evidence debunking this claim is of course NOT “no evidence”. Indeed, it's dispositive of the falsity of Absaroka's claim.
Anticipating your gaslighting us on this:
https://www.fedsmith.com/2021/02/12/political-donations-and-federal-employees/
"President – 20 years of each party
Senate – 22 years D control, 18 years R control
House – 18 years D control, 22 years R control"
Fair enough.
I have read studies that say R's are more likely to found businesses, and D's are more likely to go into government work. And I've seen studies that disagree, but let's take it as true and run with it. People do self select by personality - fighter pilots and social workers are generally going to be very different people.
So, if that's true, what's the fix? You could try and attract more R's to public service - appeal to their patriotism, or give out scholarships or whatever. You can try and hire them when in power, but of course if they'd rather be in the private sector, they will be hard to hire.
I think you'll still have problems even if you eliminate civil service. How's that going to work ... do you give everyone a pink slip on inauguration day and put out ads ('Wanted: java developers, 10+ years experience, must be republicans')? How many good people will take a job knowing they have an even money chance of getting fired in 4 years even if they are great at their job? Who is going to answer the phones while you train up the new people?
And even if you try, if R's would rather work in industry, staffing with only R's is going to be a problem.
You're doing the Brett Bellmore thing where if you support a party, you can't do your job in an impartial way.
YOU may be that brain poisoned. Most people are not.
So, if that’s true, what’s the fix?
1. reduce the scope of federal activity by about half - then you have fewer slots to fill
2. privatise as much as possible - ie convert as much government provision into government financing as possible. Then you only need to police the money. (An obvious example at state level is to get rid of public schools entirely and just provide a voucher for private schools.)
3. get rid of government sector unions and make all government jobs at will. That way, a partisan employee has an incentive to act non partisan.
if you support a party, you can’t do your job in an impartial way.
You can, but generally you don't. Especially if your team prescribes a "long march through the institutions."
Actually, Democrats are not revolutionary socialists, Lee.
I work with Republicans who put their jobs before the party they vote for in good faith too - it says more about you that you think that's a rare thing.
What the opposite claim by you says about you is that you are self-deceiver, or a liar, or both.
@Absaroka: That the problem is hard, or impossible, to fix does not salvage your disproved claim that "you go from an impartial bureaucracy to a partisan one [o]nly by one party gradually getting elected over and over."
My impression is that you are admitting to that disproof, but I want it said in so many words and as many times as necessary to put a stake in it.
"And yet the civil service is overwhelmingly dominated by the left."
I'd be curious to know what your evidence is for that assertion. It certainly doesn't match up with my personal experience.
Drinkwater: "I’d be curious to know what your evidence is for ['the civil service is overwhelmingly dominated by the left']”
Repeating a link I've already provided in this very thread:
https://www.fedsmith.com/2021/02/12/political-donations-and-federal-employees/
You can quibble about identifying (D)vs(R) with "left"vs"right", but that's a quibble.
Yes, it does. The CPB is a rare agency, made extraordinarily independent for specific reasons. And nondiscretionary spending is handled by one part of one agency.
Congresspeople come in wealthy; the private sector remains where you get rich.
And you're just ignoring reality if you don't think there were plenty of huge changes to agency policy during Trump. State Department was the biggest. USCIS is another that springs to mind.
So you are wrong on every single level.
"Congresspeople come in wealthy;"
Well, not all of them - AOC for example.
And if you consider the Grey Lady a reputable source, some of them are really good investors.
"Congresspeople come in wealthy; ..."
Given the number of "Congress people" who have never worked in the private sector and spent their whole careers in "public service" and have somehow become very wealthy, your statement hardly seems true.
The CPFB isn't the only self funded independent agency.
Weird how you don't know that.
I understand that you don't understand having political things you want and not unprofessionally janking the system to get them.
But professionalism is a thing for most people.
Assertion of their own righteousness and imperviousness to bias is a thing for many people. But talk is cheap.
Not all of them - I was absolutely speaking generally. (And the investment thing is absolutely a problem, but not like what you can get in the private sector).
I interned in Congress about 10 years ago. What I saw was not flattering, but not in the way that most on here assume - Congress is a way for those who have become wealthy to try and turn their wealth into some measure of immortality.
Just about every Rep I spoke to (and they love to talk to random interns) was miserable, due to the party control of their votes. But all of them were planning to run again (and presumably spend some of their wealth to do so).
Because they wanted to get into the history books, and that compulsion is what drove them. Nothing about being a statesman; just being rich and unfulfilled.
https://www.opensecrets.org/personal-finances/new-members.
Also, do you think income is the only way one become wealthy? Because inheritance is really the pro way to get into that high income bracket - it takes money to make money.
"due to the party control of their votes."
As an aside, what caused that change?
From my dim memories of my halcyon youth, that didn't used to be as much of a thing. I could vote for a conservative Dem or liberal Repub and they were happy to cross the aisle when their party fringe got too far out there. Now I have to think not just about candidate X's positions, but wonder how much I am empowering the wackiest fringe of their party if I vote for them.
Newt centralized party leadership control of members a great deal. Since then, both parties have done so even more.
Now you get whip calls on every vote, just about. And if you say no, your funding is deprioritized. Members may be rich, but they also don’t like to spend their wealth. (But see AOC refusing party funding) Committee work is overseen, but I do think there is something to be done there. But if you’re not in a secure seat, you need to basically use your limited authority there to funnel jobs to your district.
I left the House not even wanting to be appointed as a rep. I hear the Senate is different though.
BTW, at least in 2013, there were Newt stories still echoing around; he was a character even among the characters in Congress.
At least with patronage the voters can make their choice and do a thorough house cleaning, root and branch.
This is not how it worked back in the day, and there is no reason to think it wouldn't return to institutionalize corruption again.
* us
It is in the nature of government to institutionalise corruption. We had it in the past, we have it now, and it will always be with us.
The only way to mitigate it is to shrink the pie that is to be stolen from.
... then, for example, how did Joe Biden (who contrary to his claims)
never had a real job manage to acquire his wealt?
Then do Comrade Sanders.
I have no idea, Mr. Bumble.
I am speaking generally, not absolutely.
OK. Let's leave it there. Have a good evening.
No - government institutions, like any other, can have internal controls set up. And transparency. And external controls - OMB, Congressional oversight, etc.
And any corruption is not institutionalized, it is in spite of those controls.
The patronage system is actually an institution that exists to reward those who do explicitly political/partisan favors; no current government system does that.
I did, BCD. Which is why I said rare not one-off.
Read better.
If the "controls" don't work then they don't work and there's no actual virtue in signaling your good intent by putting them in place.
What's the purpose of self funded independent agencies with law-making powers?
To keep it out of electoral politics.
The Fed being beholden to Presidents wanting to be reelected seems a bad idea, no?
Or look at how Trump tried to mess with the Post Office.
BCD : ”What’s the purpose of self funded independent agencies with law-making powers?”
Sarcastro : ”To keep it out of electoral politics.”
“Ahhhh, Herrr Barrrtlett” as the Gestapo officer purrs in The Great Escape. All things come to those who wait.
At last, Sarcastro slips up, eschews gnomic and Janus-faced asides, and tells us clearly, in plain English, what he really thinks. It’s a red letter day.
And what does he think ?
That it’s a good thing to be governed by agencies which are kept out of electoral politics.
Did you just call me a fucking Nazi for liking the way the Fed is set up???
No, just an apparatchik 🙂
PS if you did not get the "Ah, Herr Bartlett" reference, then you should watch the movie. It's a positively delicious display of sadistic pleasure. The cat has caught the mouse. And the mouse has been caught because he makes a tiny slip-of-the-tongue.
We are not governed by the CFPB or the Fed or the Post Office.
I'm not arguing HHS or the State Department should be independent.
It's rare, and sometimes fit for purpose.
We are not governed by the CFPB or the Fed
Do you live in France then ?
The Fed, alongside its little sideline of setting interest rates for the whole economy, thereby affecting everyone's savings and investments, regulates and supervises the banking industry. With regulations, supervisory inspections, and compulsory reporting. How is this not "governing us ?" How does HHS's regulation of the healthcare industry achieve "governing us" status, without the Fed's regulation of the banking industry achieving that status too ? How does the State Department manage to "govern us" while the Fed doesn't ?
Likewise the CFPB writes and enforces rules for financial institutions on such matters as mortgages, credit cards and student loans.
What other bits of the federal government's functions don't qualify as "governing us" ? And which of them should be kept out of electoral politics ? The Department of Defense ? The CIA ? The Department of Education ? The Census Bureau ? The Department of Sarcastro approving research grants ?
I'm sorry, but I don't find my behavior is governed by the Fed. It's important, and has a pretty big indirect effect. But governed is nuts.
The policy of the current Administration is what State and HHS (and EPA and OSTP) execute a much greater extent than the independent agencies.
The mere ability to make rules does not alone mean you're governing America in any general way. You can be pedantic all you want, but there is a distinction in the mission execution of independent agencies versus others.
I’m sorry, but I don’t find my behavior is governed by the Fed. It’s important, and has a pretty big indirect effect. But governed is nuts.
No, you’re just too slow to spot that the Fed pokes somebody else with a cattle prod, and it’s the somebody else who puts up your mortgage rate. And even if you can’t spot that the Fed controlling the amount of money in the economy and its price is “governing” you, it’s hard for people in the banking industry to miss that the Fed is governing them. So your position seems to amount to – if they’re not governing me they’re not governing us. So the DoJ, FBI and Bureau of Prisons are not governing us, because they’re not governing you. (I presume.)
The policy of the current Administration is what State and HHS (and EPA and OSTP) execute a much greater extent than the independent agencies.
Well, duh ! When the current Administration has no control of what goes on in independent agencies because it’s…in independent agencies, the policy of the current Administration doesn’t reach into the independent agencies. Who’da thunk it ?
The mere ability to make rules does not alone mean you’re governing America in any general way.
I quite agree that the Fed is not making regulations in any general way. It does not make rules for the healthcare industry or the airline industry. Its governing powers are exercisable only in a specific domain. Likewise all other parts of the executive branch, except the Presidency.
You can be pedantic all you want, but there is a distinction in the mission execution of independent agencies versus others.
Yes, of course. The difference is that they have escaped the interference of electoral politics ! The apparatchik’s dream.
So not state governments regulating local schools and libraries?
Libraries and school boards are typically at the county level or lower already, but state standards for things like curricula are nowhere near novel.
As local as possible means yes, local school governance is better than state. And whatever degree to which local is better than state, state is 100x that much better than federal.
Local >> State >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Federal
But governance and control can't be totally decoupled from funding: whoever funds has some control. So ideally you go back to local funding as well.
You know what's happening at the moment isn't state standards.
It's state control.
So you have a blue city doing the usual regional things with education and libraries in a red state, and the red state is taking away local control and mandating the regional things.
Conservatives, folks!