The Volokh Conspiracy
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Another Dissent from Denial of Certiorari from Justice Jackson
For the second time, Justice Jackson dissents from the Supreme Court's refusal to hear a case.
Yesterday the Supreme Court did not grant certiorari in any new cases. There is at least one case, however, that two justices wanted the Court to hear. Justice Ketanji Brown Jackson dissented from the denial of certiorari in Davis v. United States, joined by Justice Sonia Sotomayor.
Although Justice Jackson has not yet written an opinion in an argued case, this is the second time she has dissented from a denial of certiorari, and her third dissenting opinion overall. She previously dissented from the denial of certiorari in Chinn v. Shoop, and dissented from the denial of a stay of execution in Johnson v. Missouri. In both of these opinons she was joined by Justice Sotomayor. As previously noted, Justice Jackson is also the most active justice at oral argument, and Justice Barrett is the only justice to have written a majority opinion in an argued case so far this term.
In Davis, Justice Jackson believes the Court should have taken the opportunity to clarify what is necessary for a criminal defendant to demonstrate ineffective assistance of counsel in the context of plea negotiations. Her brief dissent reads:
Our criminal justice system today is "for the most part a system of pleas, not a system of trials." Lafler v. Cooper, 566 U. S. 156, 170 (2012). Against this backdrop, this Court has recognized that the loss of an opportunity for a favorable plea offer due to an attorney's deficient performance can violate the Sixth Amendment right to effective counsel. Id., at 169–170; see also Missouri v. Frye, 566 U. S. 134 (2012). Petitioner Quartavious Davis alleged, and the Eleventh Circuit did not dispute, that he satisfied the first prong of the Strickland ineffective-assistance-of-counsel standard because his attorney failed to initiate plea negotiations with the Government. The question presented, then, is how can a defendant like Davis show "prejudice" as a result of this failure? See Strickland v. Washington, 466 U. S. 668, 687 (1984) (ineffective assistance of counsel requires a showing of both deficient performance and prejudice).
The Circuits appear to be at odds with respect to this important question. Under our case law, in order to demonstrate prejudice when defense counsel's deficient performance causes the defendant to forgo an advantageous plea deal, the defendant must show there was "a reasonable probability" that the relevant parties—the prosecution, defendant, and the court—would have accepted the plea. Frye, 566 U. S., at 147. But some Circuits have held that this showing can be made without proof that the Government had put a plea offer on the table, see Byrd v. Skipper, 940 F. 3d 248, 252, 255–256 (CA6 2019); United States v. Pender, 514 Fed. Appx. 359, 360–361 (CA4 2013) (per curiam), while others seem to impose a threshold requirement that a defendant cannot show prejudice if "the government never extended . . . a formal plea offer" to the defendant, Ramirez v. United States, 751 F. 3d 604, 608 (CA8 2014); see also Byrd, 940 F. 3d, at 264 (Griffin, J., dissenting) (collecting cases to support the proposition that ineffective assistance of counsel in this context "require[s] proof of a plea offer").
In this case, the Eleventh Circuit joined the debate. The District Court concluded that Davis's allegations in his 28 U. S. C. §2255 motion were insufficient, even if true, because he had not alleged "that a plea offer was made but not communicated to [him]." The Eleventh Circuit affirmed, concluding that Davis was not entitled to an evidentiary hearing to prove his allegations because "Davis did not allege in his §2255 petition that the government even offered a plea deal," which, in the Eleventh Circuit's view, meant that Davis had insufficiently pleaded prejudice.
The instant case not only implicates a divergence of circuit opinions, but also is an ideal vehicle to evaluate the Eleventh Circuit's bright-line rule that an adequate showing of prejudice requires an actual plea offer. That important legal question is isolated here; since the Eleventh Circuit assumed deficient performance, so can we. See Lafler, 566 U. S., at 163. And because the lower courts denied Davis's motion without an evidentiary hearing based solely on the pleading deficiency, the sole question before us is whether a defendant must allege (and then ultimately show) that an actual plea offer was made.
Moreover, under the circumstances presented here, it was exceedingly likely that Davis would have prevailed with respect to the prejudice prong if the Eleventh Circuit had not applied that threshold requirement. Davis's allegations established that a favorable plea agreement was a strong possibility, even though no offer actually materialized, because each of Davis's five codefendants had lawyers who negotiated favorable plea agreements with respect to the same series of armed robberies. And while Davis (who was 18 or 19 years old at the time the crimes were committed) received a sentence of approximately 160 years of imprisonment after his attorney took him to trial, all of Davis's codefendants received sentences of less than 40 years of imprisonment due to plea agreements that enabled the District Court to impose a sentence below the mandatory minimum. The District Court's statements at sentencing were also noteworthy: The judge specifically asserted that, while he thought the appropriate sentence for Davis was 40 years, he was bound by the consecutive mandatory minimums.* [FN: *The mandatory minimums that applied to Davis were subsequently revisited—and revised—by Congress. See 18 U. S. C. §924(c)(1)(A). Davis asserts that, if sentenced today, he would face a mandatory minimum of 35 years of imprisonment.]
The Eleventh Circuit gave short shrift to these alleged facts, and others, which suggest that Davis was harmed by his counsel's failure to initiate plea negotiations because it applied a bright-line rule that prejudice cannot be shown in the absence of a plea offer. This petition presents the Court with a clear opportunity to resolve a Circuit split regarding whether having an actual plea offer is an indispensable prerequisite to making the necessary showing of prejudice. I would grant certiorari to resolve that issue.
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That dissent sounds highly persuasive.
She can write 10,000 words on this but has no clue what a woman is.
Affirmative Action hires are always do embarrassing.
She can write 10,000 words on this
Fewer than that, but clearly as what she wrote was not remotely embarrassing - and indeed, seems well within the intellectual mainstream of an SC dissent, your whining about affirmative action hires seems misplaced.
Tell us more about the Jews, BCD. Or those gay men and their members.
I daresay you're getting worse!
It's the spirochaetes
You know what's worse then Jews or homos?
Affirmative Action hires running your trains or your courts.
Just ask East Palestine or any African country lmao
Which is worst?
The Volokh Conspiracy repeatedly censors liberals and ascribes it to civility standards?
The Volokh Conspiracy incessantly approves conservative comments such as this one?
The Volokh Conspiracy claims to be a principled champion of free expression from an academic (rather than polemically partisan) perspective?
The Volokh Conspiracy attracts such a remarkable concentration of bigots -- BCD's comment, for example, covers Jews, gays, and Blacks quite concisely -- as its target audience?
I've noticed a disturbing pattern with your responses.
If I mention something about the blacks, you are typically silent.
If I mention something about degenerates, you are typically silent.
If I mention something about the Jews, you often say nothing.
BUT, if I mention gays and Jews in the same comment, you come nippin' at my heels like some yappy little weiner dog.
as a 1/2 Jew (No Homo, thank you very much) I resemble your remark, and looks like the DemoKKKrats finally found some Palestinians they won't support
I muted him a long time ago, so "worse" is making me curious.
Of course I muted him just because he never seemed to want to make any substantive points on the topic at hand, just bring up other issues he feels strongly about that usually have little to do with it.
It's a highly substantive point that PB&J is an absolute moron and an Affirmative Action hire.
I have this unmuting to see the car crash issue as well.
For someone who can't tell Male from Female, she doth protest-eth quite a bit-icus.
My favorite fellow-Jew Sammy D. Jr said it best in the theme from one of my favorite 70's cop Shows "Barretta"
"don't do the crime if you can't do the time (don't do it)
Frank "A Quinn Martin Presentation"
Her dissents will only get better and better, she is going to have tons of practice.
Today's dissents are tomorrows opinions. Hope you live long enough to see an invigorated right to counsel and you spend your last days mad that those accused of crimes are treated fairly for once.
Many tomorrows will pass before she's in the majority, God willing.
Dude was convicted of a string of armed robberies. CONVICTED May you spend your last days mad that crime victims get justice.
They don't get justice when the system is unfair. Wrongfully obtained convictions are not justice. Innocent people in prison benefit no one. The right to counsel protects against all of this. And you're against it.
No one. I repeat no one, benefits from a system where no assistance or ineffective assistance is tolerated. For better or worse our system is adversarial. And to denigrate the right to counsel is to denigrate the law itself.
You don't believe in justice. You believe in pain for the sake of pain. A true disgrace to the legal profession.
"Wrongfully obtained convictions "
Didn't happen here.
The Supreme Court affects all cases. Needed rights are made from bad cases. Your general disregard has been shown. You can’t simply say “didn’t happen here.”
Also you’re not a criminal practitioner. Or a litigator. You’re some chump who does boilerplate contracts. You wouldn’t know what’s wrongful or not.
You are just a bratty child.
You have no idea what I do professionally, or have done, though I admit that currently [thank god] I don't litigate.
You're a douchey reactionary who spends most of his day ranting on blogs. I have a pretty good idea what you "do professionally".
Almost bloody mary time in Ohio.
"bloody mary"
Yuck. A horrible drink.
Rather be a bratty child who upholds the ideals of the profession than a cynical asshole who degrades it daily.
You are both a brat and an asshole.
Me calling you out for not being able to show empathy to a child victim or believe in the adversary system doesn't make me an asshole.
Well, you're not professional, so I can safely say with some authority on the matter that you don't do jack shit 'professionally.'
Whatever you claim to do, you're a disgrace to it.
Hey, someones gotta do Boilerplate (what is Boilerplate anyway?) and don't you get into trouble being a "Criminal Practitioner"??
Frank "Non Criminal Practitioner as far as anyone knows"
Yeah but he happens to be right.
You can't say the conviction was wrongly obtained when the only controversy in this case is whether the defendant had an adequate opportunity to plead guilty to get a reduced sentence before trial.
"He was so guilty a competent attorney would never bring him to trial" is hardly an argument for "wrongly convicted".
Y’all have totally lost the point of the post. Nobody is arguing that this guy is innocent.
LTG,
A question for you. Assume you're a defense lawyer. Assume your client says "I'm innocent of this crime. I'm pleading innocent". You say "The case is stacked against you. Your buddy already pled guilty". Your client says "I don't care, I'm innocent, I'm pleading innocent".
Do you see any problem, ethical or otherwise, if you then go to the prosecutors and ask for a deal if your client pleads guilty? When he has said quite directly that he has no plans plead guilty, he's innocent?
Well that scenario makes no sense because the client has the final say over whether to plea. A lawyer can’t make a deal with a prosecutor and the client is stuck with that. A plea must be made knowingly voluntarily and intelligently by the defendant.
What the lawyer can and should do is negotiate to find out what the best offer he can get from the prosecutor is and then he must take that to the client and advise him of the pros and cons of each while in the meantime being ready and prepared to take it to trial and put on the best case possible.
Indeed the prosecutor may have an offer from the beginning. And it would absolutely be unethical and ineffective not to take that to a client, even one who insists they are innocent.
If the prosecutor offers a deal, then I agree, it would be unethical not to present that to the client.
But if the client maintains their innocence, and says they are innocent regardless, going behind their back and trying to get a guilty plea deal out of the prosecution....that strikes me as unethical on the part of the lawyer. The lawyer should, to the best extent possible, follow the clients wishes. And seeking a guilty deal, when the client clearly maintains their innocence, and that they plan to plead innocent...doesn't do that.
Unless they instruct you not to negotiate with the state, then it is not behaving unethically. And if that’s the case, then the lawyer will have an ethical duty to strongly advise against that course.
This is not a case where an innocent man might be sitting in prison. It is a case, where a guilty man is claiming his lawyer screwed up by not trying to negotiate a plea deal, that would result in a lighter sentence.
On the contrary. This is a case where a great many innocent men sitting in prisons could be avoided. And it could be done by improving the justice done to the apparently guilty man bringing the case.
Yes indeed. The problem is that the system’s meat and drink is plea bargains, and the establishment doesn’t want their food supply limited.
Realistically, the best chance to benefit from good lawyers is when you’re negotiating a plea. If your lawyer can’t get you a decent plea, what good is he?
Justice Jackson has some practical experience with the plea process - she worked on criminal defense for the poor.
The problem isn't with her blowing the whistle on the system, the problem is her colleagues not wanting to bother looking at the icky sausage-making of plea bargains.
Could you elaborate on how you think a reversal in this case could have plausibly limited plea bargains?
They would have been limited to cases where the lawyers are semi-competent.
I suspect that will be a change from prior practice.
How so?
Requiring more stringent competence standards for plea bargaining will help keep people out of prison from pleading to bad deals that still don’t accurately reflect the conduct they committed.
By definition, the issue in this case has no application to defendants who end up "pleading to bad deals that still don’t accurately reflect the conduct they committed."
Yes it would. Creating meaningful
standards for demonstrating prejudice will allow the law in this area to develop and create more guidelines for courts and practitioners. By having too stringent of standards for demonstrating prejudice, courts can too easily dismiss colorable claims even where they admit that the lawyer was ineffective.
Further, the possibility of counsel actually being determined to be ineffective and prejudicial, will lead lawyers and the courts to modify their conduct to ensure that adequate plea negotiations are taking place. The right to effective counsel in plea bargaining only has meaning if courts are actually willing to find prejudice when it exists.
I don’t think you understand the issue in this case.
Defendants have a right to effective assistance in plea bargaining, and it’s been established since Frye that if you end up with a worse plea agreement than an effective lawyer could have gotten, that can form the basis of an ineffective assistance claim.
This case is about whether you can have a claim if you never have the opportunity for a plea agreement at all. By definition, any defendant who accepts a “bad deal” isn’t in the category of people who are affected by the holding.
Oh and btw: remember when you said "need a tissue" after I detailed victims of police brutality denied qualified immunity? These included a child forced into sex act that was photographed, a homeless man mauled to death by a police dog, and a child who was shot while the police were aiming for a non-threatening dog.
You scoffed. Made a dismissive joke. And didn't care about these child victims. And recently you showed you didn't care about Tamir Rice either.
This pretense to caring about justice when you so obviously do not should stop. Admit who you really are and stop lying.
Remedy for crimes is prosecution. If the police in those cases committed crimes, they should have been prosecuted.
You hate cops, so you pick out a few cases among the tens of billions of police/civilian interactions each year. QI protects the public.
So you don’t care about those victims them huh? Can’t even pretend to care. They were members of the public too. But you don’t give a shit.
Seriously yes or no: do you think a child shot by police while laying on the ground should have a remedy or no?
"yes or no:"
You constantly do this demand BS and I constantly decline to answer. I don't have any obligation to answer your demands and so I don't encourage you by ever answering.
You decline because you can’t type out what you really think and then look in the mirror. But you do find the time to type out “need a tissue” or lies about the EMS case. The inference about your values is easy.
Or more darkly: you’re such a coward you can’t even anonymously type out a showing of empathy.
Its just a child's idea of a gotcha.
This is you:
wint@dril
who the fuck is scraeming [sic] "LOG OFF" at my house. show yourself, coward. i will never log off
2:36 AM · Sep 16, 2012
Wow. I'm a Dril tweet. Great. You're a monster who can't even say a child shot by police was a victim. Which one would I rather be. Hard decision...
Iirc that was the case where the little girl was running around screaming, "My eye! You shot my eye!"
There is no remedy for a destroyed eye, yet. There is only money to help deal with it. "But...!" Lawyers get one third. They portray qualified immunity as if the person is getting away with a crime, so as to conflate outrage over that with QI. This benefits it as a business process.
If they did something horrible, prosecute. Go after the deep pockets city that trained them poorly. Go after them if they screwed up as well.
This is all such a smoke and handwaving game.
" Lawyers get one third. "
40%
If it's a federal civil rights suit, the lawyers usually get fees added on top of the recovery, not deducted from it.
Lawsuits in federal court aren't the best or most effective answer to police brutality, convictions are.
Or do you think the proper remedy for George Floyd's death was his family suing Derek Chauvin and making the City of Minneapolis reimburse him?
Qualified immunity doesn't provide any immunity for criminal acts.
If the DA doesn’t think shooting a child while aiming for a non-threatening dog is crime, what’s the remedy for the victim? There is none because of qualified immunity. It’s not just about deterring conduct it’s about giving the victim a remedy in their individual case. I mean why even have tort or contract law if the answer is: well if it was bad the DA will prosecute it as a crime?
Michael Morton was convicted of killing his wife. CONVICTED.
While he was in prison and innocent for 25 years, the guy that actually killed his wife raped and murdered at least one other woman.
Sometimes CONVICTED doesn’t actually represent reality. That’s the point of having competent counsel.
Every co-defendant here pled guilty. No innocent defendant was harmed.
And what about innocent defendants in the thousands of other cases? Huh? What about them? You don’t give a damn about them either.
You vastly over estimate the number.
You think there are billions of police interactions but not thousands of wrongful convictions? I tend to forget that you’re not very bright behind all the cruelty.
list 5, shouldn't be hard if there are "Thousands"
Criminality harms far more people than what some would consider an unacceptable, but unavoidable, trade-off of false convictions.
What about them? Do you think they'll be helped by a rule that makes it more likely they'll be offered favorable plea agreements?
Yes. Innocent people not being in prison for the max sentence by taking it to trial will be better served by favorable plea agreements. Innocent people plead all the time.
As will people who have done some criminal conduct but are innocent of others and are overcharged. They’ll be served too.
If you’ve ever touched criminal law even tangentially: people typically don’t do everything the prosecutors and police claim they do.
To the extent that's true, that's a bad thing!
Yes. But its the system that exists. And you have to find ways to mitigate the harm to people in that system. And an innocent guy going for two years because competent counsel negotiated a plea deal is a hell of a lot better than an innocent guy going for ten years because of an incompetent plea deal or losing at trial and going for 20.
Defendants already (theoretically) have a remedy for an incompetent plea deal; this case wouldn't have changed that.
Do you think an innocent person's chances of being convicted at trial are comparable to their chances of being convicted if they plead guilty?
I don’t understand your question.
The chances of being convicted of something when you take a plea are 100%. Innocent or not. But you have more control over what exactly you’re convicted of and what sentence that will result in assuming you have competent counsel and information. That’s why innocent people or people who did some but not all things that were charged plead guilty.
For a Trial it is extremely difficult to determine chances someone
will be convicted of and that’s why people take pleas. It’s also difficult to determine what sentence will ultimately be imposed after trial. You can advise a client on what the max is and what they think a particular judge will likely do upon a conviction because it can vary greatly. I mean maybe the jury will rightly determine that you were just caught with some drugs on you. Or maybe they’ll buy the prosecutors theory that you are part of a massive drug conspiracy and get a crazy long and undeserved sentence.
Also the fact that you put theoretically in parentheses kind of shows that there isn’t a robust remedy for ineffective assistance during plea bargaining. The Supreme Court taking more cases on that issue and making clear guidelines for what is and isn’t effective would help with that.
Most of the "innocent defendants" are guilty of something else. Truly innocent people who are actually good, sober, moral citizens rarely end in that situation.
I haven’t seen the numbers lately, but as of a couple of years ago 27% of the DNA exonerations were in cases with a confession and/or a guilty plea.
In a world where the cops can use psychological torture to obtain confessions and DAs can threaten 10,000 years in prison to encourage guilty pleas, those things don’t mean a lot.
I’m not saying they’re innocent. I don’t know if they’re guilty, and neither do you. But your faith in the justice system is cute.
This guy isn't even trying to claim that he's innocent: he's claiming that his lawyer should have found a way to let him admit that he was guilty more advantageously.
But, the claim in this appeal isn't that he was innocent. but that he got a much longer sentence because his "ineffective counsel" fought to have him found not guilty, instead of trying to get him to admit guilt and take a plea bargain.
The point is that the courts should make clear that they expect inferior courts and state boards to have standards for minimal competence in representation.
And even a ridiculous sentence for the guilty isn’t really justice anyway.
The only reason I brought up Morton is that Bob was saying that CONVICTED shows that someone MUST be guilty.
Either way, there’s nothing wrong with this dissent, and since Jackson is the only justice with experience as a defense lawyer this is the perspective she was expecting to have and, honestly, one that the bench broadly means more of.
But, in this case, the argument would seem to essentially be, "I was so obviously guilty, that any competent lawyer would have fought hard to get the prosecution and me to agree to a plea bargain, so I could receive a shorter sentence."
Fine. I don’t understand how to tie your response to anything here. And I’m not arguing this guy’s guilt or innocence, because I have no basis upon which to have a well-founded opinion on that.
I’m not commenting on this specific case at all.
But insisting on competent representation for everyone will lower the odds of future miscarriages of justices. No?
Some federal defense attorneys are appointed. Especially when there are multiple co-defendants and the fed pub defender is conflicted out. So those private lawyers get paid by the hour. You know how to add a whole bunch of billable hours to a federal criminal case? Hint Hint: It doesn't involve a plea bargain.
Your God is an illusory, paltry thing, Bob from Ohio. Roughly equivalent to Bugs Bunny, the Easter Bunny, Senator John Blutarsky, Tinkerbell, Hellboy, or Wile E. Coyote in the context of relevance to the reality-based world.
Your betters will dance (or, perhaps urinate) on the grave of your right-wing political aspirations in modern America.
for a "Reverend" you're not very "Reverend-y" (but you're very Jerry Sandusky-y")
OK, as a Jew, I'm not a big fan of Zombie-Hey-Zeuss either, but c'mon (Man!) you think Pogroms can't happen here? STFU
Frank "Jesus Christ!"
This dissent can be summed up in one sentence:
"The convicted thug is a black, and I'm a black, and I'm an anti-white racist who sides with any black above all else."
Hoppy025 speaks the truth. Now Kill Him!!!!
The law as written invites too much gamesmanship and she’s inviting more. As it is, defendants can spurn a plea offer and take it to trial. If they prevail, then they walk free and there’s nothing the government can do. If they don’t, then they go back and argue ineffective assistance of counsel to get the plea offer back. It’s heads the criminal wins, tails the people lose, because the people have to both go through all the effort/cost of a trial, risk an acquittal, but also then settle for the sentence associated with a plea bargain if they win.
This doctrine is bad enough when the government actually made a plea bargain, now we’re floating the possibility that the people have to win at trial and then settle for the terms of a plea bargain they never actually made? The hidden constitution pro-crime judges make up as they go sure has some strange provisions.
The sentencing does seem light as to those who plea bargained, but that’s why it’s a bargain. For the guy who didn’t plead, he can’t eat his cake and have it too.
“ if they prevail, then they walk free and there’s nothing the government can do”
Are you saying there’s something the government should be able to do when a defendant prevails at trial?
And in case you missed it, this defendant did not spurn a plea deal…
“Are you saying there’s something the government should be able to do when a defendant prevails at trial?”
No, of course not. An acquittal is an acquittal. A plea bargain is supposed to make it so the defendant gives up their right to try for one and the people settle for a lesser sentence. The doctrine in general allows criminals to free roll; they can still try for the acquittal and if they walk they walk. If they lose, they turn around and say, “lol, just kidding, my lawyer should have told me to take the plea deal” and get the benefit of the bargain they rejected. So criminals are freerolling.
That’s bad enough, but Jackson is proposing to take it even farther. Even if the people never offer a plea deal, the defendants can take it to trial, lose, say they would have negotiated an imaginary plea deal, and then stick the people with the imaginary deal. So, if this was accepted, criminals get to freeroll even harder. That this is even seriously discussed shows how absurdly pro-criminal some corners of our jurisprudence are.
Well I do like Glenn Reynolds proposal that if someone rejects a plea bargain then they go to trial then the jury should be aware of what terms the prosecutor offered.
For instance if the prosecutor offers manslaughter in a plea bargain but goes to trial claiming first degree murder, then maybe that's something the jury should know.
If the defendant testified, is that something that his lawyer could ask or would it be disallowed by the judge?
In theory I might like that, but like a lot of these "one weird trick"s it's highly gameable. Prosecutors would stop making offers. They would just say things like, "If YOU offered to plead to manslaughter and take 5 years, then there is a strong chance we would take it." Cue the endless litigation about what it means for a prosecutor to make an admissible offer.
I like that too. I was on an aggravated assault jury 15 years ago and guilt was obvious but we argued like hell over the sentence. Most people wanted life, but it was the guy’s first violent offense so I was arguing for 50 years, give or take. Finally I caved after several hours and agreed to 85, and felt terrible about it.
We knew he had an accomplice. After we finished the prosecutor and the defense lawyer and the judge came in and talked to us about stuff. One of the tidbits we got was that the accomplice pled guilty and got 30 years, and that our guy turned down the same deal. I got pissed and looked around the room at my fellow jurors but none of them would look me in the eye.
Having that knowledge during deliberation would have been very helpful.
"Having that knowledge during deliberation would have been very helpful."
Why? To let the defendant have his cake and eat it too by rejecting a plea bargain and dragging everyone through trial but still get a low sentence because someone else chose to accept responsibility? You're taking away any incentive to offer a plea deal. The entire point of them is supposed to be that both sides get something -- the State doesn't have the time, expense, and difficulty to witnesses of trial, and the defendant gets a lower sentence.
I'm not sure I follow the logic here. The posture described by Justice Jackson means that even if Davis were to win in the Supreme Court, he could easily end up losing his case. I can see why the Supreme Court might want to take a case even if a successful petitioner might end up not getting any relief after several more years of litigation, but that fact hardly seems like an affirmative reason to grant cert.
Her logic, which actually does make some sense, is that the facts of this case are very straightforward in implicating a question of law only. They won't have to get into the weeds with whether a certain fact of the case makes it a little bit different, or whether a subsequent fact makes it moot. So it makes an ideal vehicle for deciding this question of law
It's...not a good case.
To start with, this isn't the first case by this individual to make it up the appeals court.
https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/ca11/12-12928/12-12928-2014-06-11.html
Second, it insinuates a whole bunch of stuff. If your lawyer didn't deliberately go and try to seek a deal from the prosecution...even if you pled innocent...you can try to claim incompetent counsel? Even if you didn't want your lawyer to seek a deal in the first place?
As it is, defendants can spurn a plea offer and take it to trial. If they prevail, then they walk free and there’s nothing the government can do. If they don’t, then they go back and argue ineffective assistance of counsel to get the plea offer back. It’s heads the criminal wins, tails the people lose,
Were they made aware of the plea offer before trial?
And you're overlooking the other side - that prosecutors routinely overcharge defendants, adding up additional charges, or charging graver felonies to encourage even innocent defendants to take a plea*. The plea bargaining system was never instituted for the benefit of defendants.
* Prosecutors have a no-lose here. An innocent defendant may rationally decide to take a plea because the adverse consequences of a conviction for a serious offence, even if low-probability, may be too great.
Which is why plea agreements, consent decrees and deferred prosecutions should be rare.
I'm all for requiring all crimes to be tried.
I doubt that assertion.
A BULLSHIT comment, from a congenital BULLSHITTER, about a BULLSHIT story, by BULLSHIT writers in a BULLSHIT “newspaper” (the winner of several BULLSHIT Pulitzers) about a BULLSHIT “special grand jury," convened by a BULLSHIT AG with the approval of a BULLSHIT judge. Did I mention that this was BULLSHIT?
Hey! You can spell your name in ALL CAPS!
Now off with you, you effeminate, annoying little troll.
Live up to your screen name and move on.
Disaffected, delusional, right-wing assholes are among my favorite culture war casualties.
And the core target audience of a white, male, faux libertarian, fringe blog with an increasingly scant academic veneer.
They wouldn’t be real trials though would they? Since you don’t believe in public defense they wouldn’t truly be adversarial in the vast majority of cases.
"you don’t believe in public defense"
Fake news! I just don't think that the Constitution requires them.
States and cities are welcome to fund it.
If you don’t believe the constitution requires it then you don’t believe the constitution requires an adversarial system. Hence you don’t believe in fair trials.
He knows the words of 2A by heart, but hasn't even heard of 6A.
We had fair trials before Gideon. The Supreme Court held in 1942 that there was no general right to taxpayer paid lawyers, Robert Jackson was in the majority. You are saying he didn't believe in fair trials, which is plenty arrogant of you.
We had fair trials before Gideon.
LOL. You’re too much.
But even if that were the case: it says nothing about now. I mean do you know how complex criminal law has gotten since Jackson was around?
It’s like you are absolutely incapable of understanding things.
I mean YOU couldn’t do it. Why would you expect a pro se to do it and it be “fair.”
"I mean do you know how complex criminal law has gotten since Jackson was around?"
...and why is that? Has real "crime" changed so much or has so much been criminalized?
He's hopeless, he thinks he's smarter and better than Robert freaking Jackson. A child.
Legislators have made it more complicated with complex sentencing schemes. Scientific and forensic evidence has greatly improved but there is also a lot more junk science out there too. There is a much more sophisticated understanding of psychology and how that affects criminal behavior and courts and legislators have recognized that. Criminal law intersects with technology in new and unprecedented. There is a much more better understanding of what people’s rights mean. The concept of victims rights has evolved as well.
In 1944, when Jackson was on the bench, a 14 year old black boy named George Stinney was “tried” for the murder of two white girls to an all white jury.
The evidence against him was conflicting versions of a confession he supposedly gave police. The defense lawyer who was not required to be effective asked no questions and presented no case. The all white jury found him guilty after a less than day long trial. He was executed by electric chair a few months later.
This is the type of trial that Bob thinks is fair. An uncounseled farce that couldn’t happen today because courts and legislators correctly recognized that this was not justice in any sense of the word and the constitution demands much more.
This is the trial Bob thinks constitutes “due process” and is “fair.” It’s why he’s a disgrace to the entire legal profession. Anyone who thinks this system was “fair” has no business being an attorney.
Bob,
You think you’re “smarter” than every justice after you who has rejected your position! That’s just as childish!
And you have a childish understanding of law, history, and society. Your inability to grasp nuance and complexities is far more childish than anything I ever have said.
300 heated words in response to 14. Impressive.
Its not Jim Crow 1944 anymore. Nor was the whole country like that in 1944.
Well, gotta go home now. Pleasure yourself uncontested.
Difficult concepts take more words to explain. When you grow up you’ll realize that some topics can’t be explained in the amount of words contained in “Where’s Spot?”
Bigoted Republicans like Bob from Ohio cry a little bit every time they consider this point.
It does not appear that Davis was "overcharged" in this case. He committed numerous armed robberies and was charged for them.
More often than not, "overcharging" is really giving the appropriate charges according the the statutes. But, we have become so accustomed to plea bargains and light sentences that charging an armed robber with armed robbery is considered "overcharging" by many people.
If Trump is charged and convicted of insurrection, should he get 40 years? If not, 40 years is not a light sentence for this armed robber.
If Barry Hussein O is charged and convicted of raping the USA should he be hung?? If not, hanging is not a light sentence for rapists.
I thought the proper term is "hanged" and hung was reserved for junk and Christmas stockings.
like I said, "Hung"
Of topic SL. Off topic.
Not really. I’ve seen capital murders overcharged where the guy actually did the basic act worthy of a death sentence under the law but the state still added charges and specs that the jury didn’t buy either. Also seen gun specs added on out-there theories of constructive possession. Overcharging is definitely a thing.
"Were they made aware of the plea offer before trial?"
I agree that if plea offer is made, and the defense attorney fails to convey that to his/her client, that is a very serious breach of legal competence. Perhaps justifying some relief. (What relief? Not a new trial, the defendant had one and was convicted. Perhaps a reduction in sentence.)
I believe in this case, however, no plea bargain was offered to this defendant, although other defendants reached plea agreements. The argument is, my lawyer should have pursued one, and I would have gotten a comparable deal. That strikes me as speculation.
To be clear, the Supreme Court already confronted this issue in 2012 (and more or less agreed with you, including on the difficulty of fashioning a remedy).
Justice Jackson wrote a very cogent and reasonable dissent. You may disagree with it - you may think people who commit serious crimes lose their entitlement to be treated similarly to others or have the benefits of legal representation. But “effective assistance of counsel” is right in the text of the constitution. It’s not some judge-made law. It applies to criminals. And it has to mean something.
I am rather ashamed of the commentators on this blog who have been repeatedly pointing out that Justice Jackson black, as if is proof positive that whe’s incompetent and unqualified and has nothing of value to say, indeed seem to think it means everything and anything she has to say can’t be hearing. “Back to the plantation where you belong and start hoeing those fields!” Is what these folks seem to be saying.
And these very folks, these very same folks, have the temerity to bullshit that there’s no such thing as racism in this country and that anyone who tries to say there is is engaging in “Woke ideology” and whatnot, corrupting our schoolchildren into thinking that everything isn’t all nice and white in America and we might have a bit of a color problem. The very same folks!
Shame on them!
“effective assistance of counsel” is right in the text of the constitution"
"effective" is in fact not in the text
Then what’s the point of the right?
Whatever the point is, the word is still not "right in the text". The concept may be implied from the text but its not in the literal words.
Cool you agree with the racist guy below. Hope you’re proud of that.
Cool, you can't read.
Actually I can. I can read your shitty comments over the past three years and on this this thread and his shitty racist comments right now and you are in perfect alignment on the topic of indigent defense.
LTG, Why do you let Bob troll you so effectively? He does not listen to a word you say. Your mute button would be more effective
As a member of the same bar as him it drives me insane that someone so openly immoral and uncommitted to having fairness in the legal system is out there practicing and giving people advice.
I mean if you actually believe that that constitution doesn’t require indigent defense and that criminal trials of unrepresented individuals with high school education would be “fair” because things like that were more common in the 1940s, well you shouldn’t be a lawyer. It requires either complete stupidity in which case your representation will be incompetent or complete dishonesty about what constitutes fairness in which case you shouldn’t be participating in a system that occasionally strives for it.
And then there’s the general immoral ghoulishness. People who say “need a tissue” to someone listing victims of police abuses (including children) have no business being lawyers either. Law is by its nature a social enterprise and someone so committed to anti-social behavior and views shouldn’t be involved either.
People like him don’t belong in this profession. He degrades it every day he is a member.
Neither is the right to have someone else pay for it. Indigent defendants should have to defend themselves or rely on charity. If no one will, and they're convicted, that just means a worthless parasite was convicted. Fine with me.
Beat that strawman. The fact is the people largely say she's an affirmative action hire with a far left ideology so divorced from reality it forces her to claim she cannot define what a woman is. I can understand why pro-crime leftists gravitate toward that and deflect from it when challenged but that doesn't change reality.
Here she wants to expand the pro-criminal protections to include things that don't exist to further muck up the legal works. If the lawyer did a shit job at trial or missed multiple deadlines then fine but to demand consideration of possibilities not on offer because they could have been.
So a few points.
1. It's "Assistance of Counsel for his defence"
2. It's something of a stretch to say "If counsel didn't deliberately go and try to get a guilty deal, even if the client pled innocent, the counsel is ineffective".
I mean, I'm of the opinion that if your client says "I'm innocent, I'm pleading innocent"....then going behind their back to the prosecution saying "We want a guilty plea deal, what will you give us" is actually somewhat unethical. As a lawyer, you should, to the best extent possible, listen to your client's wishes.
If he doesn’t want a deal he doesn’t have to take it. But the lawyer also has to protect his clients legal interests to the best extent possible and that requires finding out what the best deal he can get from the prosecutors is so his client can make an informed decision. I mean I suppose the client can instruct the lawyer not to discuss pleas at all, in which case it’s his duty not to, but the lawyer would have to strongly advise against that, and it would likely be unethical and ineffective for them not to advise a client of the perils of not even seeing what plea is possible.
That's the target audience Prof. Volokh and a few of the other Conspirators carefully cultivate. If this bothers you, you are at the wrong blog.
A tangential thought. Once AI writing apps can pass state bar exams, lawyers will have a field day trying to defend turf which the marketplace for legal services will finally deny them. A lot of the market for lower-end legal work will simply bypass the law offices.
That will mean plenty of idle lower-end lawyers, probably available cheap. That could help remedy the problem with too many plea bargains. Not sure the quality of the newly-available legal services for criminal defendants will come to be regarded as a bragging point for the profession, but you can't have everything.
Which raises the question is a shit eating low rent lawyer more or less effective counsel than an AI defense.
My point is not that AI will be doing criminal defense. My point is that AI will be advising on things like little contracts, wills, titles, neighbor disputes, small business set-ups etc. On things like that folks who might once have relied on lawyers will be content to rely instead on their computers. Lawyers will not like that, and will try to block it. But a lot of the services being replaced will be situated farther up the irrigation ditch, as it were, above the point where it becomes practical to interfere with the flow. I think the free market will create enormous scope to use AI to do legal work outside professional channels.
That will cut into work available to lower-end lawyers, who will then start to compete to do more ambitious stuff. A national bar under growing pressure to find more work might think it expedient to have more courts and do more jury trials.
I guess. I haven’t seen any AI output to suggest that that’s coming any time soon.
Noscitur, when it happens, it will take you by surprise. With your actual expertise to critique legal AI, all its deficiencies will stand out in high relief. Which will turn out beside the point.
While you struggle to point out problems to people unqualified to understand what you are talking about, they will be voting with their pocketbooks. They will be attracted to enormous savings, ease of access, and a standardized product they can learn to use warily, but nevertheless to trust. Lawyers will caution them they will lose money if they go with AI. They will think, yeah, and I can also lose money going with a lawyer, and still have to pay a fee on top of the loss.
My general position is that judicial decisions that address the specific issues the Framers wrote about are legitimate even if based on a different judicial philosophy from mine. And in general, I think that the court’s liberals are entitled to argue for a more expansive interpretation of enumerated rights. Justice Scalia periodically did the same.
Here the framers specifically talked about “assistance of counsel.” Justice Jackson is within her rights to argue that in a world where nearly all criminal prosecutions end in plea bargaining, assistance of counsel during the potential plea bargaining period becomes as important to making the enumerated right meaningful as assistance of counsel during the trial.
I don't know why you're laughing. Biden proudly announced that she was an Affirmative Action hire!
"Stray Voltage", you doofuses are always so easy to trigger.
I can imagine Pete Booty-Judge stepping on rakes all day long, he's certainly been doing it the last several weeks.
Right. But she's not embarrassing. That's the point.
Did you complain when former Pres. Reagan made a similar announcement?
So was Clarence Thomas, but Bush the Greater lied about it. Is that any better?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWtGzJxiONU
"What's a woman?"
"Durr, durr hurr, I'm not a biologist, herrr durrr duh"
F'n embarrassing. Up there with Biden shitting his pants.
She's not embarrassed, she's embarrassing to her Almer Mater and those who know what "Ketanji" means in Swahili
Frank
So was Thorogood Marshall but LBJ How many Kids did you kill today? lied about it, Is that any better? (And Robert KKK Bird voted against both Marshall and Thomas but wasn't Race-ist)
Did your victims complain when you (redacted) them Jerry?
Okay, groomer.
Learn to spell.
The definition of woman is only controversial to idiots and the mentally ill.
ftw
Michelle Obama is hung.
“Anyone who can only think of one way to spell a word obviously lacks imagination.”
― Mark Twain
I can learn to spell (if I wanted to) but you'll always be stupid
Frank Drackman
the "Win" is when Queen dies from the Hiv-ie
What "debate"?
Among idiots and the mentally ill?
No rational and moderately intelligent person has a problem defining a woman.
There is no debate. There’s a bunch of idiots and mentally ill people trying to convince us Normals that there’s a debate about what a woman is.
But since we already know what a woman is, and they do not have penises, as there's no such thing as a female penis, the only that's left is a bunch of mentally ill people and idiots stamping their feet trying to change reality.
"If you can keep your Twig & Berries when all about you
Are losing theirs...."
People who believe (or claim to believe) that fairy tales -- childish fairy tales, pure superstition involving illusory beings -- should be careful with respect to introducing claims of mental illness to any discussion.
she has, umm make that "had" a Uterus
No "Transitioning" she got tired of "the Curse", "The Red Tide" "The Monthly Flow" "That time of the Month"
had it snatched out the old fashioned way, like the "Alien" busting out of John Hurt (just a little lower)
Frank some 45 years later, and guess what? no Uterine Cancer (I know, nothing you'll have either)
Frank
Oh god do we have two of these people now?
Look into the issue with a skeptic's eye and you would be surprised.
Mis-spelled 'septic.'
This is the best that can come to your defense, and to the defense of your fellow clingers, Prof. Volokh. Are you proud of this?