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The Continuing Relevance of Frederick Douglass
Douglass is best-known for his role in the abolitionist movement that helped end slavery. But much of his thought is also relevant to contemporary issues.

February is Black History Month. And there are few more prominent figures in black American history than Frederick Douglass. Today, he is primarily remembered for his role in the abolitionist movement, and for his inspiring and compelling autobiography, which recounts his escape from slavery and subsequent life. But Douglass was also a wide-ranging thinker who wrote about numerous issues. Many of his writings and speeches, including lesser-known ones, are strikingly relevant to modern controversies. In this post, I cover a few notable examples.
While Douglass is best-known for arguing for racial equality within the United States, he also argued, in his 1869 "Composite Nation" speech (a critique of then-growing calls for restricting Chinese immigration), that the same principles forbid immigration restrictions, particularly those motivated by a desire to keep out particular racial, ethnic, or cultural groups:
I submit that this question of Chinese immigration should be settled upon higher principles than those of a cold and selfish expediency.
There are such things in the world as human rights. They rest upon no conventional foundation, but are external, universal, and indestructible. Among these, is the right of locomotion; the right of migration; the right which belongs to no particular race, but belongs alike to all and to all alike. It is the right you assert by staying here, and your fathers asserted by coming here. It is this great right that I assert for the Chinese and Japanese, and for all other varieties of men equally with yourselves, now and forever. I know of no rights of race superior to the rights of humanity, and when there is a supposed conflict between human and national rights, it is safe to go to the side of humanity.
Douglass was one of the first to realize that immigration restrictions have much in common with racial discrimination. That speech also addresses a number of still-standard justifications for immigration restrictions, such as fears that they are justified by the need to prevent natives' culture from being "swamped" by that of migrants.
Douglass' 1871 Decoration Day speech is highly relevant to longstanding debates over how Americans should remember the Civil War. To this day, there are those who argue that the Confederate cause was justified, or at least that - for the sake of national unity - we shouldn't denigrate it. Douglass had little patience for such ideas:
We are sometimes asked, in the name of patriotism, to forget the merits of this fearful struggle, and to remember with equal admiration those who struck at the nation's life and those who struck to save it, those who fought for slavery and those who fought for liberty and justice.
I am no minister of malice. I would not strike the fallen. I would not repel the repentant; but may my "right hand forget her cunning and my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth," if I forget the difference between the parties to that terrible, protracted, and bloody conflict….
The essence and significance of our devotions here to-day are not to be found in the fact that the men whose remains fill these graves were brave in battle. If we met simply to show our sense of bravery, we should find enough on both sides to kindle admiration….
But we are not here to applaud manly courage, save as it has been displayed in a noble cause. We must never forget that victory to the rebellion meant death to the republic…. If today we have a country not boiling in an agony of blood… if now we have a united country, no longer cursed by the hell-black system of human bondage…. , we are indebted to the unselfish devotion of the noble army who rest in these honored graves all around us.
This has obvious relevance to modern controversies, such as the debate over taking down Confederate monuments, and the more general issue of how we should think about the slavery and the Civil War. As I have pointed out previously, condemning the Confederacy and celebrating its defeat does not require us to excuse or justify everything done by the Union side in the war (nor did Douglass make any such claim).
One of Douglass' most famous works was his 1852 July 4 speech, "What to the Slave is the Fourth of July?" This is today mainly remembered for its blistering condemnation of American slavery and hypocrisy about liberty. But it's worth emphasizing that it also praises the ideals of the American Founding, and even the founders themselves, as in this passage:
The signers of the Declaration of Independence were brave men. They were great men too — great enough to give fame to a great age. It does not often happen to a nation to raise, at one time, such a number of truly great men. The point from which I am compelled to view them is not, certainly, the most favorable; and yet I cannot contemplate their great deeds with less than admiration. They were statesmen, patriots and heroes, and for the good they did, and the principles they contended for, I will unite with you to honor their memory.
They loved their country better than their own private interests; and, though this is not the highest form of human excellence, all will concede that it is a rare virtue, and that when it is exhibited, it ought to command respect. He who will, intelligently, lay down his life for his country, is a man whom it is not in human nature to despise. Your fathers staked their lives, their fortunes, and their sacred honor, on the cause of their country. In their admiration of liberty, they lost sight of all other interests.
They were peace men; but they preferred revolution to peaceful submission to bondage. They were quiet men; but they did not shrink from agitating against oppression. They showed forbearance; but that they knew its limits. They believed in order; but not in the order of tyranny. With them, nothing was "settled" that was not right. With them, justice, liberty and humanity were "final;" not slavery and oppression. You may well cherish the memory of such men.
Both Douglass' denunciation of slavery and hypocrisy and his praise of the American Revolution and Declaration of Independence are relevant to current debates about how we should teach and think about American history. The former is a rebuke to those on the right who seek to minimize or ignore America's wrongs. The latter to those on the left who claim its liberal ideals are insignificant compared to those wrongs, or even contributors to them.
While Douglass was a trenchant critic of the racial bigotry and oppression of his day, he also warned against responding to it with "pride of race" - what we today might call identity politics:
Do we not know that every argument we make, and every pretension we set up in favor of race pride, is giving the enemy a stick to break our own heads?… We cannot afford to draw the color-line in politics, trade, education, manners, religion, fashion, or civilization. Especially we cannot afford to draw the color-line in politics.
In the last speech of his life, "The Blessings of Liberty and Education," he counseled relying on universal principles instead:
We hear, since emancipation, much said by our modern colored leaders in commendation of race pride, race love, race effort, race superiority, race men, and the like. One man is praised for being a race man and another is condemned for not being a race man. In all this talk of race, the motive may be good, but the method is bad. It is an effort to cast out Satan by Beelzebub….. The evils which are now crushing the negro to earth have their root and sap, their force and mainspring, in this narrow spirit of race and color, and the negro has no more right to excuse and foster it than have men of any other race. I recognize and adopt no narrow basis for my thoughts, feelings, or modes of action. I would place myself, and I would place you, my young friends, upon grounds vastly higher and broader than any founded upon race or color…. We are not recommended to love or hate any particular variety of the human family more than any other….
Hence, at the risk of being deficient in the quality of love and loyalty to race and color, I confess that in my advocacy of the colored man's cause, whether in the name of education or freedom, I have had more to say of manhood and of what is comprehended in manhood and in womanhood, than of the mere accident of race and color; and, if this is disloyalty to race and color, I am guilty. I insist upon it that the lesson which colored people, not less than white people, ought now to learn, is, that there is no moral or intellectual quality in the color of a man's cuticle; that color, in itself, is neither good nor bad; that to be black or white is neither a proper source of pride or of shame.
If this is an indictment of left-wing identity politics, it also equally at odds with the ethno-nationalism of much of the modern right, such as the "national conservatives."
Douglass' views on the US Constitution also have great potential relevance for our time. He started out as an adherent of the view - advanced by the great abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison - that the Constitution was irredeemably pro-slavery. But he gradually shifted to the almost completely opposite view that the Constitution - even before the enactment of the Thirteenth Amendment - was actually anti-slavery.
Along with other abolitionist constitutionalists, he reached that conclusion by elevating text and natural right principles over what modern legal theorists call "original expected applications" (how contemporaries thought the Constitution would be applied).
This approach poses a challenge to many on the left who reject textualism and originalism in part because they believe these methodologies inevitably lead to racist results. But it also challenges many conservative versions of originalism, that give original expected applications more weight.
My co-blogger Randy Barnett insightfully explores some of the implications of abolitionist constitutionalism in an important 2011 article. The subject has attracted interest from other modern scholars, as well. But modern constitutional theory could benefit from much greater engagement with this body of work.
Unlike in the case of Douglass's views on immigration, the Civil War, the American Revolution, and racial pride, I am only partly persuaded by his take on the Constitution. I fear the pre-Civil War Constitution was more heavily tainted by compromises with slavery than Douglass was willing to admit (though not as much so as claimed by Garrisonians, nineteenth century defenders of slavery, and many modern left-wing critics of originalism). But abolitionist constitutionalism nonetheless deserves our serious consideration and respect.
The above does little more than scratch the surface of Frederick Douglass's relevance to modern debates. There is much, much more, where that came from. But I hope I have at least said enough to convince readers to take a closer look at these and other aspects of his writings. They pose significant challenges to right and left, alike.
In reading even the greatest thinkers of earlier eras, we commonly find ideas that are parochial, anachronistic, obviously invalidated by later developments, or just simply irrelevant to modern concerns. Douglass's work isn't completely free of such problems. But the extent to which he avoided them is remarkable.
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Agreed!
Frederick Douglass is an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is being recognized more and more, I notice.
Frank
I didn’t expect you to point out the minimal competence and knowledge of today’s Republican Party.
Note: the last two Democratic Presidents taught Constitutional Law (the most prestigious law school course) at the most prestigious law schools in their home states. Whereas we haven’t had a Republican President who could talk knowledgeably since Nixon.
Obama was a noted constitutional scholar, one of the brightest of his generation. Even Joe Biden recognized it.
IIRC Biden called Obama clean and articulate.
That was Barry's twin, "Barak America"
Obama studied the Constitution the way a pest exterminator studies entomology. You can see this in his approach to the Constitution; One year he declares he has no constitutional power to do something, the next he declares that Congress having failed to do it, he will.
Assuming for the sake of argument he was great, when he switched jobs to president, he decided he could tell the Senate when it was in session, or when S&P downgraded the US' credit rating, immediately announced an IRS investigation into it.
These are not the actions of a constitutional scholar. These are the actions of a political hack.
And in no way do I single him out as a president in that respect.
He understood that the Constitution operates via, and operates on, the political institutions of the US.
When his Office of General Counsel told him something, he did not completely substitute his own feelings for their advice.
Your Constitutional world is simple. All institutions are Brett, and all perspectives are Brett's. And all who operate differently than the Brettarchy are operating in bad faith.
Your telepathic analysis of Obama as a Constitution-hating wannabe tyrant is more a citation to your own pride than anything real.
Word salad to try to push out of people's minds the objective fact that, one year, 'constitutional scholar' Obama correctly points out that he doesn't have the authority to do DACA on his own say-so, he needs Congress to pass a law. The next year, he cites Congress not passing the law as a reason for acting on his own say-so.
You don’t understand taking on institutional equites or taking advice from your OGC.
Figures.
More word salad.
Obama notoriously claimed he was the smartest man in any room, you think he showed humility in deferring to somebody else's constitutional judgment?
No, he knew the Constitution didn't allow him to do it on his own, but didn't really care.
Obama notoriously claimed he was the smartest man in any room,
Way to kill your credibility off the break.
“I think that I’m a better speechwriter than my speechwriters,” Mr. Obama told Patrick Gaspard, his political director, at the start of the 2008 campaign, according to The New Yorker. “I know more about policies on any particular issue than my policy directors. And I’ll tell you right now that I’m going to think I’m a better political director than my political director.”
This is not notorious; maybe it's passed around your Obama-obsessed circles, but this is not anything he said in public.
Insisting based on this random quote that Obama is not the type to listen to his Office of General Counsel, or change his mind once he sees thing from the perspective of being President is just your hate writing people sekret inner minds as usual.
Stop calling people you disagree with liars! And stop claiming people who disagree with you want to destroy the Constitution.
You can have heterodox views; but insisting everyone else does and is lying about it is just hating instead of arguing.
You mean B-B-B-B-B-a R-R-R-R-Y H-H-H ussein O-O-O-bama???
The guy who talked about Navy "Corpse-men" and the "Nittily Lions"??? You couldn't make a better case against "Affirmative Action" why are his College grades Top Secret (doesn't really matter now, does it? probably find them in Hunter's hotel room)
Did not know that Senescent Joe taught anything, guy can barely ride a bike, who did he plagarize his lecture notes from??
Seriously, take a few swings in the batting cage before you step in against a professional,
Frank
I can't imagine how long your list of misspoken words is for George "Edumication" W. Bush.
At least our children was learning when "W" was in Orifice.
He was an adjunct who did a couple of summer special topics courses.
You people are always such despicable liars when you’re licking boots.
Douglass was one of the great Americans. Maybe in the top 3.
OK, I get it, February, BLM, but "top 3"???
I'm not sure he'd be in the top 3 Afro-Amuricans, you're leaving out the one guy, who still inspires awe and respect, among Amuricans of all Ethnic Races, Creeds (hate Creed), and Religions (hate Religions almost as much as Creed)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilt_Chamberlain
Frank
These are your fans, Volokh Conspirators.
Are you proud of this?
Apparently
Douglass was NOT popular amongst the GAR folks, whose grandchildren I personally knew.
Reading this, I am starting to understand why.
He was the first of the "I deserve it" crowd, and you'll notice that he really doesn't thank all the WHITE boys from places like Maine that died to end slavery.
Well Fire trUCK him.
There is Lincoln's Second Inaugural Address -- and what could have been if Lincoln had lived -- and then "I deserve it" Douglass.
Well, Fire trUCK him...
And why am I not surprised that this was written by Ilya???
ENTIRE TOWNS in the north evaporated because the all the young men in that town's unit were dead and everyone moved away, but, whatever....
Wow. Just wow.
And since the armies were organized around states and counties whenever a particular unit got caught in a tight spot at a particular battle a community would experience a huge proportion of men in a certain age group dead or maimed. It was north and south, everywhere. The worst I’m familiar with is the 1st Minnesota, who suffered an astonishing 82% casualty rate at Gettysburg.
I don't have any idea what Dr. Ed is talking about with "I deserve it," and Dr. Ed doesn't either. But of course he did deserve it, whatever "it" is supposed to be, but for some reason Dr. Ed thinks that "WHITE boys from places like Maine" deserve it.
One of which DIED for every ten slaves that were freed.
War is actually not an exchange of lives for gratefulness.
Get fucked.
"Get Fucked"?? now who's the Roosh-un "Bot"??
Real Americans say "Fuck You" or its Future Imperative form, "Go Fuck Yourself"
but "Get Fucked??" it's a sentence fragment, like "Got Milk?"
as in "I went to College to "get fucked""
and why is "Getting Fucked" consider a bad thing, I like getting fucked, unless it was getting fucked by a Dude, not that there's anything wrong with that (Only the Hiv-ie, Hep C, Condyloma, Giardia)
Frank "Grammatarian Laurete"
There’s a job for you at Disney somewhere.
https://mobile.twitter.com/JackPosobiec/status/1622245619929698305
Why is it so common to accuse black people - usually athletes who step out of line and comment on some contemporary issue - of being ungrateful?
My take is that Douglass was considered more a criminal, kinda like the January 6th folks are today. Reading below, I'm starting to see why.
How would an articulate Jan 6th protester be viewed were he/she/it to flee to some place without an extradition treaty?
Just another person who inexplicably ruined their lives for Trump.
Comparing someone who is advocating for abolition of slavery to someone who rioted because their side lost an election is certainly a comparison you can make if you want. Anything can be compared. Don’t let the fact that there’s really nothing in common between the two stop you.
“I have had more to say of manhood and of what is comprehended in manhood and in womanhood, than of the mere accident of race and color”
OMG patriarchal, sexist, transphobic and anti-gay.
To those who claim that "the left" has taken over education, and that history used to be taught without all these "political agendas" let me just say that my own public school education never so much as mentioned Frederick Douglass.
I got George Washington Carver, the 1980s dramatization of 12 Years a Slave, the Chicago race riots of 1919, and school desegregation. These would all have been in conformity with the Florida standards, since there was nothing about how modern whites are to blame for these things, or what have you.
Of course there was a political agenda - to remind the kids of bad as well as good stuff and urge students to avoid the former and celebrate the latter.
Wow. Can I ask what region and decade?
The town where I attended high school had a statue of 'The Brave Confederate Soldier' guarding city hall, but we read Frederick Douglass and studied Harriet Tubman.
Booker T Washington and George Washington Carver were featured right up there with Edison and Fulton.
The small town I grew up in had one of those anonymous confederate soldiers on a pedestal on the courthouse square too. Facing north in case those Yankee bastards decided to come back (I guess).
But we got Douglass and Tubman as part of the Civil War part of history. All of my elementary school teachers were elderly women except for Miss Espy in 3rd grade (hubba hubba) but I don’t believe that any of them were favorably inclined toward slavery. I don’t remember any of them saying anything racist, which is more than I can say for most of my friends’ parents.
Those Confederate Statues used to confuse me as a child (as does the NBA's Foul "Bonus" rules, can anyone explain those?)
They always seemed to be placed at an angle to everything else, sometimes even looking away from everything else.
"Dad, why is Robert E. Lee standing the wrong way???" I asked one day,
"He's facing North, watching out for the Yankees"
That was when the only Yankees in Georgia were military families,
Frank "Southern by the grace of Jehovah"
1960's.
Alabama. Surprised?
We did get a sentence or two about Booker T. Washington.
Also a lot about how terrible Reconstruction was and the nobility of the Confederates.
It's interesting how patchy it seems to be. The (public) school I went to wasn't exactly a hotbed of modernity - when I arrived they were still bringing in preachers four days a week for mandatory chapel services :-). But there wasn't even a whiff of racism in the curriculum.
Yeah it’s weird. The public elementary school I went to was still segregated until the start of my third grade year. But there wasn’t any noticeable racism that I remember. The black kids just showed up at the start of that year and we sat next to each other in class and played together at recess and everything was kinda the same. I don’t remember any conflict at all.
I don’t remember what we were taught about the confederacy, although it does seem like what we were taught about Lincoln and Grant wasn’t as positive as you might think it would be. I remember learning about Grant’s drinking problem and his scandal wracked presidency. And we were taught that reconstruction was punitive because, well, it was intended to be so and in practice it was.
It comes to mind that it might have been a time where a few years one way or the other could matter a lot. The smallish town where I went to grades 7-12 had a middle school and a high school. I remember opening up a book in the middle school library and stamped on page 53 or whatever was ‘Property of the Booker T Washington[1] Colored School’, which was a bit startling. Apparently until fairly recently the now-middle school had been the K-12 school for blacks; after desegregation it became the middle school for everyone. So if we had gone to school a decade earlier, we might have had a curriculum more like Bernard’s.
[1]or George Washington Carver or some other prominent African-American, I don’t remember.
I’ve never considered Bernard’s age, so I don’t know.
It could simply be related to the fact that Alabama was more hard core on the civil rights stuff than Tennessee was. Tennessee wasn’t a walk in the park, but we really didn’t have officials that carried it to the degree George Wallace and Bull Connor did.
We had the heroic Buford Pusser instead. 🙂
Recall that Tennessee was not by any means totally pro-secession. The eastern part of the state was pro-union throughout, probably in large part because it was Appalachian, and not suited for plantations. Subsistence agriculture was the norm.
In fact, that part of the state remained Republican all through the era of the Solid South. One result was that when the Republicans started to take over the South Tennessee already had a base of GOP politicians, who began to dominate state elections. These people, what I think of as the Howard Baker wing, were conservative, certainly, but basically intelligent and reasonable, unlike, say, Marsha Blackburn and the current gang of idiots running the state.
And Tennessee was pretty much the first seceding state to be forced back in because of its location and the fact that it wasn’t Virginia. St Louis was probably more racist and confederate than my hometown was, although we did have the statue.
I remember Baker. In ‘67 or ‘68 I had a 2nd cousin that was badly wounded in Vietnam. His poor country parents couldn’t get any info out of the Defense Department. My mom was a reporter for the paper in the small town where we lived, so she called Baker’s office and told them that she was writing a story about the cousin for tomorrow’s paper and suggested it would really be nice if she could include a line in it about how much Baker had done to help the boy’s mama. Within two hours she got a call back from Baker’s chief of staff who told her that starting the next day someone from the DoD would be calling his parents daily with an update on his condition until he was well enough to be flown home.
In 1966, when I was in college and working on the student paper I got myself the assignment of following Baker’s Senate campaign for a day.
Campaigns were smaller then, so I and about three real reporters rode around town in a station wagon with Baker and a campaign aide all day, stopping for speeches at various places. I was impressed with what I saw, and I guess I wasn’t the only one as he went on to win handily over a relatively popular Democrat, becoming the first Republican Senator from TN since Reconstruction.
Never knew him of course but he seemed ok. He pulled a string to help out my cousin’s parents.
And of course he became nationally known due to the Watergate hearings, at which he didn’t embarrass himself despite being in an uncomfortable spot.
Ummm, Tennessee was involved in the freedom rides...
It was and they were.
And there was a "Booker T. Washington" High School in Montgomery Alabama from 1948 to 1970 (when it was closed, Yay Intergration!! with it's students being split between Robert E. Lee, Jefferson Davis, and Sidney Lanier High Schools.)
And fun fact, Track at-uh-lete from BTW still holds the state record in the Javelin,
Frank
"Also a lot about how terrible Reconstruction was and the nobility of the Confederates."
Reconstruction *was* terrible, and a terrible mistake -- if only Lincoln had lived...
Reconstruction was not terrible at all.
I mean if all you were taught was all about carpetbaggers and whatnot you might think so, but from the POV of the freedmen it was pretty good. They actually enjoyed political power, and some degree of opportunity, not to mention, you know, freedom.
The former slaveholders hated it, no doubt. Tough shit.
And I have yet to understand why anyone thinks the confederates were noble, though maybe that's just Frank trolling, or he never got over whatever he was taught in the 8th grade.
Drunken Union soldiers raping women (of all races) with impunity comes to mind. The Freedmen were exploited because they were illiterate -- they had votes but no power.
Oh shut up.
You have no fucking idea what you are talking about.
Wow they went from heroes to monsters in the space of one comment thread. A record?
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=that+escalated+quickly&&view=detail&mid=E159B0EB099D9E1A84A5E159B0EB099D9E1A84A5&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dthat%2Bescalated%2Bquickly%26FORM%3DHDRSC3
That's right, Dr. Ed—it was those Northern rapists—the guys you think Frederick Douglass didn't respect enough—who were exploiting former slaves in the south. Brilliant take, no notes.
Dr. Ed is basically just plagiarizing Birth of a Nation here.
Like all successful propaganda, Birth of a Nation had traction because it contained real facts...
Reconstruction was an abysmal failure because it was an imposed occupation that focused too much on revenge and not enough on sustainable reforms.
For example having a racial balance of 76 blacks to 68 whites in the 1868 SC legislature might have felt good to the radical Republicans, but it was unlikely to result in anything other than the vengeful backlash that did occur.
Do you really think the occupation force that imposed that result thought the newly freed slaves were capable of rebuilding the state with lasting reforms, or were they just being used as tools to impose their revenge to be discarded when their control lapsed?
It wasn’t much different than our abandoning our Afghan allies to the Taliban.
Exactly.
And remember that military enlistments in the 19th Century were for relatively short periods of time -- months rather than years -- so with the draft ended with the victory, whom do you think remained in the US Army? (Hint: Read up on the US Army 20 years later in the West.)
I learned about Douglass in the 1960s in Tennessee.
Where did you go to school? Cape Town?
Seriously. What was the nature of the people who built your curriculum?
That would be the Left again. He fought Democrats back then, and Democrats took him out of your schooling.
You must have been one of the few paying attention in high school, I can't remember what they taught in US history that many years ago.
But like most well educated people, only about 1% of my education came from high school. Anyone who depends on schooling to provide what they should know in this world is doing themselves a disservice.
Have to agree that I don't remember much of anything I was taught even as a university student much less as a high school student and I doubt I remember anything from elementary school.
At some point the idea that slavery was bad got embedded in my head but honestly I can't honestly say when. Later on, well after graduation, I started reading some economic stuff about how the US and Haiti were the only two countries that actually fought a war to end slavery and everywhere else it mostly died out on it's own because it was not the most efficient use of human capital. As F. A. Hayek said 'incentives matter'.
On the other hand the idea of what I will term 'virtual servitude' where you can not be bought or sold but are stuck in a situation where you have a very hard time getting out of not only exists but seems to be on the upswing at the moment. At the same time I will point out that there also does seem to be an upswing in what previous posters have termed 'I deserve it'.
Which brings me to my final point that is while it is no great shock to see Illya blabber on about unlimited migration he always fails to address the issue of the cost of such migration. It is trivially easy to find examples of schools, hospitals, and other institutions buckling under the the cost of serving these new migrants; not to mention the economic issues for those at the lower end of the economic ladder who have to compete with the new arrivals. I suspect a lot of the opposition to even limited migration is due to the economic cost it imposes on the areas where that migration occurs.
It was not totally school, though.
These attitudes were very much in the air and water, and were reinforced in school.
An underrated missed opportunity of history is that Douglass’s life crossed over with the beginnings of voice recording yet we don’t have his voice recorded.
We do have Booker T. Washington's, though: https://www.loc.gov/exhibits/civil-rights-act/multimedia/booker-t-washington.html
and probably even better known in the Afro-Amurican "Community"
Booker T. Huffman Jr.[a] (born March 1, 1965),[1] better known by his ring name Booker T, is an American former professional wrestler and color commentator. He is currently signed to WWE where he serves as a commentator on the NXT brand, and is also the owner and founder of the independent promotion Reality of Wrestling (ROW) in Texas City, Texas. Booker has been frequently named by peers and industry commentators as one of the greatest professional wrestlers of all time; he was voted WWE's greatest World Heavyweight Champion in a 2013 viewer poll.
Frank
LawTalkingGuy, however, some historians have claimed that Douglass was the most photographed person in the world during the 19th century. I have no idea whether that stands up, but we do have a lot of images of Douglass. As a tireless and peripatetic advocate, Douglass understood that photographs could bolster his public influence, so he encouraged them.
"February is Black History Month" and to that position in his post Somin is absolutely accurate.
Since 1976, February has been black history month, an expansion of Carter Woodson's black history week. We can all thank Woodson for his book (The Mis-Education of the Negro) which underscores that students can be culturally indoctrinated, rather than taught, in American schools: "When you control a man's thinking you do not have to worry about his actions. You do not have to tell him not to stand here or go yonder. He will find his 'proper place' and will stay in it." We can also thank Woodson for stating that "We should emphasize not Negro History, but the Negro in History. What we need is not a history of selected races or nations, but the history of the world void of national bias, race hatred and religious prejudice."
When expanding the week to a month, President Ford acknowledged that "Freedom and the recognition of individual rights are what our Revolution was all about."
To the limited degree that Douglass née Bailey rejected collectivism in all of its forms and embraced individual rights over racial rights, we can thank him. To the degree that Douglass née Bailey honestly recalled that his life expectancy would have been significantly lower had a blank man not sold his ancestor to a white man, we can thank him. But we must also ridicule the man for his many, many deliberately misleading assertions. Famously, Douglass née Bailey declared "I have no accurate knowledge of my age, never having seen any authentic record containing it," which some fools might tie to slavery rather than a general lack of authoritative birth records for all born in America. [My grandfather, who was never a slave, is among the millions whose birthdate is not precisely known!] Douglass née Bailey also fostered the myth that the south favored continuation of the importation of slaves, when in fact it was northern slave importers who favored importation and celebrated profits from Virginia's law of 1778 (see https://founders.archives.gov/documents/Jefferson/01-02-02-0019) prohibiting importation far sooner than the date specified in the Constitution. Douglass née Bailey knew the truth, but often rejected it; most notably, he knew his mother's (and grandmother's) name, yet deliberately rejected such truth in favor of a myth more to his liking.
Douglass née Bailey was a preacher and we forgive him for the reliance on myth typical of preachers; however, we cannot forgive modern professors for their embrace of mythology and must instead, in the spirit of Carter Woodson, recall that many within the academy are culturally indoctrinating, rather than educating, students.
Not sure if you're quoting something that you neglected to link to, or if you're a terrible person.
I feel pretty sure about whether mydisplayname is a terrible person.
The brevity of your's and David's replies leaves me wondering. Is it that you object to mydisplayname's post as incorrect, or simply inappropriate at this particular time of year? Or something else...
Or is it that only hagiography is acceptable when discussing heros of the anti-slavery / civil rights movement? History warts and all seems the preferred model these days especially.
Here's a useful heuristic: when someone says that slavery was good and that slaves should be grateful for it, substantive engagement is unlikely to be a useful project.
It's not obvious, at least to me, that mydisplayname quoting Douglass means s/he thinks slavery was good. I wonder if Muhammad Ali thought so, when he said the same?
"Frederick Douglass should be ridiculed because he said that he didn't know when he was born" is… a terrible take.
"Frederick Douglass is a liar because he said he didn't know his mother's and grandmother's name" is not even true.
These are picayune complaints. It's as if you're looking for things to dig at him with.
Of course the antebellum Constitution had some unfortunate compromises with slavery, and Lysander Spooner’s eloquence can’t overcome that.
But the tension between the antebellum Constitution and slavery is shown by the many instances of watering-down, or downright ignoring, of the Constitution, by the slaver interests and their appeasers.
From abrogating jury trials, and even judicial trials, for alleged fugitives; to censorship of the mail and suppression of abolitionist petitions; to twisting the Fugitives From Service clause to allow capture of fugitives without due process; to emasculating Congress’ territorial powers, to denying citizenship to free blacks, and therefore denying them the benefit of the Constitution’s protection of citizenship rights; these examples show that the supporters of slavery, and their enablers, found a strict application of the Constitution an obstacle to their aims.
Which is good news for the Constitution – it had to be distorted to make slavery and racial caste fully fit into it.
That Constitution is not our Constitution, and it persisted for over four score years making slavery and racial caste fit within it.
After the slavers sought to insulate themselves from anti-slavery *legislation*, we fixed the Constitution. Though progress continues.
If you hadn't attended Pubic Schools you'd know that Slavery was legal in all of the 13 original states at some point and was only abandoned in the most Northern states for Economic and Geographic reasons (Much easier to run to Canada from Tonawanda NY than from Tuscumbia AL)
Even Senescent Joe's Slave state of Delaware didn't ratify the 13th Amendment until 1901.
https://calendar.eji.org/racial-injustice/feb/12#:~:text=Finally%2C%20on%20February%2012%2C%201901%2C%20Delaware%20ratified%20the,30%20years%20after%20the%20rest%20of%20the%20nation.
Frank
WRONG.
See: https://www.mass.gov/guides/massachusetts-constitution-and-the-abolition-of-slavery
Slavery was found to be inconsistent with the principles that the Revolutionary War was fought for…
Bear in mind that (a) Canada didn’t ban slavery until 1833, and (b) it wasn’t necessary for escaped slaves to go to Canada until the Fugitive Slave Laws of the 1850s made it impossible to remain in Northern states.
And Delaware very much was a slave state.
So, what was the proper antebellum interpretation of the 7th Amendment, territories clause, citizenship clauses, the First Amendment, etc? Or are we simply assuming the slavers were right in every case? What would be the reason for such an unexamined assumption?
Why the heck would I try and speculate about the jurisprudence of cases either never argued or long ago forgotten? That’s pettifogging, not history.
Historically, seems like the slavers got along fine in our constitutional system for a long time. So your point that the Constitution didn’t really have room for slavery is disproven by practice and experience.
"your point that the Constitution didn't really have room for slavery"
I acknowledged the Constitution's compromises with slavery, while noting the clash between the ambitions of the slavers and other constituitonal provisions.
Is this too nuanced and polysyllabic for you?
The slavers got a partial count of slaves for purposes of representation, and a fugitives-from-service clause. But they were greedy and wanted more.
They wanted to crush the First Amendment - stopping the postal circulation of abolitionist literature, and blocking antislavery petitions. On the latter issue, the successful struggle of John Quincy Adams for the right of petition was a glorious episode in the history of freedom, and dismissing it as pettifogging is historically illiterate.
They denied citizenship to the free descendants of slaves and asserted a constitutional right to carry slaves into federal territories. Justice Curtis, though a "doughface," showed why this was BS. If this was pettifogging, so was every Supreme Court dissent in favor of human freedom.
Writs of personal replevin (de homine replegiando) were common-law writs, tried by juries, concerning the right to physical custody of a human being. The slavers simply ignored the 7th Amendment's command that such cases at common law be tried by jury, providing for alleged fugitives to be tried without a jury. When the feds didn't recognize the writ and the 7th Amendment, many Northern states stepped into the breach.
The slavers even denied a *judicial* trial to alleged fugitives, much less a jury trial. To top it off they denied the alleged fugitive the right of habeas corpus. Is habeas corpus a pettifogging concern, too?
There seems to be a community of interest between the slavers of old and the living-constitutionalists of today to portray the antebellum Constitution as a fully proslavery document. After all, the Supreme Court said it was, and how could the Supreme Court be wrong?
This is just presentism on it's head. You are acknowledging something that was not in evidence before the Civil War, and only appears based on contemporary understandings of personhood, etc.
Read your Frederick Douglass. Read your MLK.
You have *got* to be kidding me. You seem belligerently ignorant of the constitutional debates of that era.
The antislavery people of the time (other than the misguided Garrisonians) denounced the slavers for their attacks on the Constitution, while the proslavery people and doughfaces were willing to twist the Constitution in knots to accommodate slavery.
I’m not going to guide you through the multitude of sources – you can take a horse to water, but you can’t make it think. But I’ll mention a source you may already have heard of – the Lincoln/Douglas debates.
Today’s living constitutionalists try to discredit the antebellum Constitution by joining up with the slavers and endorsing the slavers’ interpretation of the Constitution.
One more time for all you bozos who cut class the day they taught history.
The original constitution was written the way it was so all the states that signed it would. If it had contained strict prohibition of slavery the slave states would have never of signed it and the "United States" would not only have been much smaller in size but lacked the economic punch the slave states provided.
This was always akin to a deal with the devil and anyone with an IQ above room temperature could see it would not have a happy ending.
You seem angry, ragebot, are you arguing with someone in your head whom you find aggravating?
"and anyone with an IQ above room temperature could see it would not have a happy ending."
On the contrary, a great many very bright people thought that slavery was inevitably declining, and that by kicking the can down the road they could deal with it better when it was a weaker force. And they were generally right until the invention of the cotton gin reinvigorated Southern slavery. Slavery did continue on a downward trajectory where King Cotton didn't reign.
Anyone that argues that the constitution should have been explicitly anti-slavery is arguing that we should have just gone ahead and had the Civil War in 1789, when the balance of power was clearly on the southern side, and the level of resolve on the northern side was a fraction of what it was 70 years later. And of course the UK lurking looking for an opportunity to reassert control of both sides.
As it was the US banned importing slaves before the UK banned the slave trade in 1807, and while the British did abolish slavery 30 years before the Emancipation Proclamation, it's still wasn't until 1833, 40 years after the constitution was written.
"Anyone that argues that the constitution should have been explicitly anti-slavery"
And who are *you* arguing with?
Just a cautionary note to Somin, and any others enthralled with Douglass, now that he is safely within the Overton window for socially acceptable praise. It was not always thus.
In the 1950s, when I began grade school in Maryland, at a school less than 60 miles downriver from Harpers Ferry, there were no adults to be found who had a charitable word for John Brown. Changing national norms were in process to coerce from those adults, including my teachers, at least grudging support for anti-slavery; that plainly did not extend to endorsement of Brown.
Brown was roundly condemned as a fanatic. A lunatic, who got what he had coming to him. If a confused student asked a teacher whether Brown's anti-slavery earned moral justification, the question got rejected without hesitation. I saw that question asked several times over my early school years. I never saw an answer delivered without a show of barely restrained hostility for the question itself, and by implication, facial expression, and body language, for the student asking the question.
It was a question which provoked outrage. Young students had to struggle to understand that anti-slavery might take a place of merely formal honor, but it was not meant to earn a place in the day-to-day reckoning of that time and place.
To this day, I do not hear praise for Brown at all comparable to the paeans for Douglass. In fact, I hear almost nothing about Brown. I wonder how many of those quick now to praise Frederick Douglass would still hesitate to endorse John Brown likewise, and on what basis they would hesitate. Is a hanged man's burning commitment that much less worthy of praise than a talented man's expressive gift?
One reason to ask is that it is a question Frederick Douglass himself must have asked, and with unusually good reason. Frederick Douglass endorsed John Brown. Frederick Douglass entertained John Brown in his home in upstate New York. There, Douglass and Brown collaborated to plan Brown's upcoming Harper's Ferry raid. Douglass went to Maryland. Douglass remained on the Maryland side of the river, in sight of Harpers Ferry, while the raid occurred. In what capacity of intended support no one has reported.
After the raid failed, Douglass fled north to his home, arriving only a few hours ahead of the law, in time to clean up evidence of his involvement, and then to flee to Canada, and later to England.
For some reason it troubles me to see the idealistic side of Douglass paraded at length, without much mention to show the experience in which that idealism was rooted. It is not any failure on Douglass' part to mention that experience which accounts for it.
I seem to recall that Douglass claimed to have rejected Brown’s plan as impractical, that is, not likely to hurt slavery. So Douglass allegedly held aloof from it, despite Brown’s appeals.
I thought the reason Douglass fled the country after Brown’s raid was that he thought the proslavery crowd would be willing to sacrifice an innocent black man.
https://www.biography.com/activists/john-brown-frederick-douglass-friendship
Douglas had no objection to *effective* violence against slavery, e. g., resisting slave-catchers and of course the Civil War. But he thought Brown would fail at the expense of a senseless effusion of blood. At least if we believe Douglass’ account.
It was only afterward that Douglass praised the raid, not as a practical thing in itself, but as a situation-clarifier for the country.
Correct. He expressly said that Virginia couldn't prove his involvement — because he wasn't involved — but they could prove that he was Frederick Douglass and that he knew John Brown, and that would be enough to see him hanged by that state.
I'm not sure where you're getting this from, but it's almost entirely fictional. Douglass did not "remain on the Maryland side of the river, in sight of Harper's Ferry." Douglass was in Pennsylvania.
Douglass was certainly aware of the raid, but he in no way "collaborated to plan" it; in fact, he opposed it. He thought it was suicide that would set back the cause of abolition.
Nieporent, perhaps you are right. But I did not make that up. There is a source for it, which I read years ago, but have not found now after a brief search attempt online.
That source contained specific allegations, including that Brown, staying as a guest in Douglass’ home in Rochester showed Douglass a map or diagram depicting Harpers Ferry and the surrounding countryside. It said that document had been left in the Douglass home while the raid was carried out. It is the source which reported Douglass was in Maryland at the time of the raid.
Note that does not exclude that Douglass also met Brown in Pennsylvania, which I think is not in dispute. It does not exclude information that is undoubtedly true that Douglass was in Philadelphia immediately after the raid, where he received warning from a telegraph operator that federal officers were on the way to arrest Douglass. The name of that telegraph operator is known.
The best corroboration would of course be something from Douglass, and I am sorry I cannot now find such a source. So I will take under advisement that I may have seen a bad source years ago, and fell for it. At present I cannot prove what I wrote is true. I am not as confident as you are that it is entirely fictional.
Brown certainly visited Douglass at Douglass's home and tried to convince him to join the raid. The two parties' later reports differ on what happened there: Douglass wrote that he dismissed the raid as doomed to fail, but Brown thought that Douglass reneged on some sort of promise or duty, even though Douglass did pass along letters and money to support Brown's raid.
Nieporent, I should have mentioned also that accounts exist, and are widely accepted on the basis of Douglass’ own post-raid accounts, which depict Douglass as unsupportive of Brown, as you have described. In the presence of an apparently well-sourced account to the contrary, I would take those as potentially self-exculpatory and equivocal. In the absence of a reliable-looking contrary account, you are right to credit Douglass.
What do you think we should think or hear about John Brown today? That he was heroic because the ends justify the means?
Is there some requirement to be gentle when shucking off your oppressors? These weren't trivial slights.
I would save the higher levels of respect for people who were either law-abiding or particularly effective in their righteously illegal acts.
He's no hero, but he's also not a slam-dunk villain. Slavery was as violent and monstrous as his acts. And his acts were not unconnected to the ending of slavery.
That's why he remains a figure of fascination in history.
In my book, calling John Brown a villain is thoroughly unjustified. He was an extremist for a good cause, and most of his works helped cure this country of one of its greatest evils (the notable competition for that distinction being how we treated native Americans). But his raid was ill-considered and arguably counterproductive. That's why I think he gets, and deserves, less emphasis and praise than Frederick Douglass.
Gold star day; you and I agree on something.
John Brown is an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is being recognized more and more, I notice.
"I wonder how many of those quick now to praise Frederick Douglass would still hesitate to endorse John Brown likewise, and on what basis they would hesitate."
It's pretty simple - I prefer that people settle their political differences with words rather than violence.
I would not have admired the Suffragettes more if they had instituted a bombing campaign. I would not despise the Weathermen and Eric Rudolph if they used picket signs, even though I disagree with both politically.
I guess to some slavery was a mere political difference. Others might have seen it differently. Seems to me, if you're having a civilised discussion about the merits and drawbacks of slavery with slavers and slave-owners, you've already lost, becasue while you're exchanging words, massive ongoing violence is being freely and openly perpetrated by the people you're chatting with. You're not settling anything without violence in those circumstances. The violence is occurring. Now, obviously, it would be better if, using words alone, you succesfully persuaded them to end their violence without escalating. But in this case, none of this is happening without violence.
FIFY
"I guess to some ABORTION was a mere political difference. Others might have seen it differently. Seems to me, if you’re having a civilised discussion about the merits and drawbacks of ABORTION with ABORTIONISTS, you’ve already lost, because while you’re exchanging words, massive ongoing violence is being freely and openly perpetrated by the people you’re chatting with. You’re not settling anything without violence in those circumstances. The violence is occurring. Now, obviously, it would be better if, using words alone, you successfully persuaded them to end their violence without escalating. But in this case, none of this is happening without violence."
Frank "Against Slavery AND Abortion"
Frank 'Racist Mysogynist Idiots Against Slavery AND Abortion' Drackman
Ha! you spelled "Mysogynist" wrong, it's "Mis-Ogyn-ist" and you probably have your College Degree all framed and on your "I love me Wall"
and I'm the one who gets his balls busted for grammatical errors??
and it's "Race-ist", OK, I know it's not, but it's the ways you Poltroons (google that Shit) pronounce it, so I spell it that way.
So you support the killing of 50+ million Black Babies?? OK, some people like Mayonnaise,
Frank "Against Abortion and Mayonnaise"
A racist misogynist who sees black women as breeding stock? Spelling and grammar are the least of your faults, though your posts have to be deciphered rather than read.
The constitution and laws of the United States in effect at the time prohibited what he did. And would you have it otherwise? Do you want statutes of people who firebombed abortion clinics being erected in the public squares of Red states? Do you want schoolchidren to be taught their praises?
A sovereign state can’t honor people who engaged in violent rebellions against it too much, even if people later decide what rhey did was morally justified.
Abortion today is exactly like Slavery in 1830, a group of Human Beings, not considered to be Human Beings because of a physical characteristic ("Not Being Born Yet is the new Black"!!!) The real Race-ists among us love Abortion as it's resulted in some 60 million fewer Black Peoples being born over the last 50 years (depending on numbers you use for Black Fertility Rate, Life Expectancy, and for just how many abortions are committed every year, WNBA stats are easier to find)
Frank "Against abortion of babies of any color"
Well Brown was a lunatic, and Douglas was quite right not to embrace him.
John Brown was responsible for and participated in the Pottawatomie Massacre in Kansas, before the Harper’s ferry incident.
Where in retaliation for The Sack of Lawrenceville (which while hardly defensible but where the only death was one pro-slavery participant who died when the Free State Hotel was torched.)
“The three men were escorted by their captors out into the darkness, where Owen Brown and his brother Frederick killed them with broadswords. John Brown Sr. did not participate in the stabbing but fired a shot into the head of the fallen James Doyle to ensure he was dead.
“Brown and his band then went to the house of Allen Wilkinson and ordered him out. He was slashed and stabbed to death by Henry Thompson and Theodore Wiener, possibly with help from Brown’s sons….” And on to the next house where “William Sherman… was led to the edge of the creek and hacked to death with swords by Wiener, Thompson, and Brown’s sons.”
Taking men out of their homes at night and hacking them to death within earshot of their families puts Brown beyond any possibility of redemption for being on the right side.
"Well Brown was a lunatic,"
I am no expert in this area but my understanding is that John Brown did have mental health issues aside from any political positions he had.
Has the Charles Manson eyes, (who didn't kill anyone either)
Recently, the Border Patrol caught an Ecuadorian national attempting to enter the country who had previously been deported after serving a 12-year sentence for the aggravated sodomy and rape of a child. Does our country have the right to keep him out? Somin would say "no". (Of course, Somin would say he should never have been deported in the first place). In FY 2021, 488 convicted sex offenders were caught attempting to enter the country, 38 alone in the Del Rio sector since October of last year. Somin would say, "Let 'em all in."
Somin had passionately defended the right to exclude - when it comes to businesses - as when he denounced the Florida law allowing employees to keep a locked firearm in their vehicles at work as an unconstitutional "taking". He equates even the most modest of immigration restrictions with racism, but would defend explicitly racist exclusion of others as a sacred right in the context of business owners. He has all but endorsed the legal theory, advanced by the defendants and rejected by the Supreme Court in Heart of Atlanta Motel, Inc. v. United States, that forcing them to serve black customers was an unconstitutional "taking".
He has frequently advanced his fringe legal theory that the Constitution does not allow the federal government to regulate immigration, though he is vague about who then can regulate immigration. Obviously, if not the federal government, then the only possible answer is either "the states" or "no one". One suspects he favors the latter answer.
The concept of national sovereignty would be meaningless without the right to exclude others, just as the concept of private property (of which Somin is a fierce defender) would be meaningless without the right to exclude. It would hardly be "your" home if you had no legal right to keep anyone from entering it without your permission.
F.D. Wolf, actually the founders' concept of national sovereignty was developed during an era of open-borders immigration. Nobody at the time seemed confused about the difference between a nation and a private home. They seem to have regarded immigration more as a bulwark to the new nation's sovereignty than as an impediment to it, while simultaneously seeking to keep themselves secure in private homes.
Are you a fan of the history and tradition arguments from Bruen and Dobbs? If so, do you suppose it would make sense to tailor history and tradition time lines separately, to suit outcomes desired on various issues, case by case?
Even with restrictions, America (so far) remains a preferred destination for many immigrants, so with all this demand we can afford to be selective about which of these we let in. We'll still get net in-migration more than balancing out the out-migration.
Emmerich de Vattel wrote about immigration in his influential 18th Century treatise on the law of nations (for those who care about such things, it was nearly contemporaneous with the founding). I looked up the reference some time back, and going by memory Vattel affirmed the power of nations to exclude immigrants while deploring those countries which barred foreigners altogether (at the time that would be Japan and Korea). So Vattel may be placed roughly in the open borders camp while he acknowledged that countries need not have open borders. Much of Vattel's analysis was about the rights and duties of aliens after a country had *chosen* to admit them.
That Congress chose not restrict immigration does not mean it believed it did not have the power to do so. Those are policy questions, not constitutional ones. The ideal immigration policy, as determined by the people's elected officials. of one day may not be the same ideal immigration policies 10, 50, or 100 years into the future.
Brett Bellmore mentioned the Migration or Importation Clause:
Obviously, "importation" refers to slavery, but "migration" does not, implying voluntariness. (I suppose, it could be argued it applied only to volunteers for indentured servitude, but that is a thin argument). I believe the most natural reading of this clause is that Congress could not restrict immigration until 1808, but afterward would have plenary power to do so. (James Wilson. the second most influential delegate at the constitutional convention after Madison, believed this clause also gave Congress the power to restrict or even ban slavery after 1808).
When one delegate at the Pennsylvania ratifying convention objected that the part of the Clause allowing a ten dollar per head tax would discourage immigrants, Wilson responded that the tax was clearly explicitly limited to "such Importation" and not applicable to immigrants. He did not respond that the Clause had nothing to do with immigration. One of the Kentucky Resolutions of 1798 (secretly authored by Thomas Jefferson) objected to the Alien Enemies Act of 1798, which allowed the President to remove "alien enemies", was unconstitutional as a restriction on immigration before 1808. (Jefferson perhaps being a bit loose with his strict constructionist principles, implying that deportation is part and parcel of "migration" laws).
So, yes, for obvious reasons, the Founders wanted to encourage immigration to the fledgling nation, but explicitly did not set that as policy forevermore.
"Obviously, if not the federal government, then the only possible answer is either “the states” or “no one”. One suspects he favors the latter answer."
The 10th amendment makes that answer absolutely unambiguous. If control of immigration really wasn't a power of the federal government, one can easily observe that absolutely nothing in the Constitution prohibits it to the states, and so it is a power of states.
But, of course, it's impossible to make sense of Article 1, Section 9, clause 1, "The Migration or Importation of such Persons as any of the States now existing shall think proper to admit, shall not be prohibited by the Congress prior to the Year one thousand eight hundred and eight..." if Congress didn't otherwise have that power, and would be entitled to exercise it AFTER 1808.
The attempt is made to pretend this applied only to the slave trade, but slaves do not "migrate".
Honestly, while Somin is capable of doing great work otherwise, on the topic of immigration he's one with the gold fringe loons, his views are so extreme and unjustified.
“if Congress didn’t otherwise have that power, and would be entitled to exercise it AFTER 1808…..The attempt is made to pretend this applied only to the slave trade, but slaves do not “migrate”.”
Congress only has enumerated powers, among which is interstate and foreign commerce. At the time, slave trading would definitely be considered commerce. What Art I, Section 9, Clause 1 meant is that Congress could not use its interstate commerce power to stop the slave trade prior to 1808.
That is reinforced by the phrase after your ellipsis: “but a Tax or duty may be imposed on such Importation, not exceeding ten dollars for each Person.”
I’d say a good case can be made that Congress only has the power to ban migration to the extent that it is commerce. And I take the libertarian view that commerce does not mean “any activity”, it means buying and selling or activities directly connected to buying and selling.
"But, of course, it’s impossible to make sense of Article 1, Section 9, clause 1, . . . if Congress didn’t otherwise have that power, and would be entitled to exercise it AFTER 1808."
Until you realize that an express Constitutional prohibition on doing something, is not an acknowledgement that such power would pertain in the absence of the prohibition.
Very simple really.
"Until you realize that an express Constitutional prohibition on doing something, is not an acknowledgement that such power would pertain in the absence of the prohibition."
Right, they routinely included clauses in the Constitution saying Congress couldn't do something until a particular date that it had no power to do in the first place. [/sarc]
F.D. Wolf claimed:
"Does our country have the right to keep him out? Somin would say “no”. "
Do you have even the slightest foundation for this claim, or are you just full of shit? I would also like to see where Prof. Somin claimed the constitution does not allow the federal government to restrict immigration.
Well, since you asked so nicely.
If the federal government has no legal authority to restrict immigration, then it cannot keep him out. If you can't understand that sentence, then I'm sorry, but I don't know how to dumb it down any further for you.
You must be new here if you are unaware of Somin's views on immigration.
Ilya Somin, "Does the Constitution Give the Federal Government Power Over Immigration?" https://www.cato-unbound.org/2018/09/12/ilya-somin/does-constitution-give-federal-government-power-over-immigration/
He has repeated the idea elsewhere, including on this site many, many times, as a Google search or search of this site would demonstrate. But thanks for the question. I was happy to help.
Claiming that Congress has no power to regulate leads to an absurd result. Whether it's the commerce clause, "migration", or the necessary and proper clause, the power must exist somewhere.
Otherwise it would lead to the both absurd and inhumane result of Congress not only being able to, but actually has, putting strict quotas on work permits, green cards, and regulations for naturalization, but having absolutely no control over the number of immigrants coming into the country.
Congress could put a 30 year residency requirement for a work permit, 50 years for naturalization and SS and Medicare eligibility, but can't limit the number of immigrants? That's absurd.
"This approach poses a challenge to many on the left who reject textualism and originalism in part because they believe these methodologies inevitably lead to racist results."
I think it's more a matter rejecting textualism and originalism because those methodologies don't inevitably lead to 'progressive' results. Then they need a pretext for the rejection that potentially might persuade those who don't think 'progressivism' trumps the rule of law.
It is, as always, impossible to disagree with Brett in good faith.
What's wrong with you?
Nothing is wrong with me except going through life without blinders that conveniently keep me from seeing things the left doesn't want to admit.
The left were attacking the Constitution for decades before they seized on the excuse of it being 'racist', so if there's causality present, it's the attack leading to calling it racist, not the other way around.
In fact, the only reason originalism exists as a distinct doctrine is because of the left's attacks on the Constitution; Nobody needed originalism until living constitutionalism reared its head; Before that it was just "reading".
Disagreeing with your personal take is not attacking the Constitution.
What a tower of pridefullness you are.
I've read his comments several times and am really struggling with your statement.
Can you show, using quotes of his words, where he's saying what you say he's saying?
Birther Brett Bellmore is an open book -- shelved under "antisocial, autistic, disaffected, defeated, embittered, intolerance, delusional, obsolete, grievance- and conspiracy-addled."
You left out "Klinger" (and "Bitter" although I'll give you 1/2 credit for "embittered") Run 10 "Suicides"!!!!!!!!!!
No, Snowflakes, I'm not telling Jerry S. to kill himself, it's a Sports term.
It's what I loved about Baseball, only "Suicide" drill was smoking a Cig in the bullpen,
Frank
As I said, Brett, you find it impossible for anyone to disagree with you in good faith.
Your latest comment just confirms it.
So actually President Trumps widely ridiculed remark
"Frederick Douglass is an example of somebody who’s done an amazing job and is being recognized more and more, I notice."
Is exactly on the mark, remind me what was so funny about what he said?? And for the retards among you, I do have a devastating counter comment at the ready (several, actually) so try not to embarrass your self(s)
Frank
If he'd added 'And in conclusion Frederick Douglass is a land of contrasts' nobody would have been surprised.
According to Senescent Joe, Frederick Douglas "wasn't Black".
Is that the devastating counter-comment you were saving up? It's just a variation of the same stuff you say all the time, in response to anything.
Nah, that was an off the cuff, which is even funnier, because Senescent Joe (just checked Drudge, State of the Onion is now scheduled for 4pm Eastern (time for Senescent J to make the Early Bird Special) said
“I tell you if you have a problem figuring out whether you’re for me or Trump, then you ain’t black,”
Well, Frederick Douglass didn't vote for Senescent Joe, (Ironically, first Vote Frederick Douglass cast was for Repubiclown U.S. Grant)
Frank
Still not exactly homing in on a devastating counter-comment, just laboriously over-explaining your alleged jokes.
You're Barry Bonds standing there with his (Corked) bat on his (Performance Enhanced) Shoulders.
I like Barry Bonds actually, fellow Lefty, and not like he was the only player taking a snort of the Dianabol in the 90's.
And He is also one of only four baseball players all-time to be in the 40–40 club (1996), which means he hit 40 home runs (42) and stole 40 bases (40) in the same season; the other members are José Canseco, Alex Rodriguez, and Alfonso Soriano.
Hmm, Canseco, A-Rod, Soriano, trying to remember what they had in common???
Frank "Naturally unfit"
You're just dissolving into incoherence now. Those devastating counter-comments sounded better in your head, obvs.
Frederick Douglass for President
We’d be quite a bit better off if a dead guy had been president for the last six years, so I think this is a movement I can support.
Senescent J's 1/2 way there, only thing keeping him from being Brain dead are his brainstem reflexes.
“Douglass was one of the first to realize that immigration restrictions have much in common with racial discrimination.” Except back in Douglass’ day there were not drug cartels smuggling fentanyl, Iranian terrorists trying to blow us up, and free healthcare and welfare eating up taxpayer coffers and filling up emergency rooms. Also the government was giving away land to homesteaders (at the expense of Native Americans) and the labor market was extremely tight – so it was easy to find a job, or a plot of land (hard to work it and keep it of course).
Not every argument against immigration is about racism.
We just don’t live in a world where we can naively let everyone in. The irony is that most countries lean to the left of the US and have *much* tighter immigration restrictions (go ahead, try to move to Canada, lol).
Also ironic that the leftists who run the cities like Chicago - who could use a substantial increase in taxpayer base because of the exodus - dont want immigrants when they are bussed there. Stop the madness of Texas and Florida sending us illegals! The hotels and hospitals are filled!
The irony is that most countries lean to the left of the US and have *much* tighter immigration restrictions
So much for the clingers’ devotion to “American exceptionalism.”
Our nation has experienced successive waves of ignorance and intolerance throughout its history, regularly related to ethnicity, religion, skin color, immigration, or perceived economic pressures. Those targeted by our lesser elements have included the Irish, Jews, Blacks, Asians, Catholics, gays, Italians, Muslims, women, Hispanics, agnostics, eastern Europeans, atheists, other Asians, Baptists, other Hispanics . . . most of America, at one time or another.
The beauty of America is that our bigots do not win, not over time. Better Americans have prevailed, every time, against those who vilified gays and Jews, oppressed women and agnostics, or tried to keep out Blacks and Catholics, Italians and Irish, Hispanics and Muslims.
Our most recent batch of bigots seems nothing special, its reliance on the charms, insights, and integrity of the Republican Party, the Heritage Foundation, the Federalist Society, and Donald J. Trump notwithstanding.
Better Americans will continue to prevail at the modern American marketplace of ideas, against the wishes and efforts of conservatives in general and Republican immigrant-haters (including most of the Volokh Conspirators) in particular.
You Preach it Jerry!!!! Only 1 "Klinger" and we get the Irony of a Bigot insulting Bigots.
and how's the food at https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx????
Frank
This is the defender, fan, and commenter the Volokh Conspirators want, flatter, and deserve.
Thanks! (man)
When asked, what % of Americans support open borders and illegal immigration?
Roughly three-quarters of Americans indicate they believe immigration is good for our country.
Poorly educated, rural, economically inadequate, roundly bigoted, disaffected Americans tend to disagree with the mainstream position.
I didn't ask about immigration. I asked about illegal immigration.
What do Americans say about illegal immigration?
¡Inmigración ilegal no, inmigración legal sí!
You know how to find a really good Taqueria?
The one where you can yell "Every Wetback should go back to May-He-Co!!!!!!!" and they just smile politely at the Crazy Gringo
OK, probably don't yell that, but the one where you have to point at the menu and speak loudly and slowly in English, because they'll understand you better,
Frank "Grassy-Ass!!!!"
Hey, BCD, do you favor easiest way to cut the number of illegal immigrants in the country by about 90%?
Hand a visa to anyone who hasn't been arrested and isn't on public assistance. Then they're legal and you'll of course be permanently and totally satisfied.
You could also end bank robbery by handing out cash to anyone who asked for it, but it might be subject to similar problems of supply.
Problems of supply? We’ll run out of what, exactly?
I concede there would be an initial spike before we reached equilibrium, and that the equilibrium point is probably outside your comfort zone. But it certainly wouldn’t be infinite.
Note that there is free immigration between states in the US. If we hadn’t had it, and someone proposed it today, no doubt there would be people predicting all kinds of doomsday scenarios.
Forgot to add: not only does the US have open borders internally, it doesn't even have the proposed restriction of not having been arrested or gone on public assistance.
"I concede there would be an initial spike before we reached equilibrium, and that the equilibrium point is probably outside your comfort zone. But it certainly wouldn’t be infinite."
No, with only 8-10 billion people on Earth, it obviously can't be "infinite", just high enough that the US becomes a much less pleasant place to live for the people who'd lived here when the borders were thrown open.
Considering how awful some places on Earth are, the US could get a lot worse and still be attractive to SOMEBODY.
In the bank scenario, robbery is prevented at the expense of the actual depositors losing their shirts. You obviously don't mind ruining things for existing stakeholders if it benefits somebody, somewhere.
As I've observed before when Ilya went off on one of his open borders rants, while the Constitution didn't enact Spencer's Social Statistics, neither did it enact Rawls A Theory of Justice.
That 90% number is pretty generous given those stipulations.
Would you care to give an estimate?
Note: my definition of "on public assistance" is the same one we'd apply to a US citizen. It doesn't include things like driving on public streets, benefiting from police and fire departments, etc.
Alot of "Klingers" in the "three-quarters" number that you totally pulled out of three-quarters of your ass.
What the hell are you talking about? Canada has much looser immigration restrictions than the U.S. Canada lets in about three times as many immigrants per capita as the U.S. does.
Prior to the 14th Amendment, the Constitution permitted slavery. And while I think Dred Scott was wrongly decided, was indeed the archetype of illegitimate judge-made constitutional rights, and there was never any constitutional right to own a slave, nonetheless the limited powers of the federal government meant it could at most ban slavery in federal territory, foreign importation of slaves, and “interstate commerce” in the narrow sense of transporting slaves between states and similar activities, and only if Congress passed a statute saying so. Beyond that, absent the constitutional amendment that became effective after the Civil War, it was up to each state to decide whether or not to have it.
Like abortion today. Abortion after Roe, as slavery was before Dred Scott, is a matter for each governmental jurisdiction to decide. The concept of “interstate conmmerce” has greatly expanded, and Congress today is regarded as having considerably more power and say in such matters than it was in the 19th Century. Nonetheless matters remain roughly similar.
And those who think abortion today permissable, indeed a moral good, indeed sometuing that ought to be a right, might want to look back at the national controversy over slavery and perhaps not heap too much praise you on people who attempted to end slavery by violence, at least not if they don’t want people who attempt to end abortion by violence to be too encouraged by their example. If we praise bypassing the political process by recourse to violence too highly when it happens to work in our favor, attempting to dissuade those who oppose us from having recourse to violence becomes that much more hypocritically difficult.
'perhaps not heap too much praise you on people who attempted to end slavery by violence,'
People's attitudes to the men who fought for the North really are amazingly ambiguous. They're only held up as a shining example when people want to tell black folks they're ungrateful.
Yeah, Sherman's not really remembered fondly where I come from.
Lesson learned, I hope.
Ouch! yes, no States have succeeded since 1860
This comment, like my comment above, was directed at people like John Brown and has nothing to so with Union soldiers, who represented constitutional authority and acted lawfully. Union soldiers aren’t an analog to people firebombing abortion clinics on their own initiative. John Brown arguably was.
So it's okay to praise some people who attempted to end slavery by violence then, okay, hope would-be anti-abortion terrorists don't take too much encouragement from that.
.
You’re talking bullshit. You’re saying you think any support for any kind of law and order “favors violence” because police (and soldiers) also use violence. You’re saying that means it’s hypocritical for a state (or me) to regard the lawful use of force by its lawful representatives charged with enforcing its laws against those who break them as being any different from criminals and terrorists. What a cockamamie position!
I'm not saying any of that, perhaps my point would be better understood if I point out that the US is a country founded on 'unlawful' violence, so if anti-abortion activists need inspiration for 'unlawful' violence in the pursuit of their cause, they're not waiting to hear someone say something nice about John Brown.
People’s attitudes to the men who fought for the North really are amazingly ambiguous.
Care to identify the "People" in that sentence? Where I come from, a Northern state, there is no ambiguity about it -- they are viewed as war heroes.
Specifcally the guy who reprimanded Douglass for being ungrateful on their account and then went on to denounce them as rapists.
"And while I think Dred Scott was wrongly decided, "
Way to go out on a limb there
Frank
Says the guy who causally lets it drop that he thinks black people are too stupid to know Booker T. Washington was, and that he thinks the Confeserates were right.
Booker T. Washington is better.
Come visit Frederick Douglass Circle, in Harlem at the NW corner of Central Park! It has a sculpture, a pedestal, a fountain, and Douglass quotes all around.
Not agreed, at least without an exception to prevent cultures that are willing to use extralegal force to destroy multiculturalism and establish their own Inquisitions, thus destroying all freedom to be different from themselves. Democratic control cannot legitimately extend so far as to allow that behavior.