The Volokh Conspiracy
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Vat-Grown Meat and Ideology
[UPDATED with more from Virginia Postrel.]
I love to eat meat. I don't believe meat is murder (or chicken is manslaughter, or eggs are kidnapping, or milk is sexual harassment). But just because I don't object to people killing animals for food doesn't mean that I affirmatively demand it. If people can develop delicious, safe, low-cost vat-grown meat, presumably grown from actually animal cells, that would be excellent. Indeed, it may well help generate tastes and textures that are hard to obtain through normal animal growth. It may reduce food-borne diseases. And it may have lower environmental burdens; regardless of whether one thinks we need to sacrifice to reduce such environmental burdens, in principle it may be possible to get better taste, lower financial costs, and lower environmental burdens as well. What's not to like about that?
Again, that's if all is done right, and many initial attempts will be failures. But that's how so many excellent products were developed. Many companies engage in many experiments; the unappealing ones fail, the appealing ones succeed, and the next generation of products is improved. Vat-grown meat, like many technological developments, is likely to improve markedly over time, and become less costly (as it already apparently has); hoof-grown meat isn't.
Is there a risk that such developments, though at first just offered voluntarily to consumers, will lead to government coercion (such as a ban on traditional cultivation of meat) even when the vat-grown product remains inferior to the traditional product? Yes, there is such a risk (cf. my article on slippery slopes); indeed, as Virginia Postrel notes,
Barring a new backlash, the long-term trajectory seems certain. Within a generation, vat-grown meat may be not merely common but normal. Within two, it could be morally imperative. Economics and technology can transform ethical expectations and practices.
But that strikes me as a poor reason to resist development of products that could end up being so valuable. It would have been unwise to fight central gas heating on the theory that it might eventually lead to bans on burning wood in fireplaces, or to fight the automobile on the theory that it might lead to limits on where one can ride one's horse or horse-drawn carriage. Likewise here.
Unsurprisingly, I agree on this with Postrel, which is why I was troubled (but not surprised) by her recent newsletter item on how some people reacted to her article praising vat-grown meat. Here's an excerpt:
The reaction to my WSJ article on cultivated meat has been fascinating and disturbing.
Some people in the business have lectured me not to use the terms synthetic, as in "synthetic biology," or lab-grown, lest I scare off customers. (Technically, meat is only lab-grown in the research stage, since scaling up requires something more like a brewery.) They are, in other words, squeamish about acknowledging the artifice involved in their own products—exactly what interests me!
Then there's the knee-jerk right-wing reaction, represented by the comments on the WSJ site…. [My article was] a story about market-driven progress! Abundance is good!! The anti-Promethean backlash is bad! "Cruelty-free" is tendentious and the Center for Food Safety is the bad guy. Those are all right-of-center tells.
Or they used to be. I was naively stuck in the 20th century.
Back then, when I hung out with ideologues more than I do today, people on the American right liked technological innovation and market competition. They celebrated ingenuity and entrepreneurship. They might predict that a given product would fail or choose not to buy it—that's the system, after all—but they weren't affronted by the mere existence of for-profit approaches to social or environmental issues. They weren't insulted by the idea that technology might alter attitudes by changing costs.
Now, everything is personal and I, who write as a meat eater who likes human ingenuity and technological progress, am read as a woke propagandist.
Quite unfortunate, I think. At the same time, I also think Prof. Glenn Reynolds (InstaPundit) has a likewise sensible reaction:
I too am a meat eater who likes human ingenuity and technological progress. But I can see a couple of problems. One is that "synthetic meat" is a confusing term. It means real meat, grown in a vat instead of in a cow, but it sounds like it might be the non-nutritious "Beyond Meat/Impossible" slop marketed to vegans.
Second, the technocracy is pushing this stuff, and the technocracy is currently in bad odor. There's a real lack of trust, and once people start to think that the technocracy will do things to them that they don't like — and often lie about it in the process — the lack of trust spreads from specific subjects to more general matters….
In an ideal world, where we could talk about this sort of thing on its own merits and in a generally good-faith manner — like the world we at least thought we lived in back in the '90s — things would be different. But we don't live in that world now.
UPDATE: Virginia Postrel responds in turn:
I would strongly encourage anyone who is in the #synbio business, esp. in consumer-facing products like cultivated meat, to seriously engage with the fear of coercion. Environmentalists don't have a good track record of respecting the choices of ordinary people who want their toilets to flush and dishwashers to rinse and don't want a compost pile on their kitchen counter. DJT didn't invent these grievances. I experience them regularly in my own home. (Not looking forward to the composting. Not everyone in CA has a backyard, people.)
Get out of your cultural bubbles, where everyone shares your assumptions about food and science and global warming and try to generate excitement about the future in places like Knoxville.
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If the courts end up siding with California over the new pig rules an outright ban on some kinds of meat harvested from animals could follow. You'll have to drive out of state to buy real meat, or go out to dinner with governor Newsom.
So?
I guess you only like democracy when the outcome agrees with you.
If CAians want to ban meat harvested from animals then that's their right.
I do not deny Californians their right to make a mistake. I think the Supreme Court should allow them to regulate pork imports.
I don't think so. Part of giving the federal government authority over interstate commerce was to take that authority away from the states, make sure that states couldn't block imports from other states.
But CA is not blocking imports.
It's merely setting a standard that importers - AND ITS OWN PRODUCERS - must meet.
100% constititional.
Yeah, that's just sophistry. "We're not blocking imports, just blocking the stuff you want to import."
If your interpretation were correct then that would mean states could not ban or regulate anything that is also produced (or even just sold) in another state, which is clearly an incorrect conclusion.
I suppose a state could ban pork, altogether. And could regulate how it is produced in state.
But how pork is produced in other states is purely a matter for those other states' laws, and when the pork hits the California border it's just pork.
They're attempting to regulate conduct happening outside their borders, not inside it, by not letting people engaging in conduct they don't like, outside their own jurisdiction, sell pork inside their state.
". . . sell pork inside their state."
AND THAT'S PERFECTLY LEGAL.
So you would have no objection to a state instituting a ban on products produced in other states in favor of the producers within their own state?
Wasn't that exactly the intent of the commerce clause? To disabuse that tendency?
Except that’s not what’s happening here. CA isn’t banning products produced in another state, they are banning products produced in a certain manner, regardless of where they originated.
That's not to say this doesn't have implications under the dormant commerce clause, its just a lot more complicated than "CA is banning imports."
juris - yes I would have a huge problem with the (the Supreme Court too).
However, that is NOT the case here.
It isn't regulating sale in California, it is regulating production wherever said production occurs. That is extra-territorial. Which I get we Americans think our rights & rules extend over the entire surface of the planet, but that presents a small problem to the legitimacy of governments outside of those bounds. In this case, as goes the nation, so goes California.
It's not regulating production outside of CA, pork producers are free to use whatever methods are legal in the state they are located in to produce pork. The CA regulations only come into play if they want their pork sold in CA, because they regulate what can be sold in that state.
How exactly is that different from an inter-state tariff? The state sets up a barrier to sale from out of state producers in favor of in state producers.
It seems to me that CA can ban sales of noncompliant pork within their state. If a pig farm in Minnesota doesn’t follow CA regulations then that pork can’t be sold at the grocery store in California.
But if you buy online or over the phone from another state to ship to your doorstep, that is interstate commerce and they can’t ban it.
This is one of the few legitimate areas where the Constitution limits state powers.
Whether the pig farm in Minnesota followed California law in Minnesota isn’t a property of the pork, though. It’s behavior on the part of the pig farm. That took place outside California.
It’s no different than if the pig farm didn’t pay California minimum wage.
Legal, but fascist
Brett-
Obviously the properties of a product are generally affected by the “behaviors” at an out of state production site pertaining to the production of that product.
Not all behaviors though. The pork may be unaffected by whether the workers in Minnesota get a 20 minute smoke break, and whether each pig is tucked in at bedtime and has Twinkle Twinkle Little Star sung to them.
Are you saying that the specific CA regulations at issue here are such that they would never make a difference in the pork product, so you could never distinguish between compliant and noncompliant pork just by examining the product?
That’s an interesting angle, but seems like it could be a bit unworkable in some edge cases.
But more fundamentally, if a state has authority to ban or regulate intrastate commercial activity . . . then, why couldn’t they ban the intrastate sale of meat from a pig that was not sung Twinkle Twinkle Little Star each day at bedtime?
We should not bend the Constitution in order to find that every stupid or irrational thing, or even every unfair or immoral thing, is unconstitutional.
But if CA is unable to ban/regulate interstate sales, that will be a major check if not totally defeating exceptionally stupid pig regulations.
No, it's not Constitutional when the USDA has set standards for pork to be consumed by humans. Interstate commerce gets to be regulated by states ONLY when the Federal Govt doesn't.
Remember that what California is doing is requiring pork to be produced by a more expensive process -- while they have a reason for doing so, it still is a more expensive process.
Hence, arguably, California is excluding cheaper (but of equal quality) products from out of state and that is exactly what the ICC was intended to preclude.
Even better, what if the pork comes from Mexico? That is clearly out of bounds for a state to do, no?
This is nonsense.
Could CA ban pork produced in conditions that might make the pork unsafe?
Seems to me that they could, but of course that too would be banning a (superficially) cheaper product.
The problem with California requirements for pork production, is they make animal welfare worse, not better. Requiring more square feet for sows, increases piglet death. Sounds admirable, but in reality sows are only in crates about 4 weeks. At 2.2 litters per year, its just 8 weeks out to 52.
This is nothing but the Disneyfication of farming. Anthropomorphizing animals is just stupid.
Its in a farmers best interests to treat animals well so they produce at maximum.
I mean, that's the Dormant Commerce Clause, but there's no textual basis for it. If they had wanted to taketh authority away from the states, why wouldn't they put that in Article I, Section 10, which is an express list of powers forbidden to the states? Putting it in Article 1, Section 8 suggests that Congress has the affirmative power to prevent states from regulating, but not that the Constitution actually forbids it.
Interesting point.
If growing your own food is a nexus to interstate commerce to such a degree that the Federal government can regulate it, then surely an entire state regulating pork is too.
But that means that the federal government could expressly ban California from this sort of regulation.
Until they do so, California is welcome to make whatever silly-ass regulations about the treatment of pigs that it would like.
I guess I only like democracy when it’s not used to limit my freedom and choices.
What was democratic about these rules promulgated by unelected bureaucrats?
This was a Proposition wasn't it? Passed by the voters of the state.
So we can vote away the choices for other people and that’s ok?
What do you enjoy? Let me know so I can get a petition going as the first step of outlawing it.
BCD was wrong about how this came about, that's all. FWIW I think the CA history of direct democracy is littered with disaster.
I'd love to see a study of the inter-generational costs of Prop 13 which prevented the property tax of existing homeowners from ever being increased, but said nothing about newer homeowners.
I know all the reasons the middle class left/is leaving California, but I wonder if this was yet another. The people who owned homes when it passed in 1978(?) are now in their 80s if not older, I'm wondering about the impact on their children and grandchildren.
I didn't know that. Thanks.
Democracy is a means, not an end. The end is freedom. Representative democracy is the system that has generally produced the highest levels of freedom, but there are outliers, and the restrictions on democracy in our Constitution largely are in furtherance of freedom.
I like freedom. Democracy is the charismatic demagogue decreasing freedom.
Your very statement shows the problem: democracy is inherently good, and therefore anything it does is fine "...you must agree."
Yet it is those who sling power while waggling their fingers that toot this as the highest of all values, to the exclusion of freedom.
You can't have freedom without democracy.
Unless your definition of freedom is the same as anarchy, and good luck with that.
Democracy does not include the right to eliminate other people’s rights and choices unless those choices are harmful to others. You want to eat bugs instead of real steak? Fine with me. But you shouldn’t be allowed to compel me to join you.
Article V of the US Constitution disagrees with you.
I'm not sure how you think the Article about how to amend the Constitution supports your point (or disagrees with bevis').
Then you can sit on Article V and rotate. You want to boss people around because of your own political bullshit go be a dictator somewhere. Leave me and mine alone.
It literally does, hence the price being eternal vigilance, remember? Make your argument for why this this choice ought to be retained, stop whining about something that happens nearly every time a law is passed.
"You can’t have freedom without democracy."
18th century England says hello.
Of course I only like democracy when the outcome agrees with me. So should you. "Democracy" is not the goal - liberty is. Democracy is merely a means to the goal. When, as in the example above, democracy results in a loss of liberty then none of us should like the result.
"You’ll have to drive out of state to buy real meat . . . "
I think you spelled 'move out of state' wrong.
In reference to the California fascist:
https://babylonbee.com/news/gavin-newsom-caught-at-french-laundry-eating-eggs-cooked-on-gas-stove
Electric stoves actually are superior — outside of brownouts, the voltage is precisely regulated and that corresponds directly to temperature setting. Gas pressures, which also correspond directly to temperature settings aren’t as precise (they can drop) and then actual temperature can also be affected by the air being consumed, particularly the humidity.
The “gas is better” comes from the era of wood/coal stoves a century or more ago, and yes, gas was considerably hotter.
An unvented gas stove also produces pollutants which I prefer not to breathe, which is why I *chose* an electric stove.
But it should be choice.
Horses? Dogs? Cats?
I recall when Congress banned horse meat, because it was being produced for export or something.
It was a victory for democracy. But not for freedom.
Which is to say, a victory for pandering politicians.
It's simpler than "technocracy", IMO. If the progress is unconnected - or even antithetical - to empathy (broadly defined), the right-wing knee-jerkers are in favour. If it's connected, they're against.
haha yea, rightwingers are selfish and don’t care about others! If they did care about others, they would let the unelected and unaccountable bureaucrats in the federal government control everyone’s lives like Democrats want!
Because historically, that’s ALWAYS been good for the people!
I never said that right-wingers in general don't care about others. I did specify right-wing knee-jerkers.
Indeed, right-wingers in general do care much about others - provided those others are drawn from a very limited circle.
Ehhhh.... The same thing can plausibly be said about a lot of left-wingers: They care more about people who agree, or can be made to agree, with THEM.
Those left-wingers tend to think about caring for "the community" while not being so bothered about individuals.
When the left-wingers at the CDC extended the school masking and other school restrictions because of the demands of the teachers union, even though the restrictions were objectively harming the children, who were they caring about more?
Themselves or the community?
"Indeed, right-wingers in general do care much about others – provided those others are drawn from a very limited circle."
Spot the fallacy.
Wherein "caring about others" is equated to supporting the coercive violence of the state being applied in some way that ostensibly furthers that "others" interest.
As opposed to classical liberalism and theories of limited government, decentralization of government, and self-government.
SRG on odd days: “Those poor chickens!”
SRG on even days: “No restrictions on abortion (up to the moment of birth)!”
I have never advocated for abortion up to the moment of birth. But between a human mother and a developing fetus that is becoming human, my empathy lies with the former.
a developing fetus that is becoming human
Your fundamental ignorance of even basic biology is showing. Tell us what species you think a developing fetus in a human woman's womb belongs to.
I am not ignorant of biology. It seems you're ignorant of philosophy or logic. "Human" can mean either the species H sapiens (and possibly other species within the genus Homo, or the fully formed entity. The zygote, for example, is a zygote of H sapiens, not a zygote of say P paniscus, but it is not yet a human individual.
Hypothetical: a fire breaks out in a lab. You have time to rescue a container of 10 frozen zygotes (the container is effective for more than long enough to transfer to another appropriate lab) or a four-year old child. Which do you choose?
Corollary,
A fire breaks out in a lab, you can rescue the black transgender lesbian adult, or a four-year-old white child.
Who do you choose?
"“Human” can mean . . . the fully formed entity."
True. You can deny the humanity of people with birth defects and deformities, for example. Or those with cognitive impairments, debilitating injuries or other medical and physical conditions, or racial characteristics..
It's a well established usage with a long history. The question is whether it's right?
I am not ignorant of biology.
You clearly are.
It seems you’re ignorant of philosophy or logic.
Sorry, but your bullshit does not rise to the level of either philosophy or logic.
“Human” can mean either the species H sapiens (and possibly other species within the genus Homo, or the fully formed entity.
Wrong…especially in this context (which is a biological one). And what the hell does “fully formed” mean? The progression from zygote to adult is a continuum of development stages, with significant changes occurring at many steps along the way…including from newborn to adolescent to adult…and old adult. There’s no magical event that occurs that transforms a developing “entity” of the species from “non-human” to “human”. Once the genome is completed at conception and growth begins, it’s human. Now, while rhere are some pre-fetal stages a zygote goes through that one could argue are pre-human stages due to some ambiguities in its state, but not for a fetus…which is what you referred to as not being “human”...rendering your "frozen zygote" nonsense irrelevant.
Try again.
"Try again."
They sprout this BS to salve their consciences.
Assumes facts not in evidence there.
" Which do you choose?'
False dichotomy irrelevant to the biological question of when human life begins
Denying the humanity of victims is the easiest way to justify any atrocity.
"But between a human mother and a developing fetus that is becoming human, my empathy lies with the former."
Fortunately that is false choice. Abortion is never actually necessary to save the life of the "mother."
At the risk of hastening the refinement of devolved propaganda newspeak . . . . I note your use of the word "mother," without further comment.
Actually, sadly, there are ectopic pregnancies where both mother and child will die without an abortion.
Common misconception, but WRONG.
Even Planned Parenthood admits: "Treating an ectopic pregnancy isn’t the same thing as getting an abortion."
Close enough to get affected by abortion bans.
With bad faith intentional misinterpretation maybe.
Or overbroad laws.
Longing for the day when “organic, non-gmo, sustainably harvested and gluten free” “meat” is widely available. Will Soylent Green be far behind?
Will lab grown meat also be a floor wax?
It's the only thing government gives you to eat, farming freedom being ended.
See the Netherlands.
Scientific progress is tyranny.
It can be - certainly it was in the era of eugenics, which was very science-y. Buck v. Bell come to mind - the law must adhere to the science.
The lesson is, never try.
Will lab grown meat also be a floor wax?
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But how could it ever be kosher?
This post seems to focus on finding the optimum words to make a new product sound appealing. In my world, that it called marketing.
So where does marketing meet law? When laws are proposed to ban or to promote things based on the adjectives used to describe them. Controversy about labels merely masks a more basic controversy about an unstated morality. Rather than address the moral point, we fight about proxies.
Why is it more moral to kill plants than animals? Why is it more moral to eat man-made stuff than plants or animals? Go read Henry Hazlitt's "Foundations of Morality" if you want a rational way to deal with moral questions.
Why is it considered (by some) more moral to kill some animals than others?
All that soy has addled your brain.
Why is killing a pig, chicken, or salmon more moral than killing a horse, cat, or dog?
Why is killing a bird, fish, or bear for sport more moral than killing a horse, cat, or dog for food?
Why is swatting a fly or squashing an ant more moral than killing a horse for food?
These seem reasonable questions.
They are, of course, to a large extent culturally relative. That doesn't make them any less real, just putting them into perspective.
Of course you can also make the argument that certain species have been optimized over countless generations for consumption, while others have not.
There's a lot of useful cuts in a pig or a cow, not so much in Fido and that is something that has been developed since pre-history.
I'm not sure I'm on the side of that question you think I am.
For me those are cultural and not moral.
After a few more stolen elections, given the trajectory of Democrat rule, I can imagine several scenarios where I'd be ecstatic to eat some cat or dog.
Cause dog's got personality.
I hear pigs are rather friendly, but I make a point of never befriending my food.
My moral principle here is simple. It depends how intelligent and conscious the animal is. Cows are stupid and it's unclear the extent to which they're conscious. Carnivora are generally smart and are conscious - as anyone who has a pet dog or cat can testify.
Below a certain level of intelligence and consciousness, it's moral, above, it isn't. Where that level is is a subjective determination. For me, Carnivora are above that level. Artiodactyls are below that level - with the exception of Cetacea if included - though I would forebear from eating rhino on other grounds.
FWIW a friend of mine would refuse to eat octopus ever since he had one in his lab. It was too intelligent for him to regard it as moral to eat them.-
The same people who will insist that lab-grown meat tastes just as good if not better than normal meat will be the ones who said that masks are perfectly comfortable to wear, and they used that to justify forcing everyone to wear them. I can't see it playing out differently with banning real meat to "save yourself and the planet."
Or will throw a fit over genetically modified vegetables.
The irony of opposing factory-farming and then endorsing the lab-industrial production of food?
Is it the whole 'no living creatures were harmed?' Because that's quite a difference.
I'm willing to hazard a guess that the same people who kicked up a fuss about GM foods for the wrong reasons (there are good reasons) are the same ones who will treat lab-grown meat as the next step in the Great Reset by the New World Order.
"Lab grown" meat is normal meat, and thus its taste will be determined by how it is prepared, not where it is grown.
"“Lab grown” meat is normal meat, "
Meat contains muscle cells, fat cells, connective tissue cells, blood cells just to mention a few, arranged in ways that produce texture and mouth feel, along with an extracellular matrix of fluid and proteins.
A vat full of cloned cells will not somehow self arrange into a muscle of marbled Kobe beef, ever. When the myocytes are filtered and pressed together, along with fillers, binders, flavorants, and other materials, you will have something akin to the 'mystery meat' which is served at school lunch counters across the country.
Why on earth do you assume this? Isn't there a HUGE financial incentive for these inventors to come up with products that are as tasty as possible? I am sure there are some super-rich people who will say, "It must be Kobe beef." But, I suspect, there are a vast number of people who will say, "I can almost never afford Kobe beef. So, if you can get me 96.7% of the way there, at half the price (or 1/16th the price, etc), then that will make me perfectly happy."
My own assumption is that there will be a rush to design meat that replicates, say, the In-and-Out Burger, and another that replicates McDonald's, and another that replicates flank steak, etc etc etc. I (sadly) suspect that this will not happen in my lifetime. But maybe I'll be pleasantly surprised.
What was interesting about her post was, for me, the loony overreaction from some (who, of course, represent only the most angry and extreme of the fringe), who see this as the start of some vast conspiracy. We here at the VC should be able to use our collective wisdom to come up with a suitably clever name for this. If the batshit-crazy and paranoid witchhunt a few years ago got "Pizzagate," then maybe something like "meatgate" or "farmgate." {Meh, those are pretty weak. I'm sure others will have something better than what's coming to me right now.}
Personally I think the big mistake is trying to mimic/replace meat rather than working to create whole new foodstuffs, such that growing in a lab is only a different type of growing that occurs anywhere else. This way they're picking a fight with meat-lovers, meat suppliers and sci-fi-fed imaginations of unholy scientific horrors.
Haven't we learned anything from COVID?!?
Nuclear weaponry is not the only way that science can destroy us, and we need to be careful playing God, which is what this stuff is....
Two Points :
1. In fact, no one learned "nuclear weaponry is not the only way that science can destroy us, and we need to be careful playing God" from covid (excepting right-wingers with their fevered-brain conspiratorial gibberish, that is).
2. I feel another Nostradamus Ed apocalyptical-style prediction is on the way. Having disposed of this country & the world in several dozen different ways, why not one more?
OK, maybe it didn't come from Gain of Function research in a Wuhan Lab -- and maybe Oswald didn't kill Kennedy. But....
"There are things that man was not meant to know!"
Cue lightning storm, villagers with pitchforks, etc.
"but it sounds like it might be the non-nutritious "Beyond Meat/Impossible" slop marketed to vegans."
Just for the record:
Whopper
Calories 679 kcal
Fat 39.5 g
Saturated Fat 12.1 g
Trans Fat 0.2 g
Cholesterol 85.1 mg
Sodium 1,173.9 mg
Carbohydrates 54.8 g
Fiber 3.9 g
Sugar 14.5 g
Proteins 34.7 g
Impossible Whopper:
Calories 652.2 kcal
Fat 35.2 g
Saturated Fat 9.3 g
Trans Fat 0.2 g
Cholesterol 16.8 mg
Sodium 1,408.8 mg
Carbohydrates 61.9 g
Fiber 6.4 g
Sugar 13.7 g
Proteins 31.9 g
I'll make sure to add salt to my next real Whopper.
Just for the sake of completeness, the nutrition info for the underlying Impossible patty is 230 kcal / 13g fat (6g saturated) / 6g fiber / 370mg sodium. So cancel that out of the above, and most of the crap factor is from the bun/condiments/toppings BK wraps around the patty.
No, I don't own stock. I do enjoy the occasional Impossible patty at various restaurants that offer it, for balance and a change of pace. Flavor and texture are head and shoulders above other fakeburgers.
I tried one. It tasted like and had the texture of a burger made with 90% lean beef, which I find dry and flavorless.
Yeah, maybe less jarring to me since I typically end up in the 85-90% lean range for burgers anyway, to minimize flareups. Sprinkling a dilute baking soda mixture over the meat before cooking seems to help it retain moisture (and brown better on the outside to boot).
We tend to get the 75% here and when cooking indoors keep an extinguisher handy, just in case, but then again I tend to fry in bacon grease.
Mmmm... bacon grease. I recently discovered baked bacon -- it takes a bit longer, but it's largely hands off, every bit as good as pan-fried if not better, and super forgiving if you forget about it for an extra minute or three.
I bought an "Impossible” breakfast sandwich just thinking it was their name for the sandwich, having never heard of the "Impossible” brand.
I wouldn't let Kirkland eat that. I've never eaten cow s""t but "Impossible” "meat" must re-create the taste.
I have to say I've never tried the breakfast patty, which I presume is supposed to imitate sausage. It does seem like it could be tougher to pull off in a breakfast sandwich format, where the patty has to carry a lot more of the flavor/mouthfeel on its own without much help from surrounding toppings/condiments.
Whatever.
They taste fine to me.
Not healthy. And too expensive for me, but fine to my taste.
It's kinda silly for folks around here (And Glenn Reynolds) to pretend they're objectively bad.
Some people like vegan burgers.
Others like scrapple.
Others enjoy Arby's roast beef, Taco Bell beef, or low-grade hot dogs.
Head cheese, tripe, and Rocky Mountain oysters have fans.
The important point in this context is that some people can't stand progress, or even any change.
Is movement conservative Glenn Reynolds still running around in that garish, unconvincing libertarian drag?
Carry on, clingers.
Well, let's see:
Mr. Reynolds is concerned about the potential danger, some time in the future, of "government coercion (such as a ban on traditional cultivation of meat)." Sure sounds libertarian...
Everyone is libertarian to some degree. Some conservatives, sheepish about being known as conservatives, call themselves libertarian (or, when called on it, "often libertarian" or "libertarianish"). Mostly, though, they are faux libertarians.
Prof. Reynolds considers himself a "movement conservative" and a libertarian. Most people consider that silly.
Personally, I don't have an issue with vat grown meat, if they can produce reasonable quality at reasonable cost.
I reserve the right to judge those factors for myself if/when such a product hits local grocery store shelves.
I think that it's a perfectly rational concern that, as soon as vat grown meat is even marginally practical, enormous pressure will be brought to bear to ban animal husbandry, by people whose views may be minority, but who have an outsized amount of political influence. It's rational to fear this, because you can already see it happening, only with global warming instead of animal welfare as the excuse.
There are two reasons to be concerned about this.
The first is that, when vat grown meat becomes marginally practical, and for a long while after, it will be hugely more expensive than meat obtained from animals. Forcing a transition to it will, for most people, turn meat from a regular part of the diet to an occasional luxury.
The second is that vat meat is NOT going to be something that ordinary people can do on a small scale. It's going to be a very centralized production process. I raise a small flock of chickens, I'm largely independent in terms of eggs, and a lot of vegetables and herbs, even if my yard is too small to produce enough calories for my family. If I were still living in the country, I WOULD be food independent.
Ban animal husbandry, and you hugely increase centralized control over food. That itself has pretty profound political implications, and not just for people who value independence. It would represent a further transfer of power from rural areas to urban, and that is not a factor that people advocating synthetic meat are ignoring, I assure you.
If California or New York had just banned the killing of cows by pulling their heads off slowly, there would be right-wingers who'd make a point of eating beef from cows slaughtered thus.
Damned few of them; Stress makes meat taste bad.
Hence the hormones.
Are you even capable of commenting on anything without revealing your ignorance of wide swaths of the world? In fact, meat producers usually try to minimize stress, it's bad for feed conversion. They're not demonic beings deliberately making the animals suffer, and then spending money on hormones to disguise the taste.
Brett, referring to ordinary meat producers:
They’re not demonic beings
Brett, referring to promoters of synthetic meat:
It would represent a further transfer of power from rural areas to urban, and that is not a factor that people advocating synthetic meat are ignoring, I assure you.
The former are hard-working salt-of-the earth types.
The latter are demonic conspirators against the people.
Do you read your own comments?
"In fact" - simply not true. While stress is not good, economics are better. Why do you think that slaughterhouses try to prevent revelations about their slaughtering practices? Afraid that the public will see how humane they are?
GMAFB.
You have anything in particular to back that other than the typical collections of onesie-twosie exceptions where something gets botched that activist groups cast as typical practice?
Are you arguing it's not good market into avoid dwelling on the nitty gritty of how meat comes from slaughtering animals?
Like, do you think Fast Food Nation made meat purveyors happy?
I recall an incident where Jamie Oliver tried to turn some elementary school kid off of processed meat by showing them how chicken nuggets were made. The kids were all suitable grossed out, right up until they saw and smelled the finished product being fried up, then the detachment kicked back in and it was just food again.
Yeah lol. I read Fast Food Nation and the chapter on french fries and all the big flavor science made me hungry for fries.
Social change!
The subject under discussion is whether "meat producers usually try to minimize stress."
Do you have anything useful to contribute about that?
Oh dear. Did you read SRG's comment and miss the part about the economics? It sure seems like you responded to that part.
Ah, Sophistr0 -- economics was merely the feels-right underlying rationale for SRG's support-free "nuh uh."
I asked for support of the alleged slaughtering practices, giving some examples of what I considered to be inadequate support.
Not hard unless you're trying to make it so.
Who gets ag-gag laws passed, and why?
Or perhaps you've never heard of them.
Starting point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ag-gag
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2019/1/11/18176551/ag-gag-laws-factory-farms-explained
Ah, ok. So because producers in some states have built up some recourse against the activists' practices of casting onesie-twosie exceptions as the producers' systemic practices, that's somehow proof that the activists are correct. That's about what I figured.
From your ooo-something's-fishy article:
Um, no. Generating collections of "one scary image" large enough to look like large-scale abuse takes time. If the problem is truly as systemic as you and they are making it out to be, it should be child's play to snap a large number of pictures (or heck, even a nice 30-second panoramic sweep of the camera across the alleged fields of systemic abuse) in a day.
But I have a funny feeling this is one of those situations where broad-scale context would be... well, counterproductive to the story the activists are trying to spin.
If only one county in one state had tried this, you'd have a point. As a number of states have Ag-gag laws, you don't
Because... producers that have been targeted by activists don't have locations in multiple states? Because... activists don't try underhanded distortion tactics in multiple states? Because... activists have only been running this playbook against meat companies for a few short decades, so multiple states having laws reacting to them is somehow prima facie evidence of a coordinated suppression campaign?
What exactly is your point?
Wow, freedom of speech just went right out the fucken window there.
Let's be honest, they don't want you independent. They want to control you.
Let's be honest. You're projecting.
If you made a list of all the things you encounter on a given day that has been manipulated or otherwise influenced by some Federal bureaucrat or Democrat do-gooder, and then made a list of things you encountered manipulated by people like me, which list do you think would be longer and which list would you think had a bigger limiting factor on your freedom and liberty?
That is a tribute more to the political ineffectiveness of your side than to their love of liberty - which love seems to be somewhat circumscribed in other areas.
It's the political ineffectiveness of my side to keep the totalitarian impulses of your side in check, so my side is the real totalitarians?
Are you for real?
That transfer is called bright flight.
All of the smart, ambitious young people flee the desolate backwaters at high school graduation, seeking the modernity, education, and economic opportunity to be found elsewhere (in modern, successful, educated communities; on strong, mainstream, liberal-libertarian campuses). In general, they never return, except (perhaps, for a while) on holidays.
This creates a concentrating pool of dysfunction, ignorance, superstition, resentment, bigotry, indolence, inbreeding, addiction, economic inadequacy, and disaffectedness in the backwaters.
That depleted human residue is the core of the Republican Party.
Alternatively, too many rats in a small space leads to fighting.
It is in the service of the power hungry corruptions to bray to those in cities that they should control the countryside they fled over the decades.
Hey remember when those "smart, ambitious young people" tried to grow food in in their protest zone to become food-independent? Good times.
Hey, remember when scaled operations funded and controlled by out-of-towners began to improve food production, and some people responded by demanding that government protect the small, less productive, less profitable operators from legitimate competition?
"the desolate backwaters"
You never escaped, did you? Is that why you are so bitter?
Way to prove her point, idiot.
‘to ban animal husbandry’
Most US farming is controlled by huge corporations, most animal husbandry is done in factory farms with conditions so atrocious they made a law to stop people showing footage of it, and most of the meat is fattened with hormones illegal in other jurisdictions and processed by underpaid poorly-treated labour that every now and then turns out to be actual child labour, using standards too low for other jurisdictions. Most of the monoculture arable crops grown in the US, currently threatened by drought and flood thanks to climate change, are for animal feed. So basically, control of food in the US is already centralised, in the hands of a few massive coporations fattened on government subsidies driving unsustainable and environmentally destructive practices. I would agree that anything that regulates this to replace it with vat-grown meat that also regulates small scale old-school animal husbandry out of existence would, frankly, be disastrous, but the small scale stuff is still just small scale, I would prefer to seem more of it rather than less.
I wonder why the people in the Federal Government would subsidize such harmful practices and not do anything about it for so long?
It's a mystery.
Exactly what is the vat-grown meat supposed to eat, and where is it supposed to come from?
Even if it is a brew of sugars and amino acids, that's going to have to come from -- crops grown in Red States....
I doubt this. Fermentation and cheese making is practical in small batches (I’ve done it!). Vat grown meat will be grown from stem cells in a nutrient bath, similar to the process for beer and wine making. The setup is no harder than what is needed for a salt water aquarium. Any hormones or biological can already be purchased through a vet or at your local Tractor Supply. Of course, just like beer, its more cost efficient to make it in huge vats. But I expect people will still make “craft” items.
"The setup is no harder than what is needed for a salt water aquarium."
If vat grown meat was that easy to do at home, people would already be doing it. We'd at least have specialty gourmet restaurants advertising meat grown in their own kitchens.
We may get there in a few years, but I still think it'll be a case of buying the nutrient bath from some large industrial organization, which still raises concerns about centralization.
But next time I go into a Tractor Supply I'll ask which aisle has the vat meat growing supplies.
The issue is the cell line, which I am thinking is patented. I would look for craft micromeateries to crop up in about 30 years, once the patents have expired.
Immortal cell lines from mammalian tissue... could there be a word for that. Oh yeah, cancer!
Huh. Locally vat-grown meat/food (if we just drop the obsession with meat we could be vat-growing all sorts of foodstuffs, presumably) – what an incredible threat that would be to Big Ag, no wonder they're all out agin’ it.
Everything is culture-war fodder for the right-wing outrage media. The whole hubbub over gas ranges was instructive.
It's a good thing we got the lead out of our gas and the CFCs out of our atmosphere before Tucker and Ben came onto the scene.
Is there any edict from the elites you won't worship?
No one expects or desires worship.
But your betters will continue to have your compliance, clinger.
Just like your betters have you complying with their speech codes.
No more calling people Sl_ck J_ws for you, bootlicker!
I can describe a person as sl_ck-jaw_d in every context except as a commenter at the Volokh Conspiracy. The professor's playground, the professor's rules.
(I can, of course, use racial slurs as much as I like at the Volokh Conspiracy, however.)
I doubt Prof. Volokh believes you are helping when you call attention to his record of viewpoint-driven censorship.
The important point is that you, Prof. Volokh, and every other conservative will continue to lose at the American marketplace of ideas and to have your stale, ugly thinking increasingly rejected by the modern American mainstream. That mainstream will establish the rules and you will continue to comply.
Hey speaking of marketplace of ideas and culture war.
Which movie did better in the marketplace of ideas, Top Gun Maverick or that gay romcom?
You know, patriotism and masculinity aligned with my ideas, or homosexual degeneracy and soy, like your ideas?
Domestically, Black Panther seems destined to overtake Top Gun: Maverick.
Avatar: The Way Of Water may outearn it, too.
(Worldwide, the second Avatar has already smoked Maverick -- by a half-billion dollars -- and Black Panther, still earning more than $2 million weekly, is positioned to overtake Maverick soon.)
At the marketplace of ideas, conservatives are no longer competitive. Liberals produce and consume the best entertainments (movies, television, music, comedy, etc.); conservatives watch Blue Bloods and Gutfeld, listen to twangy-drawly music, and think Jeff Foxworthy is a world-class comedian.
Like Velma.
lmao
There was no "edict." There was an acknowledgment that gas ranges could be connected with childhood asthma rates, and that, if they can't be made safer, there are various regulatory approaches to addressing that risk.
That is perfectly normal. Research is done; a substance or product we've long taken for granted is discovered to be harmful; we respond by trying to mitigate those harms. That's what we did with lead in gas and paint, it's what we did with CFCs, that's what we've done with countless pesticides and additives.
You can debate the science. Sure, the gas-range study might have holes. That is a perfectly normal part of the discourse, and ought to influence the regulatory process. But that's not what we saw from the right-wing outrage media.
Or float a trial balloon, waggle the fingers, oh look.
Not everything is a goddamn conspiracy against your way of life.
Well, let's see:
Ban cars, ban lightbulbs, ban gas stoves, etc., etc., ...
I'd say it's a conspiracy against
my way oflife.Ban good toilets.
Again, these are just hyperbolic extrapolations of regulatory efforts to *checks notes* reduce reliance on fossil fuels and prevent avoidable health conditions.
Completely disconnected from reality, or what anyone has ever said or advocated for.
Look back at the OP. The author was bemoaning the right-wing knee-jerk reaction that she's gotten for merely suggesting that lab-grown meat could be a suitable replacement for the real thing. And all of you dittoheads are here frothing out the mouth like you were paid to make conservatives all seem like insane morons.
Because we're taking into account the real world dynamics behind what is going on. And she wants to ignore them.
The thing you're calling "real world dynamics" is "unhinged conspiracy thinking dissociated from anything anyone has actually said or advocated for."
Look at your own damn comment. You don't accuse her of being a woke progressive. You accuse her being ignorant of a broader long-term conspiracy to further centralize power in urban centers by outlawing small-scale animal husbandry.
You know, I used to wonder why you chucklefucks all insisted that you didn't watch FoxNews. It was only recently that I realized that you all can say that in full honesty, because you were in fact huffing a glue of an entirely different order.
"Sure, the gas-range study might have holes."
That's just a bit of an understatement.
So you solve that with new studies.
A comprehensive study was done a few years back by the NIH that showed no issues at all with gas stoves. I published a link in one of the comment threads. This should be settled.
There’s no need to do new studies. The study that started the mini kerfuffle was done by an interest group and worked backwards from a conclusion.
The climate panickers have settled on meat and hydrocarbons as enemies to be snuffed out.
If the study is as legit as you say, a regulation contrary to it's finding will be arbitrary and capricious.
If a court finds the study is fine, that's when you should get concerned.
Right now there isn't even a regulation!
If only that were so - Griswold wouldn't have crafted a set of penumbras and emanations as its justification; it would've just said this is arbitrary and capricious.
Griswold was not about science, nor the ACA.
Griswold was about reproductive health - seems like an intersection of science and law. In my perfect world it would never have been a valid law because a state's police power doesn't reach that, without specific language or constitutional spectres.
Apparently in your world 9A doesn't exist.
And you don't enact policy based on very poor, very speculative 'science'.
I concur. Of course, I may not agree with you on what counts as poor science.
Which is why we do Chevron and the ACA; someone needs to arbitrate the science.
Have you heard of the new scientific integrity initiatives being rolled out? Keeps politicals from dictating scientific results. Kinda bad we need to make rules about that. Didn't used to have to.
Ah that's the problem with science and how it differs from law. Science is much more efficient (ha, even if not like the mythology) in discarding bad old ideas. The law conserves them.
haha yeah like lockdowns, mask mandates, and BOOOSTERING!
Most public health these days has nothing to do with actual science.
"Could be" is pretty weak sauce to justify a brand-new regulatory regime for technology that's been in use for hundreds of years, innit?
Maybe the broader lesson for us all is that safety regulators never actually work themselves out of a job.
Wasn't it Mr. Sinclair who quipped about never convincing a man of something that goes against how he earns his living?
Life of Brian must have been an important contributor to the 'should we ditch the tradition of using asbestos in clothing and Christmas decorations?' debate.
Artie, if you could be so kind as to point us to where asbestos in
clothing and Christmas decorations (or even in residential construction, which was a weird omission) was banned based on the notion that it "could be" a problem, your flip, reflexive analogy might actually have some legs. Or, you could just go back to cutting and pasting bitter-clinger rants.
Have Republicans been able to prevent regulation that would prohibit asbestos in children's clothing, Christmas decorations, toasters, and oven mitts?
I would have thought even Republicans would have stopped defending asbestos in Christmas decorations children play with.
Objection; non-responsive. Almost like you couldn't come up with anything even mildly cogent to say, but felt like you had to respond anyway.
Or maybe you're just a bot twerking on keywords. I've toyed with that idea from time to time -- it sure would explain a lot of the repetitive droning and semi-orthogonal responses like the one above.
Why would anyone -- other than an anti-government crank who does not deserve respect from better Americans -- object to research with respect to whether an item found in many homes promotes asthma in children?
Thank goodness the left wing progressive mobs don’t chase culture war fodder.
Government tells us we can’t eat meat. Simon “that’s great”
White girl wears her hair in cornrows “CULTURAL APPROPRIATION!!!”
Your side is awful too.
There is no correlate, on the left, to Tucker, or Hannity, or any of them.
When has the government ever said this? What are you talking about? This is just Tucker-spin.
Twitter spats are not equivalent to coordinated campaigns spanning multiple mainstream conservative outlets defending hamburgers. No Democratic politician is trying to ban white men or women from wearing their hair in cornrows or engaging in other forms of "cultural misappropriation." Meanwhile, laws are being floated to ban drag shows entirely or prohibit adults from voluntarily receiving gender-affirming healthcare.
GTFO with this "my side/your side" nonsense. Again, you're so eager to engage in a culture war spat that you don't recognize that a person who disagrees with your insanity might not actually agree with the "other side's" insanity, either.
"no correlate, on the left, to Tucker, or Hannity, or any of them"
Joy Reid
Rachel Maddow.
I'm not sure you quite grasp what it is that makes someone like Tucker... unique.
I'm not talking about just loud-mouthed ideologues.
Tucker and Hannity are indistinguishable from Reid and Maddow.
And my point was that if you’re willing to make ridiculous broad claims about people you hate you should learn to accept the same about people you agree with.
And that’s a thing the progressive dominated media is doing now. They bring up something that needs to be prohibited like meat and gas stoves, then when there is pushback they cry “ooh, culture wars”. Your side hates debate about issues. And individual choice.
Tucker and Hannity are indistinguishable from Reid and Maddow.
My dude, one is pushing Great Replacement bullshit, the other is more into tedious minutua of the Russian collusion.
They are both not great, but one is actively awful. This is not both sides.
Funny you should mention Great Replacement. Where could that possibly have come from?
https://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B0036QVPEU/reasonmagazinea-20/
It's fair to say it is a misread, or poor interpretation, but GR isn't a product of whole cloth.
So the only difference between the loud-mouthed ideologues is that one has an ideology closer to your own.
“Not great”. Lol.
Point is you shouldn’t listen to anything any of those four say. Way too many people do.
You very much give yourself away when insisting that only side has a peculiar evil.
Bob, Joy Reid hates Democrats almost as much as you do.
He said left, not Democrat.
Have a horseshoe.
She doesn't function as the left these days, she functions as an anti-liberal. Her and Glenn Greenwald are not leftists.
"Her and Glenn Greenwald are not leftists."
LOL
She just got too embarrassing for you, so you disown her.
[Note that I correctly used "she" to start a sentence.]
I note that you never correct the illiterate bigots who share your obsolete, ugly political preferences.
I also await your replacement, which will be a great day for America.
No, Rachel Maddow is embarrassing to me. Joy, and Glenn, etc. have discarded any actual ideals in favor of anti-liberalism.
You should check BJR out - you'd love her.
You make disowning terrible people like that sound like a bad thing.
CFC's are still there,
in fact if you've ever had General Anesthesia, thats what you were breathing (and likely some Nitrous Oxide, NOT a CFC)
Formula for Sevoflurane, C4H3F7O, Desflurane C3H2F6O, Isoflurane C3H2ClF5O. And they don't get consumed in the process, you breathe them in, out, and they end up in the Troposphere like everything else.
Frank
We wouldn't have lead in our gasoline now anyway -- no one would buy it. Imagine the cost of having to replace (or sandblast) your spark plugs every 5000 miles.... There are cars where you have to physically take the engine halfway out of the car to change the back plugs....
Everyone with a brain knows the WEF/Democrat/Marxist crowd will create a two-class society. Goy slop, no cars, tiny apartments, fifteen-minute travel zones, shitty government healthcare, carbon policing for the masses. Real meat, fancy cars & yachts, free travel, private healthcare, and large estates for the elites.
And all the bootlickers will be defending the elites saying their roles are too important, and OF COURSE, they get real meat, OF COURSE, they can fly to Bali on private jets to save the world from carbon emissions, OF COURSE, they get oceanfront estates, they are saving the planet! And it’s such an impending CRISIS that their plans take 30 years to implement! How can they save the planet 100 years from now if they live like they made the rest of us today?
These are your fans, Volokh Conspirators.
Are you proud of this?
Proud of my astute analysis of current trends and deep knowledge of history?
Proud of attracting such a concentrated collection of half-educated, roundly bigoted, disaffected, antisocial fans.
and (Rev) Jerry Sandusky
Are you talking about the concentration of most of the world's wealth in the hands of a smaller and smaller number of individuals, the stangnation of wages, the rising cost of properties often driven by rich people adding properties to portfolios and keeping prices high, the underfunding and neglect of public health services to facilitate selling them off to private interests so everyone can enjoy the sort of hellscape enjoyed by the US, and the profit-and-subsidy-driven unsustainable intensive agricultural practices driving environmental destruction and climate change which will ultimately create a massive food crisis? That sort of thing? Can I interest you in a massive wealth tax? We could also ban provtae jets, I'm game.
Average health and wealth continues to increase...as long as government corruption's fingers stay out of it, so people are free to meet each others' needs.
"Income inequality" is a class warfare retread and red herring.
Wait, is it the private 'evil elites' doing all this or 'government?'
I don't think the disparity is a red herring to the struggling middling and working classes.
What do you think is gonna be banned first? Your gas-powered car or their private jets and yachts?
In a capitalist society money rules, so, sadly...
My bigger concern would be that Big Ag would fuel a lot of the misconceptions about vat grown meat because its a threat to their business.
I have no doubt we will see some unscientific fads around vat grown meat, just like around GMO crops, California's ban on pork, and labeling everything cancerous. It will be grown from stem cells, and the nutrient baths will consume a lot of energy (probably not from solar). lots for both the left, the right, and the agriculture industry to hate. disruptive technologies have that effect.
Hey just think we went from GMO crops to GMO humans in a half a generation.
Do you think you'll get a refund if you can show them your myocarditis receipts?
The real effect of Prop 65 is that now everyone ignores the labels.
When will a Prop 65 label be placed on the California legislature?
“This policy slowed medical tech advancement by 8% by generally business-unfriendly practices, leading to 67,427,998 excess deaths worldwide over 40 years.”
Will there be a danger label, much less punishment? Nope. Indeed the elected mass murderers probally got praised for their kind hearts.
I've got enough of an education in biology to understand that vat grown meat is not going to be cost competitive with animal derived meat any time soon, if ever. Not unless the parity is achieved by deliberately driving up the cost of animal derived meat, anyway.
It basically comes down to the fact that animals are self-reproducing, you basically just have to supply them with food and remove wastes. And they've got immune systems, which goes a huge way towards solving the sanitation problem.
Growing tissue artificially requires totally over the top sanitation to avoid bacteria turning your future meat into putrid slop. It's extremely difficult to grow solid tissue more than a mm or so thick without a circulatory system to deliver food and remove wastes. And you need to replicate the function of all the organs you're not growing, artificially. Potentially you might get marginally better feed conversion, though.
Now, with enough hard work and inventiveness, all of this could be solved, of that I'm quite sure. Or you could turn the same hard work and inventiveness at the task of improving farm animals. But the fact remains that animals are a working package solution that is self reproducing with minimal unskilled labor. The odds of a high tech solution being more cost effective are not good.
For an analysis of the problem:
https://www.greenbiz.com/article/lab-meat-has-3-big-problems-it-time-pivot
A sample form the rather long article of just one problem:
"According to that report on cultivated meat by McKinsey, to build out cultivated meat production to reach 1 percent of the protein market would need between 220 million to 440 million liters of fermentation capacity, or roughly 88 to 176 Olympic-size swimming pools. For perspective, the current biopharma industry has less than 10 swimming pools of capacity.
"I can understand the concerns about reaching the scales that would be needed to produce tons of meat, because we would be talking about 10,000 liters, and that has never been done before," said Mariana Petronela Hanga, a lecturer in cell agriculture at University College London, who focuses on scaling. "The highest scale that I am aware of is 200 liters. So there’s definitely going to be a challenge there."
And even that would be production of a cell slurry, not solid meat.
When did this discussion turn toward chicken nuggets, Arby's roast beef, Taco Bell meat, Hardee's burgers, etc.?
The Rev hates young poor people!
I would have guessed that Hardee's and Arby's (like Denny's, Golden Corral, and Cracker Barrel) skew toward an older clientele.
And young, poor people seem to be strong candidates to be vegetarians or vegans.
I only judge based on their advertising - presuming they are appealing to the demographics that populate that.
My understanding of the lab-grown meat is that is the first step, then a process similar to 3D printing forms it into the cut of meat that you want (as opposed to literal growing of muscle tissue)
Yeah, something like that. You take the cell slurry, get rid of the excess culture solution, add binders, and print it into meat.
I'm not saying it's impossible to pull off. Just that it's enormously more technically involved than raising animals, with huge demands for sterile process, and having to duplicate the functions animals already have organs to accomplish.
If you were dependent on manufacturing meat in factories as proposed, and somebody invented self-reproducing 'meat factories' that incorporated all the technology of a meat factory into a small package that could be operated with unskilled labor, they'd probably get the Nobel prize, it would be such a huge advance.
Can’t remember who said, “Life is just nature’s way of keeping meat fresh. “
I can't remember who said "Food doesn't taste great unless it had a mommy who loved it."
". . . you basically just have to supply them with food and remove wastes."
You're forgetting all the other steps to bring meat to the consumer.
Transportation
Slaughter
Packaging
Transportation
* Inspection at every step
When you factor in those costs, maybe the differences aren't so big.
And I wonder if/how vat-meat (veat?) can be made organically.
Except for "slaughter" the same costs apply to trans-meat.
So vat-grown meat doesn't have to be transported, packaged, or inspected? Not sure how you're managing that.
No transport or packaging, and the inspection will be automated at your home.
You'll have a little counter-top synthesizer in the kitchen. A few vials of seed solutions with eyedroppers in the (cryo) fridge. The nutrient bath will be a generic soup that is a piped in, metered utility (they could use the old natural gas lines after we go 100% electric). You can program up whatever but the syntho will be networked to a central server that'll "inspect" what you asked for and make sure that your overall choices fall within FDA/USDA guidelines. Just gentle reminders unless you become a habitual violator.
Vats of bacteria are already used to produce food ingredients. One of the victories of big business over the granola crowd was buying a federal rule saying food produced by genetically modified organisms need not be labeled GMO. A label is required if you are eating transgenic DNA.
The organic label was taken over the same way. It conjured up images of traditional small farming techniques, but it means your food was produced on a big farm and contains more than the usual amount of bug parts.
For $20,000 a company will sell you the right to use a logo saying your product meets some stereotypical hippie definition of organic. Same deal as kosher certification. It means whatever the certifying authority wants it to mean. If you trust the certifying authority and value its judgment you can look for the label. Otherwise, no harm done.
"Vats of bacteria are already used to produce food ingredients. "
For thousands of years in fact!
Yeah, I've done that myself. Still have a bit of that soy sauce I made left, I haven't used it all up yet.
Fungi are more common than bacteria in traditional food making.
There's also the fact that I have no desire to eat lab-grown meat. If I want to eat vegetarian, beans and tofu exist and are generally tastier, less processed, and more wholesome than this artificial junk.
Artificial meat is filling a market niche that doesn't exist.
One would expect a meat substitute to come in much cheaper as a way of appealing to a segment of the market. Or of course with great cachet (a la Wagyu) to justify the higher price.
As the post explains, lab grown meat is not "vegetarian." It's not a meat substitute like the Beyond Meat/Impossible Meat stuff. It's actual meat. The same stuff you're eating now — just manufactured differently.
noun: meat; plural noun: meats
1. the flesh of an animal (especially a mammal) as food.
No animal involved, therefore not meat according to the everyday definition. "Meat" is not a particular arrangement of molecules: where it came from is an inherent part of its definition.
And it's not even the same chemicals and structure: you know perfectly well that when y'all get around to banning "real" meat, law enforcement will not have any trouble telling the difference with a few simple tests or a glance at a microscope slide. No need to catch anyone in the act of butchering.
You are half right. Keep in mind we already have organisms that grow well in nutrient baths (fish), and the definition of meat is very broad. Hybridize fish + cow stem cells, and you are in business with some aquarium equipment. All we really need to do is to get fish to grow faster on a fish farm, and insert the right genes.
"Growing tissue artificially requires totally over the top sanitation to avoid bacteria turning your future meat into putrid slop."
No... Beer, sausage, and cheese makers solved this problem thousands of years ago. Its well-understood how to selectively grow specific cells in a nutrient bath. I could probably list 7 different ways to do this without "over the top" sanitation. For example: old world sausage making solves this with salt and acid.
"Hybridize fish + cow stem cells, and you are in business with some aquarium equipment."
That's the sort of thing I meant by applying the same hard work and ingenuity to improving farm animals. Make tilapia taste like beef, and you'd really have something.
"No… Beer, sausage, and cheese makers solved this problem thousands of years ago."
Yeah, right. I home brew, make my own sausage, have made cheese, created sourdough starters from scratch. The level of sterility needed isn't that huge, because the relevant microorganisms reproduce very rapidly under ideal conditions, and usually have been selected to be tolerant of things their wild counterparts can't survive. And generally you're not planning on relying on the microorganisms for a major part of your diet, they're just modifying already existing food. If I brew six gallons of mead, I might end up with a few ounces of yeast cells, that represent a tiny fraction of the food value I invested in the process.
With the vat grown meat, you're culturing animal tissue cells, that evolved over billions of years to grow fairly slowly and inside an existing animal, relying on specialization to support them. They do NOT do well in simple culture media, and they're easy fodder for any bacteria that come along. Culturing animal cells is hard. Culturing them in fully defined media that don't require fetal extracts or amniotic fluid to supply some "X" factor you can't quite identify? Barely possible at this point.
I fully believe these technological obstacles will eventually be overcome. I think it will be a long, long time before this approach is remotely cost effective compared to animal husbandry.
"The level of sterility needed isn’t that huge, because the relevant microorganisms reproduce very rapidly under ideal conditions, and usually have been selected to be tolerant of things their wild counterparts can’t survive"
Lots of old world sausage and makers use raw meat and natural wild bacteria (and no starter cultures!).
Zero sterility required.
I highly recommend the book "The Art of making fermented sausages" by Marijanski and Marjianski.
Fermentation is controlled spoilage. The acidic and salty environment selects for the bacteria that fosters the fermentation + flavor.
That's true, and I never had to use a starter culture making saurkraut.
But, again, we're not talking about culturing microorganisms here.
We're talking about culturing cells from multi-cellular organisms, which are evolved to live inside a complete organism, they specialize enormously, are not functionally complete in themselves. They can't fight back against bacteria, for instance, because they rely on the immune system to do that. Often they don't even want to grow in suspension, because they're looking for signals from neighboring cells in order to stay alive, which is why, for instance, if you get a minor wound that releases some skin cells into your bloodstream, you don't end up with your veins clogged by skin growing in them. The skin cells refuse to grow outside of skin!
The fact that I can make bread with yeast I get off of an unwashed piece of fruit in no way implies that I can grow a piece of meat in a vat.
The big thing you are overlooking: the problem has already been solved. Companies new produce nutrient bath chicken etc. Its just not cost effective and it needs to be molded into a final product. But, FDA and USDA approval is imminent for a few companies.
Right, and I'm saying the reason it isn't cost effective, and isn't likely to be any time soon, is that in order to do it, they have to artificially duplicate the environment a complete animal would provide the cells, complete with over the top sanitation because there's no immune system.
They're not culturing the cells the way the brewing industry does yeast. They're doing it in a much more complex manner that's very hard to pull off, you can't just mash some grain and dump in muscle tissue from a cow, and expect it to thrive, or even stay alive.
It's closer to what the pharmaceutical industry is doing.
I am reading their process, and I think its closer to what large brewery’s (like Anheuser-Busch) do for beer. tbf there is little difference these days between what large brewerys and large phama makers do anyway.
they grow the cells in a vat then compress them into a shape. The nutrients and oxygen are in the broth, same as plasma and blood. Stirring it takes the place of capillaries.
As with many new food processes, the cost of getting past the regulators is one of the biggest costs. Once they are past FDA and USDA approval, their marginal costs ought to be pretty low.
Also, why did they locate their facility in Emeryville, California ??? LMAO. That probably adds 30% to their costs right there.
While I question your expertise, I don't doubt that it's hard, or the stuff would already be on the market. That wasn't really the point of the post, though.
Nieporent, true story. Twenty-five years ago a biotech firm was a graphic design client of the studio I worked in. The client got approval and a commercial hit on a biotech drug, and proceeded to build a gigantic plant to make it in quantity—probably more than $100 million invested, maybe much more. Even before the plant was fully operational, someone figured out you could get the same quantity of the drug out of the milk from one small herd of genetically gifted goats. So they milked the goats and sold the reactors. They kept that quiet, but an art director for the design firm got a tour the goat farm. We were all sworn to secrecy.
Prof Volokh, ain’t gonna matter much to this Jew….there will be no OU kosher bacon, lab grown or not. 🙁
Would any lab grown meat be kosher? Since a lab grown steak never had cloven hooves, nor chewed its cud.
I think a rabbi would classify lab-grown meat as plant material, since it never drew breath.
If that ends up being the consensus then Commenter_XY's lab-grown bacon should be good to go.
I suppose there may be a letter-of-the-law vs spirit-of-the-law debate though.
You got it...That is exactly why you will not get OU sanctioned bacon, or lab grown cheeseburgers = spirit of the law vs letter of the law incongruity.
Would any lab grown meat be kosher?
This is being addressed in Israel. Sometimes yes.
But just how does the vat meat get to be kosher?
As long as consumers are aware of what they are buying. Vat-created meat may be less nutritious then normal meat, and if it can be mixed with normal meat in a way that is hard to detect, that could be really bad. But fully informed choices seem fine to me.
I don't mind it being available, my concern is entirely about the prospect that, as soon as it's available, a major push will be made to make alternatives unavailable.
If assured that couldn't happen, I'd cheer for vat meat's expansion of choices.
You mean like non fossil fuel alternative energy? Aren't we being assured it will provide the energy we need while destroying existing base load plants before it is up to scale?
Precisely. These ideologically driven developments tend to be accompanied by efforts to kill off the existing approach in order to force adoption.
'ideologically driven'
Necessity. I know you're in denial about the whole thing, but still.
"real meat, grown in a vat instead of in a cow"
Sorry, beef is the flesh of a cow. Unless a cow is coming out of that vat first, its not beef.
Not interested in trans-meat.
Bob's a real purist!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qr2bSL5VQgM
LOL, trans-meat. That is a new one.
This is a hypo in which new tech creates different societal cost-benefit calculous.
That is not tyranny, it is just change.
Unsurprising how many on the right seem to be confusing the two.
If they tell you that you can’t do something as fundamental as eating real meat, that’s tyranny.
Take a look at what’s happening to Dutch farmers right now today and tell me that’s not tyranny. Having their livelihoods taken away due to a rule dictated by a body into which they have no input.
It's a hypo. Not Dutch farmers.
If they can ban heroin, where do you draw the line?
What about smoking? Are those laws tyranny?
That's kind of the point here - you are certain this is tyranny based on just pointing to it and saying its tyranny.
Looks a lot more like it's your ox getting gored so you don't like it.
I eat and love meat as well. I'm fine with it coming from science not a moo-cow though.
Funny how the power to tax (opiates) became the power to destroy the market in them.
Obviously that can never be tyrannical because taxes are the price of civilized society.
I'm not too familiar with the early history of illegal drugs, but I don't think it was just taxes.
Yeah, like you said, you're not to familiar with the subject. At the federal level they actually DID start out with just heavy taxes, because they knew they didn't have the constitutional authority to actually ban them, but the Supreme court had permitted them to go after drugs by levying insanely high taxes.
It's actually fairly recently, historically speaking, that the federal government started acting as though it had the authority to ban things.
The same approach was used in the NFA, which is why I'm familiar with the history of it.
It’s actually fairly recently, historically speaking, that the federal government started acting as though it had the authority to ban things.
Dunno if we were as libertarian a country as you think back then.
Plenty federal bans on speech of the break. Conduct, as well. Banking. And, of course, freeing slaves.
It's a cute story; doesn't hold up.
Take a gander through my link below - it's a Holmes opinion so it is fairly brief. He takes pain to note that this law couldn't possibly be considered to apply to everyone, only to a particular class, for exactly the reason that it would overstretch the federal reach otherwise.
Yeah, that's my point: You dunno. All sorts of historical sources back this up, but you don't know.
'Cause you don't want to, I suspect.
https://supreme.justia.com/cases/federal/us/241/394/
Then eat your fake meat and leave my choice alone. That’s the part you’re glossing over.
Cook on your induction cooktop and leave my gas cooktop alone.
That’s the difference between me and you. Or your side anyway. I’m happy to let you have choices. You don’t care to reciprocate.
The difference between you and me is that I know there is a general federal police power, and you don't much care to learn.
"there is a general federal police power"
Not a legitimate one.
That’s stupid and incorrect. I’m arguing the policy, not the power. Ridiculous attempt to change the subject on your part, but note that your failure to say that this kind of stuff should be left alone demonstrates the existence of your inner authoritarian.
It's not so inner.
Couple this with the tendency to speak on matters about which he has stated he is ignorant -this isn't a trait restricted to his in-group, but it is endemic there. I posit that 90+% of the discussion here from select members of the commentariat is the same.
Yeah, and as has famously been said, the problem isn't what people don't know, it's what they don't know that isn't so.
Constitutionally, no, there ISN'T any "general federal police power".
US v Lopez
"To uphold the Government's contention that § 922(q) is justified because firearms possession in a local school zone does indeed substantially affect interstate commerce would require this Court to pile inference upon inference in a manner that would bid fair to convert congressional Commerce Clause authority to a general police power of the sort held only by the States."
You are not a member of Libertarians For Statist Womb Management and Libertarians For Big-Government Micromanagement Of Ladyparts Clinics?
The concern isn't that there will be a natural societal change, but rather that government will attempt to force such a change when it doesn't occur as quickly or completely as they'd prefer.
I mean, you can make up all sorts of things to get concerned about, I suppose.
There is not a whiff of this being under consideration.
Because the technology isn't ripe yet, but we see similar processes with NG home appliances, gasoline cars and lawn equipment, smart guns, etc. Once the technology exists the choice is taken away from consumers.
Ahh yes, the banning of gas cars and lawn equipment.
You're basing your far future projection off of things you are *already projecting*.
This is a copy of a copy, if the copy machine defaulted to revolutionary war cosplay.
CA's ban on the sale of gas-powered lawn equipment begins next year, and the ban on the sale of gas powered cars in 2035. That's not projection, it's on the books already. And there's certainly much more than a "whiff" of similar bans being implemented elsewhere, even nationwide.
But feel free to go back to covering your ears and claiming everything is projection.
From federal to state, with no friction at all!
And a law to go into effect in 12 years, truly a rock-solid policy there.
You are so free yet dissatisfied, you looking for ways to feel oppressed and feel like a rebel.
defaultdotxbe, if California would ban existing gas-powered lawn equipment I would consider moving there. Anyone who would buy a gas-powered lawn mower or gas powered weed whacker now should have his head examined. My electric ones are more powerful than any I had before, they don't make racket, they get every job done without recharging, they spare the mess and hazards of gas and oil, they have served me for years, and they are emission free, at least in my neighborhood. The only thing they haven't improved is the noise my neighbors make.
Also, if you haven't tried an induction range, you don't know what you are missing. I used to love cooking on a gas stove. Whenever I looked for an apartment to rent or a house to buy, no gas for the range was a deal breaker. Then I found out about induction ranges and gave an inexpensive one a try. Now, I would never go back to gas. Low heat is more controllable with induction; you get more power to boil water quicker; you have no open flame to set your clothes on fire, or ignite stray oil; in-the-pot response to temperature changes is even faster and more controllable than with gas; the stove is inherently clean, instead of inherently a mess; because of the control, and the way the heat is delivered, I can for the first time sear a steak without smoking up the house and setting off the smoke alarms. I don't even understand how that's possible, but I'll take it. That's before you get to any concerns about turning your house into a chimney with you living inside. And my combined energy bill for gas and electricity went down after I installed the induction range.
I get that liberty to make your own choices is generally good. It is also in conflict with any need to make collective choices about mutually shared resources—and energy supply is the number one example of that. If, as in the case of switching to electrical induction cooking, or electrical lawn care, you get results which benefit the public and also benefit the overwhelming number of consumers in nearly every way, I have to wonder what vociferous resistance is really about. Are you among those who still demand tungsten light bulbs? Really?
Those choices all have external costs society isn't always prepared to keep paying, not to mention massive direct funding.
You must never get a whiff of the air in Davos.
Davos is just rich folks smelling each other’s farts.
They don’t run the world in any general sence.
When employees and elected officials of the U.S. federal government attend, then it must be an extremely bad case of money meeting power.
Yeah, they're taking orders.
And then the Elders will Speak.
This is old shit, and it is shit.
I don’t go in for conspiracy theories, but I do buy into people behaving in accord with their class interests and norms. These aren’t Bond villains, but they do display a certain banality.
The contradiction never stops amazing me. The super-wealthy people making billions off oil and agriculture are promulgating a massive totalitarian plan that will require the shutting down of both.
https://www.c40.org/news/good-food-cities/
The Planetary Health Diet has next to zero meat.
There can't be 'natural societal change' when hugely wealthy and powerful vested interests are working to prevent it, regardless of the wishes of the electorate. They're using government power to maintain the status quo, other people can use government power to alter it.
Just pointing out that government would be totally within its powers to ban meat if it wanted to. Many states currently ban e.g. horse and dog meat, and some jurisdictions ban foie gras and fur coats. The same justifications for these lesser bans would apply to more comprehensive ones.
Legislation of morality is alone a sufficient reason. Just as liberals shouldn’t use courts to make end runs around conservatice conceptions of morality they disagree with, conservatives have no business using courts to make end runs around liberal conceptions of morality they disagree with. If anything, Dobbs adds additional constitutional justification for these laws.
In addition, health (less cancer, diabetes and heart disease) and safety/welfare (environment and climate change) considerations apply. All of of these justifications are disputed, but so what? A disputed rationale is plenty good enough for rational basis. It is the role of legislatures, not courts, to resolve the disputes.
"Just pointing out that government would be totally within its powers to ban meat if it wanted to."
As a formal matter, yes. And as an informal matter they'd have to be suicidal to do so.
Which is why all the caterwauling about the possibility above in this thread is so silly.
You act as if voting still matters.
Disaffected, antisocial, delusional right-wingers are deserving culture war casualties.
I drink beer, enjoy cheese, and love cured sausages. And tofu!
... but wont eat lab grown meat lmao.
smh.
We have been growing food in vats for thousands of years. Its just the next phase of human food engineering. Of course you will eat it. Because through the miracle of genetics, every piece will be a perfectly marbled NY Strip. Consistency, and no waste!
"And tofu!"
Not helping your argument mentioning tofu.
point is, your food is processed in vats, and has been for 5000+ years.
“We have been growing food in vats for thousands of years.”
And making often-lethal mistakes with it.
The Romans not understanding the interaction of acidic wine and the lead containers they stored it in comes to immediate mind, although I’ve also heard something about them using lead acetate to sweeten it. (Lead is sweet, it’s why children eat lead paint.)
A lot of things, including Emperor Nero, is explainable with lead poisoning...
Ever notice how all the canned/frozen lobster meat is from Canada?
Maine was already canning herring (sardines) and canned lobster became big business in the 19th Century. Except it wasn’t shipped frozen the way it is now, just canned, and lobster is a very difficult food to can safely — even today. And this was in the post Civil War era before anyone was regulating food safety.
Needless to say, they weren’t canning it safely, at least some people weren’t, and people were dying from what I’m told was “ptomaine poisoning” although we probably call it something else today. Maine, even then a tourist state worried about bad publicity, outright banned the canning of lobster.
It also didn’t help that there was no size limit, with lobstermen paid by the piece rather than the pound, and they nearly made lobsters extinct. (Today Maine has a minimum and maximum size, along with a lifetime ban on any female found with eggs (her tail is notched). But the bottom line is that a new food technology turned lethal.
In the 1980s, folks in the Canadian Province of New Brunswick came up with the process of first canning the lobster meat and then freezing it — shipping it frozen, and that’s a safe product. And as Maine lobsters are now being shipped to New Brunswick to be canned (and then imported), Maine may eliminate the ban at some point. But I digress.
This is why production and safety standards are so important. Also, controlled sustainable harvesting of natural resources.
Getting on the plane in LAX with my dreams and my Cardigan...(HT M. Cyrus)
Sticker on the Jetway wall warning that "Breathing Jet Exhaust may be harmful to children and other living things"
Which was great because otherwise I'd be going around breathing Jet Exhaust all day,
Frank
Chemtrails baby!
Yet pretty much the same kerosene was burned IN THE HOMES of people in the latter half of the 19th Century to provide light -- before gas or electric lights appeared. As a child, I grew up breathing it.
In my opinion, you've missed the biggest risk of this development - the loss of diversity. The blight that triggered the Irish Potato Famine did not affect all potatoes. It didn't even affect most of them. It did, however, affect the one varietal that was being mass-produced.
A similar blight could easily take down any production-scale "lab-grown" meat operation.
The protection from that risk is diversity. But the regulatory approval processes (that will be pushed by both sides of the aisle) will make it uneconomic to invest in that kind of diversity. We are much more likely to see an expanse of monoculture. Long term, that's a problem.
Labs are not potato farms.
A contaminated lab can be decontaminated and then restarted.
There isn't even an immune system involved vat-grown meat, so diversity is not an issue.
Unless you mean diversity of process, but that's a market forces thing.
Way to miss the point. When the virus/blight/whatever kills the varietal, it will inevitably spread. Decontaminate the facility all you like. That won’t get you your genetic feedstock back.
There is no varietal - this is all designed and manufactured, not grown.
Like worrying there's not enough variation in nylon.
You're right - it's exactly like worrying that there's not enough variation in nylon - if nylon were a complex biological product with millions of evolved predators seeking to exploit things exactly like it as a food source.
He's absolutely right. If you think bird flu is bad now, just wait until all meat comes from just a few (or less) cell strains.
The lack of an immune system would be the Promised Land for some newly emergent viral pathogen that has nothing to stop it hijacking the nucleus of the in culture cells.
The fact that every cow, pig, and chicken now is genetically diverse is the only that that protects our food supply.
Now if they can make me some lace marbled A5 Wagyu and Kurobata Pork at less than $100 a pound, maybe we'll talk. 😉
You’re too scared. Our “elites” would NEVER make decisions that could cause shortages of anything. They are far too wise for that to happen.
My favorite is still the baby formula shortage - not over sanitary conditions of production, but because of a dispute between American and European bureaucrats over labeling.
I know. Incredible.
Almost as bad is the current shortage of hospital beds caused by the shortage of nurses, etc to supervise them caused by the hospitals very noisily firing chunks of staff because those people were risking being transmitters of Covid by not taking a vaccine that ultimately proved to not stop transmission. Classic stepping on your own dick, although it’s us out here that are bearing the cost.
No significant numbers of nurses were fired.
David, two of my daughters are nurses. I know the boots on the ground stuff. The number of firings was enough that the workload that was redistributed to remaining staff went so far past the reasonable/safety line that a ton of vaccinated nurses said “this is bullshit and they don’t care about us anyway, look how they treated our friends” and left the profession.
Even hospital admins are privately saying now that they screwed up. And there’s no quick fix because those people that left ain’t ever coming back, so there’s no pool from which to replace.
Sorry, but this time you’re wrong.
Your anecdote is not data.
Your comments on this are uninformed and incorrect.
Your "Nuh-uh" is also not data.
The solution to this is to provide data and stop being childish -as you are insisting that he do so, why don't you provide yours?
Why didn't the Irish (and other Europeans) simply plant these other cultures of potatoes????
First, they didn't have other varietals available. The Irish Lumper was so dominant because, before the blight, it really was the best potato out there on many dimensions. Nobody wasted time or money on less-efficient crops.
Second, they didn't really understand that monoculture was the problem until it was far too late. When the Irish Lumper failed, people assumed (sometimes rightly but often wrongly) that other potatoes would suffer from the same disease.
The better question is why didn't they diversify back to grain products. Those were the staples as little as a century before. But again, not enough seed, not enough equipment and not enough awareness of the real cause. (Also, a series of political decisions during the crisis made everything worse rather than better.)
You are overlooking that Ireland continued to export both beef and grain during the Famine. The only crop that was monocultural was the staple crop of the poor Irish. It was essentially a genocidal policy of the U.K. government even if they didn't understand the blight.
Not enough land left that they were allowed to farm for their own consumption; Potatoes were the only thing productive enough to feed the Irish on the small amount of their own country's land the British allotted them for the purpose.
Most big agricluture is monoculture, crops are hugely vulnerable to disease, there's an eternal war to create new effective pesticides to keep them viable, which created a massively profitable industry with an interest in keeping them taht way. Certainly, the lab-meat industry should prioritise avoiding that mistake.
It is in the nature of new technologies to look better in prospect than they will become in practice. Such proposals are, after all, tailored to address already-felt needs. Initial consideration focuses tightly on which existing needs will be addressed, and the advantages to be had if they are.
Negative implications come along later, learned willy-nilly by experience. In proportion to the novelty of the technology, negative experiences to come are less likely to be accurately anticipated.
A proposal to manufacture meat in factories is an example of a startlingly novel technology. To do it on anything like a commercially significant scale seems certain to create both enormous demands for feedstocks, and profound (but utterly unpredictable) ecological implications.
For instance, pastoralism—the practice of raising livestock as an agricultural activity—has been a concomitant of human survival since time immemorial. Which means as well that it has been a concomitant of the broader non-agricultural ecological world familiar to humans during all of human history.
Generally, the ecological effects of pastoral practices have been taken for granted, unreflectively. To the extent that factory farming has displaced mixed farming, that disregard has only increased. The ecologists most in tune with those ecological issues were the now-vanishing cohorts of the pastoralists themselves.
To illustrate, consider the Sandhills of western Nebraska. Geologically, they are what you would get if you could put a few inches of rain per year on Saharan dune fields. Under a tenuous cover of prairie grass, the Sandhills are a Saharan-style desert of wind blown dunes, waiting to re-emerge and resume their march. In geologically recent times, that is exactly what they were, without the grass. They cover 20,000 square miles—an area a bit larger than Vermont and New Hampshire combined. They are the largest sand dune field in the Western Hemisphere.
Not that long ago, the Sandhills looked exactly like the Sahara. The dune topography remains vivid today. If you want to see it for yourself, do a Google search for Valentine, Nebraska, switch to the photographic view, and zoom until the scale bar reads 2 miles. Then pan southward, eastward, or westward.
Remarkably, the Sandhills are today almost exactly as they were when white settlers first came west, looking to homestead. Because they would not support crops, the Sandhills did not suffer so much environmental destruction as got inflicted around them. One big change was that the buffalo disappeared (indigenous tribes remain nearby). The buffalo got replaced by cattle. There are now more than a half-million cattle grazing the natural grasses of the Sandhills. No doubt those cattle deliver at least some ecologically critical services previously supplied by their bison predecessors. Whatever adaptations and species-supportive tasks large ruminant grazing delivered—for instance, in the way of dislodging seeds, treading them into the ground, fertilizing them with manure—the cattle now do. So the grasses survive, and with them every other species which is there now, but which could not live on blowing desert sand.
But of course no one understands completely the complexity of that kind of ecosystem. Countless species of other organisms, from mammals, to birds, to reptiles, to invertebrates, to microorganisms, interact with each other to make it possible for the grass to hold those dunes in place. Even fish show up, when depressions between the dunes sink low enough to tap an underlying aquifer.
Probably, no one could say for certain what would become of western Nebraska if the cattle were withdrawn, and the bison were not reintroduced. I doubt it is an experiment a wise ecologist would recommend. (A proposal to reverse course, and replace the cattle with bison would be rational; it ought to happen anyway. But given their wandering nature, large numbers of bison are hard to enclose.)
Thus, the Sandhills seem a conspicuous canary in whatever parts of the ecological coal mine depend on large ruminant grazing. How extensive may be dependence on similar ecological interactions elsewhere is a question. The answers are the kind of thing humans could discover to their surprise.
If for no other reasons than ecological ones, if industrial meat production turned out to be the final death knell of pastoralism, that would not be a prospect to treat with either insouciance or equanimity. Of course I get that it might prove possible in principle to promote industrial meat production as an ecological support—and so it might prove in practice—it would surely be touted that way.
To make it work would likely prove too complicated an ecological task for the blunt instruments available to public policy. A far wiser policy would weight future decisions against industrial agriculture generally, and thus against industrial meat production—and back toward more mixed farming and more pastoralism.
Absolutely loved that place when I drove through on the way to Wounded Knee and the Badlands. to quote Buzz Aldrin: "Magnificent Desolation".
Currentsitguy, if you drive through there at night, go slow. That, "desolation," teems with suicidal deer. They crouch near the roadside, waiting for you to get almost on top of them. Then they bolt to cross in front of you. If one jumps out a safe distance ahead, look out! There's probably another with more risk tolerance, waiting for you to get closer.
I'll keep that in mind since I think we're going back this summer.
Opinion: Upside Foods cultivated chicken https://youtu.be/kVGGq13CwtY
bears more resemblance to chicken than any McDonalds chicken nugget, ever.
change my mind. lol.
And your grandchildren will be eating it in their happy meal. Not because it tastes better (it might, but its a low bar for McNuggets**) or because of ethical concerns (although dont underestimate McDs virtue signaling) but because it can be made more cheaply (less water and energy) on cheap real estate in the desert.
**Fried in microbially produced peanut oil. And, anything tastes great fried.
If people can get over the pink sludge, they can probably come to terms with lab-meat.
Vat-grown meat? Sounds great. After it is brought to market, some may want to wait until a long track record of safety and health effects is established, maybe 10, 20, 30 years or more. Similar to how in the U.S., the typical practice was to prove the safety and efficacy of a vaccine over 10-15 years, until just recently for some reason.
Some will reject it even then, choosing instead to stick with what they view as "natural." Or simply lengthening the time frame concern issue, choosing to view what has been done for millennia as preferable to what has been done for decades, or maybe taking centuries to view it as proven.
Apparently all of Europe still rejects genetically modified crops, for goodness sake!! I see no reason for that, but there it is. Vat grown meat is a thousand times more exotic than changing a gene in a frickin corn stalk.
Glenn is right on his point, but it's more than that. Beyond mere distrust of current corporate industry, policymakers and authorities, there is an epistemological attitude toward knowledge and nature.
So anyway, I'm all for vat-grown meat, as long as the government does not force me to subsidize it, nor ban or impose disincentive costs of traditional meat. Unfortunately, those things aren't just some remote risk, they're a certainty and are already happening. Just so happens the "Most Read" link right below the comment box I am typing into reads: "E.U. Rules Will Force Dutch To Ban Livestock Farming."
'I see no reason for that,'
Corporate control of farmer's seeds is an excellent reason.
Corporate control of farmer's seeds is an excellent reason to ban genetically modified crops? Explain.
Does the ban help you have more corporate control or less? And how does it do that exactly?
Nobody has to use patented seeds. Some farms don't. And if they do, there is competition and choices in the marketplace. There are probably things that could be improved to increase competition and weaken IP rights though.
The actual reasons for the EU ban are (A) people are suspicious of new technologies and engineered plants, (B) European trade protectionism circumventing free trade pacts under the guise of safety concerns.
Does the ban help you have more corporate control or less? And how does it do that exactly?
I too look forward to an explanation of how reducing the options that farmers have helps them, consumers or anyone else (well, other than the companies that sell non-GMO seeds).
Because it's a way to make farmers increasingly dependant on the seeds from particular corporations who enforce patents and intellectual copyright, increasing indebtedness, and reducing biodiversity.
Honorable Harvest posits that some deer wish to be impaled by the hunters arrow.
Eugene is behind the curve on this one. Most of the country's, and the world's, cattle are rapidly being culled or sterilized on the basis of phony, made-up disease threats, in order to destroy the real meat industry. The real motivation for it is the same communist utopian nonsense as the other parts of Klaus Schwab's Great Reset. It is imperative that all his attempts to destroy normal life habits be stopped.