The Volokh Conspiracy
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Should "Loopholing" Be Protected By Qualified Immunity?
an argument about post-Bruen gun legislation from Robert Leider.
Over at his generally gun-related blog, Standing His Ground, Professor Robert Leider has two interesting blog posts about state reactions to the Supreme Court's decision in Bruen: some states are enacting or considering policies to broadly restrict the carrying of firearms in many public situations, notwithstanding Second Amendment doctrine.
In one post, Pretextually Eliminating the Right to Bear Arms through Gerrymandered Property Rules, Leider argues that some of these regimes are unconstitutional because of crucial exceptions that render them pretextual:
. . . [T]hese laws do not switch the property default rule for gun carrying by politically favored groups (e.g., retired and off-duty police). This shows that they are not actually making a generally applicable default rule that a person may not bring a gun onto another person's property without express consent. Instead, these laws target gun carry by one group only: civilians without prior law enforcement experience. . . . When asked where a gun permit holder could carry his firearm under the new law, Gov. Kathy Hochul (D-NY) forthrightly answered "probably some streets."
Because these laws are clearly a pretext, they are not a valid regulation of the right to bear arms.
In a second post (Should State Officials Receive Qualified Immunity for Creatively Resisting Bruen?), Leider confronts the even more interesting (to me) question of remedy:
[S]tates are counting on an asymmetry of legal liability. While gun owners face felony convictions for violating state laws, these states are betting that their employees will face much more lenient consequences. Although 42 U.S.C. § 1983 purports to give a tort cause of action for depriving someone of his constitutional rights, the Supreme Court has narrowed its effective application through qualified immunity. Qualified immunity shields government officials from civil liability "insofar as their conduct does not violate clearly established statutory or constitutional rights of which a reasonable person would have known." Qualified immunity "provides ample protection to all but the plainly incompetent or those who knowingly violate the law."
Leider argues that even if you accept the doctrine of qualified immunity, that it should not apply to deliberate "loopholing" behavior like this:
This loopholing behavior has none of the usual traits for which the Supreme Court permits qualified immunity. Most qualified immunity cases involve state actors engaged in legitimate policing, who make reasonable or negligent mistakes about the law. These mistakes, moreover, are often made by police in the heat of the moment, in difficult circumstances (e.g., while potentially under the threat of force). The Supreme Court has tried to shield officers from such liability for fear that it will chill them from vigorously performing their duties. In contrast, these states, through their combined regulations on sensitive places and private property, are intentionally trying to subvert Bruen's specific holding. These policies, moreover, are not split-second judgments made in the heat of the moment; states have pursued these laws after extensive deliberation. The Supreme Court has never said that qualified immunity protects state actors who intentionally seek to violate a recognized constitutional right simply because the legal artifice they employ has not been the subject of a prior court decision.
Of course, the doctrine of qualified immunity has been broadly criticized (by me among many others). But it is the doctrine. And if one looks at some of the best defenses of the doctrine, by folks like Scott Keller and Nathan Chapman, it is not at all clear that it extends to this kind of loopholing.
Anyway, for more, read both of Professor Leider's posts (1, 2).
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So, what do you think about the prospects of a future administration enforcing Section 242 of Title 18, "Conspiracy against rights under color of law" in this context?
Facially, it would seem a good fit.
The statute you cite, 18 U.S.C. § 242, is not a conspiracy statute. Did you perhaps mean § 241?
In any event, whether a state actor has fair warning sufficient to satisfy due process that conduct is criminalized by § 242 is essentially similar to whether the unlawfulness of such conduct is "clearly established" for purposes of damages liability under 42 U.S.C. § 1983. United States v. Lanier, 520 U.S. 259, 270-71 (1997).
Sorry, "deprivation", you're right. Though the conspiracy statute is also relevant to this question.
Isn't that another kind of immunity? Even if state legislators deliberate violate federal law, their votes can never be the subject of prosecution.
The Supreme Court in Lanier expressed due process concern about a prospective state actor defendant having fair warning of what conduct, which is alleged to violate another's constitutional rights, is prohibited. The Sixth Circuit, sitting en banc, had reversed Judge Lanier's convictions and dismissed the indictment for sexual harassment and assault of state judicial employees and litigants on the ground that the constitutional right in issue had not previously been identified by the Supreme Court in a case with fundamentally similar facts. SCOTUS deemed that standard to be too demanding, in that prior decisions of other courts can be considered in determining whether the accused had fair warning that his conduct is criminal.
Lanier does not afford anyone immunity from criminal prosecution. The Supreme Court remanded to the Sixth Circuit for further proceedings. As an interesting aside, the defendant absconded while released on recognizance, and the appeal was dismissed pursuant to the fugitive disentitlement doctrine. 123 F.3d 945 (6th Cir. 1997) He was apprehended in Mexico and sent to federal prison. https://www.nytimes.com/1997/10/15/us/former-judge-who-fled-law-is-captured.html
State officials are permitted to enforce a state statute, which has not been declared unconstitutional -- where probable cause to make an arrest under such statute -- unless and until a determination of unconstitutionality thereof is made. See, Michigan v. DeFillippo, 443 U.S. 31 (1979) (Contraband found in a search pursuant to arrest for violation of municipal ordinance was admissible in a drug prosecution, notwithstanding the ordinance being declared unconstitutional subsequent to the instant arrest).
Where a state statute authorizes prosecution, and such statute has not been declared unconstitutional, it would be well nigh impossible to prove that state officials enforcing the statute were acting "willfully" for purposes of 18 U.S.C. § 242.
Ah, but what we're discussing here are statutes that were enacted knowing that they were unconstitutional, in defiance of a Supreme court ruling. And whether they actually get that presumption of legality.
Good luck proving that defiance. Your certainty doesn't actually count as evidence of intent.
My certainty is a result of evidence of intent.
The NY statute set out to do exactly what the Bruen decision said wasn't permissible, in a case striking own an earlier NY statute.
The NJ statute got written copying the NY statute AFTER the NY statute had been enjoined as unconstitutional.
These aren't attempts to comply, they are open defiance.
Or, that's a false binary. They're attempts to see how far they can go, given a blurry line.
Weirdly, I didn't see you suggesting that everyone who enacted laws trying to throw up roadblocks to abortions in the 50 years of Roe/Casey should have been prosecuted. Legislators experimented. Parental consent, spousal consent, waiting periods, ultrasound requirements, TRAP laws, fetal heartbeat laws, late term abortion laws… Some of those passed muster and many did not. States were experimenting to see how far they could go. If it were criminal to do that, then once a Supreme Court decision on the constitution was handed down, it could never be modified because there would be no cases where standing could arise.
See post concerning "whataboutism".
Nope. I’m not saying, “If it was okay for abortion it’s okay for guns” (as California has done with its attempt to replicate Texas’s law). I’m saying, “Have you thought this through? How would the legal doctrine you propose to implement affect other situations?” That’s something courts do every day at oral argument.
Or, to put it another way: I am not accusing Brett of hypocrisy; I am accusing him of not thinking through his ideas.
Well, actually I did think about that, and I think that, as I say below, you could have done that if a challenge to Roe were as blatant as some of these laws are.
Now, why wasn't this attempted? In part because we never reached a social consensus that Roe was RIGHT. A pretty solid majority agrees that the 2nd amendment guarantees an individual right to own guns. See this poll shortly before Heller. Might disagree about the parameters, but that the right exists as an explicit constitutional right is very widely accepted.
You never had that kind of support for Roe being correct. Even a lot of people who supported it as policy thought that it was a lousy decision on legal grounds.
So using Title 18 on people enforcing abortion laws would have been insanely controversial, politically explosive. Anti-abortion states weren't extreme outliers, after all. It was half the country or more. By contrast you're only seeing this sort of open defiance of Bruen in a handful of states, it really is an outlier phenomenon.
But also because the anti-abortion forces weren't remotely this crude. They were chipping away at the edges. So making the case that the laws were grossly and obviously unconstitutional would have been hard.
It's much easier to make a case where the laws in question go out of their way to be obvious about what they're up to. In fact, in these states you've got a lot of law enforcement authorities saying flat out that they'll refuse to enforce these laws as contrary to their oaths to uphold the Constitution. Demonstrably, they know what's going on here.
That is some exceptionally stupid thinking from the clingerverse.
Most Americans support reasonable access to abortion, rejecting absolutists (who tend to be conservative).
Most Americans favor sensible gun safety laws, rejecting absolutists (who tend to be conservative).
This is how you lose (lost) a culture war, clingers.
A pretty solid majority agrees that the 2nd amendment guarantees an individual right to own guns.
OK. But the poll also shows that 49% thought gun laws should be more restrictive than they were (pre-Heller!), while only 11% thought they should be less restrictive.
Admittedly, "more restrictive" is a broad term, but this at least suggests that 49% saw no Constitutional problem with more restrictions. And the 38% who thought they should remain the same apparently saw no Constitutional problem with pre-Heller restrictions either.
So the popular view of what the 2nd Amendment allows is not as clear as you claim.
Consensus about the rightness of the Supreme Court is not the question.
We don't have consensus about the 2A if that's your question.
"...if a challenge to Roe were as blatant as some of these laws are."
The abortion restrictions passed subsequent to Justice Barrett joining the court were more blatantly violative of Roe and Casey than any of these gun control laws are violative of Bruen.
Roe was never an enumerated right.
The Right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Barring the bearing of arms over a large portion of public area, conflicts with the constitution.
Besides the fact the NY law actually doesn't accomplish anything, but infringes on an enumerated right.
You know, the Constitution doesn't really say enumerated rights are extra burly rights whose contours are super-duper clear all the time.
"OK. But the poll also shows that 49% thought gun laws should be more restrictive than they were (pre-Heller!), while only 11% thought they should be less restrictive."
Yeah, you tend to get that from people who, since they've never bought a gun, have no idea how restrictive the laws are already. Why would you care if somebody who doesn't know what the speed limit is on a road they haven't driven, thinks it should be lowered?
So when is a Supreme Court opinion OK to ignore, according to Brett? Well, if you don't have consensus. Which means a majority of support.
Though Brett gets to decide if the opinions of the majority are well informed first.
You're just finding more and more ways to argue your opinion should be the law of the land.
"Weirdly, I didn’t see you suggesting that everyone who enacted laws trying to throw up roadblocks to abortions in the 50 years of Roe/Casey should have been prosecuted."
I don't think legislators are liable under this statute, or even could be statutorily liable for legislative decisions. That goes for the legislators here, too.
But, yes, you could have brought a Title 18 case against anyone attempting to enforce those laws, if they were sufficiently open about defying Roe. Typically they chipped away at the edges.
This law doesn't chip away at the edges, it just openly defies Bruen.
>Good luck proving that defiance.
IDK. I'd be surprised if the sponsors, signors, etc. of the bill didn't brag about doing so. They're proud of it, not ashamed.
Putting aside your telepathy, no one here has offered such evidence.
Gov. Hochul, "I'm prepared to go back to muskets." That seems pretty defiant.
Absolute legislative immunity is absolute. The point of that is to avoid trials seeking to get a ruling from a factfinder as to what was in the minds of the legislators who voted for a bill. And the doctrine makes sense. How could the Legislature do its job if it had to be concerned that all who voted for a bill could be forced to take the stand to testify as to their good faith and be forced to hope that the factfinder would come to the correct decision?
I agree with the thesis that qualified immunity should not be available for state actors (such as the NY and NJ AG's) who have explicitly said they are trying to resist the Bruen decision.
E.g., they recognize that Bruen essentially held "you can't get around this by claiming that the bulk of the state is a 'sensitive place'" . . . but then they do exactly that. Why plaintiffs in the various NY and NJ test cases haven't at least attempted to assert claims for damages under 1983 has been a mystery to me.
While only nominal damages are likely available, punitive damages are available for 1983 violations. Smith v. Wade, 461 US 30, 56 (1983),
What I'd curious about is whether there is a 1985 action for conspiracy to deprive persons of the equal protection of the law.
Have they in fact said that?
Yes. For example, https://ag.ny.gov/press-release/2022/attorney-general-james-vows-protect-new-yorkers-wake-supreme-court-ruling
Exactly. Their immediate post-Bruen statements and those made during the legislative process cook their goose.
And I would make a considerable wager that discovery in a test case that made a 1983 claim for damages would yield tons of internal communications that would prove that the whole purpose of the exercise was indeed to evade Bruen (e.g., "we know this will likely get struck down, but it'll take years").
The Supreme Court made its decision, but the fight to protect American families from gun violence will march on. In the days to come, my office will be taking action to address the potential harm that this ruling may cause, and we will continue to defend the constitutionality of our state’s laws, as we’ve always done. We will work with the Governor and Legislature to amend our licensing statute that will continue to protect New Yorkers. I want to reassure all New Yorkers that our robust gun protection laws remain intact and we will be working with our partners in government to further strengthen them.
Make no mistake: This decision will not deter us from standing up to the gun lobby and their repeated efforts to endanger New Yorkers. I vow to use the full force of my office to protect New Yorkers and American families.
Weak. THIS is what resisting a Supreme Court ruling looks like:
If we can organize the Southern States for massive resistance to this order I think that in time the rest of the country will realize that racial integration is not going to be accepted in the South.
Much more direct! No need to read between the lines there!
And what makes you characterize that as them saying they will “resist” the decision, as opposed to their saying they will try to enforce the most restrictive gun policies that are consistent with the decision?
Most of it:
That's a promise to further restrain and violate gun rights, with echoes of the Andrew Jackson quote above.
Because they're bringing pre-enforcement challenges and therefore don't have any?
"Because these laws are clearly a pretext, they are not a valid regulation of the right to bear arms."
But this argument runs straight into a foundational legal principle that may, at first glance, sound laughable, but is well established and serves a purpose: The presumption that a legislature never intends to pass an unconstitutional law. And, in accordance with this presumption, the legislature never has "bad" (i.e. unlawful) intent. Such presumptions serve the purpose of keeping the judiciary from conflicting with the legislative (or executive) branches, a confrontation the judiciary usually loses. It also helps keep them, somewhat, out of the political 'fray' of name-calling, etc.
On a practical (or more "realistic") review, such presumptions are downright silly. Yet they server their function. For example, a court should (almost?) never impugn a legislature by finding that a statute was based on racial or ethnic animus, or that the legislature intentionally passed an unconstitutional law. Abortion and 2nd Amendment rights are mirror images of case where it certainly looks as though legislatures did (and still) intend to pass laws that are unconstitutional. The abortion battle, however, demonstrates that while the practice may "never happen" in the eyes of judges, it nonetheless works. A bevy of unconstitutional abortion laws helped change the constitution (or its interpretation, if you prefer). No doubt many are looking at Heller and thinking, "if they can overturn Roe...."
I am also reminded of a law school professor who used to say "If you need to say that something is 'clear', then it apparently isn't so clear or you would not need to say it." Some would argue that all this legislation is not really 'pretextual', but rather, in a sense, 'uninformed,' in that the law is not well enough developed or clarified by the courts yet. Thus, advocates for various positions jockey to 'test' the limits of the new legal interpretation.
As is often the case, the law is rarely as settled as those who support it would like. And the courts are often very intentionally blind to the machinations of the more political branches, in order to not have to deal with the consequences. Calling laws "pretextual" is dangerous for the judiciary. To paraphrase an old saying, "No law is ever pretextual, for if it passes none dare call it so."
An argument that uses clearly is already suspect. You gotta prove that pretext, chief!
But as for the more interesting discussion, I thought that legislators generally had complete immunity.
Is the qualified immunity applying to about those enforcing these allegedly pretextual laws?
The damages immunity afforded legislators for all acts taken in the sphere of legitimate legislative activity is absolute, not qualified, immunity. See, Tenney v. Breedlove, 341 U.S. 367 (1951).
Thought so. I called it complete immunity, not absolute. My legal jargon whithers as my federal agency jargon burgeons!
Who are we arguing against QI for? The legislators or the cop enforcing these laws. The former enjoy absolute immunity for legislative acts. As for cops, if there is an arguable Constitutional law, and he enforces it, that is what QI is for.
The governor and the AG are cops not legislators.
When they enforce the law, yes. Not when they propose legislation.
They will never lift QI for these political actions any more than they would for the similar political actions of passing anti-abortion laws while Roe v Wade was in force.
Politicians protect their own when push comes to shove.
Conservatives hate activist judges . . . until they don't.
Liberals like activist judges . . . until they don’t.
Bob you ignorant slut. . . .
NIce sound bite, but has nothing to do with QI, which is a court made invention. So the scope of PI is a proper subject of debate. (Though as I posted, the whole discussion seems of course to me.)
Sorry, the scope of QI.
This "loopholing" is immoral and unethical and should be illegal but I'm not sure that qualified immunity applies. I thought legislators had absolute immunity for the garbage laws they pass.
Yeah Rossami, I also thought that legislators have absolute immunity for their legislative actions. I don't see how it could be otherwise.
How much of the blame for this game of whack-a-mole laws falls on the Supreme Court?
Basically all of it.
Not only did they create
unqualified immunity themselves, they spent about 12 years after McDonald before they lifted a finger to correct lower courts that went on permitting 2nd amendment violations.They could have been a lot more aggressive in policing the lower courts. Even now they could be taking a lot more 2nd amendment cases for summary reversals, if they wanted to get the message across.
Fucking John Roberts…
The Great Equivocator?
The problem here, as is so often the case, is that one person’s pretextual loophole is another person’s legitimate policy.
I think courts should be careful not to treat those who have policy disagreements with them as being nefarious, and should not adopt a jurisprudence that depends on such an assumption.
The legitimacy of these types of rules should be assessed without regarding them as being somehow recalcitrant.
The problem here, as is so often the case, is that one person’s pretextual loophole is another person’s legitimate policy.
Just because someone might seem to believe their own bullshit doesn't mean that the rest of us...including the courts...have to believe it as well.
That's not how the Southern states got treated on voting rights, I recall. But that did take a statute.
How about a preclearance statute for gun laws?
I see you have moved from Courts taking pretext as read to legislators doing it instead.
There is no Section 5 for the 2A; it'd be new ground.
How to tell people you don't understand incorporation without saying it.
It'd be new ground.
Given the holding of MacDonald v. City of Chicago, does it matter that there is no Section 5 of the Second Amendment? The 2A applies to the states through the Due Process Clause of the 14th Amendment, and Section 5 permits Congress to enforce 14th Amendment rights (presumably including the RKBA).
Now, Congress hasn't really exercised that power, but subject to the limits of City of Boerne v. Flores, there isn't really a doubt that it has it, is there?
Exactly: Section 5 of the 14th amendment applies to ALL incorporated rights, because they are incorporated via the 14th amendment.
Incorporation includes judicial review; I don't think it's slam-dunk logic that it'd include the power to tailor enforcement legislation as a remedy as it does for EPC issues.
I don't know what "slam dunk logic" means, but the Supreme Court has assumed that anything in the 14th Amendment, including what it has held is "incorporated" there, is subject to Section 5.
Borne v. City of Flores concerned the power to enforce the Free Exercise Clause as incorporated through the 14th Am. No one disputed that Section 5 applied, the issue was whether what Congress did was within the Section 5 power.
Throughout the life of Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court ruled against arguments by zealots that opposition to abortion was irrational and animosity based. It repreatedly ruled that opposition to abortion has a rational basis and can be the basis of government policy in cases, such as funding decisions, where its constitutional rulings do not specifically prohibit them.
Opposition to guns today is no different constitutionally than opposition to abortion was during the period between Roe and Dobbs. It remains a rational basis for government policy. Government can legitimately base policy on it whenever not specifically required otherwise by the 2nd Amendment. It can, for example, use funding decisions to promote gun control, just as a state could, before Dobbs, use funding to promote abortion control. Just as states could enact abortion restrictions whenever permitted, they can enact gun restrictions whenever permitted. Testing the limits is entirely legitimate.
The court’s majority should restrain the zealots
and wingnuts on its flanks who think disagreement with them somehow represents nefariousness or irrational animosity,
The court’s majority should restrain the zealots
and wingnuts on its flanks who think disagreement with them somehow represents nefariousness or irrational animosity
Who (besides you) has said anything about irrational animosity? If members of a legislature intentionally ignore the supreme law(s) of the land in an attempt to deprive people of their civil rights, whether their animosity toward those rights is rational or not is irrelevant. And I while I don't favor such inflammatory language as part of the analysis, I have no problem at all labeling any such attempts to intentionally circumvent that supreme law in an attempt to deprive people of their established rights as being "nefarious".
Nobody tries to test the limits of things that aren’t there. The behavior Professor Baude is complaining about can’t be described as “ignoring.”
The behavior Professor Baude is complaining about can’t be described as “ignoring.”
It most certainly can.
"some states are enacting or considering policies to broadly restrict the carrying of firearms in many public situations, notwithstanding Second Amendment doctrine"
"Because these laws are clearly a pretext"
Do you know what those bolded words mean? Or are you just arguing that rather than using the word "ignoring" the phrase, "taking actions intentionally intended to circumvent" would have been more appropriate?
I have repeatedly said that states opposing gun rights are entirely within their rights to take actions intended to test the limits of, i.e. circumvent (in your words) , Bruin, just as states opposing abortion rights before Dobbs were fully entitled to take actions intended to test the limits of, i.e. circumvent, Roe v. Wade. States in both cases have an entirely rational basis for their policies, just one you (in the gun rights case) happen to disagree with.
Did you not understand what those words mean?
Using euphemisms like "test the limits of" when describing blatant disregard for civil rights isn't the clever argumentation tactic you think it is. The cases referred to in OP were not those of state legislatures using honest and/or legal means to pursue their goal. They're cases of those legislatures enacting (or attempting to enact) statutes that clearly fly in the face of the court's equally clear recognition of a constitutionally protected right.
The Court: "Americans have a constitutional right to do X."
The States in Question: "Let's pass a law crafted for the sole purpose of effectively eliminating the ability of our residents to legally exercise right X."
That's not "testing a limit". That's an attempt to prevent exercise of a right that they've been clearly told they can't prevent the exercise of.
The Supreme court allowing that the government could oppose abortion without it being considered animus, and that opposition to abortion could be a basis for government policy, was in a sense a back of the hand acknowledgement that abortion wasn't really a constitutional right.
The government can't have opposition to voting as a legitimate basis for policy, merely constrained by voting rights in the Constitution. It can't have opposition to religion or speech, or free assembly, as a legitimate basis for policy.
And it can't have opposition to gun ownership as a legitimate policy; Opposition to exercise of a constitutional right is definitionally illegitimate on the part of the government.
But that's the modern GOP: every voting proposal they make is about putting up roadblocks to voting. Some are permitted by the courts and some aren't.
You can set out to do other things, that have as a side effect reducing the number of people who vote. Saving money, instead of spending whatever it takes to maximize turnout. Securing the ballot against people who aren't legally entitled to vote, or protecting ballot privacy.
Reducing voting can be an effect, but it can't constitutionally be a goal.
Abortion is hardly the only example. Non-obscene porn is protected by the First Amendment. Yet government can do (and has done) many things to restrict or reduce it. Even when it has to act indirectly, as is often the case, it doesn’t have to hide its motives.
The right has most often been the beneficiary of the analytic gap between strict scrutiny and rational basis. The left is entitled to be the beneficiary for a change.
Reducing voting can be an effect, but it can’t constitutionally be a goal.
Ha, ha, ha.
Weren't you just complaining about pretext, and the private memos of NY officials wrt gun control, and what they would show?
What do you think the communications about voting restrictions would show?
Wait, are you under the impression that I think Republican officeholders are all that honest?
SO you agree that many of the recent restrictions on voting are in fact intended to reduce voting, rather than save money or improve security?
Glad to hear it.
I think it's more frequent in terms of redistricting, but, yeah, at least some of it is so motivated. It would be silly to deny it when some of them have been caught saying it out loud.
About as silly as denying that gun control laws are often motivated by hostility towards the right to keep and bear arms.
Now, when a state comes out with an 'anti-voting' law that's as in your face as your average gun control law, wake me. Because I don't think they've done that since Jim Crow went out of style. Most of what passes for "vote suppression" today is laughably mild compared to firehoses and police dogs, or even fake literacy tests.
Brett, your issue here is you're leaning on 'in your face' as a flag.
But that's just your own subjective appeal to incredulity, slightly painted over.
When asked to compare other similar lawmaking, it becomes quite clear how unmoored and aligned with your preferences this standard is.
every voting proposal they make is about putting up roadblocks to voting
It's getting to the point that you are incapable of hiding your partisan hackery behind that thin veil of pretending to be intellectually honest.
Throughout the life of Roe v. Wade, the Supreme Court ruled against arguments by zealots that opposition to abortion was irrational and animosity based.
The arguments weren't against abortion. They were for the life of a baby. Judges ignored the right to life.
"Instead, these laws target gun carry by one group only: civilians without prior law enforcement experience..."
Any law which criminalizes aspects of a constitutional right, but provides exceptions for cops/former cops/former military to be excluded should be considered illegal in the first place.
They aren't special snowflakes, and should not be granted more rights than the rest of us.
I don't think the intent is that they are snowflakes, but that they can be trusted to bear arms without doing something stupid or nefarious.
Which itself is the problem. These laws presume that anyone who wants a gun cannot be trusted, except for those like police or former police who can be.
I don’t think the intent is that they are snowflakes, but that they can be trusted to bear arms without doing something stupid or nefarious.
In other words, just making shit up?
We have the statistics. CCW permit holders are far more law abiding than, ex law enforcement. So why are legislators ignoring facts?
Yeah, that’s a problem in itself, if you read the news daily and look for stories of inappropriate, dangerous, or outrageous gun use, the overwhelming number of cases are going to be criminals (who’s gun use is unprotected) and cops. You find very few instances of legally carrying citizens abusing their privilege.
Would this even be a QI issue. QI only applies in suit against the individual officer. The laws seem to be a practice which could bring the municipality into it and they can't get QI. We certainly want officers to follow the law, which the constitution is paramount, but we don't want them to be their own lawyers second guessing everything. The issue to me here will be Monell and sovereign immunity and whether the municipalities can be held responsible
Harken back to the era when school zone enhancements for drug crimes basically blanketed the community. The talking point was that dealing by a school should warrant a penalty enhancement. But in reality, it was an across-the-board enhancement for many urban areas. That at least implicates equal protection and unusual punishment concerns (which have moved only a few policymakers).
https://reason.com/2017/12/18/the-myth-of-the-playground-pus/
I get it--Second Amendment rights are sacrosanct on this blog. But they aren't less fundamental than Fourth Amendment rights, and SCOTUS says pretexts are fine for stopping a vehicle, e.g.
I just wanted to remind everyone that in other areas of the law, pretextual approaches to Constitutional rights haven't bothered the pro-law-enforcement faction much at all.
There's no constitutional right to deal drugs.
But they aren’t less fundamental than Fourth Amendment rights, and SCOTUS says pretexts are fine for stopping a vehicle
How exactly do you think 4A is implicated when merely stopping a vehicle? I'm also wondering what you think sentencing enhancements for drug crimes have to do with this issue.
Stopping a vehicle is a seizure of the vehicle, its contents, and of course the occupants. The Fourth Amendment protects against unreasonable searches and seizures.
If I were a trial judge, I believe I would be bound by precedent to let New York and New Jersey law enforcement officials get away with it. If I were a Supreme Court justice, I would send them to the guillotine. What do you mean, I can't do that in a civil suit? If I were a Supreme Court justice, I would send their bank accounts to the guillotine.
Isn't thete something called legislative immunity?
I have a question to supporters of Professor Baude’s position.
If New York’s law is really as blatantly unconstitutional as people here are making it out to be, why did the Supreme Court stay the injunction on it and let it remain in effect pending appeal?
It seems to me that’s at least some evidence that the matter is at least arguably debatable, the boundaries of the Bruin mandate at least somewhat unclear, and things just aren’t as obvious as people are making them out to be. Maybe these boundary-testing laws aren’t quite as slam-dunk no-qualified-immunity rock-solid unconstitutional as people here are claiming.
It appears you’re remaining consistent with regard to your policy on jumping to conclusions and issuing commentary without bothering to read what it is you’re pontificating on. Pay extra attention the bolded (by me) part at the end:
“The New York law at issue in this application presents novel and serious questions under both the First and the Second Amendments. The District Court found, in a thorough opinion, that the applicants were likely to succeed on a number of their claims, and it issued a preliminary injunction as to twelve provisions of the challenged law. With one exception, the Second Circuit issued a stay of the injunction in full, and in doing so did not provide any explanation for its ruling. App. to Emergency Application 2. In parallel cases presenting related issues, the Second Circuit has likewise issued unreasoned summary stay orders, but in those cases it has ordered expedited briefing. See, e.g., Order in Hardaway v. Nigrelli, No. 22–2933 (CA2, Dec. 7, 2022), ECF Doc. 53; Order in Christian v. Nigrelli, No. 22– 2987 (CA2, Dec. 12, 2022), ECF Doc. 40.
I understand the Court’s denial today to reflect respect for the Second Circuit’s procedures in managing its own docket, rather than expressing any view on the merits of the case. Applicants should not be deterred by today’s order from again seeking relief if the Second Circuit does not, within a reasonable time, provide an explanation for its stay order or expedite consideration of the appeal.“
Let me clue you onto something. When the court speaks, and not just a justice or two making a side comment that they couldn’t get anybody else to buy into, it’s “we,” not “I.”
As if you had anything resembling a clue (BTW, the phrase is "clue you into").
Just for once, have the balls to admit that you did what you always do in these threads...rush to comment without bothering to read or understand what you're commenting on.
Surely you aren't claiming a lack of intellectual humility among commenters here. That would be crazy!
Meanwhile in Illinois:
https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/rick-moran/2023/01/15/at-least-80-illinois-county-sheriffs-will-refuse-to-enforce-states-new-gun-laws-n1661912
Some states authorize the legislature to impeach substandard public officials. These sheriffs could apt candidates for removal.
Or, better Americans could simply wait for these hayseeds to be replaced, with every other conservative.
80 out of 102 Sheriff's is a sizeable majority of elected officials saying the law is unconstitutional. These are also officials that would be directly affected by enforcing unconstitutional law. That consensus in law enforcement should also call into question any QI for the few remaining law enforcement officials that support this.
"just following orders" went out with Nuremburg.
What about the ATF's "new" pistol regulations?
The administration itself is part of the massive resistance. And the Court blowing off that bump stock ban emboldened regulatory attacks on the 2nd amendment.
The Jackson quote is misleading, the federal government wasn't a party to the case, the state of Georgia was, and at that time Georgia 's militia was larger and better armed than the Federal army.
Jackson was right to rule out federal military enforcement of the decision.
Completely different era and completely different balance of power between feds and states.