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Eleventh Circuit Quashes Trump Effort to Block Federal Government Access to Mar-a-Lago Documents
In a brief and forceful opinion, a unanimous court explains why the trial court never had jurisdiction to consider Trump's filings in the first place.
Today, a unanimous three-judge panel of the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit concluded that the District Court Judge Aileen Cannon never had jurisdiction to block the federal government's access to documents seized at Mar-a-Lago or to appoint a special master to oversee document review. This outcome is not a surprise. The Eleventh CIrcuit previously stayed one of Judge Cannon's orders after which the Supreme Court refused to intervene. The oral argument also made the weakness of Trump's case crystal clear.
The relatively brief per curiam opinion in Trump v. United States, on behalf of Chief Judge Pryor and Judges Grant and Brasher, is direct and to-the-point, and should put an end to Trump's efforts to obstruct the federal government's investigation of his retention and alleged mishandling of classified documents and other materials that belong to the federal government.
The opinion begins:
This appeal requires us to consider whether the district court had jurisdiction to block the United States from using lawfully seized records in a criminal investigation. The answer is no. . . .
Exercises of equitable jurisdiction—which the district court invoked here—should be "exceptional" and "anomalous." Hunsucker v. Phinney, 497 F.2d
29, 32 (5th Cir. 1974).1 Our precedents have limited this jurisdiction with a four-factor test. Richey v. Smith, 515 F.2d 1239, 1243–44 (5th Cir. 1975). Plaintiff's jurisdictional arguments fail all four factors.In considering these arguments, we are faced with a choice: apply our usual test; drastically expand the availability of equitable jurisdiction for every subject of a search warrant; or carve out an unprecedented exception in our law for former presidents. We choose the first option. So the case must be dismissed.
The Court did not think much of the former President's arguments.
Only the narrowest of circumstances permit a district court to invoke equitable jurisdiction. Such decisions "must be exercised with caution and restraint," as equitable jurisdiction is appropriate only in "exceptional cases where equity demands intervention." In re $67,470, 901 F.2d 1540, 1544 (11th Cir. 1990); see also Hunsucker, 497 F.2d at 32. This is not one of them. . . .
When we examine Plaintiff's arguments about the Richey factors, we notice a recurring theme. He makes arguments that—if consistently applied—would allow any subject of a search warrant to invoke a federal court's equitable jurisdiction. That understanding of Richey would make equitable jurisdiction not extraordinary, "but instead quite ordinary." United States v. Search of Law Office, Residence, and Storage Unit Alan Brown, 341 F.3d 404, 415 (5th Cir. 2003) (quotation omitted). Our precedents consistently reject this approach. We have emphasized again and again that equitable jurisdiction exists only in response to the most callous disregard of constitutional rights, and even then only if other factors make it clear that judicial oversight is absolutely necessary. . . .
Plaintiff's alternative framing of his grievance is that he needs a special master and an injunction to protect documents that he designated as personal under the Presidential Records Act. But as we have said, the status of a document as personal or presidential does not alter the authority of the government to seize it under a warrant supported by probable cause; search warrants authorize the seizure of personal records as a matter of course. The Department of Justice has the documents because they were seized with a search warrant, not because of their status under the Presidential Records Act. So Plaintiff's suggestion that "whether the Government is entitled to retain some or all the seized documents has not been determined by any court" is incorrect. The magistrate judge decided that issue when approving the warrant. To the extent that the categorization of these documents has legal relevance in future proceedings, the issue can be raised at that time.
All these arguments are a sideshow. The real question that guides our analysis is this—adequate remedy for what? The answer is the same as it was in Chapman: "No weight can be assigned to this factor because [Plaintiff] did not assert that any rights had been violated, i.e., that there has been a callous disregard for his constitutional rights or that a substantial interest in property is jeopardized." 559 F.2d at 407. If there has been no constitutional violation—much less a serious one—then there is no harm to be remediated in the first place. This factor also weighs against exercising equitable jurisdiction. . . .
Only one possible justification for equitable jurisdiction remains: that Plaintiff is a former President of the United States. It is indeed extraordinary for a warrant to be executed at the home of a former president—but not in a way that affects our legal analysis or otherwise gives the judiciary license to interfere in an ongoing investigation. The Richey test has been in place for nearly fifty years; its limits apply no matter who the government is investigating. To create a special exception here would defy our Nation's foundational principle that our law applies "to all, without regard to numbers, wealth, or rank." State of Georgia v. Brailsford, 3 U.S. (3 Dall.) 1, 4 (1794).
The court concludes:
The law is clear. We cannot write a rule that allows any subject of a search warrant to block government investigations after the execution of the warrant. Nor can we write a rule that allows only former presidents to do so. Either approach would be a radical reordering of our caselaw limiting the federal courts' involvement in criminal investigations. And both would violate bedrock separation-of-powers limitations. Accordingly, we agree with the government that the district court improperly exercised equitable jurisdiction, and that dismissal of the entire proceeding is required.
The district court improperly exercised equitable jurisdiction in this case. For that reason, we VACATE the September 5 order on appeal and REMAND with instructions for the district court to DISMISS the underlying civil action.
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So, will Trump try an appeal to the SC? Is there any basis for the SC to consider this ?
Asking for a friend.
Yes. No.
(Said this in the open thread, but it bears repeating)
Lol at this paragraph:
“The next day—August 27—the district court issued an order declaring “its preliminary intent to appoint a special master” and requiring the government to provide Plaintiff with a more detailed list of seized items. The court stated that it had jurisdiction pursuant to the court’s “inherent authority” and Federal Rule of Civil Procedure 53(b)(1), which reads: “Before appointing a master, the court must give the parties notice and an opportunity to be heard. Any party may suggest candidates for appointment.”
Maybe it was a typo and she meant 53(a)(1), which actually outlines when a court can appoint a master (this doesn’t help her either btw). But just quoting the actual rule she cited and ending the paragraph without ever doing any further explanation of why that makes no sense is amazing.
Here’s Cannon’s original order
https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763/gov.uscourts.flsd.618763.29.0.pdf
It is worth emphasizing further that Cannon's egregious behavior began with her announcing her intent to do what Trump asked, before the DOJ had even submitted a response brief.
She has no business being a judge if she's going to form any decisions on the merits of a case before both sides have been heard.
Yeah. It’s not even that the basic decision was bad (it was obviously). But she was really going out of her way to help Trump. I think the only time she didn’t was when she picked Dearie to be the special master instead of an open political hack. And she later interfered in his work when it turned out he was appropriately skeptical of Team Trump’s position.
Ironically, Judge Dearie is one of two candidates Team Trump recommended to be designated as Special Master. Judge Loose Cannon likely believed she was doing Trump's bidding by appointing him.
Interestingly, Team Trump learned from the Durham investigation, that when sitting on the FISA court, Judge Dearie expressed substantial disapproval of some of the bullshit in some of the FBI's FISA Carter Page warrant application (specifically, the part for which an FBI lawyer was convicted of a crime).
With that MAGA tie-in and using Trumpster logic, they figured he must be harboring a long-simmering grudge against the FBI, so would welcome a chance for revenge.
So, in their submission of two alternatives, they submitted one no-way-in-hell political MAGA lawyer (whose wife is an 11th Circuit Court of Appeals judge), and the well-qualified Judge Dearie.
Poor dearies, they were incapable of dreaming that Judge Dearie disapproved not of the FBI, but of the Bullshit.
Now taking bets on how quickly Trump's motion for cert is declined without comment by the S.Ct.
Will they even demand a response from DOJ? Can DOJ waive a response to a stay application (which I assume is what Trump will file). There is nothing the DOJ can say better than the 11th circuit’s opinion.
I believe the S.Ct. didn't request a DOJ response before dismissing appeal of the 11th Cir’s prior ruling related to the 100ish docs bearing classification markings.
Trump would not demand a stay, in that there is no order to be stayed. He might request reinstatement of the District Court order by SCOTUS pending filing and disposition of a cert petition, but that would require five votes.
No I think it would be a stay of the 11th circuit’s mandate to vacate.
Joe Biden better get ready for every piece of paper he possesses after his term to be seized. Goose/Gander. Banana Republic here we come. Holding that a President or former President is entitled to no legal status above any common criminal is both wrong and crazy. There are institutional and governmental interests here that the Court ignores at our peril.
Ah yes, Latin American Banana Republics were famous for not giving special privileges to their leaders.
Won't be relevant or even be possible if Biden complies with the Presidential Records Act, and all responsive papers are already in the possession of the National Archives.
Trump only got searched because he appears to have pruposefully hidden docs from a lawful subpoena. And then lied about it to the FBI.
Why do I doubt that's likely to be Biden's M.O.?
The Trump cult adamantly refuses to discuss Trump's refusal to comply with the grand jury subpoena and the fraudulent certification on June 3 that all responsive documents had been produced. That is the smoking gun regarding 18 U.S.C. §§ 1519 and 2071.
You're a lawyer. Do you have any legal issues with the holding here, or just going to wallow in revenge fantasies?
He sincerely thinks our legal structure demands the doctrine of “Donald Trump is a special boy with special rules”
Holding that a President or former President is entitled to no legal status above any common criminal is both wrong and crazy.
Holding that a former president is entitled to no legal status above any other citizen who is the object of a validly sworn and executed search warrant is both correct and rational.
But I guess to you neo-monarchist types, Trump is different.
A) the soon to be former president takes with him records he considers his personal property as he leaves the white house.
B) person who is not the former president steals official records that were destined for the national archives.
Is there really no difference here?
At least this guy, who is actually the Bizarro Patrick Henry, is honest: he doesn't think that Trump is innocent; he just thinks that Trump should get special privileges that other criminals don't get.
If Joe Biden steals government documents and refuses to give them back, knock yourselves out.
"Holding that a President or former President is entitled to no legal status above any common criminal is both wrong and crazy."
Let me be brief: No. H-e-double-hockey-sticks no.
Biden will just put everything on a laptop belonging to his son. The DOJ and the national archives will do their best to ignore it.
If he was trying to hide something, that wouldn't help, it would just add to his troubles. Giving copies of classified material to un-authorized people is a no-no.
Hillary and the congressional Democrats begs to differ on that account.
Let me be the first to say that Trump did not commit suicide after he was arrested.
You don't live in a political thriller, DB.
You are right. My life is boring. Boring is good. I've had enough excitement.
As for Trump. It could not happened to a more deserving guy.
First of all, like Epstein, Turnip is a man (biologically anyway, allegedly) of great privilege. A man (biologically…) who has enjoyed the best the world has to offer his entire life. And a man (biologically…) who has acted with impunity and without consequence, again, his entire life.
Second, such people do not accept having all of that taken away with any amount of grace. This makes such people who are in such circumstances prime candidates for suicide. But Turnip is a coward and far too ego-driven to seriously contemplate suicide. No, his death in jail will derive from the depression and rage over his imprisonment, which likely results in his already poor health deteriorating rapidly.
Otoh, he will be king of the various white supremacists he encounters in federal lock-up so he may actually end up enjoying his last years behind bars…
Ignore norms at your own peril. And suffer the consequences. When something has never been done before, there is usually a reason. The reason former President's have been accommodated by present President's throughout our history is for just this reason. Tit for tat is bad for continuity and stability. Stability is a virtue, which Biden is forsaking for what????? For his own personal or political advantage??? Support this short-sighted reasoning if you will. I am just pointing out the likely consequences. Ford was right to pardon Nixon. Gore was right to concede the 2000 election. Lincoln was right to grant conciliation to the South. The hyper-partisan mental midgets on this blog choose to be and think small. You are not thinkers. You are smart a$$ adolescents.
The reason it’s unprecedented is past presidents tended to be law-abiding. Except for the guy who got his tapes seized.
We have the copy of the letter written and signed by Obama, to the National Archives, explaining all of NA Obama documents are in a wharehouse in Chicago, awaiting transfer to digital files. Including Classified Documents.
For some reason it is OK for Dems to poses classified documents.
As for the PRA, the decision as to what it personal, and what is a Presidential record, is at the discretion of the President.
"...and when the facts and the law are against you, pound on the table!"
Why do you people lie like this? Is it for fun? Are you paid by Trump? Or are you actually so stupid/gullible that you believe this, even though even the right wing loon publications eventually admitted that wasn't true?
That is neither true nor relevant.
https://www.worldtribune.com/letter-documents-obama-foundation-stored-classified-documents-in-unsecured-warehouse/
Find portions of the document here . It explains the payment made by Obama to the NA to support the transport of classified and unclassified documents to the Chicago wharehouse
You can go ahead and explain exactly who has the constitutional power to overturn the decision of the President deciding something is personal, or covered under the PRA
I second the curiosity why do you bother to keep lying about this?
https://www.archives.gov/press/press-releases/2022/nr22-001
From the NA’s Sep. 23, 2022 press release:
(Emphasis added)
What part of the actual facts do you not understand? And can you grok how that description is fundamentally different from the way Trump did not give presidential docs to the NA, failed to abide by a lawful subpoena, and then lied about it to the FBI?
Repeating the same tired lies does not speak well to your credibility or honesty. Shame on you.
That does not contradict that Obama has classified documents.
Control is a nebulous concept to prove. Govt agents lying for Democrats is now the norm.
That is some truly weak-sauce weaseling out of your contention that Obama is somehow in possession of presidential and/or confidential docs, as evidenced by the funding letter you like to wave around like a bloody shirt.
That the Chicago warehouse is a NA facility, owned and controlled by NA, and that properly holds classified materials in an appropriate facility, is fatal to your repeated lies about what the NA archive is and isn’t. Period, full stop, game over.
Pulling a “but it doesn’t disprove something else!” out of your posterior is also truly lame.
Why are you even bothering?
I can safely promise that you'll never see a substantive comment from him.
He is one of 'those' people who believe what they want in spite of the facts proving otherwise.
You're a total retard, iowa. That letter is about Obama offering to pay for documents to be moved from a temporary National Archives storage location to a permanent National Archives storage location. He was being nice.
The fact that you are so stupid not to understand how much you're doing to prove Obama's wonderful character compared to Trump's criminal nature really makes me laugh. Keep it up, iowatoodumb!
"The reason it’s unprecedented is past presidents tended to be law-abiding. Except for the guy who got his tapes seized."
Well, Reagan and Bush I got away with Iran-Contra.
George W Bush got away with fabricating intelligence to justify a war, but I guess the huge world-shaking crimes committed while in office really are exempt.
This has never been done before, and the reason is that we've never had a President quite like Trump.
I agree with you that within certain boundaries there are good reasons to leave former presidents alone. But it's not unlimited; I would hope you would agree with me that if Trump really did shoot someone on Fifth Avenue, he should be prosecuted for it, even if his base promptly erupted with outrage, as it would. And the question is where to draw that line. At what point does the conduct of a President (or former President) become so egregious that the scale tips and the cost of *not* prosecuting him becomes too great for our system to endure.
I think we're past that, and Trump's behavior has been so egregious that the justice system simply cannot turn a blind eye to it. I respect reasonable minds on the other side who think that line has not been crossed and Trump should not be prosecuted.
Trump is sui generis. We've never had a president encourage a mob to take over the Capitol building to maintain power after an election loss. We've never had a president call state election officials and encourage them to commit election fraud. We've never had a president tell his vice president to overturn the results of an election. And we've never had a president take with him highly classified materials, the leakage of which could be devastating to our national security, and leave them out in the open for guests to peruse. This has simply never happened before. Steps need to be taken to ensure that it never happens again. And if that means jailing a former president for the first time in our history, then so be it.
There is NO evidence of highly classified documents at President Trumps personal home. You rely on partisan leaks, not evidence. Again, you willfully ignore the much larger institutional harms. The norms have been swatted away for what, exactly??? Subpoenas would have been sufficient and would allow for judicial oversight. DOJ used a warrant for just this reason. There is a whole mess of reaping the whirlwind coming. As an American, I see this as a Greek tragedy. Entirely avoidable, yet inevitable due to hubris.
DOJ used a warrant because Trump failed to comply with a previous subpoena. Had it not been a former president, on these facts they very well might have not bothered with a subpoena and just gotten a warrant in the first place. Ask anyone here who has experience dealing with the DOJ; they'll tell you I'm right.
You won’t like hearing this, Mr. Ghost, but of course there is evidence. Just because no one has decided to show it to you doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. But don’t worry, the indictment will be coming soon and the whole sordid story will become so public that even you will have to move from the State of Denial into the real world.
Ghost will then bleat about persecution, selective prosecution, Benghazi, Whitewater, etc.
There will never be an indictment. That would be the first time the overly broad Search Warrant can be challenged. All the "evidence" is lost, hence no crime.
Care to put your money where your mouth is?
How is the search warrant overbroad? How does it fail to particularly describe the place to be searched, and the things to be seized?
In the alternative, assuming arguendo the existence of an overbreadth problem, how would Trump be entitled to suppression in light of the good faith exception to the exclusionary rule created in United States v. Leon, 468 U.S. 897 (1984)?
I'm guessing the over-broadness consists of the " as well as any other containers/boxes that are collectively stored or found together with the aforementioned documents and containers/boxes; " part. Which allowed them to take anything found in any room where they found anything relevant to the warrant.
Sure. And? That's the opposite of overbroad. It describes with particularity the places to be searched and the things to be seized.
No, it described with some generality the places to be searched, and added a catchall to the things to be seized that you could drive a truck through.
You clearly have no idea what warrant's restrictions are to keep it from being overbroad.
But that won't stop you from believing with great certainty that you do!
No, Brett. It described with particularity the places to be searched: rooms used for storage and rooms used by Trump and/or his staff. That's far more specific than most warrants; if the cops want to search your house for cocaine, the warrant doesn't typically itemize the rooms in your house that they can search.
There was no "catchall." There was a documents with classification markings, and things stored with those documents. And also other government documents. Again, at least as specific as every other warrant ever issued.
I'm not going to agree that "everything in the same room" is fairly described as "particularity". You're depriving "particularity" of any meaning.
Good thing that’s not what the warrant said, then.
Maybe you’d like to review the warrant and cite the actual language you believe is objectionable? Handwaving about stuff you pull out of your posterior doesn’t cut it in Federal court.
The smaller problem is that he doesn't know what the warrant says, but only what OAN tells him it says.
The larger problem is that he doesn’t know how warrants work, but thinks he does. He reads something and thinks, "How dare they do this to Donald Trump?" (or Michael Flynn, or whoever the RW victim/loon of the week is), not understanding that these people are not being persecuted, but are being treated as well or better than anyone else.
He has no idea what a warrant normally looks like. So this fits his idea of what's overbroad rather than the legal standard for what's overbroad.
Just curious, a question to two for those with criminal law insight. If anyone but Trump had lied about keeping a stash of stolen compartmented information, and a search found that stuff, wouldn't that other person have been arrested the same day? If there were evidence that person had conspired to obstruct justice, would he be released on bail to convenience doing more of that?
Tell me,
Was there ever a topic here that you actually educated yourself on before commenting? In this case, it's quite clear that you have no idea what has transpired at all.
“That would be the first time the overly broad Search Warrant can be challenged.”
…yes, Team Trump did not challenge the warrant in the civil suit they filed, in a court lacking jurisdiction.
A subject of an investigation often challenges a search warrant they consider overly broad…in the court of jurisdiction, the one that issued the warrant. If they lose, they can then appeal that loss to a higher court. If the win, the challenged evidence is inadmissible.
The 11th Circuit Court of Appeals panel observed that Trump did not take this fundamental first step, instead bringing a civil action in an unrelated court, and never provided a reasonable explanation of why that was the appropriate court.
So, 11th CCA bench-slapped, hard, plaintiff Trump, his attorneys, and District Court Judge Aileen Cannon for what was very nearly frivolous filings and what was certainly frivolous legal logic:
Ghost,
The modifier "highly" has nothing to do with the matter. Even if the document were merely marked "Confidential" the offense of possessing the documents and refusing to surrender them would be the same.
Yep, even low-level classification markings were responsive to the subpoena Trump received .. and ignored while hiding responsive documents .. and then lied to the FBI about.
There’s no “Aha! Gotcha! The warrant only sooper-sekretly applies to ‘highly’ classified docs” defense to be had here. There’s … just not.
I agree that Trump should have adhered to the norm of not trying to steal presidential records after leaving office, and it does seem he is in the process of suffering the consequences.
But you don't care about the consequences for the Country. Your partisanship blinds you, and you like it that way.
I care about the consequences for the country, which is why I think Trump should be criminally prosecuted.
+1,000,000.
Then get ready for Biden and maybe Obama to be criminally prosecuted. Show me the man and I will show you the crime.
I heard a rumor you’re a lawyer. Recall that statues of limitation exist; blathering on about Obama is nonsensical unless you can identify an exception to the standard 5yr Federal SoL.
Decisions whether to prosecute are made by professional prosecutors, not partisan hacks, and they have in the past disappointed both Democrats and Republicans, sometimes by bringing charges and sometimes by not bringing charges. (I am personally disappointed, for example, that Matt Gaetz is not looking at jail time, but the decision not to prosecute him was made by the Merrick Garland Justice Department.) The idea that once there's a new administration, it will immediately start prosecuting everyone on the other side is nonsense.
DOJ is filled with partisan hacks. The Russia collusion hoax and the McCabe texts (among otger evidence) prove that. You can't get more partisan hack than Andrew Weisman.
And whom do you believe to have been unjustly prosecuted as a result of the "Russian collusion hoax", the McCabe texts, or Andrew Weisman? I will agree that Andrew McCabe didn't exactly cover himself with glory, but I'm not aware of anyone who went to jail because of it.
The process is the punishment. You know this, right?
The only "Russia collusion hoax" is the notion that it was a hoax. Were there random politicians and people on Twitter who got ahead of their skis and made claims that couldn't be supported? Of course. Was Trump the victim of a witch hunt not predicated on any evidence other than something Hillary wasted money paying a researcher to make up¹? Of course not. There was loads of evidence to prompt an investigation, and there was loads of dirt dug up during that investigation. Again, none of it proved the most extreme claims some people made, but it did not remotely come up empty.
¹Seriously, this never made any sense. Why pay hundreds of thousands to Fusion GPS to hire Christopher Steele to produce research if it's all going to be fabricated? Just hire an intern from a college creative writing program and pay them minimum wage.
With any luck, the consequences will include never having Trump ever serve in any elected or appointed position anywhere.
Well, 18 U.S. Code § 2071(b) states that one convicted thereof shall forfeit his office and be disqualified from holding any office under the United States. I doubt, though, that that disqualification can constitutionally be applied to the office of president in light of U.S. Term Limits, Inc. v. Thornton, 514 U.S. 779 (1995).
So the country should be held hostage by a minority of Americans who think that Trump is above the law?
‘If you don’t treat Trump nice, Republicans will be forced to act like children!’
Your norms are fundamentally anti-American, putting certain people above others at law.
Your predictions sound a lot like threats. But your threats are basically lame childish tantrums.
It never ceases to amaze me at how often conservatives seem to describe themselves as reactionary automatons who lack agency and are only compelled to action by “the left.” In a way they have lower opinions of themselves than anyone on the center or the left does of them.
I agree that Trump should have adhered to the norm of not trying to steal presidential records after leaving office, and it does seem he is in the process of suffering the consequences.
The President has plenary power to declassify anything, AND determine what is Personal vs PRA material.
He has neither. But in any case, there's no evidence he even attempted to exercise either "power."
In particular, he only has power to declassify National Security Information that is governed by an EO. He may not declassify information deemed classified by explicit legislation.
Ignore norms at your own peril said in FAVOR of Trump?
You didn't wake up yesterday, you know what a hypocrite this argument makes you.
The law is also clear that the 2nd Amendment means what it says, and the law was also clear that the Due Process Clause protected procedural processes, not substantive rights. But if that doesn't matter, neither should this.
You can't understand other people disagreeing with your conservative jurisprudence, and so you want to tear down the legal establishment.
Meh, join the club.
It's not a legitimate disagreement.
I wonder if anyone has ever suffered as many court losses -- at all levels -- as Donald Trump has.
Yes, Joe Biden has suffered more losses at all levels. 🙂
No? Pretty sure trump has been involved in way more personal litigation than Biden. He was famously litigious as a private business owner. I mean, people forget this happened, but Trump was headed towards a fraud trial on TrumpU before the election. And he has to settle after losing a summary judgment motion on the main claims. And he lost literally all his election suits. He also lost his weird suit against Clinton and the DNC. Etc etc.
Also, he lost the election.
That sounds like the classic definition of a loser.
Trump is no trouble that he has not created for himself. He has courted the potential consequences and will deserve what he gets.
Question: What ever could he have had to gain by his taking the documents in the first place?
Absolutely nothing to gain, absent an intention to show the secrets to others for some purpose. Whatever purpose it could have been, they are all crimes.
But are they all really "losses"?
A significant part of his strategy is to delay via endless litigation. For instance, he bought almost four months with this LOLSuit. Other cases he's managed to kick the can down the road for literally years. It might not be "winning" but perhaps "losing" isn't the right word either.
"lawfully seized"
Well that does seem to be in question doesn't it. The FBI illegally seized medical records and passports among many other items.
The documents you mention have been or are being returned to Trump. The government will likely not seek to introduce medical records and passports in any prosecution of Trump, so where's the harm?
Moreover, the intermingling of personal documents and materials with classified document markings is probative of Trump's control of and dominion over the searched premises, bringing the seizure within the ambit of the search warrant. Glenn Kirchner explains: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWb7itW4i-I
"The government will likely not seek to introduce medical records and passports in any prosecution of Trump, so where’s the harm?"
By this reasoning, the 4th amendment should have simply prohibited use of the results of unwarranted searches, rather than prohibiting the searches themselves.
Really, what would be the problem with the government putting TV cameras in our bedrooms, so long as it's not likely to use the resulting videos in a legal proceeding? Maybe because they're privacy violations?
Also, you DO know that parallel construction is a thing, right?
No, it's not in question. They did not illegally seize medical records or passports. They legally seized them.
That feeling in your head? That's cognitive dissonance.
If the FBI did legally seized them then why has it had to return them?
“Had to return them”
Had to? Or chose to?
Hey, look on the bright side; trump says the “medial records” show him to be “an absolutely perfect physical specimen”
Jfc, the stupid it hurts.
Any legitimately personal docs that were intermingled with classified, top secret, or any other docs were scooped up. And yes, that’s legal and exactly how it’s done.
Then, as the fbi sorted through what they took they separated out any legitimately personal docs and returned them. They did this because that’s what happens with personal docs that get scooped up with the classified, et al., docs the government was looking for. Had Turnip kept his personal docs and the docs he stole separate, the fbi would never have taken any personal docs.
And no, I do not expect you to understand or accept any of that and I will not respond to any stupid or moronic or shitheaded follow-up questions you will likely have.
Sigh. Do you not understand how a criminal investigation works? A warrant authorizes you to seize documents and things belonging to someone else that might be evidence of guilt. So you do that. After you seize them, you review them. You decide that some of the documents or things that you seized are irrelevant and don't prove anything. So you return them to the suspect, because they belong to him. This is all routine.
That has nothing to do with whether you had the right to seize them in the first place. You did; the warrant authorized it.
I'm a bit confused. We know that Republican Nixon's attempt to prevent the publication of damning information inappropriately marked classified by Democrat Johnson and Democrat Kennedy was wrongful; that is, information misclassified by Democrat wrongdoers seeking to conceal their own guilt cannot be sustained as classified by a Republican successor, as doing so would deprive the public of its right to know of Democrats' misdeeds.
So, assuming Biden fails to do so himself, the next president must fully disclose all of the (for example) CoViD documents and Hunter Biden documents and Hillary Clinton documents and whatnot, as doing so would deprive the public of its right to know Democrats' misdeeds, right? Likewise, Biden cannot declassify what was _properly_ classified by the previous executive, right? Or does a sitting President enjoy throughout his term -- right up until the last second of it -- the right to classify and declassify documents as he deems appropriate?
I'm just trying to make sure I'm thinking like a Clintonite. Everyone knows how important the meaning of the word is is, so it's important to be absolutely clear: at present, we know of only three presidents (Democrats Kennedy, Johnson, and Clinton) who have wrongfully attempted to conceal stained little blue dresses... but there may be more.
So, I continue to agree both with the prevailing opinion of the Court and with Oscar Wilde; that is, "quando dio vuole castigarci ci manda quello che desideriamo."
“I’m just trying to make sure I’m thinking like a Clintonite.”
Yeah, well, you failed. You’re still just being a dumbass.
[Some kidding aside, we must recall that President L. Johnson retained and used classified documents to write his memoir. The "norm" is that presidents routinely declassify (or rather classify to themselves) and retain for personal use a variety of once-classified documents. One issue tacitly before the Court is that an Obama-era executive order attempted to illegalize the norm: can the executive order of one president bind all subsequent presidents? Another issue tacitly before the Court is the tenure of office: recalling among other things President Carter's final-day decision to relieve a subordinate blocking hostage negotiations, does a President truly retain his authority until the moment his successor is sworn?]
"does a President truly retain his authority until the moment his successor is sworn?"
Yup.
A second issue is that there’s no evidence that Trump actually did declassify any of the documents at issue, and indeed has conspicuously failed to assert that he did, even when doing so would have been advantageous to him. A third is that the crimes for which he appears to be under investigation don’t actually depend on anything being classified.
That understates it. He didn't merely "fail" to assert that he did; he refused to assert that he did. Dearie told him to, and he said, "No, we're not going to do that."
Right, and before Trump's response to Judge Dearie's directive was due, Judge Loose Cannon stepped in and said fuhgeddaboudit.
He hasn't been charged with any crime that would allow him an opportunity of offer a defense. Why would any person start talking to the prosecutors before you know what crime is charged?
The simple fact, The President is only bound by the Rules the President creates for himself. Concerning declassification. The President is not bound by any procedure, Obama's EO establishing procedures, ends with exemptions to the President and Vice President.
The simple fact, The President is only bound by the Rules the President creates for himself.
No, that's a king. Easy mistake to make for Trump supporters!
"No, that’s a king."
A cute answer, short and to the point.
Why wasn’t this done?
The same reason VP Biden didnt wear trunks, swimming infront of female SS agents tasked with his protection
Its not a requirement.
A second issue is that there’s no evidence that Trump actually did declassify
The President not required to document declassification.
I’m fine with the idea he can declassify spur of the moment for necessity by, crazily, “thinking about it.” But I would expect him to order an aid to bring filled out forms to sign as soon as practical.
Why wasn’t this done?
But he’s required to document it.
"Required", you keep using the word wrong.
Yeah, he is.
Think for one moment — just one — about how stupid your position is. The government wants to prosecute some random CIA employee for leaking classified information, or wants to fire an NSA employee for mishandling it. If your theory were true, they would be unable to do so because there's a chance the president had actually declassified the information without telling anyone about it!
If you mean that the president isn't required to fill out a specific government form in order to do so, fine. But he's required to document it.
Squirm all you want.
No one has showed exactly who has the power to refute the statement of the President concerning declassification, or status of Personal vs PRA. Name that entity.
You cant. That entity does not exist.
Nobody has to refute Trump's non-claim, because he can't prove he did what he lied about doing in the first place.
Notably - and you'll appreciate this since you used the word 'squirm,' Trump did exactly that in every legal filing he made regarding your belief that he declassified anything.
He did not state even ONCE in his legal responses the claim that you are suckling with all your might.
Why? Because it's perjury. Because it's a lie.
Furthermore, the President is not entitled to classify documents as personal versus Presidential in plain defiance of the statute's language.
You're going to whine "Yes he is. Why not?" And people will respond that 1) because the law itself proscribes what will be considered personal versus Presidential and 2) you're an idiot.
If you mean that the president isn’t required to fill out a specific government form in order to do so, fine. But he’s required to document it.
Actually, I would say that something isn't declassified until it is documented that it is. Can someone with the unrestricted authority to fire an employee terminate their employment just by thinking about it? Saying "You're fired!" to an empty room? Imagine this scenario:
Boss: "Hey, I fired that guy 8 months ago, make him give back all the pay he got since then!"
Company lawyer: "Okay, well, did he get a letter saying he was fired 8 months ago?"
Boss: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you send a memo to payroll or HR saying he was fired?"
Boss: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you tell anyone that he was fired?"
Boss: "No, but I could fire him whenever I wanted, so if I say I fired him 8 months ago, then that is what happened!"
Lawyer:
"Yes, sir. I'll get right on making sure we get the money back.""Sir, no one is going to allow us to take his pay back if you can't prove that he was fired 8 months ago."Boss: "..."
Again, even if you want to take the extreme position that anything was declassified the instant the Trump thought about doing it—Trump hasn't even claimed that he did that.
Yes, it almost the “If a tree falls in the forest with no one to hear it, does it make a sound?” argument.
The difference? “If a tree doesn’t fall in the forest with no one to hear it, does it make a sound?”
'The President not required to document declassification.'
Tough shit trying to prove he did it, then.
What the Democrats don't realize is that a future Republican administration is going to do the exact same things to them.
And not just Biden, but Obama and both Clintons.
I mean, bragging that Democrats don't understand that Republicans are going to act in retaliatory bad faith seems like a weird argument, but okay.
Doesn't seem that weird. They didn't seem to understand that getting rid of some judicial filibusters would lead to the Republicans getting rid of the rest. They didn't seem to understand that breaking the 230 plus year norm that the minority gets to pick their own members for committees meant that they wouldn't be able to pick their own committee members the next time they lost the House.
So it's not weird to suggest that they wouldn't understand that siccing the Justice department on political enemies, including the previous President, would mean that they'd get the Justice department in their faces, too.
I’m sure Hilary Clinton is quite familiar with malicious showboating hearings and investigations by Republicans. The distinction between there being absolutely no question that Trump had the documents and refused to give them back and hoping Hilary Clinton gets investigated for being Hilary Clinton in retaliation is, as usual, lost on you.
Yes, we all know the pattern of assuming bad faith in the other side to rationalize bad faith in your own.
It's not weird coming from the right anymore, but it should be!
You're a fucking traitorous prick. I hope you get pancreatic cancer.
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but isn't the frequency of your forced user name changes increasing?
Forced by whom?
You misunderstand me. I'm not saying it's weird to think that Republicans will undertake retaliatory actions in bad faith. I'm saying it's weird to
(a) brag about that; and
(b) think that Democrats aren't already aware of that.
If the Republicans retaliate in any way that doesn't involve mass extermination, they're failing themselves and their country.
Hey look. A new sociopath. Or perhaps an old one. Guess we'll see if he starts typing out graphic descriptions of anal sex.
I sometimes wonder why that person indulges his fantasies here instead of pr0nhub, but I'm not going to kink shame.
I love mute.
Why did Democrats remove the filibuster for nominees (other than for the Supreme Court) when they did during Obama's second term?
Why did Democrats vote to remove MTG and Paul Gosar from committees? (With 11 Republicans joining the Democrats in the case of Greene, and 2 doing so for Gosar)
Why is the Justice Department being 'sicced' on Trump?
I suppose if any Democrats do things similar to what Republicans had done that drew Democrats to respond in that way, then it would be reasonable to assume that Republicans would respond in kind.
If, on the other hand, Republicans respond in kind without bothering with any justification, and do so just because they can, then things look a bit different, don't they?
Nobody is questioning that Democrats typically have motives for taking long standing norms and trashing them. Typically motives that would have been shared by norm non-trashing predecessors, sure, but motives.
What's being questioned here is the Democratic tendency to assume that payback won't be a bitch.
What’s being questioned here is the Democratic tendency to assume that payback won’t be a bitch.
No, you are asking that question. You are skipping over and not answering my question about whether the "payback" is really occurring on even grounds.
This whole thing is rather like baseball. A guy on your team was hit by a pitch, so you think it is "payback" for your pitcher to plunk one of theirs. But that doesn't even seem reasonable as retaliation unless you are justified in believing that your guy was hit deliberately. You know, like the other team was offended by how he flipped his bat or jogged too slowly around the bases after a home run. But if you have no legitimate reason to conclude that it was anything but an accident, then the batter getting 1st base is all your team should get out of it. Certainly not an excuse to hit one of their batters on purpose.
So, what is it with those situations you mentioned and I asked about? Is what Republicans did in the past or are promising when they take over the House really the same as what Democrats did?
My favorite bit about this stupid ass “threat” you morons keep making is it ignores literally everything about what has happened, what can happen, the law, Congress’s authorities… everything. Lit-er-al-ly ev-ery-thing.
But I can’t wait for all the false equivalence and screams of double-standards flying around when some shithead like Gaetz tries to get Ashley Biden’s tax returns and gets shot down in court instead.
"false equivalence"
Interesting that you then provide an indisputable example. Thanks!
"We cannot write a rule that allows any subject of a search warrant to block government investigations after the execution of the warrant. Nor can we write a rule that allows only former presidents to do so."
How about a rule that search warrants have to be issued by judges. I mean, real judges, not fake ones?
This is the one issue the Supreme court might take interest in: That the warrant wasn't actually issued by an Article 3 judge.
How about a rule that search warrants have to be issued by judges. I mean, real judges, not fake ones?
That would still be asking higher federal courts, even SCOTUS, to settle whether magistrate judges are "real judges" that can issue warrants just because of this particular case. That is, it happened to Trump, so that is why we need to deal with it! It is hard not to see that as just another attempt at special pleading.
Realistically, it’s more a matter of asking the higher federal courts, even SCOTUS, to settle it despite this particular case being about Trump. The involvement of Trump seems to make the courts less likely to entertain possibly valid arguments, not more.
I was just pointing out that there actually is at least one legitimate legal argument here that might gain the Court’s interest. It’s not ALL cut and dried.
Oh, and people were questioning the legitimacy of magistrate "judges" well before Trump ran afoul of one.
There is nothing to "settle," Brett. There is no controversy here.
Your argument's not with me, David. It's with Philip Hamburger, "the Maurice and Hilda Friedman professor of law at Columbia Law School".
Who is not a 4th amendment scholar, and who published this not in a law review, but in The Federalist. And who cited — as I mentioned — nothing to support his position.
Your argument (and his) isn't with me, but with the Supreme Court, and American history.
Are you a 4th Amendment scholar or in fact a scholar of anything except your own inflated opinion of your knowledge?
Please point us to your scholarly publications.
You don't need to be a Fourth Amendment scholar to figure out that Brett and Hamburger's position is wrong because literally everyone in the legal community who isn't a crank knows that there is no requirement under either Article III or the Fourth Amendment for life tenured judges to sign search warrants
There’s not even a textual requirement that 4th Amd. language of “no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation” even has to involve an Article III person in any capacity whatsoever.
It’s good practice and a smart separation of powers structure to require that the Exec branch get warrant from the Judicial branch. I see no reason to alter the present practice, including ability of Magistrate judges to issue warrants.
But show me in the text of the 4th Amd. why the Exec branch couldn’t [hypothetically] designate a “warrant official” to receive oaths/affirmations and use that as the basis for a constitutionally-compliant warrant. Arguing that the 4th Amd. somehow requires a life-tenure Art. III judge is about as untethered from history and practice.
The Supreme Court has said — as I noted — that warrants must be issued by "neutral and detached" magistrates. So it can't be the Attorney General or something like that. But as you say, there is nothing remotely in there that it says it has to be an Article III judge. Indeed, Hamburger admits that, but hopes that dumb people like Brett — his real audience, which is why this is published in The Federalist rather than in a law review or an amicus brief — won't notice:
So, in other words, not only need it not be a federal Article III judge, but it need not be a federal judge of any sort, or even a judge at all. (Justices of the peace are not.)
And it makes no sense to say that a magistrate judge — a "real judge," Brett, even if not an Article III one — can't do it because he doesn't have lifetime tenure, but a justice of the peace, elected or appointed for a short term, can.
Phillip Hamburger is a complete crank/bad faith hack who thinks that all state public school systems violate the United States Constitution. You can't trust him on anything.
If you can find something he wrote about this prior to the search at Mar-a-Lago, then maybe it wouldn't look so much like it was about Trump.
One way to tell that neither you nor Hamburger have any idea what you're talking about is that you keep referring to U.S. Magistrate judges as not "real" judges. Unfortunately for you, they are in fact real judges just like Bankruptcy Judges, Court of Claims Judges, Tax Court Judges, etc. The federal judiciary, the executive branch, Congress, every practicing lawyer and other participants in the legal system all understand this. If we're deciding who is a real judge and the sides of the debate are: literally the entire legal system vs. what occurs in Brett and Hamburger's head, guess which one wins. And to further illustrate the point I 100% guarantee that whenever Hamburger is at a conference or a talk or social event that a U.S. Magistrate Judge is at he will refer to them as "judge."
As you have been told repeatedly in response to your latest Dunning-Krugerism:
(1) there is no such rule;
(2) there has never been such a rule; and
(3) there is no basis for such a rule.
The requirement is that a warrant be issued by a neutral and detached magistrate. Not that it be issued by a judge, let alone an Article III judge.
That you found some article somewhere (The Federalist; LOL) that provides no citations of any sort for any of its assertions but that happens to support your priors just shows how not to do legal research.
How about a rule that search warrants have to be issued by judges. I mean, real judges, not fake ones?
Brett, once again, an issue is not really a thing just because YOU think it is.
You're wrong; everyone who has been to lawschool here thinks your wrong (except maybe that insane Ghost guy), and continuing to make that argument as though it will find any purchase just once again reveals the light solipsism in which you live.
Do you have a factual basis to assert, as fact, that I am insane? Seems defamatory to me. Care to retract? We disagree, but I do not assert, without evidence, that you are insane. You are, however, clearly a leftist hack.
Lighten up, Francis.
That's rich coming from you.
"Seems defamatory to me."
LOL. Well maybe you're not insane, but you certainly don't know what defamation is.
The nine current justices being moderately intelligent lawyers with at least a superficial grasp of American legal history, there is a zero percent chance.
Congratulations on finding an argument even Trump's team was too dumb to pursue.
United States Magistrates are real judges, having been created by Congress pursuant to Article I, Section 8, Clause 9: [The Congress shall have Power . . . ] To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court.
For that matter, U.S. District Courts and Courts of Appeals are created by Congress. Do you contend that, as inferior courts not specifically mentioned in Article III, District Courts are not authorized to issue search warrants?
The result here is legally correct. It is also distubring. All you need is a Magistrate Judge to sign off on a warrant -- an ex parte proceeding that is more often than not a rubber stamp -- and the government can seize anything it wants, including privileged documents. And while the government might )or might not) have a hard time using them at trial later, in the meantime they provide the government with valuable, and possibly privileged, information to use against its target.
I have been before many Magistrate Judges in my career (all of on civil matters), and, to put it mildly, it's a mixed bag. Some are smart and conscientious, others are biased or just plain intellectually limited (nine syllables to say "dumb.") I can think of one Magistrate Judge I was before whom I would not trust to decide whether to have chocolate or vanilla ice cream.
And please spare me the "that's the way it's always done" argument. What has been done here is par for the course, but it is ripe for abuse.* IIRC, one of the raids (not at Mar-a-Lago) was of an attorney's office and files. So everyone is fine with taking an attorney's privileged files for a government investigation, with no oversight as to what may or may not be privileged?
__________________
*In some courts, they have a magistrate's calendar, and each week a different magistrate handles warrants and other criminal matters, like arraignments. Now if you are an AUSA and have an iffy warrant, you look at the calendar. Judge X is on this week, she is known to scrutinize warrants carefully and sometimes denies parts. Judge Y rubber stamps what we want. To whom do you think the AUSA will bring it?
The result here is legally correct. It is also disturbing.
All you need is a Magistrate Judge to sign off on a warrant — an ex parte proceeding that is more often than not a rubber stamp — and the government can seize anything it wants, including privileged documents.
How is this news to you?
Who says it is?
Disturbing carries connotations of novelty.
If it's just you want the system to reform, fine. You seem like you're going well beyond special pleading for Trump.
What kind of reforms would you want to see? Because judges can rubber stamp just as easily as magistrates!
Will bet $20 you've never considered the fairness of the warrant process at either the state or federal levels until Trump came along.
One, you would lose the bet. Two, your argument is pure ad hominem and adds nothing other than making you feel good about your own snark.
I'm not so sure I would. I mean your example of abuse is literally another Trump thing. If you had thought about this before Trump you would have had another example ready to go.
So what's your proposal for an improved system? Take Trump out of the equation. What do you suggest as a general matter; what are your ideas that can be practically implemented nationwide, at both state and Federal levels?
But if your panties are in a bunch because the generally applicable rules that have be the norm since, oh, approximately 1787 have "suddenly" and "unfairly" been applied to someone you like, maybe you don't actually have a significant problem with the generally applicable rules.
I couldn't disagree more with your assessment of magistrate judges. Before I retired I appeared before dozens of magistrates in the Southern and Eastern Districts of New York, the Eastern and Middle Districts of Pennsylvania, and the three vicinages in the District of New Jersey. Without exception, every one of them was knowledgeable, wise, and helpful in resolving legal issues and disputes.
Concur, the ones I worked with on a regular basis in two years of clerking, and the ones I've appeared before since then, have all been uniformly excellent lawyers and judges.
That said, don't underestimate the ability of extremists at either end of the political spectrum to cherry-pick outliers (they do exist, even if rare) and turn them into "but [the system] is ripe for abuse" bleating.
I'm not sure what your proposal is here, but of course searches of attorneys' offices are the canonical justification for a special master. Are you suggesting that there should be a special master in every case?
When Judge Loose Cannon looks for her next crop of clerks, she ought to recruit at Yale for the students Judge Ho (make your own jokes) won't touch.
Judge Ho (make your own jokes)
Really? Have we descended that low?
Please explain to me why this decision does not wipe out any ability to challenge violations of 4th amendment rights outside a criminal context ?
Because this case wasn’t about challenging a 4th amendment violation in the first place.
One can challenge such a violation by moving to suppress in a criminal prosecution. Or one can challenge such a violation by bringing a 1983 action for state actors or a Bivens action for federal actors.
“Bivens action for federal actors.”
Well, we’ll see how long that lasts. But for now this is correct.
Biden brags about extorting the Ukrainian government to fire a prosecutor investigating a company employing his son...nothing to see here...move along.
Laws only apply to Republicans and other non-elites.
Yeah, it sucks the stuff you make up doesn't stick to Biden.
Notably, that is not a truthful recounting of the facts.
“Republicans and other non-elites”
Feckin’ hilarious.
The claim Biden’s pressure on Proescutor Shokin was about Hunter has some problems. Let’s list a few:
1. Obama ordered Biden to demand Shokin’s ouster. 2. It was official White House policy Shokin be fired. 3. It was official State Department policy he go. 4. A bipartisan group of Senators wrote a letter demanding it. 5. The US Ambassador to Ukraine gave a speech demanding it.
6. The EU also demanded Shokin be fired. 7. The World Bank demanded Shokin be fired. 8. The IMF demanded Shokin’s firing. 9. The European Bank of Reconstruction & Development demanded he go. 10. Every anti-corruption group in Ukraine demanded he go 11. There were street protests in Kyiv against Shokin alone. 12. After he was fired, the Kyiv Post said he was one of the most hated men in Ukraine
Ideas? What do ideas have to do with any of this?
So, he was threatening the global elite money laundering scheme. And he was fired by order of foreign governments, especiallyby ours. Got it. And Hunter Biden still got millions for no expertise and no work, while he was a drug addict.
Have you discussed the efficacy of your medications with your doctor recently? Might be time to increase the dosage.
Just say "Jews"; it won't make you look any more crazy, but it will save you a lot of electrons.