The Volokh Conspiracy
Mostly law professors | Sometimes contrarian | Often libertarian | Always independent
Nationalism, not Hostility Towards Elites, is the Main Divide Between Libertarians and the "New Right"
Despite Tyler Cowen's argument for the elite theory, the real divisions have much more to do with the New Right's nationalism.
In a much-discussed recent Marginal Revolution post, my George Mason University colleague, economist Tyler Cowen, argues that the main factor that divides "classical liberals" and the "New Right" is attitudes towards elites. In my view, by contrast, other factors are far more significant - most notably nationalism.
Where Cowen uses the term "classical liberal," I prefer "libertarian" to denote the view that government power must be tightly constrained in both the "economic" and social spheres in order to protect liberty and expand human welfare. "New Right" is an even more fuzzy term than "classical liberal" or "libertarian." But, in this context, I think it refers to the main strands of the Trump-era conservative right, particularly "national conservatism."
Here's Cowen:
A common version of the standard classical liberal view stresses the benefits of capitalism, democracy, civil liberties, free trade (with national security exceptions), and a generally cosmopolitan outlook, which in turn brings sympathy for immigration. The role of government is to provide basic public goods, such as national defense, a non-exorbitant safety net, and protection against pandemics.
In the classical liberal view, elites usually fall short of what we would like. They end up captured by some mix of special interest groups and poorly informed voters. There is thus a certain disillusionment with democratic government, while recognizing it is the best of available alternatives and far superior to autocracy for basic civil liberties.
That said, classical liberals do not consider the elites to be totally hopeless. After all, someone has to steer the ship and to this day we do indeed have a ship to steer. Most elites are intelligent and also they are as well-meaning as the rest of us, even if the bureaucratic nature of politics hinders their performance. We can entrust them with supplying basic public goods, and indeed we have little choice…..
In the classical liberal view, the great failing of elites is that they do not keep society as free as it ought to be.
The New Right thinkers are far more skeptical of elites. They are more likely to see elites as evil and pernicious, and sometimes they (implicitly) see these evil elites as competent enough to actually wreck society. The classical liberals see checks and balances as strong enough to limit the worst outcomes, whereas the New Right sees ideological conformity and indeed collusion within the Establishment. Checks and balances are a paper tiger.
Once you start seeing elites as so bad and also so collusive, many other changes in your views might follow. You might become more skeptical about free speech, because you view it as a recipe for putting a lot of power in the hands of (often Democratic-led) major tech companies. And is there de facto free speech if a conservative sociologist cannot get hired at Yale? You also might become more skeptical about immigration, not because you are racist (though of course there are racists), but because you see it as a plot of the Democratic Party to remake America in a new image and with a new set of voters ("you will not replace us!"). Free trade becomes seen as a line peddled by the elite, and that is an elite unconcerned with the social and national security costs of a deindustrialized America. Globalization more generally becomes a failed project of the previous elite.
In the Unpopulist, Robert Tracinski correctly points out that the New Right isn't actually interested in limiting the power of elites. To the contrary, they're happy to grant elites vast discretionary authority, so long as those elites are on the right side of the political spectrum:
To the extent populists have a legitimate complaint against those with power and influence, they have no solution. Their one-sided obsession with the supposed corruption of the elites leads to the toleration of even worse corruption by new, "populist" elites.
Worse, by using these claims as an attack against liberal institutions, the populists are actively insulating their own champions from scrutiny and accountability.
According to the populist, the only way to confront the bogeyman of "the establishment" is to fight fire with fire, abusing government power on the behalf of one's own side in order to counter abuses of power by the elites. This was proclaimed from the stage at a recent conference of nationalist conservatives, where the message, according to American Conservative's Rod Dreher, a fan of Hungarian strongman Viktor Orban, was that "we on the right have got to get comfortable using state power to achieve conservative ends."
This comfort with elite influence is reflected in such elements of New Right thought as their support for very broad executive power (which necessarily empowers the president and his elite subordinates), their backing of "industrial policy" (which simultaneously empowers elites in both government and politically influential private industries), and much else.
Of course, many New Rightists do genuinely hate and fear left-wing and centrist political elites. But in that respect, they are little different from adherents of various other ideologies. As Tracinski notes, the political left also has a long history of hostility to rival elites, such as wealthy businessmen and socially conservative religious leaders.
For that matter, I think Cowen understates the extent of libertarian/classical liberal hostility to various elites. It's true that most libertarians don't regard political elites as "totally hopeless" and believe those elites might have some useful function. But most of us also believe that elite power should be much more tightly constrained than is presently the case, which is one reason why we favor radical reductions in the power of government. In one sense, libertarians are actually more anti-elitist than New Rightists. Instead of seeking to replace one set of overmighty elites with another, we advocate severe restrictions on the power of government, regardless of which elites happen to be in power at the time.
With the possible exception of anarchists, libertarians do not propose to dispense with political elites entirely. But the same is even more true of New Rightists.
If anti-elitism is not the main factor dividing libertarians from the New Right, what is? I would suggest it is the conflict between the cosmopolitanism of the former and the nationalism of the latter. As Cowen notes, libertarianism (or classical liberalism) is a cosmopolitan worldview committed to liberty and equal rights for all, regardless of background. That includes a commitment to free trade and free migration, among other things. By contrast, the New Right - especially in its "national conservative" manifestation - are exactly the opposite. They are European-style ethno-nationalists who view foreign cultures and people with suspicion, often descending into xenophobia.
It is no accident that protectionism and severe restrictions on immigration are their signature policies. And Donald Trump's border wall project is perhaps their most symbolically resonant initiative.
In his farewell speech, Ronald Reagan - the iconic representative of the previously dominant form of conservatism - praised immigration and envisioned America as a "shining city" that should be "open to anyone with the will and the heart to get here." It is virtually impossible to imagine any New Right leader saying anything like that. In contrast to Reagan's emphasis on mutually beneficial openness, today's New Rightists hold a largely zero-sum view of the world in which foreign goods, people, and cultures are objects of suspicion and fear.
This cultural insecurity also leads them to be willing to use state power to suppress what they regard as domestic cultural threats, as well. Thus we get speech restrictions such as Florida's "Stop Woke Law" and moral panics over things like "drag queen story hours," which many New Rightists would also like to suppress by force.
In his classic 1960 essay, "Why I am Not a Conservative," F.A. Hayek wrote that "strident nationalism," partly rooted in what he called "the conservative distrust of the new and the strange," often "provides the bridge from conservatism to collectivism." This is a prescient description of the New Right (as well as a critique of the right-wing nationalists of Hayek's own day). Their combination of nationalism and fear of cultural change leads them to favor massive use of state power.
That, in turn, puts them at odds with libertarians to a greater extent than Reagan-era conservatives were. The latter differed with libertarians on various issues, and were certainly far more socially conservative than we are. But they still had considerable commitment to universal liberal principles, and were therefore less xenophobic and less statist than today's ethno-nationalist conservatives are.
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Sorry, no. Societies steer themselves quite well by themselves. He is conflating society with government. They are not the same.
They usually do so using some form of governance. Even anarchists use committees.
No, society does not. Society is the result of spontaneous actions by everyone, unplanned, unsteered, uncoordinated, completely the opposite of politicians controlling government.
You too are conflating government and society. They are not the same.
Societies are people working together, co-operating, interacting, supporting each other. Commitees are formed.
Nonsense. Your society is a state of nature. The Founders recognized the inevitability of leaders, and tied our civic identity onto their being elected, not born or won through force of arms.
Even in monarchies government reflected society, and vice versa. In a democracy its's even more intertwined. Brown v. Board became law of the land, and society followed. The populous doesn't much like election deniers, and the election and incoming government reflects that.
Not quite the same, but not nearly so different as you would want.
Societies are spontaneous. Governments are not. That you cannot tell the difference speaks volumes about your ignorance concerning human nature.
Societies are spontaneous. Governments are not.
So?
Society spontaneously follows it's perceived leaders, and a democracy is designed such that it's leaders follow society.
So this is a distinction without a difference.
If it's even true; plenty of society is planned.
"Society spontaneously follows it’s perceived leaders"
Yeah, that's why they need so many police and soldiers, because people are spontaneously following them.
I thought it was to protect against dangerous illegal immigrants doing drag shows.
Criminals are just those with heterodox ideas of what society means?!
You sound like the leftiest leftists I read, talking about the police as an agent of capital keeping the proletariat down.
And soldiers seems utterly irrelevant, since they're explicitly externally facing.
Nominally externally facing, anyway. Perhaps you should mention that to Biden, he's always going on about bombing Americans if we get uppity.
So, you were wrong. But want to point left rather than admit it?
If most of us weren't spontaneously following our leaders -- or at least the rules laid down -- we'd need a lot more police and soldiers to get the job done.
Brown v. Board resulted in society following by white flight and many private schools.
You coming out against school integration because white people are too shitty about it?
I was part of "white flight", the prospect that I might be bussed from the suburbs to a Detroit school to make somebody's numbers look good played a large role in my parents' decision to move to the country. Along with the riots stopping close enough to our house to hear the shouting...
And why would people paying for good schools close by NOT move away in response to a threat to send their children to worse, distant schools?
You see, to a leftist, exhibiting concern for one’s life, liberty, and property is being “shitty” — lacking in “solidarity.”
Exactly, don't send your kids to the same schools they send black kids, because everyone knowns they only send black kids to the worst schools.
Odd stuff to blame on school integration.
Not where I was, in Maryland. To its credit, my county's school system integrated promptly. It was a wrenching adjustment, which happened when I was in third grade. Class sizes increase by about one-third—to approximately 40 in my third-grade class.
Until I graduated from high school, my classmates and I were shifted continuously every few years, as new schools were built to accommodate the newly-enlarged student population. The policy seems to have been to build new schools just a year or so after they were needed. But we graduated from a school system which had finally accommodated the increased numbers. It was all difficult, but nobody can plausibly claim that what happened was not an enormous improvement.
Years later, after I had graduated from high school, I set out to find where all those black kids had come from, without my even knowing they were there. I found out. Not too far from my elementary school there was a rural backwater down a dirt road, which opened onto a large exclusively-black community. It was surrounded by forest, and not visible from any road except by venturing down the inconspicuous entry road.
Conditions were appalling. People there still lived in shacks with so many fissures and holes in the sides you could practically see through them. I later learned that even in the 1960s many houses in that community were hauling water from an open, untreated source—they still had no plumbing at all. Despite that, some of the kids from that community had stuck it out to graduate from one of the best high schools in the nation, and later went on to better lives than they could have had any other way.
Ragebot, your cynicism does not serve you well. And it is certainly not a means by which you can discover facts you have not learned by experience.
Oh, you grew up in MD. That explains a lot, lathrop.
"He is conflating society with government. They are not the same"
He's talking about government. Why would you think otherwise?
I would agree that society steers itself, unless interfered with by government. His point is that the New Right is a governing philosophy that seeks to force society into certain behaviors using the power if government (legislation).
So abortion bans, opposition to legal immigration, protectionism, and hostility to free expression are all ideals that must be forced upon the populace since they refuse to embrace them without coercion.
American society, at least in today's America, largely rejects the cultural beliefs of the New Right. Which is why they support a more "muscular" conservative government.
'I would agree that society steers itself, unless interfered with by government.'
For example?
Prohibition, anti-miscegenation laws, anti-sodomy laws, gay marriage bans, anti-abortion laws, buy American laws, "free speech zones" on college campuses, anti-suffrage laws, racial segregation laws, hate speech laws, bans on parental decision-making, and the list goes on.
Most cultural or speech-resticting legislation are designed to force society into a preferred path. Usually it is cultural conservatives attempting to stop people from moving away from the cultural norms of the past, but liberals attempting to move society in their preferred direction are increasingly guilty of the same behavior, albiet using social pressure rather than legislation.
Cancel culture, hostility to free speech (especially on college campuses, which should be encouraging more speech not less), "microaggressions", and an increasingly broad definition of "racism" are as hostile to society finding a common culture as the legislation that conservatives prefer.
Societal norms have drifted slowly to the "left" ever since America was founded. Conservatives want to stop (or at least slow) that drift. Liberals try to accelerate it. That push/pull leaves the vast majority of Americans stuck between two intractable sides that aren't willong to let American culture evolve on its own.
"cosmo" liberalism is central/eastern European thing and always ends the same way...elites (usually liberal art or social "science" intellectuals") pushing for group (race, gender, other) rights, high taxes for public "goods", strong control of the media/academia/govt and the ngo grifter class for their tribe, supporting foreign wars, a broad attack on traditional values and pushing degeneracy (see the pedo/sexual mutilation push on kids by the trans community).
With all due respect I don't want Vienna or Berlin 1925 for America. My grandparents came for the liberty of sound money, free markets, limited govt, and peace AND a govt that was not attacking my traditional Catholic values. This always goes down the same path..two different tribes one wants true liberty and the other has old world grudges and wants control.
It isn't the "new right" versus virtuous "cosmo" but the old Right (American old right) versus bolshevism (Central/Eastern European). I'm sure the "cosmo" types are good with Balenciaga's ad...the rest of us are not.
Most elites are intelligent and also they are as well-meaning as the rest of us, even if the bureaucratic nature of politics hinders their performance.
Sounds like old fashioned Royalty. Intelligence and competence are not synonyms. Well meaning? If that were true, The digital currency guy and Bernie Madoff wouldn't be in the mess the found themselves.
and moral panics over things like "drag queen story hours,
I see no place for k-3 drag queen story hour. I fail to see any benefit I've asked around with parents sending the kids to private schools. Not a drag queen story hour in sight. But 97% if the kids are reading a grade level. Because private schools are paid to teach core subject matters, and leave the parenting to parents.
Seems to me that highly entertaining storytellng sessions are more likely to interest kids in books and reading than not.
No, entertaining STORIES are more likely to interest the kids in books. But, what gets kids reading is parents reading. If you have kids and do not read for pleasure, that is what kids emulate.
All of this nonsense is caused by the "elites" thinking they know better than parents. Demonstrably wrong.
Entertaining stories told in entertaining ways are even better.
Nobody, but nobody who even vaguely or remotely qualifies in any way as 'elite' came up with drag queen story hour, it was just people who want kids to have fun.
No, it was groomers and pedophiles trying to normalize their perversions.
'Having fun' isn't pedophilia or perversion, though I know it's your project to paint it as such.
Fuck you and your watered down QAnon bullshit.
Go shoot up a pizza joint, if you're going to fill your once pretty sharp mind with such partisan rot.
Disapointing.
"Go shoot up a pizza joint,"
Lol. Why don't you go burn down a bunch of buildings?
I'm not the one who sees pedophiles everywhere on the other side.
That kind of dehumanizing delusion is QAnon's territory.
Oh please.
Your kid is at more danger in a Catholic Church then they ever have been at any drag event ever.
Seems patently false.
They are also dramatically more at risk in schools than Catholic churches.
Not even a little bit.
Plus, when teachers discover a pedophile in their midst they work with law enforcement and prosecutors to send them to jail.
The Catholic Church sends them to another unsuspecting parish and protect them from law enforcement and prosecution. And has done so for decades. It is the definition of an international pedophile ring.
Just like the Boy Scouts.
You're operating with a picture of things about 50 years out of date at this point. In the modern church you have to get a background check to even enter the church pre-school with your OWN kids, let alone teach somebody else's kids. Meanwhile the public schools have gotten a lot more tolerant of sexual abuse by teachers.
At least 269 K-12 educators arrested on child sex crimes since January
The arrested is kind of the point, Brett.
The Church continues to obstruct.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases
Plenty of examples going through 2021, but here's a good one:
"the Dublin Archdiocese's pre-occupations in dealing with cases of child sexual abuse, at least until the mid 1990s, were the maintenance of secrecy, the avoidance of scandal, the protection of the reputation of the Church, and the preservation of its assets. All other considerations, including the welfare of children and justice for victims, were subordinated to these priorities. The Archdiocese did not implement its own canon law rules and did its best to avoid any application of the law of the State."
Odd kind of tolerance - they didn't try to hush any of them up or move them to a different school.
"In the modern church you have to get a background check to even enter the church pre-school with your OWN kids, let alone teach somebody else’s kids."
Do they have background checks for priests? Because that's where the pedophiles are. Sobthat doesn't really help at all, does it? They have successfully shielded priests from prosecution and incarceration for pedophilia for decades, if not hundreds of years. Do yiu really think the pedophiles stopped being pedophiles because the Church told them to stop? C'mon.
The Church is still denying, obstructing, and failing to oust pedophiles from their midst. They are still refusing to aid in the prosecution of pedophile priests. Teachers, as your article illustrates, are doing the exact opposite.
How many examples of conservative organizations (Catholics, Boy Scouts, Southern Baptists, Jehova's Witnesses, Mormons, Liberty University, etc.) covering up sexual predation, rape, pedophilia, and sexual assault will it take for cultural conservatives to stop makkng false accusations against teachers and start cleaning their own house?
Cultural conservatives claiming they are concerned about sexual predators is a joke. If you want to find them look to your allies, not your opponents.
Nelson, are you going to address the point that more K-12 teachers are arrested for sexually abusing their students their students in the US than priests? And not by just a little bit - by more than an order of magnitude.
As for not protecting them, that's bullshit, too. New York has been caught repeatedly covering up and protecting its teachers after they are caught sexually abusing their students. HuffPo, for example, reported some years back that 16 teachers caught sexually abusing their students were still teaching 10 years later. NY Post also did a series of articles about how the city's school system protected - and paid! - their sexually abusive teachers. One teacher got almost $2 million in salary during the 20 years after he was accused of sexual abuse. Another was arrested for sexually assaulting a child... but was still employed with the New York city school system in 2019.
The NY Times also has gotten into the game, reporting on hundreds of teachers caught with anything between sexual harassment and outright rape that were "fired" from their schools, only to immediately get jobs at other schools - often with a letter of recommendation from the previous school. The NYT article was about promoting a "No Passing the Trash" law in the state as had been done in other NE states. As the NYTimes reporter quoted:
Hundreds of cases over the past few decades, and that's just in one state.
"Nelson, are you going to address the point that more K-12 teachers are arrested for sexually abusing their students their students in the US than priests? And not by just a little bit – by more than an order of magnitude."
I already did. When you have a multibillion dollar international organization hiding offenses, obstructing investigations, moving offenders out of the jurisdiction (or even out of the country) to avoid law enforcement, claiming moral and legal immunity, running PR campaigns, claiming innocence, and claiming to be "addressing the issue", you are mich more likely to avoid arrest than a poorly-paid teacher. While both may be pedophiles, one of them is more likely to escape arrest, avoid prosecution, and be free to reoffend in a new community that is, by design, ignorant of the pedophile brought into their midst. This isn't conjecture. It is the literal, provable history of the Catholic Church.
"As for not protecting them, that’s bullshit, too."
Teachers help convict their coworkers. Priests do not. Again, that isn't conjecture. That is what has happened time and again. I understand that priests and the Church feel that confession and repentence before God is sufficient to wipe the slate clean, but that doesn't justify thwarting mortal prosecution in the eyes of most people.
This moral whatabiutism that Catholic apologists engage in is as dishonest as it is false. Teachers, writ large, are no more or less likely to be pediphiles than anyone else (including priests). The difference comes in the attempts by cultural conservatives to label teachers as groomers and sexual predators. The hypocrisy of ignoring more egregious behavior (and statistically more common) behavior in their preferred organizations just emphasizes the dishonesty of these attacks.
Is it an attempt to hide or minimize the behavior of religious organizations? I don't know. Is it an attempt to further an anti-education (or at least anti-public-education) narrative that seems to have taken over cultural conservatives? I don't know that either. The intentional targeting and demonization of teachers is one of the most baffling and unjustified narratives of cultural conservatives. It isn't supported by any sort of data. Teachers aren't any more likely to be pedophiles than business executives, factory workers, cops, politicians, or any other profession. The hate for educators by the right doesn't make sense logically, their claims of grooming don't make sense factually, and their beliefs of what constitutes "sex ed" don't make sense period.
Nelson, you did not address the point - you tried to deflect.
And now you're just plain lying about how teachers being both worse in frequency of sexually abusing the children under their control AND schools being worse than churches in protecting those criminals.
As a simple example of how bullshit your argument is, if teachers are so happy to cooperate to convict their criminal coworkers, why are a lower proportion of teachers convicted than priests when accused of sexual abuse? When multiple politically active left-wing and far-Left news sources all produce extensive articles detailing the large numbers of sexually abusive teachers that are protected by their schools, maybe it isn't just a right-wing conspiracy.
The number of accused priests was hundreds in the US, over more than 50 years. The number of accused teachers is more than that each year.
Why are you so obsessed with trying to defend sexually abusive teachers? Is it a desire to protect pedophiles in general? Are you perhaps a teacher?
Or are you just another partisan bigot that cannot deal with the fact that the stories about Catholic priests are overhyped and the reality is nowhere near as bad you thought, and not even as bad as other organizations you like?
Do you take your five-year-old to a strip show and have him or her put a dollar down the g string of a pole dancer? Seriously dude..these folks are degenerates. Evolution choses your gender...as an adult you can pretend all you want what gender you are but leave the kids alone. Cosmo libertarians have always had a soft spot for degeneracy and bolshevikism...goes back to Central Europe 1920s...always does with those folks.
Why do you think there is any similarity between drag queens and strippers?
If someone wants to do something that you disapprove of, that doesn't make them "degenerate". It makes them different. No more, no less.
Start with the assumption that your morals are yours alone, with no universality. Proceed beyond that point only with overwhelming evidence.
"Why do you think there is any similarity between drag queens and strippers?"
Because sometimes there is.
Sometimes, therefore always? "This one time" becomes "all the time"? That is as illogical as an argument gets.
There's a phrase that means "the tendency to search for, interpret, favor, and recall information in a way that confirms or supports one's prior beliefs or values".
It's not a compliment. You should stop doing that.
'Cosmo libertarians have always had a soft spot for degeneracy and bolshevikism'
Some things really echo down the years, don't they?
Did not know how many of you were such fans of woke pedophilia. Thanks for outing yourselves.
I didn't know how much Qanon had mutated and moved into the mainstream right. Or maybe I did.
Entertaining stories told in entertaining ways are even better. thats how you get book listeners and not book readers.
So the method of receiving knowledge is relevant to understanding? Or are you just trying to claim some sort of moral superiority because you read your books like an aristocrat instead of listening to them like a longhaul trucker?
So the method of receiving knowledge is relevant to understanding?
Reading is fundamental. Reading is THE core skill. Yes varying the delivery method will add to educational performance. You do your kids your way. But I made sure mine could read. At a young age. I dont care what they read. Comic books are OK...but they must grow into good literature.
Drag queens do nothing to advance that goal.
“But I made sure mine could read.”
You and most other parents in America. It’s not an extraordinary thing.
“Drag queens do nothing to advance that goal”
Yes, reading to children is stupid because it doesn’t do anything for them. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/5373247_Reading_aloud_to_children_The_evidence
“Reading aloud to young children, particularly in an engaging manner, promotes emergent literacy and language development … promote[s] a love for reading which is even more important than improving specific literacy skills.”.
You aren’t objecting to story time. You’re objecting to who is doing the reading because you hate them.
Hatred is a disappointing, but prevalent, part of cultural conservatism. It is one of the many things that make it bad for America.
If the alternative to drag queen story hours was the children being raised in the wilderness by wolves, you might just have a point.
Incredible libertarianism, right here.
Sarcastro, the alternative to drag queen story hours isn't no story hours, it's sane people story hours. Having a book read by a cross dressing lunatic doesn't have any particular educational value, if anything the distraction probably reduces the utility as a teaching mechanism.
Screw federated choice, lets make a big federal policy decision! And lets base it on social mores!!
Yeah, you suck a libertarianing.
This isn't to my taste either, but I'm not coming in and insisting it be banned.
There is no necessity for an alternative to drag queen story hour. That's the point. And the libertarian position on free speech and free association supports the drag queens, not the moral panic crowd.
Drag queen story hour is a voluntary activity that provides an educational, societal, and literary good. If you don't like it, don't go. But don't try to stop other people who choose differently than you from going.
The alternative isn't drag queen story hour or being raised by wolves. The alternative to drag queen story hour is cultural authoritarianism.
"You’re objecting to who is doing the reading because you hate them. "
I think "are creeped out by" is probably more accurate, but, sure, let's run with that.
I think a thing that the advocates of these sorts of things seem to miss is that, just naturally, almost all children are being born of, and raised by, heterosexuals. And why would you not expect parents to want their children to be exposed to their own values, not hostile values? You think religious families are going to be happy about Church of Satan story hours being promoted by schools and libraries? Maybe you think NAMBLA story hours would be fine, too? Inner city crime gang story hours?
Look, drag queens are pervs. They exemplify an aberrant (And abhorrent!) lifestyle parents want their kids to have nothing do do with. Let the drag queens read to their own kids, assuming they have any.
Majority culture may need to tolerate weird and literally perverse subcultures, so long as they have the decency to keep to themselves, but we don't have to affirmatively embrace them and help them try to recruit our kids.
Yes, there are some lines. Congrats on proving that.
But that doesn't mean your choice of line is cool and good. You need to do more work than just ad popularum.
I don;t know what abhorrent values drag queens reading stories to kids represents other than the acceptance of people who are different, and fun. Oh, wait, yes, I see.
"most all children are being born of, and raised by, heterosexuals"
And some of those parents aren't self-aggrandizing twats, so the heterosexual parents take their heterosexual kids to drag queen story hour.
"And why would you not expect parents to want their children to be exposed to their own values, not hostile values?"
Some parents think like you. Those parents don't go. Some parents don't think like you, and some of them go. That's called parental or personal choice. Both of which you are obviously hostile to unless it supports your limited view of "right".
Drag queens aren't hostile to your values. They don't care about your values as long as your values return the favor. They just want to dress up in ridiculous costumes and read stories to kids. Nothing is wrong with that.
"Look, drag queens are pervs."
Not true. You can believe it if you want, but you can't force everyone else to live by your ignorant opinion.
"They exemplify an aberrant (And abhorrent!) lifestyle parents want their kids to have nothing do do with."
Some parents. The ones like you, which is far from the majority. Some parents want their kids to have a less myopic view of the world. Why can't those parents do what they want with their kids?
"so long as they have the decency to keep to themselves"
So America is only for the majority? America is for white, straight, Christian people (because that is the majority in America) and everyone else should hide themselves away in shame?
"help them try to recruit our kids"
Just when I thought you had exhausted every bigoted, morally self-righteous, ignorant trope, you put the "trying to turn our kids [insert hated thing here]" cherry on top. What is wrong with you?
Nothing wrong with audio books, but no, kids who enjoy having books read to them are more likely to read themselves.
When you deride people who "[think] they know better than parents", are you referring to people who want to dictate the medical care other people's kids should receive?
I think you have a very limited (and specific) set of issues that you think parents deserve to make decisions about.
I think you have a very limited (and specific) set of issues that you think parents deserve to make decisions about.
Just everything. Cant think of a single decision I farm out to elite experts.
How about medical decisions? Should those be in parental control or government control?
Doctors?
In NYC, private schools are a lot woker than public schools.
Maybe. It seems reasonable to ask if that is a universal truth, in NY but especially in every state. The beauty of private schools is that there can be as many as the market supports, with each promoting the curriculum it thinks will best attract new students (parents). I honestly do not know what the landscape of private schools looks like in NY, but I find it hard to believe they are universally as "woke" as the schools in the public schools system, which has a much more uniform curriculum established by politicians and teachers' unions.
There can be as many as the market supports, helped by Republicans basically going to war on public education.
More woke that screeching about how a white man having a black baby on his lap is racist? Wow.
You really love posting these random nutpickings.
This seems all you do these days.
Random nutpicking? This is an elected education official.
And example of random nutpicking would be your reference to the pizzagate shooter.
Every accusation is a confession.
Its an anecdote. From somewhere across the nation.
And it's like your specialty to find them and base your views on them.
You're a posting fallacy.
"Intelligence and competence are not synonyms."
But they aren't mutually exclusive, either
"Well meaning? If that were true, The digital currency guy and Bernie Madoff wouldn’t be in the mess the found themselves."
Why point to one criminal (Madoff) and one potential-criminal (SBF) and act like the fact that they weren't well-meaning means that no one is?
"I see no place for k-3 drag queen story hour."
Well then, don't go to one. Other people think differently. The existence of drag queen story hour doesn't hurt you in the slightest, except possibly by highlighting the fact that society accepts things that you don't. And your hurt feelings don't count.
"Because private schools are paid to teach core subject matters, and leave the parenting to parents."
Private schools teach the same things that public schools teach. Their students just tend to have a more financially supportive structure around them, superior facilities, a developed pipeline to elite colleges, and grade inflation. If you start with a pool of students who have all the resources necessary to succeed, you will end up with better outcomes.
Nine students in my graduating class of 135 went to Ivy League schools, plus another half-dozen went to MIT/Stanford/Georgetown-level schools. Do you really think that over 10% of the graduates from my school were in the top 5% of students in the country? Or did the fact that we had one alum each from Harvard, Princeton, and MIT as staff members play a part?
If you think that private schools are inherently better, you aren't paying attention to the things that happen in college admissions.
“Intelligence and competence are not synonyms.”
But they aren’t mutually exclusive, either
The two most intelligent Presidents were Hoover and Carter
Your turn.
I believe that Bill Clinton holds the crown, but how is that relevant?
Are you doing that thing again where you find the most negative (and loose) link between something bad and something you oppose and present it as an unshakable connection that is the overwhelming norm?
You should stop doing that. At best it's intellectually lazy, at worst it's intentionally dishonest.
I mean, you'd have to estimate most historical presidents. I've seen credible claims John Quincy Adams probably holds the crown by a significant margin. (And Jefferson is likely higher than Clinton, too).
If you think that private schools are inherently better, you aren’t paying attention to the things that happen in college admissions.
As a whole, Private Schools are better that public schools....as a whole
Sure top tier colleges have more Public school freshman, but thats a pure numbers thing. There are lots of great paying jobs that dont need a degree. You have students self selecting for college.
Private schools are perceived to be better. That's not necessarily reality.
And I didn't mean to insinuate that I went to a public school. I did, until they threw me out. As did the first private school I went to.
But because my parents loved me more than I deserved at the time, they took out another loan and my third high school (and second freshman year) ended in success. The school I referenced was a private, not a public, school.
When you think about who is served, you will understand drag queen story hour. It’s not for the benefit of the kids. The kids are being used.
Using kids is not ok. Even if they never get around to actually raping any of the kids, they’re still using the kids. And that’s not ok.
People are giving up their time and energy to read to kids, and to make the reading fun, silly, and colourful. It's completely kid-centric.
"The kids are being used."
Yes. How dare those drag queens read books to children. It's abusive! All of that "fostering a love of reading" and "learning". It's awful!
They are being exploited by drag queens who are ... expanding their horizons? Teaching them? Sharing their love of reading? It's confusing how reading to children is a bad thing, so you'll have to help us out.
Unless you are one of those hate-oriented, coercive, "back in my day" types who can't accept that other people don't share your biases, your limited view of "good" and "bad" and therefore want to force society to stop all this changing it's doing.
But that would make you a pro-big-government statist. And we know that cultural conservatives don't want the government involved in personal decisions.
Except when they do, of course.
Despite your nonsense, using children isn’t ok. Children aren’t for fulfilling your quasi-sexual whims. Nor are they for your use in any other way.
No one need spend a moment apologizing for protecting children from being used.
I think you ought to apologise for your satanic-panicking.
"using children isn’t ok"
No one is using children. That is hyperbole and moral panic speaking, not sanity.
"No one need spend a moment apologizing for protecting children from being used."
I agree. But you and your friends aren't doing that.
I don't think its a coincidence The greatest growth in the US took place post WWII
Because the average soldiers came home to their communities and started leading. They were not the elite, or educated. But they understood mission and logistics to make it happen.
Sure, either that or the fact that World War II had just resulted in all of Western Europe and the far east being blown to smithereens, and now being rebuilt by an economic system with the US at its apex. But your thing works too, sure.
Look around in any community, in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. Communities were led by vets. Has nothing to do with Europe
Yes, that explains why the Soviet Union and other Communist countries expanded so fast.
I mean ... Eastern Europe wasn't blown to smithereens, was it?
I thought the USSR expanded so fast through the wonders of fake statistics and working people to death in slave labor camps.
Communism doesn't work very well. Is that something you thought I might disagree with?
You think the average soldier coming back from WW2 knew logistics?
And they started leading, yet weren't elites?
You have a pretty simple history in your head, but I'm afraid it doesn't hold together.
Maybe he's talking about the Nazi scientists.
One trick pony performs his one trick -- shocking!
‘The New Right thinkers are far more skeptical of elites.’
I don’t know about the ‘Thinkers’ but the New Right mostly seem to think elites are trying to deliberately poison them with vaccines when they aren’t running a massive Satanic child sex abuse ring and drinking adrenochrone. Oddly enough, Donald Trump, the man with the golden toilets, doesn’t count as elite and Elon Musk, one of the richest men on the world doesn’t count as elite either. Some New Right definition of ‘elite’ seems to be in order, as well as ‘New Right Thinker.’
‘for putting a lot of power in the hands of (often Democratic-led) major tech companies.’
Lolwut.
‘”you will not replace us!”‘
A Nazi chant. You left out ‘the Jews.’
‘an elite unconcerned with the social and national security costs of a deindustrialized America.’
You know this is Reaganomics, right?
‘we advocate severe restrictions on the power of government, regardless of which elites happen to be in power at the time.’
I notice that your version ‘the elites’ do not include the 1%, the wealthiest people on the planet, who own the media, influence elections and policies in a way regular voters could never dream of. For example, we don’t have climate change because of politicians. We have climate change because of the incredibly wealthy and powerful fossil fuel industry, and their influence over politicians. If you want restrictions on the powers of the elite, start there.
I don’t think the nationalism is all that divorced from anti-elitism. The hatred can incorporate anything else they don’t like, be it drag queens or immigrants – all part of an elite plot to destroy and/or control.
And of course you have elite billionaires who channel massive quantities of money to these elite populist nationalist drag-queen hating politicians.
No, we have climate change because ordinary people like things like heat and A/C and transportation and electricity.
They do like them. And the fossil fuel industry has managed to make sure they're the main source of those things, usually in the nastiest, most poisonous and inefficent way possible.
Oh don’t be such an idiot. Inefficiency is economically bad, and people running fossil fuel industries have to breathe, too.
Fossil fuels became the main source of energy because they’re a damn good source of energy; Compact, capable of high efficiency, fully dispatchable, and with a very high EROEI. Your ‘renewable’ sources are all inferior on one or more, and usually all of those metrics.
They’re generally diffuse, they show up when they want to, not when you need them, and often not even on a reliable schedule. Hydro power requires rainfall and ideal geography, which you then submerge. Geothermal is low intensity and hard to extract almost everywhere. Wind blows when it wants. The sun comes up every day, but then it goes down every night, and even during the day varies greatly depending on cloud cover. Biomass is usually just laundered fossil fuels, and often competes with food production.
Generally, the one thing that unites all the energy sources that get labeled “renewable” is that they SUCK. Big time.
Now, nuclear is good for billions of years, the wastes are easily dealt with because the quantities are TINY compared to the energy produced, it has the best safety record of any power source, it’s dispatchable and reliable.
So, naturally, advocates of ‘renewable’ energy hate it with a passion.
Fossil fuels became the main source of energy because they’re a damn good source of energy;
Of course they are, but that ignores the question of why exactly we have used and continue to use so much of them. A lot of that is policy-driven.
Promoting the expansion of suburbia certainly made for a large increase in gasoline use, as did the relatively low funding for transit. Failure to develop ways to price fossil fuel externalities helped too.
Probably there are other things as well.
Anyway, it's one thing to say it's reasonable that fossil fuels became our main energy source, and another to say we haven't been using it very wastefully and inefficiently for many decades.
No, bernard, none of it is policy driven. Because of the manifest advantages of fossil fuels, it didn't have to be policy driven. Outside of niche applications, fossil fuels are just the rational choice.
It's 'renewable' energy that requires policy to get people to adopt, because they suck on so many important metrics.
Now, this is not to say that fossil fuels are perfect. Despite their other advantages, they're dirty. And, ironically, they lifted us up out of poverty so that we could CARE that they're dirty!
But they did lift us up out of poverty, and the reason they could do that is the high EROEI, "Energy Return On Energy Invested"; The lower IROEI is, the larger the percentage of the energy in an economy, (And thus the work!) has to be devoted to just getting the energy to do the things you actually wanted to do. With a low EROEI, (Think biomass without fossil fuel laundering, for instance.) poverty is unavoidable for almost everybody, because almost all work has to be devoted to bare survival.
This is a factor the enemies of fossil fuels almost uniformly neglect: Unless they're replaced with something that has a high EROEI, society will fall back into almost universal poverty.
At present, the only practical alternative to fossil fuels is nuclear power...
To be clear, "at present". I think that could change, particularly if we can build solar power satellites, and substantially increase the amount of automation, so that the fraction of the economy devoted to energy production isn't dependent on human labor.
But at present the EROEI of solar power systems, when you include the storage necessary to make them strictly comparable to fossil fuels or nuclear, is deplorably low. In Northern latitudes, it can even be negative, once you take into account the need for storage. But nowhere is it very good.
Of the presently available energy production technologies, nuclear is the only non-fossil option capable of sustaining a high living standard industrial society. A lot of it's opponents implicitly don't want such a society...
No, they don't, because they've hear of Fukushima and Three Mile Island. There's other disasters that aren't as well know, toxic spills and leaks that killed hundreds or even thousands over many years. People don't trust nuclear, doubt they ever will.
Do you understand that even with Three Mile Island, Chernobyl, and Fukushima, nuclear power has a hugely better safety record than other power sources? Even with those highly publicized accidents. The other sources of power are that much worse.
Nobody died at Three Mile Island, the plant didn't even exceed it's monthly radiation release allowance, (Which any coal plant would exceed in a few hours.) the death toll from the Fukushima accident was due to the evacuation, not radiation, and in the year Chernobyl happened, nuclear power was still safer than coal!
That's because thanks to things like Fukushima and Chernobyl, there aren't that many nuclear power plants around.
'Safer than coal' is a fairly low bar, too.
But it's not me you have to persuade.
No, we're talking deaths per TWH, so it's normalized to the amount of power each source produces.
Deaths per 1000 TWH
Coal – global average 100,000 (41% global electricity)
Coal – China 170,000 (75% China’s electricity)
Coal – U.S. 10,000 (32% U.S. electricity)
Oil 36,000 (33% of energy, 8% of elec)
Natural Gas 4,000 (22% global electricity)
Biofuel/Biomass 24,000 (21% global energy)
Solar (rooftop) 440 (< 1% global electricity)
Wind 150 (2% global electricity)
Hydro – global average 1,400 (16% global electricity)
Hydro – U.S. 5 (6% U.S. electricity)
Nuclear – global average 90 (11% global electricity w/Chern&Fukush)
Nuclear – U.S. 0.1 (19% U.S. electricity)
The difference is stark: Nuclear power, INCLUDING the accidents, is safer than everything else by a LOT. And US nuclear power, historically, has been about 900 times safer than the world average, which is not shocking when you consider our hydro-power is about 300 times safer than the world average, and our coal power 10 times safer than the world average. (A mere 100,000 times more dangerous than US nuclear...)
We're just that much better at things than the rest of the world...
It still boils down to there just not being that many nuclear plants. Or, to quote from the link:
'The reason the nuclear number is small is that nuclear produces so much electricity per unit. There just are not many nuclear plants.'
Given that the solar and wind deaths are predominantly construction accidents, I expect if more nuclear pants were built, mortality from contruction accidents would also rise.
I also note it makes no mention of deaths caused by leaks from nuclear sources which have contaminated large areas, I wonder if they're included.
So, basically, you're innumerate, is what you're saying? You're just incapable of reasoning with numbers? Because that's what you're telling me here.
'I also note it makes no mention of deaths caused by leaks from nuclear sources which have contaminated large areas, I wonder if they’re included."
Explicitly so. The only such accident is Chernobyl, and it was mentioned. Chernobyl, the worst nuclear accident in history, is estimated to have killed somewhere between 30-50 people from acute effects, and the worst case estimate is that it *might* kill as many as 4,000 people total from a slight increase in local cancer rates. Over the next century, so 40 people a year. An increase in the frequency of cancer which is so low as to be impossible to detect.
The problem with this latter number is that it depends on the effects of radiation at levels barely above background levels, and is based on the "LNT" (Linear No Threshold) model of radiation effects, which is pretty much known at this point to greatly overestimate the effects of low level radiation.
We had a long term experiment going that was supposed to verify whether the LNT model was correct. The Obama administration axed it just before they were going to issue their report.
Inconvenient Low Dose Radiation Science Axed Under Obama Administration
You're really lowballing the long-term health effects of radiation leaks - and most US nuclear power plants and waste sites leaked for decades.
Yes, Brett. It is.
Did you read my first sentence? The issue I raised is not why we use fossil fuels, but we use, and have used, so much of them.
That is certainly policy-driven. Now, I'm not saying the government went out and mandated fossil fuel use. What I am saying is that lots of policies had the effect of increasing fossil fuel use.
Only in the sense that those policies were not opposed to its use. For example, not always tying up reserves outside of the reach of mining companies.
The government didn't have to particularly promote fossil fuels to get people to use them, the way it does with 'renewable' energy.
Fossil fuel companies and the automobile industry were promoting it, and if you think their deep pockets didn't influence political policies you really are a holy fool.
EVERY industry "promotes" its products. Not every industry requires massive subsidies and mandates in order to get people to buy its products, the way 'renewable' power does.
Um, fossil fuels get billions in subsidies, and mostly they're the only option, hardly needing a mandate. Not sure how else you think you're going to get nuclear to be a widespread option without subsiudies and mandates, either.
'they lifted us up out of poverty so that we could CARE that they’re dirty!'
It's not people lifted out of poverty that live in cancer corridors or sacrifice zones that exist because of fossil fuels.
'Unless they’re replaced with something that has a high EROEI, society will fall back into almost universal poverty.'
Not the societies in the Middle East, Africa and South America for whom fossil fuels have enriched a few, left the rest in poverty, and poisoned vast tracts of land when there haven't been wars waged over it. To say nothing of the destabilising effects climate change will have all over the world.
Fossil fuels are terrible because they're literally destroying the planet. Renewable sources trump fossil fuels in that one inescapable metric - everything else is design and logistic. Nuclear isn't all that clean, especially if there's an earthquake or a tidal wave or lack of proper maintenance, requires massive subsidies to get going, and had to have a special type of notice designed to be comprehensible beyond the possible fall of civilisation to warn of the danger of its byproducts. It's not advocates of renewable energy that are preventing nuclear power plants, it's anyone who's ever heard of Chernobyl not wanting one built near them.
"Oddly enough, Donald Trump, the man with the golden toilets, doesn’t count as elite..."
Somebody didn't watch Dave Chapelle's SNL monologue.
Why, did he say something relevant?
"Most elites are intelligent and also they are as well-meaning as the rest of us, even if the bureaucratic nature of politics hinders their performance."
Man, Cowen is really painting classical liberals as gullible fools here. And he's certainly not describing the 1970's and 80's libertarians I used to hang out with. We figured that power over other people attracted people who WANTED power over other people, and that meant powerful institutions would always tend to be dominated by authoritarian types. The only answer was to limit the power, to render it less attractive to the wrong people, and less damaging in their hands.
But I don't think you're much more right here. Being a nationalist isn't so much about how much power government should have, as it is about what ends it should pursue with that power.
Libertarianism is inherently a universalist philosophy, in the sense that everyone is entitled to the same rights, which do not stop at national borders. But government is not a libertarian institution! It's at most a foreign inclusion in libertarianism, an accommodation to very unhappy realities. Libertarianism and government do not coexist happily, because they are based on different premises.
Libertarianism might be universalist, but government, morally, can not be. Because government is based on violence and coercion, rights violations. Which if they can be justified at all must be justified on the basis of benefit to the people whose rights are being violated, the government's citizens.
So, while libertarianism is universalist, government must always have as its object the welfare of the citizens. It is inherently non-universal, nationalist in nature. The interests of non-citizens must operate as a side constraint, but they can never, morally, be the primary objective of an institution existing on the basis of violating the rights of citizens.
To have your rights violated, and not even theoretically in your own interest, but for somebody else's benefits? A universalist government isn't more libertarian than a nationalist government, it's LESS libertarian!
You continue to be an *awful* libertarian. What you want would lose a lot of people a lot of liberty.
Your rules would all be nice and simple as we returned to a lovely economically free feudalism.
I continue to be an awful libertarian according to somebody who isn't even claiming to be a libertarian.
Yes. And I say you're an awful physician, even though I'm not a physician. You're an awful football player, too, I bet. Maybe almost as bad as I am.
I like freedom, and you don't; you like formalities of freedom.
Such economic formalities would actively immiserate and give fewer practical choices to people generally, even if you and I might benefit.
What you call the "formalities of freedom" are the actual freedom.
Sure it is.
In all ways but operationally.
To be clear, what you mean by "operationally", is that actually getting to make your own decisions carries the risk of you making a mistake, so true freedom consists of taking those risky decisions away from you.
No, I mean operationally.
I mean stuff like being able to choose which cafe you go to. Like being able to choose what job you like without having to choose whatever will give you health insurance right now. Like not having choices beyond just do I pay for rent or food this month. Like choosing what kind of reading events at the library you take your kid to. Like being able to get married to who you want to. Like not having to choose between having a job and having a child.
Being poor is not from some bad risks someone made.
A libertarian that is mostly for their rights and is unconcerned with other people sounds pretty classically "libertarian" to me.
Now go find one who said that, because that's not what I said.
No, it's what you do.
Very well said.
There is no ideology for the new right.
They're reactionaries. That's all. That's the whole bit. Look at them and Putin; they're not nationalists.
This is such a disappointing essay. Somin disagrees with Cowen because, he says, the difference between “Libertarians” and “New Rightists” is not their attitudes toward the “elites,” but their attitudes toward "Nationalism." I also disagree with Cowen, but not for the reason Somin states. In the US, who are the "elite?" We have no royalty, so our "elite" are either elected politicians, their apologists in the press, and their apologists in academia, or, they are the very rich. And these two groups are often entwined, and yet they are also often utterly opposed to each other. So how can the difference between "Classical Liberals" (Libertarians) and "New Rightists" be based on their attitude toward the "elite" when the “elites” in the US are an amorphous group full of people who both love government power and those who despise it? If Cowen’s argument is dependent on who he chooses to deem “elite,” then it is reduced to meaninglessness.
I also disagree with Somin. “Nationalism” may be understood as the opposite of “Cosmopolitanism” (preferring policies that further US interests rather than global interests), but that is not a common understanding – to most it is either a synonym for Nazism (wrong) or patriotism (wrong) or (correctly) any policy or organization that acts on or affects the entire nation). But using Somin’s definition that sets Nationalism opposite Cosmopolitanism, WHY should our US government NOT further US interests when they conflict with the interests of other nations? Why should national state representatives not pursue their state's interests over other state's interests when considering national legislation? Each country, and each state has its own governments, and the negotiations between them require each to represent their own interests.
Nationalism is amoral. What is not amoral are the political principals one wishes to prevail at a national level. That is why "National Socialism" is an unmitigated evil, but National Libertarianism, would be ideal (to me, at least). Whether or not "National Conservatism” is good or bad is entirely determined by the definition of “Conservatism.” By defining the "National Conservatives" of the "New Right" as a xenophobic, tyrannical, statists likely “to bridge a gap between conservatism and collectivism” (!), all that is accomplished is to create a different bogeyman, other than "the establishment," to hate. Presenting anti-Trumpism by raising a straw man and knocking it down seems beneath a person of Ilya Somin's intellect.
Somin says "it is impossible to imagine" a New Rightist uttering Ronald Reagan's words about a “shining city” open to people with the will and heart to get here." Somin may see Reagan’s words as advocacy for open, unrestricted immigration, but I think he knows better. He knows the laws that existed at the time, and he knows that the expensive social "safety net" that was erected in the 20th century changed the immigration landscape from the previous century when an expanding country with limited government and NO government safety nets made open immigration a boon to the country. Now, as I am sure Reagan would agree, it behooves us to do what most, if not all, other countries do - attempt to assure that most of the people who wish to come here are not criminals and have the “will and heart” to be productive and not become additions to the burden that taxpayers already bear to support the unproductive citizens who are already here. That means that regulated immigration is, or at least can be, rational. It is not xenophobic to make this argument, nor is it racist: it makes no difference from which race or country potential immigrants come – it only makes a difference whether they come with a reasonable chance to participate productively in our economy and are likely to do no harm.
There may be bigoted New Rightists (if we could reach an agreement on just what “New Rightist” means – in Reagan’s day it was “NeoCon,” another reason I don’t think Somin is saying much here), just as there may be bigots in any other political group. But labeling New Rightists as xenophobes with "cultural insecurity" and saying that this is the basis of "Stop Woke laws" and "moral panic" over drag queens doing shows in elementary schools is nonsense. The “Woke” curriculum, based on the 1690 project and follow on “scholarship,” is a lot of half-truths and lies. It teaches an evaluation of people and societal systems through a lens of racism. It creates citizens who likewise view everything through this racist lens. And it is widely opposed by parents other concerned people. Public schools are ultimately run by the government, and if anyone is going to insist that public school curricula teaches objective, race neutral, truthful history, who will it be if not the government? (Which is one reason I oppose public education, but that is another topic). The only way the government can do this is to propose laws that ban teaching historical lies and racist thinking to elementary and middle school children, children who have not yet learned how to reason critically and question what they are being told. There is a time and place for “free speech” in the academic sense: after children are ready for it. There is also a time and a place for “drag queen shows” (which can be highly entertaining, btw), and I do not think it is "cultural insecurity" to opine that primary school classrooms is not one of them.
Somin may as well have said “I am Libertarian and I disagree with everyone else.” There are lots of differences between Libertarians and other people. There is no need to put them into ill-defined groups so they can be distinguished and maligned as if everyone in those groups is alike.
Thanks for this post, a lot of it made sense to me and I agree about Professor Somin's (deliberate?) imprecision of his argument.
"There may be bigoted New Rightists (if we could reach an agreement on just what “New Rightist” means – in Reagan’s day it was “NeoCon,”"
Actually, in Reagan's day a "neo-con" was, literally, a new conservative. The neo-cons were liberals who came over to conservatism over the left's failure to oppose communism during the cold war.
Neocons were stated to be the opposite of paleocons. To some they were liberal hawks who began to support moderate conservatives over the leftist philosophy that pervaded the anti-war (specifically, anti-Vietnam war) movement. The best definition I've found, which is more general: "a variant of the political ideology of conservatism that combines features of traditional conservatism with political individualism and a qualified endorsement of free markets. Neoconservatism arose in the United States in the 1970s among intellectuals who shared a dislike of communism and a disdain for the counterculture of the 1960s, especially its political radicalism and its animus against authority, custom, and tradition." There is a long article following this definition - it is clear to me that people who would consider themselves NeoCon and New Right belong to similar movements. https://www.britannica.com/topic/neoconservatism.
The trouble with the "New Right" is that it isn't particularly new, and certainly isn't right.
The whole business of nationalism, disdain for "elites," - an ill-defined term if ever there was one - smacks of all sorts of bigotry.
(No comments yet from the VC'ers on Trump's dinner with Ye and Nick Fuentes. Maybe Bernstein is busy preparing another post on left-wing antisemitism.)
There's a lot of conflating issues and different concepts being used here. "Nationalism" and "populism" and "elitism" and "cosmopolitism."
However, one of the issues here is the transnational elitist group, and the apparent corruption and spoils system within that group, where they take from their local communities/countries to feed their rich lifestyle. We're talking the Russian Oligarchs and Sam Bankman-Frieds of the world. Where they can crash their local system, and run with the money and resources to other countries, leaving their poor constitutents/countrymen with the proverbial bill.
It's critical here to differentiate professionalism from elitism. Professionals are experts in their relative fields and should be respected/ But they stay within their field. Elites, by contrast, may not actually be experts, but only luck out into their relative position. However, they feel they are better than others, more justified and righteous to rule. And they often feel more connections with other elites in other countries, other aristocrats, rather their their own countrymen which are the base of their power. In doing so, they are often willing to effectively betray their countrymen for the elitist groups..even those in other countries.
So...cosmopolitanism....elitism...they are two sides of the same coin. And often, effectively, they betray their own supposed values and responsibilities to increase their own wealth at the cost of others. In addition, the elites need to divert public opinion and attention away from themselves towards an enemy, a cause, a mission. Otherwise, the public would quickly understand the corruption inherent with which they enrich themselves. So, a cause is designed to divide and divert. What it is, depends on the times and country. Whether it be "CRT" or "ESG" or "the west is evil". And it creates opportunities to divert more resources their way, at the cost of the common people.
Strange to see A.L. echoing Stalin.
Fighting for the common people is a cause throughout history. Whether that be the American Revolution, French Revolution, or the very creation of democratic society, against the elitism of an aristocracy.
The Stalin reference makes little sense.
The Stalin reference makes little sense.
To you, I guess.
Google "rootless cosmopolitans."
Oh, I see. Your argument didn't make any sense.
You've completely misunderstood, and somehow compared the elites who control the levers of power in government and society to a group of minority Jews to be discriminated against.
Do rootless cosmopolitans next!
Oh, I see you just about did.
You have no idea where whoever is feeding this too you got this? Because...there are some tropes here, my dude.
And yet, you have no response to it.
What do you support? Mass illegal immigration, to lower wages for working class Americans. Mass forgiveness of college loans and delays in repaying them, for upper class professional Americans, at the cost of higher inflation, which hits the poor worst.
No response to your rewarmed antisemetic tropes being applied more generally?
Well, antisemetic tropes are factually wrong. You posit things that are not true, and have never been true, but which have been called true throughout history by some very bad people looking to do some very bad things.
No, student loan forgiveness did not cause inflation.
There is so much wrong with what you write...assuming elites who control society are automatically Jews? Wow...
Not to mention your complete lack of economic education.
Why would anyone take Somin seriously in any discussion involving a nation? He doesn’t believe in them.
Yeah, that's not true. You and I may disagree with him on borders policy, but don't lie about his beliefs.
What Ben means is that Somin doesn't believe in nations. And on a fundamental level, no, he doesn't.
Says you. Not him.
You remain not a telepath.
It’s awesome to invent new categories of people like the "New Right" (who totally exist and are not at all strawmen) and then wax profoundly about how this new category of people is different from some other category of people (who are also totally not strawmen).
Not imaginary group A differs from not imaginary group B you guys! Buy my book about it! Pay me to speak to your group! The not imaginary beliefs these people hold are soooo interesting and they differ is such interesting and complex ways you need to pay me to tell you about!
Jeez, you seem unhappy.
That’s a cool story you’re telling yourself
Something going on here worth more attention than it gets.
Libertarians have no theory of government. Their ideology compels opposition to all government, so of course they are at a loss to analyze how governments come to be, and how they work. They disregard how governments are founded, where rights come from, where the power to vindicate rights comes from, what constrains government powers, where power to enforce constraints on government comes from—and all the other government-related stuff which being against government denies you access to.
Libertarians have tried to escape that pickle by corrupting the notion of, “elites"—a term libertarians use to derogate people who favor government, and especially people who work in government. The answer to all the unexamined questions about government becomes that things are the way they are because, "elites," demand that it be so.
Never mind that only a tiny fraction of libertarians’ government-related targets are actually members of social elites, or economic elites, in the usual senses of the term. They all get called, “elites,” because that is what being in government makes you to a libertarian.
Now, right-wing populists have picked up on that libertarian tic, and joined in the pejorative chorus against, “elites”—who in this instance are almost never members of any elite class at all.
What all this amounts to is surplus anti-government cynicism, which supposes it can justify itself ideologically. More-reflective consideration would question that justification, and then go on to wonder about the ideology behind it.
Sounds to me like you have no idea what Libertarian ideology is all about. It does not "compel opposition to all government." You are confusing Libertarian ideology with Anarchist ideology. We do not "disregard where governments come from." In fact, we usually begin with the necessity of government to combat the "might makes right" world of "uncivilized" people - and a "social contract" that has as its foundation the government monopoly on the first use of force, constrained by the concept of due process. We argue that government must be limited in its powers, and thus constrained. And that is just your first paragraph. I don't recall reading anything as idiotic, nonsensical, and uninformed as your diatribe here.
No, he's fundamentally right about that point: The non-aggression principle and government can't logically co-exist. Government is a foreign inclusion in libertarian theory, libertarian theory itself does not allow for it.
All sorts of ways have been seized on to resolve the conflict between libertarianism not allowing for government, and government being unavoidable. None of them really work well on a logical level.
Mind, the theories that happily accept government have a mirror image problem, only with the existence of rights, not government.
reasonableone1959 — In your comment above, there is not one syllable to provide any clue where any real government actually comes from. It is all about libertarian theory. Nothing about practice. Here is a hint. Think Hobbes and Leviathan. Generalize from there. Arrive eventually at the American founding, and the way it transformed Hobbes.
I think your idea of Libertarianism differs from mine, if you think that Libertarianism compels the absence of all government. You are literally equating Libertarianism with Anarchy, and while Brett Bellmore may have been an Anarchist who realized his error and came into the folds of Libertarianism, I have considered myself a Randian Libertarian for going on 50 years, since I was in high school. I am familiar with Hobbes, and like our founders, I reject his ideas, his support of absolute monarchy, outright, preferring the Social Contract theories of John Locke (some of which can be traced to Aristotle): the thought experiments that posit mankind originating in a natural state, and the injustices and warfare that follow until a method of keeping order is agreed upon. Without a rational, limited, empiricist and fair government, trading, and the growth of a market economy, is impossible, for there needs to be an authority to resolve disputes among people entering voluntarily into even the most primitive of contracts (oral promises). From this basis, the growth of complex civilized nations and economies can follow, along with government that performs limited but necessary functions that could not be performed by individuals acting individually or in groups according to their rational self-interest.
I graduated from a respected school of law and focused, to the extent we could have something similar to a "major," on Constitutional Law and in particular, the events that lead to the drafting and ratification of the Constitution, and I am very familiar with "the American Founding" and the theories upon which it is based. To me, these theories constitute "Classical Liberalism," or "Libertarianism." And they are absolutely not theories that preclude Government or compel the absence of Government, but in fact are theories that necessitate it. I absolutely agree with Brett: "Actually, most governments tend to be terribly oppressive, the majority of the global population lives in unfree societies. Non-oppressive governments are very much the exception, and the 21st century seems to be trending away from them." The whole purpose of our Constitution, which I think could be described as an imperfect Libertarian manifesto, is to recognize this fact and deal with it by making it difficult for Government to act all, and very difficult for it to act outside of its very limited scope. We have failed to respect this reality over time, as Brett notes, but that does not prove that Liberty requires no government at all.
Pretty sure Nozick wrote an entire book as a functional Libertarian theory of government. And he's hardly the only one. Maybe you should actually read some Libertarian thought?
I don’t think either distrust of elites, or nationalism, or cultural conservatism explain the current state of civil strife. You have to put them together I think the current right sees national institutions as having been taken over and occupied by foreigners, and sees it as their job to uproot the foreigners and get rid of them, by violence if necessary. They don’t see the opposing political party as a legitimate political party at all. They see them as essentially a foreign occupation force. They don’t see them as Amercans.
Since they don’t regard foreigners as having any right to having any say in the affairs of the country, they don’t see themselves as having any obligation to let those whom they don’t regard as genuine Americans vote, and when they illegitimately hold offices intended for Americans they don’t feel any obligatiin to treat them with respect. And by foreigners here I mean Democrats.
Neither nationalism, distrust of elites, xenophobia, and cultural conservatives capture the issue of viewing change as fundamentally foreign and parasitical, and treating native-born American citizens they associate with change as foreigners and not American at all.
What we have here is an ideology for a coup, for civil war, or for massacres.
My chief objection to your thesis is that you fail to note that the regard is mutual. Recall in 2016, Hillary dismissing her opposition as a "basket of deplorables". Notice the way the left more and more describes all opposition to them as coming from the moral equivalent of, if not actual, "Nazis".
The biggest threat I see is that the Democratic party is starting to reject the idea of freedom of speech. See:
Do You Have a Right Not to Be Lied To? The legal thinkers reconsidering freedom of speech.
Note that the academics referred to are all of the left.
I have long supported the constitutional right of conservatives to resist change by legitimate and democratic means, even when I might favor change myself. I have also long opposed liberals and libertarians’ tendency to use courts, relying on vague phrases in the constitution, to overturn long-standing cultural and legal norms which were well outside the issues the framers of those phrases were concerned with. I have insisted on using the democratic process, one locality at a time, to institute sweeping cultural change.
But the reason for this, the core purpose of a Republican form of government, is provide a set of legitimate and peaceful methods for resolving disputes, and to insist that all parties rely on those means and don’t go outside them. The whole point of this is to have a set of institutions and values that are seen as overrarching and common to both disputants, whose legitimacy remains even when the institutions are in the hands of the other side.
The whole point of this is precisely to avoid the sort of strife and portents of civil war we see before us.
That is, preserving the peace through an agreed process for instituting legitimate change based on consent of the governed comes both prior to maximizing liberty, equality, and diversity, and prior to preserving our precious cultural heritage and values.
"…resolving disputes, and to insist that all parties rely on those means and don’t go outside them…"
Tell leftists that there’s a constitutional amendment process if they want to change the constitution. They don’t seem to accept that.
It's more that cultural conservatives disregard the Ninth Amendment (and its very clear premise, as laid out at the Founding). There are rights that you would howl if you were to lose them (privacy, medical decision-making, bodily autonomy, even parental rights) that you claim can't be found in the Constitution when they are applied to people who do things you don't like.
Your support of the Constitution rests solidly on your cultural and political beliefs. It's supposed to be the other way around.
“someone has to steer the ship”
The current pilots are steering the ship with a yo ho ho and a bottle of rum.
BWA HA HA HA HA
Why pick 15? Why not pick the draft age, 18?
Cherry picking smells fishy, always.
So you hate Prof. Volokh, and Prof. Somin. Why do you bother to come here?
"Maybe, but they also got a fair amount of government assistance."
Perhaps they got such assistance because they're a damn good source of energy.
Naw, no way he's dumb enough to think that.
But in such cases, the institution is advancing non-member interests because the members themselves view that as in their own interest. Not directly because the benefits to non-members are a primary institutional goal.
Nationalists can certainly view things like helping refugees as worthy goals, if the citizenry want it done. What nationalists don't view it as, is an obligation of government.
Ilya tends to import the universalism of libertarian rights, and try to impose it on non-libertarian government benefits. As I say, that actually renders government LESS libertarian, because, what's worse than being coerced for your own purported benefit? (Nationalist government) Being coerced for somebody else's benefit!
Notice that I'm distinguishing here between rights and benefits. Remember, libertarians only accept the existence of negative rights. Benefits are something different from rights.
Libertarianism demands that governments universally respect rights. But this is impossible, because government is defined by its violation of rights, the only thing that renders it a distinct institution is that it is allowed to violate rights. Specifically, the rights of its citizens. But government's dependence on violating the rights of citizens doesn't imply violating the rights of non-citizens, outside the governments' territory. Those people it can just leave alone entirely, neither imposing costs nor providing benefits.
But Ilya's universalism goes beyond libertarian principles, contradicts them, imposing on government an obligation to provide universal benefits, to work for the welfare of non-citizens. Not just leave them alone, as actual libertarianism dictates.
Yeah. My complaint here is that Somin is like a shipwreck victim who so appreciates the lifeboat he got pulled into that he wants EVERYONE to get to board the lifeboat.
And he's utterly in denial about the fact that getting what he wants would sink it.
He loves this distinct society so much he wants to share it with everybody, but can't accept that distinct societies can only exist in the first place because they can control entry. He can't accept that his open borders would destroy what he loves.
I would say "can be", not "is usually". Actually, most governments tend to be terribly oppressive, the majority of the global population lives in unfree societies. Non-oppressive governments are very much the exception, and the 21st century seems to be trending away from them.
One can argue that even those unfree societies are better than anarchy, but I'm not so sure. Actual anarchy is basically non-existent on Earth, what usually gets called "anarchy" is actually polyarchy, multiple governments warring against each other to try to become dominant.
I used to be what I called an "aspirational anarchist", which is to say that I saw anarchy as a worthy goal to work towards. I guess I still would say that, but I no longer believe it's an attainable goal. Like E.O.Wilson said of communism, "Great idea. Wrong species."
But, anyway, you're right: The idea that one gives up some rights and accepts government to gain security isn't new. I was just saying that it doesn't really fit into libertarianism on a logical level.
No, clearly I don't. Hobby Lobby is a closely held corporation whose owners are in agreement as to their goals. The corporation advances those goals because they are the goals of the owners of the corporation. In so doing it is advancing the perceived interests of its own 'citizens'.
Ilya doesn't want government to concern itself with benefits to non-citizens because citizens want this; He'd like it if citizens wanted this, but what we citizens want is irrelevant to his argument. He wants government to concern itself with benefits to non-citizens as a matter of purported moral obligation. Because of the universality of ethics. He'd impose that universality on us if he could, he is aware it isn't popular.
Actually, most governments tend to be terribly oppressive, the majority of the global population lives in unfree societies.
This is begging the question. I probably agree with you, but what do you mean by unfree? You talking rights, or democratic norms, or consent?
In this case, if you check the history, I think you'll find they became a good source of energy first, then got government backing (because they became critical to national security and/or winning elections, take your pick).
Renewables, for the most part, never proved themselves first.
(Hydro did - and there are tons of privately held damns to prove it. Hydro is great where it works and when you don't mind submerging massive amounts of land).
There's a possibly apocryphal story (it was behind a paywall so I never got a chance to check its veracity) that fossil fuel companies, knowing of the long term effects of emissions on global weather patterns since at least the late sixties, were ready to move to more renewable sources of energy back in the eighties, but were told not to, by the Reagan administration. Hence they ended up strangling renewables in the crib.
Yeah, that sounds pretty fictional to me. I mean, every industry sets out to go out of business, and has to be argued out of it by politicians, right?
A business that knows it’s business is going to wreck the planet might change its business model to a less destructive one. You don't even have to call it an ethical decision - it's entirely practical.
He wants to share the parts around your house especially. And if the people he wants to share it with are homeless criminals, he has (entirely rhetorical) keyhole solutions for that, so he can casually ignore your concerns about it.
Any of those three you want will do. According to the "Democracy Index" 17% of the world population lives under "hybrid" regimes, (Countries that are nominally democracies, but where the outcome of elections are largely rigged.) and 37% under outright authoritarian regimes that don't even pretend to democracy.
The picture isn't any better in terms of freedom, according to Freedom House.
And both agree things are getting worse, not better.