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Why the Florida and Texas Social Media Laws Violate the Takings Clause
They mandate occupation of private property without the consent of the owner.

Yesterday, the US Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit upheld Texas' law banning major social media websites from using most forms of content moderation. The decision is at odds with a recent Eleventh Circuit ruling striking down Florida's similar (though somewhat less sweeping) law. The Eleventh Circuit ruling was written by prominent conservative Trump appointee Judge Kevin Newsom. In May, the Supreme Court signaled that at least five justices believe the law to be unconstitutional, when it overturned a previous Fifth Circuit ruling lifting a trial court injunction against implementation of the Texas law. For reasons I summarized here, I agree with the Eleventh Circuit's approach, and believe the Texas and Florida laws violate the First Amendment's guarantee of freedom of speech. In this post, I argue that these laws also violate the Takings Clause of the Fifth Amendment.
The Takings Clause bars government from taking "private property" without paying "just compensation." In its 2021 ruling in Cedar Point Nursery v. Hassid, the Supreme Court ruled (correctly, in my view) that even a temporary government-mandated "physical occupation" or invasion of private property counts as a per se taking, automatically requiring compensation. Thus, the Court struck down a California law requiring agricultural growers to grant access to their property to union organizers. The Court emphasized that "[t]he right to exclude is universally held to be a fundamental element of the property right," and that violations of that right presumptively qualify as takings.
The Florida and Texas social media laws are also blatant attacks on the right to exclude. No one doubts that the Twitter site and its various features are Twitter's private property. And the whole point of the Florida and Texas laws is to force Twitter and other social media firms to grant access to users and content the firms would prefer to exclude, particularly various right-wing users. Just as the plaintiffs in Cedar Point wanted to bar union organizers from their land, so Twitter wishes to bar some content it finds abhorrent (or that might offend or annoy other users).
To be sure, there are obvious differences between virtual property, such as a website, and more conventional physical property, like that involved in the Cedar Point case. But the Taking Clause nonetheless applies to both. If Texas decided to seize the Twitter site, bar current users, and instead fill it with content praising the state government's policies, that would pretty obviously be a taking, much like if California decided to seize the Cedar Point tree nursery's land. In the same way, requiring Twitter to host unwanted content qualifies as an occupation of its property, no less than requiring a landowner to give access to unwanted entrants. The Supreme Court has previously ruled that intellectual property is protected by the Takings Clause. Websites present similar issues.
One could argue that forcing a website owner to host unwanted users isn't really a "physical occupation," because the property is virtual in nature. But websites, including the big social media firms, use physical server space. Other things equal, a site with more user-generated content requires more such space than one with less. Even aside from the connection to physical infrastructure, it seems to me that occupation of virtual "real estate" is analogous to occupation of land. Both are valuable forms of private property from which the owner generally has a right to exclude.
In Cedar Point, the Supreme Court did note some exceptions to the rule that government-mandated occupations of property qualify as takings. The one most relevant to the social media case is that for locations "generally open to the public," such as shopping malls. In his majority opinion in Cedar Point, Chief Justice John Roberts used this theory to distinguish the Supreme Court's 1980 decision in Pruneyard Shopping Center v. Robins, which held that a shopping mall could not bar people who wanted to leaflet on its property.
For reasons outlined in two articles by Prof. Gregory Sisk (see here and here), I think Pruneyard was a bad decision and should be overruled. But, in the meantime, it is readily distinguishable from the Texas and Florida social media laws. Despite appearances, sites like Twitter and Facebook are not "generally open to the public" in the sense that anyone who wants to can post content on the site. Rather, they are only open to those who agree to the sites' terms of services. As Twitter's terms of service, for example, make clear, "[y]ou may use the Services only if you agree to form a binding contract with Twitter and are not a person barred from receiving services under the laws of the applicable jurisdiction." The contract in question includes acceptance of Twitter's content moderation rules. Few if any shopping malls have similar access restrictions!
Cedar Point outlines a few other exceptions to the rule that physical occupations are per se takings. Examples include regulatory health and safety inspections. By similar logic, websites that, for example, sell potentially dangerous goods and services, might be required to post warnings about the possible risks. In addition, the "police power" sometimes creates a general exception to takings liability, as when police must enter a property to execute a search warrant. But none of these other exceptions even come close to justifying the Florida and Texas social media laws.
If government imposition of unwanted content on websites does not qualify as a taking, it would have dire implications for a wide range of websites, not just social media providers. The government could similarly force a wide range of other sites to accept unwanted content. Unscrupulous politicians and interest groups could take the opportunity to force all kinds of websites to promote their preferred content, or at least bar them from excluding content that the site owners disapprove of. Such a regime would be a serious menace to online property rights, though the consequences would be far less dire if the social media firms prevail in the current free speech litigation.
Unlike the Eleventh Circuit decision holding that the Florida social media law violates the First Amendment, a ruling that such a law violates the Takings Clause wouldn't necessarily bar states from enacting and enforcing such legislation. The could still do so, so long as they paid "just compensation," which usually means the "fair market value" of the property taken.
Calculating the amount of compensation due in a case like this might be complicated. In the case of many would-be users (those with few potential followers), the market value of a Twitter or Facebook account could be very low. But the aggregate compensation for forcing social media firms to accept large numbers of unwanted users could still be very large, perhaps large enough to deter states from passing such legislation in the first place.
The present litigation against the Florida and Texas laws does not involve Takings Clause claims. But such claims could potentially be filed in the future, especially in the Texas case, where the law seems likely to go into effect, unless and until the Supreme Court reverses the Fifth Circuit ruling on the First Amendment issue. If social media firms choose to pursue this issue, they could well prevail - and certainly deserve to do so.
UPDATE: I have made minor changes to this post.
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if we're going to have concepts such as public accommodation and common carrier they should go both ways. Not just in whatever direction benefits leftists in a particular situation.
next, do the lockdowns: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3567003
If the progressives dont consider the eviction mortatorium to be a taking, then why would enlighted progressives consider the lockdowns to be a taking
fwiw, the per capita cumulative covid death rate for the 65+ group was remarkably similar across almost all the states (as of Nov 2021) irrespective of the level of mitigation protocols enacted and enforced across the various states. (a range of 1120-175 per 100k ).
Seems like someone already did?
Lots of academics out there with different interests. The fact they're not writing about whatever is interesting to you doesn't really tell you whether they're right or wrong about the topic in question.
I agree. My reaction was, "Cool, do hotels next."
I like the Constitution. I think we'd be a better country if we upheld it with a rigor that would likely give Somin the leaping fantods. But you reach a point where you just want some GOD DAMNED CONSISTENCY. Either uphold a clause or don't. Don't just uphold it when one party likes, and violate it when the same party approves!
My other thought was, "Wait, you think that contract with Twitter is binding? Like, on Twitter? That's a funny one.
We have been over how your interpretation of twitters terms of service is utterly wrong.
But you never seem to ever change these takes of yours based on outside input.
And it continues to amaze me that you look at the current Court and think it’s gonna be inconsistent and partisan….for the left.
You sound upset. And wrong as usual.
Right, how many members of the current Court voted for Obergefell?
What the left calls a "conservative" Court is just one that isn't relentlessly left wing, one where they occasionally lose.
But only occasionally. There are wide swaths of 'liberal' victories the Court is OK with.
No, you're just so far over on the right that you've decided conservative outcomes are the One True Way, and anything to the left of that is 'relentlessly left wing.' The issue is with your perspective, not mine.
One way to tell this is that your take requires you to discard the majority of historical jurisprudence, but such hubris has never bothered you. Still, it does make for some pretty remarkable comments, such as saying the current Court is not conservative.
LOL, Bret. And also LMAO.
Two? Was that supposed to be a trick question?
Well, hotels might be deemed something open to all like a common carrier. But how about the application of the Fair Housing Act to landlords?
consistency - common carrier - taking, etc
Hotel of atlanta
phillip bakery
covid evict mortitorium
That was my reaction as well - if it's unconstitutional now, why weren't the prior common carrier laws unconstitutional? Prof Somin spends a lot of time distinguishing recent cases but not those.
Maybe he thinks they were too? He wasn't lawyering when those situations arose so didn't get the opportunity to blog about them. Somin seems like an actual libertarian, so my guess is he'd be opposed to those rules as well.
If that were the case, then I would expect a post from a law professor to specify the precedents that need to be overturned. His failure to address those precedents suggests that he either agrees with them (which seems to me to be contradictory to the legal arguments above) or thinks they are irrelevant for reasons that are not at all obvious to the rest of us (which, since a professor's job is to educate, means he should explain them).
IANAL, but my best take on this is that Twitter and friends are not public communications utilities and are not state-protected monopolies. One can live a full and uncomplicated life without social media but access to general telecommunications services is a necessity for the majority of citizens.
If the citizens, via the government, give a company a monopoly in order to provide a service (like the AT&T poles down my street), then the public has an interest in the way the service is provided. It isn't a taking, I believe, if the company is getting something in exchange for it.
My private real estate is regulated by numerous "takings" that government imposes without my consent. If these web site choose not to be public fora, how can they use bandwidth that common carriers make available to them, even for a fee? There is great murkiness in the view that a service open to all except those with whom the service provider disagrees is not unlawfully discriminating on the basis of viewpoint against the excluded.
IANAL, but I'm certain that there is a vast difference between regulation and takings.
But I could be wrong about your particular case. What takings are you referring to? Please be specific.
You are pointing out the problem with Somin's analysis: every regulation would be a taking, because pretty much by definition, each regulation deprives some owners of some right to use their property as they choose.
I agree. But he laid out a legal argument that, although it seems to be way too broad and oversimplified, is at least plausible to a non-lawyer like me.
That's why I asked for more details. The thing about the law is that details matter. I find that generalized objections or obviously misleading comparisons ring false. And that appears to be what is happening here.
There's a whole area of Fourth Amendment jurisprudence that addresses "regulatory takings". They are treated very differently from direct physical takings -- the government gets a lot more deference. Somin's argument is long on "should" and short on engaging with actual precedent.
Thank you, Michael. This is what I was looking for.
Is there some sort of framework established by past precedent that identifies when a regulation crosses the line and becomes a taking?
Also, is there a distiction made between physical and non-physical takings? For example, would Google's algorithm be something covered by takings? Or would that be a different area of law?
I'm not a lawyer, much less an expert on the Takings Clause, but the Wikipedia article gives the impression of very irregular jurisprudence -- particularly with Penn Central as the "lodestar" for regulatory takings -- and almost all of it is very tightly tied to real property, rather than capital resources like servers or software.
There is very much a distinction made between physical and non-physical takings, and even between physical occupation by third parties versus equipment like smoke detectors (as highlighted by Justice Blackmun's dissent in Loretto v. Teleprompter Manhattan CATV Corp.). Your question about "Google's algorithm" probably hinges on specific facts: What is the "algorithm" (a trade secret, a patented invention, source code, something else)? What is the government action or compulsion? What is the effect on Google's commercial use and competitive advantage?
There's generally no such thing as "unlawfully discriminating on the basis of viewpoint".
Of course. All regulation we don't like is a taking. Who needs the rest of the bill of rights anyway? Police brutality? Taking! Ban on public prayer? Taking! Excessive bail? Taking!
Nice mixed bag, half of which no one else thinks of as a taking. There are so many easy and natural examples, yet you resort to silly ones. Why is that?
Because this entire line of reasoning is silly, stretching the concept of a taking beyond all reasonable boundaries in order to achieve a libertarian paradise of some sort.
Ilya thinks simping the Left will earn him their respect. He is badly mistaken.
Should he continue to pander to the bigoted and backward, making himself a culture war casualty?
When has he pandered to the faculty of Oberlin College?
He continues to associate with a white, male, right-wing blog that flings racial slurs regularly and lauds the likes of John Eastman and Ted Cruz. That is the pandering to bigotry and backwardness that makes one a culture war casualty in modern, improving, reasoning America -- especially the better elements of America.
Professor Somin seems like...a libertarian. On this particular topic it means he is in favor of letting the tech companies do what they want. If you were to ask him whether the government should do single-payer healthcare I imagine his views wouldn't be very aligned with people on the left.
Lol this is Ilya trying to critique a terrible decision without sounding like a leftie, and it shows.
The argument on it's face is ridiculous, because nothing is being taken. The government is merely altering the relationship between the consumers and social media companies which the government has done many times in the past, from lemon laws, public accommodations laws, fair lending laws, etc.
Nobody calls those takings.
They may well have a first amendment argument, but not a takings argument.
Libertarians do.
That is why most people view "true" libertarians as .... kinda nuts.
Somin's (and many hardcore libertarians') problem is that their principles might be fine if one were setting up a society from scratch. But we are not. We have long-standing traditions and laws and cultural/societal structures, and trying to graft certain libertarian principles onto them (like open borders, or the notion that all regulation is a 5th amendment taking) leads to absurd results.
For example, open borders only make sense (a) if all, or at least most, countries reciprocate, and (b) the open-bordered society itself is very libertarian in nature, with minimal (if any) govt-run programs.
Similarly, there is no way for the government to fairly compensate each property owner for each regulatory taking to which he is subject. When you think about the scope and expense of such an endeavor, you realize how silly it is.
I am not one, but I suppose a libertarian would agree with your last paragraph, and argue that therefore the answer would be drastically less regulation, since it constitutes taking and government would have to pay massive amounts of compensation.
If the value created by takings is enough to justify them, paying the compensation would be affordable. The very reluctance to pay compensation indicates an awareness that a taking doesn't actually create much in the way of value. That's a general principle, anyway.
The trouble is that many "regulatory takings" are not takings at all, any more than laws against shoplifting are takings.
If you use your property in a way that damages others - by polluting the air, for example - a regulation stopping you does not take anything to which you are entitled.
You have no inherent right to use the air to dump your waste, any more than you have a right to dump your garbage in the street.
If web hosting providers don't get carte blanche exemptions from all discrimination laws from the first amendment, then it’s hard to see how a video hosting provider like YouTube gets that exemption. They’re not different.
Yes, YouTube is a publisher. What's your point?
YouTube is a hosting provider for videos. Hosting is not publishing.
They can claim to also be a publisher, but that shouldn’t let them get away with illegal discrimination when they are just hosting.
YouTube is a Platform as a Service (PaaS) provider that people use to publish videos.
Shawn-Dude — Nope. Publishing is an identifiable activity, with recognizable component actions. People who post videos to YouTube perform none of those publishing actions, and thus are not publishers. The publisher is YouTube, which does perform publishing actions. The publication thus accomplished is a joint action, between a publisher and a contributor or author. YouTube is the publisher. The other party is the contributor.
If a hotel requires guests to sign a guest register, can they claim to be the "publisher" of the guest registry and therefore, since it’s a creative work and they’re the "publisher", they get a first amendment right to discriminate against guests?
No. Hotels are a well-established public accommodation. They do get to discriminate against people with pets, people who smoke, and similar customers whose activities might damage their business.
The government is literally telling someone that they don't get to decide how their own property is used, based purely on the content of the non-owner's speech.
That's a bit more than 'merely altering the relationship between the consumers and social media companies.'
There are almost endless examples of the government imposing exactly that kind of regulation on other businesses that claim to serve the public. Those other regulations have been upheld, even in cases that involve much more expressive conduct by the business owner.
And yet you don’t mention any.
Hrm.
They've been mentioned elsewhere in this thread. Business can't discriminate on the basis of race, religion, sex, national origin, disability, and more. This has been applied even to wedding photographers and bakers, who have much more input into the work they create. https://www.advocate.com/news/2021/12/16/wedding-photographer-loses-case-against-new-york-antidiscrimination-laws
But you act ignorant of these things. Hrm.
It's not an act. It's willful ignorance.
Since when are election denying and COVID denying protected classes? Private companies are free to enforce content standards. It’s not the government doing the enforcement.
The moment a law is passed banning discrimination on the basis of viewpoint -- such as this Texas law.
Seriously, it's not like there's a limited number of "protected classes" enumerated in the Constitution. Such classes are designated by statute, and there's nothing preventing a state legislature from adding new ones.
Setting aside your seeming argument that it’s OK to make election denying and Covid denying protected classes, these laws do no such thing. They just force platforms like Twitter to let people post whatever they want. They are not tailored.
As a matter of law, it's obviously perfectly okay to add new protected classes. As a matter of policy, people can debate all day whether a given category should be protected.
As far as "tailored", it's "tailored" to ban discrimination on the basis of viewpoint. Which is made explicitly clear in Sec. 143A.002(b), which says "This section applies regardless of whether the viewpoint is expressed on a social media platform or through any other medium."
DRM — Laws cannot discriminate on the basis of viewpoint. But liberty to discriminate based on viewpoint is the essence of speech freedom, and press freedom. You cannot have those freedoms without that liberty.
Please do not attempt to counter with objections about protected classes. I want to avoid wandering into the minefields of racial discrimination.
Stephen Lathrop --
At which point you're making a pure First Amendment argument, that the First Amendment rights of a business owner choosing what views they'll express with their business override the government's interest in protecting its properly-designated protected classes. Which is fine, but then it applies to artists --photographers, cake bakers, etc.-- choosing what messages they're willing to express with the art they're hired to create, too.
And no, viewpoints can't be uniquely called out as not subject to a protected class being made about them. Religion has been included as a protected class in non-discrimination law for a long, long time, and religions are fundamentally just a restricted class of viewpoints. If the First Amendment bars Twitter from being required to transmit election denial, it also bars a cakeshop from being required to ice a cake to say "Happy Bar Mitzvah, Isaac!"
DRM, your point seems to be that any words necessarily express a viewpoint so the government must not allow anyone to restrict words. That’s not how speech law works.
"Viewpoint" is not a 'properly designated protected class,' because the First Amendment prohibits the Government from making such a judgment call about viewpoints and thus enforcing those views onto others.
You have the entire horse and cart situation completely backwards.
Darwinnie --
Your apparent point seems to be that you are illiterate.
I am not, in any way, suggesting the government must not allow anyone to restrict words. I am simply saying that a state government has the power to designate viewpoint as a protected class (as Texas has), and then working out exactly what an exercise of that power implies under existing non-discrimination precedents.
Jason Cavanaugh --
That's an interesting legal theory of yours, but decades of religion being treated as a protected class demonstrates that it isn't a theory currently accepted by the US legal system. See also, say, California's longstanding state laws banning employment discrimination on the basis of political opinion. State governments clearly have, under existing law, a power to create protected classes based on belief and the expression of it.
It might. For ordinary commercial purposes. A state may be able to say that a restaurant or clothing store or hospital can't refuse to provide service to someone because of that person's politics. But we're not talking about commerce; we're talking about pure speech.
Selling shampoo is not protected by the first amendment; selling speech is.
A state cannot tell people that they must disseminate speech that they find objectionable, because that infringes on their free speech rights. Just like a state cannot tell a church that it must hire a religious teacher whose views are objectionable, because that infringes on the church's free exercise rights.
Designating viewpoint as a protected class? That’s complete nonsense.
DRM,
You do realize that religion is expressly mentioned as a protected viewpoint in the Constitution, right?
None of the anti-discrimination statutes are based on the speech of a third-party overriding the speech rights of the property owner.
Keep swinging.
Pruneyard
The fifth circuit addresses your sophomoric argument. Under 230 the companies claim they are protected from the speech of others. They are not publishers. Comments and videos are not speech of the companies. There is no 1a protection here. The Texas laws deal woth consumer interactions of the business. Not their speech.
90 pages addresses this idiotic argument.
Comments and videos are not speech of the companies.
Almost correct, but not correct enough.
You seem to be arguing that there is no problem with a, "hosted," comment, if it will not be misconstrued to represent the view of the publisher. A problem with that is that even if it is true, it is the publisher's publishing activity which gives the comment public expression. The publisher assembles the audience for the comment. The publisher devises a means to deliver the comment to that audience. The publisher monetizes the audience, often by sale of advertising, sometimes in other ways, to pay the costs necessary to accomplish the public expression of the comment.
So even if the content is not what the publisher wanted said itself, or even if it is contrary to what the publisher does say, your advocacy is that the publisher should still be compelled by government to actively further a publication the publisher disfavors. The 1A press freedom clause protects publishers from that kind of government coercion.
On the plus side, government cannot interfere with you if you can perform the activities necessary to accomplish publication yourself. The freedom of everyone to do that is the essence of the press freedom guarantee.
So your expressive freedom has not been damaged. 1A press freedom protects you just as it protects whatever publishers you demand that the government target for compulsion. When you can accomplish publishing, government cannot compel you either.
You may think that sounds like a taunt. In present circumstances I can understand why you would think so. The publishing landscape features such dominant giants that entry by others seems to many to be impractical, or even impossible.
That should point you to a solution to your problem better than the government coercion you cannot have. Join in political advocacy for unconditional repeal of Section 230. That is the political blunder which enabled competition-suppressing giantism in the first place.
The only safe harbor for press freedom ever found has been public policy to encourage profusion and diversity among a host of mutually adversarial private publishers. In those conditions, no giant players can so dominate the publishing landscape that competing opinions cannot find an outlet. To protect diversity of opinion going forward, there is urgent need to get this nation back to that kind of reliance, instead of reliance on government coercion to promote whatever views successful advocates can persuade government to enforce. Your sensible alternative is to join public advocacy to repeal unconditionally Section 230.
No; under § 230 Congress legislated that they are "protected from [liablity for] the speech of others"
That's completely wrong as a legal theory, even if it were factually correct (which it isn't). Is Mein Kampf the speech of Barnes & Noble? Obviously not; it's the speech of Adolf Hitler. Does that mean that the government can compel Barnes & Noble to sell Mein Kampf?
The New York Times routinely publishes letters to the editor. Those letters don't necessarily represent its views; they publish letters they disagree with as well as ones they agree with. The letters themselves aren't the NYT's speech; they're the speech of the individual authors. But that of course does not mean that the government can compel the NYT to publish letters it does not want to publish; that's because the selection of which letters to publish is the NYT's speech.
"The letters themselves aren't the NYT's speech; they're the speech of the individual authors."
Speaking as somebody who used to frequently write letters to the editor, and often got something vaguely resembling them published, nope. The papers all reserve the right to re-write your letter, cutting things, changing word choices, even to the point of occasionally reversing the meaning of what you had actually written. Those letters, once the paper gets through editing them, absolutely are the NYT's speech, just as much as the cliche'd ransom note was the work of the kidnapper, even if all the individual words and letters were cut out of various magazines.
A great deal of any publication's speech will have originated in some form or other with somebody outside the publication; What makes it the publication's speech is the control they exercise over what appears in their pages.
What makes a platform a platform, rather than a publisher, is exactly that lack of editorial control.
Again: that makes the fact that they chose to include it their speech; it doesn't make the content their speech. I assure you that the NYT was not advocating that the military start shooting BLM protesters when they published Tom Cotton's Op/Ed to that effect. The NYT speech in that situation was, "Prominent Republicans are saying this and you, the public, should be aware of it."
"Platform" is a made up word that has no foundation in the 1A or Section 230. But regardless, by your definition, Twitter et al are not "platforms," because they do have editorial control. It's explained very clearly in the terms of service when you sign up for an account, and they routinely exercise it in various ways, from promoting certain content to deleting certain content.
@David.
I find the text of section 230 here to be informative.
"(1)Treatment of publisher or speaker
No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider."
Since, by law, they are not treated as the publisher or speaker of the information, they don't have free speech rights in regards to it...
Bellmore, did you ever get a letter edited by the NYT? Before they started allowing comment online, I wrote them some letters, and some got published. They edited almost every published letter, but never without contacting me, reviewing the proposed changes in advance, and getting my agreement. I never had occasion to object. Every change was either an outright improvement, or anodyne.
Since, by law, they are not treated as the publisher or speaker of the information, they don't have free speech rights in regards to it...
Armchair Lawyer — Congress may have power to suspend liability for libel from a favored class of publishers, which is what Section 230 did. It has no power to make an actual publisher into something else by legal decree. Under the Press Freedom clause of the 1A, a publisher gets discretion at pleasure for every jot and tittle it wishes to publish, or to decline to publish. Government may not interfere.
No, that's not how it works. Congress cannot strip rights away from speakers by saying that states can't treat them as speakers. 230 is a Congressional restriction on state power, not a change in the nature of the ICS's actual business.
I don't know what about the fact that this involves the Internet that leads to such confusion. Congress can pass a law saying "Bookstores are important to a functioning democracy. Therefore, they shall not be liable for defamation for any of the books they sell, period."¹ That would not serve to strip Barnes & Noble of the right to decide what books it wanted to sell.
¹At common law, a distributor such as a bookstore can be held liable for defamation only if it has actual knowledge that a book is defamatory.
That's an interesting question David...
If a bookseller chose to sell a book full of national secrets...say the nuclear launch codes...could the US government stop it? I would say yes, the US government would have the power to top such sales. Wouldn't you?
And in fact, both the US and State governments have a long history in regulating what stores can...and cannot..sell.
And in fact, booksellers are not liable for defamation for the books they sell. They are merely sellers of the books. They are not speakers or publishers.
@Steven,
Section 230 did exactly that. It said that "No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider."
Now if that's unconstitutional....And section 230 is deemed unconstitutional...we have a different ball of wax. Best to dump your Twitter and Facebook stock now.
I would not, no. Did you miss the Pentagon Papers case?
Not bookstores. Unless the material is constitutionally unprotected in the first place, like obscenity.
But you changed my hypo rather than addressing it. I didn't ask whether the government could stop a bookstore from selling something; I asked whether the government could order a bookstore to sell something.
It's like you didn't bother to read before posting. They are not speakers or publishers; they are distributors. And distributors can indeed be liable for defamation for the things they distribute. But they have to have actual knowledge of the defamation first.
You seriously think that if a bookstore tried to sell the literal nuclear launch codes...that the US government couldn't legally stop them?
You've gone to absurd levels.
I mean, I'd argue that you're the one who has gone to absurd levels. How did a bookstore get nuclear launch codes in the first place? On what planet would the government's response to someone (1) obtaining the nuclear launch codes, (2) putting them into book form, (3) publishing the book, and then (4) trying to sell it at Barnes & Noble be to go to court to try to stop this distribution, rather than just changing the launch codes?
If "the launch codes" is meant to be merely synecdoche for "highly classified national security information," then I reiterate: familiarize yourself with the Pentagon Papers case.
They can, however, discriminate based on drunkenness, improper attire, loud or obnoxious behavior, past misconduct at their business, etc.
Viewpoints you disagree with are eobnoxious or drunkenness. Got it.
Does any leftist think logically?
That's stupid even for you.
Try building a structure on your property without a permit.
Not relevant to the conversation but an important subject, regardless. Zoning laws and licensing requirements are a huge problem.
Jason, The government has literally given the same companies exemptions from certain laws based on how their property is used in Section 230. The companies have, in the opinion of many, misused those exemptions. So the governments are taking back a part of what they originally gave. So the real question is whether rolling back an exemption considered a taking.
Analogy: Can the government reduce your welfare payment, or is that a taking?
Tell me that you don't understand "Section 230" without telling me you don't understand it.
No mention of California AB 587? It is interesting -- and quite telling -- that the post focuses on bills in Florida and Texas while ignoring the California bill which in part uses identical language.
Is forcing a restaurant to permit patronage by non-whites a taking? After all, the seat used by the non-white is being "taken" from the pool available to the restaurant's preferred clientele. Is prohibiting a bar from selling alcohol to adults under age 21 a taking? After all, an adult is being "taken" from the bar's potential pool of customers. Is requiring a freight train to transport adult magazines a taking? After all, the train company whose cargo space is being "taken" doesn't want to promote such adult material.
But why are the Texas and Florida bills "takings" while the California bill is apparently not considered to be such? Yeah, I do get it: it is a "taking" only if it is not also "woke," just as a border should be open so long as such openness in no way inconveniences the oligarchy.
>Is forcing a restaurant to permit patronage by non-whites a taking? After
>all, the seat used by the non-white is being "taken" from the pool
>available to the restaurant's preferred clientele. Is prohibiting a bar from
>selling alcohol to adults under age 21 a taking? After all, an adult is
>being "taken" from the bar's potential pool of customers. Is requiring a
>freight train to transport adult magazines a taking? After all, the train
>company whose cargo space is being "taken" doesn't want to promote
>such adult material.
I would like to hear Ilya respond to this.
So would I.
My response:
No.
No.
No.
No.
Are there some harder questions coming?
Also California's attempt to force private companies to seat people on their executive board based solely on sex. For every major 'taking' or government interference by Texas or Florida you could probably list 10 for california but Ilya is basically a 90s style 'libertarian' who cares more about adhering to the 'socially liberal/economically conservative' meme of how libertarians used to be decades ago than actually targeting the worst government overreaches stuff, that libertarianism is supposedly all about.
I'm curious to hear why libertarians aren't, generally speaking, socially liberal and fiscally conservative any longer.
Cultural conservatism requires force, since it is their cultural values that are being left behind. The far left does the same thing in trying to accelerate the changes society is engaged in. Libertarians reject both.
Without force, cultural conservatism would fail. The average American has been moving towards secular, evidence-based, egalitarian, and tolerant beliefs for over 60 years. The only way for cultural conservatives to prevent people from making their own decisions is legislation. Definitely not libertarian.
Without force, cultural liberalism would be slowed. The far left is engaged in the same authoritarian behavior as cultural conservatives, but if they didn't use legislation and government force their beliefs wouldn't disappear.
So libertarians, who support individual decisions and resist government force, are socially more liberal than conservative. Moderately so, but definitely not conservative.
The same goes for fiscal beliefs, but in the other direction. Given personal choices and decisions, people would resist overregulation and barriers to economic participation like unnecessary licensing requirements. That is definitely more conservative although, like the far left in the social realm, the far right has succumbed to outcome-based policies.
The command-economy, top-down, free-market-hostile beliefs of the left are the opposite of libertarian. Overregulation and legislation, instead of incentivising through capitalist policies, in anathema to libertarianism.
So yes. Libertarians are, broadly speaking, socially liberal and fiscally conservative. More importantly they are largely moderate since they support individual rights and decision-making. Social and fiscal change comes slowly over time, when allowed to evolve naturally, and trends towards freedom and liberty.
More specifically, those who are socially conservative and fiscally conservative are conservative, not libertarian. Which you don't seem to accept.
"I'm curious to hear why libertarians aren't, generally speaking, socially liberal and fiscally conservative any longer."
Because we never were except in the vaguest of senses.
"Socially liberal and fiscally conservative" was a handy shorthand, but never really described the situation. For instance, the libertarian movement back in the 70's and 80's made the NRA look like a gun control organization; That might be 'socially liberal' in the sense of being in favor of liberty on a social issue, but it sure as heck didn't align with the views of political 'liberals' on the topic.
And today the shorthand has totally broken down, as the political axis are shifting. The political 'liberals' are getting much more comfortable with censorship, for instance, as they get even worse on guns, while the political 'conservatives' have come around to a better view on the topic. (I do NOT count the government deciding what it's own agents say on the clock as "censorship", by the way.)
But there has been a change, yes. A couple decades ago there was this "liberalitarian" alliance some libertarians tried with the left. Many of us warned that the left were famously good at subverting organizations, and you had to be VERY careful doing anything together with them, but we didn't get listened to.
Somin is more of a "liberalitarian" than a libertarian. It's a warped form of libertarianism, that downplays the aspects the left dislikes, and turns up to parody levels the parts the left approves of. (Such as permitting large companies to impose the left's agenda, on the theory they're not 'the government'.)
Fair points, but one of the things that drew me to libertarianism (small l) was their willingness to accept heterodoxy and the core principles of the NAP and individual liberty.
For example, I am often accused of being a leftist in these comments because of my opposition to legislative coercion surrounding moral beliefs or calling out false equivelence (or oversimplified or "they do it, too") arguments by the various paleoconservative commenters here. Yet I support the right to keep and bear arms because it is a Constitutionally-protected right. While I believe that there are responsibilities inherent in gun ownership, the idiocy of "high caoacity magazines" or waiting periods should be opposed.
I would agree that the far left has come to support the same sort of coercive and anti-liberty ethos that the far right has for decades. But I still see the average center-left and (and even center-right) citizen as more accepting of nuance and heterodoxy. But the center of gravity on the right has shifted more than on the left. Moderate conservatives have lost their battle while moderate liberals still dominate. The longer cultural conservatives dominate the right, the harder it will be for the center-left, but they still hold the advantage.
It is impossible to objectively look at America today and claim that moderate liberals still dominate the left -- or even that the left has any significant liberalism left. The modern American left is defined by a rush to indoctrinate children with Communist ideologies, to insist that American history is full of evil, and to destroy excellence in a fit of low-expectations bigotry. The recent treatment of James Sweet, president of the American Historical Association, is a good example -- rather than allow even mild criticism of The 1619 Project, leftists mobbed him with race-based attacks and lobbed entirely unsupported, scurrilous accusations at him.
Meanwhile, the typical center-right American is more liberal and accepting than almost any left-of-center politician of 30 or even 20 years ago. Even the far right today is more tolerant than most of that era's left.
"The modern American left is defined by a rush to indoctrinate children with Communist ideologies,"
That's not accurate. If it were, Bernie Sanders would have been Trump's opponent in 2020, not Biden.
"to insist that American history is full of evil"
I try to avoid the word "evil" except for in the most obvious cases (Nazi Germany, Soviet Russia, or slavery, for example) because it assumes a certain viewpoint that almost always isn't generally held.
America has done some awful things in the past. That is universal in history. No country has every been purely good. The thing that makes America better than most is that we acknowledge the awful things and try to mitigate them. We strive to uphold our ideals and, if we fail, we try to mitigate the damage.
"to destroy excellence in a fit of low-expectations bigotry"
Bigotry, like evil, should be used sparingly and only when it is relevant. Claiming that anything that happens to a black person is racism is nonsense. Claiming that attempts to mitigate the effects of government-sponsored racism in the recent past is bigotry is equally unconvincing. It is ineffective and a terrible policy, but it isn't bigotry. I agree completely about James Sweet (and the extremism of the 1619 Project's premise), but claiming those voices are center-left isn't supportable.
The far right (like the far left) isn't tolerant by any stretch. I agree that the center right is more tolerant than in the past and is as tolerant as the center left. At this point moderate liberals and conservatives have more in common with each other than with the fringes of their parties.
I don't think it's possible given the massive power of the two parties and their vested interests in keeping at each others' throats, but if there was ever a time when conditions were ripe for a moderate party to occupy the political center, this is it. Leave DeSantis and Newsom, Taylor-Greene and AOC, Sanders and Cruz, and the other wingnuts in their intolerant corners and occupy the space in between where the reasonable people live. It won't happen, but it's nice to dream.
'At this point moderate liberals and conservatives have more in common'
What moderate conservatives? Any truly moderate conservatives are already voting Democrat. The ones demanding Democrats adopt conservative positions before they vote for them aren't really moderate.
'Leave DeSantis and Newsom, Taylor-Greene and AOC, Sanders and Cruz,'
What an amazing parade of false equivalences.
There are plenty of moderate conservatives. They are overpowered by the opportunistic transactionalists, those who believe one party is good and the other is evil, and the true believers in cultural stagnation and theocracy, but that is a balance-of-power problem within the GOP, not an indication that there are no moderate conservatives.
My list wasn't comparing the policies of each pair, but pointing out that extremists exist in both parties and are the marquee names that everyone recognizes. The wingnuts get all the attention, which is why you know who everyone I listed is.
Like I said, the true moderates are already voting for Democrats, and the list of pirings of 'extremists on both sides' merely illustrates why.
You sound exactly like the paleocons from elsewhere in these comments, just with the definition of "moderate" skewed in your favor. The majority of Americans lean one way or the other, but aren't beholden to either the cultural self-righteousness of the GOP or the economic idiocy of the Dems. That is what a moderate is.
And for your side's sake, you'd better hope that moderate conservatives aren't already voting for Dems or as soon as the GOP gets their heads out of their sanctemonious asses the Dems won't win an election ever again. Their margins of victory won't allow for the loss of many voters.
I don't hold out for much hope for ANY Republicans: look what they did to their own Party.
'rather than allow even mild criticism of The 1619 Project, leftists mobbed him with race-based attacks and lobbed entirely unsupported, scurrilous accusations at him'
I wonder what sorts of attacks the 1619 Project was subjected to? Besides, you're mad that people defended something with passion? People aren't supposed to defend things! Not THOSE people, anyway!
Pointers on libertarianism from Birther Brett -- a bigoted, antisocial, autistic, gullible, right-wing misfit -- are always a treat, particularly when they are directed toward Prof. Somin.
Carry on, clingers . . . so long as you continue to comply with the preferences of better Americans. You need not agree, and you can whine about it as much as you like, but you will comply.
permitting large companies to impose the left's agenda, on the theory they're not 'the government
And if "imposing the left's agenda" is a profitable policy?
Do you honestly believe business executives care more about "the left's agenda" than they do profitability?
(I know that you, rather foolishly, believe that in some cases, but most??)
You make the same argument made in previous decades to defend other discriminatory behavior: They were only doing what the market (or government) demanded, for their businesses to succeed. Cognitive biases can badly distort judgment about what is profitable, and societal or governmental hostility to fair dealing can actually make fair treatment unprofitable.
Cognitive bias isn't part of a balance sheet. It may be part of the assessment of opportunity costs or market impact, which are inherently subjective due to their reliance on "what would have happened if we did something differently" projections, but it is irrelevant to the asessment of profitability.
They were only doing what the market (or government) demanded, for their businesses to succeed.
I'm glad you understand that market forces can reinforcediscrimination. That demonstrates the need for civil rights legislation, and that "the market will fix it" is a silly argument.
Cognitive biases can badly distort judgment about what is profitable, and societal or governmental hostility to fair dealing can actually make fair treatment unprofitable.
They can, sometimes, not always. But even if these decisions are the result of those biases, they are still being made because the company thinks they are profitable, not because, as Brett claims, corporate managements nationwide are part of some leftist conspiracy.
But the thing is that American business is no longer dominated by companies run by their owners, who value the profitability of the company because it's THEIR profits. The majority of economic activity is through corporations with institutional owners and professional management, which have little stake in the profitability or even survival of the companies they're running.
They could pay themselves, pay taxes on the income, and then out of that after tax income spend their own money to advance their favorite causes.
Or they can divert corporate resources to support their favorite causes, spending much more than they could get away with paying themselves, and not pay any taxes on it.
Running the company so as to advance personal causes at cost to the bottom line, then, becomes an attractive form of self-dealing. It's very widespread in publicly held companies.
It's nonexistent in publicly held companies. If dumbest arguments were an Olympic sport, you just topped your personal best in setting a world record.
"Owners and managers of businesses have little stake in the profitability or survival of their companies!"
institutional owners and professional management, which have little stake in the profitability or even survival of the companies they're running.
This is utterly idiotic.
First, the institutional owners are quite interested in profitability. Remember, you are talking about mutual funds, pension funds, investment companies.
And of course these owners are in position to replace management which does poorly.
So the managers have the incentive to keep their well-paid jobs, and not to damage their prospects elsewhere by mismanagement. Running a company into bankruptcy is not an ideal career move.
And of course incentive pay is often a big part of management compensation, not to mention that they typically hold shares and options in the company - not as many as Fidelity, say, but enough for the company's stock to be a big part of their personal wealth.
The idea that the CEO of a major company is going to ignore profitability to advance a left-wing political agenda is bizarre beyond belief.
That you have to stretch to that level of nonsense to support your argument proves what a terrible argument it is.
AB 587 just requires that the companies document their policies; it doesn't tell them what the policies have to be. That's a pretty significant distinction. To return to Professor Somin's analogy to the Cedar Point case, if California's union access law just said "you are required to put up a sign saying whether or not union organizers are allowed on your property" it seems pretty likely the Supreme Court would have upheld that.
If AB 587 merely required companies to post terms of service, it might be seen that way. But it would still be incredibly problematic, as Prof. Goldman has pointed out: what constitutes "terms of service," exactly? Does it include the things that every service already publishes — in which case, what's the point? — or does it include internal policies and such?
But AB 587 goes far beyond that and is unconstitutional for the same reasons that the Texas and Florida laws are. It requires them to provide detailed reports on their moderation decisions. The state of California cannot compel the Los Angeles Times to provide quarterly reports on what stories it has covered, how it has chosen to cover them, how many people read each of those stories, what complaints it received about that coverage, how it chose to respond to those complaints, how it uses automation to enforce its terms ("Hello, spammers: here's how we moderate. Please do not use this as a blueprint for getting around our practices. Thanks."). This is all about editorial judgment, and the government cannot require people to publicly explain their editorial judgment.
Moreover, not a lick of this passes even the rational basis test. None of this information is useful to consumers.
I'd appreciate a solid set of TOS that let me as a customer know what is and isn't allowed. It's not good practice to have a secret set of rules people can be banned for. There isn't a need to post the sort of detail that would assist spammers.
Since my advice to most people is to avoid social media, largely because it's not consumer-friendly, this doesn't affect me very often. If I wanted Xi and Putin to know more about me, I'd use TikTok, Grindr, and Facebook.
Walk into just about any restaurant or retail store, and you'll see a sign "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." Now, that has been circumscribed by public accommodations law — so they can't refuse service based on membership in a protected class — but it otherwise stands. They are not required to enumerate in advance each and every type of conduct that will get you expelled from the premises. That would be unwise and unworkable.
Sigh...
This isn't anymore a taking than mandating that businesses don't discriminate against African Americans is a taking.
"The Florida and Texas social media laws are also blatant attacks on the right to exclude."
Are laws that prevent businesses from discriminating against African Americans (if they so choose) a "blatant attack on the right to exclude". Yes. Does that mean the laws aren't still good, right and just? No. And just so in this case as well.
The "virtual real estate" in this case is minimal (in the extreme). This is not a newspaper with limited page space.
"Despite appearances, sites like Twitter and Facebook are not "generally open to the public" in the sense that anyone who wants to can post content on the site. Rather, they are only open to those who agree to the sites' terms of services."
This is a red herring. To use the example of hotels, for example. They could just have easily said "You need to agree to the terms of service to stay here, including showing skin darker than xxx color". It doesn't work. The hotel is generally open to the public. As is Twitter.
It's amazing to see a supposed "libertarian" start arguing against freedom of speech, and that a corporate monolith has every right to "select" who gets to speak and who doesn't...sometimes in consultation with the government.
That's an argument for freedom of speech.
Freedom of speech includes the right not to speak. It does not include the right to use someone else's property to speak.
(Though I don't know what a "corporate monolith" is.)
Sigh.... No.
Freedom of speech is, at its core, about open-ness to new ideas, concepts, and thought processes. By opening up the commons to as many concepts and ideas as possible, it allows for people to truly communicate.
Now, imagine for a moment, there were two organizations that produced paper in a given community. Imagine that this paper was used by publishers, printers, and so on to communicate ideas, concepts, and so on. "Freedom of speech" (or sometimes, freedom of the press, the two are often conflated).
Now imagine if these paper producers decided that two or three of these publications were "undesirable". For the sake of argument, call them "African American" publications. They didn't agree with their ideas. So, those paper producers decided that they would not sell to those publications. The publications wouldn't be able to produce their magazines, pamphlets, and newspapers. And in doing so, the common marketplace of ideas would be more limited. These "African American" viewpoints wouldn't be as widely expressed, and have been effectively suppressed.
Now, according to you, the manufacturers of the paper have simply expressed their right "not to speak". They have chosen not to have their product used to transmit the speech of people they disagree with. And that is entirely just.
But in reality, the manufacturers of the paper were never speaking directly about anything. Instead, they were merely allowing for the TRANSMISSION of ideas by others. And in their actions, they were effectively censor concepts and ideas they disagreed with.
To translate this to the current situation, when "Facebook" or "Twitter" posts something, no one actually considers Facebook or Twitter to be speaking about what is going on. If someone promotes the SF Giants or the newest video game or a piece of yarn work...people do not consider "Facebook" or "Twitter" to be speaking about the item in consideration. Instead, the person who posts the item is speaking about the item in consideration. Facebook or Twitter are simply acting as a method of transmission...much like the paper manufacturer. Or the telephone company, cable company, electric company, or any of another host of companies that allow for information transfer.
Now, imagine for a second if the electric company, or cable company or another mode of information transfer was owned by someone who had a socio-political difference from you. Then imagine if they "chose" to cut off service for your speech due to how they perceived your actions. Would you support them due to their freedom of speech? If PG&E for example (if you lived in CA) disagreed with what you were saying, could they cut off your service, because you were using their service to "force" them to transmit information they disagreed with? Wouldn't that just be "freedom of speech" on their part?
You're so confidently wrong that it's almost adorable.
Freedom of speech is the right to choose whether to speak your thoughts or not. If Twitter does not wish to use their property to amplify your speech, then such is their prerogative.
As to your analogies (in particular your idiotic PG&E one), surely you realize that you're the only person who thinks that comparison has any intellectual value at all? Do you not understand what a public utility is?
So, you're OK with forcing PG&E to use their equipment to transmit ideas they disagree with?
As I said previously, your analogy is dumb and inaccurate.
PG&E is not transmitting anything related to speech.
Uh huh...
And how do you think the electricity you're using is helping to transmit the ideas you're typing right now?
And if PG&E disagrees with its electricity being used to help communicate these ideas?
That’s it folks. We gotta nationalize everything because it all enables speech, if indirectly.
The First Amendment requires it: full Communism now.
Seems like the wrong level at which to deal with whether the content of particular speech violates the rules of a particular website.
The more you comment, the more plain it becomes that you don't understand when a company's First Amendment rights are implicated, and that you are not interested in rational arguments.
So, you admit that PG&E is helping to transmit your speech. Just like Twitter does.
But it's inconvenient to admit.
"So, you admit that PG&E is helping to transmit your speech. Just like Twitter does."
No. You are an idiot for thinking the two are the same, and you are even more of an idiot for having to be told multiple times that you are wrong.
The two companies are nothing alike. Their status is nothing alike. Their involvement in publishing the speech of others is nothing alike.
How many times must you be told 'no?'
Since section 230 explicitly says "(1)Treatment of publisher or speaker. No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider."
They seem pretty alike....
Congress, by statue, said "They ain't publishing".
No, that's not what Congress said, and if it were it would be ineffectual. Congress said, "States, you may not impose liability on them as if they were publishers." That's not remotely the same thing as saying that they aren't publishers.
How on earth do you think it would be constitutional to do what you claim, any more than it Congress, by statute, could say, "WSJ, you aren't a newspaper," and thereby strip the WSJ of the rights that newspapers have?
When something exists in a potentially grey area, like internet content providers which are acting as a conduit for individuals to self-publish, then Congress may step in to clarify their actual role. This is different from something that has a historic, non-grey area (like your newspaper example).
In this case, Congress has explicitly done so, saying "No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider."
That's pretty explicit. The ICS shall not be treated as the publisher or speaker. That's pretty clear direction to the courts.
When the ICS backs that up with their terms of service saying they are not responsible for the content. When their CEOs before the court say "That they simply “serv[e] as conduits for other parties’ speech"..
It's pretty clear. They don't call themselves publishers. The law explictly says they are not to be treated as publishers. So...they aren't publishers for the purposes of first amendment rights in regards to other people's speech.
If they had previously held themselves out as Publishers and responsible for the conduct of other people's speech on their platforms...that may be different. But that's not the case.
Once again: that's not how it works outside of the Armchair Law Circuit. Congress cannot by statute diminish the constitutional rights of… well, anyone. This should be obvious to even the dullest person. Therefore, your misinterpretation of the CDA is, well, a misinterpretation. That clause acts as a limitation on the power of the courts, not as a definition of the constitutional rights of ICSs.
That's just disingenuous nonsense by Oldham. They do not say that they "simply" do any such thing. And none of that is legally relevant.
But I reiterate: your analysis is wrong anyway. Barnes & Noble are conduits for others' speech. They are not responsible for what other people put in books. But they have the 100% constitutional right to decide what books to carry or not carry, with the only exception being books that are themselves unprotected speech (i.e., obscenity).
PG&E?! The public utility granted a monopoly in my neighborhood to provide energy? If they wanted to withhold energy from me based on the content of my speech using that energy, they can give up their monopoly in exchange and pay a fee to cross my property.
So complete repeal of Section 230? Just so we know where you stand.
Gah, I hate the comment section here. My "complete repeal" comment was supposed to be a reply to Jason, but of course it doesn't say that so you have to look at the little dashed vertical lines, and of course there's no way to edit.
Wildly incorrect.
If someone promotes the SF Giants or the newest video game or a piece of yarn work...people do not consider "Facebook" or "Twitter" to be speaking about the item in consideration. Instead, the person who posts the item is speaking about the item in consideration. Facebook or Twitter are simply acting as a method of transmission...much like the paper manufacturer. Or the telephone company, cable company, electric company, or any of another host of companies that allow for information transfer.
You may be right about that, if by, "people," you mean Joe Keyboard typing away at his computer at home. But you are right only because Joe Keyboard is mistaken.
Publishing is, among other things, a force multiplier for expressive activity, and for simply useful communication. It works by:
1. Pre-assembling an audience;
2. Choosing expressive or useful offerings to put before the audience members, who may choose at pleasure to make use of them or not;
3. Curating the audience, by selectively tailoring offerings to interest some audience members of special interest to would-be advertisers;
4. Providing and operating a means to transmit the various offerings to all the members of the selected audience;
5. Monetizing those activities by selling advertising to businesses and others with an interest to attract the attention of audience members of the sort pre-selected;
6. Sometimes using some of the monetary proceeds to pay contributors, and thus encourage them to further express themselves;
7. Sometimes making a profit.
Joe Keyboard does not think about any of those activities because he never needs to practice any of them. Absent those activities, Joe Keyboards expressive ambitions would be frustrated, but they are activities practiced outside his sight and attention. They are instead the characteristic activities of a publisher.
Joe Keyboard is not a publisher. He is a content creator, or an author, or a passive consumer of the published items. The act of publishing is thus typically collaborative expression, with Joe Keyboard's contribution almost always the lesser part of the collaborative effort. At all times, both content creators and publishers are speaking. However, the publisher's contributions are the more consequential and more effectual part of the mix. Content creators are readily replaced. By contrast, the loss of a publishing organization blocks an erstwhile expressive outlet used by many.
Also, make it a point to notice, Joe Keyboard is not even the, "user," of the social media site which empowers his expressive ambitions—or someone else's, when content is being delivered to Joe Keyboard as a consumer. The actual users of social media sites are the participating advertisers, who pay the bills for all that publishing activity. Joe Keyboard's attention is merely the raw material the publisher mobilizes to sell to its user/advertisers.
During the conduct of all of that activity, the publisher, which is what the operator of the social media platform actually is, is doing far more to speak than Joe Keyboard himself. To make the collaborative activity work as a practical matter—which is to say, to assure the publishing activity can generate enough money to enable its repetition and continuation—it is indispensable that the publisher remain at liberty to decide at pleasure what expressive content will best further the activity, to choose particular content and use it, and to reject at pleasure whatever displeases the publisher.
That indispensable importance is not only a matter of practicality. Expressive freedom is also at stake. Without an independent means to mobilize money to defray the cost of operations, publishers would be compelled to turn for monetary support instead to interested parties to whom they would then be beholding. Not infrequently, the interested parties would be governments.
Thus, that latter bit, the power to reject would-be content at pleasure, is important both to protect the flow of income necessary to keep the activity going, and also to keep it independent and accountable only to its own expressive purposes. To exercise wisely a publisher's power of rejection is complicated.
Contributors, alas, frequently wish to express themselves in ways which would frustrate and repel advertisers. The publisher must remain free to decide how much of that frustration the enterprise can constructively withstand. Sometimes it may be well worth it to frustrate an advertiser, to better accomplish with an especially choice contribution the recruitment of consumer attention, which will then serve either that advertiser, or other advertisers. The judgment to weigh those factors against each other must be left without constraint in the hands of the publisher, whose self-interest will often prove the most effective guide available to reach a sound decision amidst uncertainty.
But there remains also the matter of a reward for a publisher's own expressive ambitions. Without that reward, many publishers would choose to do something else, with the resulting loss of their own expressive opportunities, and Joe Keyboard's as well. That reality, amounting to public policy insight, is also part of the explanation why the First Amendment's guarantee of press freedom has proved both precious and useful.
"The act of publishing is thus typically collaborative expression, with Joe Keyboard's contribution almost always the lesser part of the collaborative effort. At all times, both content creators and publishers are speaking. However, the publisher's contributions are the more consequential and more effectual part of the mixv"
And in the context of Twitter and Facebook and other social media comapanies...you're wrong.
What "collaboration" does Twitter do with a statement made by Joe Keyboard when Joe posts it on Twitter? Does Twitter offer editorial support? Tweak the wording? Anything besides a "platform" for Joe to post on?
No. There is no difference between Twitter offering a virtual platform and a literal wooden platform company offering someone a physical wooden stage to speak from.
A publisher (in the context you're using) will read the proposed statements before publishing them. They will offer editorial advice, formatting changes, and so on). Twitter doesn't read the posts made before they are made. Twitter doesn't offer editorial advice. Twitter doesn't offer formatting changes.
They're a simple platform.
Armchair Lawyer — No reading ability at all? Or just so little experience that all the relevant concepts are foreign to you?
Go back and read that enumerated list of activities again. Ask yourself when you ever had to do any of them. The only reason you did not have to do them to enjoy your online experience—and at least imagine you were communicating with people—is that those activities were being done for you, at great effort and considerable expense, by Facebook, Twitter, or some other publishers.
Do you recall how frustrating it is to get taunts that if you do not like Facebook (or whatever platform), start your own? The requirement to do those activities, and succeed at them, is why it is frustrating. You haven't done it, and you do not want to do it. You are not a publisher. You are not even a platform user. You are Joe Keyboard.
Question: is Google censoring when its algorithms place certain results higher than others? Is Facebook censoring when it places certain things in a person’s newsfeed but not others? I of course don’t think so but I never see people discuss this. Seems like the next frontier if the cons are able to force big tech to enable “all” speech.
Darwinnie — The activities you mention are not censorship. They are audience curation—which is a typical publishing activity, but newly technologized by the practices you mention.
I agree. Just like I don’t think allowing platforms to moderate content is censorship. But if logic like I see from commenters here and from Texas prevail, I suspect that will be coming. By “that” I mean algorithms and such.
Moderation of content to keep it within the TOS--which may include subject-matter limitations--is how publishers remain in business. The nature of the Conspiracy changed dramatically when it relocated from WaPo to Reason. The quality of the threads dropped considerably, for example. There is a known trend for users to abandon toxic services (unless toxic is their goal re: 8chan) which means keeping services active and engaging means moderation. Even Truth Social moderates. The service is selling the users (Joe Keyboard in SL's comments) to advertisers. If the users leave, the revenue leaves with them.
In regards to your list...It's wrong.
Publishing classically does not "preassemble an audience".
To give an example of a classic publisher, Penguin/Random House. What audience have they "preassembled"?
Readers of Penguin/Random House books, obviously.
Anyone as smart as Lathrop would have seen that immediately.
/s
indeed...
Toranth — Well, I saw it, and commented about it here, before Armchair brought it up. So is that sooner than, "immediately?"
Armchair Lawyer — I had already addressed your book publishing point at length, when someone else made a similar point. I repeat the relevant part of my reply here, to show why your insistence is misplaced. This is me quoting my previous comment:
The publishing model I enumerated is valid, and reasonably encompassing. But it does not pretend to include every publishing business model. It does include the most-common and typically most-successful manifestations of publishing in the U.S. economy: social media, newspapers, magazines, many newsletters, most commercial broadcasters.
The no-advertising journals you mention rely either on donations, or on paid subscriptions plus individual copy sales, but otherwise practice most of the activities on the list. Book publishing is another kind of publishing which is not a precise match to the model I mentioned, and that class diverges even more from the listed practices.
My general point is that businesses which practice the activities on the list are thereby publishers, even if some publishers do not practice all of the activities. It would be difficult (maybe impossible) to find any business which did practice all the activities on the list as a principal business model, but which was not a publisher. If you practice the activities on that list, we know as a practical matter that you are a publisher. Facebook and Twitter, for instance, practice them all.
Thus, social media companies fall neatly into the large subset of publishers the list does describe. It is probably the subset which accounts for the most publishing revenue among all of them, and probably more than all the rest put together. The biggest social media platforms are indeed publishers, and are in fact by revenue the biggest publishers the world has ever seen.
Sigh.
Your list describes a wide variety of businesses. Including a hotel chain with its rewards program. Your justification of "publisher" (which is incorrect) would allow for hotel chains to discriminate against African Americans.
–?–
Think about a hotel and its rewards program...
It fits the list of what you consider to be a "publisher"
It "assembles an audience" of rewards members
It "chooses to make offers" to that audience
And so on...
Armchair, in my descriptions of publishing activities, I routinely make a point of referring to, "principal business models." Many businesses which by their principal business models are not recognizable as publishers, nevertheless practice a subset of activities—notably subordinate to their principal business—recognizable as publishing. That subordinate publishing typically gets the same protections as any other publishing. But it does not make the principal business a publisher. Publishers practice publishing activities as their principal business model. Hotels do not do that, not even hotels with rewards programs.
Uh huh...
And when Congress, by law, says "(1)Treatment of publisher or speaker. No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider."
What then?
"No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider."
Armchair, you keep going back to that, apparently without realizing that it is trivially ambiguous. In the context of Section 230 taken as a whole it has an implicit, "For the purpose of liability for libel," in front of it. That does not mean anything more than that. It does not mean a publisher has become some other kind of business, or that a publisher has been declared an outlaw without access to 1A press freedom protections.
As a subscriber to two journals (one online-only, one paper-only) that do NOT have any kind of advertising or (external) tracking, I'm going to have to disagree with the importance you place in advertising. In part because the advertisers are *too* "interested parties to whom [the publication] would then be beholding".
peak.singularity — Indeed. The publishing model I enumerated is valid, and reasonably encompassing. But it does not pretend to include every publishing business model. It does include the most-common and typically most-successful manifestations of publishing in the U.S. economy: social media, newspapers, magazines, many newsletters, most commercial broadcasters.
The no-advertising journals you mention rely either on donations, or on paid subscriptions plus individual copy sales, but otherwise practice most of the activities on the list. Book publishing is another kind of publishing which is not a precise match to the model I mentioned, and that class diverges even more from the listed practices.
My general point is that businesses which practice the activities on the list are thereby publishers, even if some publishers do not practice all of the activities. It would be difficult (maybe impossible) to find any business which did practice all the activities on the list as a principal business model, but which was not a publisher. If you practice the activities on that list, we know as a practical matter that you are a publisher. Facebook and Twitter, for instance, practice them all.
Thus, social media companies fall neatly into the large subset of publishers the list does describe. It is probably the subset which accounts for the most publishing revenue among all of them, and probably more than all the rest put together. The biggest social media platforms are indeed publishers, and are in fact by revenue the biggest publishers the world has ever seen.
Your point about independence and the influence of advertisers is also well made. There is a lot to discuss there, and maybe it would be worth a separate comment. A short summary of what I would write on the topic is that the agendas of advertisers are usually about getting commercial advantages, and less about controlling content—but of course some advertisers will try to do that.
From the publisher's standpoint, a saving factor is that advertisers will not typically present a unified front with regard to particular controversies, in the way a larger private interest might, or a government might. When I wrote, "To exercise wisely a publisher's power of rejection is complicated," it was partly with your insight about advertisers in mind.
Thank you for your comment.
Thank *you* for these comments, I was perhaps a bit too pedantic in mine ?
More about hosters/displayers/publishers on the Web :
https://www-laquadrature-net.translate.goog/2018/10/16/un-tiers-mediaire/?_x_tr_sl=fr&_x_tr_tl=en&_x_tr_hl=fr&_x_tr_pto=wapp
'about open-ness to new ideas, concepts, and thought processes'
This is just the abstract, intellectual, fine-sounding argument for forcing people to listen to things they don't want to listen to.
If you don't want to listen, you can....choose not to. Turn the page, switch the website, turn off the computer, block the speaker.
But when "other" people choose what you even get to listen to in the first place, and censor ideas they disagree with...then the choice to listen...or not...has been taken from you.
Yeah but by not listening I'm censoring them, specially of they're on the right and have cool new ideas like how the Jews are to blame for stuff.
People can also choose... not to have people express those views on their site.
You have the right as an individual to do what you want. You can discriminate all you want
As a business or public corporation, well...there's a whole lot of case law on discriminating, especially against African Americans and speech from their viewpoints.
That's okay, they can ban Holocaust denial/celebration from anyone regardless of race, gender or sexuality.
"But when "other" people choose what you even get to listen to in the first place, and censor ideas they disagree with...then the choice to listen...or not...has been taken from you."
And yet here you are, presumably trying to listen to ideas and presumably trying to comprehend them, without twitter's involvement whatsoever.
As it turns out, Twitter does not decide '..what you even get to listen to in the first place' and has not taken away your choice to listen or not.
They do get to decide whether to publish someone else's thoughts on their own property, at their own expense.
When twitter blocks people and removes viewpoints...it is deciding to censor viewpoints from others that I may want to read.
"When twitter blocks people and removes viewpoints...it is deciding to censor viewpoints from others that I may want to read."
And the village idiot moves his goalposts yet again...
Just because you don't understand what the goalposts are, it doesn't mean they've moved.
Citizens United says because corporations are made up of people, said people's speech rights are not diminished should they choose to use the corporate form.
You seem to have an issue with that analysis.
Section 230 explicitly says "(1)Treatment of publisher or speaker
No provider or user of an interactive computer service shall be treated as the publisher or speaker of any information provided by another information content provider."
Shall...not...be....treated.
You don't have free speech rights for speech that...isn't yours.
Yes. You. Do.
Yeah, how will you know you don't want to read the death threats and rape threats and Holocaust denial if you don't read them first?
when "Facebook" or "Twitter" posts something, no one actually considers Facebook or Twitter to be speaking about what is going on. If someone promotes the SF Giants or the newest video game or a piece of yarn work...people do not consider "Facebook" or "Twitter" to be speaking about the item in consideration. Instead, the person who posts the item is speaking about the item in consideration.
And if "Facebook" or "Twitter" are Dodger fans, and don't let you post about the Giants, you can certainly start your own blog, at minimal expense, and post about the Giants to your heart's content.
Facebook and Twitter act as a platform. When they do so, it's akin to a company acting as a paper supplier....selling paper to newspapers and magazines. It's a MEDIUM that allows for transmission of ideas of other people.
To go back to the original analogy, there are only so many paper manufacturers. When Facebook or Twitter selectively ban certain viewpoints, it impedes the communication of those ideas. It's like a company that bans the sale of paper to newspapers they disagree with.
You "could" just make your own paper to get your pamphlet out. The exceptional amount of time and effort required there is often prohibitive. It's like saying black people "could" just open their own hotels to stay at...making people have them be open is suppressing people's speech.
To go back to the original analogy, there are only so many paper manufacturers.
Which is a problem with the analogy. There are any number of ways to make yourself heard on the Internet without using Facebook or Twitter.
When Facebook or Twitter selectively ban certain viewpoints, it impedes the communication of those ideas. It's like a company that bans the sale of paper to newspapers they disagree with.
As noted, it's not like that at all.
You "could" just make your own paper to get your pamphlet out. The exceptional amount of time and effort required there is often prohibitive.
But setting up a blog is not expensive. Posting comments on other blogs is free. So is sending out your opinions to your followers via email.
"Which is a problem with the analogy. There are any number of ways to make yourself heard on the Internet without using Facebook or Twitter."
It's not a problem with the analogy. To use your argument within the analogy, you would argue "It's not a problem for the paper manufacturer to ban selling to people they disagree with. Those people can still speak normally. They don't need to print using paper. Or they could use chalk boards or other ways. Paper manufacturers should be free to discriminate against people".
Again, it's the mass communication. Saying that there are "other methods" doesn't mean the original isn't still censorship.
Likewise if a hotel was discriminating against African Americans, you would argue "They can just sleep in their car, or they can sleep in a tent or any number of other items. They don't need to sleep at that hotel. And forcing the hotel to allow them to violates the hotel's rights".
No, you're switching media in your analogy. bernard is not - twitter is not a unique medium.
You keep changing the scale you're arguing and moving your goalposts. Surely by now even you need to realize that if your argument requires such continual readjustment it's not great.
When Facebook or Twitter selectively ban certain viewpoints, it impedes the communication of those ideas.
Well, it may "impede" it, in the sense that CNN refusing to have me on the air, or the NYT refusing to give me a column, impedes the communication of my ideas.
But wait. As I understand it, the only people my Facebook posts or tweets reach are those who have expressed an interest in seeing them. Right? And the only people the VC posts reach are those, like the two of us, who look for them.
What is the big difference here? If Twitter told Somin he couldn't tweet in favor of open borders that wouldn't suppress his ability to make his arguments.
Re: CNN.
True. But CNN and the NYT here act as true publishers, with editorial actions and controls, and with actual limited bandwidth. They are not open to the public in the same way a "forum" is.
Re-But wait.
Importantly here, if I look for posts, but don't find them because they've been censored, then information has been censored.
Re: Somin. It would impede his ability. And if VC decided to ban Somin, it would impede his ability significantly, since people come to expect his viewpoint here.
This is actually a pretty good argument, and as a general rule we should be suspicious of monopolists' or even oligopolists' power, especially when they're being applied to limit what others can do.
Having said that, I think there's a few problems with your analysis:
1) Your analogies depend on the idea that the platforms are monopolies. This is fundamentally misguided. First, even though Twitter or Facebook are clearly the largest "social media" companies there's plenty of other ways to put messages on the Internet and send them to other people. They're only monopolies if you define a market in incredibly narrow ways (e.g., Twitter has the monopoly on sending very short text messages to large groups of people who decide to follow a particular speaker and want to be identified in some way other than their phone number), and not only do they compete with each other, but there's new entrants and new platforms displacing the incumbents every few years. If the government just did a decent job of preventing further consolidation, we'd already be talking about Instagram as one of the big social media companies in addition to TikTok which already has several times more users than Twitter but somehow conveniently gets left out of all of these discussions.
2) We probably agree that if Twitter was actually the newspaper as opposed to a paper manufacturer, that they wouldn't have to carry every letter to the editor that some crank in town sent in. Actual publishers surely have the right to pick and choose what they say; that's the essence of the first amendment. But are they more like the newspaper or more like the paper company? The trick is that they're somewhere in between, since unlike a newspaper they are mostly not in the business of generating their own content, but unlike the paper company they're not just supplying raw materials. I think they're much closer to being the newspaper (particularly in their role of choosing letters to the editor), but agree that this isn't clear cut.
3) The reason why they do content moderation in the first place is because their business models depend on advertising and there's a lot of content that advertisers have no interest in associating with their brands. Viewed through this lens, the selection of content really is importantly expressive to the companies and seems to put them much closer to legitimate free speech rights than acting as pure intermediaries for other people's speech.
1) "there's plenty of other ways to put messages on the Internet and send them to other people"
This is a misguided and erronious argument. To use the paper manufacturer monopoly example. The paper manufacturer says "there's plenty of other ways for people to get their message out without using our paper. They could make their own paper, or use a chalkboard, or speak from a soapbox." The mass produced paper however offers vast efficiencies and gains which are unavailable if the message just was individually written out with chalk.
What makes Twitter and Facebook a unique market is their control over a vast social media marketplace. Once which is quite expensive to develop and run. That someone could "just start their own" is a misguided argument. Because then ANY monopoly wouldn't be a monopoly...the monopolist would say "The person can just start their own business doing what we do...there's no monopoly". But that's not how it works.
2) "I think they're more like the newspaper"
There are two critical elements here in judging what Twitter is like.
A) Do they generate and edit their own content, or do they merely act as a conduit for messages being transferred? In general, the answer is the latter.
B) Do they have legal liability for anything that is "published" in their name? No, they don't.
Because of this, they are far more like a phone company or a paper manufacturer than like an actual publisher. They generally don't edit or create content. And they don't have legal liability for anything that is produced using their transmission method.
3) Content moderation.
-Again, given their lack of legal liability combined with their general lack of editing... Is it any different from a paper manufacturer who chooses not to identify or sell to an African American organization, for fear of losing business with other companies? Not really. Government regulation here is appropriate.
Armchair Lawyer — All your arguments, every one of them, point to Repeal of Section 230 as your best policy choice. But obviously you resist and oppose that. Apparently you do not want the problematic parts of the internet publishing system reformed. You want them kept in place, but with a government mandate to force existing internet big shots to let you get in on the abuse.
You may think, "What the hell, whatever the regime, if I get equal treatment with my most-favored rivals, I can live with it."
What you do not realize is that your demands are paradoxical and utopian. Bad as the situation already is, it will not be possible as a practical matter to keep online news distribution financially viable if your favored policy preferences get enacted.
The publishers who now rule how the system actually works will decide one-and-all not to play by your rules. They will quit the field—not because they are idealists, but because enacting your demands would make their business models fail. What you do not anticipate, but should, is that under the publishing regime you demand, you will hate even more the business models which would replace the ones now in use.
Others, opportunists and government lackey's mostly, would flood in to replace the present lords of the internet. The newcomers would be seasoned specialists in different business models, based on government subsidies—mean, tawdry, unreliable, and politically biased as those would be. Permissible content would be tailored to reinforce those subsidies. You cannot expect government mandated content to deliver any other result.
Or maybe there is one other possible result, even worse than that one. Extremely wealthy private interests, with money from sources other than publishing, and thus not constrained by any publishing business considerations, or any other considerations either, could take over as actual oligopolists—to recreate an even less accountable version of what you imagine is already the worst of all possible worlds.
Even if you could imagine yourself with special access to that world, with special privileges for you, you could hardly expect it to withstand the public revolt which would follow. Already, under the present regime, the public is greatly disturbed by the decline of a viable marketplace of ideas in the public life of the nation. If you gather nothing else from these internet threads, you should at least see that clearly.
The oligarchic alternative—thriving as it would as a real monopoly, and with actual monopoly's freedom from all constraints except force—would extinguish utterly every surviving remnant of a meaningful marketplace of ideas which any citizen could enter at pleasure.
When to deliver what you want is a practical impossibility, it is time to rethink what you want.
Section 230 explicitly states that the platforms are not publishers or speakers, in regards to the comments made on their platforms.
You don't need to "repeal" anything. It's clearly stated by law.
No. Learn to read. It explicitly states no such thing.
Armchair, you repeat that same mistaken conclusion again and again, while ignoring everything else anyone tells you. The point of my comment above is that even if what you say is true, and even if government can compel an internet publisher to do whatever it is you want, the result you are after will remain out of reach. There is no conceivable publishing business model which can sustain the result you want. You can't have it. You are a utopian advocate. Your demand is paradoxical, because to grant the demand would destroy the means to deliver it.
I suppose we could try to engage on those points. But you sensibly avoid them because you know nothing about what it takes to make publishing work. That, at least, is good judgment by you.
@David Nieporent: From Frank v Tiger Inn, "Central to the resolution of the jurisdictional issue is whether the Clubs are "places of accommodation" within the meaning of LAD, or are exempt from LAD because they are "distinctly private." The Division found that the Clubs have an integral relationship of mutual benefit with *79 Princeton which deprives them of private status and makes them subject to the Division's jurisdiction."
That's NJ, but the reasoning is that an "integral" relationship of mutual benefit deprives organizations of private status.
Does FB have an integral relationship with the feds?
* FB passes metadata along to the federal government - which is as effective as passing along data per se.
* The federal government flirts with using FB to suppress misinformation (as defined by themselves). https://www.reuters.com/world/us/why-biden-has-eased-up-facebook-over-covid-misinformation-2022-02-03/
* FB benefits mightily from Section 230. Without it, FB would be held liable for the posts that appear on its pages.
(And yet it also argues that moderation of those posts does not make it a content provider...separate point)
So at some point - perhaps not now, but perhaps with just a little more entanglement - FB becomes subject to public accommodation laws. It seems to me.
"FB passes metadata along to the federal government - which is as effective as passing along data per se"
Are you saying they do this constantly, when requested, when compelled, or something else?
I don't think they send a steam of metadata to the federal government, but I could be mistaken.
" It's amazing to see a supposed "libertarian" start arguing against freedom of speech "
He is arguing for freedom of speech, you bigoted clinger. You reflexively side with the bigots trying to use others' property against their will, and therefore miss that point.
It’s one of the worst posts on this site this year so far.
Why don’t Americans blindly trust experts? Somin is a law professor and he posted this. Expertise isn’t what it used to be.
Ben_ — Ordinary American's trust with regard to experts will, of course, always be benighted. Given that, do suppose it would serve the interests of ordinary Americans better to blindly trust experts, or to blindly distrust them?
This is bending a law to fit a conclusion.
You could just as soon say that the administration and the sanctuary cities leadership, by encouraging so many migrants, is violating the takings clause as it relates to people who live on the border.
And can the governor of Arizona even commit a taking in NY or DC, where he has no authority?
This is a silly take.
I don’t understand why someone as strongly pro immigration as Somin doesn’t see the damned point, which is that the border states and communities are being severely impacted by the magnitude of this surge. They’ve been complaining about it forever with no action. Now the sanctuary folks are getting to participate and they don’t like it.
Yeah it’s kinda shitty but how else are the border states gonna get any relief? Revenge politics from the left have left them with no choice. Biden loves spending tax money more than he loves his kids. Spend some down here Joe.
I'm puzzled by which post you're responding to. Prof. Somin is talking about the seizures of control over social media companies by government apparatchiks, not about immigration.
Uncontrolled immigration is even more a taking than this law is, yet Somin loves uncontrolled immigration.
Immigration is not, in fact, a taking at all, so that's sort of a puzzling response.
The kind of legislation that Somin discusses is not a taking, either, which is why it's a good analogy.
I mean, I agree. But Prof. Somin is talking about a regulation on a business, which is at least in the neighborhood. You're talking about immigration, which is not anything like that, it just makes you mad.
The kind of legislation that Prof. Somin is discussing commandeers private property for the benefit of others. Now, whether that's necessarily a taking as the Supreme Court interprets the term is a reasonable question.
But it has nothing in common with immigration, which does not commandeer private property for the benefit of others.
While I a kinda free speech fanboy I have to admit I have blocked four libturds who's posts are so numerous and absurd to alter the signal to noise ratio.
So my question is why Reason does not have a block feature for bozos like Illya who also harms the signal to noise ratio.
Free speech fanboy? You lack self-awareness. You are a faux libertarian wingnut who wishes to compel others to publish their lies and bigoted ugliness.
Actually, they do have a block function. It is called a scroll wheel.
It works like the one here in the comments. You see a name you prefer not to read at the time, and scroll down to the next article or comment.
To cut to the chase: Professor Somin, if Twitter decides that only straight, white, cisgendered men are allowed to post on its platform, would a contrary statute (maybe 42 USC §1981) be an unconstitutional taking if given effect?
As long as they bake cakes while posting, I would suppose so.
Professor Somin might be consistent on this but the left would lose their sh$t.
I was responding to the one about the immigrants, obvious. That one seems to come and go.
I had bivalent Covid vaccination yesterday and the fever side effect just hit so I’m probably disoriented. But I tried to respond to the migrant one, but I just went to look and it was gone again.
I’m gonna close it down until this is over. Sorry for the confusion.
Feel better soon. Pretty much everyone who got their 4th shot had a reaction. Even those of us who had no reaction to the first 3. Usually 12-24 hours of feeling somewhere in the blech-to-ecch spectrum. Should feel absolutely fine after that window.
Feel better soon, bevis.
My wife and I just got it also, and she had the same fever side effect. I hope you get over it quickly.
If telling YouTube they can’t discriminate is a taking, then telling UPS they have to deliver packages to black people is a taking.
Somin should think harder. Cedar Point is not a free expression case.
And so what if it were a taking? YouTube can bill Texas for the extra cost of hosting a video when YouTube is sued and the court rules they have to put a video back up. (That’s the only remedy under the Texas law.). Texas can pay 5 cents a year to YouTube for the fair market value of what was "taken". Raise taxes on huge data centers in Texas to cover it.
Speaking of the internet, wasn't there a case about a Christian web designer getting tooken?
It isn’t really analogous.
YouTube hosts videos. The 10 millionth video isn’t any a significant extra effort from the 9,999,999th. Excluding it is more effort than ignoring it.
Web designers, if they decide to say yes to a contract, engage in many hours of personal expert design work for a client. The results are unique, creative works. If a web designer doesn’t want to do a specific job, he should be free to decline it, just like he should be free to decline to spend a week picking cotton for the local plantation owner.
Somin clings to a bygone, discredited Lochner-esque view in which, above all else, businesses have sacred "rights" to be free from government regulation. In this world, the employees and customers of these businesses have little or no rights, and those are certainly inferior to the "rights" of the business.
I do not see how any anti-discrimination law is valid under his jurisprudential views. Regardless, his constitutional view of the world died in 1937, and it's never coming back.
Ahh yes, so when governments force restaurants to serve black patrons, when they force bakeries to make a cake for two men in an anal sex based relationship, when they force landlords to keep squatters for years on end, that's not a taking, but god forbid governments tell a private business they can't prohibit guns inside or that an online tech monopoly has to allow dissenting views.
If there is anything the conservatives at this white, male blog can't stand, it is some genuinely libertarian context mixed in with the faux libertarian right-wingery.
The implications of Professor Somin’s position shod be pointed out.
First, the rationale is hardly limited to social media. All nonddiscrimination laws result in unwanted people occupying business’ property. Under Professor Somin’s view, if the federal government wants black people to be able to stay at the Heart of Atlanta hotel, it had better pay comensation for taking the owners’ property.
Second, I think Professor Somin’s argument fails on its own premises. Government is not saying that black people get to stay at the Heart of Atlanta Motel for free. They have to pay. And one night’s hotel rate is exactly the just compensation due for the use of a hotel room for one night. Similarly, unwanted internet users have to pay the same rates or read the same paying ads as others, and that’s all the compensation the proprietors are due.
And suppose that the Atlanta Hotel proprietors are more compensation for having to put up with black skin soiling thwid sheets than the ordinary hotel rates. To hold that way would be nothing more than a massive financial incentive to discriminate. Why permit black people to stay at your hotel for free when you can bar them and then get extra compensation from the government for letting them stay? If the government pays discriminators but not non-discriminators, everybody with a profit motive would discriminate. What we’d end up with would be the same regime we have now, but in addition a massive wealth transfer from government to property owners, employers, and service providers of every kind, who would all claim to discrimanate in as many ways as clever lawyers can devise to get them additional compensation. Discrimnation laws would be too socially costly.
Assuming that ciscrimination laws constitute a taking in the first place, the just compensation for any taking resulting from anti-discrimination laws is simply the cost of the service. As long as any unwanted customers have to pay that cost, owners get justly compensated, and there simply isn’t any taking without just compensation. And if wanted customers get free service because the business makes money off of advertising or some similar business model, then the money made from advertising (etc.) to unwanted customers is also just compensation.
In the 11th Circuit, Heart of Atlanta can presumably get around all discrimination laws by streaming a video of all guests going in and out of their hotel. A video of guests is a first amendment protected creative work. Can government compel Heart of Atlanta to create videos of people Heart of Atlanta doesn’t prefer? That’s compelled speech.
If YouTube can use the first amendment to discriminate, anyone should be able to do the same by making the discrimination part of the creative performance.
if Heart of Atlanta chose only to stream videos of White guests, that particular action may very well fall outside the bounds of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
They can not claim that they need to be able to exclude Black guests in order to have a video of only White guests going in and out of the hotel.
Then Facebook can’t claim they need to suppress some voices to produce their content either. That’s the argument.
“nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.”
Somin skips over the big catch - Just Compensation. The government can take private property - they just have to pay just compensation. The problem here is that the damages, the just compensation, is de minimis. Sure, the party subject to the Takings may not be happy with the Takings, or the determined compensation, but that isn’t unique here. Rather, it is rather common. Your family has owned a property for 5 generations, and the government takes it for a freeway. It is unlikely that the government will pay anywhere near the sentimental value to your family. Take it they will, and they will pay a fair market value for that profit. So, these companies may try to justify damages as Just Compensation, but are unlikely to collect much of anything, because the law, if anything, may actually increase their revenue. Unlikely to reduce it.
Actually Bruce, they will just take the part they need, paying you FMV for that part, and ignoring the fact that by taking that part they have significantly reduced the value of what they left you, value for which they didn't pay you. I have a friend who still owns a little piece of property that is a triangle about 40 x 10, now located across a busy street from his house. Too small to do anything with but he still has to maintain it and pay property taxes. In general, however, I agree with your assessment.
Professor volokh’s claim that requiring people to sign a contract means one is not generally open to the public, hence government cannot interfere with your right to exclude without giving compensation, is absurd.
The Heart of Atlanta Motel required people renting a room to sign a contract. Telephone and utilities require you to sign a contract. Common carriers generally require you to sign a contract. Back in the days of physical tickets, the fine print on many tickets used to contain contract terms or statements that the purchaser has read and agreed to the terms.
There is just no basis for the claim that requiring customers to sign a contract means a business does not serve the general public and cannot be subjected to discrimination laws.
Indeed, in the law can and often does impose an implied contract in the absence of an express one. A shopping mall can condition entering on abiding by rules, which the person entering implicitly agrees to. The fact that a shopping mall imposes rules, contractual terms, does not exempt it from discrimination laws.
Aorry, Professor Somin’s claim.
This seems to be an example of a case where Professor Somin wants a result really really badly, ao basly it is affecting his equinamity. The post reads likes someone scrambling for arguments without sitting back and thinking whether they really hold water.
Hotel guests generally sign an agreement when they check into a hotel, covering things like length of stay, parking, conduct within and damage to the property, acceptance of responsibility for the bill, etc. Those contracts don't give the hotel the right to discriminate arbitrarily.
Which is just another way of saying that the government doesn't let them, so they've stopped trying.
More specifically, it shows that Somin's argument about the significance of a contract is wrong. How long has it been since he checked into a hotel?
We are in this situation because the Democrats threatened to crush their business models by wiping tens to hundreds of billions from the stock valuations of these companies, by deleting section 230, unless they censored harrassment according to government officials' desires.
Which was done. This was all loud and out in the open.
Immediately they demanded the same of harrassing tweets by political opposition right before an election.
Which was done. This was all loud and out in the open. You can even track the shifting rationalizations. Harrassment is protected? Fine, they shifted to "dangerous" speech, with little difference.
So good, the post topic is wrong. But we wouldn't be here but for the most grotesque violations of the First Amendment to begin with. You are looking to forbid government clipping your nails when gigantic mechanized First Amendment abatoirs continue churning night and day.
Pretty much.
And, you know what? By 2024 you'll be looking back at today with nostalgia, it's going to be so much worse. Not only will the censorship be more comprehensive by 2024, the Democrats' social credit score system will be starting to roll out, too, and people who try saying the wrong things online will have serious trouble with banking services.
By censorship, do you mean, 'woke,' 'CRT,' and LGTBQ-themed books being removed from schools, libraries and bookshops and anyone who objects getting harassed and fired? Use a ruling like this, with some selective and motivated enforcement, and you can force them off social media too!
Removing books from the public school library is not censorship. The government hasn't said you can't read them, it has said that they are not appropriate for the audience and therefore won't be readily available to small children browsing the library shelves. Parents are free to purchase all those books from any bookstore and/or request them from their public library. Not one single actually banned book by the government AFAIK.
Removing content from a privately administered forum is not censorship. The bigots and delusional liars are still free to publish their bigotry and delusional lies -- they must find a suitably and similarly deplorable host or publish it themselves.
Censorship? That's Prof. Eugene Volokh telling liberals they can't use certain words (for example, "sl_ck-j_awed") to describe conservatives, or the Volokh Conspiracy banning a liberal (Artie Ray) for poking fun at conservatives a bit too deftly for one particular blogging hypocrite's taste.
Carry on, clingers.
So far as your betters permit, and that's it.
See? It's ok because technically it isn't censorship! It's book removalship to protect the little mindsisship.
I don't know why you think people will be able to buy them, going by the behaviour of DeSantis and this ruling, they're ideologically committed to getting right into businesses and protect more little minds
So, you're in favor of pornography being provided at taxpayer expense, to 7 year olds. Good to know.
If the country hasn't completely collapsed by then. Our leaders have now learned its either hyperinflation or recession, and they've picked recession.
Most Americans have been bred to think that the government will take care of them. At some point, it can't. Then what?
Who knows? Maybe the poorly educated, roundly bigoted, reason-rejecting Republican states could learn to live without handouts from the modern, successful, educated, Democratic states?
Hate to be the bearer of bad news, but conservative America is self sufficient. Liberal America is not. Your "handouts" come in the form of taxes paid for with "earnings" that come from an asset mania. When this crap falls apart, do you think Facebook, Twitter, and other internet companies that make their money from advertising will survive? No. You'll want food, water and energy, which are produced by conservatives.
You'll also need PrEP to avoid catching HIV from your numerous "boyfriends."
Conservative America freeloads massively. It is concentrated in downscale trades, freeloading churches, agriculture, mining, and the like. When a conservative needs an operation, or wants to send a child to a decent school, or can't operate without technology, that conservative must rely on the educated, modern, progressive communities and our strongest teaching and research institutions, all of which are operated by, for, and in the liberal-libertarian mainstream.
The next big societal shift is likely to be another blow to clingers -- automation that will make millions of drivers, factory workers, agricultural workers, and other low-education livelihoods obsolete. The economic benefits will enable better Americans to continue to subsidize the conservative, religious, backwater, half-educated hayseeds.
"the Democrats' social credit score system will be starting to roll out, too, and people who try saying the wrong things online will have serious trouble with banking services."
Do you ever tire of being a conspiratorial twit?
I'd have to be one, to be tired of it.
You're unaware of Operation Choke Point, for instance? (Biden's started it up again, apparently.) Crowd funding companies shutting down fund raisers for conservative causes? Card processing companies canceling the accounts of social media platforms that refused to censor?
We're a lot further along in implementing social credit scores than most people realize.
The right wing conspiracy take on Operation Choke Point is incorrect, and not shared by many outside of right-wing media exclusives. It wasn't good policy, but beyond that you and I have been over the utter lack of evidence for your conspiratorial take many times.
As to your tossed of note that that Biden has restarted it. All I could find on the latter was a blog post in 'thetruthaboutguns.com' which tries to say Biden is taking steps to restart it. Nothing beyond that. But that's all a conspiracy theorist needs to go to 'this is certainly happening.'
It seems a little conspiratorial, but the danger is on the horizon and we all should be vigilant.
1. Recall NY intimating that any banks thay served gun companies were suffering reputational damage that may preclude getting government work (VC, any updates on this?)
2. Everything needed to rip you a new butthole passes through innumerable servers already, with all you do online parsed by AI to build little avatar models of you, from which advertising predictions are made.
Ever wonder why outrage ads of pols pop up on various web sites? That isn't guessing. That is computers targetting your IP address. Nobody even cares about names in this scenario, but the info is there.
They even know your name and phone number, but need you to confirm it from time to time.
So...a leak? A dishonest employee? May not even be illegal to the highest bidder, and suddenly people are pressing on social (read: job) ostracism.
3. The case in Washington IIRC where they used signatures to get some proposal on the ballot to publically shame people.
4. Same for gun registration, but this backfired as it provided maps of houses without guns.
5. Threatening online business to fall into line lest something happen and advertisers get scared already happens. Usually in the contex of porn, but First Amendment fights should be on distasteful grounds, lest it get to truly important stuff, right?
The impulse is definitely there, as are the tools, as are examples in dictstorships like China, who exported this to Venezuela.
So...keep an eye out for it.
It seems a little conspiratorial, but the danger is on the horizon and we all should be vigilant.
I mean, OK. But maybe don't start with the corkboard analysis right under though. Be vigilant regarding *what is actually going on or proposed* not what you presume is secretly going on or speculate is about to happen.
Making online content moderation illegal is the most blatantly dumb and politically-motivated outcome since Judge Cannon made her last ruling. I expect Twitter and Facebook will have more to worry about than, say, Parler, or Trump's Truth thing, even though they have helped spread conservative ideas and opinions to an unrecedented degree. That's gratitude for you, as the frog said to the scorpion. Can't be doing anything to hinder future Russian disinformation designed to help Republcan candidates, I guess, or kicking neo-Nazis off Twitter. Yeah, freedom of speech! Now we'll shut up those wokies!
It's amazing as to how much bullshit you can pack into one short comment.
The Republican Party is now essentially the party of trolling. edgelords and endless whataboutism, no wonder you feel threatened by online content moderation.
The Volokh Conspiracy: Official Legal Blog Of Half-Educated, Delusional, Bigoted, Authoritarian Republicans.
"Making online content moderation illegal"
Way to misrepresent the whole argument.
No, I think it cuts to the heart of the matter.
... cuts out the heart of the matter.
..eats it..
Parler and Truth social have repeatedly been shown to ban people for expressing Liberal views.
If 'point of view' moderation is banned then they have to modify their policies far more than Twitter.
Love these crucible posts.
Advocating for upping the protection of property from government regulation, you really see the Libertarians versus those who want the government to be as big as it wants - for their partisan ends.
Conservativism wrapping around to nationalizing corporations is not something I would have expected.
Do not love your comments that add nothing but vague ad hominem attacks to the thread.
I wish they did not constitute such a large fraction of your output.
Create a straw man, attack it, pretend you've won a great witty victory.
Sarcastro in a nutshell.
All y'all are saying private companies should be under the government boot to make them let you use them as you see fit.
That's absolutely not libertarian at all, no matter how you define censorship down.
Now, I'm not a libertarian, so if you want to treat corporations as different then individuals when it comes to speech...please proceed.
Or maybe beef up antitrust to go after these folks. That'll really show us libs!
several interlocking concepts must be acknowledged
- Antitrust issues especially with network effects that dominate the industry. There is no question that they are ABUSING their power. One can compare this to common carrier status.
One can compare their EDITORIAL choices to publishing and the resultant libel liability.
- The near unlimited capacity of a LARGE social media firm. A taking is important if it deprives the owner of his own use. If there is such a large capacity, they are not limited in their own use. Note the Texas law does not apply to ALL social media firms.
Thomas has been searching for an appropriate case.
Indeed, IMHO the failure of antitrust explains most of the current issues.
I might be mistaken, but the case of Marsh v. Alabama (1946) might be fitting here ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_v._Alabama
"which ruled that a state trespassing statute could not be used to prevent the distribution of religious materials on a town's sidewalk even though the sidewalk was part of a privately-owned company town."
I have a threshold Q for everyone on the antitrust/monopoly train (including the 5th Cir.): what resource or concept, exactly, is being "monopolized"?
Twitter has a large market share of the "social messaging app using a 280 character format" .. so what? It certainly didn't prevent Truth Social from starting up. It's not the only "social media" company. It doesn't monopolize ideas, or communications, or culture, or ... anything, really.
You seem to be misunderstanding what "monopoly" means in practice. "Has a large market share" *is* the definition of a monopoly (or to use the technical term : "dominant position", and abuses of such, including agreements between independent market operators that would result in similar issues).
And depending on the jurisdiction, even 50% of the market share might not be required to be classified of such.
Perhaps a simple solution is the better solution. Like workers can opt out the whole workers comp system and preserve their right to sue their employers for negligence, social media companies could opt out of section 230 immunity and expose themselves to all kinds of legal actions. But, if they decide to keep immunity, they would have to allow almost unfettered posts on their sites. Exceptions would be made for speech unprotected by the Constitution, such as actual threats, etc. And maybe a kidzone with additional protections.
Libertarians should be satisfied since it is the business’s choice and I would expect all the big players to agree to immunity.
This has been suggested during the (relatively) recent legislation in the EU : Copyright Directive, Article 13 - even though it more directly concerns copyright, similar questions about (automatic or not) moderation have been raised.
https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-47239600
(There are some suspicions that GAF(AM)s intense lobbying has resulted in a directive that will instead help them by making it too costly for potential smaller competitors to follow regulations.)
I liked the suggestion of a legal status in-between common carrier and publisher, where the website gets *some* protection against being legally liable to what users post, but it also gets restrictions on the kind of size of business it can be, and/or how it can do moderation.
P.S.: This won't help the GAF(AM)s that much though, because, very roughly, the 2001 Patriot Act, by allowing unchecked, police-state style snooping of the US Government into the data and computers of EU customers (including EU companies), as been revealed by the Snowden scandal, has basically made US companies illegal in EUrope - the EU legal-judiciary apparatus has been slow, and dragging its feet (since short-term it's quite painful), but the chickens are starting to come home to roost...
Sigh. This is literally gibberish. Setting aside that workers cannot in fact opt out of the whole workers comp system, you are saying "Social media companies can be protected by Section 230 immunity only if they agree not to do the things that Section 230 immunity protects them from."
You obviously don’t know as much as you think you do and have to resort to ad hominem attacks. An example statute allowing an employee to reject workers comp coverage is Ky.Rev.Stat. 342.650(6). https://apps.legislature.ky.gov/law/statutes/statute.aspx?id=51336
The opt out provision is necessary because injured employees are being deprived of their right of access to the courts.
And your restatement of my premise is what is gibberish. If a company accepts Section 230 immunity, it would simply have to use it fully and allow comments that some might find uncomfortable.
The vast majority of states disagree. But you are correct that Kentucky and a couple of others do allow employee opt out. Weird, since it kind of defeats the whole purpose of the workers comp system, but you are correct on that and my statement was too categorical. (This is why lawyers don't give advice about states where we aren't admitted.)
But this remains gibberish. Again: Section 230 specifically tells websites that they don't have to allow comments that they don't like. That's what "Section 230 immunity" is. What you are proposing is to repeal 230, by saying that it only applies if it isn't used.
Let me give an analogy that might make it clearer. Let's suppose a statute says that someone who voluntarily stops to assist an injured person cannot be sued for negligence. (Those statutes are often called "Good Samaritan laws"; states enacted them to encourage people to render assistance to accident victims.) What you are proposing is to amend that law to say, "You retain your protection from a lawsuit… as long as you don't assist anyone."
Of course, that's already the case; therefore, what you're suggesting is that the law be amended to only protect people who have no use for the protection of the law.
I wonder how much the feds owe for the "takings" imposed by Title II of the Civil Rights Act of 1964? Imagine the government saying you have to let just anybody sit at your lunch counter, even if they're not the sort of people you care to cater to!
"it seems to me that occupation of virtual "real estate" is analogous to occupation of land."
What? That's a massive leap. You're destroying the legal distinction between real property and personal property. Maybe you want to do that anyway, but you need to be honest about what you're doing.
grasping at straws, Ilya.
So when and how will this issue make it to the SC?
Well, there's an active circuit split with the 11th Cir., and I assume the Plaintiffs in the 5th Cir. will want to appeal. I doubt it will take too long.
The main thing I'm curious about is whether the S.Ct. will stay the 5th Cir.'s ruling while it considers the appeal. I'd bet a beer in favor of a stay.
Is there a difference between a media company like Twitter denying access because of viewpoint, and a non-media company doing the same? Walgreens? Power company? Verizon? The local ambulance? The grocery store? A physician? A lawyer?
It seems to clarify the issue for me if the discussion is broadened to include any private entity denying to deal with any customer for any viewpoint-related reason.
I recall in 2017, the CEO of Camping World put out a notice saying, "Trump supporters not welcome at Camping World." Of course he retracted that after learning that it was most of his customers, but did he have the right to do so? If he does have the right, is that a wise way for society to evolve?
We can't have a modern civil war because the divisions are not geography based. We are stuck with learning to get along with each other.
Serving customers may be required under public accommodation laws for good and services. It is not baseline required by the Constitution, which does not itself touch private action.
Even public accommodation laws are limited under expressive association (e.g. bespoke wedding cakes), and, increasingly, freedom of religion grounds. It also generally applies only to classes that are protected (age, race, marital status, gender etc.)
But here we have a law compelling not just association as a business, but also speech choices. And the classification is not a protected class but 'having a viewpoint.'
It's a helluva expansion of public accommodation, and as many on here are saying is akin to the quasi-nationalization of utilities like water and power, but without the assured and paying user base.
California just passed their own law restricting what social media companies can do. Their reasons are different, but at its core I don't really see a solid distinction. Is this also an illegal taking that should be struck down by the courts?
https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/california/california-childrens-online-privacy/3004546/
California will be the first state to require online companies to put kids' safety first by barring them from profiling children or using personal information in ways that could harm children physically or mentally, Gov. Gavin Newsom said Thursday.
This appears to me to be a content-based regulation, not a viewpoint-based regulation.
A corporation comes into being because a group of investors, having decided to incorporate, asks a State for a (corporate) charter. When the State issues that charter, the corporation springs into existence. The corporation is a creature of the State that issued the charter.
Because a corporation is a creature of the State, it has only the attributes acquired by heredity from its parent. That is, it can have only those powers that were endowed to the State by the State's creators, viz.: the people of the State. Conversely, any powers that were withheld from the State by the people cannot have been passed on to the corporation.
A wide variety of powers were withheld from the States and from the federal government that, via Congress, creates new states. Most of us are familiar with the Bill of Rights which mostly lists things the federal government (and, by extension, States) are forbidden to do; things like: interfere with the free expression of peoples' opinions, discriminate among customers based on their exercise of rights retained by real people, &c.
So, if a State is forbidden to discriminate among its customers (i.e.: citizens), how can a corporation, a creature of that State, have such a power? If a State is forbidden to block the free exercise of expression by its citizens, how can a corporation, a creature of that State, have such a power? The answer is that a corporation cannot and does not have any such power. Doing such acts is a violation of the corporate charter.
The paper manufacturer says "there's plenty of other ways for people to get their message out without using our paper. They could make their own paper, or use a chalkboard, or speak from a soapbox." The mass produced paper however offers vast efficiencies and gains which are unavailable if the message just was individually written out with chalk.
So what. Using other tools to reach one's followers on the Internet is not anywhere near as costly, ineffective, or impractical as your newspaper alternatives.
Does Twitter allow users to tweet a web address, or an email address? If not, just tell your followers where to find you. Anyone interested in what you have to say will do so.
The answer to your question is simple: your premise is wrong. Corporations are not chartered by the state. (Well, some corporations are. Those would be subject to the same restrictions as the state.) Private people create corporations. They register the charters of those corporations with the state.
Here's a thought. Social media platforms can just claim that their content moderation policies are driven by sincere religious conviction. Since conservative courts today seem to believe that religious beliefs trump public accomodation policy... can't force a bakery to serve LGBTQ+ customers, can't force a company to provide birth control or medications in its health care, etc., if they believe that runs counter to their faith... what would stop a social media company from claiming a religious objection to allowing content that they believe is hate speech or harmful?
My worry is that, by treating what would traditionally be a First Amendment issue as a taking, you're offering a backdoor justification for censorious regulations. The government isn't violating your freedom of speech by seizing your social media account, it's merely engaging in a lawful taking of private property for public use. It's not the government's fault you're not popular enough for your social media account to be worth more than a couple hundred bucks in advertising revenue, enjoy your just compensation. Taking the issue out of the First Amendment (the one amendment the courts seem to actually take seriously) and placing it in the Fifth Amendment (which they've proven they're happy to ignore in most cases) seems like a great way of significantly weakening the constitutional protections available, not strengthening them.
I think he's making an additional argument, not a substitute one.
Perhaps all this happened because of the lack of the right server? For instance, developments are closely interrelated, and one component can not exist without the other. Undoubtedly, one day I also needed development in this area and accidentally came across the cheapest vps server on the Internet which allowed me to get affordable Linux VPS hosting plans. I have achieved a good return and I think that everyone should work hard on their project.
I have been looking for a program to protect myself on the Internet and recently I found an interesting browser software, Web-Paranoid, which allows you to feel safe when you are online and also finds fake providers that you should not trust. And how are you trying to protect yourself on the Internet?
Social media sites are not real property
It is a massive mistake to create the same rights in things that are not tangible Proprty as things that are
This creates problems way beyond social media
And we already have gone way to far in afford Proprty protections to things that are not property
I didn’t say it was a taking by inaction. Or that it was a raking at all. I said that the notion that the governors were committing a taking was “silly”. And I said that saying that the sanctuary people were committing a taking was equally good logic, meaning that it’s silly.
If one of those takes is rational, then the other is rational. If one is stupid, the other is stupid.
Do you comprehend it now, or do I need to explain it again and talk reeeeeeel sloooooooow?
The key is "general web design tools".
Was there ever a single kulak (family) that had basically cornered an [insert a staple food] market ?
Just like the black woman or the gay man has a right to take his business elsewhere when a store refuses to serve her or him.
Nevertheless, legislatures have chosen to pass laws to prevent such discrimination, laws which courts have upheld for decades. Whether those laws are good ideas are policy questions, not legal ones.
I am only opining on the constitutionality of the laws, not their wisdom.
By your argument, minimum-wage laws and working-hours laws are also unconstitutional takings, right? Employees have the same rights as employers: To walk away and establish a different employment relationship.
An argument long rejected by the judiciary.
Well, it proves he decided -- for whatever reason -- to avoid mentioning them. It's like holding nuclear half-masses in your hand and saying to yourself "Self, better not smack these half-masses together, for doing so would give some people ideas."
He didn't mention three toed sloths, the color chartreuse, or the Battle of Hastings. Does that prove that "he decided — for whatever reason — to avoid mentioning" those things?
Thanks for that reminder that you have absolutely no on-topic contributions to make, only lame personal conversations of your own sins couched as accusations against others.
Opening gates to let illegal immigrants through is an action. So is transporting them. And issuing work permits and documentation. The Biden administration takes countless actions to enable, encourage and support illegal immigration.
It's a good thing that Democrats don't care about the (Take Care clause of the) Constitution or else they might impeach Biden and Harris over it.
Nut nitpicks nugatorily.
It's not so much your phrase as a worn-out and self-referencing dumbass leftist meme, perfectly fit for trite repetition by fascist Warren-loving assholes who baselessly accuse others of being "herrenvolk" and wanting to sleep with Elizabeth Warren. (Hint: She still won't sleep with you. And you should find a better subject of infatuation than someone whose only claims to fame are lying about her ancestry and what constitutes a medical bankruptcy.)
P.S. You might want to stop treating Nineteen Eighty-Four as an instruction manual. For most people, accusations are just that, war is not peace, freedom is not slavery, and ignorance is not strength.
No matter how much you and Jason Cavanaugh treat your ignorance as a strength.
Some of us can deal with antecedents and phrases like "exactly that kind of regulation" without needing a literal repetition of the wording used before.
But you do you.
Yes, literally opening locked gates to allow illegal immigrants in: https://www.foxnews.com/politics/border-patrol-opens-gate-locked-texas-national-guard-allow-illegal-immigrants-enter
In that case, there literally was a fenced-in yard.
In the Queen's world fenced (or walled) yards are the exclusive domain of Nancy Pelosi and company.
The linked story is bullshit.
Border Patrol agents on Wednesday opened a gate that had previously been locked by members of the Texas National Guard, in order to allow a number of illegal immigrants deeper into the United States.
Fox News witnessed members of the guard close and lock the gate, which is situated on private property and had previously been open, to deny entry to migrants who had crossed illegally and were expecting to be allowed into the U.S.
First of all, the gate is on private property. How does the TNG go in and close it?
Second, contrary to the implication, the immigrants were already in the US, or did you miss the word "deeper" in the first paragraph?
Third, they were being let through to go to processing centers. You don't like that policy? Guess what. I don't want a bunch of TX guardsmen deciding how to deal with these people.
Michael, Did you not know that libertarians have pretty much always opposed minimum wage and working hour laws as interference in the right of people to make contracts? Or were you speaking tongue in cheek?
Do you genuinely believe the American mainstream is in the market for tips from a disaffected, powerless, right-wing bigot like you, Michael P?
The culture war is not quite over but has been settled, Michael P, and right-wing assholes like you have lost.
Thank goodness.
QA is not what any sane person would call a libertarian.
They don't have goals. They know they have been stomped into irrelevance in the culture war and have lost at the modern American marketplace of ideas. They just look for the occasional chance to flick a middle finger toward their betters. That is all these obsolete clingers have left.
Well, that and their goofy red hats. And their Bibles (held upside down, of course). And their memories of illusory good old days.
Perhaps that can be enough to sustain them until replacement.
I am certainly "not your friend".
Your typo reminds that Trump actually did visit the border on more than one occasion unlike Biden who has yet to find time to do so.
The purpose of the border wall or Nancy's walled estate is the same. To delineate the boundary of the property and keep out uninvited "guests".
Shit + shit only equals more shit. Something you're very good at.
Interesting that you believe the head of the household makes the rules for all who live within.
Every single one of your accusations is a confession, dude.
You already reminded us that you bring only negative content to these conversations. You don't need to repeat yourself.
Well, when somebody asks "who are you going to believe: me, or your lying eyes", we know QA will decide the former if the latter makes Dhimmicrats look bad.
Why does the identity of the property owner matter? Are you going to accuse him or her of being a Nazi? The video is right there -- you're not being asked to believe some unidentified property owner.
You have no idea who I am, who I support politically or have voted for, or anything else. You're attacking a creation of your own imagination. Please take your mind-reading delusions elsewhere.
https://twitter.com/BillFOXLA/status/1559959296707891201
"The landowner allows both TX DPS/National Guard and Border Patrol to work here."
They don't have to admit people to processing centers -- that's entirely a Biden administration action (remember what this is about?).
And this town is on the border -- it seems likely that they were mere feet into the US side of the border. Unfortunately, the Biden administration has chosen (another action!) to leave the border unprotected and inviting to illegal entrants, whether they're immigrants or drug traffickers or terrorists or others.
If I wanted to know his opinion, I would ask him. We can see what your answer is: Rather than address a simple question, you launch into personal insults.
Did you just read the first tweet?
Bill Melugin
@BillFOXLA
Aug 17
Replying to
@BillFOXLA
Border Patrol opening gates etc to allow migrants in is not new. They have to process migrants on U.S. soil per federal law. What’s new is TX is now closing the gate & denying entry at this major crossing location. Always open in months past, including this video I shot in May.
When bernard11 misses the point, he really misses the point.
You wanted to know how TNG went in to close it -- I told you.
You wanted to know why opening the gate was relevant -- I told you.
Now you double down on the QA-rebutting "the Biden administration should be the one making these choices and opening these gates" argument. Point your bullshit detector in QA's direction to properly calibrate it.
You used simping in a sentence.
We can infer a lot from that actually.
No, I mean that what Soviets told about the "kulaks" were mostly lies.