The Volokh Conspiracy
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The Increasingly Dangerous Variants of the "Most-Favored-Nation" Theory of Religious Liberty, Part III: Misconstruing the State Interest
Here I will consider how the MFN theory was expanded to its present bloated proportions. Recently members of the Court, and sometimes a majority, have developed variants of MFN that are far more far-reaching and skeptical than the modest heightened scrutiny suggested by Lukumi.
The key innovation, pioneered by Justice Gorsuch in his concurrence in Masterpiece Cakeshop, Ltd. v. Colorado Civil Rights Commission (a case that did not mention MFN at all) and pursued further in his opinions on Covid vaccination, attributes to the challenged law a different purpose than it actually has, and then declares that the state has discriminated by carving out a secular but not a religious exception to that purpose. Call this MFN-2.
Masterpiece Cakeshop involved a challenge to an antidiscrimination statute by Jack Phillips, a baker who refused to make a cake for a same-sex wedding. Gorsuch thought that religious bias was revealed by a second set of cases that arose at about the same time.
William Jack requested cakes displaying antigay inscriptions. When bakers refused, he sued them for religious discrimination. The Colorado courts rejected his claims, because the bakers would not sell such cakes to anyone. Gorsuch however thought the cases were alike. Phillips is happy to sell his products to gay people. He just won't engage in conduct that endorses same-sex weddings. A "cake celebrating same-sex marriage" is part of an event in which he is unwilling to participate. Gorsuch thought that, because Phillips and the bakers who refused Jack's order were alike declining to send messages, their different treatment revealed discrimination against Phillips's religion.
That claim was not confined to Gorsuch's concurrence. Justice Kennedy's majority opinion summarily declared an "indication of hostility [in] the difference in treatment between Phillips' case and the cases of other bakers who objected to a requested cake on the basis of conscience and prevailed before the Commission." This summary statement is, perhaps, an early embrace of MFN-2 by the Court. If so, it is so conclusory that we must look to Gorsuch for an account of the reasoning.
Justice Kagan responded that what Phillips refused to sell "was simply a wedding cake—one that (like other standard wedding cakes) is suitable for use at same-sex and opposite-sex weddings." Jack's case is different, because the bakers would not have sold the cake he requested to anyone. Those cakes manifested his religious views, but there is no obligation to sell products that manifest religious views. A vendor of hats is permitted to omit yarmulkes from its inventory. The actions of the bakers in Jack's case were not excused by exceptions to the statute. They were outside its coverage.
Gorsuch's reasoning overlooks the level of generality at which Colorado law actually operates. The state explained in its brief: "If a retail bakery will sell a cake of a particular design to some customers, it has no constitutional right to withhold that same cake from others because of their race, sex, faith, or sexual orientation." The bakers Jack approached would not have sold the cakes he requested to anyone. The state's brief continues:
But businesses do not violate public accommodations laws when, relying upon general terms of service, they decline to sell products with particular designs to all of their customers. Businesses trigger those laws only when they refuse to sell a product to customers because of their protected characteristics, despite selling the same product to others.
Phillips would have sold the identical cakes to heterosexual couples.
Gorsuch also deploys MFN-2 in Dr. A. v. Hochul, in which a state allowed medical but not religious exemptions from a vaccine requirement for health care workers. He takes the pertinent state interest to be getting people vaccinated in order to achieve herd immunity. But the state asserted a different interest: promoting public health. That end is not promoted by vaccinating people for whom it is medically counterindicated. It is promoted by vaccinating the religious. It is thus not true that the secular exemption "undermines the government's asserted interests in a similar way." He can reach that conclusion only by mischaracterizing the government interests.
A judge who feels free to do this is absolutely unconstrained. He can find religious discrimination in any law he likes, by deeming any boundary to a statute's scope—and all statutes are bounded; none regulate all of human conduct—to be an exception to the purpose of the statute.
Note that MFN-2 is merely a triggering right that generates strict scrutiny. It does not say anything about how a court should proceed when it applies that scrutiny. Because MFN-2 misconceives the state interest, however, it makes it likely that the strict scrutiny analysis will be botched, because the court is already committed to misunderstanding the interest that the state is promoting. This, we shall see, is precisely what happens in MFN-6.
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Reminder: Masterpiece Cakeshop was decided PURELY because the Supreme Court held that ". . . Phillips (Masterpiece owner) did not receive this neutral treatment, with members of the Commission showing clear and impermissible hostility toward his religious beliefs. The Court explained that commissioners' comments disparaging Phillips' beliefs and characterizing them as rhetorical were inappropriate, though these comments were not mentioned or disavowed in subsequent legal proceedings. The Court concluded that these comments cast doubt on the fairness of the Commission's consideration of Phillips' claims." (oyez)
The SC did NOT make a decision on whether the ". . . Colorado law at issue in this case, which prohibited discrimination against gay people in purchasing products and services. . . ," was itself unconstitutional.
All of which has been par for the course with the SC. Mostly deciding on the narrowest grounds.
Right, I've said that the Court essentially said to the Commission, "If you're going to act on anti-religious animus, don't say so, morons. Just do it." They basically gave Colorado a road map on how to crush people like Phillips without the Court stopping them.
Now, I don't expect Koppelman to object to public accommodations laws, he's no libertarian, and doesn't claim to be one. But they really exemplify the wrong turn we took on civil rights back in the 60's. Anti-discrimination law is a cancer eating away at our liberty.
"Anti-discrimination law is a cancer eating away at our liberty."
I understand this comment. They constrain capital "F" Freedom. The problem is, History is also a thing. Without anti-discrimination laws, we experienced far greater and far less tolerable insults to citizens' freedom and equality--especially in the marketplace. So we're stuck with having to place statutory guardrails around the "I'm a Sovereign Person" theory of human free will.
Remember that a lot of those insults you're talking about were either a result of government mandates, or enforced by private violence that was permitted by government being deliberately selective in enforcing the law.
Both that affirmative discrimination, and that selective enforcement, were contrary to the 14th amendment, and so you could have drastically cut back on the insults without going beyond simply enforcing the 14th amendment as written.
Would that have been sufficient? We'll never know, because we didn't go down that road. We went straight from mandated discrimination to mandated non-discrimination, which then predictably morphed back into mandated discrimination again.
And now we're fighting that some old battle again, decades later, I think exactly because we DID go down the wrong road, and so our efforts to fight discrimination were fatally flawed from the start.
You STILL deny de facto discrimination was a widespread thing in the Jim Crow South?
Pathetic. You can't deal with the facts, so you just keep forgetting that they exist.
Like segregated schools. Many of those were not governmentally mandated, and kept so by general practice. Your pinched view of freedom would have required that the government be unable to address that status quo.
Plus, of course, economic freedom is great for folks like you and I, not so great for those who economic necessity dictates much of their lives. To heck with that kind of freedom, though - the only freedom that matters is low taxes and allowing de facto segregation!
"You STILL deny de facto discrimination was a widespread thing in the Jim Crow South?"
When did I ever deny that? When did I even say anything that might suggest that?
What I said was that Jim Crow was a combination of governmental discrimination, which directly violated the 14th amendment, and private discrimination, much of which was enforced by private violence against anybody who didn't participate, which private violence was enabled by selective law enforcement, again a 14th amendment violation.
We have no idea how much of that discrimination was spontaneous, rather than enforced. We never tried just getting rid of the enforcement, and seeing what people would do if they were free.
We went straight from mandated discrimination, to mandated non-discrimination, and again, it was perfectly predictable that latter would evolve back into mandated discrimination again; It did not take long for goals to evolve into quotas, not long at all.
We will likely never know how things would have turned out if we'd just enforced the 14th amendment, and otherwise left people free.
Suppose for sake of argument that the government was responsible for 90% of Jim Crow. So what? That's not a reason to do nothing about the remaining 10%, while also doing something about the 90%. This is just your usual let's change the subject. "This you ought to have done, while not neglecting the other."
But if you remove 90% of GOVERNMENT subsidized supply, how much demand would there really have been for it? I think that is point.
The FIRST thing to do was remove the government created part of the problem, and NOT have the government fix it by creating new problems.
Don't know how old you are, but I'm old enough to remember when it wasn't illegal to discriminate, with the result that blacks, women, Native Americans, sometimes those of disfavored religions, were basically shut out of the most profitable parts of the economy. (My local newspaper's help wanted ads actually had separate sections: Jobs for white men, jobs for negro men, jobs for white women, jobs for negro women.) A moving company said in its television commercials that you should hire them because they only hire whites. That's not because of government coercion; that's because they knew their (private) customers, and those customers really were racist. And that created a whole set of social problems that it's not unreasonable for the government to try to fix.
We can have a discussion about the extent to which anti-discrimination laws have actually made the problem better, but the idea that the government should just allow those kinds of social problems to fester is one that has been soundly rejected by most Americans. The fact that a black American child can now aspire to be a surgeon or a stockbroker rather than a truck driver or a janitor is a good thing.
It's been pointed out to you that without antidiscrimination laws, there will be discrimination. And we DO know how things would have turned out - we have history to show us how unfree such a status quo would be, in implementation. It wasn't the government, it was *people* and we're not changing people.
But you pivot to blaming the government for every evil, both from discrimination and for not letting people discriminate. And deny the history that shows how tyrannical the world you want would be like.
If you won't listen to history, lets look at how mad you are at twitter. a private company, for it's (perceived by you) picking and choosing who it accommodates with it's service. And yet you want to allow other institutions to do the same thing. If it's white supremacists, 2020 truthers, and vaxx deniers, it's a big deal. If it's blacks and gays it's just how rights work.
Holding a financial sword of Damoclese over Internet media companies that you'll kill their profits and stock prices by opening them up to lawsuits, bu cancelling section 230, unless they censor in ways those in power demand is not free citizens deciding freely to do these things.
It's the greatest financial threat to censor ever on this planet, and second only to threatening to kidnap their relatives and rip out their fingernails.
"It's been pointed out to you that without antidiscrimination laws, there will be discrimination."
And. I. Don't. Care.
Or to be more precise, I care, but in the same precise way I care about other choices people make that I think are wrong, but that they're entitled to make them anyway.
People are entitled to discriminate. They're not entitled to rob, or assault, or a long list of things, but discrimination is just the exercise of private choices in the realm where people get to MAKE private choices. Even choices I don't agree with!
Why, even, shockingly, choices YOU don't agree with.
"And we DO know how things would have turned out."
No. We. Don't. That counterfactual world isn't available to us to examine. We can only speculate about what would have happened, we can't know. We will never know, because we didn't leave people free. We went from mandate to mandate, instead.
Good points.
I'd add that with antidiscrimination laws, there will be discrimination, including discrimination that we don't like or that is supposed to be outlawed. As you said - all they have to do is not say they are doing it.
Fundamentally, "discrimination" means distinguishing between different things or making a choice between things. There are only a few rare types of discrimination that nearly everyone thinks is wrong, and others where there is widespread disagreement about whether it is wrong, and then there is a lot of discrimination that a lot of people think is good (such as, increasingly, discriminating against political opponents or people who disagree with your opinions), and then most of the acts of distinguishing is just everyday business that nobody thinks about.
What's interesting is that in certain localized places and times in history, the types of discrimination that nearly everyone now disagrees with were common enough that people would be unfairly deprived of goods and services. Today, that doesn't happen, except maybe when political dissidents are cut off from financial services and communications platforms. But let's assume people being cut off from access to goods and services is not part of the rationale for a particular antidiscrimination law. What, then, are you left with? You are left with a sort of dignitary harm and an antidiscrimination law that, at its core, punishes the expression of disapproved viewpoints.
If you don't care about allowing widespread discrimination, you don't care about freedom in any non-theoretical way. Simple as that.
Your understanding of what we're entitled to do died with the 14A after the Civil War.
This isn't about choices I disagree with, this is about deciding that an evil society is OK because you think the Constitution allows that evil. Well, it doesn't.
I like engaging with you because unlike many on here, you argue in good faith. But good lord your view of the world is narrow; it encompasses you and your take on the Constitution and nothing else.
And of course ML inches towards white nationalism more and more each day.
Just say the 14 words and be done with it at this point.
Are you okay Sarc? You seem a little more trigger happy than usual with the outlandish accusations and vilifications.
That counterfactual world isn't available to us to examine.
Of course it is, because it's not counterfactual. There were places and areas of activity - plenty of them - where there now no laws mandating discrimination.
Freedom is, famously, the space between what you shouldn't do, and won't be permitted to do, between what you should do, and will be compelled to do. Everyone who wants to erase the difference between 'shouldn't' and 'can't', between 'should' and 'must', is an enemy of human liberty.
Even if they don't value the liberty to make choices they wouldn't make.
Sarcastro, you are laboring mightily to bring about that "Everything that's not mandatory is forbidden" dystopia. I don't think you'll enjoy it when you find out people will contest your exclusive right to write the rules.
Everyone who wants to erase the difference between 'shouldn't' and 'can't', between 'should' and 'must', is an enemy of human liberty.
You're hysterical.
Deciding what you can't do, or must do, is part of what organized society does. That doesn't imply a desire to "erase" anything, just to figure out what rules are just and in the interests of the society and its members.
You claim Sarcastro wants to write the rules, but it is you who wants to do that, you who wants to erase rules you don't like for no reason other than your ideological fantasies.
You are entitled to your value system, Brett, but stop acting as if it's self-evidently correct, and anyone who doesn't share it is enabling tyranny.
People are entitled to discriminate. They're not entitled to rob, or assault, or a long list of things, but discrimination is just the exercise of private choices in the realm where people get to MAKE private choices.
So what is the principle by which some behavior gets on the "long list" of things people are not entitled to do?
Is it harm to others? Then let me say that systematic discrimination against a group of people based on some harmless characteristic they share in fact does members of that group a lot of harm.
We have no idea how much of that discrimination was spontaneous, rather than enforced.
How many times does it need to be pointed out to you that a huge part of that discrimination was spontaneous, and that in many cases what you call a "mandate" was not much of a binding constraint.
There was all kinds of discrimination, in the South and elsewhere, that was not mandated, and the mandates were enormously popular. If you don't believe me just go learn about political campaigns in the South during that era. The candidates competed vigorously to see who was the biggest segregationist. And why exactly do you think state governments tolerated private enforcement, to the extent it was a factor, other than that, by and large, the populace - the white populace, that is - didn't object.
We never tried just getting rid of the enforcement, and seeing what people would do if they were free.
Actually, we did. There were lots of places that were segregated without any Jim Crow laws. Indeed, as I've pointed to you many times, there were hardly any laws mandating discrimination in employment, yet it was virtually universal.
IOW, your arguments are juvenile libertarianism, completely out of touch with reality.
You seem to confuse "pointed out" and "asserted". No biggy, it's a common mistake.
No, Brett.
Stating a fact is not simply "asserting."
Do you seriously believe that segregation existed only where it was required by law? Because that's simply not true, and if you'd trouble yourself to get some facts you'd know it. But you dwell in the realm of libertarian fantasy.
Everything I wrote was factual. If you had evidence to the contrary you'd provide it, instead of responding with some silly snark.
Again, Brett, look at how schools segregation was enforced.
You are working extremely hard to hew to a view of human nature that has many many counterexamples throughout history.
It would be nice if Koppelman admitted that error.
Isn't Kagan's dissent also incorrect about the facts of the case, specifically the assertion that what they wanted "was simply a wedding cake—one that (like other standard wedding cakes) is suitable for use at same-sex and opposite-sex weddings"? Early sympathetic reports, successfully memory-holed, cited the couple discussing how flamboyantly themed the cake would be.
Yeah, the plaintiffs were quite open and frank about what they requested back when it got them a sympathetic ear in the media (see a large collection of similar contemporaneous articles here).
Compare that with the "just any wedding cake at all" snap-pivot after they got a lawyer and the original story was no longer convenient to their case.
Per the link: "rainbow layered with teal and red frosting."
Some could call that flamboyant. Sounds par for the course at a child's birthday party. People have all kinds of tacky cake design requests. The record does not reflect that Phillips was fighting about artistic quality. *shrug
FWIW here's a Google image of the shop and some of the cakes. (The store's website appears to be down.)
https://www.nationalreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/03/Jack-Phillips.jpg?w=789
Quality isn't quite the point. One of the primary questions in the case was whether the requested cake was an artistic work or just an off-the-shelf commodity (that's what drove the "bake me a cake!" meme at the time).
This seems to be closer to the key. The left, correctly, spent a long time getting "freedom of expression", i.e. artistic works without words, or even mucb obvious communicative value, protected by the First Amendment.
It's bad form to abandon that when it gets in your way. It's almost like the earlier effort was just a dagger in the craw of the other side, rather than a principled concern.
See also defense of marching Nazis, or horrid speech, now on the choping block because some lawyers-politician-thugs get mileage out of being opposed to those freedoms now.
In a wedding cake, rainbow layering caries a very clear message. They weren't asking him to make a birthday cake.
Are you suggesting that heterosexual couples never request rainbow colors? Or is it only a "very clear message" when the people requesting it are of a particular sex?
On wedding cakes? No, pretty much never, unless there's a Care Bear somewhere on it.
So this is not clear to me, and the various reports seem to differ.
There are two ways they could get a "custom cake."
They could ask Phillips to design one for them, or they could give him their own design and just ask him to put it together and bake it.
The former, ISTM, does ask Phillips to do something expressive. The latter doesn't.
Expression inherent to the design of the cake is one thing, but if that expression varies depending on the sexes of the couple requesting it, then it's not the cake but the customer.
If a heterosexual couple requests a rainbow colored cake, would the baker still deny it based on his religious beliefs? Would he still consider a rainbow cake "forced speech" if the couple is straight? I don't think so. References to "flamboyant" cake design are just a dog whistle.
I don't disagree.
It is my understanding, not contradicted by your link, Phillips categorically rejected creating any customized cake once he found out it was to be used by a gay couple.
Is your understanding supported by any coverage from around that time?
But switching gears a bit. Do you believe mens rea is a proper element of a crime? If so, can it similarly be understood as an element of sin?
I based my understanding on this statement from Eugene's amicus brief:
"That is a plain misstatement of the facts. The record shows that the Colorado baker, Jack Phillips, happily produces goods for customers without regard to their sexual orientation. He does not discriminate among types of customer; instead, he (like the dressmaker) refuses to create cakes that celebrate ideas of which he disapproves."
https://reason.com/volokh/2018/03/06/dressmakers-bakers-and-the-equality-of-r/
Right. Which is 100% consistent with my claim that Phillips categorically refuses to customize a cake for a same-sex marriage, even if that cake is visually identical to a cake used in a opposite-sex marriage.
That seems a little too hypothetical and finely drawn distinction to be supported by the record, but ok.
What do you think about the point made by McConnell at the link?
"And just as there are many designers "who would happily, and without reservation, create a splendid wardrobe for the first lady," the record in the Colorado case shows that there were dozens of bakers in close proximity to Masterpiece Cakeshop who would happily create a cake for their occasion. This means there is no practical burden on Melania or on the couple from the denial of service—only the insult that comes from knowing that another human being disapproves, which is precisely what the dressmaker and the baker wish to communicate, and the government has no right to prevent."
McConnell's opinion only relates to the policy soundness of anti-discrimination laws, not the MFN standard (I happen to disagree with McConnell, but that is besides the point of this post).
I do not question that Phillips believed he was complicit in sin by categorically refusing to create a custom cake for a same-sex wedding. But, that's not relevant to Koppelman's point.
What do you think Koppelman's point is? That the state (which lost because it insufficiently veiled its animus) was right when it claimed a baker has no constitutional right to make that kind of decision?
I personally would not cite a bare assertion by a losing party as evidence of a legal fact, but others might roll differently.
Koppelman argues the same thing Kagan argued: the state could neutrally apply its law (even though it did not in this case because of the actions of the civil rights commission) by saying Philips violated it and Jack did not.
The same set of facts were stipulated by Phillips:
You mean any such cake once he found out it was to be used for a gay wedding. If they had said, "We want a rainbow layer cake for my birthday," he (asserts that he) would not have had a problem with making it.
Correct.
Setting aside the bizarreness of calling a "rainbow layer cake" "flamboyant," the actual undisputed fact was that they never got to the point of telling him what design they wanted. They said, "We want a cake for our gay wedding," and he said, "I don't do that." (I'm paraphrasing, of course.) And then they left.
Phillips would have sold the identical cakes to heterosexual couples.
Only for a really curious definition of "identical" which is in no way the common English usage. In fact, it's a polar opposite.
And the difference is concisely the difference in this discussion.
It would have has an identical chemical composition, duh! The 'look and feel' isn't an expressive or protected element of a product ... hmm.
Phillips would have sold the identical cakes to heterosexual couples.
It just seems transparently of bad form to accuse your opponent of twisting the meaning of laws by using a twisted meaning of words.
Identical means "exactly the same". It does not mean "anything which uses Roman characters to convey a message". Rather, it means that the message is the same message.
Time to refresh Orwell.
My understanding is Phillips categorically refused to customize any cake once he knew it would be used at a same-sex wedding. That would include a cake that is identical in every way to a cake to be used at an opposite-sex wedding (perhaps a cake that did not mention the sexes of the couple or have any words at all).
Not. He refused to create a cake which was overtly same-sex marriage themed.
He made it very clear that he had no problem doing business with gays, rather, he had a problem creating pro same sex marriage artistry.
From the other thread
” Phillips replied that he does not “create wedding cakes for same-sex weddings.”
So you, and it's you alone, interpret this as a complete denial of his clearly stated claim that he has no problem doing business with gays? By this nonsensical interpretation, he would have refused to sell a generic, unthemed cake if he knew the intent was to use it in a gay marriage. That's radically opposed to what Phillips said and was all about, and I think you owe him an apology.
No. I asserted:
which was confirmed by your quote:
There is a wide gap between "doing business with gays" and a refusal to sell a specific product to gays despite being willing to sell them any other product. So sure, they could buy all the birthday cakes they wanted, but no wedding cakes. While at the same time being willing to sell the full list of his products to heterosexuals.
The intended use of the product does not reflect on the baker who created the confection. Phillips' refusal was entirely based on the sexes of his customer and not how the product would be used--which is 100% identical to how a heterosexual couple would use the product.
It does. I understand that antidiscrimination law is very important to liberals, and they therefore do not want to see exceptions to it. But the way to do that is to say, "There is a compelling government interest in enforcing these laws uniformly," not by pretending that a merchant or artist is no different than a robot.
If someone said, "I want you to make a birthday cake which we're going to use at our annual Hitler's Birthday celebration," would anyone suggest that the baker saying, "Sure, why not?" does not reflect on the baker?
If it were the 1980s and the South African embassy were holding a reception for the country's Independence Day, and a baker said, "No, I oppose apartheid so I won't make you a cake for that," would anyone suggest that the baker was being irrational because after all it's just a cake and doesn't reflect on him?
The last bit is core to the pro-BDS movement: to do business with them approves; to not do business frowny-faces them.
Why is this an important right when it's something you support frowny-facing, but not when someone else does it?
I'm amused to be the third person focused on this sentence:
"Phillips would have sold the identical cakes to heterosexual couples."
Spoken like someone who has never gone shopping for a wedding cake. Wedding cakes are not 'identical cakes' - they're unique creations.
IIRC (and I'm willing to be mistaken here), Phillips would have allowed the gay couple to choose any cake in his display case or any of his standard cakes, he just wouldn't make them a unique wedding cake. At which point, he would not have made an identical cake for anyone, because what they wanted wasn't a cake he normally offered.
Here's a counter-example. A company that makes custom crosses for churches receives an inquiry from a minister asking to make a cross. The minister provides the design specs to the owner, who then asks, "What's the name of your church?" The minister answers: "First Church of Satan. We plan to to put the cross upside down in our sanctuary in order to convey our belief in the falsity of Christ. It will be placed right behind the altar on which we celebrate the `black mass' in honor of Lord Lucifer. That's why we want the cross to look as authentic as it would if it were found in a real Christian Church. It makes the mockery all the more thrilling."
Suppose an hour earlier an Anglican minister had ordered a cross for his church with the exact same specs. From all appearances both crosses would seem identical, but from the perspective of the Anglican minister (and other like-minded Christians) they are not.
To say they are "identical" because of mere appearance is to imply that the meaning of objects depends exclusively on quantifiable measurements and empirically detectable properties. But that begs the question in favor of a perspective that implicitly denies the existence of sacred objects. If the state were to take that position, then it would violate its commitment to religious neutrality.
Well don't stop there. Let's go whole hog on this hypothetical!
Assume the company that makes Christian crosses is owned by a racist bigot who thinks black people bear the mark of Cain and should be shunned forever. He refuses to make a Christian cross for a Black Baptist church because they're "N----ers suffering the scourge of God" and tells the minister so when he refuses the order. Let's assume this violates his state's anti-discrimination statute.
Same result? Are you equally concerned about protecting the bigot's sacred "religious" views?
Yes.
Despicable.
Despicable people are still entitled to fundamental rights.
Business licenses are not a fundamental right.
Speech and religion are.
And what on earth does this have to do with "business licenses"?
No, doing business was a fundamental right, until the courts turned hostile to economic liberty. Business licenses are an infringement of that right.
You're pushing the hypothetical back into "bake me a cake!" territory. There's no dispute that Jack Phillips cheerfully sold commodity baked goods to everyone that entered his store. His wedding cakes, and the custom crosses of the original hypo, aren't commodities.
Doesn't matter -- commoditization is a red herring. A print shop that makes shop awnings isn't "speaking" for 1A purposes when it prints an awning for a LGBT owned store. If the print shop refuses, and that's against state law, it's the same problem. Now make the print shop owner racist like my bigot hypothetical. You get to the same place. In other words, the fact that Jack Philips was prepared to sell some products to gay people but not his whole range of services, isn't the defense. It's not a compelled speech case; the majority intentionally avoided that argument and only (I believe) Justice Thomas engaged it at all.
Also, it's a strange argument to say "my religion allows me to sell to you, but not to sell all my services to you." It's like a tailor who will sell pants to everyone but not hem for certain people because "my religion hates gays/blacks/women/jews/redheads/etc."
No, it's not a compelled speech case, and I routinely deplore the way all our liberties get shoehorned into the 1st amendment, just because it's really the only amendment the courts take seriously.
It's a compelled labor case. Involuntary servitude.
We can't, ordinarily, legally order a person to take a job with a specific employer, utterly without regard to why they refuse to take the job. They can be discriminating on any basis they want, and it just doesn't matter, because it's understood that, outside of conscription, people have the plenary power to refuse employment. A consequence of the 13th amendment.
Philips is a laborer, his job is baking cakes. And the state proposes to force him to labor for somebody he doesn't want to labor for. If it weren't for the fact that he has a storefront and advertises his labor, nobody would fail to realize that this is a classic 13th amendment case.
But as part of the courts' turn against economic liberties, they refuse to recognize 13th amendment violations committed against people who enter into business. The moment you form a business, poof! Most of your rights evaporate.
Craig and Mullins could discriminate on any basis they wanted in hiring a baker, so long as they didn't start a business. They're free. Philips has no right to refuse customers the courts will respect, because he gave them away the day he started his business.
It is not involuntary labor. A person understands the requirements of doing business in any given city/state and agrees to abide by those requirements when they request a business license. They can decline to do business if they are not willing to meet those requirements. Their labor is voluntary.
Why do people think they're clever by coming up with this stupid argument over and over again?
Business licenses have nothing to do with "agreement" to "abide by" anything, and antidiscrimination law has nothing whatsoever to do with business licenses or agreement. Antidiscrimination requirements are imposed on everyone engaged in commerce whether they have a license or not, whether they agreed to anything, whether those laws existed at the time they got such a license or were invented decades later.
A business license is just a tax. That's all it is.
Yeah, Brett, if you think about it, not letting people use the sweat of their brow to enslave other people is actually enslavement!
You've reduced what compel and labor mean to the point that they are useless concepts; congrats.
Maybe this is the crux of why you think your hypo fits and I don't.
Jack Phillips would have sold a custom wedding cake for a straight wedding, regardless of the sexual orientation of the purchaser.
Jack Phillips would not have sold a custom wedding cake for a gay wedding, regardless of the sexual orientation of the purchaser.
So it just doesn't fit the mold of "refuse to do X for protected class Y." It's "refuse to do X for anyone."
Okay. So if I refuse to sell a cake decorated for K'Waun's birthday, but I will sell one for Lars' birthday, I'm not discriminating? Or I am discriminating but I'm entitled to because you believe anti-discrimination laws are bogus?
Does it help or hurt if I also say, "I don't support black people's birthdays because my religion says God is punishing them?"
Am I on better footing if I agree I'll sell a black funeral cake for K'Waun?
Yes, it is.
That's not even a little bit strange. Being gay isn't the sin in their religion's eyes; certain actions are. A birthday cake is neutral; a gay wedding is encouraging/endorsing gay stuff.
Love the sinner, hate the sin, or something to that effect.
I refer you to the iconic work of Jeremih, "Birthday Sex."
An apoplectic face, purple with rage, screams, "You have no business forcing me to do business with Israel! That shows my approval of them!"
Let's extend your hypothetical a bit to test Koppelman's argument.
Consider a second baker faced with the choice of making two cakes, one that reads "Christ is The Savior" and the other that reads "Satan is The Savior." Of course, the baker would refuse to make the latter cake for anyone and Koppelman would distinguish that case from your hypothetical where the baker would make a visually identical cake for only the Anglicans. And then you counter, the two cases really aren't different because the baker is expressing hostility towards Satanism in both cases. And you have a good point.
However even if we accept Koppelman's distinction, the baker is nonetheless discriminating on the basis of religion by refusing to sell "Satan is the Savior" to anyone because the message is inherently religious. In contrast, Jack refused to make a cake for anyone with a religious message against homosexuality but equally would have refused to make a cake for anyone with a secular message against homosexuality. Thus, Jack was not discriminating on the basis of religion, although he likely was discriminating on the basis of ideology which is permitted in Colorado.
That is, the distinction between refusing to sell a visually identical case to one class of people and all people is just the beginning of the analysis. Other factors need to be taken into account on whether that distinction leads to different conclusions.
However even if we accept Koppelman's distinction, the baker is nonetheless discriminating on the basis of religion by refusing to sell "Satan is the Savior" to anyone because the message is inherently religious.
The 1st amendment defends one's right to discriminate on the basis of religion, and almost anything else, when selecting one's statements.
That statement is too broad. One has to account for commercial speech and hate speech exceptions to 1A, among other things.
And Smith and MFN. That's the whole point of Koppelman's posts!
There is no "hate speech exception to 1A," and none of this is "commercial speech" as that term is used in 1A law. (Commercial speech does not mean "speech that is sold"; if it did, then the NYT would be commercial speech. Commercial speech is speech that proposes a business transaction — advertising, most of the time.)
Rapidly getting torn apart here, Koppelman.
I do agree that animus is not the right way to get to this result. Freedom of speech, freedom to exercise religion, freedom of association each are more than sufficient.
@Koppleman:
(1) This is the weakest part of your taxonomy. Let's grant that misconstruing intent is definitely possible. Still and all - that's not a "theory." There's no legal theory that goes:
* First, misconstrue intent so as to mis-state the issue.
* Then grant strict scrutiny based on misconstrued intent.
To the extent that Gorsuch or others misconstrued intent, that's a legal failing and not a legal theory. MFN-2 doesn't exist.
(2) In Masterpiece, I'm unconvinced that Gorsuch was wrong. IIRC, Phillips made it clear that he was happy to sell unadorned cakes to the plaintiffs - just not ones that declared support for a man marrying a man. And that was what they requested. I'm pretty sure this sentence, "Phillips would have sold the identical cakes to heterosexual couples", which follows Kagan's dissent, is factually incorrect. Which is why her side did not carry the day, by 7-2.
Let's see, yep, it's right there in the decision: "Petitioners conceded, moreover, that if a baker refused to sell any goods or any cakes for gay weddings, that would be a different matter and the State would have a strong case under this Court’s precedents that this would be a denial of goods and services that went beyond any protected rights of a baker who offers goods and services to the general public and is subject to a neutrally applied and generally applicable public accommodations law. See Tr. of Oral Arg. 4-7, 10.
Phillips claims, however, that a narrower issue is presented. He argues that he had to use his artistic skills to make an expressive statement, a wedding endorsement in his own voice and of his own creation. As Phillips would see the case, this contention has a significant First Amendment speech component and implicates his deep and sincere religious beliefs. In this context the baker likely found it difficult to find a line where the customers’ rights to goods and services became a demand for him to exercise the right of his own personal expression for their message, a message he could not express in a way consistent with his religious beliefs."
Despite the persistent attempts to conflate the two acts, Phillips clearly distinguished between
(a) Selling generic goods to people because of their orientation, and
(b) Engaging his creative faculties to express a particular message.
Those aren't the same, and many many people are confused on this point.
Because the courts are the ultimate arbiter of intent, if it it is a legal failing, it's one without a remedy. Thus, it might as well be characterized as a legal theory.
Kagan was one of the 7, so it's hard to conclude her dissent was rejected by the majority.
Since Phillips categorically rejected creating any customized cake for a same-sex wedding, even one that had no message on it, it's the use of the cake that carried the message, not what was on the cake. The same could be said for off-the-shelf cakes, and Roberts was puzzled at oral arguments as to why Phillips would agree to sell those as well. I can only guess the distinction is Phillips' knowledge of what the cake would be used for at the time he created it and somehow that knowledge makes what appears to make visually identical cakes different (I'm not persuaded).
"Kagan was one of the 7" - absolutely correct. My memory was faulty.
"Since Phillips categorically rejected creating any customized cake for a same-sex wedding, even one that had no message on it..."
Did he? It's hard to imagine a wedding cake with no message. What makes it a wedding cake at that point?
He did. It's a wedding cake based on how it is used.
Hm. I'm not convinced that you aren't glossing over the word "design." (in another place you quote it as "create", equally weighty).
Both words place Phillips in the situation of having to artistically make a statement. Which, I believe is constitutionally his right to refuse.
I don't think we got to the point of testing Phillips:
Would you sell gays a generic wedding cake off the shelf, assuming there could be such?
That would have to be the test of whether he is refusing the person or the message.
As I said in my initial reply to you, Phillips is on record as saying he would sell the couple an off-the-shelf cake they choose to use in their wedding (which puzzled Roberts at oral arguments). But, he will not create/design/customize a cake for a same-sex wedding even if the cake is visually identical to another he was willing to create for an opposite-sex wedding.
Thus for us to conclude that Phillips is refusing the message and not the person, the message must be able to be completely determined by how the cake is used without regard to how he designed it. And if that analysis holds, then it must also be the case the limo driver can refuse to serve the wedding because of the message and not the person. That conclusion strikes me as incorrect, and therefore, Phillips is refusing the person.
One final volley and I'll leave it. Thanks for the discussion.
"But, he will not create/design/customize a cake for a same-sex wedding even if the cake is visually identical to another he was willing to create for an opposite-sex wedding.
Thus for us to conclude that Phillips is refusing the message and not the person, the message must be able to be completely determined by how the cake is used without regard to how he designed it. And if that analysis holds, then it must also be the case the limo driver can refuse to serve the wedding because of the message and not the person. That conclusion strikes me as incorrect, and therefore, Phillips is refusing the person."
This breaks down next to the limousine. Artistry is long held to be expressive behavior; driving is not. The reason the limo driver could (probably) not refuse to serve the wedding is that he would not be engaging in any particular speech. That is the real reason that the conclusion is incorrect.
This analysis seems to be consistent with how SCOTUS has treated other claimants, generally refusing to hear cases that are based on services without clear expressive speech.
Smith v Colorado will tell us what SCOTUS really thinks.
Your freedom of speech argument is not relevant to Koppelman's assertion that MNF was incorrectly expanded by Gorsuch's improper analysis of whether Phillips refused the person.
As you are probably, aware Eugene doesn't think cake making is inherently expressive and Phillips should lose his compelled speech case, but Smith should win his because web design is inherently expressive.
SCOTUS elided the compelled speech question and focused on the compelled conduct, i.e. free exercise question. Phillips' issue was working on a wedding cake for a gay couple, not the fact that it was a rainbow layer cake. He would sell a standard cake to a gay couple, but not work on one knowing who/what it was for--regardless of the messaging. For example, he didn't offer to make a gay wedding cake that had less rainbow; which is what he might have done if the problem were the "speech" component.
Except he did by offering to let them buy any of the off the shelf cakes available in his shop.
The opinion of the court in Masterpiece Cakeshop never reached any of these issues. It focused on the conduct of and statements made by commissioners who formed the hearing tribunal. The Court concluded that the bakers had not gotten a fair hearing, and never reached the underlying merits.
I think, in many of these cases, there was a disputed question of fact. They claimed they had been asked to do a custom wedding cake specifically for and attuned to the wedding. Justice Gorsuch accepted this argument. Justice Ginsberg, whom Professor Koppelman apparently believes, claimed they had been asked to bake only a generic wedding cake no different from any other. What are the real facts here? I honestly don’t know.
I would hesitate to give Masterpiece Cakeshop a lot of meaning or weight. Cake-decorating is one of a number of professions that lie at the fuzzy boundary of protected First Amendment expression. Is it a kind of speech or isn’t it? Does it apply to the profession as a whole or depend on the specific nature of the decorating job done in each case? Reasonable people can disagree.
Although how classify the boundary cases may give rise to a lot of heated argument, it’s necessarily so important in the scheme of things. The boundary cases are only a small portion of the total, and not necessarily very important cases either.
So if the bakers claims about the facts are correct, Justice Gorsuch has a point. If the plaintiffs claims about the facts are correct, Justice Ginsberg has a point.
I don’t this the particular case necessarily reflects the huge difference in legal analysis approach Professor Koppelman is suggesting. I think it reflects different views of the facts. I understand it certainly says something that Justice Ginsberg was inclined to believe the plaintiffs while Justice Gorsuch was inclined to believe the defendants.
If the merits were being addressed, I think the Justices might have needed to go into detail and discuss what the intended cake actually was, whether its features were expressive or not, whether they were tailored specifically to a gay wedding or not. Perhaps it might have been more approapriate a legal standard for when a wedding is a simple generic product and when it articulates a specific message and then remand.
But I think that even if one were inclined to regard wedding cakes in general as articulating expressive message, this would still be a boundary case, and how the boundary gets called, and whether one things the call correct or not, doesn’t necessarily make a big difference im the big scheme of things. Sometimes the cases that stir the most controversy, where there is a good argument both ways and both ways have lots of supporters, are the cases where which side one calls it on doesn’t actually really matter.
Does a coat of superstition improve bigotry, or make it any more attractive, or make it anything other than bigotry?
Bigots -- gay-bashing jerks, in this context -- have rights, too, of course . . . but not the right to dodge being recognized or described as a bigot.
Yes, a bigot like you>
Carry on dipwad.
These bigots lead wars costing gigadeaths over the millenia. This is why the detente between them, the First Amendment, to deny the possiblity of any one faction gaining ascendancy and control of the new federal government, was such a wonderful development for humanity.
Yes, these are bigots, and there is fallout from this principle you may not like. I remind you: gigadeaths without it. And the sitch in America today would probably be far, far worse for groups of your concern without it.
People should be entitled to believe as they wish.
Reasonable accommodation of conscience (including minority perspectives, and points of conscience associated with religion) seems a good idea to me.
Why do people keep writing this story as if Masterpiece denied selling some premade cake out of the icebox instead of not wanting to create an expressive bespoke work of art?
As we can see with Monkey Pox, apparently homosexual feelings are the most important thing in the universe. More important than free will, more important than public health, and more important than dog heath now.
This discussion addresses special, unearned privilege for the superstitious.
When do we discuss special, unearned privilege for degenerates?
The difference between "achieve herd immunity" and "promoting public health" is the health of the religious objector and nobody else. In the case of COVID-19 governments' motives from the beginning have been to prevent spread, i.e. to move towards herd immunity.
COVID vaccines don't do that, though.
They all want cake.
Qu'il mange le gateau
my french is really rusty, "Qu'ils mangent gateau" would be better. Of course, having considered that I butchered the conjugation, I then remembered that Marie Antoinette isn't actually attributed with saying 'cake', but rather 'brioche', so I looked it up.. it's "Qu'ils mangent de la brioche". Sigh.
c'est vrai