The Volokh Conspiracy
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Will Anti-Abortion States Suffer a Brain Drain?
We won't know the answer for some time. I suspect the drain will be relatively small, if we focus on abortion bans, as such. But it may get larger if anti-abortion laws end up having substantial negative side-effects on other activities.
Since the Supreme Court overruled Roe v. Wade in its decision in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, some commentators have predicted there will be a "brain drain" of highly educated professionals from states that enact or reinstate laws severely restricting abortion. LA Times columnist Michael Hiltzik and The Scientist have published articles predicting a general brain drain away from states with restrictive abortion laws. The Washington Post has an article positing a brain drain of doctors, while Scientific American has one focused on Ob-Gyns. The "brain drain" theory is distinct from - though related to - the idea that people generally will "vote with their feet" for pro-choice jurisdictions. Highly educated professionals might migrate en masse even if few other people do - or vice versa.
Will such a brain drain actually occur? At this point, we don't really know the answer. Less than two months have passed since Dobbs. If it happens, any significant abortion-driven brain drain will probably take many months - or even years - to pick up steam. The articles linked above all rely on a handful of anecdotes rather than systematic data. And even those anecdotes are mostly cases of people saying they might move away from a red state, or turn down an opportunity there - not cases of people actually doing so. That's understandable. Not enough time has passed for us to get any kind of definitive answer. In addition, thanks to Roe v. Wade, there is no modern precedent for the kinds of highly restrictive abortion bans now in force in some red states.
Nonetheless, I think we can do some informed speculation. My tentative view - as a longtime student of foot voting - is that abortion bans, as such, will lead to only a modest brain drain, at most. But some collateral effects of anti-abortion laws could cause a bigger one. It might be bigger still if pro-choice blue states take steps to make themselves more attractive to potential migrants.
The biggest reason why I am skeptical that abortion restrictions, taken in isolation, will cause a large brain drain is that most highly educated women are unlikely to ever get an abortion, and many of those who might need one can potentially avail themselves of various substitutes for getting one in-state. In recent years, abortion has been overwhelmingly concentrated among relatively poor women. Moreover, as discussed in my previous post on abortion and foot voting, contraception, mail-order "medication abortions," and getting an abortion out of state are all potential substitutes for getting an abortion at a medical facility close to home. Each of these is likely to be more easily accessible to relatively affluent professionals than to the poor.
Some red states may try to ban medication abortions or even out-of-state travel to get an abortion. But the former is likely to be extremely hard to police, while laws forbidding the latter are likely to be struck down by the courts - a position endorsed by key Supreme Court swing-voter Justice Brett Kavanaugh. There are at least three strong constitutional arguments against such laws, and courts need only endorse one of these theories for plaintiffs to prevail.
I don't claim these options will be adequate alternatives to in-state abortion rights for all highly educated women in all conceivable circumstances. But they are likely to work for a great many, the vast majority of the time. Combined with the low rate of abortion among the high-income professionals to begin with, that suggests any abortion-related brain drain is likely to be modest in scale.
It's also important to consider the tradeoffs would-be migrants face between abortion rights and other priorities. In recent years, relatively red states like Florida and Texas have had the biggest net population gains from interstate migration. Why? It's not because foot voters love abortion restrictions specifically, or the Republican Party generally. It's primarily because these states offer job opportunities, low taxes, and relatively low housing costs (the latter primarily because they have comparatively few restrictions on building new housing in response to demand). By contrast,the big blue states of New York, Illinois, and California, have been among the biggest net losers. Housing costs and taxes are likely culprits for this trend.
Faced with a tradeoff between abortion rights on the one hand and housing and tax costs on the other, a large majority of highly educated professionals might well choose the latter. The likelihood they or their family members will need an abortion is low, which taxes and housing costs are far harder to avoid. If they do end up needing an abortion, the money saved on housing and taxes could potentially pay for an out-of-state abortion several times over.
To avoid misunderstanding, I should emphasize that I am not opposed to abortion rights. Much the contrary! I think almost all abortions should be legal, and I support the "my body, my choice" principle more comprehensively than even most other pro-choice advocates do. And I particularly abhor Texas' awful SB 8 abortion law. My point here is that, for most of the highly educated people who might cause a brain drain, abortion rights will often be outweighed by other considerations in deciding where to live and work.
Perhaps, however, this kind of cost-benefit approach is the wrong way to look at potential foot-voting choices. Maybe "brains" will shun states with abortion restrictions out of moral and ideological considerations, even if those restrictions have little or no tangible effect on their lives. Perhaps that will indeed happen! But I am skeptical.
Historically, foot voting -at least the kind that takes the form of interstate moves – is usually driven by issues with a significant tangible effect on the lives of the mover and his or her family: taxation, housing costs, job opportunities, widespread discrimination against his or her group, and so on. By contrast, people rarely move to another state merely because of policies they oppose or support for ideological reasons, even though they have little tangible effect on them. It's hard to think of even one significant historical example where these kinds of preferences resulted in large-scale migration.
Symbolic ideological issues can drive less significant forms of foot voting. For example, people with strong feelings on the issue may patronize businesses they see as taking the right stand on the issue (especially if their products are not inferior in price/quality to the competition). But few people make interstate moves because of them, even if they sometimes talk about doing so.
Such talk strikes me as similar to people who say they will move to Canada to protest the election of a GOP president they hate. Only a small percentage of those who say such things ever act on it. Even the election of Trump in 2016 caused only a small ripple of such moves (an increase of only about 1000-2000 per year, at most, which is very small relative to the total population of the US).
By contrast, oppressive policies with large tangible impact on the lives of would-be migrants have at times caused waves of migration to Canada: the persecution of Loyalists after the Revolutionary War (which led to a large migration, relative to the population size at the time), slaves fleeing the Fugitive Slave Acts before the Civil War, and men fleeing the Vietnam-era draft (some 125,000 in all).
Brain drain might be more likely to take the form of people choosing not to move to anti-abortion states in the first place, rather than leaving after previously living there. Young professionals who turn down jobs in Texas or Florida face fewer costs in doing so than people with long-established careers in those states. But if the former type of decision still requires people to turn down opportunities with better pay and benefits - and lower housing and tax costs - it's still a big sacrifice for the sake of abstract principle. Some "brains" might make it. But I am skeptical that many will.
While abortion bans, as such, seem unlikely to lead to a major red-state brain drain, the collateral side-effects of abortion restrictions might be a different story. Some experts predict that state abortion bans might also have the effect of banning IVF fertility treatments. Others contend these laws will interfere with access to a variety of medical treatment for diseases such as arthritis and cancer. The percentage of highly educated professionals who need IVF services or these kinds of medical treatments is likely far larger than the percentage who are likely to need abortions. And, unlike abortion, these kinds of treatments often cannot be secured through one or a few trips out of state, because - among other things - they usually require ongoing supervision by medical professionals.
The same thing may be true of claims that abortion restrictions will interfere with the practices of doctors enough to incentivize some of them to move. Even if most professionals remain largely unaffected by abortion laws, doctors who specialize in relevant fields might experience much greater effects.
I lack the scientific and medical expertise to gauge the full potential extent of these side-effects. If they are smart and competent, anti-abortion state legislatures will carefully draft abortion laws in ways that protect IVF and various medical treatments. But, when it comes to politics, intelligence and competence are often in short supply! The War on Drugs has had some immensely harmful collateral effects, such as undermining medical treatment for chronic pain. Red states' War on Abortion could turn out the same way, even if most pro-lifers don't intend such a result.
A bigger abortion brain drain might also develop if pro-choice blue states adopt policies that make them more enticing to migrants. If they cut back on high taxes and zoning restrictions that inflate housing prices, they might attract many more migrants from red states.
For that reason, among others, pro-choice blue states should become pro-YIMBY. If California could offer people Texas-like housing costs and tax rates, plus also abortion rights, that's a combination many would find hard to resist! That would be true not only of relatively affluent brains, but also of the less affluent people most likely to need abortions.
The above analysis implicitly assumes that abortion regulation will remain largely under the control of the states. That may be the most likely scenario. But it is far from certain. Both Democrats and Republicans have proposals for federal abortion laws; nationwide bans on at least some types of abortion and nationwide preemption of state abortion restrictions, respectively. Whether such federal laws get enacted - and if so, whether courts will uphold them - remains to be seen.
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Leave it to Somin to ask the biting questios that are on everyone's mind.
Meanwhile 100 days on the leaker of Dobb's is is still unknown and Robert's is as silent as a church mouse.
Its a completely stupid thought anyways. Why would someone who is such a leftwing political fanatic that they are going to uproot their whole life over such a relatively minor wedge issue like abortion be in a deep red state in the first place? So they're all for the (according to them) the Christian fundamentalism, cross burning and kkk hoods, but abortion is where they draw the line?
to be accurate it's a "Cross Lighting", Pagan Ritual, you see
The lawyer is the stupidest person in the country.
Anti-abortion laws will birth millions of Democrats, especially diverses.
The Republican legislatures are committing suicide. They will turn our nation into a Democrat shithole
Ilya, who is smarter? A billionaire who lives like an animal in NYC, stressed and miserable, or a dude making $100000, living the high life in Florida?
This is what the dude studies.
"If California could offer people Texas-like housing costs and tax rates, plus also abortion rights, that's a combination many would find hard to resist!"
Until they put down the bong and realize they're still on Planet Earth.
Why does such enlightenment work only one way? Texas politicians are more likely to have abortion rights than California politicians are to dismantle enough government to lower taxes and the cost of living.
P.S. It's not just housing costs, it's everything -- food, fuel, cars, everything in California is more expensive.
true
- but the real issue is short term or long term
- as we know that there are ACTUAL BRAINS being drained by abortion
California has passed bills designed to force local governments to build housing. It's causing quite a stir and I see local frustration on this issue in articles from across the state. Mostly, it's rich people trying to hold on to 1-acre minimum lot sizes for single-family homes as a means to keep the riffraff out.
Tax rates in California, OTOH, won't go down. But this is because Californians constantly vote for tax increases to fund various community projects that are important to the majority of voters. So as long as Californians are willing to pay for these things via taxes, that won't change.
If California could offer people Texas-like housing costs and tax rates, they wouldn't be hemorrhaging people to Texas like they have been. People talk politics but move based on economics.
I’m guessing that most high intelligence women that would move out of a restrictive state won’t need to, i.e. they’ll already be living where abortion rights are not in danger.
If they were of "high Intelligence" chances of getting pregnant unintentionally should be pretty small.
Even very reliable and easy-to-use methods like IUDs have ~1% failure rates per year, so a woman might have something like a one in four chance of an unwanted pregnancy depending on what fraction of her child bearing years she wanted to have children or not. I'm not sure that qualifies as "pretty small".
Bumble, their high intelligence will instruct them that it is unwise to invest in a home and career in a state where the next big thing could be to outlaw contraception. They may reckon that is unlikely, but still too likely. They will stay away.
If they are intelligent, they will know that the idea that a legislature would outlaw contraception is absurd. That's is a transparent lie foisted upon us by people who refuse to listen to the other side that that they are "anti-murder". Because claiming that they are "Pro-Birth" makes them so much easier to villainize.
"high intelligence women"
He said "highly educated", not the same as intelligence.
Sure, but you know what I meant.
Good lord, what a stupid hypothesis. Will people "vote with their feet" by moving to jurisdictions with rules that more closely match their political affiliations and preferences? Of course they will. We've seen that demographic trend for several decades now and this will be another expression of it.
But asking if that will result in a "brain drain" in aggregate implies a correlation between intelligence and political affiliation - a correlation that we know statistically does not exist.
Could you see a trend in which all the Gender Studies PhDs migrate to D-controlled jurisdictions? Sure. But it's not a "brain drain" if a bunch of R-leaning PhDs migrate in the opposite direction. Especially since the Independents will continue to do their best to ignore them both. Only the most out-of-touch elite could call that a "brain drain".
This is an old-ish study by Pew that shows correlation between educational achievement and political party. You said "intelligence" rather than education, granted, but it's a reasonable proxy.
"Across all educational categories, women are more likely than men to affiliate with the Democratic Party or lean Democratic. The Democrats’ advantage is 35 points (64%-29%) among women with post-graduate degrees, but only eight points (50%-42%) among post-grad men."
Since we're talking about PhDs voting with their feet, and women with PhDs are more likely to lean Democrat and are primarily affected by abortion-related laws, I think this is significant.
It's significant only if they hadn't already moved out and this was the straw that broke the camel's back.
I don't disagree. There are a host of factors that could influence a person to leave and I imagine most times it takes more than one or two to really get things going. Further, women are human and humans tend to downplay the risks of things like this happening...until they do. So we may see some foot-voting by people denied abortions, IVF, birth control, or investigated after a miscarriage.
It's also worth nothing that, in general, the states where the most draconian anti-choice laws are passed are also more likely to have invested their legal system in other culture war laws going after racial and sexual minorities or advancing religious rights over those of the non-religious. Laws forcing women to give birth against their will is just one straw, that straw usually is packed in a bale.
Or, the pro choice states may just happen to be the ones with Soros supported DAs, who allow violent criminals back out on the street quickly, if not the same day. Where street crime is significantly on the rise, along with car jacking, forcible rapes, armed robberies, flash mobs, and the like. Whereas in a lot of prolife states, the car jackets, rapists, etc are more likely to end up in jail, or shot. If you were a highly intelligent woman, would you more likely pick the state with the easiest access to abortion (despite low likelihood for ever needing one, due to intelligent life choices) or one where it is safer, where your chances of being mugged, car jacked, or raped is significantly lower?
Actually, no, educational attainment is not at all well correlated with intelligence. That's why I specifically used the "intelligence" metric instead.
Educational attainment is highly correlated with lifetime earnings. I agree it's not the same thing as intelligence, but generally you're worried about a "brain drain" because you're worried about more skilled and productive people leaving, and education is a reasonable proxy for that.
Whatever, Rossami. As an adult I have lived long years in a deep red state with a largely rural population (Idaho), followed by long years in a blue state, mostly urbanized (Massachusetts). My observation is that the dumber class of people are notably smarter in Idaho than in Massachusetts. The smarter class of people are notably smarter in Massachusetts.
If you want efficient service from a fast food joint, Massachusetts is the last place to look for it. By contrast, I am almost always surprised and pleased by the service and improved food quality I get from fast food places when traveling through small towns in red states.
I am not sure what that says about the wisdom of moving to low-cost/low-wage states for economic advantages. I think it suggests problems for wage earners, but opportunities for entrepreneurs.
I am pretty sure that over the last 30 years you could do much better building a nest egg out of home value appreciation in Massachusetts. Maybe that is changing now in red states, but if it is it will reduce comparative economic advantages for red states as it does so.
Except for two, gigantic categories: Engineers and business.
Many exceptionally intelligent people go into business and engineering, which are extremely right-leaning fields, and these give strong career opportunities with only a bachelor's.
The issue is one of ideals. The professor in his lab and classroom is a liberal ideal. The engineer in his plant or the accountant at his desk is a conservative ideal. Only one of these needs a doctorate. Indeed, a doctoral degree would hinder both of the conservatives as they would need to spend a lot of time and money getting a degree that would give them limited benefit.
The "engineers are Republicans" idea struck me as intuitively incorrect, and at least as far as I can find any data it seems to be factually incorrect as well:
http://verdantlabs.com/politics_of_professions/
If they were too dumb to move before Dobbs, they still are. If they are dumb enough to panic now and move, will actual smart people, who know how to travel across state lines, move in to take advantage of lower cost of living?
Good riddance if it happens.
" Good riddance if it happens. "
I have observed sentiment similar to Bob from Ohio's in the emptying, deteriorating communities drained by bright flight.
When the smart, ambitious, strong-character young people left at high school graduation (for education, opportunity, and modernity that must be pursued elsewhere), those who remained would observe that 'we're better off without them if they think they're so much better than us.'
Decades later, those who remained either (1) can't understand why the town is a concentrating pool of dysfunction and depleted human residue, (2) are too inept to recognize that the town is a can't-keep-up failure, or (3) blame those who departed for the town's largely self-inflicted problems.
Let's tell Somin the unborn babies are migrants from their mom's wombs, he'll be picketing Planned Parenthood in a minute.
Only for the non-White ones since he's part of the Great Replacement crowd.
Heh.
You also are conflating all red state. Florida right now permits abortion up to 15 weeks. That's different from Texas, where my understanding is it is more or less illegal from the get-go. For someone with a "brain" to "drain," they presumably would understand the difference, and might tolerate the former but not the latter.
Florida is a heavily gerrymandered state completely owned by Desantis and the GOP. There is nothing preventing them from voting in stronger restrictions on abortion if Desantis believes it will improve his chances in the 2024 primaries.
The question posed by article is about states with abortion restrictions, not red states.
JB, it's not a binary. 15 weeks abortion is not much different than the 20-week standard under Roe. With the Texas heartbeat bill, it's possible that you learn that you are pregnant too late for an abortion, which is why they have the exceptions written into the law.
Who cares about cost of living, taxes, and amenities? Some procedure I'm probably only going to get once or twice in my life even if I'm the most hardcore leftwing woman and I can take a day trip for even if I live in the reddest state is what I worry about all day when it comes to deciding where to live!
Who cares about cost of living, taxes, and amenities?
Three classes will care. First, ordinary wage earners. Second, trained professionals. Third, entrepreneurs. Wise choices based on those factors will vary by class. So will results.
Ordinary wage earners will do well on a day-to-day basis by choosing low-cost-of-living locations. They will only regret those choices if and when it comes time to afford top quality health care or higher education.
Trained professionals will be uniformly better rewarded and better served in high-cost-of-living areas. A preference among that class for those areas is a principle reason the costs are so high.
Entrepreneurs will generally divide. Small-scale entrepreneurs will do better exploiting the low-wage resources and low real estate costs in low-cost-of living areas.
Large-scale entrepreneurs will once again divide. Those whose enterprises depend for success on low wage workers and plenty of them will do better in low cost-of-living areas (duh). Those whose enterprises depend on technical advance and an educated work force have little choice. Mostly, they must locate in more expensive areas, because they employ disproportionately those trained professionals mentioned above.
"principal reason," not, "principle reason" (edit function please)
Um, I think AA was being sarcastic.
Stephen, I think Amos was being sarcastic.
Exactly. This is NOT the issue that's going to prompt people to move. It would at best be one small factor in a host of other factors.
Generally speaking people relocate for economic reasons, not political ones. Presumably if Dobbs makes you decide to move in either direction you are already financially set.
Since the decision we have continued recruiting nationally. We have yet to hear any Dobbs related question even a single time. We've heard a lot about housing costs, commute conditions, school district recommendations, and other lifestyle issues, but nothing about the potential state's position post Dobbs.
I wouldn't apply for a job in a state I wasn't willing to move to. You may be experiencing selection bias.
Anecdotally, I relocated from Florida for a few reasons, but increasingly nasty conservative politics was definitely one of them. (The significant increase in cost of housing relative to wages was another.)
I've been in the recruiting industry since 2004, and have owned my own place since 2008. Trust me, if anyone has their finger on the pulse of people making a move it's someone in the recruiting industry. People definitely weigh lifestyle issues when looking to make a change, but for the most part, you go to where the work is, and economics is ALWAYS the #1 motivator, whether it be higher salary or lower cost of living. We spent a two year period coaxing people to move into the middle of nowhere, Wisconsin, currently working on a job to get electrical engineers to come to very rural North Central PA. We've placed deep Red people into extreme Blue areas and vice versa hundreds of times. In the end, you have to consider your family first.
In the recruiting industry you get not-so-much opportunity to assess the needs of the 90%-or-so of the work force which doesn't get recruited.
Also, I can see why it might be a notable recruiting resource to cultivate capacity to push talent to locations it tends to avoid. Not sure what that idiosyncratic activity equips you to conclude about the relocation trends among workers more generally.
It depends on your model and way of working. A lot of people think recruiters work with people who self identify as wanting a new start, or new location and indeed some do specialize in that. We refer to it as the "Churn and Burn" wing of the industry.
Our specialty has always been in identifying talent that never even considered looking for a new opportunity. I'll not get into how we identify and approach those people, suffice it to say it's a service employers are willing to pay a premium for.
Needless to say it usually takes a pretty generous offer to get someone who wasn't even thinking about taking a new job and moving half way across the country to consider the opportunity.
The reason I point this out is I agree that people who are looking to make a move are not representative of the workforce as a whole. I tend to think we see a more comprehensive cross section due to our methods and focus.
It takes a lot of time and effort to contact someone who is generally content where they are and show them that they can do better.
The sorts of people that get cold-calls from recruiters, who spend time researching a quality list of candidates, will likely decline in a polite, professional manner. How are you able to determine whether the person is uninterested because of politics, weather, or any other perceived issue if they don't offer that information?
You know, my wife is the recruiter, and despite the fact I'm the IT, and all things back office guy, I'm the actual owner of the business. Generally speaking, in more cases than not, she seems to have the gift to engage people in a pretty lengthy conversation and generally retains their number for future conversations for the most part to stay up to date on industry news, trends, and other info, as well as to maintain and build her network. In any given week I'd say 70% of her conversation aren't with the intent of anything even remotely recruiting related. We've had several people who have declined go on to hire us for work they had. A few who have flown in just to meet us in person. One even traveled just to attend our wedding.
We know their names, their spouse's and kids names. In many cases they have become more than just potential candidates or even business sources. Despite the old adage "Never mix business with religion and politics" the subjects often come up and my wife has never been to hold her tongue about any subject. Before this she spent 20 years as a concrete contractor, not in the office, but on the site pouring in the days when women just didn't do that kind of work. She knows the trades, speaks their language, and can probably outdrink and outcuss even the roughest of the field guys. I've seen her enough times with a bourbon in hand make a trucker or longshoreman blush. I'm the desk jockey, but I've learned a lot over the last 16 years.
We know our industry, and we know what motivates them. We've had plenty of people turn us down by saying "You know if I were terminal I'd take a shotgun to Governor X's next town hall I hate him so much, but the pay is just too good" and I'm talking about VP's and CEO's not just redneck laborers, we don't really deal outside of the executive level.
We did an entry level search once as a favor to a client. Never again.
You aren't going to have much of an influence in America. We argue a lot but there's not that much difference even between New York and Texas.
On the other hand, I have heard people say that about Saudi Arabia. I would never move somewhere in the Middle East or someplace where kidnapping insurance is a wise investment.
It's almost like you're repeating the conclusion the post comes to as well...
Perhaps not the best turn of phrase when the pro-abortion states by definition are the ones experiencing actual draining of brains.
Comparing the list of "states ranked by educational attainment" and "states that most severely restrict abortion" is an illuminative, instructive exercise.
There's another Demographic List you could compare those with, but it wouldn't fit your inbred Worldview, "Reverend",
Professor Somin, I'd wager that there is a much bigger brain drain caused by 'blue' state high taxes, high regulation, high cost of living, and high crime; as opposed to legislative abortion restrictions creating a brain drain.
Newsflash: Most people in the real world actually think this way. 🙂
PS: Take a look at U-Haul, Mayflower, Allied, and North American Van Lines data (published publicly); you'll see the current pattern of migration occurring in the US. It is obvious what states are losing people (and why) and which states are gaining people (and why).
Many of my colleagues are negotiating exists from the CA, NY, and WA precisely because of affordability issues. Unless you owned a house prior to the pandemic, rent is now simply unaffordable even on a professional's salary. You will end up paying 50% of your take home pay for a modest one bedroom in a decent area of town. That with all the other inflation driven cost of living increases and people just want to get out. You can work remote, do your job from a low cost state, and reduce your personal expenses/tax burden by at least 30%.
Sure, Jimmy.
Do you know how much a 1 bedroom apartment costs in the LA or San Fran area? Go ahead look it up then look up the median salary for a good profession in the area. Then tell me I am wrong....
Why do you hate the market? Supply and demand amd it looks like demand remains high, you commie!
Are you seriously suggesting that the housing market in the LA or San Francisco area is a free market?!
Commenter_XY — It is way less simple than you suggest. Two comments I added above address briefly some the nuances.
Lathrop, the objective data do not lie = professional moving company data.
Not a lot of nuance needed. 🙂
Anti-abortion jurisdictions worldwide treat women worse, in a dozen different ways. Red states already are worse as to social safety nets, assistance with prenatal and postnatal care, family leave and nondiscrimination. This trend will accelerate with abortion being flatly illegal and will drive away the few brains left (i.e. in the blue cities).
Treat poorly = does not give sexist preferences based upon genitals. Ok......
That must be why peoole have been moving to California for the past twenty years.
From Mexico and points South, sure. California has had a population loss problem for years, the influx of illegal aliens has been hiding it.
Bellmore — What conclusions do you draw from a giant influx of low-wage earners to a high-cost-of-living state? Have you noticed what a common phenomenon that is, both geographically and historically? What do you make of it?
Also, as a thought experiment: Which group do you suppose will as a percentage matter most improve its standard of living by moving? Will it be Californians fleeing high costs, or immigrants seeking higher wages?
The conclusion I draw is that illegal aliens go where they're invited, not where they're shunned. Sure, your cost of living in California is higher, higher wages somewhat compensate for that, but the deciding factor is probably the state actively courting illegal aliens, by offering to hide them from immigration authorities, and provide them with amenities most states reserve for legal residents.
They go where the jobs are, Brett. And often those jobs are in places where they are otherwise “shunned.”
The simple fact is abortion, especially the "pro" side of the spectrum polls as an extremely low priority. It is really only a legacy liberal issue carried over from militant feminists from a bygone era when contraception was not widely available, violated social norms, or was cost prohibitive. Now, that is simply not the case.
The only people who care about this issue are 1) blue haired feminist women's studies professors, 2) the liberal media since it is their manufactured outrage of the day, 3) maybe 20-30% of women from voting age to their late 20's, 4) some guy named Chad who would like women he knocks up to get abortions instead of holding him liable for child support.
Out of these 4 constituencies only really number 3 might care enough to select a geographic area based upon the issue. Even then I don't think it would make the top 3 priorities.
I'm sure the left will con some companies into making some political hay over this but after the next election cycle I think it will die down as a federal issue. Maybe some states will duke it out until they find a politically acceptable equilibrium. But, in 5-10 years no one is going to care about this issue anymore.
Those polls may be different now.
Though your made up cross tabs are as simplistic as you.
You sort of suck at the whole internet commenting thing....
Don't know about a brain drain, but states where abortions are rare will most definitely be more racially diverse. Absent abortion, the population of Black Americans would be 50% larger than it is today. If you truly believe Black Lives Matter, you would not want the wholesale devastation that liberal abortion policies have wreaked on society.
What is more likely to happen is a Republican drain on seats in state houses and in some cases governors offices.
Is there really much meaningful difference between a fetus a minute before birth and an alien a foot from the border? If one looks at things reasonably objectively, free of preconceptions and entanglements?
Professor Somin waxes enthusiastic about the supposed human right to kill the one, but seems to have serious heebie-jeebie hangups about the right to kill the other.
Constitutionally they’re the same. They were the same even under Roe once viability was reached. Government can protect but doesn’t have to. Maybe ideally it should protect, but the world often isn’t ideal, and there’s some wishy-washiness.
Yet Professor Somin regularly gets into a blue-nosed fit of my-way-or-the-highway moral rage every time an alien gets killed, yet is deeply supportive of freedom of choice when it comes to killing fetuses.
Let me know when a fetus can apply for asylum.
Well, that's certainly a new one: to be considered a human being, you must be able to apply for asylum. Can't read nor write? Sorry, you're an unperson. Next!
It's almost like the immigrant is a legal person and the fetus is not.
This is a pretty bigoted article, don't you think? The author is assuming anyone who is from the south or is right of center are dullards. Of course, this is without evidence and history shows otherwise. Redstone arsenal, where the US space program started was in the south and you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting an engineer who was a southerner. The same with X plane program. Major tech companies are moving to the south because of cheaper labor who are just as intelligent as overpaid Californians and North-easterners. Heck, New York and California lost congressmen because so many moved to red states.
Southern engineers would rather stay in the south than be "overpaid" in California?!
Does not compute.
Makes sense that the South would invest in engineers. How else would it 'rise again' without them????
Contracting with engineering firms in wealthier states that can attract skilled talent.
" Of course, this is without evidence "
That is a demonstrably silly assertion.
(And that ranking does not distinguish a degree earned at a strong liberal-libertarian school from a degree issued by a fourth-tier (or unranked), backwater, conservative-controlled religious school.)
Major tech companies are moving to the south because of cheaper labor who are just as intelligent as overpaid Californians and North-easterners.
Suggests the opposite of what you are trying to prove.
How many of those engineers spoke German as their first language? Or was it just the leaders?
Also, nothing free-market about locating defense facilities in the South. That was a legacy of Southern control of congress which lasted for many decades following the Civil War up through the 1960s.
Also, naming American military installations after American traitors.
Hmm, guess I missed "Fort Fonda"
"Will outlawing baby murder result in brain-drain for anti-baby murder states?" - Ilya Somin, an intellectual
The abortion laws are already causing brain drains. For instance, this case:
https://www.wafb.com/2022/08/15/mother-claims-she-was-denied-an-abortion-despite-babys-condition/
""Either carry the baby to term, or cross state lines to get an abortion", it is breathlessly written.
I cannot begin to imagine how many thousands of times I have crossed a state line, and never once did I give it much of a thought, regardless of the reason for my travels.
A new record for Ilya.
I couldn't get halfway into the first paragraph.
Major premise: 'Highly educated' women value killing babies over all other factors.
Whiskey
Tango
Foxtrot
It seems to rankle conservatives that conservative states and communities tend to be poorly educated, economically shambling, culturally bereft communities with poor infrastructure (hospitals, schools, cultural amenities, etc.).
They don't like to hear about the reasons that precipitate these circumstances, either.
Hmm, didn't realize NY, PA, MD, DE, NJ, MA, CT, ME, NH, VT were "Conservative States & Communities" Jeezo-Beezo "Reverend" just how long have you been incarcerated at https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
??? and I'm even more convinced you did your Undergrad in PA/OH/IN/IL/NC or one of the other confederate states...
Frank
But surprisingly,
"In recent years, abortion has been overwhelmingly concentrated among relatively poor women" (I.E. "Black")
Facts are terrible thangs, especially when they aren't what you want them to be...
Frank
Florida has steadily moved to the right over the last 2-3 decades. It's like Anita Bryant still haunts the place. And while it has nominally lower taxes, the overall cost of living there isn't as different as you might pay in California. I know that goes against conventional, conservative wisdom, but you're welcome to look it up. For starters, wages are lower--a lot lower--for jobs that require college degrees. So sure, taxes and housing are lower on average than California, but it's the ratio of income to expenses that matters not just absolute expenses. Anecdotally, my disposable income went up after moving from Florida to the SF Bay area. My property taxes are insane, but my homeowner's insurance is a small fraction of what I paid in Florida. I was having to find new insurers multiple times a year there and that is still going on with another 7 insurers being downgraded below A rating in the last couple weeks. My P&I were cheap but my T&I doubled it. And, the county matters too. You can get a home cheaper in the beach town of Eureka, CA on average than Sarasota, FL, and only slightly more than Orlando.
Also, it's pretty crummy that "brain" is equated with wealth in the OP. My guess is that teachers with post-grad degrees working in K-12 or even community colleges, where wages are dismal, are not a brain worth considering? These tend to be on the poorer side for folks with college degrees.
Yeah, but you can't legally own an "Assault Weapon" or a (Legal) Machine Gun. And California's top income tax rate of over 10% is alot more than Florida's 0%.
But Cali has In-N-Out (love the In-N-Out) Burger, so there's that...
Florida has What-a-Burger - - - - - - - - -
Umm, yeah, but do they have "Big Kahuna Burger"?? (Even California has only one, and it IS a tasty burger!)
Props on the Pulp Fiction reference.
The first government in Europe to legalize abortion was the Soviet Union in 1920. The "brains" drawn to pro-abortion states will be the same caliber of intellectual giant captivated by the early Soviet Union. One likely group, for example, would be college professors who like to sleep with their students.
Precisely.
It is absurd to (a) initially segregate death by sharp instrument based on the licensure status of the sharp instrument possessor and (b) subsequently attribute some form of "brain drain" to the migration of the sharp instrument possessor or a person hiring him.
First, it does seem appropriate to begin using consistent terminology when discussing human death. For more than a century, it has been well-recognized biological fact that human life begins at conception and that termination of human life subsequent to that moment may occur by natural or inflicted process. Death inflicted by an individual licensed to undertake measures intended to preserve human life is no different than death inflicted by an individual not possessing such a license: death is death.
Second, possessing a license does not necessarily suggest the presence of increased brain power: many licensed healers are quacks and there is no evidence whatsoever that the number of quacks practicing the euphemistically-named "abortion" healing specialty is any less than the number of quacks practicing (for example) the podiatric healing specialty. Any "brain drain" due to limitation on the practice of "abortion" is sheer fantasy!
While euphemisms and esoteric classifications may be comforting, they cannot be allowed to cloud logical argument as they do in the Professor's message.
Only zealots and easily-manipulated people make decisions that way.
So yeah. People who think they’re smart are more easily manipulated, therefore they’re more likely to make such a decision.
"In recent years, abortion has been overwhelmingly concentrated among relatively poor women"
I guess 1973 could be considered "Recent" in a world that's 6,000 years old (maybe 7,000)
But Jeezo-Beezo, can you just say "Black"????
Frank "Plain Speaking, like Hairy T. Truman"
Since leftist either don't have, or choose not to use their brains, I see no issue with the claimed draining. Uh, bye!
I would add to the article the effect on medical care in states with heavy abortion restricts. Ob/Gyns are going to be reluctant to practice in states where they have people looking over their shoulder and second guessing their decisions. In addition, the medicals students are not going to get training they need. Even if a doctor is pro-life they have to accept that they may need to abort a fetus, if that is the only choice to save a mother's life. They need to know the abortion procedure if that happens. Less Ob/Gyns mean young people looking to start families will be looking elsewhere to settle down.
Actually, Ob/Gyns tend to be hostile enough to abortion that the pro-aborts are forever trying to mandate that they learn the procedure, since too few of them will study it voluntarily.
Not a problem here in MA, Bellmore. Maybe just red states?
Stephen I am calling bullshit on this. Here is blurb from wiki that will probably make your head explode:
"The number of abortion clinics in Massachusetts has sharply declined in recent years: 78 in 1982; 64 in 1992; and 14 in 2014.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_Massachusetts
What a crock of fertilizer. Where did you get this baloney? You can educate yourself by starting to read:
Obstetrician–Gynecologists’ Objections to and Willingness to Help Patients Obtain an Abortion, Harris, et al
Obstet Gynecol. 2011 Oct; 118(4): 905–912
Moderation4ever you are so full of shit your eyes are brown.
As has been endlessly posted malpractice insurance often is the single biggest expense for a doctor; and that assumes they are able to buy it. But the cost of malpractice insurance that covers abortions is shockingly more expensive. As much as we might like to think of medical doctors as dedicated to saving lives and stomping out disease they do have to deal with the realities of paying rent and keeping the light on which means running a business and it is simply a non starter to think performing abortions will pay for itself in a business sense. This is why so few doctors of any flavor perform abortions; it is a money loser.
In several states you can count on the fingers of both hands the number of doctors who perform abortions and the vast majority of abortions are performed in places like Planned Parenthood by a visiting doctor who shows up a few days a month and spends the day (or two) performing abortions and then moves on the next Planned Parenthood town. As a rule these doctors have no insurance.
What makes matters worse is that often the woman getting an abortion has had no prenatal care and may suffer from drug abuse. If there are any complications the woman is basically dumped at the closest hospital and tax payers have to foot the bill; not to mention creating ill will in the medical community.
On the other hand what I will describe as women eligible to be classified as having 'brain drain potential' will have a family doctor who will be more than happy to help here secure an abortion. Often times it is by performing what is termed a hysterectomy for insurance purposes but in fact is an abortion.
Just like anything else peeps with money get better medical care than poor people.
The minute States start to ban the marxist crap by corporate departments you will see a flood of engineers, finance, marketing and all professional folks flood to these states. Many of the skilled people I work with in a far-left state took off for Florida or Texas to be treated equally in a company.
In-N-Out Burger is slowly expanding across he country. There are noNone in Berkeley or San Francisco though.
Arizona In-N-Out Burger locations (17)
California In-N-Out Burger locations (113)
Florida In-N-Out Burger locations (1)
Iowa In-N-Out Burger locations (1)
Illinois In-N-Out Burger locations (2)
Missouri In-N-Out Burger locations (1)
Mississippi In-N-Out Burger locations (1)
Nebraska In-N-Out Burger locations (1)
New Jersey In-N-Out Burger locations (1)
New Mexico In-N-Out Burger locations (1)
Nevada In-N-Out Burger locations (8)
New York In-N-Out Burger locations (2)
Ohio In-N-Out Burger locations (1)
Oklahoma In-N-Out Burger locations (1)
Oregon In-N-Out Burger locations (2)
Texas In-N-Out Burger locations (36)
Utah In-N-Out Burger locations (14)
Washington In-N-Out Burger locations (3)
None in New England? Is that good or bad?
Uhh:
https://locations.in-n-out.com/154-San-Francisco
That one may be closed. They refused to abide by city/county COVID restrictions and were sanctioned a few times. I don't go down there because it's too touristy, so I don't know if they're still operating. There's another just over the bridge in Novato, though, and I'm sure there's one not far South on the peninsula, should anyone really want one. Super Duper, a local chain, is far better anyway. There is also a Hamburger Habit just over the border in Daly city.
Neither In-n-Out themselves nor Google Maps thinks it's closed, so I'm reasonably confident it is still open. It was closed by the city during 2021, but now that vaccination checks aren't required in SF it seems to be open for business as normal.
Say what you want, but I've got a Hip Burger by my house, and nobody in any of those states can claim THAT.
It still stuns me that the people who claim to be our elite betters, the most intellectually sophisticated and morally advanced among us, are the very same people who champion the free and elective use of the most barbaric, savage medical procedure that has ever been devised to kill innocent human life. The actual details of the procedures used are so gruesome that they cannot even be described in words. The targets of the procedure are completely innocent and die without even a shred of the equal protection of the law.
If you are one of our elite betters, I have a challenge for you. Choose any problem faced by families today -- anything, no matter how dire, expensive, unjust, or racist -- and now prove to yourself that killing an innocent baby in its mother's womb would be the bestfirst choice of a solution to that problem.
Not even the Neanderthals would hold such a position. It is morally indefensible.
Could a worse headline be created for this article? "Brain drain"? The only brains that are being drained are those of the babies who are being brutally murdered by abortion.
"Brains" have enough money to take a short trip to a blue state.
So we should add that under "economic cost" of these so-called "low tax" states?
"Full women's healthcare provided at your local, major airport."
Maybe health insurance companies should start reimbursing for flights.
It’s no fun if you’re just going to lob them across the plate like that.
Nobody expects to need an abortion, and the people most affected by these laws (minors and poor people) are least able to move. So no.
Approximately zero % of this demographic is planning on getting an abortion for themselves or a child at any point in the next 10 years.
And they could fly to California for an abortion every weekend and still come out way ahead financially.
If you want to know their true priorities, just note how the democratic candidates in Texas have set aside all their most controversial planks in order to focus on enacting a moderate abortion policy.
Oh, wait. No they haven't.
I don’t know where you’re from but in America our human and civil rights do not only exist when we are using them. And maybe your countrymen view rights as strictly transactional, but the majority of Americans support human and civil rights whether they ever need to personally avail themselves of those rights.
Actually, while most Americans hold those beliefs, the sad truth is that very few Americans inconvenience themselves, especially in such an extreme way as moving out of state, over something that does not directly effect them. Many don't even inconvenience themselves over something that DOES directly effect them unless it's pretty severe. While Americans value those rights in theory, in practice they tend to value their comfort and convenience more. So, "Bubba Jones"'s point is well taken. The majority of pro-choice individuals who don't plan on actually getting an abortion themselves (or who wouldn't have any trouble travelling for one) most likely would not relocate over their state's abortion laws. No matter how much noise they made to the contrary. Just like all those people who were gonna move to Canada if Trump got elected.
The 2022 Texas primaries were in May, before Dobbs.
Beto O'Rourke has campaigned on overturning Texas' current abortion law.
Let's acknowledge the absurdity of the false presumption this "brain drain" theory is based upon: That intelligent, highly educated individuals can't be pro-life.
You make it one dimensional. It isn’t. Imagine that you are an intelligent, highly credentialed, professional woman. On the one hand, in a Red State, you might have to fly to a Blue State for an abortion. But you, personally, are unlikely to ever need an abortion, due to personal life decisions. You are careful about when, how, and who you have sex with. You don’t use abortion as contraception. On the flip side, crime is skyrocketing in Blue States due, in part to Soros funded DAs releasing violent criminals back to the streets, often on their own recognizance. Moreover, if a DA is not going to prosecute violent crimes, they are even less likely to prosecute lifestyle crimes - like shitting on the streets, doing drugs openly, panhandling, etc. In many of these jurisdictions, the homeless problem is far worse. Professional salaries can protect you from some of this, but that isn’t really enough money to protect you from much of it. And the cost is to forgo many of the benefits of living in these locations. High end stores are now routinely flash mobbed on Rodeo Drive in LA and on the Magic Mile in Chicago. So, where do you shop now in safety? Or go to restaurants? Times Square appears to be heading to being a No Go zone. So no shows either. So, instead of just looking at the availability of abortion, some bright, credentialed women are probably also weighing their chances of getting, mugged, car jacked, raped, stepping in shit, etc if they were to live in a Red State instead of a Blue state.