The Volokh Conspiracy
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California Enacts Gun Control Law Modeled on Texas' SB 8 Anti-Abortion Law
Both laws seek to evade judicial review by delegating enforcement exclusively to private parties.

Yesterday, California enacted SB 1327, a gun control law deliberately modeled on Texas' SB 8 anti-abortion law. The purpose of both is to evade judicial review by delegating enforcement exclusively to private "bounty hunter" litigants, thereby making it difficult to for people whose rights are targeted to file preenforcement challenges to the law:
The bill, SB 1327, allows Californians to sue those making, selling, transporting or distributing illegal assault weapons or ghost guns for at least $10,000 in damages. Gun dealers who illegally sell firearms to those under the age of 21 could also be liable for the same damages.
The law is modeled after the Texas "heartbeat act," SB 8, which prohibits abortions as early as six weeks into a pregnancy. That law relies on private citizens filing lawsuits to enforce it by placing $10,000 bounties on doctors, providers and others involved in providing abortion care.
Legal experts had predicted that the SB 8 formula could be used beyond abortion. After the U.S. Supreme Court declined to block the abortion law last year, Newsom called on his state's legislature to pass a similar bill around gun safety….
"If Texas is going to use this legal framework to essentially outlaw abortion and harm women, all with the Supreme Court's blessing, California is going to use it to save lives and take AR-15s off our streets," state Sen. Bob Hertzberg, who authored SB 1327, said in a statement.
Further driving home this point, Newsom ran full-page ads in several Texas newspapers Friday touting California's answer to the Texas bill.
Like SB 8, California targets a wide range of people. It doesn't simply authorize lawsuits against buyers and sellers of the weapons in question, but anyone who "within this state may manufacture or cause to be manufactured, distribute, transport, or import into the state, or cause to be distributed, transported, or imported into the state, keep for sale, offer or expose for sale, or give or lend" any of the weapons covered by the law. If, for example, you lend one of these guns to a friend or relative for an hour or two or "cause" someone else to do so, you might be liable. And, as with the Texas law, the liability here starts at $10,000 but could easily grow. This is meant to deter people from taking the risk of being sued in order to try to vindicate their rights in court. Even a small chance of defeat might carry a hefty expected price tag.
The California law is a direct result of the Supreme Court's murky December 2021 ruling blocking some possible pathways to challenge the Texas law, but potentially leaving others open against state officials that might play some role in enforcing it. As I and others have long predicted, if the Texas SB 8 ploy is not definitively repudiated by the Court, it could serve as a model for states seeking to undermine a wide range of constitutional rights, including those valued by conservatives, as well as liberals. California has now done exactly that.
To its credit, the ACLU - which is generally sympathetic to gun control, opposes SB 1327 because of the danger of extending the SB 8 model:
The American Civil Liberties Union California Action opposed the measure precisely because it is modeled after Texas' abortion law, warning that it "would set a dangerous legal precedent" and legitimize models like SB 8.
"The problem with this bill is the same problem as the Texas anti-abortion law it mimics: it creates an end run around the essential function of the courts to ensure that constitutional rights are protected," ACLU California Action said in a letter to the state legislature in May.
Conservative gun rights advocates may comfort themselves with the notion that SB 1327 isn't much of a threat because those threatened by it can feel confident of prevailing in court against "bounty hunter" plaintiffs, thanks to the Supreme Court's recent Bruen decision bolstering Second Amendment rights. Such confidence is misplaced. As my co-bloggers Eugene Volokh and Randy Barnett (both Second Amendment experts and longtime gun rights advocates), have explained, Bruen still permits a wide range of gun regulations and the boundaries of the right it protects are often fuzzy. Whether courts would uphold the restrictions in SB 1327 under Bruen is far from clear. Given the enormous potential costs of losing, gun owners and dealers might well be deterred from trying their luck, just as most abortion providers in Texas were deterred from testing SB 8, even before the Supreme Court abrogated nearly all judicial protection for abortion rights in the Dobbs decision.
What is true for gun rights is true for a wide range of other constitutional rights, including freedom of religion, some aspects of freedom of speech, property rights, and much else. All of these also have fuzzy boundaries that state governments could use SB 8-style laws to attack.
The best solution to this problem is a Supreme Court decision making it clear that at least some state officials involved in enforcing judicial decisions under SB 8-type laws can be sued in preenforcement lawsuits, which can then result in broad injunctions against future enforcement of these laws.
The advice I gave to opponents of SB 8 in March may no longer be of much use in challenging SB 8 itself, in the aftermath of Dobbs (as even a challenge that got around the procedural obstacles would now almost certainly lose on the merits). But it still applies to those seeking to challenge SB 1327:
As I have previously pointed out, [Justice] Gorsuch's reasoning [in the plurality Supreme Court opinion in the 2021 SB 8 ruling] may well permit lawsuits against state officials tasked with enforcing state court judgments, such as sheriffs. Such people are not judges, and therefore not subject to the Supreme Court's precedents limiting injunctions against state court proceedings. There may be other nonjudicial state officials involved in the enforcement of judgments, as well.
Opponents of SB 8 [and now SB 1327] would do well to search out all such potential defendants, and file cases against all of them. At least two of the justices who joined Gorsuch's opinion expressed grave concerns, in oral argument, about the threat SB 8 poses to constitutional rights (Kavanaugh and Barrett). Only one of the "Gorsuch four" needs to switch in order to defeat the SB 8 ploy in a future case. The three liberal justices and Chief Justice John Roberts have already indicated (in their opinions in the December ruling) that they are open to allowing lawsuits against state court clerks.
I am far from infallible when it comes to such predictions. But I think there's a strong likelihood that at least one of the four will indeed switch, if faced with a choice between modestly weakening the abstention and sovereign immunity doctrines underpinning SB 8, and imperiling judicial protection for a wide range of constitutional rights - and in the process significantly weakening the power of judicial review.
Perhaps a case brought against SB 1327 would be a good vehicle to get one of the Gorsuch Four to see the light on this issue!
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I forget; which amendment guarantees the right to an abortion?
That is not the point. The legal trick doesn't case if it is a constitutional right or not ...
California is inviting litigation against criminals who sell guns. I will be following the result.
The criminals of Cali are not deterred by the death penalty. I hope they are deterred by a lawsuit for providing illegal guns.
I'm thinking the law of the jungle will equal things out, I mean, even "Dexter" didn't kill every Cereal Killer he went after.
Right now, Democrat DAs are consistently refusing to enforce gun laws against criminals.
It will be amazingly funny when one of those DAs goes out babbling about "gun control" needed to stop "gun crime", and (s)he gets the following question:
There are current 10 lawsuits going on in this County, against people who sold guns illegally, that you have refused to prosecute.
If "gun laws" are so important, why aren't you enforcing them?
I'm actually looking forward to the opportunity to sue a straw purchaser.
California is inviting litigation against criminals who sell guns. I will be following the result.
This will be used against honest people
The up side, it will force the courts to end the idiocy of "assualt" guns. once and forever.
It is, because lawsuits against a constitutional right are without standing....
The lawsuit still has to go to court and wait for a judge to rule no standing, and that's a dicey bet in California, as witness the idjut who rules bees are fish.
It's not the judge who ruled that bees are fish. It's in the law that was being interpreted - "fish" was defined in a technical way which includes bees, in the "Definitions" section of the law. Specifically it defined "fish" to include “... a wild fish, mollusk, crustacean, invertebrate, amphibian.” So frogs and toads are fish too!
That's false. Fish were not defined in the legislation. Reason recently did a video on the ruling.
Constitutional torts require standing and a cognizable injury.
Editor's Note: We invite comments and request that they be civil and on-topic.
This is completely unacceptable. As Twitter and Facebook should be seized in civil forfeiture, so should Reason if they persist in this thinly veiled, pretextual form of censorship.
"shall not be infringed" is much more stringent than "Congress shall make no law", the fact that the robes in black have allowed it's abrogation at the state level for the past 149 years and at the federal level for the past 88 is largely irrelevant.
Actually, the "legal trick" is ENTIRELY dependent upon whether or not what is targeted is a valid Constitutional Right.
If Dobbs had come back not overturning Roe, then all those 6+ week abortions would be legal, and no one could win a lawsuit about them.
It's only because Roe was, is, and always will be illegitimate, and that people believed that SCOTUS would finally find that way, that SB8 was any threat.
"making, selling, transporting or distributing illegal assault weapons or ghost guns".
If SCOTUS comes back with "they're all legal", then the law doesn't enable anything.
OTOH, as some others here have pointed out, this may let private citizens sue people that the Democrat DAs are refusing to prosecute for their actual gun crimes.
So the major effect of this law might be to provide continual embarrassment for gun controllers, as Republicans use it to establish, in court, that the Democrats who are demanding more gun laws, aren't enforcing the gun laws they already have.
IOW, this is entry 1,456,323 in "Democrats are stupid"
RE: "If SCOTUS comes back with "they're all legal", then the law doesn't enable anything."
But SCOTUS never "comes back with 'they're all legal'". SCOTUS doesn't wipe bans off the books. It only prohibits governments from enforcing the bans, by issuing injunctions against enforcement. For instance, Roe v. Wade didn't legalize abortion in states where it was banned; Roe v. Wade only said that governments are not allowed to enforce the bans.
Which amendment guarantees the right of unregulated random crazies to carry guns in public?
The second? Nope. It says "A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
Maybe we need a 28th amendment to clarify the 2nd.
What right gave you the idea that your ideas are legally allowed to be shared with others?
By your standards: you're a "random crazy" and therefore don't have the right to speak.
Feel free to pursue an amendment. Writing a good one -- that will win support from people who don't already agree with you -- is harder than it seems at first. Getting it passed is much harder.
The same one that guarantees the right to breathe or breed.
If all else fails, perhaps the Second Amendment will.
Why doesn't the logic of Ex Parte Young, allowing, injunctive relief against state officials using state power, soverign immunity notwithstanding, apply to private individuals using state power?
And it has never been the law that you cannot sue a group of people, so just ... sue everyone in Texas. Or California. The barrier to this seems completely made up.
This seems like such a simple problem to resolve imo that I really do not understand what the fuss is about.
My personal view is that these sort of bounty hunter style cases, whether at the federal level (environmental stuff or debt collection now possibly foreclosed by Transunion) or at the state level is ridiculous and needs to stop ... the executive power is vested in the president because we vote for the president. Same ought to be true of governors.
But I'm glad to see liberals have discovered the virtues of having strict standing rules. Now maybe if conservatives would maintain principles and continue to support ... ah who am I kidding.
I agree with you. The problem is the Whole Woman's Health plurality likely doesn't (and Thomas certainly doesn't).
No, you can't "just sue everyone in Texas." There is no provision of law or civil procedure that allows that. (I mean, not in one suit, which is what I assume you mean; you could sue each one individually.) Moreover, the Texas law at least (I haven't read California's) allows anyone, not just Texas residents, to bring a claim under SB8.
I think the theory is you would be able to sue a state official (perhaps the AG) in a pre-enforcement challenge when the state has deputized private citizens who have no concrete injury to enforce a law the state eschews from enforcing itself.
Thomas actually suggested something like this in oral argument, but then backtracked.
I think it is clear that the real part in interest is the state, not the individual plaintiffs, who are acting in qui tam capacity.
One might consider suing all potential plaintiffs as class-action defendants, which is allowed by the federal rules, although it is not very commone. Don't know how this might play out.
I was unaware of Thomas' exchange during oral arguments. Although he didn't mention the argument in his opinion, it seems clear he rejected it because he requires an imminent threat of state action to justify a pre-enforcement challenge. I'm not persuaded by his reasoning.
I did consider a defendant class action, as a theoretical possibility,¹ but I find it difficult to believe that a court would certify a class of all residents of Texas. (And as I mentioned, that wouldn't be enough in Texas because SB8 doesn't require that a plaintiff be a Texas resident.) I suppose if one is desperate, it's worth a try, though. But see this analysis:
https://harvardlawreview.org/2022/03/private-attorneys-general-and-the-defendant-class-action/
¹I've never actually seen one in real life, outside of CivPro.
Law school not being real life. LOL.
It has never applied to private individuals suing under private causes of action.
Well, the cause of action is not based on an actual injury, its transpareny delegating executive power to individuals. Thats what article II standing is based on right?
Now, ar the state level you can do this, there isn't a constitutional problem, but the notion that one can be held accountable but not the other is kinda stupid.
How could that group of defendants properly respond? If you won against one of them, would a totally separate member of that class have the right to raise a separate defense?
It takes a certain kind of person to claim that finding alternatives to abortion, a medical procedure whose only purpose is to end a life, somehow "harms" women. Those would be the same people who claim that pro-lifers don't care about mothers, and then firebomb the very crisis pregnancy offices that pro-lifers have been funding and staffing for 50 years to deliver precisely that care.
"Moloch must be fed" seems to be the real message of these folks.
Yeah, as usual, up is down, and the people who have been "finding alternatives" by assassinating doctors are the loving, caring folks.
Save your Duckspeak for the rubes, troll.
There have been 4 murderous doctors killed in the 49 years since Roe was wrongly decided (NYT Nov 29, 2015)*
Compare that to the millions of unborn babies and the horrors of Gosnell. Forgive if my empathy only goes so far.
*11 people have been killed but you greatly exaggerated doctors. I don’t condone murder in any form, but murder of abortionists rates slightly below murder of gang members on my “give a shit” meter.
Yes, because you're "pro-life."
Any words for the 180+ churches and pregnancy care centers attacks in the past month since Dobbs?
Two words for them: False flags.
When "Pro-life" people aren't targeting and killing medical personnel, or when they are interested in protecting life after it exits the womb, then maybe they could point out hypocrisy in others.
" It takes a certain kind of person to claim that finding alternatives to abortion, a medical procedure whose only purpose is to end a life, somehow "harms" women. "
It also takes a certain kind of person to be an anti-abortion absolutist (or to align politically with anti-abortion absolutists).
Almost always, it is a gullible, poorly educated person, ignorant enough to be superstitious to a point at which that silliness substantially influences thinking. Rattlesnake-jugglers. Tongues-speakers. Strikingly childish and stupid. Really fucking stupid.
They also tend to be roundly bigoted. Racists to one degree or another. Immigrant-haters. White nationalists. People who believe it is a good idea to treat gay people like dirt because -- believe it or not -- they actually believe (or claim to believe) a loving man in the sky insists that gay people be treated like dirt. People who pine for (illusory) good old days when women, blacks, and gays knew their place.
Often, they also are half-educated gun nuts. They customarily are found in declining, poorly educated communities -- rural and/or southern, primarily -- afflicted by ignorance, bigotry, economic inadequacy, addiction, superstition, dysfunction, backwardness, and disaffectedness, where they await replacement as society passes them by.
(At this point, a sound editor would advise, "Jesus Christ, just write Republicans and conservatives!')
Carry on, clingers. So far as your betters permit. Until replacement.
More timesome caricatures that spin and hyberbolize about roughly half the country...while dismissing perfectly reasonable and legitimately debatable concerns about a complex ethical issue.
"while dismissing perfectly reasonable and legitimately debatable concerns about a complex ethical issue."
I was responding to this:
" "Moloch must be fed" seems to be the real message of these folks. "
Other than that, great comment, clinger!
"Other than that, great comment, clinger!"
Lumping me in with the right-wing simply exposes your own warped view of the overall political spectrum.
On balance, my comments here have been fairly moderately conservative (which admittedly, at times also includes a tolerance for views that may go further than my own...).
And I endeavor to understand and analyze those on the left, rather than just incessantly disparage them. But folks like you make that quite a challenge, as you never reciprocate. Instead, you simply behave like the mirror image of the commenters around here that you (often rightly) complain about...
Fortunately, there are some civil folks on your side, who represent it better. Sensible pluralists on both sides are what give me hope for a society that is tolerant in *all* directions.
Why do you imply I do not understand right-wingers?
I was raised in a backward and bigoted small town, the only person from my sixth-grade class with a college degree, let alone an advanced degree. (One kid went to a state school on a football scholarship, quit when his knee blew out.)
I left the day of high school graduation and never returned. That is evidence I understand Trump Country -- and the depleted human residue that inhabits our obsolete rural and southern stretches -- more than most conservatives wish to acknowledge.
That sounds tough = I left the day of high school graduation and never returned
Arthur, I had a somewhat similar experience...I left for college and did not return home. I know you had some hard moments, on your own.
I have worked since I was 10. I started contributing to my family's mortgage payments (not entirely voluntarily) when I was 11 or so. I funded my education with scholarships, loans, and always earnings.
I was homeless for a brief period during college (not as bad as it might sound -- slept on the couch in my office -- but I could not afford rent).
I never considered my times particularly hard, at least not after I left. I have just tried to get there from here and to do the right thing.
My hometown? It was a town full of losers; I pulled out of there and won.
I have been remarkably fortunate in many ways -- in part because I got the hell out of there.
(That town has become worse since I left, believe it or not. When I drive through, I feel sorrow for every child I see. It is part of what has motivated me to devote so much time to the Democratic Party and to public affairs.)
I don't doubt that your experience with actual bigotry was formative, and it's indeed quite wrong wherever/whenever it occurs.
But as the saying goes, two wrongs don't make a right...and half the country doesn't deserve to be hated just because of its worst elements.
Just like not all liberals should be treated like the crazies on that side (e.g. woke mob/cancel fanatics).
Pluralism or bust!
What I draw from my experience is this:
I prefer education -- legitimate education, based on reason and the reality-based world -- to ignorance.
I prefer inclusiveness to bigotry.
I prefer science to dogma.
I prefer progress to backwardness.
I prefer reason to superstition.
I prefer modernity to insularity.
I prefer strong, modern, educated, accomplished communities to shambling, poorly educated, parasitic communities.
I prefer our strong research and teaching institutions to schools that suppress science to flatter religious fiction and warp history to protect dogma.
I prefer (in the sense I believe it should be treated better) work to inheritance or indolence.
Reverend Arthur/Jerry Sandusky has gone
10 YEARS, 1 MONTH, 14 DAYS
without buggering any young men,
*as far as we know, https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
Little trouble logging on from https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.asp
Reverend Arthur/Jerry Sandusky has gone
10 YEARS, 1 MONTH, 14 DAYS
without buggering any young men,
*as far as we know, https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
Little trouble logging on from https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.asp
"Reverend"????
Frank
If pro-lifers cared about mothers, they'd be the ones pushing for massive government welfare for the women being forced to carry these fetuses to term. They do not care, and have never cared.
Both the anti-abortion and pro-unregulated gun arguments advocate taking choices away from adults. I choose not to get murdered in the street and I choose to (in a hypothetical world where I was a woman) have an abortion. (Abortion is not life-ending by the way. A fetus, particularly in the early stages is not a life, it's a collection of cells.)
A gun is an instrument of murder. It has no other purpose. Find an "alternative" to that.
How about make sure you can support a baby before you fuck? Mother's been doing this for years.
"A fetus, particularly in the early stages is not a life, it's a collection of cells."
Learn some biology and get a life yourself.
Everyone's a "Collection of Cells" even Somnolent/Infectious Joe, just that he's lost a few ( and didn't have the best "Fastball" even at "Full Strength"
Keep writing, Frank. There may still be a few people who don't realize that you never managed to move beyond grade school.
I know, my curse, the Demographic group you're most attracted to!
Bill301
July.23.2022 at 3:51 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
"If pro-lifers cared about mothers, they'd be the ones pushing for massive government welfare for the women being forced to carry these fetuses to term. They do not care, and have never cared."
Every state already has that provision - its called child support
You can now cut out the bogus BS argument
1) There is no such thing as "pro-life." It's accurately referred to as "pro-(my)-choice."
2) "Pregnancy crisis centers" do not exist to "help mothers." They exist to talk people out of having abortions and instead having children they otherwise cannot afford or do not want.
You’re so fuckin’ full of shit. There are lots of people that are pro life. Hundreds of millions of them.
If you’re going to demonize people that you don’t agree with, at least try to do it in some minimally intelligent way. Because what you just posted is the dumbest post of the month.
They're so "pro-life" that the moment the baby is delivered they don't give two fucks about the outcome anymore.
Unwanted children, un-affordable children, children born into a broken home...too fucking bad! As long as the woman was forced to have the child, the 'pro-life' crowd got everything they wanted.
There are in fact, hundreds of millions of assholes who just want women to be forced to have children and make sandwiches in the kitchens.
“It’s an evil corruption of the law, except when WE do it.”
More like, goose, meet gander.
Same to you Teefah. Just another run of the mill politically addled hypocrite.
As opposed to … who exactly? You? Lmfao.
Look, I don’t support this law. I’m not even against gun ownership. But I’m certainly in favor of people reaping what they sow, and this was a predictable - indeed inevitable - outcome of SB 8.
I’m in Texas and thought that SB 8 was bullshit from the start. Said so on here. So yeah, me. I’m Team Pox on Both Their Houses.
Both parties are bad on civil rights and getting worse - to the cheers of their partisans.
I think we’re in agreement on the merits - both are bad laws.
But the fact remains, with SB 8, right wingers used hyper-technical jurisdictional shenanigans to attack a right they do not like, and their Supreme Court blessed their actions. There nothing wrong with them being made to taste their own medicine with respect to a right they do like. In fact, not doing so will only embolden them to do the same thing on other issues.
Yes they did. Technically the SC didn’t bless it, they just declined to temporarily stop it. Regardless, “right wingers” won’t be feeling the sting of the California bill. Won’t affect a single person in Texas. People in California - right, left, or don’t care - who want to exercise their 2A rights will suffer.
So the innocent suffer from the lack of integrity of our political leaders. Again.
They know it's a corruption of the law and they're challenging the political Supreme Court to do something about it.
Pro-choice folks challenged the Mississippi abortion law in the Supreme Court. How'd that work out?
Jerry B.
July.24.2022 at 8:30 am
Flag Comment Mute User
Pro-choice folks challenged the Mississippi abortion law in the Supreme Court. How'd that work out?
correction - "Pro Abortion folks challenged the Mississippi law..."
A complete misunderstanding of the point.
One of these two things will be true:
a) The Supreme Court finally does what it should have done and "aborts" this attempt and circumventing the judiciary goaded on by the fact the majority is pro-guns.
b) The Supreme Court lets it stand and California gets to keep its new gun safety law while Texas keeps its anti-abortion law.
For California, it's a win no matter which way it goes, but the expectation is that the USSC was willing to let it slide for the laws they like and overturn it for one they don't.
A class action lawsuit seeking declaratory judgment against the defendant class of people who would sue under SB 1327. Have a temporary/preliminary injunction issued that lasts only until someone in the class comes forward to defend the law. Then settle that question in the class action context as to if it should be preliminarily enjoined. They can appeal any resulting decision. That resolves the legal issues in a correct way with no involvement by the state.
Would a similar suit challenging libel and slander laws also succeed?
It's already illegal to own or sell an "assault rifle" in California. You can already sue anyone for any reason, including a owning a gun. Frivolous lawsuits are filed and dismissed all the time.
SB 8 had teeth because it was unknown whether abortion would be considered a constitutional right after Dobbs. Had the court reaffirmed Casey and Roe in Dobbs, SB 8 lawsuits would have amounted to nothing. Lawsuits against "assault rifle" bans are already making their way through the courts. There's no need for a new challenge to the law to exist.
Exactly.
Every act for which SB 1327 provides a private right of action is already a crime in California. Most are felonies. And California doesn’t shy from prosecuting violations of its gun control statutes.
Maybe these laws will eventually be overturned post-Bruen. But for now, they’ve all been upheld by the Ninth Circuit.
Maybe Ilya Somin and everyone else hyperventilating about SB 1327 are simply ignorant about California’s extreme anti-gun laws. More likely, their ideological commitment to unfettered abortion access drives them to disingenuous hackery. Or they really believe that a private lawsuit is worse than ten years in San Quentin.
It may well be that, by enacting SB 1327, they'll just provide their own unconstitutional gun laws expedited Supreme court review with a particularly unfavorable test case.
Why is California following Texas' lead if they think what Texas did is wrong? It seems the most charitable explanation is California's governor was being disingenuous when he criticized Texas' action w/r/t abortion.
"Why is California following Texas' lead if they think what Texas did is wrong?"
Welcome to politics. You must be new here.
In my view, the best and most honest candidates tend to be the democrats in red states or Republicans in blue, if you can survive that tremendous anti-selection that occurs when most people are against you it tends to work out good. I've found I generally vote that way.
Like yeah I would love it if Charlie Baker grew a pair and stood up to more of the nonsense in Massachusetts but honestly, he has been fine and the constraints are good to an extent.
One party rule in California and Texas both mean that not just ideological extremes tend to prevail but also bad and hypocritical candidates do not effectively get filtered out.
" Why is California following Texas' lead if they think what Texas did is wrong? "
One reasonable reason: No free swings.
Especially not when dealing with low-quality, disaffected, unreasonable people.
Reverend Arthur/Jerry Sandusky has gone
10 YEARS, 1 MONTH, 14 DAYS
without buggering any young men,
*as far as we know, https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
Little trouble logging on from https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.asp
Have your ever tried to read a book other than one where you use crayons to color in pictures? It must make you sad to have no friends and to be forced to sit in your mother's basement playing with yourself.
Sounds like you have some bad memories....my Mom always made me play outside.
These are our elites. Our "betters". Referring to both Texas and California.
Swearing an oath to uphold and defend the constitution then using every trick they can to work around it. Why do we put up with this shit, even if sometimes it's a "win" for your side. If they'll dodge the constitution to screw the other guy, they'll dodge it to screw you just as easily.
Adopting the other side's worldview and using it is a consistent worldview. It's just morally vacuous.
I guess you haven’t heard. There seems to be a difference as to how The Constitution treats gun ownership and abortion.
I know it’s subtle, but it’s there if you study real, real hard.
Guns/abortions....one is specifically listed in the Constitution. Maybe that explains differing treatment...
The 9A ensures such a distinction is explicitly unconstitutional.
Under the 9th amendment, you still have to demonstrate that a putative unenumerated right IS a right. For enumerated rights that enumeration settles the question.
All the 9th amendment does is establish that lack of enumeration isn't proof something isn't a right. It doesn't turn lack of enumeration itself into such proof.
You seem to be furiously agreeing with what I wrote. damikesc is taking the a distinction as proof. He is wrong.
No, what I did was point out the nature of the distinction, where as you said the distinction was unconstitutional.
Because the right to keep and bear arms is right there in the Constitution, in clear, explicit language, it gets treated differently from the 'right' to an abortion, which appears nowhere, and thus has to be independently established.
In Dobbs the Court pointed out that it could not be independently established.
Dobbs didn’t bother with any of the work there, it just made up a new paradigm and moved on.
It’s a ‘we have the power now and here is how it’s gonna be’ case. It does it’s job but don’t pretend it bolsters any actual argument about how rights work. Alito don’t play that.
Sarcastr0
July.24.2022 at 9:51 am
Flag Comment Mute User
"Dobbs didn’t bother with any of the work there, it just made up a new paradigm and moved on."
As if Roe didnt create a new paradigm!
All dobbs did was return abortion to the democratic process in each state which is where it belongs since it is not and never was a constitutional right - contrary to the holding in Roe & Casey
How does that justify Texas (and California) constructing laws to dodge the constitution. Which is what both of the laws we’re discussing were designed to do.
If you loved what Texas did you now get to choke down what California has done, with the extra pleasure of realizing that Texas’ law never accomplished anything before it was rendered moot while the California law is gonna sit there fucking things up for
a damn long time.
The world is chock full of double edged swords.
No - I wasnt fond of what Texas did - I thought it has numerous problems. Even if held valid (which I did not think it was valid) , I thought it would create lots of crap on both sides
Bevis - I was responding to the claim that Dobbs created a new paradigm. It did not - Dobbs removed a bad paradigm created in 1973 with Roe.
I thought SB8 was a steaming heap, and said as much. That the only thing that wasn't wrong with it was violating a right to an abortion, since their wasn't one.
California's law manages to have all the problems of SB8, violates a real constitutional right, and they invented some new problems just for yucks. Amazing.
Of course, SB8 only kicked in at such time as Roe was overturned, and California is even now actively enforcing laws that clearly contravene Bruen, so there's a difference.
At the time Texas passed their bill the most recent word from the SC was that the right to an abortion was established. Regardless of subsequent events, the obvious intent of Texas was to structure their bill as an attempt to end run around an established right.
If you liked it when Texas did it, you can’t dislike it now. Regardless of which right is affected, states trying to sidestep the constitution is a very bad thing and should not be supported by anyone. Because as you’re seeing now, if it can be fine to people you don’t like it can also be done to people you like. Reap, sow.
"The 9A ensures such a distinction is explicitly unconstitutional."
Sure, government cannot restrict things that are legal but not constitutional rights.
I bet driving cannot be restricted from people...
Traveling is a fundamental right. Not sure what your getting at here.
The SCOTUS blastocystophiles' chickens are coming home to roost. Perhaps the right wing culture warriors should have heeded the proverb, be careful what you ask for.
I don't much like my politics to be Old Testament. If we need to be like this to win, the left won't win much but a feast of ashes.
Yeah, when you’re just trading punches with someone you both end up getting the crap beat out of you.
I know, "Roe" resulted in some 60-70 million fewer Black Peoples, not saying that's a good thang or a bad thang (I'm thinking "Good" if only for Global Warming (60-70 million Black Peoples produce much more CO2 (and noise in Movie Theaters, remember going to Movies?) than 0 Black Peoples.
But hey, in another 50 years I'll be dead, and whats left of our to be Subsidiary of Chy-Na! will be much tougher on the (redacteds) than today...
Today, it's a big deal when an Afro-Amurican gets shot by the Po-Po, in 2072 the Po-Po will round up the Afro-Amuricans who need to be shot and shoot them (like they do with their own Peoples in Chy-Na! now)
Frank.
The words reap and sow come to mind
The words "tu quoque" also come to mind.
I don't like this, and I don't like Newsome's consistent willingness to abuse process for showmanship.
It is the exact same tu quoque logic as so many on here use to rationalize their defense of bad behavior.
This isn't going to teach the right a lesson, and it's not going to do much practically but make a few scapegoats/martyrs. But it does get some headlines!
SB8 was actually modeled after the various lawsuits against gun manufacturers in the 1990's and 2000's.
I was participating in online discussions back then.
You are wrong and also your reflexive blame game is bad.
You see how I called out someone in my own side? You should try it sometime.
You’ll support him for President though.
That depends on the other side, and how he hypothetically campaigns.
You describe precisely why I dislike Newsom (besides his being a buddy-fucker).
If it results in the courts shooting down the legal methodology used here, it will do what the USSC wasn't willing to do in Texas and it could provide a tool to overturn Texas' own version.
Newsome's game here is to set some bait to the courts to (ahem) shoot down Texas' anti-abortion law. I don't think there's any expectation that California's version will survive the various lawsuits it will prompt, possibly including an ACLU lawsuit.
Like I wrote before in articles regarding SB 8, there is no right to a preenforcement challenges.
Preenforcement challenges are unavailable to torts such as libel, slander, and intentional infliction of emotional distress. The fact that intentional infliction of emotional distress is constrained by the First Amendment does not give Westboro Baptist Church standing to sue to declare such laws unconstitutional. Nor does new York Times v. Sullivan means that the new York Times would prevail in a preenforcement challenge against libel laws.
In each of those cases, the plaintiff has a concrete injury. In contrast with SB8 and SB1327, the state has de facto deputized private citizens who have no concrete injury to act on behalf of the state.
…until that changes and such a right is codified.
The Republican SCOTUS will quickly strike this down because they don’t care about consistency. This is the era of Constitutional Calvinball.
SC has not ruled on Texas SB8. They simply refused to allow an injunction against it.
I will also remind you, since you seem to have forgotten, there is a constitutional right to keep and bear arms. Abortion, not so much.
You seem eager to rely on (certain) Supreme Court decisions, reminding me of Josh Blackman.
I will welcome your hypocrisy and whimpering when an enlarged Court sends your stale, ugly right-wing preferences to the rubbish bin in which they belong. Superstitious, bigoted, and backward is no way to go through life. Your betters will school you on that point.
Reverend Arthur/Jerry Sandusky has gone
10 YEARS, 1 MONTH, 14 DAYS
without buggering any young men,
*as far as we know, https://www.cor.pa.gov/Facilities/StatePrisons/Pages/Greene.aspx
That's what made SB8 a terrible test case for striking down the SB8 legislative model. SB1327, as it attacks a real constitutional right, serves as a much better test case.
As well as a great opportunity to put Section 242 of Title 18 into effect again, once we have a DOJ that actually cares.
Keep that in mind if you're thinking of acting under SB1327; Section 242 of Title 18 allows up to 7 years to come after you, even if he's reelected, Biden won't be in charge long enough to shield you.
The interpretation of 2A as protecting an individual right to bear arms is only 14 years old. Abortion was recognized as a protected right for almost 50 years. How do you define real?
More like 230 years at this point. Sure, for a few decades there was a fad among legal scholars who liked gun control to pretend otherwise, but that's all it was. The whole time people generally understood what it meant.
Perhaps you could point me to a SCOTUS decision over that 230 years that found the second amendment to protect an individual right to own a gun. And "the whole time people generally understood what it meant" is a pretty good summation of originalism.
Heller, McDonald, and Bruen are kind of relevant, but don't establish the long history you want.
In Dred Scott, Taney pointed out that, were they citizens, blacks would be entitled to own and carry firearms.
Cruickshank acknowledged an individual right, it merely held that it was only binding against the federal government.
US v Miller only found against Miller because nobody demonstrated to the Court that a sawn off shotgun had military uses. If there had been no individual right, the military nature of the gun wouldn't have been pertinent.
But, seriously, you can go back to founding era sources to confirm that the 2nd amendment guaranteed an individual right. In fact, there is no such thing as a non-individual right, the very notion of 'collective' rights was invented in the 20th century to pretend that you weren't violating a right when you prevented individual people from exercising it.
I've never seen founding era sources that were particularly convincing. I would certainly be interested in seeing them, just from a historical perspective. Since I think originalism is nonsense, I don't particularly care what Madison intended or what the "original public meaning" of the amendment was. I have no problem with reading it now to protect an individual right.
The distinction isn't individual vs. collective rights, but rather protecting individual rights vs. restraining the federal government. I think 2A was doing the latter exclusively. Just my opinion. I think most people back then would have simply assumed their right to own and use a firearm. Amendment 9 stuff.
At the time SB 8 was passed and ruled upon, abortion was a cognizable constitutional right, enforced by federal courts. Now it isn’t, and guns are. But who’s to say what might happen by the time this law is reviewed? A couple of untimely deaths, and maybe guns and abortion are back at constitutional parity again.
As I wrote here at the time, the Justices who allowed SB8 to take effect did so with the full knowledge that Dobbs would soon fulfill its intent and---happy coincidence!---most Texas abortions would be blocked several months earlier than would otherwise be the case.
Then, of course, they could slap down the next SB8-like case that came along because, of course, the entire principle defies logic.
Mission Accomplished!
Like I sad, SB8 was a terrible test case for striking down this sort of law, because it didn't actually impact a real constitutional right. What were they going to do, strike it down as an infringement of a constitutional right in the morning, and strike down the right two hours later?
This California law targets an actual constitutional right, it's a great test case.
From a cold, hard, practical realities standpoint, what exactly did conservatives think would happen when they passed the Texas abortion law?
We can argue all day about hypocrisy and tu quoque and ethics and two wrongs don’t make a right. But it was entirely predictable that this was going to be the result.
Who cares what anyone thought? SB8 was a tool that a guy invented. Tools that work get used. It’s inevitable.
The exact same thing would have happened if Texas had backed off at the end and not passed SB8.
No. The Supreme Court outcome wasn't a given. It was close. Without that opinion on the books, there would be much less reason for CA to do this.
California would have liked the idea and done it anyway. What does California have to lose? A few citizens have to mess with nuisance lawsuits for a few years until it gets squashed and then they get a meaningless slap from the courts. No harm at all for egregious civil rights violations.
Maybe President DeSantis can investigate Newsom for conspiracy against civil rights in 2025.
Is there any means off the table for the right in your eye? Difficulty: no mentioning the left. Your morality should not be contingent.
How do you get bullies to stop? They have to be defeated or otherwise made to decide to stop. Whatever it takes to make Americans safe from being bullied this way, that’s what should be done.
What means are off the table to go after these bullies and make them stop?
Bullies can stop any time.
When bullying happens outside government, the police eventually get involved and lock up the bullies. And if the bullies fight back against the police, the police escalate. Eventually it’s resolved one way or another and innocents are safe.
Taking measures off the table tells the bullying side they are eventually certain to have complete victory. All they need to do is keep escalating until the table is empty and then escalate one more time.
So....killings.
If the liberals don't stop...being liberal, I guess, you're cool with killing them. This is what you are explicitly saying.
Jesus, dude.
You must think leftist aggression is completely unbounded to suggest escalation will continue that far.
Why not just leave innocent people to live their lives in peace instead?
You're the one advocating to up the aggression of your side. When I called you on it, you went all the way to deadly force.
'Be willing to [use state force to] kill or else the other side will know they can eventually win' is not a real-world reaction. Handling a bully by letting him know 'I'll [make the government] kill you if I have to' is like some badly written dime-novel psycho move.
Consider a course that doesn’t lead there then.
Let innocent people live their lives in peace.
"When I called you on it, you went all the way to deadly force."
You do realize that gun control laws are all backed by deadly force, right? Otherwise they'd be ignored.
Read the thread Brett, he’s talking about force against Newsome.
Yeah, I'm just saying, stop pretending you don't want to use lethal force yourself. You just want it subcontracted to the government, but you're perfectly fine with issuing orders at the point of a gun.
That's why I think we should have enormously fewer laws ordering people about: Every law, every damned law, is backed up by the threat of force, and if you don't comply, resist, the government WILL keep escalating until they kill you, if that's what it takes.
Passing laws should be last ditch measure used only where things are mortally important. Because all laws are backed up by the threat of death.
That's why people don't just laugh at the government and go on with whatever they meant to do! Because they could end up killed if they didn't.
But Dems don’t care about the victims of enforcement of their laws. They just tell themselves those people who are hurt or killed are not like us.
You can really clearly see in relation to the Jan 6 trespassing cases. Dems show zero humanity and openly cheer for every cruel injustice.
"force against Newsom"
I don’t anticipate Newsom will escalate to open warfare, no. If someone does, expect people to defend themselves with force and go on counteroffensives though.
Depending on how it goes, I think the next GOP DOJ might want to have a grand jury examine whether Newsom is engaged in a conspiracy against civil rights.
You want him prosecuted, Ben. For passing a law.
That is some serious force.
Quit trying to pretend you weren’t going full authoritarian single party rule.
He should be careful to obey the laws regarding civil rights.
DeSantis is a bully too. Strange guy to pick as your civil rights champion.
He’s the most likely next President, so he’d be the guy in charge of DOJ. But it could be Trump or someone else somehow too.
Doesn’t change the fact that he’s an enemy of civil rights.
You don’t like him. Noted. Everyone has a right to an opinion.
That’s not the topic.
The topic is government bullies. He's government bully #1.
He's your bully so you love him, Ben.
Because state violence is only for the left.
There's a name for people who think like that. Lots of them, actually. None very flattering.
You guys can keep talking about how you don’t like DeSantis (with no specifics, like usual, because the specifics make you sound radical or petty or shallow).
He's not the topic though.
"Is there any means off the table for the right in your eye? Difficulty: no mentioning the left. Your morality should not be contingent."
If a governor is repeatedly violating civil rights...what is your preferred solution?
Read more.
https://reason.com/volokh/2022/07/23/california-enacts-gun-control-law-modeled-on-texas-sb-8-anti-abortion-law/?comments=true#comment-9614166
Sarcastr0 thinks it’s about Sarcastr0. So saying he doesn’t approve solves the problem for Sarcastr0.
When someone replies to me and asks me a question, I do think it's about me, yeah.
Fascism is just a tool that a guy invented.
No, that’s a buzzword.
But the Biden Administration does conspire with communications services companies to censor Americans. That’s something fascists might do.
I mean, it’s a real thing. And my point stands that plenty of evil abusive ideas are just a thing some guy invented.
So?
It will be better if courts or congress solve this workaround. It will probably happen.
Who cares what anyone thought? SB8 was a tool that a guy invented. Tools that work get used. It’s inevitable.
This sounds like you are all policies as inevitable, whether good or bad.
So, like, morality is just an academic question to you?
Were you always like this, or is this a new nihilism for you?
If leftists think a tactic is too heinous, they shouldn’t use it.
There’s an amendment process for the constitution if Newsom wants to change gun rights the honest way.
If leftists think a tactic is too heinous, they shouldn’t use it.
Quit pointing left. Because you have made it clear that to YOU there is no tactic too heinous. So where do you get of asking the left to govern themselves?
The entity you have control over here is yourself. Until you care an iota about what you're putting out there, you don't get to ask others to be the nice ones.
Your approval isn’t requested.
Neither is your posting double-standards and intimating you like authoritarianism, but here we are.
Some radio hosts calked loudly that the first time the Republicans took Congress back over, they should immediately start working to impeach the Democratic president.
The idea was the only way to stop using this against a political opponent was to kick it into high gear.
Hopefully they will at least thoroughly investigate next year.
Impeaching the opposition president is the new normal. Maybe they will decide to be better than the Dems though. Or maybe the investigation will turn up clear evidence of high crimes.
Whatever happens, we can all look forward to Dems pretending they think it’s wrong.
This can keep going. Red States should pass laws allowing similar lawsuits against anyone who engages in any commerce of any sort with plaintiffs in these suits. And keep a list of individuals for businesses to reference so they don’t accidentally become liable.
Perhaps it will lead to long term reforms that make the legal process financially fair to defendants.
What is your endgame here? You really don’t seem to care much about America.
An end to leftist bullying innocent Americans.
What you advocate won’t get there. Surely you see this? Your endlessly escalating conflict does not end with a pure and free society, it ends in destruction.
Unless bullies stop, yeah.
What is Ukraine's endgame?
Conservatives having not every vote go their way is hardly occupation by Russia.
You are not in Total War; you are a dude arguing politics on the Internet who kinda wishes for the meaning of being at war.
Try not to escalate it that far
You are the one who wants to escalate, though.
I don't like this policy, but it is not an escalation; it is a tit for tat.
You're the one escalating, and then demanding the other side deescalate.
A lot of folks might call that bullying.
It’s awesome that you have leftist-friendly opinions on what’s called escalation owns what’s called bullying.
Why does anyone else care what you want to call things?
This is what Texas is doing. You want a response that is an escalation.
This is not subjective.
Surrendering
What is your solution then? Forget left and right. Side A attacks. Side B shouldn't respond? Or B should only respond in ways that most likely will be ineffective? Or does side B get to respond once but that's it. No more for side A? How does that get determined? It seems to me that if one side escalates and the other doesn't then the escalation has been rewarded. Just like a heckler's veto.
This is not a binary, there are lots of things one can do to react to other peoples bad behavior other than do something worse.
More importantly, your moral boundaries should not be contingent on anything external.
Otherwise you are just a bad person looking for an excuse.
Dems like to talk about setting up "moral boundaries" to restrict others' behavior so they can ignore any boundaries themselves and do whatever they want. And then point fingers and laugh at the people they tricked.
I agree with you about morality. What you do doesn't change my moral boundaries.
However at some point if the other side continues escalating in politics your side either adopts similar strategies or is always going to be on the losing end. At some point one side has to change. Hopefully the other side changes for the better. If they don't your side has to change for the worse or accept losing over and over. That doesn't change personal moral boundaries though.
Business and Professions Code 22949.71 "This chapter shall become inoperative upon invalidation of Subchapter H (commencing with Section 171.201) of Chapter 171 of the Texas Health and Safety Code in its entirety by a final decision of the United States Supreme Court or Texas Supreme Court, and is repealed on January 1 of the following year."
The law becomes invalid if subchapter H (Texas' heartbeat law) is invalidated. Subchapter H includes the private right of action. It has a strong severability clause. Texas courts may still rule that the private enforcement section 171.208 is invalid, but it is unlikely the ruling would say "Subchapter H is invalid in its entirety".
It is hard to see how there is a rational basis for this part of the California law. The likely grounds for overturning the heartbeat law are the creation of a new federal right to abortion or a finding that the grant of standing to private parties violates Texas constitutional law. Neither is relevant to whether California can or should allow private enforcement of gun laws.
On severability: "It is the intent of the Legislature that every provision, section, subdivision, sentence, clause, phrase, and word in this chapter, and every application of the provisions in this chapter, are severable from each other. ... The Legislature further declares that it would have enacted this chapter, and each provision, section, subdivision, sentence, clause, phrase, and word, and all constitutional applications of this chapter, irrespective of the fact that any provision, section, subdivision, sentence, clause, phrase, or word, or application of this chapter, were to be declared unconstitutional or to represent an unconstitutional burden."
The legislature has authorized judges to wield the "Frankenveto". Under former Wisconsin constitutional the governor could strike out individual words to produce a law that meant the opposite of the enrolled bill, or something unrelated. For example, by striking out most of the words one could produce the amended law "The legislature ... declares that ... firearms ... are ... legal." Or one could strike out the private enforcement and sovereign immunity sections to allow the state to be sued.
I like the idea of putting SCOTUS to the test of either reaffirming their terrible SB8 decision in a different policy arena or revealing their own hypocrisy.
But I don't think this is going to do it. Unlike abortion restrictions, gun restrictions aren't usually challenged pre-enforcement by industry / activists as far as I'm aware... after all it's not their rights on the line. That was a particular feature of abortion jurisprudence.
Second, it's not clear to me that this targets anything that isn't already illegal. Will this actually change anybody's behavior, like SB8 did?
Third, even if Dobbs had gone the other way, I don't think anyone expected SB8 to survive long-term. This law will succumb even more quickly now that people know what challenges work and what doesn't.
Fourth, SB8 got very lucky, both in its drafting and in its fit within other Texas law. I think it's unlikely that California did as good of a job. I don't really have any reason for this other than they've seemed pretty bumbly I'm general under Newsom.
What terrible SB8 decision was that?
Letting the private bounty system continue to exist.
How are potential lawsuit under this law affected by the PLCAA?
You get outside San Fran Sissy-Co, Berkley, Malibu, California's just Georgia with higher taxes and no fire ants....(love the Immigrants to Georgia who think we have the same ants they have back home) "Assault Weapon Ban" well besides the fact that the
"Banned" weapons aren't really Assault Weapons, doesn't seem like the Ban's observed, at least by the numbers of peoples shot by them, and numbers I've seen shooting them at the ranges (Oh, Mines "Grandfathered")
Also despite the $7/gal gas, not alot of Teslas/Prius's/Bicycles, lots of Humongous SUV's Supercharged Mustangs, Camaros, Porsches,
It'd still be a Repubiclown state if May-he-co hadn't annexed it 20 years ago,
Frank
And in other news, someone tries to assassinate a Republican in New York because of the violence the left has been fomenting. Corporate media coverage? Na.
OK, I'm on your side, but was a pretty weak "Assassination Attempt" ever try to do anything with those ridiculous "Tiger Claws" (Yes, I watched "Kung Fu" in it's orginal run, saw "Enter the Dragon" at the movies, and had a (cheap ass knock off) set of "Nunchaku" (beat myself up more with them than anyone else) and a set of "Tiger Claws" (good old Amurican Brass Knuckles (for "Paper Weight" use only!) much more effective....
Frank
If you punch someone in the neck with a knife it is because you are looking to kill them (whether or not that is the most efficient way to do so doesn't necessarily lower the severity of the attempt).
Imagine if this happened to another New York rep, a dem perhaps, like AOC....What do you think would be the media response?
Michael Bird would murder them of course (where is Officer Bird anyway, almost like he's afraid to show himself in pubic)
A GOP supporter tried to assassinate most of the top Democrats. The story didn't hang around for long. So there's your answer.
It wasn't "tiger claws" in the sense of the traditional martial arts weapon.
It was basically spiked brass knuckles in the shape of a cat face with the ears acting as spikes.
Well, plastic knuckles at least, with a handy keychain.
I saw the video on CNN. Does that qualify as corporate media coverage?
" because of the violence the left has been fomenting. "
The attacker was a drunk, overweight, white, male, delusional, disaffected Zeldin supporter who served in the military, then could not maintain custody of his children.
Does anyone know his screen name at the Volokh Conspiracy? Seems a good bet we'll learn this guy is a bigoted Christian Republican.
The prosecutor who released the guy who supported a Republican candidate is a Republican.
Carry on, clingers.
OK groomer.
I just ran a google news search for "Lee Zeldin". The first page of results are stories about the attack and the response to it from CNN, AP News, the New York Post, the Washington Post, NPR, Fox News, the New York Times, CNN again (different story), and UPI.
What would look differently if the corporate media started covering the incident?
Where are the "breaking news" banners? The endless cries of democrat politicians demanding everyone from the local dog catch up to the president denounce such an assassination attempt? Where are the front page headlines and "alerts" being sent out that seem to occur whenever there is any kind of leftie leaning news? All of this seems to be absent. It is like they only grudging had to write a short article about it, bury it, and then move on.
Remember when a guy showed up to kill a Supreme Court justice for the expressed purpose of hopefully changing the outcome of a case (i.e. actively undermining a political process through violence)? If you forgot about it I wouldn't blame you because it appears most on the left have....
No new goalposts.
Wow, talk about an arms race. *rimshot*
Hey Now!
The words "tu quoque" also come to mind.
Argh. I hate this commenting system.
If I'm following things correctly
1. The substantive prohibitions in this bill were already in place in California;
2. This bill means that violating those prohibitions is not a crime and cannot be subject to any penalty except the $10,000 fine—including any collateral consequences imposed by the government;
3. Someone accused of violating the crime as the defendant in a civil suit can still raise the illegality of the restrictions as a defense; and
4. The state would be unable to intervene to defend the legality of the restrictions in court if someone were accused of a violation.
Am I missing something? Why does Gov. Newell expect gun owners to do anything but quietly celebrate the easing of restrictions on their rights?
1) Yes.
2) "This bill would also state that all statutes regulating or prohibiting firearms shall not be construed to repeal any other statute regulating or prohibiting firearms, in whole or in part, unless the statute specifically states that it is repealing another statute. "
"It is the intent of the Legislature in enacting this chapter to further restrict in this state the manufacture, distribution, transportation, importation, sale, lending, and transfer of assault weapons, .50 BMG rifles, and unserialized firearms, and further restrict the proliferation of firearms to and among those under 21 years of age, by creating new civil law prohibitions and a civil enforcement mechanism, independent of existing law. Nothing in this chapter shall be construed to limit in any way the enforceability of existing laws concerning firearms, including, but not limited to, Part 6 (commencing with Section 16000) of the Penal Code."
So, no.
3) Similar to SB8, this law allows you to go back and sue people for conduct the courts said was constitutionally protected at the time it was engaged in. But I suspect the real application here is the imposition of court costs on defendants who successfully defend themselves, as it prohibits paying court costs to defendants even if they prevail. This, again, follows SB8.
This law also prohibits as a defense that the defendant is engaged in conduct necessary for a third party to exercise their constitutional rights. So, the real target her are gun sellers.
I think there's nothing to celebrate here, except that the Supreme court is, eventually, going to bring down the wrath of God on the whole SB8 model.
I don't feel like checking, but to the extent that the restrictions in this bill duplicate criminal statutes thst remain in effect, then the enactment seems completely pointless.
The whole point of this procedural mechanism is to allow the state to impose regulations that might not fare well in court be making it harder for a court to hear a challenge. If they're leaving criminal prohibitions in place, then gun rights supporters can go ahead and challenge those in exactly the same way they could have before the new law was passed.
Or, the whole point is to give the USSC a version of SB8 that they won't be willing to leave alive.
If the ends justify the means for an anti-abortion law, they won't for an anti-gun law in this court.
Does it make sense from a legal standpoint that if they already knew internally that they were about to overturn Roe and Casey, it would make no sense to do a whole lot about SB8? Whereas Heller and Bruen is still good law? I understand the general objections to structuring enforcement of laws this way, but is that perhaps a distinction between the two that makes sense legally, even if Roe and Casey hadn't been officially overturned yet?
It's time, Professor Volokh. Time to find a way to require at least a sixth grade education before people like Frank can comment here. Or, in the alternative, perhaps you should start a second blog for grade-schoolers like Frank.
6th grade? if you count umm that extra Kindergarten ((German)mom tried to sneak me in a year early) and one for Med School ("Health" reasons) I'm like Eleventy seventh grade, how many do you have?
That's even sadder. You claim all those years of education, yet your writing and analytical skills clearly reveal that you stopped learning in the fifth grade.
Just block him.
That must have cost him a pretty penny.
when has that slimy bastard paid for anything?
I would like to hear more about the changes SB1327 makes to the California's Code of Civil Procedure, which appear to make challenges to the law based on the 2nd amendment very expensive.
A future DeSantis or other GOP administration should make it quick, easy, and inexpensive to become a federally licensed firearms dealer in California so everyone who wants a gun can become a licensed dealer.
So, just a guess, but you're not a federalist.
Only when he agrees with whatever the state is doing.
How so?
Both. His disapproval was widely covered by the news media.
https://www.gov.ca.gov/2021/12/11/governor-newsom-statement-on-supreme-court-decision/
Not a single state would have prevented the abortion.
But hey, great rebuttal to a nonexistent argument. Keep it up!
It amazes me how often ignorance is so proudly displayed.
Which is odd since that 10 yr old was quite able to abort in OH over the incident.
Also odd that if we enforced immigration laws, she would not have been raped at all...
You mean the Ill-legal (At Bushwood) Alien who raped her and's probably been "Caught and Released" or released on no bail?
Every state has a “mother’s life” exception.
You show me otherwise, smart trans.
You’re seriously arguing that *no state* has enacted a ban without an exception for rape? Do you guys even bother to check the facts before spouting off your stupid bullshit?
Which state with a ban on abortion when the pregnancy results from rape has a statute which clearly states that a 10 yo girl's life is endangered by coninuing the pregnancy?
smart trans
WTF?
I read Dobbs and Glucksberg.
The whole health of the mother thing fits here.
You'd think people who could find a right to abortion out of thin air would have a sliver of imagination, but you'd be wrong.
I know it is difficult to not kill babies because they're inconvenient, but arguing to RESTRICT what humans are worthy of life is the stuff Nazis did. Just sayin'.
I'm pretty sure Benq spends the other 50% of his time, when not trolling Volokh, playing video games in his mom's basement. He certainly fits the profile.
Major stories about corruption directly involving a candidate for President IS just like a letter to the editor. Identical, really.
Begging the question to call others Nazis is just trolling, not an actual argument.
Queen almathea
July.23.2022 at 2:28 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
lol, you’re a moron. It’s barbaric to make a 10 year old carry a rapist’s child to term but certainly not necessarily deadly."
You know that did not happen - your continued insistence on something that did not happen shows how dishonest your argument is and how dishonest you are.
Which state has an abortion law which clearly states that an abortion is justified whenever a 10 yo girl gets pregnant? What state abortion law clearly states that such a young girl's pregnancy is such a threat to her health that an abortion would be legal in every such case?
"My " Side?
I'm my "Own" Side, "Bee-Otch" (nothing personal, just love saying "Bee-Otch")
and nobody was happier (OK, maybe the 10 year old) than I (me? myself? you're the Engrish Expert) to see that Spawn of E-ville end up in the Suction Cannister....
Frank " You want Reparations?? No White Abortions for 300 years)
I know, they really should invent some kind of "Birth Control" I don't know, a pill, a shot, something, some kind of Diagram you shove up your snatch, some kind of IED, maybe a Condominium for the Dude, man, if I had an engineering background I could make some $$$$
Hey, you're the one who's for killing Black Babies
Your feelings don't determine constitutional law.
Yeah, too bad the only reason you've got for that feeling is not liking the Constitution we actually have.
The officials in her home state said she didn't have to.
Queen almathea
July.23.2022 at 4:31 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
She had to go to another state, goofball!
No she did have to go to another state , granted she did supposedly go to another state, but again, she did not have to - you already know that - yet continue with your dishonesty.
More mute meat.
That "trans" comment is a natural at this white, male, bigot-embracing blog.
If it were not for the right-wing bigotry, this blog would capsize.
If anyone is ever confused about whether you post in good faith, you misinterpreting a typo for "diaphragm" answers that question.
Queen almathea
July.23.2022 at 5:23 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
“ she did not have to”
Hm, the zygote party folks keep saying this but not pointing to where the law says it (when one tried it was laughably inapplicable).
Queen - its been pointed out to you numerous times - yet you continue to be dishonest -
Are you simply incapable of being honest with the facts -
That's pretty dumb and mean, Joe, to say that the girl should/could have found a doctor in Ohio willing to perform the abortion on the hopes of getting referred to a sympathetic prosecutor willing to exercise discretion.
It'd be safer to bank on a pardon from the governor than on the whims of the AG.
Before you dream about becoming an engineer, please provide us with proof that you finished fifth grade. No comment you've ever written on this blog leads to the conclusion that you're anything but an uneducated, illiterate, inarticulate bully.
If I was "King" (Sorry Queen-ie) no Black Babies would be aborted, with your rules it's as many as Black Uteri can afford the $$$ from the Abortion-man, and I'M the Race-ist?????
all I can say is what my fav-o-rite Afro-Amurican-Midget Emanuel Louis said,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VvibQFYp6k
Frank "Loves Afro-Amuricans, who else is gonna play College Football?"
Plessy v Ferguson used to be "Good law" a point? if you have one?
Why are you asking me? I told you who made the claim. I don't know their state's law.
That's a terrible argument. Exactly what we have come to expect from you.
I clearly attributed the claim, so don't blame me because you were too lazy to look up what they said.
Ohio AG Yost referred to the medical risk exception, which is a pretty easy call for a nine- or ten-year-old girl.
You have one example -- with a significantly pre-term birth. If that says anything about health risks, is that they are significant. That's even beyond all the known physiological reasons that it's risky for a girl that young to go through pregnancy and give birth.
It's sad that you are so attached to a pro-abortion narrative that you're normalizing and trivializing the health risks of pregnancy in ten-year-old girls.
It's not a dodge to point out that the risks of beating a child at that age are well known. You're just making excuses for the abortionist who made a ten-year-old child into a political prop.
*bearing a child at that age. Sigh.
Keep going, Frank! You're definitely in the running for this month's most stupid commentor award.
No. That was a response to another one about Frank's moronic comments, specifically his wish that he had an engineering background.
take a special effort to top you!
Watchu-got against Black Babies???
I mean thats what "Choice" results (has resulted) in, millions and millions (HT C. Sagan) fewer Black Babies,
which results in Millions and Millions fewer ummm, now I'm going to sound Race-ist, you know wat' I be Talkin' bout' Willis!!
I'm the one who wants as many as possible, if only to "redistribute" the wealth of our Hispanic/Asian Overlords....
Frank
C'mon (Man!) It's a Homo-age to the great Mal-aproprist Norm Crosby, "I resemble that remark!" "My Opponent is a Practicing Homo-Sapiens!" Jeez, I must really be getting old (In my defense, I was in grade school when I heard my first Norm Crosby stand up)
and I'm the Un-ed-jew-ma-cated one? you can't even aim you inarticulate responses, please turn in any "Assault Style" Weapons you possess!!
Even the (Very Wrong) "Reverend" Rafael Chaka-Khan-Chaka-Khan-Chaka-Louis-Fara-Khan wanta be Rafael War-lock???, (who's also a Wife Beater, like anyone thought a Black Moose-lum Supremacist wouldn't be?)
Frank
Manchin?! Really?!
I don't think so.
I've got a clever rejoinder, but I'll save it for one of your "better" comebacks, (like that'll ever happen) Now pick my Cotton Be-Otch (Just respecting "Stare Decisis")
That was before Dobbs. You can’t blame him for refusing to practice unilateral disarmament.
Newsome is using this to challenge the Texas law. It's a topic the current right-wing USSC majority would be tempted to rule on, unlike Texas' anti-abortion law, which the Supremes appear willing to live with.
Newsome still disapproves of the mechanism and this is his way to goad the courts into responding.
His reading problems are not my concern.
Incorrect. The history of the 2nd Amendment shows wide acceptance for the ownership & carrying of arms. It wasn't until post civil war racists wanted to prevent freed blacks from gun ownership that serious anti gun legislation began. Modern anti gun legislation could be said to have begin with NY's Sullivan Act which sought to keep guns out of the greasy hands of recent Italian immigrants. The history of gun control is racism.
Technically, for most of our history, the 2nd amendment was read to only apply to the federal government, which had no interest in gun control until the 20th century.
I can absolutely blame him for adopting what he has insisted amounts to a "scheme" and an "end-run around the law".
Nobody thinks Roe was well reasoned except people who liked the outcome, Queen. Even a lot of constitutional scholars who DID like the outcome are willing to admit it wasn't a good decision.
Sure, obviously you "can" read the Constitution that way, if you're absolutely determined to. You could read it as a recipe for lasagna, too, if you were so inclined. Nobody would naturally read the Constitution that way.
OK, Adolf.
She did NOT have to go. A moron writing under the Forbes masthead does not actually negate that reality. An abortion in OH over this incident was available.
You're aware that the fascists tended use the government to suppress their rivals.
You know, like the Democrats today.
No one who argues the reasoning of Roe was fatally flawed thinks a right to abortion exists under any reasoning.
Oh come on Sarcastro, RBG thought Roe was extremely flawed, but if she had been on the court instead of Blackmun then she probably would have been able to craft something more enduring.
She is on record as saying the Roe court should have just struck the Texas law as too extreme without trying to craft its own judicial legislation.
No one who argues the reasoning of Roe was fatally flawed thinks a right to abortion exists under any reasoning.
You are, as always, completely and utterly full of shit.
"Desperate and pathetic, the guy who argued the life of the mother
exception applied has to do something to distract from his barbaric ignorance, so Godwinning is what he’s left with."
Barbaric is killing an innocent life !
Right. For instance, if you look at the original NFA, it was written as a tax law, imposing an outrageously high tax rate, NOT as a ban. Why? Because they understood that they had no authority under the Constitution to ban guns, not even machine guns.
You can go back to Taney's Dred Scott decision, which gave as a reason for denying blacks citizenship that they'd be entitled to own and carry guns wherever they went.
Or Miller, which found that ownership of a sawn off shotgun by a bank robber wasn't constitutionally protected only because nobody gave them judicial notice that it had any military uses. (It was a trial in abstentia, Miller wasn't represented.) If the 2nd amendment hadn't been understood to provide a robust right to own firearms, that question would never have arisen.