The Volokh Conspiracy
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Justice Kagan Throws Down the Gauntlet: We Are Not "All Textualists Now"
In her forceful West Virginia v. EPA dissent, Justice Kagan challenges the majority's commitment to textualism.
Yesterday, in West Virginia v. Environmental Protection Agency, the Supreme Court concluded that the Environmental Protection Agency lacks the power under Section 111 of the Clean Air Act to base greenhouse gas emission limits for power plants based on generation switching. I summarized the ruling here. (Prior posts on the case are linked here.)
Justice Elena Kagan wrote a powerful dissent, challenging the majority's interpretation of the Clean Air Act and its express reliance on the "major questions doctrine" to narrow the scope of EPA's authority.
Justice Kagan's dissent concludes with a forceful challenge to the Court's avowed textualists. From Kagan's opinion:
Some years ago, I remarked that "[w]e're all textualists now." . . . It seems I was wrong. The current Court is textualist only when being so suits it. When that method would frustrate broader goals, special canons like the "major questions doctrine" magically appear as get out-of-text-free cards. Today, one of those broader goals makes itself clear: Prevent agencies from doing important work, even though that is what Congress directed. That anti-administrative-state stance shows up in the majority opinion, and it suffuses the concurrence.
While her analysis is powerful, Justice Kagan does not fully grapple with the portions of the Clean Air Act that undermine her conclusions. Rather, she focuses on the word "system" in "Best system of emission reduction," without really engaging with those portions of the Act that indicate such systems must be adopted on a source-specific basis. To be fair, however, the majority opinion does not really call her on it, resting more heavily on the major questions doctrine than on close and careful statutory analysis. (In this regard, the majority opinion has some parallels with the opinion in NFIB v. OSHA.) Justice Gorsuch's concurrence defends the provenance of the major questions doctrine, but it too fails to square off with Kagan on the statutory text.
Justice Kagan also concludes with a paean to delegation, extolling the reasons Congress delegates and warning against limits on such authority. Her opinion closes:
when it comes to delegations, there are good reasons for Congress (within extremely broad limits) to get to call the shots. Congress knows about how government works in ways courts don't. More specifically, Congress knows what mix of legislative and administrative action conduces to good policy. Courts should be modest.
Today, the Court is not. Section 111, most naturally read, authorizes EPA to develop the Clean Power Plan—in other words, to decide that generation shifting is the "best system of emission reduction" for power plants churning out carbon dioxide. Evaluating systems of emission reduction is what EPA does. And nothing in the rest of the Clean Air Act, or any other statute, suggests that Congress did not mean for the delegation it wrote to go as far as the text says. In rewriting that text, the Court substitutes its own ideas about delegations for Congress's. And that means the Court substitutes its own ideas about policymaking for Congress's. The Court will not allow the Clean Air Act to work as Congress instructed. The Court, rather than Congress, will decide how much regulation is too much.
The subject matter of the regulation here makes the Court's intervention all the more troubling. Whatever else this Court may know about, it does not have a clue about how to address climate change. And let's say the obvious: The stakes here are high. Yet the Court today prevents congressionally authorized agency action to curb power plants' carbon dioxide emissions. The Court appoints itself—instead of Congress or the expert agency—the decisionmaker on climate policy. I cannot think of many things more frightening. Respectfully, I dissent.
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Here is the relevant text. Article I Section 1 gives all lawmaking powers to the Congress. Any judicial review, any executive regulation requires approval by Congress or it is void. The alternative is just make believe. If you do not like this reality, enact an Amendment.
Oh, why let a silly old thing like Constitutional Law guide the court's decision making?
Justice Kagan also concludes with a paean to delegation, extolling the reasons Congress delegates and warning against limits on such authority.
Here is a review of the non-delegation doctrine, in laymen's terms, Honey.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nondelegation_doctrine#United_States
Section 7411(d)(1) "...... establishes standards of performance for any existing source for any air pollutant (i) for which air quality criteria have not been issued or which is not included on a list published under section 7408(a) of this title ...."
its a serious torture of scientific definitions to label CO2 an air pollutant.
For God's sake!
Another name for CO2 is "plant food".
Get rid of CO2 and the forests die, and there is no more food crop.
In the Anesthesia biz we constantly monitor (Patients) CO2 levels, it's one of the required "Standard Monitors" lets see, EKG, Pulse Oximeter, Temperature, Oxygen analyzer, and umm, umm, "Oops" (HT R. Perry) just kidding, NIBP (I'd tell you...)
and we have this thing called a "CO2 Absorber" that, umm, "Absorbs CO2, and breaks it down chemically, I'd tell you but...)
and it's just Soda with a twist, Lithium something, don't have to take my recert exam for awhile,
Always wondered why we couldn't just build mountains of the stuff, if CO2s such a problem (it isn't) then realized Jay-Hay already did....
Where was I, oh yeah, in Anesthesia, No CO2 is bad, emmkay?, means you either have no Cardiac Output, or your Endotracheal Tube is an Endo-esophageal Tube ("Tubing the Goose", ask Bill Clintons CRNA mom what happens)
Frank "CO2, Jehovah's natural Inhaled Anesthetic"
"Always wondered why we couldn't just build mountains of the stuff,"
Because that would be bad.
Plant biology is heavily dependent on CO2 in the atmosphere. If atmospheric CO2 drops too low, all plants die, along with everything dependent on plants and/or plant eaters for food.
Some estimates of pre-industrial revolution CO2 levels put us within less than 50PPM of the point of catastrophe due to not enough CO2.
So CO2's good, what I was trying to say (and obviously failing)
This is such an incredibly simple-minded comment, I wonder whether it is pointless to observe that, notwithstanding plants need CO2, animals need 02, and both plants and animals need H20 (and so each is "good"), it is still possible for there to be situations in which there is too much of a good thing.
Like Oxygen?? you are correct Sir!!! Whenever you see one of those "Preemie Reunions" (OK, my wife is a NICU Nurse, so I go to alot of these) you see all these peoples with the Easter Island Heads and Coke Bottle Glasses.
The Glasses are due to the high Oxygen concentrations required to treat RDS (I'd tell you...)
Funny, you never see reunions for Aborted Babies "Class of 73' Let me hear you!!!!!!! (Crickets)"
and again, if you're so fucking worried about the CO2, tell Sleepy to do a Teleconference with the G7 instead of burning thousands of gallons of "Jet A" (diesel, or even more expensive than Gasoline"
Frank "Want to lower CO2? breath faster"
It is necessary to life on the earth. Necessary is a very different thing to good.
jerk off in private please
You remind me of that great environmental scientist, Ronald Reagan, who once declared that “trees cause more pollution through CO2 than any number of coal fired power plants!”
At a later rally someone hung a sign around a tree that said, “Stop me before I kill again!”
Ah yes, the Republican Party (the Party of Stupid).
I can think of a hundred things - elements and chemicals - that are required for life but in excess are toxic or at least cause adverse effects - various metals, drugs that mimic hormones, etc.
Nobody wants to get rid of CO2. The work of thousands of accredited scientists is being ignored by the industry and certain members of Congress. The court has interjected itself in this, as Justice Kagan points out.
No, it's you begging the question.
There are quite a lot of substances that in suffient small quantities do not pollute or contaminate. Thus, our health depends on the intake of a lot of trace elements that in higher doses would kill us. "It is the dosis that makes the poison." The fact that CO2 is a significant part of the air we breathe does not invalidate the fact that if CO2 is concentrated in excess, CO2 pollutes the air dangereously affecting the environmental health of our planet. In that vein, scientifically it IS an air pollutant.
"wrote a powerful dissent"?
"concludes with a forceful challenge"?
"her analysis is powerful"?
Really? It reads just like almost all of her tantrum laden dissent rants.
But then, I am not a Kagan fanboy.
He must have gotten an advance copy from Kagan's spokesperson.
Fiction appears to be a specialty her at Reason.
"her at Reason"
??? Confusus says "Huh?"
Ham hands and no edit button.
"her at Reason" would not be the part anyone who didn't know the intended meaning would ask about. The correct question, and I would suggest it is also the the better vaudeville one, would be:
What is a "specialty her"?
If you are going to make asinine pedantic comments, at least get them right.
+1
Do you think any of the liberal wing of the court are good writers? Because if not, that's a tell.
Not particularly, no. But the difference is, they also don't come of as petulant children who were just told "no".
I always thought the dissents were interesting in that they tend to give more insight into the Justices' legal minds and backgrounds than the prevailing opinions.
Liberal or conservatives, agree or disagree... some justices are excellent at building a framework and roadmap forward for challenging a ruling they don't agree with and write to play the long game. Most can and do not. The quality of the dissents varies as along with the makeup of the court. I don't know that I believe party affiliation has ever been a big factor.
The problem I have, Kagan is different than just not being a "good writer". She has this tendency to rant and rave and act like everyone is an idiot for not agreeing with her. To make matters even worse, they tend to be uncanny valleys of legal theory... on the surface they may look ok, but you very quickly get this unsettling feeling that what your are really looking is is hollow and without any sort of constitutional basis or rational... petulant child.
Kagan makes some pretty cogent arguments.
Dissents can serve purposes other than building a roadmap. I mean, Scalia was all about the 'do all I can to undermine the main opinion' dissent. He was snarky has hell, but I wouldn't call him petulant. And at best his reasoning was just 'formalism uber allies' in those dissents. (I did love reading them though)
That being said, it seems clear to me you did honestly engage with the dissent, so I withdraw any suggestion you're blindly condemning that with which you disagree - it seems more like Kagan's style comes across badly to you in a way it doesn't for others [on both sides of the aisle], which is fair enough. (I don't love Sotomayor's dissents myself)
She needs a "cool" nickname like Ruth since she is going to write many more "forceful" dissents, God willing.
Ragin' Kagan?
Not bad.
"Klingin Kagan" (HT "Reverend Jerry Sandusky"
she is "Klinging" to the Liberal Majority she thought she'd have when POTUS Hilary Rodman was innocculated.
If the Court knows nothing about climate change (previously called global warming), how can Justice Kagan assert in an opinion that the stakes are high?
Maybe the new justice knows something, or is this a biology question?
It's fine to say that the stakes are high when the stakes are potentially high. The idea of a stake is that it's a chance, so, there's a chance that something really bad happens... whether there's a chance, or a chance of chance, really doesn't matter. Just ask an insurance adjuster.
Or a meteorologist. I've never understood if a 40% chance of rain means that we're 100% sure there's a 2-in-5 chance of it actually raining, or if we're 40% sure that it's definitely going to rain, or something else. Signs point to something else, like, we're 80% sure that it's going to rain 50% of the time... but who knows or cares. Same with this. Even if we're only 20% sure that there's a 10% chance of the earth exploding, the stakes are high.
Must not be that high, if Sleepy can jet casually to Europe and Back, some 8200 mile round trip, (won't count the support aircraft) Fuel Burn of a 747 about .13 Mile(Nautical, that is, I'd tell you) per Gallon, or, hommina hommina hommina, 8200/.13, carry the 2, angle of the dangle, hypotenuse, Cotangent,
some 63,076 gallons, depending on winds, pilots interest in saving fuel (with "Dr." Jill along, pilot probably doesn't have a choice)
Jeez, I think they're raising the price of Gas as I type this....
Frank "Europe's Overrated"
The EPA said so, and that's fully consistent with her argument.
SKofNJ — If you are about to bet $1,000,000 on a coin flip, you do not have to know anything about how coin flips work to understand the stakes are high.
Or you know something about the coin....
Frank "Heads!!! I mean Heads!!!!"
Will Kagan, Sotomyor and PBJ be establishing a SC liberal female caucus?
Probably not, KBJ wouldn't know if they are females.
That would be weird not to let Barrett join.
KBJ wouldn't be able to testify to that without looking at AB's (Redacted)
Frank
female
Why so ferengi?
Really laying it on thick to praise the way that Kagan wiped her backside with the constitutional separation of powers....
Kagan: "The Court, rather than Congress, will decide how much regulation is too much."
Um, no. The major questions doctrine is just literally saying that Congress must decide.
"Congress"?? those Mongoloids? have you watched a minute of the "January 6th" Hearings???, Uncle Remus Bennie (where are the "Jets"? ) Thompson, Gloria Stivik-Chaney, Zoe (Couldn't hold Nils Jockstap) Zofgren, Jamie ("Vegetarian (only eats meat when nobodies watching, still got Colon Cancer) Rasking, and "Pencil Neck" Adam Schitt,
Still waiting for the Cross Examination of Cassidy Headlights, you know, to point out, there's this little legal concept called
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8lDYrvTILc
"Hearsay"
"testimony from an under-oath witness who is reciting an out-of-court statement, the content of which is being offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted. In most courts, hearsay evidence is inadmissible (the "hearsay evidence rule") unless an exception to the hearsay rule applies."
Frank "Congress, can't live with them, can't live without them without 435 suicides"
No - the major questions doctrine says even if Congress already decided, it needs to decide harder sometimes.
Maybe that's a good idea, but don't pretend that's textualism.
I suppose you could say it means that if it is applied consistently and in good faith. But it won't be.
Your argument is essentially "Congress said something, ergo, they said everything."
The court said, "No... if Congress said something... they said ONLY what they said and we can't just act as though they said more."
Congress used sweeping language - something Mass v. EPA picked up on. By the pure text, it's hard to argue the statue doesn't allow EPA to do this once CO2 is a pollutant, which is a decided issue.
But the major questions doctrine says at some point sweeping language isn't enough. At what point? That's for the Court to decide, and they decided it applied here.
Which, as I said, may be the correct doctrine, but then the Court called it textualism, and that would set me off as well.
This decision limited that reasoning to "major questions." The courts get to decide what a "major question" is and so Kagan has a point.
Yeah, I find this a little disturbing too. I don't understand why we need the Major Questions doctrine, especially in a case like this. I wish Gorsuch had written the opinion and used some of his Cakeshop ideas about generality and scope. (He totally confused himself in Cakeshop, but it's the right idea.)
Laws can't be read to apply at every level of generality. Anything can be read absurdly narrowly or absurdly broadly. Take "all men are created equal". Read too narrowly, it asserts that all men are literally the same person. Too broadly, it means nothing at all, since "created" could just be taken as "the point before any differentiation," making it tautological. Laws should be interpreted to apply at a specific level of generality, the one that makes the most sense (from a textual, not policy, perspective). We know what "all men are created equal" is intended to mean.
You don't need to invoke the Major Questions doctrine to determine that "the best system of emission reduction" doesn't mean "the best overall scheme that effects emission reduction." It could be read that way, but it's clearly too general. Just like it also doesn't narrowly mean literally the best-manufactured, most effective physical machine ever built to do emission reduction, which would limit the US to a single power plant employing that one machine.
It's an odd quirk of language that people are able to determine the intended level of generality as naturally as we are. People don't say "I acted upon the appliance to effect a relationship between a secretion and my set of denatured carbohydrates," they say "I got some milk from the fridge for my cornflakes."
This should just be a workaday statutory interpretation case, no special doctrines needed. I suspect that's true of all Major Questions cases, except the ones where the doctrine is being used solely to implement the justice's preferred policy option.
"The Court appoints itself—instead of Congress or the expert agency—the decisionmaker on climate policy. I cannot think of many things more frightening. Respectfully, I dissent."
The Court did no such thing.
Kagan's real problem is that the Court did not declare EPA's "experts" philosopher-kings and turn all governing over to them.
After three years of Cov-idiocy, we all should know by now that no "expert" can be trusted with that kind of power. Especially during an "emergency" if the "experts" get to decree that the emergency exists.
She would never reach that conclusion if a Republican administration was in office though.
Congress declared the EPA experts, chucklehead.
Just because you disagree with them and think you're the *real* expert doesn't change that fact.
Congress, that's Diddling while Rome (allegory for Amurica, do I have to draw you a frigging Diaphragm?) burns?? Lets see shortages of Baby Formula (Not enough Abortions!!) Gasoline (Why the price has tripled) Airline Pilots (Hey, with the "Shutdown" we don't need your valuable skills without enough replacements, See Ya!, year later. "Umm would you come back and fly???"
Oh, and we'll just give $40,000,000,000 (The Entire US Budget in 1949 was only $38,000,000,000...
All of this Shee-ot, and you get Uncle Bennie-Remus" (He calls Judge Thompson "Uncle Tom" I call Uncle Bennie-Remus, "Uncle Bennie-Remus" chairing some popcorn fart (an insult to Popcorn, and Farts)
Funny, all of the talk about "AR-15s " on the Capitol (There were AR-15's but not carried by the Patriots)
Can we see one? Fingerprints?? DNA?? Photos??
Such fucking bullshit, can't wait till the shoe's on the other foot.
Don't think Speaker McCarthy (His name's "McCarthy) is gonna be in a forgiving mood,
Frank "Hmm, Hangman's Noose, does the rabbit go around the tree once? or twice??"
Russia declared Lysenko an expert. How did that work out?
Your deference to government is amusing.
Gorsuch does at least agree that this case announces at least the name (label) of the doctrine. But otherwise he seems to think that the doctrine has been around for decades, or since the beginning if defined as a clear statement rule.
And he also seems to agree that all that it takes in order to "hesitate" about using mere textualism and statutory interpretation, is some determination that the case is extraordinary.
That's a black hole for subjectivity, not much different than opinions about what ice cream or wine is extraordinary. They could guess that a lot of money would be required to implement the changes, but the agency is already constrained in that regard.
She's a political hack? Shocking!!!!!!!
Kagan is a partisan hack. The EPA wanted to overstep the Clean Power Act and do whatever they wished. Like a dictatorship. They lost.
Betting she doesn't drive a Prius (and even if she did, where do you think the electricity comes from?)
Well, since you've declared it, it must be so!
OK, don't like giving away my 10-20 (I'd tell you) but I was at EK's house this morning with the millions of other Amuricans protesting her vote on "West Virginia v Environmental Protection Agency" (You know, like the violent protests at Judges Blackmun, Berger, Douglas, Marshall, Stewart, Brennan, (always forget the last one, it must be the "spineless-swing seat" as pretty sure it was Kennedy (The one who didn't leave a young woman to asphyxiate, (Not drown, there's a difference)
were there protest at their homes, after Roe v Wade came out (Don't remember, I was 10)
Frank "I find your lack of faith disturbing"
I mean if the government appointed him an expert you would agree with him for consistency reasons right? Like you stated above.
And yet the Clean Air Act says nothing about climate change.
Climate changes every 3 months, almost like it's related to the tilt of the Earth or something....
The CAA defines "air pollutant" as "any air pollution agent or combination of such agents, including any physical, chemical, biological, radioactive substance or matter which is emitted into or otherwise enters the ambient air...which in [the Administrator's] judgment cause, or contribute to, air pollution which may reasonably be anticipated to endanger public health or welfare
Note that co2 being the cause of global warming based on existing scientific evidence is quite speculative. Of course confirmed to be the true cause by the political driven ideology science.
But based on currently known objective scientific evidence, co2 being the cause / contributor of global warming is speculative .
*the* Cause? Sure.
But *a* cause? If you're still questioning that, you're wrong.
Need to slippery slope this? Humans exhale CO2. What is your limiting factor?
Like when Eric Balls-Smell and Jerry Nads-ler Sharted on National TV (Well CNN/PMS-NBC) )https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=eric+swalwell+fart+live&docid=608012883818601990&mid=89D2825B60D3854DB0A189D2825B60D3854DB0A1&view=detail&FORM=VIRE
https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=jerry+nadler+farts&&view=detail&mid=B8C82EA1026A6C9417D7B8C82EA1026A6C9417D7&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Djerry%2Bnadler%2Bfarts%26FORM%3DHDRSC3
Frank "He who smelt it....."
So, would you support the EPA regulating the Red Cross blood donation centers? Blood aerosols are a dangerous substance, capable of spreading deadly diseases.
That definition, if it is as you quoted, applies to all known matter. Unless one provides some sort of context, or otherwise restricting definitions you might have... accidentally left out.
Ragin' Kagan (I LIKE IT, Mr. Bumble!) says "the Court today prevents congressionally authorized agency action to curb power plants' carbon dioxide emissions." But I thought the question in the case was WHETHER Congress had in fact authorized EPA to limit CO2 emissions to reduce global warming. The majority said that the statute did not clearly say so, and for an issue as important as this, Congress would be expected to speak clearly and unambiguously, so we can't assume that the EPA's action was congressionally authorized. Isn't Ragin' Kagan just ducking the real question, like an ill-prepared 2L in moot court?
Or am I the one who's missing the point?
She is invoking the Moral Authority and Think of the Children doctrine.
Weird, she didn't say that or anything like it.
That was not the question in this case. That question was answered in Massachusetts v. EPA.
If CO2 is a greenhouse gas that the EPA can regulate, can the order the shut down of humans who add it to the atmosphere with every breath?
Umm, it would reduce it on the order of 200ml/minute/person, and did you know unborn humans produce CO2? and exhale it? into the amnionic fluid, and eventually out through mom's lungs. It's why pregnant womens (I'm sorry, un-woke of me, "Birthing Peoples") breathe faster than non preggers Birthing Peoples,
almost like there's a part of the Brainstem that regulates CO2 levels...
Frank
Well the can cut off their electricity and freeze them to death, that will reduce their CO2 emissions once the bodies are fully decayed.
I can't believe I'm replying to this retarded post, but I guess a little science lesson never hurt.
Turns out, people's bodies don't produce carbon. We aren't nuclear-powered. When people exhale CO2, the carbon came from something they ate, i.e. plants or something else that ate plants. Plants get it from the atmosphere. So, exhaling carbon has no net effect on the carbon in the atmosphere. It just goes back into the crops being grown to feed to the animals that you'll eat and then exhale again.
The only net-new carbon is the stuff we're digging up. (You might say it's not new since it hasn't always been buried, and that would be irrelevant.) That, and anything being released by the warming itself (e.g. permafrost)... but we can't do anything about that other than stop the warming.
Hence the focus on fossil fuels and the powerplants that burn them.
Shifting away from science and towards policy, I, personally, feel like we're definitely going to dig up all the fossil fuels no matter what. It's only a matter of time, and from what I can see, fiddling with how long that takes by a few decades doesn't really change much in the end. So I think we would do better to focus on sequestration than conservation.
The problem with the carbon cycle is that it isn’t a perfect cycle, earth’s geological history shows that consistently more carbon is sequestered than is liberated by natural processes. Besides coal and oil and natural gas consisting of lots of sequestered carbon, limestone has even more, entire mountain ranges of it, and it all used to be in the atmosphere. The amount of CO2 in the atmosphere has been reduced by about 90% during the last 150 million years.
It gets sequestered to the point where it can cause a massive extinction event killing most complex life on earth. The lowest levels of CO2 recorded is 180 parts per million during the Quaternary glaciation of the last two million years. Plants need a minimum of 150ppm to survive, and the while the pre-industrial levels of about 280ppm is enough for them to survive, they are thriving at current levels of 400ppm.
Today I bring you the Yellow Muppet Doctrine.
It holds that failure to behave in ways that accord with Leo^2 morality, you're wrong, and you must do as Leo^2 wants.
This was the guiding principle of all Founding Fathers when they thought about agency action, as documented on the back of this beer label Bart found.
Henceforth, the Yellow Muppet shall control.
OK, I'm fucked up and I have no idea what you're talking about....
I'm not at all, and I'm right there with you.
Suspect Snorkie snorked something spectacular.
She clearly misstates the majority opinion here:
"The Court appoints itself—instead of Congress or the expert agency—the decisionmaker on climate policy."
The court said it's totally up to Congress to state it's intention, and the court declined to adopt the Trump administration interpretation.
But I should point out the enormous downside to Kagen's preference of leaving it up to agencies to decide. It ends up in dueling regulations from successive administrations that have no recognized legitimacy, that are APA'd in court each side staving off the others regulations as administrations change. Then Congress will weigh in just far enough that when it is in the opposite party control to cut off funds for administering the disputed regulations.
But if Congress actually passes legislation to settle the matter rather than temporary bureaucratic force majeure.
The whole point of agencies is that they're more agile than Congress, I don't know why you think that's a problem.
Umm, because they're not elected??? the FBI is an "Agency" the SS was an "Agency" the Gestapo was an "Agency", the KGB was (is) an "Agency"
You want to make me tear out the AC on my car and replace it (old news, that was in 1993) if Congress had to approve that shit, we'd still have cheap (and more efficient) Freon instead of the Pussy Juice "Freon" cars have had to use since 1994.
Same with banning "Jewel" (Water Vapor), Yes, they've banned Water Vapor, don't blame me when Jack Booted Thugs break down your doors to steel your Humidifier....
As big a group of imbeciles, preverts, and nee'r do wells (Hunter Biden's a natural) the current Congress is, any Federal Agency is worse (USPS is probably one of the "Better" ones and that's saying something)
Frank
And a despot is even MORE nimble and can just change things on a whim!
I don't know why you think that's a problem.
I mean, you want to attack the existence of the administrative state, go ahead.
But someone needs to be the expert on questions of fact, and between the Court and the agency, I don't think that's a hard decision.
Deferring to the government as the arbiter of fact? No wonder you're a fucking idiot. See lysenko
The point of government experts is to advise the public and our elected officials and we and our representatives can make our choices.
You know I had to grow up in a house that had margarine on the table because government experts said the science was clear and it was healthier than butter.
Never forget.
It’s a problem because they’re more doctrinaire than congress is in the aggregate. An act if congress requires at least a little, sometimes a lot of compromise. Tends to center things at least a little.
Full deference to agency expertise (lol) is a problem because that so called expertise is drenched in the politics of whomever is in charge of the Executive. So we get shitty overdone political dictates that will be reversed 179 degrees as soon as the administration changes. So we swing from extreme to extreme.
Congress delegated this to an expert agency. The compromise came in there.
No one is arguing complete deference - Chevron doesn't say that. Courts just need to look for clear error, which is a high bar.
But you seem to want to go well further - because you don't like the executive, you'd prefer to substitute the judgement of the judiciary. Which seems replacing one villain with expertise with another without expertise.
I also find the regulatory environment is less swingy than you think - the swings get headlines, but government policies are actually quite resolute in most areas, even the environment.
Where you see the swings is in individual adjudications (or rather the choice to bring adjudicatory actions). And that's a rarer thing for the court to get involved in (But see Mass v. EPA)
You keep using the term expert as if government is the arbiter of who an expert is. Lol. Talk about begging the question.
SCOTUS justices -- bunch of bitchy little girls.
Apologies to Sam Axe.
While I appreciate a good Burn Notice and Bruce Campbell ref, this kind of quibbling is what we pay them for.
Better them than me.
Why does anyone care what this Jewish dyke thinks?
Since 1970 everyone has understood that the tiered standards Congress imposed on different vintages of powerplant were "grandfather provisions." That is, older plants were not altogether unregulated, but they would be held to a laxer standard than what applied to new plants. EPA has often been frustrated by the side effects of grandfathering (esp. the tendency to extend the life of the grandfathered plants), and it has used its New Source Review rules to hack away at them. But there was never any question that grandfathering was what Congress intended.
The CPP emissions trading scheme cleverly tried to finesse that grandfathering, by effectively vesting any “rights to emit” in the states, rather than the individual plant owners; and then retiring those rights by imposing on the states a schedule of “generation shifting.” The Kagan dissent tries to reconcile this with the statutory language by arguing that the CAA permits older plants to be subject to even more rigorous standards – i.e., death and replacement with something entirely different – than those that apply to new plants. In other words, “Yes your plant is grandfathered. And we kill grandfathers.” Is there such a thing as Grand Patricide?
The way we know & understand things is subjective & constructed. The oldest parts of our minds are binary by necessity. And that animal understanding is what we call our gut feelings. The understanding & constructions made of words with nuances & complexity sit on top that. Humans have this constant dissonance between these two ways of understanding. You see it in individuals & in humans groups. The animosity & distrust of "experts" is part of this same dynamic.
I have always found myself arguing for the acknowledgement of intangibles. And that very important understanding often defies words & measures because they are ultimately subjective. You are not going to be able to find a formula of words to define what is or is not an abuse of power, with a precise point of balance. Balance is an intangible. It is a judgement. Words simply are not able to do what textual orthodoxy expects them to do. Which is hold objective meaning. Words don't do that even with our best efforts & discipline. Our legal house is made of material that will not support it. And the storm is definitely coming. The straw & sticks will be blown away & the brick sections will take some storm damage. And possible flooding. Trying to avoid value judgements is like trying not to breathe. Adherence to text & original intent, with no leavening of sense & judgement is a recipe for the kind of conflicts we see around us. And the social instability that they produce. There is both letter & spirit of the law. Like light & dark they are mutually arising. There is balance that will be different by situation. You will not find it in words or static constructions. Textual orthodoxy is always dangerous.
I see no mention of the Paris Agreement, which specifically concerns CO2 emission rates and a timetable to curb them, which the US signed (Obama). This treaty was lawfully undone by executive order (Trump ) and then redone by another EA (Biden).
By taking on this issue, The Court is inserting itself into Article 2 section II which delegates power to the executive to negotiate treaties, irrespective of ratification. The result is that the court has enabled a private party to abrogate a treaty - trashing the credibility of any President and the country to negotiate anything in advance of a ratification.
Any legal beagles care to comment?
Queen almathea
July.1.2022 at 6:54 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
"Many here hate the idea of deference to people who are actually educated and experienced in a field.."
Queen - surprisingly you are not aware that the EPA has no expertise - all their scientific are farmed out. In the case of co2/climate science, there remains a legitimate debate contrary to the political driven climate science promoted by agw advocates
Yeah, it's mute time for me. The stupidity has just gone too far.
The Committee? me to, just watch the closed captions,
Frank