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Slippery Slope June: Cost-Lowering Slippery Slopes
[This month, I'm serializing my 2003 Harvard Law Review article, The Mechanisms of the Slippery Slope; in Wednesday's post and yesterday's post, I laid out some examples, definitions, and general observations. Now, I turn to more details on one specific kind of slippery slope mechanism—cost-lowering slippery slopes.]
[1.] An Example.—Let's begin with the slippery slope question mentioned in the Introduction: does it make sense for someone to oppose gun registration (A) because registration might make it more likely that others will eventually enact gun confiscation (B)? A and B are logically distinguishable, but can A nonetheless help lead to B?
Today, when the government doesn't know where the guns are, gun confiscation would require searching all homes, which would be very expensive; relying heavily on informers, which may be unpopular; or accepting a probably low compliance rate, which may make the law not worth its potential costs. And searching all homes would be both financially and politically expensive, since the searches would incense many people, including some of the non-gun-owners who might otherwise support a total gun ban.
But if guns get registered, searching the homes of all registrants who don't promptly surrender their guns would become both financially and politically cheaper, especially if a confiscation law bans just one type of gun, covers only a region where guns are already fairly uncommon, or perhaps covers only a subset of the population (such as public housing residents). Confiscation has eventually followed gun registration in England, New York City, and Australia. While it's impossible to be sure that registration helped cause confiscation in those cases, it seems likely that people's compliance with the registration requirement would make confiscation easier to implement, and therefore more likely to be enacted. And Pete Shields, founder of the group that became Handgun Control, Inc., openly described registration as a preliminary step to prohibition, though he didn't describe exactly how the slippery slope mechanism would operate.
Under some conditions, then, legislative decision A may lower the cost of making legislative decision B work, thus making decision B cost-justified in the decisionmakers' eyes. There's no requirement here that A be seen as a precedent, or that A change anybody's moral or pragmatic attitudes—only that it lower certain costs, in this instance by giving the government information.
[2.] A Diverse Preferences Explanation for Cost-Lowering Slippery Slopes.—The cost-lowering slippery slope is driven by voters' having a particular mix of preferences; a numerical example might help demonstrate this.
Consider a hypothetical proposal to put video cameras on street lamps in order to help deter and solve street crimes. The plan obviously isn't perfect, but it seems promising: smart criminals will be deterred and dumb ones will be caught.
On its own, the plan might not seem that susceptible to police abuse, at least so long as (for instance) the tapes are recycled every day and the cameras aren't linked to face-recognition software. Under those conditions, the cameras might be effective for fighting low-level street crime, but they wouldn't make it that easy for the police to track the government's enemies. People might therefore support installing these cameras (decision A), even if they would oppose implementing face-recognition software or permanently archiving the tapes (decision B). {I take no position here on which of 0 (no cameras), A, and B is substantively better; I am only describing how some people might act to have the best chance of implementing their own preferences.}
But once the legislature implements A and the government invests money in installing thousands of cameras, wiring them to central video recorders or to phone lines, and protecting them from vandals, implementing B becomes much cheaper economically, and thus easier politically. Imagine that, if money were no object, voters would have the following (highly stylized) mix of opinions:
- 20% of the public would oppose even decision A, because they don't want the police videotaping street activity at all;
- 20% of the public would support A but oppose B, because they like videotaping only if tapes are quickly recycled and no face-recognition software is used;
- 60% of the public would support B, because they like police videotaping more generally, and would certainly support A if they can't get B.
And imagine that 30% of the second and third groups would nonetheless oppose decisions A and B because they cost too much. The mix of preferences would thus be:
Group # | Preference | Would support in principle and given the cost (e.g., if there are no cameras yet, and we're in position 0 | Would support in principle, if there were no extra cost (e.g., if the cameras are already up, because A was already implemented) |
I | 0: no cameras | 20% | 20% |
II | A: cameras, no face-recognition and no archiving | 14% | 20% |
III | A: cameras, with face-recognition and archiving | 42% | 60% |
If the people in group II focus only on the vote on A, members of that group who don't mind the financial cost will vote "yes"; and with group II's 20% x 70% + group III's 60% x 70% = 56% of the vote, A would be enacted. {I assume here that 56% support is enough for the proposal to win—not certain, but likely.} But a few years later, when someone suggests a move to B at no extra cost, that proposal would also be enacted, since 60% of the public would now support it, given that there's no more fiscal objection.
Thus, the group II people must make a tough choice: do they want A so much that they're willing to accept the risk of B as well, or are they so concerned about B that they're willing to reject A? The one item that is off the table is the one group II most prefers, which is A alone with no danger of B. The cost-lowering slippery slope has eliminated that possibility, at least unless there's a constitutional barrier to B or unless the government intentionally makes B expensive to implement, for instance by buying cameras that are incompatible with the technology needed for B.
This is, of course, just a hypothetical; obviously, if people's preferences break down differently, the slippery slope might not take place. The point here is simply that this sort of slippery slope may happen under plausible conditions—and that people who support A but not B should therefore consider the possibility of slippage.
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"Confiscation has eventually followed gun registration in England, New York City, and Australia."
California, too, with their 'assault weapon' ban; They demanded registration of guns they said they weren't going to ban, and then made a regulatory decision to change their definition of 'assault weapons', and confiscated the registered ones meeting the new definition.
Anyway, I have to point out that the risk is not just that public opinion might change due to the lowered cost, but that the government might just decide, screw public opinion, and present the public with a fait accompli in regards to retaining recordings. Or contrive to retain them covertly.
Brett, please stop pretending that public opinion supports your position. In an earlier thread, I cited four separate polls that showed majority support for banning assault weapons. You can disagree with them if you like, but please honestly admit that your extremist position is the minority position.
And yet, where are you winning elections over it? Should be a sure fire winner for you if those polls were accurate!
The fact is that most people don't care about gun control, and most people who do care are against it. And that is proven in election after election.
Does an opinion really exist if it has zero intensity, if it has no influence at all on your actions, if you don't express it spontaneously? Or is it just an artifact of somebody asking the question, that disappears as soon as the pollster goes away?
Tell you what: Show me polls demonstrating that the people who want 'assault weapons' banned can actually coherently explain what an 'assault weapon' IS, and you might have something. If they can't do that, you might as well ask them if they think Iocane powder ought to be on the controlled substance list.
I don't support confiscation so I'm not part of the "you"; I'm just pointing out what the polls say.
As far as winning elections, gun control actually does well in blue areas; it's our anti-democratic institutions that keep it from passing nationally. We've been over this before. Given our anti-democratic Senate and gerrymandered house seats, public opinion is largely irrelevant to what actually passes. So while I'm on the subject of asking you to stop pretending things that aren't so, please also stop pretending that election results have anything to do with public opinion.
It "does well" because it is poorly understood and because many "blue urban areas" don't need or use firearms or know anyone who does.
Let's take modern sporting rifles, such as the AR-15, which are used for hunting, game control, and target shooting. Unsurprisingly, in NYC there's little need for hunting or game control. Go out to a red area, like Montana, and there's a need for it.
There is an individual right to self defense. Seems a harder lift to argue a fundamental right to 'hunting, game control, and target shooting.'
But your general argument that those who disagree with you are misinformed is a great broad-spectrum way to maintain legitimacy as you're in any ideological minority there is.
Basically, you've reinvented 'false consciousness.' Marx would be proud.
Not sure I'm actually IN the minority here. The polling is all over the place.
Let's take a simple question from the Gallup polls, followed by the followup.
"Next, we'd like to know how you feel about the state of the nation in each of the following areas. For each one, please say whether you are -- very satisfied, somewhat satisfied, somewhat dissatisfied or very dissatisfied. If you don't have enough information about a particular subject to rate it, just say so. How about the nation's laws or policies on guns?"
Then the follow up "(Asked of those dissatisfied with U.S. gun policy) Would you like to see gun laws in this country made more strict, less strict or remain as they are?"
Consistently, since 2022 to 2001, every year, those who are dissatisfied and wanted stricter gun laws are in the minority. Every single year.
The polling is not really all over the place. Though when it comes to rights, it's an error to go ad popularum anyhow.
You are cherry picking your polls, and I think you know it. When asked about specific policies, things are pretty stark.
I stay out of a lot of gun threads because I don't know enough about the mechanics or legal regimes to engage well.
As I said, I think there's an individual right. But to many on here I'm a gun grabber because I think registration is constitutional.
The paranoia, the false use of polling, the delegitimizing every study that indicates any kind of cost...the only crazier policy area is immigration.
Unsurprisingly, in NYC there's little need for hunting or game control. Go out to a red area, like Montana, and there's a need for it.
And yet the gun-besotted think the same rules should apply in both places.
and I'll call those polls bullshit, because there's no hard definition of an assault weapon. When I took Statistics I learned that I can make a poll give a desired result by formatting the questions, where and when I ask the questions and who I poll.
Fine, do you have any polls showing a contrary result?
See the link below. Simple wording changes give more than 10 percentage point differences in how people respond.
Since when are "polls" accurate information?
OK, so you're now changing the subject.
A lot depends on the wording of the question of a so-called "assault weapons ban". Gallup did a study with various wording. And you see anything from a majority to a minority. 61% to 48% approving of such action in 2019 (last date in the study), just depending on the wording. And either way, Brett's position isn't "extreme" if 39% to 52% of the public supports it.
https://news.gallup.com/opinion/polling-matters/268340/analyzing-surveys-banning-assault-weapons.aspx
2. As many people have pointed out "what's an assault weapon?". That in many respects is just designed to be "scary wording" for people who don't really understand firearms, or where the majority of firearms deaths come from (it's not from "assault weapons").
Are you going to define all semi-automatic rifles as "assault weapons"?
Dude, I clicked on your link. Here's what it said:
"Based on new research conducted over the past several months, and on a review of other recently published results, our summary conclusion is that a clear majority of about six in 10 Americans currently support such a ban."
As for defining assault weapons, you're right that it's a sloppy use of language, but I think most people understand it to be large magazines.
Yes, but you didn't read it, and take in all the data. You just posted the conclusions of the author (without drawing your own potential conclusions) from the data.
Look again. Look how very modest wording changes...changing from "ban" to "make illegal" change the view of people.
Let's further up it. Imagine if instead of "assault weapon" the question was "Should the US government ban modern sporting rifles commonly used for hunting and game control"?
It's the same ban. But I bet you drop at least 20% points from your "6 in 10" Americans down to "4 in 10"
Let's go further. What's a "Large magazine"? 10 Bullets? 12? 15? 30?
I read all the way to the end. Numbers differ depending on how the question is asked, fine. No dispute there.
But what is noticeably absent is any wording on any poll that produces a clear majority *opposed* to banning assault weapons. So one poll shows 52% favor banning assault weapons, another shows 58%, another shows 62%. None of them show 40%. So your entire argument is a big "so what?" By any of the polls using any wording, a majority supports banning assault weapons.
The point is that, if the numbers are varying that much over small changes in wording, you're talking about opinions that are neither coherent nor strongly held. The person being polled is taking cues from the wording as to what opinion you're looking for.
Essentially the polling on gun control represents an example of preference falsification; The media are sufficiently hostile to gun ownership that they're able to create the illusion that the general public is hostile to gun ownership. People answering polls then give such answers as a form of protective coloration.
But people don't act on views expressed as a form of protective coloration. Which is why gun control essentially always polls a lot better than it does in elections and referenda.
You can see where the weight of public opinion actually stands by looking at the membership numbers for pro and anti-gun organizations. The NRA alone has more members than the entire population of half the states, over 1% of the entire population of the US. There are individual gun clubs with more members than any gun control organization!
If the majority actually held these views, that wouldn't be the case. The gun control movement would have at least comparable numbers.
The bottom line is that the gun control movement in the US is essentially an astroturf operation kept alive by foundation money and the support of media who have rather different opinions about guns than the general population.
Oh right, it's all the liberal media.
Get back to me when you find a poll that shows a majority opposes banning assault weapons. Surely conservatives know how to do their own polls, right?
Get back to me when a gun control referendum doesn't underperform the polls.
There you are, 4 referenda, in 4 different states, and they did 22% to 35% worse at the voting box than the pollsters thought they would. This isn't a one-off result, it happens over and over and over. There is, routinely, an enormous gap between election outcomes and gun control polling.
If you're only showing 65% support for a gun control measure in the polls, it's DOA come voting day.
This, by the way, is why gun control keeps going down in flames in Congress, despite all these polls. The politicians know damned well the polls are a steaming heap, and gun control isn't really popular. Remember the '94 AWB? Here's what the '96 Democratic platform had to say about it: "we are proud of the courageous Democrats who defied the gun lobby and sacrificed their seats in Congress to make America safer."
They knew quite well that the polls are worthless on this topic, and gun control isn't really popular in most of the country.
It's all a conspiracy.
You can see where the weight of public opinion actually stands by looking at the membership numbers for pro and anti-gun organizations.
This is nonsense. Lots of people are anti-gun but don't belong to any "Anti-gun" organization. What would membership in such an organization provide? A magazine? A membership card?
They knew quite well that the polls are worthless on this topic, and gun control isn't really popular in most of the country.
Only the parts where people live.
"But what is noticeably absent is any wording on any poll that produces a clear majority *opposed* to banning assault weapons."
Umm..
So, if you fully read the cited article, you'll find.
"Are you for or against a law which would make it illegal to manufacture, sell or possess semi-automatic guns known as assault rifles? (N=1,099)"
-Against law: 51%.
I suppose he'd argue that's not a "clear" majority. And that would be fair.
But he never addresses my point about the nearly unique disconnect between gun control polling and voting outcomes. Polls routinely over-predict the vote for gun control measures, by 20-40%, which would be a HUGE discrepancy if they were actually measuring real opinions.
"As for defining assault weapons, you're right that it's a sloppy use of language, but I think most people understand it to be large magazines."
Bullshit. It's the BSR myth perpetuated by the media. BSR Black Scary Rifle.
We had a guy running for State Government come to a shooting club I belong to. He wanted a picture of him with a rifle to use in campaign literature. I offered him my Mini-14 and he visibly recoiled from it. My Mini-14 has a black fiberglass stock and foregrip. The top has a Picatinny Rail mounting system. Another guy offered him a rifle with a wood stock and foregrip an he accepted that. The guy who handed him the rifle with the wood stock said "Let me show you something." He took his rifle and I handed him mine. In five minutes he swapped out the stocks and foregrips on the rifles. Mechanically the rifles were the same, both Mini-14s. The black components on my rifle make it an "assault rifle". I'd like to see a poll taken where there are pictures of different weapons and the person is asked which ones are "assault rifles"?
As far as "large magazines" are concerned, in a shooting the average police officer expends over 10 rounds before hitting his target. Police Officers are supposed to be trained marksmen (don't laugh). How many rounds are you willing to let a "non-trained" civilian have to protect themselves against one or multiple threats, before they have to waste precious seconds reloading?
Remember it has been determined that the Police have no obligation to protect us.
You're just changing the subject again. The subject is what is there public support for. Try to keep up.
How can there sensibly be public support for the public banning something they can't even define?
Like I said, it's like asking if Iocaine powder should be on the controlled substances list. You're asking people their opinions about things they haven't got the slightest clue about, and you think you're getting meaningful results? It's a joke.
It's like the one City Government that wanted to ban Di-hydrogen Monoxide as a hazardous chemical.
"Like I said, it's like asking if Iocaine powder should be on the controlled substances list. "
Or asking if the EPA should ban/control DiHydrogenMonOxide.
"Police Officers are supposed to be trained marksmen (don't laugh)."
Too late.
And Calumet, Colorado.
EV, I don't like your choice of gun registration as an example.
Many cititizens, both left and right, believe that the war against gun rights will be won or lost by the "death by 1000 cuts" method. They may be wrong, but that's what they believe. Therefore, opponents of gun registration may oppose it because of the 1000 cuts argument rather than the slippery slope argument. IMO, that makes the gun registration example a poor choice.
Personally I think the war against gun rights will be lost to so called "common sense" gun laws. Personally I'd support training and education before someone can own a weapon, but, I don't want it to be made a condition of gun ownership. If that were to happen, how long until the training requirements would be made too difficult or too expensive to obtain. Who would certify the instructors? What would stop the anti-gun crowd from suing an instructor who's student commits a crime. Pretty soon you would have no instructors. Just look at what they are doing against gun manufacturers. Glock is being sued by a woman who was shot in NYC. https://www.npr.org/2022/06/01/1102441051/brooklyn-nyc-subway-shooting-glock-lawsuit
Try https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/expert-opinion-tool.html#p2toggle=on&outcome=o2
Even Rand’s "gun experts" who favor more restrictive policies give banning assault weapons a mere 4% potential reduction in firearms homicides, even though they surveyed overwhelming in favor of an AWB. https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/research_reports/RRA200/RRA243-3/RAND_RRA243-3.pdf
"Various polls conducted in 2019 found that between 47 percent and 64 percent of the public favored an assault weapon ban, while between 39 percent and 51 percent opposed such a ban (Barry et al., 2019; Gallup, undated; Santhanam, 2019). "
AWB is DOA - clicking Like on FB/Twitter and Yes on surveys appears to NOT translate to votes - or even signatures on ballot initiatives. Without Bloomberg/Soros laundered money, little money behind that 80%+ mouth…
"Back in 2019, there was an attempt to put a referendum before Florida voters that would have banned the sale of semi-automatic rifles. A group called Ban Assault Weapons Now raised a lot of money on the ballot issue, but as it turns out, most of the cash for the campaign came from just a few deep-pocketed donors.
A baker’s dozen of big-money contributors, including a couple of billionaires, have provided extensive financial support for the effort to get a proposed assault-weapons ban on the Florida election ballot in 2020.
The contributions from the 13 donors who gave $10,000 or more amount to more than half the $1 million raised by the group Ban Assault Weapons Now, a review of campaign finance filings by the South Florida Sun Sentinel found.
Small-dollar donations also have poured into the political committee, often in response to heart-rending fundraising solicitations from family members of people who were killed in the 2018 Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School massacre.
More than 17,000 contributions of less than $100 have come into the group, which goes by the acronym BAWN. The contributes from all those people add up to $273,000 — half the total from the 13 big contributors.
Not a lot of grassroots support there. In fact, the organizers of the ballot initiative couldn’t even get the required number of signatures to get on the 2020 ballot, which is another clear indication that a gun ban isn’t popular with Florida voters. The group tried to convince the state Supreme Court to let them continue gathering signatures for this year’s election, but the court shot down that idea by declaring in an 4-1 decision that the ballot initiative language “affirmatively misleads” voters."
Interesting article, and the example was well constructed. But there appears to be an error in the chart. Shouldn't the entries in the first row, for Group I, both be 0% rather than 20%, since they wouldn't support option A regardless of cost?