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Guest Post from Philip Hamburger: Before Judging Vaccines, the Court Should Judge Itself
I am happy to share this guest post from Professor Philip Hamburger of Columbia Law School. Phillip is also the President of the New Civil Liberties Alliance, which is involved with the ongoing mandate litigation.
The Biden administration has imposed COVID-19 vaccinations on all healthcare workers at Medicare and Medicaid participating facilities as a condition of federal funding. When this condition came before the Supreme Court last Friday in Biden v. Missouri, the justices aptly inquired whether it departed from the Constitution. But they should have also considered their own departures from the Constitution. They then might have understood the administration's conduct with greater clarity.
The Constitution leaves the federal government much power to spend through its enumerated powers, but does not give Congress a general spending power. Such a move was considered by the Constitutional Convention but clearly abandoned. Nonetheless, the Court—uninhibited by history, intent, or text—says that Congress has a general spending power, thereby giving Congress a power to spend that exceeds even its inflated power to regulate. Congress therefore increasingly turns to spending conditions to regulate in areas, such as health and education, that lie beyond its traditional power to regulate. Of course, this is not to say that the Court will soon back away from a general spending power. But if the Court were to recognize that it (not the Constitution) legitimized federal spending beyond the specialized areas of federal power, it might become more cautious. It might hesitate to let enlarged federal spending become a mechanism for expanded control, whether of states or private parties.
The Court also should reconsider its role in permitting federal spending for the states. The Constitution authorizes taxing and associated spending only for limited purposes, most broadly to provide for the "general Welfare of the United States." Although the definition of the general welfare is open to dispute, one meaning traditionally was beyond dispute: that it barred federal taxing and spending to or for the states or their localities. For example, it was proposed that Congress could give disaster funding to dispossessed individuals in the City of Savannah, and this was vigorously debated. But it was widely recognized—even by Alexander Hamilton—that Congress could not fund the states or pay their obligations.
The Supreme Court has broken down this limit on federal funding and thereby enabled the flow of federal money to the states. Federal funding averages about a third of each state's budget—so the federal government can make peremptory demands for matching funds and other conditions from the states. This has drawn many states toward bankruptcy and has often reduced them to instruments for federal spending and regulation—a prime example being the condition in Friday's case requiring vaccinations.
The Supreme Court assumes that the danger of federal demands on the states has been cured with the Court's anti-commandeering doctrine—a doctrine that bars the federal government from directing or "commandeering" the states. This doctrine recognizes that laws can violate the Constitution structurally as well as verbally. In McCulloch v. Maryland, Chief Justice Marshall held that a state cannot tax a federal instrumentality, and from a different direction, for example, in Printz v. United States, the court has held that the federal government cannot commandeer state policymaking.
But the Court says that there is no commandeering without federal coercion, and most federal conditions on funding for the states get categorized as consensual. The Court thereby licenses the federal government to evade the commandeering doctrine simply by using funding conditions. Of course, federal funding creates profound pressures, which more than supply any requirement of federal action. But the larger point is that commandeering and other structural violations of the Constitution should not depend on any coercion, force, or other pressure. So the coercion requirement is utterly misbegotten. The Court, however, has persuaded itself of the centrality of coercion. It thereby leaves the states utterly vulnerable to federal conditions directing their policies—as in Biden v. Missouri.
These judicial errors—creating a general spending power, permitting federal funding for the states, and allowing federal conditions to evade the anti-commandeering doctrine—are bad enough. But there is an even broader judicial failure.
The Constitution provides only one avenue for regulating Americans—namely for Congress, a public body, to make a public law imposing a binding regulation on the public. All the same, the Supreme Court allows the federal government to regulate through conditions on its largess. When the federal government offers money to states on the condition that they submit to vaccination conditions, these conditions are regulatory. But rather than be imposed by force of law in the public act of a public body, they apply to states and state institutions only through the transactions in which they are accepted. This pecuniary mode of control allows the federal government to buy off political and legal opposition. It also transforms constitutional governance through public acts into transactional control done in private.
One might protest that consent is a cure—that it is enough for the federal government to get the acquiescence of the affected states or private parties. But is it really to be believed that the federal government can use our money to secure our dependence, and then subvert our institutions, all on the theory that it has our submission?
Private and even state consent cannot relieve the federal government of its constitutional limits. The ill-fated Articles of Confederation were framed as a compact among the states, and pro-slavery Southerners envisioned the U.S. Constitution as such as compact. But the Constitution was ordained and established by We the People precisely so that it would bind us and our governments as law—the highest of our laws. No amount of private or state consent can alter this law. The Court therefore should be ashamed of any hint that state consent (let alone that secured by unconstitutional grants) can liberate the federal government from its constitutional limits.
So the question in Biden v. Missouri goes far beyond vaccination. At stake is a new mode of governance, the purchase of submission to an unlawful pecuniary mode of regulation. Rather than merely evaluate the Biden administration's misdeeds—serious as they are—the Court should reflect upon its own wayward doctrines. Its departures from the Constitution have authorized, even normalized, the government's departures. For this, the Court is to blame.
Philip Hamburger is a professor at Columbia Law School and president of the New Civil Liberties Alliance. He is the author of Purchasing Submission: Conditions, Power, and Freedom (Harvard Univ. Press 2021).
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Indeed!
Down With The Administrative State!
1780s or Bust!
Add that the power to tax is the power to destroy. The federal and state governments tap the same potential revenue stream, taxation of the same people.
As the federal government taxes the residents of a state, it reduces the possible revenue the state can collect without ruining its economy. Then it offers to return some of the money to the state if the state submits.
At some level of taxation, the state becomes incapable of funding basic services if it doesn't submit to the federal government to get that money back into its economy. Well before that point it renders its economy uncompetative from the drain of unreturned revenues.
You do get you've left the text a while back, right? You're just working in your own political philosophy ideas into the Constitution.
I've never claimed you can't make policy arguments, just that policy arguments aren't constitutional arguments.
I believe Hamburger is right about the (un)constitutionality of these programs, I believed they were unconstitutional on those grounds before I'd ever heard the argument from him.
I think they're ALSO bad policy.
It’s literally just a coincide that the constitution, whose meaning was hotly debated from the beginning, prevents all the liberal policies I don’t like and permits any conservative ones I do.
Sure, Jan.
"It’s literally just a coincide that the constitution, whose meaning was hotly debated from the beginning, prevents all the liberal policies I don’t like and permits any conservative ones I do."
Oh, there are plenty of liberal policies I don't like that are clearly constitutional, (Progressive taxation, for instance.) and conservative policies that are clearly unconstitutional though I'd like them. (Denying birthright citizenship for the children of illegal aliens is pretty much a loser, I think, though it would be a wonderful policy. I'd favor an amendment doing that.)
It's only natural that conservatives would find the Constitution on their side more often than the left, because it's the left that are trying to expand government and do more with it, in the teeth of a constitution intended to limit that same government. But the alignment is hardly perfect.
“It's only natural that conservatives would find the Constitution on their side more often than the left, because it's the left that are trying to expand government and do more with it, in the teeth of a constitution intended to limit that same government.”
In your view. You think it’s on your side. Lol.
“ I think, though it would be a wonderful policy.”
Would you also advocate deporting these children who have only ever known this place as home? Would you find that wonderful? Would you find it wonderful to have armed agents use physical force to seize someone and send them to a dangerous place where they don’t know
The language all because of who their parents were? Would you be willing to
engage in these wonderful acts themselves? Would you point a gun at an 8
year old to force him on a van to take him to a detention center to be processed and subject to abuse by guards then placed on a flight to a country all because of who his parents are? Would you?
Amendment 32 to the Constitution:
The But Muh ‘Feelz exemption to the law.
I wouldn't do it retroactively, but going forward I would absolutely remove the incentive for people to illegally obtain citizenship for their children.
If somebody was born here to illegal parents, and they've achieved adulthood, I'd let them stay, pursuant to a new law, if Congress ever bothers to make the practice legal. But I'm certainly not going to separate families, nor am I willing to let illegal aliens anchor themselves here by sneaking in and having a kid.
So you'd take a gun put it up against an 8 year old's head to force him in a van, drive him to a detention camp to be held in bad conditions, possibly subject to sexual abuse until he is processed and whisked away to a country where he doesn't speak the language? Yes or no. Would you do this?
"you'd take a gun put it up against an 8 year old's head"
Only democrats do that.
https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=cuvI1WDi&id=13DBC74C341AE891B78966B02597ACAFDB5A79A8&thid=OIP.cuvI1WDi3hyazYD-ApfEZQAAAA&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR.72ebc8d560e2de1c9acd80fe0297c465%3frik%3dqHla26%252bslyWwZg%26riu%3dhttp%253a%252f%252fwww.latinamericanstudies.org%252felian%252felian-gun1.jpg%26ehk%3dPULxaaspJTAHuv%252fC%252f2zhPKhYFo2412Ze7tKRLD4TzEQ%253d%26risl%3d%26pid%3dImgRaw%26r%3d0&exph=270&expw=400&q=Elian+Gonzalez+Picture+Gun&simid=608042153834123320&FORM=IRPRST&ck=E6310B5A9F720177097D9B7EEDF16039&selectedIndex=0&idpp=overlayview&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0
Democrats are shoving their children into car trunks to take them to COVID testing centers. That's how insane they've become.
Of course she's a public school teacher.
https://www.cnn.com/2022/01/10/us/texas-mother-son-trunk-covid-19/index.html
And that was every bit as wrong and awful. I never want that to happen to anyone ever.
Now, here's the question: do you?
What's more important to you LawTalkingGuy, rule of man or rule of law?
Morality is the most important thing. Our moral duties to others not to harm them or engage in violence or wanton cruelty against them simply because their existence vexes us is the most important thing.
You seem like an insane person. Did you know that no other country in the world allows illegal border crossers and tourists to show up and pop out a kid who automatically becomes a citizen?
As Harry Reid said, "no sane country" would have this policy. A policy that, by the way, upon further examination, is not required by the Constitution in my view.
"You seem like an insane person."
I am perfectly sane, just have a strong moral compass. What's insane is using violence against children to remove them from their homes and calling it "immigration policy"
"Did you know that no other country in the world allows illegal border crossers and tourists to show up and pop out a kid who automatically becomes a citizen?"
And that's an evil and cruel policy.
As Harry Reid said, "no sane country" would have this policy.
Harry Reid was a dick.
"A policy that, by the way, upon further examination, is not required by the Constitution in my view."
Well luckily you are wrong.
And again: if you use a gun, to kidnap a child, to force them to another place that is not their home simply for being born in the wrong place...you would be the insane one. Saying its because of immigration law doesn't change the magnitude of the cruelty involved in that act. It's monstrous. Cruel and evil people don't suddenly become less cruel and evil because its government policy to be cruel and evil
Canada and Mexico are also crazy?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli#Unrestricted_jus_soli
You're the outlier here. From your interpretation of the 14th Amendment, to your dislike of Americans with the wrong parents, to your constant defending of the Confederacy.
Funny, that's the same argument that the Democratic AGs of some blue stats are using for why the SALT cap is unconstitutional.
They can make the argument, but how is that a federal issue? Don’t tax so much at the state level and you won’t have this problem.
I have never understood why there is a SALT deduction at all. What's the rationale for having the federal government pick up part of the cost of state and local services to state and local residents?
I suppose the rationale is that the federal government, by taxing your income after state level taxes, leaves the states more free to set their own state taxes. And that's not wrong.
But is it really to be believed that the federal government can use our money to secure our dependence, and then subvert our institutions, all on the theory that it has our submission?
Why, yes. Yes it is to be believed. And not only to be believed, but also recast, in less tendentious terms. Except for the part about, "our money." After you pay your taxes, it becomes the government's money. If it were yours, of course you could direct the government not to use it for ends you disapprove. But you can't, so it is not your money.
Philip Hamburger sounds like a crank.
People who want to be free, or at least enjoy the rule of law, always sound like cranks to people who just want to exercise untrammeled power.
Things cranks tell themselves.
Untrammeled power like judges deciding what elected officials get to spend money on?
Stephen,
If only the absurdity stopped there. Do you really suppose that all the money one earns is his to dispose of how he wishes? It is only the money one sends to Government in the form of taxes which becomes the governments? Can one choose not to send his money to Government? Nonsense! The view of liberals is that all the money a person earns belongs to the government, to dispose of how the government wishes. Only the portion the government leaves to an individual is actually his -though still with strings attached to spend as the government sees fit.
Who can forget the Dems claim in Obamacare that they control our economic decisions?
From PPACA:
EFFECTS ON THE NATIONAL ECONOMY AND INTERSTATE
COMMERCE.—The effects described in this paragraph are the following:
(A) The requirement regulates activity that is commercial and economic in nature: economic and financial decisions about how and when health care is paid for, and when health insurance is purchased
Judge Gladys Kessler (Mead v. Holder):
For the foregoing reasons, the Court finds that Congress had a rational basis for its conclusion that the aggregate of individual decisions not to purchase health insurance substantially affects the national health insurance market. Consequently, Congress was acting within the bounds of its Commerce Clause power when it enacted § 1501
Justice Ginsberg et al (NFIB):
First, Congress has the power to regulate economic activities “that substantially affect interstate commerce.” Gonzales v. Raich, 545 U. S. 1, 17 (2005). This capacious power extends even to local activities that, viewed in the aggregate, have a substantial impact on interstate commerce. See ibid. See also Wickard, 317 U. S., at 125 (“[E]ven if appellee’s activity be local and though it may not be regarded as commerce, it may still, whatever its nature, be reached by Congress if it exerts a substantial economic effect on interstate commerce.”
(and)
Given these far-reaching effects on interstate commerce, the decision to forgo insurance is hardly inconsequential or equivalent to “doing nothing,” ante, at 20; it is, instead, an economic decision Congress has the authority to address under the Commerce Clause.
"Philip Hamburger sounds like a crank."
An anti-government crank pining for illusory good old days starring Jesus, to be precise.
Prof. Phillip Hamburger's career has been devoted to arguments such as 'administrative law is unlawful,' 'public schools should be abolished,' and 'separation of church and state should be dismantled.' So far, he has found it difficult to persuade even the bowtie-and-beards crowd at Federalist Society gatherings.
Prof. Josh Blackman, though, thinks he is just dreamy.
"The Constitution...does not give Congress a general spending power."
The Congress shall have Power To provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States.
Huh. Neat story, bro.
Plus the more things we can spend on, the more ways to hide skimming off the top, and directing funds to enterprises of our friends, who will be grateful! Only fractions of a penny per million dollars at this point. Highly worth it, from a corrupt point of view.
That's a great textual argument, uh wait, (checks text) oh, it isn't at all...
Two quotes which exactly prove the article's thesis yet you present them as if they contradict it.
Congress does not have a general spending power. Congress may spend only>
- for the common Defence; or
- for the general Welfare.
The "common Defence" is well understood and universally accepted to mean the military, its equipment, supplies and installations and nothing more. The "general Welfare" is a lot more ambiguous and less well-defined but cases actually considered by the Founders provide good evidence of what they considered that phrase to mean. As the article points out, the debate over disaster funding for the City of Savannah demonstrates that they did not consider that to qualify.
So you're an 'original expectations' rather than 'original understanding' guy?
I'm not sure how you think those two are any different. But yes, I do believe that if people want to change the meaning of the Constitution, they should do so explicitly - which in this case, means by amendment. The original meaning is the current meaning until and unless it is explicitly changed. The 'contemporary reinterpretation' philosophy is too open to potential abuse.
You might want to escape your bubble momentarily and look up J. Balkin's ideas on this distinction.
I must admit that's not a name I'm familiar with. And one that's defeating my search skills today. Google is returning a number of hits critical of his articles but no links to any original containing those phrases. Can you provide a direct link? Or at least the search terms that worked for you?
So long as Congress or unelected bureaucrats intend their laws to be for the general welfare, then they have the constitutional authority to do it!
-- The Modern Liberal
If there is anything I can't stand, it is all of this damned progress!
-- The Obsolete Conservative
Farts in jars, Kirkland. Farts in jars.
You seem to have roughly the level of regard for me that mainstream academia and America's culture war victors have for the fringe-inhabiting Volokh Conspiracy and the movement conservatives who constitutes our nation's culture war casualties.
Or are you one of the 'conservatives are winning the culture war, Democrats are the real racists, and the Rapture is going to solve everything' misfits?
So let’s just let unelected judges without any qualifications decide it instead!
Even Sotomayor is far smarter than 99% of federal bureaucrats.
Being smarter in the abstract does not guarantee subject matter expertise. I’m sure plenty of lawyers are “smarter” than my dentist…I still don’t let them look at my teeth.
It doesn’t really matter how “smart” judges are, when they’re making factual determinations about things they have no clue about.
Being “smart” doesn’t confer factual knowledge.
Seriously, the last time any of them took a biology class would be Barrett at least 30 years ago. Bet Alito and Breyer never even thought about mRNA until this past year. But suddenly they’re making these factual determinations on vaccine efficacy? It’s fundamentally absurd.
Except they're supposed to be experts on what the constitutional allows, aren't they?
*constitution, ug, need an edit button
The problem with that, is that a lot of the constitutional tests they've come up with, as well as the equity tests used for developing remedies require these sorts of factual determinations. That's why lower court opinions on vaccine mandates were riddled with non-sense and the Justices were going on and on about numbers of cases and how the vaccine works etc. And they're basing these factual questions from things that aren't even in the record below, let alone from their own expertise.
No, let's let the elected Representatives and Senators whose actual job it is decide it instead. Subject, that is, to the limitations of the Constitution approved by the voters and States (which is their job).
What's before the court is not whether or not this is good policy. The only question before the court is whether the Executive Branch of the government was allowed to make that decision.
"No, let's let the elected Representatives and Senators whose actual job it is decide it instead. "
They already did by giving OSHA and HHS authority in these areas.
"What's before the court is not whether or not this is good policy."
That's not true: in determining the remedy and the constitutional fit, the particulars of the policy and the facts about the world leading to it are very much at issue. I mean, Gorsuch is comparing flu and polio numbers to Covid numbers. They're talking about the efficacy of the vaccine. These are all policy issues they're wading into.
"The only question before the court is whether the Executive Branch of the government was allowed to make that decision."
And they're getting the answer by assessing the facts on the ground based on zero expertise whatsoever.
Bottom Line: it is absolutely insane that a bunch of unaccountable lawyers are talking about whether the vaccine works leading up to what the country's vaccine policy is going to be during an unprecedented pandemic. But that's the situation we are in. No other country is going to have unelected randos who haven't taken biology in 40 years decide once and for all that country's Covid response. They'll have elected officials do it based on expert advice.
No, they did not give OSHA that authority - and it's highly questionable whether they gave HHS that authority. Based on her comments, not even Justice Kagan bought that argument. You are assuming your conclusions.
So are you! You were assuming that they didn't...based on what you think the outcome of the case should be (and your understanding of the oral argument)
Do you not think infectious diseases have an impact on workplace safety.
There may be other issues (I think there are), but the statutory language is not one of them, unless the SCOTUS adopts a whole different paradigm of interpreting enabling statutes.
Let’s pause the psychobabble for a minute and look at the actual text of the Spending Clause:
“To provide for the common Defense and general Welfare of the United States.”
I’d like to ask Professor Blackman just one question. If the Spending Clause does not confer a general power, what’s that word “general” doing there? The backstroke?
My point.
Textualism, like 'state's rights,' 'free speech,' etc., is not something most conservatives really believe in, they are just temporarily convenient tools of the day for getting their way.
Why did you replace the "';" with a "." ? Does that statement stand on it's own, or is there any context that's meaningful?
Because I was addressing the spending power, not the taxing power. The things that have to be uniform - duties, imposts, and excises - are all taxes.
Indeed, the fact that the Framers required uniform taxes but not uniform spending strongly suggests disn’t require spending to be iniform. They knew how to require uniformity when they wanted to.
As noted below, the concept of spending that’s uniform throughout the united states would be meaningless. It would mean Congress couldn’t spend on a specific building or project, something it’s done throughout the country’s existence.
This isn’t just anti-New Deal conservativism. This is the kind of early 19th century conservativism that opposed spending on things like buildings, roads, and canals. Buildings, roasds, and canals are always built in specific places. Spending on them is by their nature non-uniform.
Nothing about the preceding to your quote?
"The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; "
The second half of the clause isn't a separate independent clause in the constitution like you are making it out to be. It's a qualification on Congress's power to tax.
Not some stand-alone grant of authority.
Exactly, a qualification of the power to tax. But not the power to spend.
"General" in this use means "not specific," that is, not spent for the benefit of a specific state (or city or person).
The federal money given to the individual states (Medicare grants, highway grants, etc.) isn't "general" in that sense.
That’s a very specialized meaning, and very far from the plain, ordinary meaning.
And it’s a nonsense meaning. Every appropriation Congress makes is always for some specific purpose - only for building a specific building, only for a specific purpose like health care. It never makes a “general” appropriation in the opposite sense of specific - an appropriation that can be used by anyone for any purpose at all. One could argue that any specification Congress makes in an appropriation - any limitation at all as to who can use it or for what purpose - makes it a “specific” appropriation rather than a “general one.”
Thst’s nonsense.
Or is it only the appropriations whose specifications you don’t like that you claim lack generality? If you like the policy behind the specifications, suddenly they are general enough for you?
Not sure why my policy preferences would matter here. Just dissecting why the argument could make sense.
I have to disagree about "general." It quite often means "not specific" (even wrt the army rank).
In that sense, the government can build a building for the good of the country, but it can't give money to a state to build the state's own building.
I think you're right that there is some "line drawing" to be done, and the SC has even attempted to create a boundary via the "coercion" rule.
Why? Except perhaps for a handful of biildings like the Capital or White House, Most buildings don’t provide any general good to the country. They only create an improvement in, and serve, a specific location. They benefit people who are closer to them more than the people farther awau. They aren’t general in the sense of uniform at all.
I don’t see a meaningful differnece between building a building in one state and not another, on the one hand, and spending money on ststes that wxcept it but not on states that don’t, on the other.
"what’s that word “general” doing there?"
Spending has to be for the broad welfare of the nation, not for any narrow purpose.
Spending on an interstate highway system, yes. Spending on a bike path in Portland, no.
But how can you have an interstate highway system if you’re never allowed to build a road?
That’s the problem in a nutshell.
If you can’t build a bike path in Portland, how can you build a road between, say, San Francisco and New York City? If it passes through Chicago, it’s not going to benefit the people in New Orleans. Any specific road whatsoever will only pass through a limited set of locations, and won’t benefit the people outside those locations. It’ll be just like the bike path in Portland. The fact that it’s bigger doesn’t change anything. It still won’t benefit the entire country equally. No road is going to be “general.”
I also think the fact that the early Congress’ appropriated money for specific projects, not just building projects but things like paying off state debts, belies the claim that the word “general” has a meaning that would prohibit a great deal of what they did.
To see the issue more clearly, think about railroads, especially in the era before gages were standardized. Many railroads only benefitted a limited set of people. And yet the federal government funded them from quite early on.
general modifies welfare, not spending.
To provide for the general welfare means that whatever acts are justified under that clause apply to the population as a whole. Giving money to individual states does not advance the 'general welfare', but rather the welfare of a specific state, ergo, this clause does not authorize such expenditures. (Not even if you give to all the states, because each state you give to is not advancing the 'general welfare'. This clause only authorizes national policies).
*apply to or benefit the population as a whole.
ie, funding an agency, with specific buildings in specific places, if that agency improves the general welfare, is fine. But state targeted funding is obviously not improving the general welfare, because it doesn't improve the welfare of citizens outside that state.
And aside from “general” having a plain meaning and evidencing a specific intent on the Fraamers’ part not to impose limitations, what is this business of “everybody understood” that Congress couldn’t give money to states?
If everybody understood it wasn’t to be done, why did everybody do it? M
If one objects to the Left pulling supposed constitutional restrictions out of their asses whenever they don’t like a policy, shouldn’t one make some effort to keeo ones own bottom clean?
What evidence of specific intent are you talking about?
Have you seen this?
https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artI_S8_C1_2/
“general” having a plain meaning"
general
[ˈjen(ə)rəl]
ADJECTIVE
affecting or concerning all or most people, places, or things; widespread.
"books of general interest"
You can't spend on something that benefits only one city, it has to be a benefit to "all or most people".
Law professor with a three year degree in reading excerpts of what judges wrote and cannot be held accountable for any ill-informed views encourages unelected judges with three year degrees in reading excerpts of what other judges wrote who cannot be held accountable for their views to substitute their judgement (based on their experience reading the excerpts of what judges wrote) for that of elected and accountable officials, and subject-matter experts.
You really can’t make this stuff up.
No one in the Administrative State is accountable.
Much more so than SCOTUS.
Maybe we need to have the Senate start confirming these lifer bureaucrats that make law over us and who never get held accountable for their deeds, who are top 5%'ers in total compensation, and who retire with six-figure salaries funding by the people they spent their careers oppressing and robbing.
" they spent their careers oppressing and robbing "
Disaffected, antisocial, delusional, right-wing, anti-government cranks are among my favorite culture war casualties.
It is become increasingly difficult to distinguish the Volokh Conspiracy (audience and contributors) from the crowd at a Ron Paul rally.
You'll be able to tell us apart pretty soon. We don't be the ones with Vaxx AIDS.
https://twitter.com/N625662/status/1481203014845276161
lmao no refunds
Gullible, ignorant, and bigoted is precisely the way you were destined to go through life, BCD.
Still wondering why guys like me get to make the rules and guys like you must comply?
Because government hiring incentivizes uneducated and unimaginative by overpaying them w.r.t. real life while expecting next to nothing in return?
Also: why are we listening to an absolute moron who thinks public schools are unconstitutional?
Why would we listen to an absolute moron who thinks public schools ARE constitutional?
Because they obviously are? There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution or any Supreme Court precedent that would prohibit states from providing public education.
Under the prevailing, expansive views of the bill of rights and countless additional unenumerated rights being incorporated against the States, I can see the argument. Which argument it seems Philip Hamburger summarizes here: https://www.wsj.com/articles/public-school-system-constitutional-private-mcauliffe-free-speech-11634928722
But setting that aside, you singled out states. What about the federal government?
The federal government doesn’t provide public schools…(except in DC I suppose).
And those arguments are stupid. There is no “right” enumerated or not NOT to have public schools, any more than there is a right or a limit on a state having a public hospital or a library or a park. And parents can already send them to private school or home school. Saying the whole of public education is fundamentally unconstitutional is fundamentally stupid and unserious. He’s not an excellent scholar, he’s a dumbass polemicist.
The federal government doesn't directly control public schools, they just do it indirectly with funding conditions on many billions of dollars.
The broader arguments are no more stupid than prevailing constitutional orthodoxies.
"The broader arguments are no more stupid than prevailing constitutional orthodoxies."
They absolutely are. That's why he had to publish them in the op-ed section of the WSJ and not a legal publication. It's a lunatic position that I doubt HE even believes in. I mean seriously: using a procedural due process cases about when governments can terminate welfare benefits to bolster the idea that schools are unconstitutional because they make parents feel bad, and that violates the First Amendment somehow is absolutely unserious non-sense from an unserious person. It would be sanctionable if anyone tried to base a lawsuit on that. It absolutely is much more stupid than even the dumbest constitutional doctrines in existence or that have been previously floated.
Not even close, you have the idea that the 14th amendment prohibits states from outlawing the killing of unborn infants, or that it mandates the redefinition of marriage to something different from all prior human history. Compared to that, it's not much of a jump to say that education is obviously speech, and that to subject parents to oppressive levels of taxation to fund ideological and objectionable government speech, coupled with making children's full time attendance in subjection to that speech mandatory, is unconstitutional. Ultimately, the Constitution is a brief piece of parchment that can be made to say any number of things.
Setting aside constitutional issues completely, do you think it would be a sensible idea to fund students rather than schools and let parents and students choose their schooling?
Compared to that, it's not much of a jump to say that education is obviously speech, and that to subject parents to oppressive levels of taxation to fund ideological and objectionable government speech, coupled with making children's full time attendance in subjection to that speech mandatory, is unconstitutional.
Yes it is. Because 1) full time attendance is NOT mandatory, 2) taxation is not oppressive just because you don't like what it pays for and 3) and even accepting the premise that "education is speech" tax dollars pay for speech all the time. We have to pay the salaries of elected officials who speak, for police who speak, for stop signs that tell us to stop. so it is ludicrous to say the state can't support schools (that you don't even have to go to)
By contrast, the right to choose is actually about limiting government's ability to take away someone's liberty (or even life) by forcing them to carry a pregnancy to term no matter the circumstances.
As for same-sex marriage: the court's rationale was dumb, but since the equal protection clause is a thing and says "people" it makes sense that you can't discriminate based on sex in the issuing of government certificates confirming a legal relationship.
Those things are absolutely much less dumb than saying state's can't have public schools. Again: that's like saying state's can't have libraries, parks, or hospitals, or traffic laws.
You didn't answer my question. What do you think?
"full time attendance is NOT mandatory" Right, and so you agree that mandatory attendance would be unconstitutional. How much financial or other pressure would it take before attendance is considered "mandatory" in your view? Back in the day, young children were labor assets to the parents and worked around the home and farm, now things look different.
It's not even close to as dumb as other "constitutional" rules like the ones I mentioned. From the article, "A long line of Establishment Clause decisions recognize the risk of coercion in public-school messages. In Grand Rapids School District v. Ball (1985), the high court condemned private religious teaching in rooms leased from public schools. “Such indoctrination, if permitted to occur, would have devastating effects on the right of each individual voluntarily to determine what to believe (and what not to believe) free of any coercive pressures from the State,” Justice William Brennan wrote for the majority.
Coercion seemed central in such cases because of the vulnerability of children to indoctrination. Summarizing the court’s jurisprudence, Justice Sandra Day O’Connor, concurring in Wallace v. Jaffree (1985), observed that “when government-sponsored religious exercises are directed at impressionable children who are required to attend school, . . . government endorsement is much more likely to result in coerced religious beliefs.”"
It would be very simple to apply this same logic to coerced beliefs that are not usually thought of as "religious," but are equally a matter of ideology and faith and equally subject to disagreement or objection. I'm not saying this is necessarily correct as a constitutional matter (either according to its original meaning or the very different matter of prevailing jurisprudence). Just that it's no worse than any number of accepted judicial opinions.
I don't want to answer your question because its based on a stupid premise that public schools are unconstitutional. It is much worse than other judicial doctrines and you're endorsing complete nonsense. If you're talking con law you also have to talk remedies, what remedy could the courts order?
You think the court can enter an injunction, applicable to all fifty states. that schools are illegal, they're all shut down immediately, student education is now terminated unless they can enroll in a limited number of private schools, hundreds of thousands of teachers are out of jobs?
That is obviously more insane than saying you have to issue marriage certificates to gay couples.
Phillip Hamburger is an excellent scholar and I'm glad to read something from him here.
Unfortunately everything that is wrong with our dysfunctional and largely unconstitutional federal government will probably only continue to grow worse. The last thing I would expect is for SCOTUS to solve it. The second most unlikely source of any solution would be national elections or elected offices of any sort in D.C.
He’s actually a dumbass who thinks public schooling is unconstitutional in its entirety.
Do you think our system of public schooling is unconstitutional in part, rather than in its entirety?
No. How could it be? It’s not compulsory. It’s no more unconstitutional than a public hospital.
The DOE and federal spending on education seems like a prime example of the federal government circumventing the limits of enumerated powers, as described in the OP.
Do you have any thoughts on what is actually in the OP, or just ad hominem that it shouldn't be taken seriously?
My thought is that unserious people should not be taken seriously on any topic whatsoever.
So no. Got it.
Correct. Unserious people who think the constitution doesn't allow government to exist in any form are deserving of nothing but ridicule and scorn.
"who think the constitution doesn't allow government to exist in any form"
Can you point to an example of such a person?
Phillip Hamburger. He's out here arguing Congress can't spend money, state's can't have schools and that all of administrative law is illegal. He doesn't want a functioning government. He's an unserious clown.
Oh I see, so you're either incapable of understanding conservative viewpoints, or dishonest, or some combination of the two. Unserious clown indeed.
No I understand them. They are just fundamentally dumb, that’s why most educated people reject them.
He wants to give the unelected courts unfettered power to make final determinations over what and how congress can spend money That’s not a functional government.
He says states can’t provide education. If they can’t even do that; what’s to say they can do ANYTHING. His logic applies to anything at all about state government.
He says admin law is illegal based on some bullshit about monarchy and natural law, completed divorced from the constitutional practice even of the founders.
Taking his ideas to their logician He doesn’t want government at any level to function or exist other than what limited things the court from time to time might permit in their discretion.
What’s dishonest is Hamburger pretending he’s a serious person. I’m just calling out his utter stupidity. If you want to label stupid ideas “conservative” that’s a mistake I’m willing to let you make.
"Phillip Hamburger. He's out here arguing Congress can't spend money, state's can't have schools and that all of administrative law is illegal. He doesn't want a functioning government. He's an unserious clown."
So, you're defining "a functioning government" as a government that does everything YOU think a government should do. And America was in a state of anarchy for much of its history.
Because he's not arguing that Congress can't spend money. He's arguing that Congress can't spend money on anything it happens to feel like, but instead only on carrying into effect enumerated powers.
Can't speak for LTG, but there is a lot more that I want government to do than spend money. I think being able to spend money for general welfare is necessary for having a minimally *functional* government.
Look at every other government worldwide, just about ever.
Look at the English government we based our Constitution on.
You and ML are ideologues, whose ideal government would be a disaster if implemented.
He’s arguing that an unelected council of nine gets to decide that Congress can spend money on what they feel like they should
I guess that’s a “functioning” government in the sense that Iran also has a functioning government, but it’s certainly not a functioning western-style liberal democracy.
He’s an unserious clown who wants to give supreme power to people we didn’t elect. And so are you.
Sarc,
It’s funny, one of the first fundamental principles underlying the development of parliamentary democracy, was that the legislature gets to decide how and when to spend the money. It was the most important thing. And they want to hand that over to a tiny group of unelected people. Let’s just undo 800 years of constitutional development because they don’t like what Congress spends money on.
Does the author of this article realize that the federal assumption of state debts was one of the three prongs of Alexander Hamilton's financial program under George Washington's presidency?
Does the author of the article know about the Whiskey Rebellion and Washington's willingness to lead American troops into battle against American citizens in order to enforce this financial burden upon the states and states' citizens (the only time a sitting American president led troops into battle, btw)?
While the author is correct to point out that the federal government enforces federal burdens upon individual states, he's stark raving mad if he thinks this only began in the 21st century. The Founders of the Constitution did exactly what government is doing today.
That doesn't mean Washington and Hamilton were right then, or that Biden is correct today. All it means is, politicians have always been d*mned liars and no one has ever really been interested in following the Constitution, not even the people who wrote it.
No, the people who wrote it weren’t being hypocrites. They simply didn’t give it the interpretation Professor Hamburger is giving it.
I think there is an argument to be made that the federal government’s power to condition expenditures on states passing laws it wants regulating their own people is limited, but I think the argunent that such laws aren’t general or lackl uniformity is bogus.
Let’s start with an obvious limiting case. Suppose Congress passes a law to supplement state legislators’ salaries, givimg a million dollars to every state legislator who votes for a law the Federal government wants passed, but only if the law passes.
Could Congress do that? Why or why not?
I think the reasons why not illustrate the real problem arising from too coercive a federal power. It’s not a generality or uniformity problem.
"Suppose Congress passes a law to supplement state legislators’ salaries, givimg a million dollars to every state legislator who votes for a law the Federal government wants passed, but only if the law passes.
Could Congress do that? Why or why not?"
Of course not. If I'm not mistaken, the Constitution requires that the million dollars is supplied by the lobbyists and donors who share the same interest. With an optional bonus of post-govt consulting gigs or board seats for you and your family at Raytheon or some Ukrainian outfit sucking down billions in foreign aid. We do things the right way here.
I like your optimism about the true views of Blackman et al.
Hey, MK, is Biden still retarded under your view, and what's your view gonna be when Trump runs at the same age in 24? Lol
One does not need to be optimistic about Blackman's views (or anyone else's) to be critical of your logical fallacies. If you have a substantive argument to make, then make it. If all you have are irrelevancies and distractions, then please stop wasting everyone's time.
Once again someone with a community college 'knowledge' of deductive logic lays a turd.
https://press.uchicago.edu/ucp/books/book/chicago/I/bo17436684.html
But, to be critical of my "logical fallacies", it would help if I was making a logical argument. Which I wasn't. My comment in no way relied on (formal) logic. It was simply a short way of accusing the OP of wanting to dismantle the administrative state, which seems like a plausible accusation to make.
Isn't Biden retarded in everyone's view?
This is a legal blog, Queenie. People are discussing legal issues. Your knee-jerk emotional reactions to things you can’t comprehend don’t belong in the comments here. Make an argument.
So you think that repeating Marinned's logical fallacy is a substantive reply?
Yes, Hamburger argues (strongly) against the Administrative State. No, that does not require a return to 1780. Implying that those are the only two options is, as mad_kalak pointed out, a false dichotomy.
Are you autistic or that versed in community college logic?
You're wasting your time treating these lefty commenters as serious or sincere.
Most of them are Biden-esque in their cognitive abilities and argue like Sotomayor.
The lack of imagination and critical thinking on the part of run-of-the-mill liberal statists never ceases to amaze. It's certainly closely related to their profound ignorance of history or obstinate refusal to learn any of its lessons.
They actually think that the regulatory state, the welfare state, government control and operation of the education system, the healthcare industry, and just about anything else, is actually beneficial (other than to rent-seeking bureaucracies, monopolists, crony capitalists, etc).
I'm replying to kalak who has argued here Biden is almost certainly disabled. But, nice try!
Lol, kalak went out of his way to argue Biden must be mentally disabled given his age, but now when his preferred candidate is running at that age he's 'I don't care...'
No, he explicitly argued medical history and the evidence of our senses.
Queen Almathea has rarely if ever made a post worth reading or responding to.
Every once in a while Queen has a worthwhile comment and engages in sincere conversation. Unfortunately, today does not seem to be one of those days...
"It's certainly closely related to their profound ignorance of history."
Weird because most historians, the people who study it for a living rather than amateurs who have never been in an archive are liberals...