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Preliminary Injunction Against Military Mandatory Vaccination Policy
From U.S. Navy Seals 1-26 v. Biden, decided today by Judge Reed O'Connor (N.D. Tex.):
Our nation asks the men and women in our military to serve, suffer, and sacrifice. But we do not ask them to lay aside their citizenry and give up the very rights they have sworn to protect….
Thirty-five Navy Special Warfare servicemembers allege that the military's mandatory vaccination policy violates their religious freedoms under the First Amendment and Religious Freedom Restoration Act. The Navy provides a religious accommodation process, but by all accounts, it is theater. The Navy has not granted a religious exemption to any vaccine in recent memory. It merely rubber stamps each denial. The Navy servicemembers in this case seek to vindicate the very freedoms they have sacrificed so much to protect. The COVID-19 pandemic provides the government no license to abrogate those freedoms. There is no COVID-19 exception to the First Amendment. There is no military exclusion from our Constitution….
Representing the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant branches of Christianity, Plaintiffs object to receiving the COVID-19 vaccine based on their religious beliefs. These beliefs fall into the following categories: (1) opposition to abortion and the use of aborted fetal cell lines in development of the vaccine; (2) belief that modifying one's body is an afront to the Creator; (3) direct, divine instruction not to receive the vaccine; and (4) opposition to injecting trace amounts of animal cells into one's body. Plaintiffs' beliefs about the vaccine are undisputedly sincere, and it is not the role of this Court to determine their truthfulness or accuracy…
Plaintiffs filed their religious accommodation requests as early as August and as late as December. In many cases, the Plaintiffs' commanding officers recommended their requests be approved. Even so, as of December 17, the Navy has summarily denied at least twenty-nine of the thirty-five accommodations requests, the majority of which have been appealed. The Navy has made no final determinations on appeal.
To adjudicate a religious accommodation request, the Navy uses a six-phase, fifty-step process. Although "all requests for accommodation of religious practices are assessed on a case-by-case basis," Phase 1 of the Navy guidance document instructs an administrator to update a prepared disapproval template with the requester's name and rank.. Based on this boilerplate rejection, Plaintiffs believe that this process is "pre-determined" and sidesteps the individualized review required by law…. {The record overwhelmingly demonstrates that the Navy's religious accommodation process is an exercise in futility.} …
The court concluded that the denial of religious exemptions in this situation likely violated the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act (enacted in 1993):
Plaintiffs allege that the vaccine mandate substantially burdens their religious exercise without satisfying the compelling interest required under RFRA. Defendants respond that even if Plaintiffs' beliefs are substantially burdened, the Navy has a compelling interest in keeping its force fit and responsive to national security threats. And while Defendants assert that vaccination is the least restrictive means to achieve this end, Plaintiffs suggest alternatives exist. The Court concludes that Defendants have not demonstrated a compelling interest justifying the substantial burden imposed on the Plaintiffs' religious beliefs. Therefore, there is no need to discuss narrow tailoring.
The Religious Freedom Restoration Act "was designed to provide very broad protection for religious liberty." Passed in 1993 with nearly unanimous support, RFRA provides that the:
Government may substantially burden a person's exercise of religion only if it demonstrates that application of the burden to the person—(1) is in furtherance of a compelling governmental interest; and (2) is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling governmental interest.
RFRA extends to the military, because under the text of the statute, "government" includes any "branch, department, agency, instrumentality, and official (or other person acting under color of law) of the United States." …
Defendants have substantially burdened Plaintiffs' religious beliefs. The government burdens religion when it "put[s] substantial pressure on an adherent to modify his behavior and to violate his beliefs." That is especially true when the government imposes a choice between one's job and one's religious belief. Here, Plaintiffs must decide whether to lose their livelihoods or violate sincerely held religious beliefs. Because they will not compromise these religious beliefs, Plaintiffs have been threatened with separation from the military and other disciplinary action.
Because the Plaintiffs have demonstrated a substantial burden, Defendants must show that this burden furthers a compelling interest using the least restrictive means….
Defendants argue that the Navy has a vital national security interest in keeping its force healthy and ready to deploy. Because Plaintiffs are members of Special Operations teams, these individuals must stay healthy to carry out highly specialized missions.
Although "[s]temming the spread of COVID-19 is unquestionably a compelling interest," its limits are finite. Roman Cath. Diocese of Brooklyn v. Cuomo (2020). Courts must "look beyond broadly formulated interests," and instead consider the "asserted harm of granting specific exemptions to particular religious claimants." In other words, Defendants must provide more than a broadly formulated interest in "national security." They must articulate a compelling interest in vaccinating the thirty-five religious servicemembers currently before the Court.
Without individualized assessment, the Navy cannot demonstrate a compelling interest in vaccinating these particular Plaintiffs. By all accounts, Plaintiffs have safely carried out their jobs during the pandemic. Prior to the vaccine mandate, at least six Plaintiffs conducted large-scale trainings and led courses without incident. Despite Defendants' dismissive remark that Plaintiffs' roles "obviously are not amenable to telework," at least two Plaintiffs have routinely done so. Eleven Plaintiffs successfully deployed. The Navy even awarded one Plaintiff the Joint Service Commendation Medal for "safely navigating restricted movement and distancing requirements" under COVID-19 protocol in early 2020.
Even if Defendants have a broad compelling interest in widespread vaccination of its force, they have achieved this goal without the participation of the thirty-five Plaintiffs here. At least 99.4% of all active-duty Navy servicemembers have been vaccinated. The remaining 0.6% is unlikely to undermine the Navy's efforts. Today, Plaintiffs present a lower risk of infection and transmission than in the earlier days of the pandemic. Several Plaintiffs have tested positive for antibodies, showing the presence of natural immunity. With a 99.4% vaccination rate, the Navy's herd immunity is at an all-time high. COVID-19 treatments are becoming increasingly effective at reducing hospitalization and death.
Moreover, the Navy is willing to grant exemptions for non-religious reasons. Its mandate includes carveouts for those participating in clinical trials and those with medical contraindications and allergies to vaccines. Because these categories of exempt servicemembers are still deployable, a clinical trial participant who receives a placebo may find himself ill in the high-stakes situation that Defendants fear. As a result, the mandate is underinclusive. "Indeed, underinclusiveness … is often regarded as a telltale sign that the government's interest in enacting a liberty-restraining pronouncement is not in fact 'compelling.'"
For these reasons, the Court finds that Defendants do not demonstrate a compelling interest to overcome the Plaintiffs' substantial burden. Without a compelling interest, the Court need not address whether Defendants have used the least restrictive means….
I'm pretty skeptical about this analysis, and in particular the arguments that the presence of narrow medical exceptions requires the granting of religious exceptions; I'm inclined to favor the First Circuit's analysis in Doe v. Mills, which held that denial of religious exemptions from a healthcare worker vaccination mandate passes strict scrutiny. (For support for the district court's view, see Justice Gorsuch, Thomas, and Alito's dissent from the denial of relief in that case.)
The court also held that plaintiffs stated a claim under the First Amendment:
The Court turns now to the Plaintiffs' First Amendment claim. Plaintiffs argue that the Navy's mandate triggers strict scrutiny, because it is not neutral or generally applicable. Defendants insist they have carried their burden to demonstrate their compelling interest and the least restrictive means. The Court finds that for the same reasons Plaintiffs succeed on their RFRA claim, they also prevail on their First Amendment claim.
To assess neutrality and general applicability, courts consider both the structure of the law and any disparate outcomes it creates. "A law is not generally applicable if it invites the government to consider the particular reasons for a person's conduct by providing a mechanism for individualized exemptions." Fulton v. City of Philadelphia (2021). "[G]overnment regulations are not neutral and generally applicable, and therefore trigger strict scrutiny under the Free Exercise Clause, whenever they treat any comparable secular activity more favorably than religious exercise." Tandon.
The Navy's mandate is not neutral and generally applicable. First, by accepting individual applications for exemptions, the law invites an individualized assessment of the reasons why a servicemember is not vaccinated. Consequently, favoritism is built into the mandate.
Second, the "comparable secular activity" includes refusing the vaccine for medical reasons or participation in a clinical trial. These medically exempt, unvaccinated servicemembers are immediately deployable while unvaccinated servicemembers with religious objections are not. Defendants justify this discrepancy by contrasting the number of requests: "Whereas there are only seven permanent medical exemptions for all Navy and Reserve personnel from the COVID-19 immunization duty, there are more than three thousand pending requests for a religious exemption."
But an influx of religious accommodation requests is not a valid reason to deny First Amendment rights. No matter how small the number of secular exemptions by comparison, any favorable treatment—in this case, deployability without medical disqualification—defeats neutrality. For these reasons, the mandate triggers strict scrutiny under the First Amendment….
The Court did not discuss Goldman v. Weinberger (1986), which surprises me: Goldman was decided during the decades when the Court read the Free Exercise Clause as presumptively requiring exemptions even from neutral, general applicable laws (subject to an override when denial of the exemption passed strict scrutiny); yet the Court held there that courts must give "great deference to the professional judgment of military authorities concerning the relative importance of a particular military interest," indeed to the point that they could refuse an exemption from the headgear rules to an Orthodox Jewish military psychologist who sought to wear a yarmulke. ""[J]udicial deference," the Court held, "is at its apogee when legislative action under the congressional authority to raise and support armies and make rules and regulations for their governance is challenged." Even if Goldman doesn't apply under the RFRA strict scrutiny mandate, it would presumably still apply to First Amendment challenges like the challenge in Goldman itself.
In any event, based on its conclusions about RFRA and the First Amendment, the court issued a preliminary injunction:
Plaintiffs are already suffering injury while waiting for the Navy to adjudicate their requests. In some cases, Plaintiffs have suffered injury because they seek religious accommodation. Plaintiffs testify that they have been barred from official and unofficial travel, including for training and treatment for traumatic brain injuries; denied access to non-work activities, like family day; assigned unpleasant schedules and low-level work like cleaning; relieved of leadership duties and denied opportunities for advancement; kicked out of their platoons; and threatened with immediate separation. At least one Plaintiff has received an email for enrollment in the TAP course, a prerequisite for separation from the Navy….
Defendants are enjoined from applying MANMED § 15-105(3)(n)(9); NAVADMIN 225/21; Trident Order #12; and NAVADMIN 256/21 to Plaintiffs. Defendants are also enjoined from taking any adverse action against Plaintiffs on the basis of Plaintiffs' requests for religious accommodation.
I assume the federal government will now appeal to the Fifth Circuit.
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'(3) direct, divine instruction not to receive the vaccine'
And this is proven how? Heh. My rights under the 14th amendment are subjugated because of this? Because of a message received from on high to strong men so afraid of modern technology (apart from weaponry) that even I am braver than them?
The Divine Being won't tell the person when or where the enemy might attack (saving the lives of fellow soldiers), but It provides instructions to not take the a vaccine.
That's a lousy super-power.
Isn´t claiming direct, divine instruction ordinarily considered a symptom of severe mental illness?
Not under the constitution.
No, but it is divination and a very nasty sin. Having no scripture or any other religious teaching on which to base his alleged sincere belief, he instead claims to know the will of God.
God don’t like that.
"God don’t like that."
That is divination and a very nasty sin.
No, dumbass, He tells us Himself.
Under Thomas v Review Board courts aren't permitted to question the soundness of a religious belief, only its sincerity. But if this reason is permitted with no way to successfully challenge its sincerity (how do you disprove the claim of receiving direct, divine instruction), then Houston, we have a problem (every objection can be framed in this manner).
It doesn't need to be proven. The burden of proof is on the government to disprove it.
And how, precisely, are your rights under the 14th Amendment (or any other source) subjugated or even impacted by their opting out of vaccination?
I'm not sure where you got that notion.
Gosh, I don't know, maybe because the entire history of RFRA et al is that the sincerity of the religious belief is assumed, and the burden of proof is on the Gov't if it wishes to claim the belief is not sincere?
Don't you pretend to be a lawyer? Aren't you supposed to know something about the law before you shoot your mouth off about it?
But it doesn't matter, because there's no actual justification for the mandate:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/
Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States
As you are at least as likely to be infected with Covid from a "vaccinated" person as one who hasn't gotten the shot, you have absolutely no business of any sort demanding that someone else get the shot.
Stop being a religious lunatic, and start following the science. You're worried about Covid? Get the shot. The STFU about it
Let me rephrase my statement: I'm not sure where you got that notion.
As a lawyer, I know that people who merely make vague allusions to "the law" are generally full of it. But to be less passive-aggressive about it: you're wrong. The federal government has the burden under RFRA of establishing the compelling government interest/least restrictive means prongs. We know that because it's in the statute. (42 U.S.C. § 2000bb–1(b)).
But the question of whether government conduct actually burdens sincere religious beliefs has no similar burden-shifting language. That can be raised as a "claim or defense" by an individual, and the burden remains with him. E.g.:
Nesbeth v. United States, 870 A.2d 1193, 1196 (D.C. 2005)
>y a preponderance of the evidenceIn practice, this is tr
Ouch. Mike dropped.
I don't have to disprove anything. I'm just in your shop trying to buy a cake like the last guy that walked in there. You wanna tell me why instead I have to go to the back of the bus?
You understand that's not how any of the sex-discrimination cases happened, right?
Because government has the honor of deciding religion is a quaint lifestyle choice? And it may shove it off into a corner of your life, and you may not follow it when doing important things like putting food in your mouth, or a roof over your head?
Anyway, it was about the freedom of speech portion. Remember, the card carrying members of the ACLU got artistic freedom of expression classified as speech, over the objections of many.
And properly so.
Because it's my shop, not yours?
Is Google allowed to deplatform me? How abotu Twitter? Facebook? Can they take away my ability to post my thoughts to their site?
Yes?
Then there's no conceivable reason why I can't refuse to make you that cake.
(Note, the reverse is not true: The fact that someone has a religious freedom right not to do something doesn't give FB a non-religious right to do it.)
You're saying you don't have to prove a point of law in court?
I'm saying that you don't understand the law. Your statement of religious belief is not a point of law that must (or even can) be proven in court. It is an opinion that must simply be accepted as your belief. The exception is if I can prove (and the burden is on me to prove it) that your statement is insincere.
As Mr. Nieporent quotes the RFRA above:
"An individual asserting a claim or defense under the RFRA must show by a preponderance of the evidence that the government action in question would substantially burden the sincere exercise of his religion,.."
The plaintiff has to first prove that an aspect of the sincere exercise of his religion is the consistent rejection of vaccines. Otherwise this is just another F*ck Joe Biden couched as religious dogma
I remember the part of the constitution that protects an individual's right to practice their religion absent some governmental test to prove its validity. I'm less clear where the section is describing your right to compel someone else to get a medical treatment is tho?
So the right to practice religion is whatever the adherent believes they heard that day. Damn the wedding cake I just ordered
To the extent one might view the works of the apostle Paul as divinely-inspired religious instruction, then see 1 Corinthians 6:19-20.
Ah, one of the verses people love to miss-use to judge people who don't do what they do.
"My rights under the 14th amendment are subjugated because of this?"
What "right"? The right to be a bully?
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/
Increases in COVID-19 are unrelated to levels of vaccination across 68 countries and 2947 counties in the United States
There is absolutely no public health justification for a Covid "vaccine" mandate.
As you are at least as likely to be infected with Covid from a "vaccinated" person as one who hasn't gotten the shot, you have absolutely no business of any sort demanding that someone else get the shot.
Stop being a religious lunatic, and start following the science. You're worried about Covid? Get the shot. The STFU about it
"Alright, men, we're going to take that hill! Let's go!"
"Sorry, Captain, God has told me not to. He also told Jones and Flaherty the same thing. Please process our exemption forms and be sure that you grant at least one of them so that we know you took them seriously."
Judge Reed O'Connor (N.D. Tex.)
'nuff said.
Next to Waco district they are the worst
Now do Hawaii.
No thank you. Waco (WD) is quite enough for me.
Nonetheless, the Navy's record is pure US Navy.
It is kind of remarkable that a wide variety of people, not just lawyers from the district, or lawyers generally, know a particular district judge because they know exactly how he rules in cases with a partisan political valence. And while right leaning lawyers might praise his “brilliant” legal analysis, deep down they know he’s a hack because that’s why they forum shop there. They’re not looking for a brilliant judge, they’re looking for the one to give them a TRO to halt any policy they want. In a sense they respect him as much as people on the left do.
The funny thing is….he doesn’t even get paid more than other district judges to make this his reputation.
"he doesn’t even get paid more than other district judges to make this his reputation."
He has a life time appointment. Your and other's lawyer's opinion that "he’s a hack" don't matter much.
But you might actually put in a line or two to illustrate why he is wrong.
I'll point out that he isn't striking the vaccine mandate here, that remains in force, and I think it's clear the armed forces do have the authority to order service members to get a vaccine, any vaccine.
But the issue is whether the Navy has to have a process for issuing religious based vaccine exemptions. The Navy seems to agree that it does, but it seems it only has a process for issuing religious based vaccine exemption denials. The court said that that doesn't meet their obligation under the law.
That seems like a reasonable conclusion here, even if you do think the law is an ass.
"'nuff said."
Welcome to 2017-2021.
Do you think the venues were randomly chosen by Resistance! lawyers?
How does applying strict scrutiny under RFRA differ from applying strict scrutiny under the Free Exercise clause? If I recall, the state won many cases during the Sherbert era (feeble in fact). But did SCOTUS strengthen strict scrutiny under RFRA in Hobby Lobby (I can't remember)?
I think I found my answer in a footnote in Hobby Lobby:
I'm not sure how that footnote affects whether Goldman ought to apply to RFRA in this case.
Didn't the Navy discharge some midshipmen from Annapolis in the 90s for lying about their weight during their physicals? They really ought to institute similar proceedings for the flagrant dishonesty on display here.
Which group?
1. The SEAL who claimed that he was divinely counseled?
2. Or the Navy weenees who claim to give each case a personalized review, but where step 1 of the process is to start discharge paperwork?
Indeed. Here's the issue. In theory, military members are eligible for religious exemptions. 12,000 have applied for such an exemption. Yet not one has received the exemption. Not a single one.
So why don't you identify those religious traditions that have elicited exemptions in the past, then examine the 12000to see how many should be granted them now. That will give you an idea of how big a problem this "really" is.
The government cannot maintain sham processes that are designed to be safeguards for constitutional rights and be consistent with the rule of law. Glad courts see it that way too.
Eugene Volokh, please tell us how online attacks such as doxing, targeted harassment towards an individual, webpages designed to harm or torment someone (created by malicious individuals), pile on doxing or harassment, etc... is in any way different from physical assault? Why should the former be considered (by you) as "Free Speech" but the latter is considered a crime? What is the actual different between the two?
Online harassment is assault using technology. Simple as that.
I appreciate your comments on penguin lust, which is beautiful and natural. But today's topic is nun-beating. (See https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2ZNtmUXgAAJKpE.jpg, if you must.)
My favorite of all Bloom County strips. I used to quote it often...till I came to understand that no one was getting the reference (and people were starting to wonder why I was talking so much about nun-beating).
Sad that an entire generation is growing up without Bloom County (and Calvin and Hobbes).
Oh I get the penguin lust ref. Too funny.
How about standing on a soapbox and speaking the same words to a crowd? Does that strike you as being the same as physical assault?
Eugene please respond to my comments and concerns, rather than deflecting blame.
Why should the First Amendment be read and interpreted so expansively to prevent the entire range of human conduct from criminal or civil prosecution, regardless of how malicious the harasser or stalker's behavior is and regardless of how big the disruption to the victim's life?
Why have you never taken into consideration the malicious of cyberstalkers and the impact to the lives of victims in any of your analyses?
Why is it so difficult to establishing some basic guidelines to protect Americans online and keep people free from harm, like targeted harassment of private, non-public individuals, and protection from mentally-ill psychopaths who have nothing better to do than to ruin someone.
As shown in countries that have already passed stringent cyberbullying laws, like the EU (including the Right to be Forgotten, a wonderful piece of court ruling that respects human privacy), internet regulation is not inconsistent with free speech and expression of ideas. If America were to outlaw doxing, cyberstalking, and cyber harassment today, the internet would do just fine, and legitimate free expression would continue to thrive, but illegal harmful harassing content would be curbed, making everyone safer.
Is the right of a cyberstalker to destroy someone else's life so damn precious that he is immune from all civil or criminal liability just because his malicious course of conduct involves speech in a superficial sense?
Eugene, how would you feel if, say, a malicious bully at school made a website about your children or family to mock and harass them? Do you think this behavior is acceptable, or have you never considered the impact to the victims of malicious online behavior in the first place? What is happening to America when Free Speech has so distorted people's sense of decency that straight up personal attacks can be made online and the perpetrator gets to say "this is my god given right", and courts say "yeah he's protected by Free Speech." Maybe "Free Speech" needs a new interpretation in the age of the internet.
Government empowered to silence people has a vastly longer and nastier pedigree.
Such a shame if one generation full of itself undoes it.
See also intrusive, warrantless spying because of prosaic crime enforcement, when three billion continue to live the dream, not merely having to imagine, a boot stepping on their face, forever.
No, government is here to regulate some illegal conduct like online harms. That's their job. The world is better off with harmful internet conduct curbed. No government is perfect, but it beats unrestricted free speech that causes suicides and social violence. You can't have no regulation for something like the internet, because all the criminals will gravitate towards it.
Your argument against government regulation is preposterous. You're basically saying why have laws at all? Why not make murder legal? Go live in the rainforest if you hate government.
Maybe you should suck it up and grow up.
It shouldn't. Just the speech.
Why are you ironically harassing and assaulting us with this obsession of yours? Can you not at least be funny while doing this?
As I understand it, the basic Navy premise is that vaccination is needed to protect the service member and to decrease the random chance of an infected SEAL making a team undeployable.
Given today's news that our twice vaccinated, once boosted, always PPE compliant SecDef is COVID positive, mean that the NAVY policy may have some logical flaws?
No because his risk of death, hospitalization, or severe illness are significantly decreased compared to non-vaccinated individuals.
There is no rigorous evidence on decreased risk of death or hospitalization (certainly not from the Phase III trials on which the FDA authorization was given).
Why is the vaccine worshiping religion privileged by the constitution over any other?
Naturally you won't find the evidence with your head up your ass. Try removing it and paying attention to the news for the last, oh, eight months or so.
The truth is so easily and readily available, that the only possible conclusion from your remarks is that you're deliberately full of shit.
Dude, you've got your anti-vax talking points backwards. The FDA approval was given precisely because the vaccines were effective at reducing incidence of serious and disease and death. The anti-vax talking point is that they weren't (yet) proven effective at reducing risk of infection and transmission. Sheesh. Get it together!
jb, Jason have you actually read any of the Phase III trial documents?
Those trials were not powered to provide meaningful information on death reductions, because doing so would require an inordinate number of subjects for the low death rate.
Crass insults do not an intelligent point make.
The risk of death, hospitalization, or severe illness with Covid is already really low without the vaccine as well. Like really really low....
(No I am not against the vaccine. I got it. If you want it get it. If you want boosted go get another one. If not, that is your choice. You have to live with the risk of either you dodged a bullet by not taking some stupid experimental ineffective vaccine or the risk of dying in an overcrowded hospital when the vaccine would have only meant having the equivalent of a mild cold.)
Hospitals are bursting at the moment, risking needless deaths due to inability to properly care. This has been the problem all along.
Always has been. Always will.
I noted the fraudulent conversion in rhetoric to "It's about saving you!" independent of this, about four months after this all started.
You should get vaccinated on thr off chance you are one of the rare ones needing hospitalization, because that small chance times the entire population, is a lot of people compared to hospital spaces.
Krayt
January.4.2022 at 7:15 am
Flag Comment Mute User
Hospitals are bursting at the moment, risking needless deaths due to inability to properly care. This has been the problem all along.
Krayt 's response - "Always has been. Always will."
I for one like to compare apples to apples and see comprehensive presentation of the data - that being said, with covid hospitalization rates, the CDC removed any comparable data of hospitalization rates / ICU beds etc for periods prior to 2020. I recall seeing numerous news stories in the "days of yore" of flu patients in hospital hallways due to lack of rooms available .
Our Most Reliable Pandemic Number Is Losing Meaning
A new study suggests that almost half of those hospitalized with COVID-19 have mild or asymptomatic cases.
When you've got a disease that is often asymptomatic, and you test everybody entering the hospital for any reason, you're going to find a lot of people who are there for reasons other than the infection your test finds.
re: "Hospitals are bursting at the moment"
Uhm, no they're not. Most the this latest wave of covid infections are folks with no or mild symptoms who are succesfully treated at home. There are also some already in the hospital for serious conditions who are also discovered to have covid but they were already in the hospital. Their vaccination (or lack) had no measurable impact on capacity.
Rossami - fwiw - krayts response was basically mocking the claim that covid is causing the hospitals to overflow and the media/cdc / hypercovid safetyists providing data to show the capicity factors without reference to capacity for periods prior to covid ie pre 2019 numbers.
As a living example of vaccine failure, I can tell you that your objection is pretty meaningless. If you get COVID bad enough to show symptoms, trust me, you will know it, and it will take you out of action for a period of time. The SecDef isn't running on all cylinders, that's for sure. If we had a military crisis and our leadership's head was full of the "COVID fog", you bet that would be a problem. A big one.
The fact that the SecDef is literally a caricature of meaningless COVID over-reaction with his masking, face shields, vaccines, boosters, social distancing, etc. makes all this very relevant in the court of public opinion.
Well I agree that the risks from covid go down after vaccination, which is why I got vaccinated.
But the issue here isn't the utility of vaccinations, the issue here is whether the Navy has to follow the law and issue exemptions to their policy based on sincerely held religious belief. The Navy is obviously not following the law, but using boilerplate to reject every application.
If your argument is that the Navy has no obligation to follow the law then be clear about it. But just saying that vaccines are great as an argument is praising penguin lust, as awesome as it is.
" the risks from covid go down after vaccination"
Unfortunately that is not true for all classes of patients.
According to
Schmidt AL, et al. Ann Oncol. 2021;doi:10.1016/j.annonc.2021.12.006.
In patients with hematologic malignancies, "COVID-19 severity was comparable between vaccinated patients who developed breakthrough infections and unvaccinated patients with cancer even after controlling for potential confounding factors."
LawTalkingGuy
January.3.2022 at 11:27 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
"No because his risk of death, hospitalization, or severe illness are significantly decreased compared to non-vaccinated individuals."
A) the risk of hospitalization, severe illness or death is already very low for this age group, so the vaccine accomplishes much less than is claimed.
B) Navy personnel, like most of the military has fitness levels much higher than the general population, along with lacking obesity, as such, the risk level is very low to begin with.
Combining those two factors, the risk level is low to extremely low,
Is summary, everyone demanding vaxing for this subgroup of the population is throwing a massive hissing fit for something that is going to have near zero effect on the course of this pandemic.
Joe_dallas : "Combining those two factors, the risk level is low to extremely low"
On joining the Army National Guard, I was required to be vaccinated against plus-minus nine diseases, as are servicemen today. Have you examined the "risk level" involved with all of those?
No doubt you will - but only after your political handler programs "outrage" in your mind over those vaccines as well. Here's something I find amusing: The people who suddenly became anti-vaxx overnight and now screech about "freedom" are also the most docile and malleable sheep imaginable, slavishly responsive to their master's command.
Thus we have history's first pro-disease party, dedicated 100% to the support of covid: Relentlessly lying about its reach & effect, demonizing those in the front ranks against it, fighting every single measure to combat it. After all, given the state of today's right-wing base, there's gotta be votes doing that, right?
GRB -
There two separate and distinct issues
A) whether the Navy can compell personnel to get vaccinated - that is the legal question
B) whether the vaccines will have any effect on the pandemic.
You response with the lack of any supporting data you provided, including the political rant, indicates that you are very ill informed / misinformed and very little understanding of the effectiveness of the vaccines, especially with the subgroup.
"The people who suddenly became anti-vaxx overnight "
Who is that, can you give an example?
I don't think that happened, except in the certain sense where far-left nut jobs suddenly declare that they have changed the definition of words for political purposes, as usual. For example going from "anti-vaxx" meaning opposing the use of all vaccines generally, to meaning opposing mandatory forced vaccination or any particular vaccine. In this way you can "become" something overnight even though nothing has changed other than a declaration from propagandists.
M L : "...to meaning opposing mandatory forced vaccination...."
Does someone want to tell ML he's dealt with vaccines his entire life? His parents did, and probably grandparents too. Also his siblings, aunts, uncles, and cousins all. His coworkers, friends, acquaintances. All the people on the street with him - in front, behind, to either side.
And yet suddenly poor little ML discovers vaccine mandates are a affront to all he holds dear - this just after his handler plugged a cable into the download port at the base of his skull, did a wipe of all previous vaccine thoughts, and programed "outrage" as the replacement. And it happened overnight!
Funny thing is, not long ago nobody believed mandates would even be necessary. People yearned for tools against covid. Anti-vaxxers were a tiny handful of freaks spread evenly across the ideological spectrum. But then Right-wing leaders decided there were votes in covid lies and disinformation. A concentrated campaign by their entire propaganda machine followed until - voilà! - the entire party morphed into anti-vaxx. Overnight, no less.
Go back five years and try to imagine ML spouting the below drivel about this case - a handful of anti-vaxxers in the military trying to own the libs by refusing a vaccine - and using hypocritical religious bullshit as their excuse no less....
"They want to weed out any who seem less submissive and more independent minded, it's very important for the agenda going forward"
It's to ML's credit that I just don't see it. The poor guy had to be led to the edge of this cliff - him and countless other lemmings.
No substantive response? Anti-vaxxers, meaning those against all vaccines generally, are still pretty even across the spectrum and relatively few, about the same as before. Those opposed to particular relatively new vaccines, or just against vaccine mandates either generally or in new unprecedented forms, are a different category.
LTG,
With respect to Omicron, you have no evidentiary basis to make that claim. The reduced probability is due to the reduce virulence of this strain.
Don,
What do you claim here? Per my understanding :
(a) People in the hospital today have the Omicron strain by a large margin
(b) People in the hospital today are unvaccinated by a large margin.
Are either of those things untrue? If they aren't, that's plenty of evidentiary basis for LawTalkingGuy's statement.
Your (b) is largely untrue. Some people in the hospital today are unvaccinated but many are fully vaccinated. They are also (mostly) in the hospital for serious conditions and are simply discovered to also have covid while they are there.
Note that you are correct that your data below is from more virulent strains. The omicron variant is far more mild. Note also that you are much much more likely to be hospitalized for reasons completely unrelated to covid (car accidents, kidney disease and cancer still exist) and you may simply be discovered to have covid while being treated for those other conditions. The data below has been frequently misinterpreted because people forget all the other reasons people go to hospitals.
Rossami : "Your (b) is largely untrue. Some people in the hospital today are unvaccinated but many are fully vaccinated. They are also (mostly) in the hospital for serious conditions and are simply discovered to also have covid while they are there"
Aside from assigning a specific value to my "large margin", the statement is either true or false. For instance, on 21Dec the Governor of Maryland, Larry Hogan (R) said the unvaccinated make up more than 75% of covid hospitalizations in his state - this despite 90% of Maryland adults having received at least one vaccination shot. This "large margin" is similar to other reported accounts.
So either you have countering information or you don't. Saying "some people in the hospital today are unvaccinated" is a jokey understatement. Saying "many are fully vaccinated" is true, but ignores the fact that the unvaccinated are represented well beyond their proportional numbers. By a large margin, in fact.
Also, I don't think hospital wards are choked with covid patients because of "car accidents" or really bad hangnails. Who do you think is fooled by that nonsense? Lastly, the omicron variant is reported as milder (thank God), which certainty covers a lot of cases outside of hospital care. But for those in, every report I've seen shows very large majorities of the unvaccinated. By a large margin in fact.
grb,
It is true that in the US more than 70% of COVID-19 reported cases are Omicron.
Your statement (b) may be true somewhere, but it is not true in Denmark and UAE both of which have very high vaccination and booster rates and a huge surge in hospital cases of COVID-19.
I'd look around for counterexamples before you stating generalities so confidently.
Also true, in South Africa with only 26% vaccinated population, the Omicron surge was over in one month and the case fatality rate dropped from 2% to 0.3%.
As I said be careful about generalities.s
This is the most recent thing I could find, a report from the Washington State Department of Health, dated 29Dec21:
12-34yrs, unvaccinated :
3 times more likely to get covid than the fully vaccinated
12 times more likely to require hospitalization than the fully vaccinated
35-64yrs, unvaccinated :
4 times more likely to get covid than the fully vaccinated
18 times more likely to require hospitalization than the fully vaccinated
+64yrs, unvaccinated :
7 times more likely to get covid than the fully vaccinated
13 times more likely to require hospitalization than the fully vaccinated
15 times more likely to die
(Of course much of this data probably reflects the delta strain as opposed to its successor)
https://www.doh.wa.gov/Portals/1/Documents/1600/coronavirus/data-tables/421-010-CasesInNotFullyVaccinated.pdf
As I wrote above, look further than the tip of your nose.
Yes. There remains no rational basis for vaccine mandates anywhere.
Might want to tell that to George Washington (the guy quoted in the first footnote).
Luckily, the Navy isn't as innumerate as you are.
Good point
In the grand scheme of this pandemic, with the exception of the vaccine, all the mitigation protocols have been basically futile. The vaccine, while techincally a vaccine, has proven to be only partially effective and only marginally effective after 6 or so months. The vaccines have reduced the severity of the illness, so they have had some benefit. Though the vaccines have had little / much lower effect on case rates and transmission.
Covid is a respiratory virus, as such, the vaccines will never be as effective as other vaccines such as polio, small pox, measles, etc.
Eventually 90+% of the population is going to catch covid, so other than a reduction of the severity of the illness for those at risk, the vaccines are accomplishing far less than believed.
Joe,
The breakthrough rate for Omicron is extremely high and the susceptibility to infection seems as high in South Africa with low vaccination rate as in Denmark with high vax and high booster rates.
It is the case that hospitalizations are roughly 3x lower than infection rates. Unfortunately not all countries make those data available
Don - I agree that your comments. Likewise the observation in your comments is consistent with the history of almost all respiratory virus pandemics,
As is typical, the virus mutates to less severe strains, and eventually most of the population gets the virus. The vaccines have provided some relief, primarily in reduced severity, but in the long term, natural immunity is going to win the day. At least until a vaccine is developed that is as effective as other vaccines such as polio, measles or small pox vaccines.
Joe_dallas : "At least until a vaccine is developed that is as effective as other vaccines such as polio, measles or small pox vaccines"
Of course the measles vaccine (for example) is only 93% effective. That measles has been virtually eliminated is because a mandate resulted in vaccination rates approaching 100%
That's gonna be hard to achieve with any covid vaccine, given today's Right's dedication to supporting the disease. Is the typical right-winger supposed to suddenly pay attention to the science at some future date - after being instructed to ignore all findings, reports and studies for months onto years?
These days even Trump gets booed when he (tentatively) tells his supporters to get vaccinated. That's what happens when an entire ideology's propaganda machine focuses on a pro-disease message.
GRB -grb
January.4.2022 at 12:10 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
Joe_dallas : "At least until a vaccine is developed that is as effective as other vaccines such as polio, measles or small pox vaccines"
GRB 's comment - "Of course the measles vaccine (for example) is only 93% effective. That measles has been virtually eliminated is because a mandate resulted in vaccination rates approaching 100%"
GRB - are you that seriously illinformed on the the subject matter.
Measles is not nearly as contagious as covid,
the measles vaccine effectiveness is approx 93 -97% for life compared to the covid vaccine which is less than 50% effective after 6 months and may not be at all effective for the omicron variant.
You do like to spew, Joe. Nothing you said changes my points above:
(1) No vaccine is perfectly effective
(2) The most effective still need broad vaccination rates to suppress a disease.
(3) That's impossible when the sheep of one party are told to be anti-vaxx.
One of the regular commenters here was pushing anti-vaxx agitprop in a thread a while back. He did comment after comment giving reasons while people shouldn't get vaccinated until suddenly the well ran dry. Did he give up, satisfied he'd done his part for the "cause"? Of course not - he pushed out one more: A person getting vaccinated here might prevent a more needy Ghanaian from getting the shot.
Now I can guarantee with 100% assurance that commenter never worried about the unequal / unfair distribution of resources between American & Ghana before. He never will again. But Iike you, he belongs to the pro-disease party and it is very demanding of its disciples. He had to give a 150% effort to talk people out of vaccination because that's what he's been told to do. Like you.
Think all that effort will go unappreciated if an improved vaccine is developed? Not a bit. You should have more faith in your skill as a propagandistic hack....
GRB,
What is it with you having to go on a partisan rant filled with insults every time you comment.
Even when you have something of substance to contribute, you lower your credibility with "the RANT."
Don,
Did you know multiple Republican governors are now paying people to be unvaccinated? If someone is fired for cause because they refused to follow their company's vaccination policy, that person now receives unemployment insurance. Meanwhile, the governor of Oklahoma fired the head of his state's National Guard, Maj. Gen. Michael Thompson, because he intended to follow the Pentagon's vaccine policy. The governor of Florida pushed out his former surgeon general in favor of someone who promotes ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine as effective covid treatments. Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene just lost her twitter privileges for lying about “extremely high amounts of Covid vaccine deaths.” Sarah Palin boasts this on Fox News: “I am one of those White, common-sense conservatives, I believe in science, and I have not taken the shot." By now, anti-vaxx agitprop is common on Fox News (the company's own personnel policies notwithstanding).
What the hell do you think is going on here, Don? The Right has systematically lied about covid's effects, its extents, its statistics of infections & deaths, its treatments & the justifications behind them, the difference between real & quack medical science, the safety & effectiveness of vaccines. They launched bizarre fatwahs against Fauci and Big Bird. They've fought to ban the anti-covid policies of private companies (as with the owners of cruise ships), or local politicians (as with popular safety measures of local school boards).
1. Are all these isolated incidents, or do they reflected unified policy?
2. If the latter, what policy unites the examples here?
3. What the hell do you think is going on?
GRB,
I don't care about pitiful US politics.
Well how can he leave the RANT out when that's the whole point?
Whatever small little substantive nugget he may throw in there is just the hook for the RANT about how horrible conservatives are.
joe_dallas I think you've muted nearly everyone in the blog. Aren't you quickly running out of content to read here?
“Measles is not nearly as contagious as covid.”
My lord, you haven’t a clue what you’re talking about.
Measles is possibly the most infectious virus known, and certainly the most infectious disease that you’ve heard of. If you Google “measles infectiousness covid,” you’ll find articles fretting that Omicron might be “as infectious as measles,” or “second only to measles.”
That you’ve managed to miss something so basic means you really need to STFU about epidemiology.
jjrzw72
January.4.2022 at 11:02 pm
Flag Comment Mute User
“Measles is not nearly as contagious as covid.”
JJrzw - that was my mistake - meant to say that measles were infectious.
My primary point was that the measles vaccine was very effective 93% + and near lifetime immunity vs the covid vaccines which are only 80-90% effective for 6 months , then 50% to 60% after 6 months and declining.
Does the fact that parachutes sometimes fail mean that the military should change policy and not require them for people that jump out of planes?
That's nothing; did you know that there are no peer reviewed studies showing that parachutes protect people who jump out of airplanes? (Don't believe all the elitist liberal eggheads who tell you that they work.)
It's even worse. Often parachutes are only approved for emergency use. How can you trust them given that ?!?
The litmus test of blind obedience to the communist ideology. Don't need a jab to be a member of the armed services, jab does not suspend First Amendment. Just the jewish game of chipping away at the bill of rights until the four legged animals are all back in the barnyard. See how the jewish game uses the military to promote the deviant agenda? Get the jab or get out. Love trannies or get out. Approve of gay sex or get out. So easy to do with military authority on naive little kids who think they are serving their country. Quite sad actually.
Is there a betting line on whether this decision will stand on appeal? I'd like to wager that it won't be too long before it is overturned and these brave patriots will be given the choice of getting out forthwith or getting vaccinated forthwith. Too bad, since the military has undoubtedly invested a substantial amount in training them and presumably they are capable of performing their duties when they comply with lawful orders.
Fifth Circuit did stay the OSHA mandate though which is likely to die now at the Supreme Court. I think you'd not be completely foolish to think this one could make it there also.
There is a pretty big difference between the two cases, IMHO. The OSHA mandate, forcing employers to require the vaccine, is different from the employer, in this case the US Navy, requiring its employees to be vaccinated.
"...The Navy even awarded one Plaintiff the Joint Service Commendation Medal for "safely navigating restricted movement and distancing requirements" under COVID-19 protocol in early 2020...."
The fuck?!? Wow. What an honor. Am I the only person who find this analogous to a participation award we give to non-athletic children?
My dad avoided dying on D-Day, because on his final rehearsal jump, he landed in a tree and dislocated his shoulder. Should I be petitioning the Army for a posthumous award for him, for "Managing to avoid the ground on a parachute jump?"
I wonder if the plantiffs will ultimately prevail, if they have been willing to take all the other required vaccines? (I know nothing about the making of the handful of other required vaccines, and if those contain any traces of animals, were developed with fetal stem cells, etc...so Covid Vaxxs might be distinguishable on these grounds.)
Most influenza vaccines use egg proteins. They're actually grown inside the egg, which is pretty cool.
Yeah, that's one cringey medal, I noted that too. Off-dah. I "safely navigate restricted movement and distancing requirements" every time I park my car. Where's my dmn medal?
I call "injecting trace amounts of animal cells" drinking milk, smelling animals inadvertently, or even just existing.
You shoot milk and scented air bubbles directly into your veins with a needle?
You might not know this, but "injecting" doesn't only mean with a syringe into your veins. Particularly embarrassing for you in that the vaccines they are complaining about aren't injected into a vein.
Not supposed to be, anyway. Accidentally doing so might be the reason for the occasional heart problems being seen. There's a technique for avoiding any chance of doing it, and I noticed that the nurse who gave me Moderna didn't follow it.
It's cases like this that remind me why I'd make a terrible lawyer. I find the opinion entirely convincing on first principles. I don't really care what other courts may have said or to analyze previous opinions to see whether they are relevant. This strikes me as a clear violation of law and the constitution, enough said. (Which of course happens to be my preferred result.)
The district court´s opinion nowhere discusses Parker v. Levy, 417 U.S. 733 (1974), whereby First Amendment rights in the military context are circumscribed. ¨While the members of the military are not excluded from the protection granted by the First Amendment, the different character of the military community and of the military mission requires a different application of those protections. The fundamental necessity for obedience, and the consequent necessity for imposition of discipline, may render permissible within the military that which would be constitutionally impermissible outside it.¨ Id., at 758.
Indeed; Goldman v. Weinberger is the case that basically applies the logic of Parker v. Levy to the Free Exercise Clause, so I would have thought that the court should have addressed it.
That is a glaring omission.
But what you allude to in the post is the more interesting question of whether Goldman and Parker still apply in a RFRA challenge. On its face, RFRA makes no exception for military laws. I suppose in the military context, the Govt. has an easier time showing that it has a "compelling" interest. In any, case a question worthy of discussion.
Representing the Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, and Protestant branches of Christianity, Plaintiffs object to receiving the COVID-19 vaccine based on their religious beliefs. These beliefs fall into the following categories: (1) opposition to abortion and the use of aborted fetal cell lines in development of the vaccine; (2) belief that modifying one's body is an afront to the Creator; (3) direct, divine instruction not to receive the vaccine; and (4) opposition to injecting trace amounts of animal cells into one's body. Plaintiffs' beliefs about the vaccine are undisputedly sincere, and it is not the role of this Court to determine their truthfulness or accuracy…
Undisputedly sincere?
(1) What other medical treatments that were developed using fetal stem cell lines have they rejected in the past? Do they know which medicines and treatments are included in that?
(2) How many of them have tattoos?
(3) As others have pointed out, how is it that they believe that God is directly telling them not to get the vaccine? If I claim that God told me that I should drive 100 mph down the highway, is a court supposed to assume that I was sincere in that belief?
(4) Trace amounts of animal cells? What are they talking about? Why is this a thing? What other vaccines manufactured using "trace amounts of animals cells" have they rejected in the past?
This deference that people want courts to give for people to be completely irrational just because they call it religion is way out of hand. Justice Scalia was actually right in Smith.
To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself.
I think in context "undisputedly" means "not disputed by the Navy."
If one side chooses not to dispute one point, it is not up to the court to decide whether there is an issue there.
BL,
"I think in context "undisputedly" means "not disputed by the Navy."
You have that precisely correct.
Yes. Undisputedly and indisputably are different words.
I think in context "undisputedly" means "not disputed by the Navy."
I suppose that is a reasonable reading of that the plaintiff lawyer said. But does that mean that it is true? Is the Navy not disputing the sincerity of their religious beliefs? Or perhaps that is part of why they are being denied an exemption? What evidence do we have from statements from the Navy regarding how they view the sincerity of the religious claims?
To permit this would be to make the professed doctrines of religious belief superior to the law of the land, and in effect to permit every citizen to become a law unto himself.
This bears repeating. I have not heard anyone offer a refutation.
belief that modifying one's body is an afront (sic) to the Creator;
Do these guys shave or clip their fingernails? Do they take any medicine at all?
Fucking moronic. And no, I don't believe for a second that most of them sincerely believe any of that crap.
" I have not heard anyone offer a refutation."
The refutation is that Congress, not the DoD, is the one that makes the law of the land. And Congress decided, when it passed RFRA, that religious beliefs and practices should not be impinged by federal law unless there is a really good reason to do so.
So Mr. bernard11 is correct. What anyone chooses to believe is the law of the land
I am Catholic and I did serve way back when but I seriously do not recall in all my years that the Bible had any mention of vaccinations nor did the Church ever speak out against them that was communicated to us as children; I did a few years in a Catholic schools complete with the stereotype nuns using rules and pointers who had swings a baseball player would be proud of.
There are very few religious declarations that exist in text that could apply to complying with rules set down by government; I can think of grooming and dress standards; but I am pretty sure vaccinations were not part of them.
This is basically their only avenue to argue against it. It'd be better if they just came out as the cowards they are and refused and were summarily discharged.
Their idiocy shouldn't have a place in the military anyway. Plenty of other people that can take their place.
Effectively they are claiming they are against any knowledge gained from experiments on aborted stem cell lines done in the 50’s and 60’s.
I've got news for them, Mr. Gwarrior because I worked in biomedical research for several years...there are many drugs that these people and their families have been taking for many years to stay alive that were derived purely from previous stem cell research
On the one hand, it should be pretty obvious that no one owes you a living, and if you're not willing to abide by your employer's regulations, then you shouldn't expect them to keep you around. Freedom means free, from both sides of a voluntary association.
On the other, it should also be pretty obvious that any employer which lies to their employees about a regulation deserves all the bad press and bad reputation they've earned.
Based on Eugene Volokh's view, if a vindictive cyberstalker made a blog about a private individual disclosing some private facets of that person's life, purely to torment and harass them, cause them emotional and financial damage, this action would NOT be legally actionable, because 1) the stalker's words are "precious" free speech and add value to the "marketplace of ideas", and 2) the stalker made a website about the person, not talking directly to the person, so "one to many" speech is protected, regardless of content, intent, course of conduct, malice, etc....
Does this logic sound right to you? Do you really think America should be a country where people can just shit on each other online with no regulation and no accountability? I know Google would love it, but it harms everyone else. And it benefits Eugene too, he takes money from Google to keep the dangerous "status quo".
Yes. You, on the other hand, sound mentally unbalanced.
The military, and special units at that, present about the strongest possible case for a vaccine mandate, and about the most they should be hoping to get in the way of a religious accommodation would be an honorable discharge or transfer to a desk job.
But, still, I guess the government does kind of deserve to lose, anyway, if they couldn't even be bothered to pretend they were complying with the law.
What law? Did you read the OP? The opinion is kinda bunk.
Sure, I read the OP. I think the extent of any religious accommodation would properly be very limited, and said as much.
But, if they're required to consider applications for religious exemptions, (By their own express policy, they are.) they have to actually consider them.
"To adjudicate a religious accommodation request, the Navy uses a six-phase, fifty-step process. Although "all requests for accommodation of religious practices are assessed on a case-by-case basis," Phase 1 of the Navy guidance document instructs an administrator to update a prepared disapproval template with the requester's name and rank.. Based on this boilerplate rejection, Plaintiffs believe that this process is "pre-determined" and sidesteps the individualized review required by law…. {The record overwhelmingly demonstrates that the Navy's religious accommodation process is an exercise in futility.} …"
First, as Prof. Volokh noted, there is some pretty good precedent that that process is not required by law or the constitution (which are the issues at bar).
Second, preparing a template as part of the staffing process doesn't predetermine anything. In my org, staffing packages often are of the form 'If you approve, no action (or initial the cover page) and if you disapprove, sign this notification here.'
The combination of the prefilled form, and 100% rejection rate, certainly suggest a predetermined outcome. Don't promise a review and then not do it. And they are somewhat undermined by the fact that they ARE handing out medical exemptions, rather than just telling people who can't get vaccinated for medical reasons, "Fine, we're not holding it against you, but you've got to be reassigned to a job where you don't need the vaccine." But they didn't do that, they kept their positions where coming down with Covid could compromise deployability.
To be clear, my position isn't particularly sympathetic to these soldiers. I think the best outcome they could be entitled to if they had a valid claim is an honorable discharge or reassignment to a desk job. The vaccination requirement is a perfectly legitimate military requirement, in exactly the way it isn't legitimate for the government to mandate it in the private sector.
But that doesn't mean the Navy is actually taking their own procedures seriously.
Don't promise a review and then not do it.
Again, that is not the argument before the court.
And I can easily see a scenario where a bunch of insincere religious exemptions were so deemed, leading to a 100% rate.
Sure, but 12K reviews and not one exemption? At that point that they're only pretending to do the reviews seems a pretty viable conclusion.
Since none of those 12K were sincere, why should any of them have gotten the exemption?
12k, and you're absolutely certain not one was sincere? Seriously?
Yes.
Sarcastro. I might agree with you if they did not have a process and just said it was required. However by having a process that is deliberately designed to fail, they have brazenly lied to both their own people and to the court.
The 100% failure rate is a strong indication that something might be off by itself (how can you receive hundreds of applications but not one actually is granted?), but the description is so brazen that I would consider it absurdist comedy if it was fictional.
"The Vogons had a religious exemption process, but the process was 50 steps long and step one including pre-filling out the rejection form, so that wasn't a practical option for our intrepid heroes. " That's a valid line from a Hitchhiker's Guide book. If a basic description of your process sounds like a joke, you have done something wrong.
'Navy didn't follow it's internal regs' is a different cause of action than is before the court.
The 100% failure rate is a strong indication that something might be off by itself
Or the group applying has something else going on. Like lack of sincerity.
Which the Navy did not dispute here.
The Navy allowed medical exemptions, which proves that the Navy does not think a 100% vaccination rate is essential. Based on the numbers quoted in the decision the Navy might be better off eliminating the medical exemptions: "Whereas there are only seven permanent medical exemptions for all Navy and Reserve personnel from the COVID-19 immunization duty, there are more than three thousand pending requests for a religious exemption".
Those numbers seem to make the opposite case.
These guys are Navy Seals. They are deployed all over the world and I suspect get vaccinated for everything for which we can vaccinate people. Why in the world is the Covid19 vaccine different?
This is all about giving Biden the finger. I think it was a Fox News host that used those words. That Biden wasn’t President when they were developed doesn’t matter in the slightest. Biden wants people to get vaccinated, so they must oppose that.
"Thirty-five Navy Special Warfare servicemembers"
These are the guys that guard you while you sleep. I'd leave them alone.
Yeah them and Colonel Jessup.
All our military people protect us. These prima donnas are not as special as they believe. Our military is larger than we really need, and these 35 people may be a good place to start trimming.
A better place to trim is the military leadership that FU'd the afganistan withdrawal.
The purpose of the military is to win wars and win wars quickly.
The military's role is certainly not social justice or any of the other causes promote by the woke folks
Yeah we really should get rid of President Bush.
You think President Truman made a mistake in integrating the military?
your reply has nothing to do with the merits of my comment
further it demonstrates you have no concept of the purpose of the military.
Great thought- let's just let them run amok. I'm sure that is good for unit cohesion and executing orders.
Glad your dumbass isn't in charge.
They want to weed out any who seem less submissive and more independent minded, it's very important for the agenda going forward.
"The means of defence against foreign danger have been always the instruments of tyranny at home."
And what is your source for 'the agenda going forward?'
James Madison
"At least 99.4% of all active-duty Navy servicemembers have been vaccinated. The remaining 0.6% is unlikely to undermine the Navy's efforts."
I was unaware that 35 Special Warfare members could just be replaced by the other 99.4% of the Navy who are not.
Agree here whole heartedly.
Given that all of these plaintiffs have recently been shot full of military vaccines without protesting, why afford them any inference of sincere belief after they turn on a dime this time? Or if I am wrong, and there are some among them who have been protesting all along, maybe let that make a difference.
"But we do not ask them to lay aside their citizenry and give up the very rights they have sworn to protect." This seems so obviously false. We ask them to give up a lot of rights. You can't even just quit. You have to go wherever the military tells you to go. Your free speech rights are severely constrained. There are serious restrictions on gun ownership or carry on bases. Your jury trial rights on limited. I could go on.
Don't let facts get in the way of a good "freedumb" cry from the geniuses at Reason.
Um, that's a quote from the court, not by Reason.
This is rediculous. The pre-Smith regime established by the RFRA includes the pre-Smith case of Goldman v. Weinberger holding that the military can prohibit religious head coverings or non-military-regulation religious garb or ornaments of any kind.
The idea that the military has a compelling interest in prohibiting a Jew from wearing a yarmulke in peacetime, yet does not have a compelling interest in requiring vaccinations in the middle of a pandemic, seems more an act of pure wishful thinking on the judges’ part than any thing with any remotely supportable foundation in case law.
This isn’t conservatism. This is fuck you and you can go to hell to society. This is saying the Constitution is a suicide pact.
You don't have to even read between the lines to tell that the judge was furious at the mockery of an exemption process more than anything else. If you have a 50 step exemption process, then it's clear that it's a you are bothering by the book. If not a single exemption is granted, then you don't have a functional process. Since step one transparently includes filling out the denial form, then it's clear that they have no intention of ever fulfilling their requirement and the inclusion is a facade.
No, not a facade. A Perjury. The military, by parading an exception process that on its face does not provide any exceptions, has committed perjury to the court. Of course the judge is angry.
The judge should maybe follow the law, regardless of how furious you think he is.
And no, the Navy did not perjure itself, even assuming the pretext you've posited is true.
A clue is that the statistics and process were open and available to the court.
Don't just complain about the Navy. Its hypocrisy is matched elsewhere in government.
Here is a letter that my daughter received today:
"This email is to notify you that your first grade child was recently exposed to COVID19. The date of exposure is 1/4/2022. Please see attached letter for detailed information.
However, they are fully vaccinated against COVID19 and therefore are exempt from quarantine and testing requirements. Follow the "You/your child do not need to get tested or quarantine because you meet one of the following exemptions" heading in the attached letter. Please continue to monitor symptoms and if they develop any symptoms, even minor, please keep your child home and get them tested for COVID19 and wait for their symptoms to resolve before returning to school.
Thank you so much,"
Indeed Omicron is so contagious that one need not quarantine.
At some point, quarantining makes no sense since almost everyone has already been exposed.
Given how it's evolving to become more infectious and less dangerous, hopefully by the time time we get to tau or psi, a strain might become the mythical "contagious vaccine", which grants immunity but has no meaningful effects.
Ben,
You can imagine a distant future, but right now such "official" messages give lie to the general government narrative.
Also, these plaintiffs are apparently not all from the same unit, but they all are Navy Seals? Is this concerted action?
What are you implying? Mutiny?
Stephen Lathrop : "Is this concerted action?"
Certainly. Owning the libs requires their best focused and disciplined effort.
What a bunch of dumbasses. They're stood in a line upon getting to boot (or basic in the case of the army) and stuck near 20 times with various vaccines.
Fuck these assholes. Do your job that you signed up for you ingrates.