The Volokh Conspiracy
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Garland's Choice: Should He Indict Donald Trump for Inciting an Insurrection?
President Biden would be presiding over the prosecution of his most-likely 2024 opponent.
In the New York Times, Laurence Tribe and two others urge Merrick Garland to prosecute Donald Trump for his role in the events of January 6, 2021. The very first charge Tribe proposes is 18 U.S.C. § 2383.
The criminal code prohibits inciting an insurrection or "giving aid or comfort" to those who do, as well as conspiracy to forcibly "prevent, hinder or delay the execution of any law of the United States."
Tribe suggests that a prosecution under this statute would "permanently disqualify" Trump from holding office under Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Section 2383 provides:
Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.
In order to prevent Trump from serving as President, the presidency must be an "office under the United States." By now, you should know the drill.
Earlier this year, Seth Barrett Tillman and I wrote an essay for the Illinois Law Review on President Biden's first 100 days. Our essay, as the title suggests, posed just this question: What Happens if the Biden Administration Prosecutes and Convicts Donald Trump of Violating 18 U.S.C. § 2383? We wrote:
Attorney General Garland's decision will be complicated because there are no settled authorities to answer these legal questions. He will also face tough political choices. Any prosecution could be seen as an effort to disqualify the presumptive Republican nominee for President in 2024. In effect, a Biden Administration prosecution could knock out its most likely political opponent. A substantial segment of the public may view the Attorney General as disenfranchising tens of millions of voters. This decision is fraught with difficulty.
However, we think Garland's decision is simpler in one regard: Trump's conviction under § 2383 would not prevent his serving in the White House again. In our view, if Trump were convicted of violating § 2383, he would be disqualified from holding appointed federal positions. However, that conviction would not disqualify him from holding the presidency or any other elected federal position. We think our reading is correct as a matter of original public meaning with respect to the Constitution of 1788. And this conclusion is unchanged by Sections 3 and 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment. Our position is supported by modern Supreme Court and other federal court precedent.
Attorney General Garland should add our article to his stack of reading material.
Unlike Tribe, I am not surprised that Garland is staying out of this mess. Even if Tribe is right on the law, prosecutorial discretion would weigh heavily against bringing this charge before the 2024 election. The partisan optics would be like the Russiagate, times a billion.
Indeed, if any of the Section 3 litigation makes it to the Supreme Court, I think the Department of Justice would have to decline to take a position on whether Trump is disqualified from the presidency. The conflict of interest is apparent: President Biden's administration would be litigating to knock his opponent out in Court. For those curious, Mark Elias is already predicting litigation with respect to members of Congress:
https://twitter.com/marceelias/status/1473118873302056961
Once again, the precise meaning of "office'- and "officer"-language remains important. Part II of our series in the South Texas Law Review, which lays out our taxonomy, should be published shortly. Seth and I will soon write more about our article in the NYU Journal of Law and liberty, that addresses whether Trump is disqualified pursuant to Section 3.
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Bad optics
Hillary was guilty of blackmail with the pay to play scheme with her foundation
Hillary was guilty with the unsecured server and the email
Hillary was guilty for her part in the russian hoax - including her indirect part of the using government agencies to perpetuate the hoax.
should she have been prosecuted - yes- except really bad optics
Similar with the Hunter Biden corruption (china and ukraine)
Still bad optics to prosecute political opponents
The laptop, General; don't forget the laptop.
You're even worse as a lawyer than you are as a virologist, and that's saying something given that you keep making up stuff about covid.
and he left out the Vince Foster "Suicide", Yeah! Hillary Rodman blowing up VF's phone the day he killed himself(after rubbing one out, Hey Now!) Nothing to see here Folks!!
Hi, David. Your personal remarks commit the Fallacy of Irrelevance. Why can't you stop doing that? What is wrong with you?
Blackmail, I don't know about. But all politician charities are pay to play schemes, and you appoint relatives at ridiculous salaries, maybe have them rent out a room in their house as an office for it, for $4000 a month, that kind of thing.
The purpose is corruption. Any benefit is incidental.
David "who refuses to become informed about current covid research " Nieporent.
Do you always have such a disconnect from reality?
You can prosecute Hillary Clinton and Hunter Biden if you can find any evidence of a crime. My bet is that you can't put together enough evidence to get either case started.
Like Mullah Muller and President Trump? ooh what a burn! never played Chess I'm guessing?
We might remind ourselves that Trump ordered his Justice Department to investigate Hillary. It was the only time in American history where a President ordered an investigation of the person he defeated for the Presidency. And this was a Justice Department which was acting as Trump's personal hatchet men. Yet they couldn't find anything.
A proposed new "norm":
If your opponent accepts the election results and goes away, no investigation and no prosecution, in the interest of encouraging respect for election results and civil transition of power. If they continue to contest it after the EC vote is in, they're fair game, for the exact same reasons.
Trump said the 2020 election was stolen and kept it up after the EC vote was in, so he's fair game. Hillary said the 2016 election was stolen and kept it up after the EC vote was in, so she was fair game.
Hillary didn't do that though.
Hillary conceded immediately, telling her supporters to accept that she lost the election. She congratulated Trump, wished him well, and offered to work with him.
Your equivalence couldn't be any more false.
No she didn't. Why do leftists lie? She has as recently as this year said she was robbed of the election.
True to form, Jesse, you're full of shit. Read the concession speech.
You also need to find a prosecutor, of course.
If you wanted to nail Hunter Biden for a crime, here's your evidence...
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20210405/hunter-biden-incident-shows-that-gun-laws-are-for-the-little-people
Alternatively we prosecute all politicians that commit crimes no matter what party they are from.
Can we Dig Up Teddy Kennedy, who left a young woman to Ashphyxiate(not Drowned, there's a difference) and his victim(Rumers were that Mary Joe was pregnant with Teddy Kennedy Jr, hilarity ensued, no Autopsy, but HCG never goes away just lies a moul-dering in the Grave...
Random capitalization indicates you are illiterate, Frank. What caused this?
You forgot: Hillary murdered Vince Whitewater and stole his cattle futures and sold them to the wife of the ex-Mayor of Benghazi for three trillion dollars.
Yeah, you have to make up stuff, to divert from the real crimes.
Trump - no real crimes. Or at least none out of the ordinary.
Hillary - basically tried and convicted of special crimes, in the Court of Brett Bellmore.
This is not a tenable two positions to hold.
Sarcastr0
December.24.2021 at 8:41 am
Flag Comment Mute User
Hillary - basically tried and convicted of special crimes, in the Court of Brett Bellmore."
"See no evil - the manta on progressives
I didn't say anything about that - I am pointing out Brett's inconsistencies.
You have been gaslighting for leftists for a decade. Do you ever get tired of it?
Why not educate yourself and ask anyone with a security clearance if they could have done what she did.
Before Trump's term in office I would have agreed with you. But after the treasonous Democrats spent the entire term persecuting him with trumped-up charges, none of which stuck, and then conducted the Jan. 6 false flag using FBI agents provocateurs and the phony investigation intended to milk it -- Trump had better be out for heavy duty revenge when he gets back in. The honor of the American people demands it.
Still, bringing Trump to trial on these charges might be a good way to prove our side of things, if the court turns out not to be as dishonest as the usurper's administration and everybody in it.
If they convict him it will be time to open the fourth box.
Well, even though I am not a lawyer, I suspect someone would have to actually be charged with insurrection before Trump can be indicted for leading it.
Tell me again how many of the mostly peaceful protesters arrested January 6th were/are charged with insurrection?
What's that?
How many?
I am shocked, shocked.
Only stupid insurrectionists try it when unarmed. A smart person, say a Democrat, would at least bring guns.
like James Thomas Hodgkinson, who had participated in the Bernie Sanders presidential campaign during the 2016 United States presidential election, and was described by a fellow campaigner in Iowa as a "quiet guy, very mellow, very reserved"
This is all academic since there's no meaningful possibility of Trump being prosecuted anyway, but I don't see any indication under the statute that the government needs to charge someone else with participating in an insurrection before they charge someone else with inciting it.
I would have agreed with you that there's no meaningful chance of this prosecution this time last year. After the mess we've seen, I don't think we can say anything of the sort.
It’s about time somebody challenged the now-received wisdom that the incursion was an “insurrection”. An insurrection? Really? With no weaponry, no arson, no logistics, no military support, no food supply, and, as far as I know, no plan to do anything more than disrupt the day’s proceedings. To me, the whole event, conceding its shocking and dispiriting optics, looked more like a fraternity prank, a fleeting sit-in, a mocking heckler’s veto with inconsequential minor vandalism thrown in.
There was one protester there who got arrested for having an unlicensed pistol. Police discovered it when roughing him up as he was leaving.
That sequence of events pretty much undermines the idea that people went as part of an insurrection.
OK, so if you stand by that opinion post your name and address - you must not believe you'll have to face any criminal charges arising from making such an obviously traitorous statement.
Okay, becoming a Jimmy-the-dane from the left doesn't really add anything to this blog. No, not vaccinating one's kid isn't "child abuse," and claiming that the insurrection wasn't one is not "traitorous" or "criminal." It's first amendment protected speech.
I thought that comment was satire, but I may be wrong. It wouldn't be the first time I've been Poe's Lawed, nor will it be the last.
Tribe and Elias are behind the times, all the hip kids are calling it an autogolpe.
Its just Resistance! porn.
It's not Resistance! any more. Now it's a call to use government power to hurt people who are not them.
That would be a political retaliatory witch hunt by self serious inquisitors. It would justify unleashing massive violence on all Democrat politicians.
Not quite. But if undoing the filibuster was the nuclear option, prosecuting Trump for short term political gain would be the thermonuclear option, and the next time the GOP controlled both houses, they'd indict and prosecute ten times as many. The gloves, as they say, would come off.
That amounts to a threat of baseless retaliation. Just vengeance. And it is pointless. By now everyone understands that today's Republicans will do that, no matter what.
You mean to say the Democrats have never ever done anything for spite? They are lily pure and noble and gentle and kind-hearted?
Wow.
I don't think he said that. But OK, if that's all you've got.
About what I expect from you.
There is a difference between what Republican politicians will do and what non-Democratic party members will do. That is what will happen if Elias gets his way. You would have the 30% or so of the population that is hard-core Dems versus everyone else. I suppose you could have the Dem leadership refuse to seat non-Dem senators and house members. The remaining chambers, with Dem supermajorities, could pass statutes with ease and rely on the newly reconstituted Supreme Court that has been fortified (with 5 or 7 super progressives added to the court) or cleansed (with Thomas and Trump’s trio impeached and removed) will rule that any crazy law passed is constitutional.
When Biden deals with three years of investigations and impeachments over, literally, nothing...then get back to me.
After the baseless Russua hoax and the rest of the Democrats baseless accusations followed up with real violence.
"Russia hoax" is the hoax.
Besides all that, the case against Trump is that he used the word "fight" in a political speech and that he didn't immediately concede the election given all the irregularities and the other side's deep commitment to dishonest means at every turn.
If "fight" in a political speech is "incitement", then approximately 100% of people who ever made political speeches have committed "incitement". And any judge who has ever publicly said "fight" should recuse.
There were no irregularities, and the issue isn't that he didn't concede but that he tried to overthrow the election.
The case against Trump is not that he used the word fight, any more than the case against OJ is that he didn't like his ex-wife.
OJ's Innocent? where you been? (Man! HT Sleepy)
1;hairs consistent with that of Simpson found on cap at Bundy residence, hairs consistent with that of Simpson found on Ron Goldman's shirt.
I get it, OG and Goldman were having a gay affair, in 1994 can't go public, so Whammo!!! (Goldman was a good looking Dude)
2: Blood evidence: (1) killer dropped blood near shoe prints at Bundy, (2) blood dropped at Bundy was of same type as Simpson's (about 0.5% of population would match), (3) Simpson had fresh cuts on left hand on day after murder, (4) blood found in Bronco, (5) blood found in foyer and master bedroom of Simpson home, (5) blood found on Simpson's driveway, (6) blood on socks in OJ's home matched Nicole's.
Oh, and the "Gloves did Fit", if a little tight, what, you want loose fitting gloves when you're slicing and dicing your Ex and her Squeeze?
Frank
WTF are you talking about?
Nothing, as usual.
"There were no irregularities" in reference to any US election is one of the top idiotic statements one can make.
State officials changing voting regulations without authorization approval is not an irregularity?
Giving absentee ballots to people forbidden to receive them is not an irregularity?
Ballot harvesting is not an irregularity?
Refusing to check signatures when the law requires it is not an irregularity?
Not filing or having invalid chain of custody on ballots is not an irregularity?
Opening hundreds of thousands of mail-in ballots early, in violation of the law, is not an irregularity?
Sending out teams to work with voters to "cure" ballots, in violation of the law, is not an irregularity?
People attempting to vote multiple times is not an irregularity?
The list of questionable or illegal activities that happened is quite long.
You can quite reasonably make the argument that many of these were not crimes, or that they did not change the outcome of the election.
But to claim that there were no irregularities is either idiocy or lying.
"There were no irregularities" in reference to any US election is one of the top idiotic statements one can make.
It’s just their usual deep commitment to dishonesty.
The ever widening circle of 'they' is one indicator you've bought into a conspiracy theory.
And yeah, there were no irregularities. The list above is a mix of debunked stuff, mountains out of molehills, and misunderstanding of the state of the law.
"Irregularity" is a low bar. So you are incorrect and, as usual, not trying to be honest.
"Irregularity" is not a well defined term. What irregularities do you think there were?
There are literally too many to easily recall. Chain of custody problems, fabricated evidence, staff of long-term care facilities voting for residents who aren't mentally able to vote, sending witnesses away before continuing to count ballots, the works. Dozens of different irregularities discovered in Georgia alone: https://www.11alive.com/article/news/politics/probe-sought-into-ga-voting-system/85-33cc0c42-1dd4-482d-94a0-54fa92c36ef8
As your article says
And the irregularities have since been fully investigated confirming that the result stands. And for all claimed irregularities, either the error is small with the result standing or the irregularity was found not be true.
Nothing has been fully investigated.
Why the blatant lying from some of you?
And there is no knowledge if something effected an outcome without a full audit, not a facial one.
Yeah; this is rhetorical game playing. If "Polls are supposed to be open until 7:00, but I got there at 6:59:30 and they had just closed the door" counts as an "irregularity," or if "There's a precinct in West Fargo which ran out of ballots at 4 pm and they had to go get some more from the county clerk and so nobody could vote between 4 and 4:30" does, then, yeah, there were irregularities.
Of course, he knows full well that nobody means that when they make accusations of "irregularities." People who say that mean that there was something special about the conduct of the 2020 election that calls the accuracy of the announced results into question. And by that definition, there were no irregularities.
Come on, Sarcastr0. I realize you're in the heat of an argument and maybe it was only a rhetorical "no".
But consider the list of irregularities allegedly committed by Republicans, with the accusers being Democrats, e.g:
- reducing the number of ballot drop off boxes
- printing insufficient number of ballots
- improperly turning away voters for lack of ID
Do you also classify these as "debunked" stuff or not rising to the heinous level of "irregularity". If not, you've conceded there were some. Like there have been in every major election.
What is your definition of irregularity?
And if you want to go in depth, freaking go in depth. Name specific regularities you think remain true and valid concerns.
Again, "no irregularities" is one of the stupidest statements anyone can make about US elections.
More than one hundred thousand polling places all performed perfectly, never opening late or closing early, never turning anyone away improperly or using incorrect voter requirements, no malfunctioning equipment, no paperwork filled out incorrectly or missing, no improper displays of political campaign material, and so on? Dream on, because that has never happened in any US election.
You are just lying again, and in one of the more obvious and stupid ways - even for you.
That's a ridiculous strawman of a bar you set.
Maybe consider I didn't mean the superlative unprovable thing, but rather some more general statement relating to relevant electoral issues.
So you've moved the goalposts from "there were no irregularities" to "Sure, there were plenty of irregularities, but without investigation, I want to claim that none of them matter"?
DN made a claim, one that was trivially false, then you tried to double down on defending it. Now you want to pretend that what you meant the entire time was something completely different.
If all those things happen in every election, then I guess they aren't irregularities.
Trump tried using all legal means, from bully blapperpit to idiotic legal cases to idiotic procedural moves.
Just like the other side. The country's been biting **** sandwiches for five years now as both sides pull out all the stops in mad power grabs.
He brought this on himself, granted. But the shameful behavior of the other side, too, well, two wrongs do not make good constitutional governorship.
Lol. So the 15+ court cases ruled on saying election changes were illegally made weren't irregular?
The thousands of double votes known about are not irregular?
Pennsylvania election workers talking about destroying and fabricating evidence isn't irregular?
Does every leftist here have their heads up their asses?
Nio, the imaginary cases in your head weren't irregular.
The half dozen or so double votes — all by Republicans — are "irregular" in some sense, but a pretty meaningless one.
No, the imaginary Pennsylvania election workers who confessed to the Kennedy assassination aren't irregular.
If it is not to apply to all criminal conspiracies or acts of obstruction of justice, "rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof" has to be read too narrowly to apply to January 6.
There is some precedent for handling single individuals whose qualification or election is in doubt when control of the chamber is not affected. What happens on the first day of the 2023 session if apparent minority leader Pelosi says "we Democrats reject those 30 Republicans so I get to be Speaker" and the Republican leader replies "everybody who backed her up on that is a traitor and disqualified from office"?
I'm guessing a Gallows might be involved.
Screw that. I want public gulliotines.
My view is that the prosecution of a former president by the other party would be incredibly toxic to the country under any circumstances, even in more normal times when the former president wasn't the leader of a death cult.
That having been said, if and only if it can be shown that Trump was actually involved in the coup attempt — not just by inciting it, or creating the conditions for it, but by actively conspiring with people — it would be necessary to prosecute him. (Not for the purposes of disqualifying him, but for the underlying purposes that prosecuting any crime by anyone serves.)
There was no "coup" attempt.
I have to agree. There would have to be evidence of organization, plans, command, and/or some method of actually achieving discernable goals that would result in command of the government.
Now, if these things existed, and Trump was in charge, then he would be guilty.
On the other hand, you can easily make soup from a stone, if you add vegetables, broth, meat, and noodles. The January 6th riot lacks every single element necessary to call it a coup, much less an insurrection.
An attempt to overthrow the lawful government by force is pretty much the definition of a coup.
Unless you want to hang your hat on the technicality that Trump was still going to be president for two more weeks regardless.
What force? They were unarmed. The only murder was by a Capitol cop.
And 99% of the outrage against Jan 6th was outraged in favor of all the spring and summer Burn Loot Murder mostly peaceful burning, looting and murdering; their hypocrisy is plain to see once you take off your blinders.
They were not unarmed, and I'm not sure why you think violence requires weapons anyway.
If you're engaging in a so-called "coup"...might help to have actual weapons, and not leave them in your car.
Of course, if you're engaging in what you think is a peaceful protest, you leave the weapons at home.
Well, maybe not at home always, but in the car, sure. The thing to remember is that a good portion of the population always keeps a gun in their vehicle. They don’t see it as part of an insurrection, but rather normal prudence, like checking the air pressure in their tires.
Many of the 1-6 protesters traveled from states in which carrying a gun in their vehicle is normal. For example, meeting a guy in MT, where we legally reside, seems to typically start with someone pulling out their pocket gun (maybe a derringer, or a .380 semiautomatic), followed by the other guy pulling out his. After checking out pocket guns, one will pull out his truck gun (usually a normal size and caliber handgun, but sometimes something a bit bigger) and the other guy or guys will reciprocate. You pass them around, and then everyone knows that everyone is cool. Call it the Good Old Boy ritual. Do the cops freak out when they find someone armed? Never, because if they did, they would find themselves quickly unemployed. Heck, we did this last year at a handgun class I took last year, taught by the local Justice of the Peace (who does felony arraignments and misdemeanor trials), attended by a couple cops.
Isn't this the same side that says you can't have your guns because it is an anacronism and guns have no chance against a modern army?
And here is this "coup attempt" that had little to none, and was an "existential threat"?
Trump's side may be exaggerating, power hungry, distorting liars. But guess what?
There was no "attempt to overthrow"
There was a simple protest that got a little out of hand.
An "attempt to overthrow" would not have peacefully left the Capitol
Yeah. Right. Got a little out of hand, like throwing fire extinguishers at cops, breaking down doors.
Fuck off.
And "peacefully left the capitol"....of their own free will.
Worst attempt to overthrow the government ever.
"We took the Capitol! Yay! Now let's all leave without doing anything else! Yay!"
Because everyone was evacuated, you fuck.
Unworthy of you.
Your one consistent behavior is you continue to be a pathetic leftist and failed lawyer. Lol.
Worst attempt to overthrow the government ever.
Yeah. Lots of criminals are pretty stupid.
That doesn't make them innocent.
Lots of people are stupid. That doesn't make them guilty of anything.
Funny thing was, that the guys breaking down the doors were not arrested, while the people who followed them in were. That was part of why it was obvious that the whole thing was a setup. And it turned out that both that the protesters were armed, and that they threw fire extinguishers, was uncorroborated rumor, and no one was ever prosecuted for either.
It's disappointing that someone with as little sense of shame or integrity such as yourself would bother typing out deliberate lies.
It was not a setup, and the protesters had plenty among them who were indeed armed with weapons. Perhaps you've missed the video evidence of them throwing staffs and beating police officers with those and other weapons.
Perhaps you're just a disgusting liar.
Jason, the FBI has routinely put moles in political groups that urged their group to violence. It happened to Dr. King. It happened to the Panthers. It happened to a bunch of the communist groups in the 70s, to the point that most of the members were actually police. Just last year, the plot to kidnap the governor of Minnesota had so many police in critical roles that the defense is arguing that there would not have been a plot if the FBI hadn't arranged it.
This isn't a wacky theory. It's just suspicion that the FBI is continuing to do what they have done in the past. Add in the baffling nature of the charges (misdemeanor trespassing yet held without bail, and no one being charged with actually breaking in), and it's ripe for the suspicions to become suspicious.
Bruce - are there any specific examples of those still charged whose acts you feel are just tresspass?
And it turned out that both that the protesters were armed, and that they threw fire extinguishers, was uncorroborated rumor, and no one was ever prosecuted for either.
You're a lying piece of shit.
Yes, they were.
False.
It is quite possible that Bruce Hayden lives in an area so poorly served by media that his only television option is Fox. That could account for the apparent obliviousness of this comment. But why he would not check out the vast trove of Capitol insurrection coverage available online is inexplicable, and on him.
There was no attempt to overthrow a lawful government. Therefore, there was no coup attempt. And anyone who thinks there was needs to have his head examined.
Perhaps "overthrow" is the wrong word. But, an attempt to steal the election is damned serious.
When does it stop being legitimate election questioning and become an attempt to steal the election? I would consider the years of Trump's investigations a far bigger attempt to "steal" than questioning election methods and integrity, while ironically, Bush was guilty of "stealing" the election for shutting down Gore's recount requests in 2000.
In fact, it seems that it's only "stealing" if done by the opposition party.
When there is no evidence to support the questioning.
There's plenty of potential evidence. Eyewitness testimony from people.
Trump had ample opportunities to have those witnesses testify. But when faced with court proceedings, not one of his lawyers offered up witnesses.
At least you admit there's evidence now.
It ceased being evidence when Trump turned down introducing it in court.
potential evidence that never materializes isn't evidence.
Yeah. I saw some of that "eyewitness testimony." And all those stacks of "affidavits" about space aliens changing votes in Italy or something.
What a total load of crap.
You can’t view the assault on the capitol In isolation. it was part of a plan to subvert the government — the transfer of power prescribed by law. The assault was intended to buy more time for the scheme. That it failed (so far) is not relevant
Of course you can't. You have to view it in the context of the Whitmer kidnapping scheme and the FBI "investigation" of Trump and Russia.
Also in the context of James Hodgkinson, CHAZ/CHOP, other self-declared "autonomous zones", ongoing attempts to destroy local and federal government buildings in Oregon, and other assaults on police that were explicitly condoned and supported by the people who are now whinging "insurrection".
I have to agree.
What a fucking surprise that you agree with A.L. on this.
Of course there was a coup attempt. What do you think those assholes breaking into the Capitol were trying to do? Here's a clue: They weren't interested in looking at the paintings.
They were protesting. They protested. Then they left.
But here...read the story from the FBI informant who was there, from the NY times.
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/25/us/politics/capitol-riot-fbi-informant.html
If you really want to open your eyes, you can even read non-liberal sources.
What...do you think this story shows?
Here's a multi-piece story on identified perps at the January 6th riot, who the FBI suddenly lost all interest in going after.
People identifiable in photos and video, their names are known, they're visibly inciting illegal acts or committing them themselves. Urging people to enter the Capitol. Tearing down barricades, removing all signs that entry was prohibited before the bulk of the protesters could arrive.
One day they're on the most wanted list, the next it's, "We have no idea who you're talking about."
Sarcastro, when that group plotted to kidnap Gov. Whitmer, it eventually turned out that the majority of the plotters, and all the organizers, were FBI or working for the FBI.
It's really looking like Jan. 6th might have been the same sort of thing, and the FBI isn't going after ringleaders because they were on their payroll to begin with.
You seem to be wrong about Whitmer, :
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gretchen_Whitmer_kidnapping_plot
As to your conspiracy theory based on a...rather motivated source, you have people caught doing about the same thing you defend Trump for, with no specified ties to the FBI. You're filling in a *lot* of blanks to get where you want to go.
Just as revolver intended.
Men accused in Gov. Whitmer kidnapping plot want entrapment evidence admitted at trial
"They say that without the FBI and its at least one dozen paid informants encouraging the men, offering up an explosives expert or paying for hotels and other costs related to meetings and training sessions, the plan would have never hatched."
Wikipedia, predictably, (The co-founder tells people that the site is barely more than a left-wing propaganda site anymore, the political censorship has gotten so bad.) barely acknowledges that FBI informants had any role in the plotting at all.
Brett, you're quoting the lawyers for the accused as a factual source.
And then you call Wikipedia too biased to credit.
That's pretty blatant curation of your own reality.
As I noted above, the people breaking into the capital were never arrested or prosecuted. The ones who were arrested, were the ones who followed them inside.
As noted below, this is flatly untrue. Where did you get this from?
The massive aura radiating from the brainless sheeple that salute Our Great Leader Trump is an offensive stench that corrupts nearly all discussion on this website. If you are Republican who has previously claimed to support the Constitution, yet now support Trump's efforts to destroy public confidence in the democratic system, you have become a fraud and a liar, at best.
A crowd used intimidation and force in an attempt to influence the decisions of the sitting Congress. If you think that is ok you are either utterly incompetent or corrupt and your opinion has no value in civilized discussion.
https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2021/01/11/capitol-riot-self-coup-trump-fiona-hill-457549
The problem here is not Biden's or Garland's. The problem is Trump. Most disgraced politicians go away quietly, and in many cases the public chooses not to pursue any action in return. Richard Nixon for example. Trump wants to be the center of attention and may in the end force people to take action.
Pursuing Trump with charges is not good, but neither is ignoring them if he continues to push lies.
But it's ok for Hillary to toss out feelers for a 2024 run.
It's not like Nixon could run again though. He probably would have even after Watergate.
Well, Nixon is probably registered as a Democrat in California with a perfect voting record in every election since he died.
That disgraced plagiarist of a politician should have slunk off back to Scranton after his failure in the 1988 nomination. His refusal to do so, and to try to be the center of attention, will "force" our next president to take action!
Do you even hear yourself?
We should be having a serious discussion about Mark Elias and his part in the Russian Collusion conspiracy. Now there is someone who should be indicted!
You mean to tell me that there isn't a single prosecutor in the entire US to bring this case? If you have "evidence" to corroborate your accusations you should bring it to the attention of that prosecutor or at the very least to Fox News.
No, there isn’t. Prosecutors are political animals. Justice has nothing to do with their jobs. Any attempt to indict one of the elite would result in repercussions for that prosecutor that would make the Russian collusion mess look like a shoplifting charge.
The judicial system in this country is corrupt to its core, at least on the national level.
I want to see Trump prosecuted for pressuring the GA SoS to change the votes in Georgia. That seems like a much cleaner case and we have a recording of the call.
Agreed
Bring the charges, Bee-Otch!
He never did that, so why should he be prosecuted for it?
See? Even with it on tape, cultists gotta cult.....
If it is on tape, please provide the exact quote where Trump pressures him to "change the votes".
Since it happened, according to you, you must be able to. Note: Not "wild-eyes Leftist's interpretation of some comment" but actual evidence of this demand to "change the votes".
Of course I post the below knowing it will only result in clown attempts from the Cult to insist words don't have meanings (at least when spoken by Trump, that is).
Our own Brett has claimed it was acceptable for DJT to insist Raffensperger produce a specific number of votes the George Secretary of State repeatedly said didn't exist - just as long as Trump "sincerely" believed he won something somewhere at sometime.
You see, that's the grade of bullshit the Cult produces to defend the indefensible.
"According to the publicly released recording of the call and reports made by multiple news agencies, Trump attempted to pressure the Secretary into "finding him votes," despite being repeatedly told that there was no electoral error. Trump's repeated efforts to convince the Secretary to find some basis to overturn the election results were perceived as pleading and threatening. At one point on the call, Trump told Raffensperger, "What I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state." During the call, Trump falsely suggested that Raffensperger could have committed a criminal offense. Legal experts have suggested that Trump's behavior and demands could have violated state and federal laws."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump%E2%80%93Raffensperger_phone_call
"Our own Brett has claimed it was acceptable for DJT to insist Raffensperger produce a specific number of votes the George Secretary of State repeatedly said didn't exist - just as long as Trump "sincerely" believed he won something somewhere at sometime."
That is an outright lie.
Trump stated the number of votes he would have to find to change the outcome, expressed his confidence they were there to find, and asked for access so that his own people could find them.
You own quote says that: "What I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have, because we won the state."
He didn't ask Raffensperger to produce anything but access to look for those votes.
Grb has some stones accusing others of belonging to a cult.
That is why I focus on describing you guys as half-educated racists, superstitious gay-bathers, disaffected clingers, and obsolete culture war casualties.
But not sl_ck-j_ws or c_p succ_rs, becauseProf. Volokh protects his right-wing homies with liberal — oops, make that anti-liberal — censorship.
cope and seethe - 6-3 SCOTUS for decades to come, maybe 7-2 soon if Breyer is a good boy and doesn't retire before 2023
The angriest one around here seems like it's you.
Having some trouble coping with 2020?
He doesn't seem to have much trouble seething.
Slack-jaws, slack-jaws, slack-jaws. I don't think Prof. Volokh cares about slack-jaws.
There is zero way that anyone neutral and look at the transcript and not come to the conclusion that Trump wanted him to change the votes. The hint of criminal prosecution (from the guy who controls the FBI) is just icing on the cake.
"And I think you have to say that you’re going to re-examine it and you can re-examine it, but re-examine it with people that want to find answers, not people that don’t want to find answers."
"So what are we going to do here, folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break."
"But the ballots are corrupt. And you’re going to find that they are — which is totally illegal, it is more illegal for you than it is for them because, you know what they did and you’re not reporting it. That’s a criminal — that’s a criminal offense. And you can’t let that happen. That’s a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer."
I am as anti-Trump as it gets, but I'm not certain Trump committed a crime on that call. The defense will argue Trump honestly believed he had easily won the state due to stark fraud and he believed he was only pressuring people to do their job. His emphasis on the number of votes needed was not to find the "correct" number of illicit votes, but to show that they didn't need to do much in order to do their duty.
Of course, the predicate (Trump easily won thanks to stark fraud) is 100% crap. But it may be enough that Trump thought it wasn't crap in order to gain a not guilty verdict.
I agree. When I first heard the tape I Thought it was pathetic, not criminal. A much more likely prosecution is conspiracy to obstruct an official proceeding.
Explain why someone who's been a huckster liar his entire life gets this benefit of the doubt. Are we honestly supposed to believe Trump thought he won the popular vote in '16? That Trump thought he beat Cruz in the Iowa primary as well? That his inauguration crowd was the largest ever ?!? This is a man who would call financial publications pretending to be someone else - just to talk about what a genius Trump is. Did he "sincerely" believe he was a third party then, or was this just him in sleazy con artist-mode? Why would you think post-election was any different?
Here we have the most grotesque liar in all of modern politics and people look to find "sincerity" in his words. That frigg'n boggles the mind.....
For all this so-called "sincere" belief the election was stolen, the huckster never settled on one theory how from any minute to the next. Even in the brief Georgia phone call Trump breathlessly raced thru one conspiracy theory after another, like a chimpanzee throwing handfuls of it's own feces against the wall. Doesn't that raise any alarms with people looking for Trump's "sincerity"? If he really believed the bullshit he was peddling, wouldn't a tiny bit of consistency have emerged?
But go back months before the election and look: Trump thought he would lose, so began telling supporters it would be because of election fraud. Eight months before the election, six months before, four and one - right up to the eve of the day itself, he was prepping his base for the coming con.
Then he loses and says, "fraud". His supporters wail in anguish, rip the hair from their heads, sob in despair. And some people here honestly believe Trump was "sincere" in a hustle he's been prepping for over a year. How the ever-loving HELL can they possibly believe that ?!?
I don't know if it meets a criminal threshold, but it sure is someone who is working to tear down our Republic.
The law does not make an exception if you believe you won. You still can't pressure the SoS to change votes.
Are you sure mens rea isn't required (I'm not, one way or the other)?
I don´t know what Georgia criminal statutes potentially apply. But if charges are forthcoming, the determination of whether Trump did or did not believe the bullshit he was feeding Raffensperger will present a question for a Fulton County jury´s determination. After all, a hand recount of the Georgia vote confirmed the original totals, and Raffensperger stood firmly behind the governor´s officially certified results at all stages. The jury would be free to believe or disbelieve Trump´s testimony (should he choose to testify).
But you can sure as hell pressure the SoS to investigate ballot fraud.
Which may eventually lead to vote totals being changed, but isn't pressure to change votes.
Brett, 'find the votes' is not about investigating ballot fraud.
You don't want it to be.
Like I said, presumption of guilt. Trump's foes interpret everything about him through that filter. And demand that everybody else do it, too!
Josh R, how could that work in court, without putting Trump on the stand. If Trump goes on the stand, he gets convicted. He will get caught in one blatant lie after another, and everything he says will be discounted to zero by the jury.
"There is zero way that anyone neutral and look at the transcript and not come to the conclusion that Trump wanted him to change the votes."
All you're doing here is demonstrating that you approach everything Trump says or does from an irrefutable presumption of criminality.
Brett Bellmore : "That is an outright lie"
Look in a mirror if you want to see who's peddling lies
1. Trump had zero facts to suggest 11,780 votes were waiting to be found.
2. Trump didn't have a coherent theory where those votes could be found from any moment to the next.
3. Trump had no substantive argument in response when Raffensperger told him those votes didn't exist.
4. Trump began pushing his vote fraud hustle a year before Election Day and continues to push it today. But he's never had a single fact behind him, never had a coherent or consistent story on fraud from one audience to the next, and he's never proven a single damn thing in any independent or evidentiary forum.
5. And let's not forget: He lies like other people breathe.
Yet per Brett, all Trump has to do is claim he "believes" something and that launders the criminality from a clearly fraudulent act. Per Brett, Trump is (impossibly) "delusional" whenever his conduct can't be excused with any other hokum.
William of Ockham begs to differ. The reason Trump began peddling vote fraud bullshit a full year before the election was to have an excuse in case he lost. The reason he couldn't put a rational case before Raffensperger was because he never had more than smoke and mirrors. The reason his fraud claptrap changes with every audience is because it's performance alone.
When are you gonna try and recoup a little self-respect, Brett? Do honestly want to keep endlessly doing this? You dutifully trail behind Trump like that guy with a pan & shovel behind the elephant in a parade. Kinda think you can do better, dude...
Video evidence that the Republican poll watchers were thrown out, for a bogus water leak excuse, and then counting restarted after the room had been secured by the Democrats. Video evidence that boxes of ballets were then carted in and counted. Video evidence that three (later identified) poll workers had repeatedly run the same batch of ballots through counting machines. Etc. Oh, and hundreds of sworn affidavits.
Cite the cases where this 'evidence' was presented and evaluated, and what the determination was.
You're not just lying again, are you?
Every word of this is a lie. As explained by the Republican officials in Georgia. Why are you such a despicable human being that you do this. You know none of it is true. Nobody was thrown out. There was no water leak excuse used to do so. No counting resumed after a room was "secured" by Democrats. No boxes were then "carted in." By definition one cannot run the same batch of ballots repeatedly, because then there's too many total votes.
And while Republicans in various jurisdictions did provide sworn affidavits, the substance of those affidavits was nothing. The only affidavits alleging criminal activity were the incompetent, unqualified "expert" affidavits that the kraken team tried to offer.
Like so many other people with whom I always generally disagreed but used to believe tethered to consensus epistemological norms, somewhere along the way Bruce lost his frickin mind.
grb
You said its a public released phone call.
Quote the call, all of it.
Not wiki, that is notoriously compromised in the "factual" area.
But the worst of the worst, What crime are you charging?
Don't bother. This is from same the people who claim "They let you grab them by the pussy" is a description of rape, just ignoring the first half of the sentence.
You could play a video of Trump singing the Pokemon song and some people would find something to object to in it.
That's not what Trump said.
It's sexual assault if you do it when they don't want you to, whether you can coerce them after the fact.
What I said was a direct, word for word quote.
The idea was "when you are rich and famous, girls flock to you".
He was bragging about women being willing to do anything for him. It had nothing to do with coercion at all.
Please actually listen to what is said, not what you want the embodiment of evil to say.
What I said was a direct, word for word quote.
Lets check out the whole quote, here:
I better use some Tic Tacs just in case I start kissing her. You know I'm automatically attracted to beautiful—I just start kissing them. It's like a magnet. Just kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything. Grab 'em by the pussy. You can do anything.
That does describe sexual assault.
Did your eyes just somehow pass over the, "And when you're a star, they let you do it." line?
He's marveling at how much consent is available to TV stars.
Well, you have a really low opinion of women generally, I guess.
I'm realistic about how women who hang around TV stars and big name athletes act, yes.
Of course, this little self-righteous throat clearing would have been MUCH more effective had it been followed by words actually spoken by Trump instead of a... Wikipedia article gap-filling a few sentence fragments with a bunch of words NOT spoken by Trump.
If you really have the goods, you don't have to play games like that. Q.E.D.
I knew that was what you referring to, of course, and it does not anywhere show that Trump was pressuring anyone to "change the votes", which is what you claimed.
Trump believed that he had the votes and they were not being counted due to shenanigans. At no point did he say what you and your fellow Leftists claim - which is why you need to insist that the words used actually mean something different, so your conspiracy theory that depends on those different words can actually work in your head.
Whether Trump believed his bullshit, as well as whether any such belief was reasonable, present jury questions.
Quit the cult, Brett.
You'll be better off.
Shades of the Wars of Religion.
In their usual Orwellian manner, to defend democracy, they must deny the American people a chance to elect this candidate.
These leftist lunatics can't decide whether Trump is a universally-despised has-been or a man whom the American people might very well elect President.
"again"
As the article notes, Trump might well be able to still run. What the voters would have is a full accounting of his actions and can choose to ignore this if they want.
It’s been 5 years, and non-stop at that. They already have an “accounting”, and then some. Anything else is creating things out of whole cloth.
They’re afraid he can win, and are trying to stop that before it happens by abusing the legal system to do it. Corrupt to its core.
The Dems have some nerve complaining about Trump supporters who don’t believe the 2020 outcome considering how much the Dems did not believe the 2016 outcome.
Collusion with Russia is not the same as inciting an insurrection.
The Dem Jan 06 equivalent was a big march of people in pink hats and included fires in a trashcan and of a car.
Truly the same level of threat to our Republic.
You're straw grasping.
"Collusion with Russia is not the same as inciting an insurrection."
In terms of being pure fiction, they are identical.
Weird you chose the strawman, then.
Here's a list of the Democrats who said that Trump didn't actually get more electoral votes than Hillary: .
Did you miss all of the Dems disputing the results at the vote counting? It was well more than a few.
And Republicans did not call for them to be tossed from Congress. Dems ARE doing that. Perhaps taking the higher road is not worth the effort.
all of the Dems disputing the results at the vote counting
Name them.
Reps. Jamie Raskin, D-Md., Pramila Jayapal, D-Wash., Barbara Lee, D-Calif., Sheila Jackson Lee, D-Texas, Raúl Grijalva, D-Ariz., Maxine Waters, D-Calif., and Jim McGovern, D-Mass.
FD,
No need for obviously-false strawman arguments. No one EVER said that Trump is *universally* despised. Even at his worst of times (and, boy, were there a lot of "worsts" in those 4 years), NO ONE on the left ever thought, "Oh, Trump's idiot wing has abandoned him. He's lost that 40% of the country."
Now, I heard a lot of mainstream conservatives opining that, "This time; he's gone too far. Many in his base will leave him now." Those 'experts' were, generally-speaking, always wrong.
Because those pundits consistently overestimated the morality and decency of the Trump base.
It doesn't matter what he says or does.
Yes, a lot of "mainstream conservatives" need psychiatric counseling for Stockholm syndrome after years of abuse by left-wingers.
Not me. I welcome Trump’s continued malign influence on the GOP.
Such an indictment would work about as well as the two impeachments. It’d stir up the Democratic base and end in acquittal.
Not necessarily as the impeachments are political decisions and criminal charges would mean a jury trial. Juries don't have to worry about being primaried.
If I were Trump, I would not want to take my chances with a District of Columbia jury.
He could get a bench trial. But here of late juries have been far more bound by the law than lots of legal scholars. He would be better with random jurors than a DC Judge.
The government also has a right to trial by jury, which I doubt the Attorney General would waive.
In fact, I think it might push some people away. The unprecedented act of prosecuting a politician for making a political speech will backfire. This will be a repeat of the first impeachment, which cost Biden a lot of moderate voters as his corruption came to widespread public knowledge, but didn't move many against Trump at all.
Eugene Debs would like a word with you.
I'm kind of ambivalent about whether section 3 is best interpreted as applying to the office of the Presidency, but the bigger obstacle to prosecuting him for inciting insurrection would be lack of probable cause.
They haven't prosecuted ANYBODY who actually entered the Capitol with "insurrection", and I've yet to see the slightest bit of evidence that Trump was genuinely connected with anything that happened that was illegal.
A complicating factor is that, if he were charged, he'd be tried in D.C., where you'd be hard put to find a jury that wouldn't convict him of any charge you could name, without even a case being presented; He literally got 5.4% of the vote, odds are good that every single member of the jury would be a Democrat.
You couldn't come up with probable cause, but probable conviction wouldn't be hard. And my impression of Garland is that this would be a factor in his considerations.
Who is Ray Epps?
https://www.revolver.news/2021/10/arrest-of-green-beret-oath-keeper-threatens-to-expose-fbis-darkest-1-6-secrets/
What did the FBI know about January 6th? How many informants and agents did it have on the scene?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/25/us/politics/capitol-riot-fbi-informant.html
Yeah and the Donald is one of them!
Objection. Assumes facts not in evidence.
Dude, Jan 06 was not an FBI Op.
In this thread, AL has argued:
Jan 06 was no big deal
Jan 06 was a righteous response to the election getting stolen by the Dems
Jan 06 was an FBI Op.
Have some integrity. You suck, dude.
Well I definitely want some answers about Ray Epps, from the video in his own words it’s clear he is encouraging people to breach the Capitol, both on Jan 5, and on Jan 6th, yet he is unindicted.
The answers will come out eventually, and if it does turn out Epps was an informer, or under the active direction of the FBI then the longer it takes to come out the worse it will be.
It’s not like like the Jan 6th commission is generating a lot of electoral leverage, a GOP Congress is just a year away with their own subpoena power.
This of course doesn’t excuse people that committed crimes on Jan 6th, but I think anyone that entered the Capitol at the direction of an FBI asset has a decent defense and they are entitled to discover the facts.
So there is no established connection with the FBI, was see only speaking. Has the FBI pressed any other incitement-only cases?
Oh, and he's a long-time Oath Keeper. Like, since Obama was in office. Long game the FBI is playing!
There's no there there. Certainly not enough to build a whole FBI incitement story around.
If there's no connection with the FBI, why did he vanish from the FBI's wanted list and why hasn't he been arrested? He was LITERALLY inciting insurrection both the day before and the day of the incident. You want to make an insurrection argument, he's your gold fucking standard. Yet the government seems quite eager to flush him down the memory hole. Why has there been no attempt to go after the guy who cut down and calmly rolled up the restricted area signs? It's really fucking weird how that's shaken out.
If there is a connection with the FBI, why was he put on the FBI's wanted list?
(The answer to your question: it wasn't the FBI's "wanted list." It was the FBI's "please help us identify these people" list. Once he had been identified, they no longer needed help in identifying him.)
Once they realize he was one of their guys, they lost interest.
odds are good that every single member of the jury would be a Democrat.
You much touted skill with numbers has deserted you.
Even if 95% of the pool is Democrats the chance that all twelve jurors will be Democrats is only 54%. So a bit more than even money.
Unless you fail to account for preemptory challenges.
Which I did. 92.5% of the jury pool would likely be Democrats. The probability of randomly selecting 12 Democrats from that pool would be 39%.
But the odds of getting few enough Republicans that you could get rid of all of them during voir dire? Excellent!
92.5% of the 12 jurors would likely be Democrats. That means there would likely be 11 Democrats and 1 Republican on the jury. Odds are that the lone Republican would be a never-Trumper. DC is the imperial capital and almost all of its residents would support the empire against any outsider.
You, too, are forgetting the preemptory challenges. There would be few enough Republicans in the jury pool that they could eliminate them all with preemptory challenges.
It's basically impossible for a conservative Republican to get a fair trial in DC, if there are any political implications to it.
I get the argument that an indictment would be seen as political. You're going after the almost-certain future nominee of a party, after all. But why on earth are people (deliberately??) overlooking the reciprocal argument: It's just as political to *refuse* to indict someone...just b/c they were in office and will be running again. Why is that sort of political decision okay, but falling into the "should prosecute" camp indica of some moral or ethical failing?
Trump apparently committed crimes in this past. He was not prosecuted ONLY BECAUSE he was then president. (We all remember "Unindicted co-conspirator #1," which everyone on the right, left, and middle knew referred to Prez Trump.)
We have a long tradition in this country of not going after former political rivals. And, on balance, that is a very very positive part of our political culture. But that is (IMO) 100% based on an unspoken understanding of something like, "We're not gonna go after you, even though we possibly could. But that's largely due to you leaving the active political arena."
It seems totally bizarre to me, to refuse to prosecute someone (during their term of service) who did some bad shit while in office...AND THEN deliberately refuse to prosecute once she's/he's out of office, only because that (alleged) wrongdoer may run for federal political office again in the future.
If doing X looks political, and doing Not-X looks political...maybe just put on our big boy pants and do the legally right thing, and fuck how it looks to right-wing and left-wing media. They're both gonna be whining about something, anyway.
OJ's Innocent? where you been? (Man! HT Sleepy)
1;hairs consistent with that of Simpson found on cap at Bundy residence, hairs consistent with that of Simpson found on Ron Goldman's shirt.
I get it, OG and Goldman were having a gay affair, in 1994 can't go public, so Whammo!!! (Goldman was a good looking Dude)
2: Blood evidence: (1) killer dropped blood near shoe prints at Bundy, (2) blood dropped at Bundy was of same type as Simpson's (about 0.5% of population would match), (3) Simpson had fresh cuts on left hand on day after murder, (4) blood found in Bronco, (5) blood found in foyer and master bedroom of Simpson home, (5) blood found on Simpson's driveway, (6) blood on socks in OJ's home matched Nicole's.
Oh, and the "Gloves did Fit", if a little tight, what, you want loose fitting gloves when you're slicing and dicing your Ex and her Squeeze?
Frank
Frank,
Don't understand your post at all. Did you mean to post in a thread a few decades ago, which was discussing OJ??? (I doubt that more than 1% of VC readers ever thought OJ was innocent, by the way, so even if you were caught in a time warp, you're preaching to the choir in your post.)
So Dig up LBJ and prosecute his embalmed wrinkly ass.
As a general rule, I don't think our two-party duopoly wants to activate a cycle of retaliatory prosecutions, or whether it wants to give the rabble the dangerous idea that high-ranking offenders can be punished for their criminal behavior.
I mean, they often hate each other, but when the chips are down, they unite against their common enemy - the public.
How do you think the Bush-era torturers escaped prosecution? How do you think Clapper and Hillary escaped?
Of course, since the duopoly (Democratic *and* Republican wings) doesn't particularly like Trump (to put it mildly), then they may want to carve out an exception from their general rule of mutual back-scratching and mutual cover-ups. They did something like this with Trump's people in the "Russia" probe.
If they could think of a way to get Trump without setting a precedent to endanger duopolists of the Republican or Democratic stripes, then they'd do it.
I don't think the law has anything to do with these calculations. Nor does the naive zeal of the "base" of either party. It's about what the two wings of the duopoly can mutually get away with.
One "wild card" here is that many duopolists have, among their constituents, members of the Trump "base." They are under pressure to pretend to share the concerns of that base. I suppose there's something similar going on with the Democratic end of the duopoly - they have to pretend to care about the issues raised by fervent and sincere progressives/socialists/etc.
So I suppose there's a risk that, fearing to alienate their respective bases, the duopolists may make gestures which contradict the overall interests of the duopoly. The key word is "gestures" - try to dupe the base into thinking you're doing something. Maybe some angry Tweets would work, or some tub-thumping speeches or confrontational Congressional hearings.
Too late. What do you think the two impeachments were? They had no basis in fact for anything of substance. On the other hand we're supposed to overlook real wrongdoing from others in government just because?
Is this really the crucial point? Suppose that Trump is tried and convicted either for inciting insurrection or for one of the various frauds for which he is under investigation, for which the evidence appears to be rather bad for him. If he is serving a prison sentence will he (a) be able to run; (b) be able to serve if elected?
"disenfranchising tens of millions of voters"
Imposing an arbitrary disqualification on *any* candidate disenfranchises *all* the voters - including the voters who want to vote against that candidate. If you can't vote *for* a candidate, you can't vote *against* him either.
People seem to forget this point in the debate over arbitrarily disqualifying candidate from third parties.
(For those who deny that third party candidates are arbitrarily disqualified, I'd advise you to say on planet Zork and allow us to discuss life on planet Earth.)
Oh, well, that was supposed to be its own comment, not a reply to Bill Poser.
So I've been disenfranchised because I want to vote for Arnold Schwarzenegger, but he's been arbitrarily disqualified?
Sure, if you think the Constitution of the United States is arbitrary.
One difference with third parties is the at the very least the Constitution doesn't *require* that votes for them be thrown out - and there's a good argument that the Constitution *forbids* such a thing, at least in Congressional elections.
House members and Senators are to be chosen by the people, subject to a few explicit disqualifications (e.g. age, citizenship and not joining the Confederate army), but the enumerated grounds of disqualification do *not* include membership in a third party. So expression unius est exclusion alterius, which if it be not good Latin is at least good English, that if the Constitution doesn't disqualify you for Congress you can be elected by the people.
Prior to pre-printed ballots, which showed up about the time of the Civil war, the right to vote was understood to be the right to vote for anyone you damned well pleased. The convenience of pre-printed ballots was, predictably in retrospect, perverted into the power of incumbent government to restrict who you'd be allowed to vote for.
I'd personally hold it to be a violation of the right to vote to refuse to count write in votes.
"If he is serving a prison sentence will he (a) be able to run; (b) be able to serve if elected?"
If it is not a qualifying offense under 14A section 3, then yes and yes.
Think practically, not legally.
Suppose NYS indicts and convicts him for tax fraud. He gets sentenced to five years in jail. NYS has no obligation to let him out to campaign or to run the Executive branch. They don't even have to let him be interviewed or talk to anyone but his criminal defense counsel.
So as a practical matter, he could not run.
"NYS has no obligation to let him out to campaign or to run the Executive branch."
Campaign, agreed.
"run the Executive branch", they probably do. Congress has the power of removal of a president, not NY. A state can't arrest a serving president, they probably cannot keep one in prison even for crimes committed before his term.
What if the acting president tells the secret service/FBI/army to spring him?
I am talking about him being sentenced before he begins office.
Or even held without bail pending trial (although they likely would not do that to Trump.) But certainly the trial would proceed.
Bored,
But he *could* run. Maybe not efficiently, but still . . .
If Trump were convicted and sentenced to prison, I have to assume it would be a minimum security location (due to his age, the absence of any physical harm that he himself personally did, etc). It would be an interesting constitutional question...the rights of prisons to severely limit access to prisoners (and to limit prisoners' access to outside media, tele-political rallies, etc) vs the interests our country has in having relatively-equal campaigns, and so on.
I, personally would absolutely pay for a pay-per-view of a Republican primary, to watch Trump square off in his prison outfit, against, say, Ted Cruz. I suspect that my overriding sentiment would be along the lines of, "Pity only one of them is behind bars." or, "Pity that the wrong guy is behind bars."
I think/hope God will forgive me for wishing Cruz ill will . . . though anyone who is thoroughly and utterly reviled by his own party deserves it. (Makes the Dem response to Manchin seem like an absolute love-fest.)
Saw Cruz at a candidate forum back in 2016. Never met anybody who gave off such powerful "slick used car salesman" vibes. So oleaginous he was practically leaving a grease slick on the stage.
Ted Cruz was almost the only politician I saw who was disliked by the other side, and absolutely hated by his own side. The only other example that comes to mind is (helpfully, on the other side of the aisle) Anthony Weiner, the disgraced former Congressman and registered sex offender.
As a libertarian and sometimes republican (Ron Paul), this would be highly entertaining to watch. It would as I said further assist a national device from Federalism as it exists to more State autonomy
Ron Paul was my personal pick for President in 2016, too. A pity he didn't reach the SC primaries. It says nothing good about the GOP that he did so badly, he's basically the only prominent figure in GOP politics who is at all respectable, without the "grading on a curve" that politicians routinely benefit from.
I'm assuming you mean Rand Paul. Ron didn't reach the Iowa caucuses in 2016.
Yup. Ron I actually DID get a chance to vote for.
The actual goal of this isn't Trump behind bars. Sure, they'd love that if they could pull it off, but it's not what they're aiming for.
They're trying to produce a pretext for elections officials in some states to deny Trump ballot access on the basis that he is ineligible for the office. Since it's never going to be a blowout election, they only have to pull that off in one or two states Trump would have carried to rig the outcome.
Brett, I think you're being a bit unfair. (I say this as a liberal Republican who financially supported Trump in his first run, and later became a "never again" Trumper.) Sure, a few people are playing 3 dimensional chess, and are thinking about how to disqualify Trump from running again. But, I think the VAST majority of the "fully investigate and see where the investigation leads" group simply want powerful people to pay for their bad deeds. Are you really saying that, if Trump did commit felonies (something that is certainly possible, although far-from-proven at this point), he should be immune from prosecution? You always struck me as a law-and-order-type guy, and I'd hate to think you're making an exception just for Trump.
Ringleaders vs useful idiots. The vast majority can drink the Koolaid, and the people serving it up still know it to be poison.
"Are you really saying that, if Trump did commit felonies (something that is certainly possible, although far-from-proven at this point), he should be immune from prosecution?"
Hell, no. I don't think there's even a constitutional case for Presidents to be immune from prosecution while in office: Members of Congress have considerably less immunity than that, and it was granted explicitly, I refuse to agree that Presidents got such complete immunity by mere implication. (And I don't see where it's implied, either.)
I'm saying that there's no basis for thinking Trump DID commit the alleged felonies, and that the allegations are pretextual to make for an excuse to rig the 2024 election by denying him ballot access.
Ah, I understand. We were speaking past each other a bit. You are limiting your point to investigations of Jan 6. While I was making a broader point about all his past criminal conduct (IMO, of course...no completed investigation has been done yet).
I'll only add that, if I were you, I would not be so certain about Trump's innocence re Jan 6. And the reason for this is that so many of his associates (and most fervent supporters) are accidentally doing their best to make Trump look guilty. By pleading the 5th. By refusing to comply with lawful subpoenas. To a lot of Americans, those are actions of guilty people (or, people protecting friends who are guilty). Hell, Trump himself believes that people who take the 5th are mobsters and/or are guilty...that innocent people do not take the 5th.
Hillary Clinton (re Benghazi) said, essentially, "Regardless of the rightness or wrongness of what I've done in the past, I'll go to Congress, be put under oath, and answer any fucking question you have for me about that horrible event." I did not like her as a politician, but I had mad respect for her doing that. Hour after hour after hour after hour of testimony.
Just imagine if Michael Flynn and Mark Meadows had the integrity and the character to stand up and say, "You don't even need a subpoena. Re Jan 6, I did nothing wrong, I think that Pres. Trump did nothing wrong, and OF COURSE I will be happy and proud to stand in front of you, answer any of your questions. In fact, I insist on it...Donald Trump's good name *demands* that the American people (and, you, Congress, the people's representatives) must find out exactly what did and did not happen on Jan 6 and on the week(s) preceding. Thank you for not burying this under the rug...I look forward to giving my testimony."
I mean, Trump's subordinates *could* say something like that. They *could* cooperate. They *could* try to get the truth in front of the American people. God know, if/when they do testify, it will be in front of a national audience. But, yet, they are NOT doing this. They are using the legal system to draw things out, to evade telling the truth to Congress and the American people. Is that really what innocent people do? If Trump is innocent and they have evidence or information that shows his innocence; is that really what his loyal supporters would do?
Maybe. But color me cynical.
You do know that anybody who voluntarily speaks to the police with a prosecutor out to get them is an idiot, right? After the stunts the FBI pulled over the last 5 years, anybody in Republican circles who didn't yell "5th amendment" and lawyer up the moment the feds started asking questions must be suicidal.
Not so long ago they raided journalists at Veritas, and then leaked privileged communications to the media! Did you miss that somehow? That's the FBI we're dealing with, not the guys you remember from Dragnet.
No; you made it up. Nothing was leaked to the media.
The Feds Appear to Have Leaked O’Keefe’s Privileged Legal Communications to the New York Times
Perhaps you have some alternate explanation for how the NYT got their hands on this right after the feds seized Veritas records?
You know that the Tennessee Star is one of a series of astroturfed websites by some GOP grifters, not an actual news outlet, right?
The FBI does not "appear" to have done any such thing. The NYT had them before the FBI searches.
Ah, the usual, "That's on my 'neener neener' list, so I don't have to address it." response.
The NYT somehow got hold of privileged communications between Veritas and their counsel, immediately after the FBI seized devices those communications would have been on. Just as the NYT knew of the raid before it happened, so that they could have camera men on hand.
And you just don't want to rationally draw any conclusions from that.
The FBI is stunningly corrupt, has been for years. Hell, you know that: Why else do they refuse to record interviews, and instead 'memorialize' them with hand written notes written after the fact?
So that they can lie about what was said without being tripped up by a recording. You know that's why they do it.
The FBI is grossly corrupt. Internalize that, and start taking it into account.
They did indeed publish (not "got hold of") the communications "immediately" after the FBI seizure. You understand that this is an argument against the conspiracy theory, right? It's much too soon. The FBI didn't have time to process those devices yet, let alone manually search them to identify interesting material.
And yet, that's not what they did. Instead of invoking the actual 5th amendment privilege, they invoked the nonexistent executive privilege.
Hell, Michael Flynn DID exactly what santamonica wanted. He then got investigated, had a very laughable perjury claim filed against him complete with withheld evidence to exonerate him and had YEARS of his life fucked with.
Yeah, why didn't he do that AGAIN?
I don't think Flynn did exactly what santamonica wanted. Santamonica wanted people to tell the truth, not lie.
That is very true since the FBI does not record interviews and relies on their hand written notes of the interview to create a report. The FBI will charge a person with a crime under 26 USC Sec. 1001 if they believe that the version of the interview, as stated in the report, does not match the evidence they collect. This becomes an easy way for the FBI to manufacture a crime. Best not to agree to an interview unless you can record it.
Best not to agree to an interview at all without a lawyer. But, yes, if they won't let you record it, then that's an extra red flag that you should not be talking to them.
James Michael Curley was elected from prison.
Eugene Debs ran for President from prison.
James Michael Curley was a corrupt Democrat in a highly Democratic city, Boston.
Eugene Debs ran as a protest and had no chance of winning.
Trump could run from jail, but it would be a major handicap.
Dunno. Biden ran from his basement.
"Russiagate"??
An insurrection is generally a violent overthrow of the government. Is there any evidence that Trump incited any of the violence?
No. There is not. But, the WaPo and NYP, are going to keep repeating the words "incite and insurrection" for as long as Hillary and her minions instruct them to do so.
That should have read "NYT" not "NYP".
Wait, what?!? You're blaming this on Hillary Clinton. Oh, that's precious.
Well, bless your heart. I think you missed a golden opportunity to instead blame the Jew-run media conspiracy. Please feel free to post again, to update your hysterical (in the funny, and in the insane, sense of the word) attribution of blame/credit.
Well, her attorney, Marc Elias, is one of those pushing this theory.
You mean, besides his written and oral speech?
The arguments I've seen that Trump incited violence at the capital have struck me as rather weak.
The social media posts leading up disagree with you.
There was no written or oral speech that could lead anyone to think he led anyone to incitement. You’re just flat out dishonest.
That's not what the insurrectionists themselves said.
And again, your position is insane. He and his flunkies claimed the election was being stolen by a mass conspiracy. That would justify insurrection, if it weren't just a set of bald-faced lies.
Yeah, and what would Hodgkinson have said about what Bernie really wanted? You might as well claim that the dog was the real mastermind of the Son of Sam killings!
Trump really does speak, and really said the stuff they're reacting to about the election being stolen.
You've really backed yourself into a corner, and are posting some wild shit now.
Bernie really speaks, too. So I guess Hodgkinson was right about what he wanted.
What DMN said below - you continue to be grasping at thinner and thinner reeds.
You're insisting that if somebody commits a crime, claiming it's what somebody else would want, that renders the somebody else guilty of the crime, even absent any communications to the criminal.
That's a pretty stupid stance, which you only use where it hurts your foes, never when the crimes are on your own side.
No. Nobody is claiming it's what Trump "would" want. The claim is that he openly requested it.
If he openly requested it, surely you can point out where he said, "Violently invade the Capitol building".
Stop the pathetic whataboutism. There is no evidence whatsoever of any relationship between Sanders and Hodgkinson, other than that Hodgkinson had previously rang some doorbells for him. This is the equivalent of blaming Sarah Palin for the Giffords shooting.
...which the Left had no problem doing, mind you.
And there was far more of a relationship between Sanders and Hodgkinson then Trump and the mostly-peaceful protesters of 1/6.
What relationship?
Hodgkinson volunteered on Sanders 2016 campaign.
As did how many tens of thousands of other people? This isn't like the campaign manager, the son of the candidate, and the son-in-law of the candidate doing something. This is a random guy who handed out fliers, nothing more. It illustrates that Hodgkinson wanted Bernie Sanders to win the nomination.
The evidentiary record may not be complete yet.
It’s far from complete. Better than 10k hours of video surveillance (taken at public expense) of the 1-6 protests being deliberately hidden from the public by Pelosi and Schumer (who control the Capital Police) as well as the Biden/Garland DOJ.
Refresh my memory, weren't you the one confidently predicting that the Arizona election "audit" run by cyber ninjas was going to turn up tons of election fraud?
The evidence on this page alone shows that you're a lying sack of shit, and nobody should believe a word out of your mouth.
Tell me Sherlock, how do you know about this conspiracy? Why should anyone believe you when you claim rioters weren't armed with weapons, and didn't throw fire extinguishers, and any of the myriad of other pure bullshit you've uttered?
Hayden is the same liar who keeps claiming that Pfizer hasn't been approved by the FDA.
Also, thanks to Blackman or the headline-writer for omitting mention of the grand jury and speaking of the *prosecutor* indicting someone. We know that grand juries are ciphers, about as influential in reality as the parliament of the old Soviet Union - existing only to ratify the decisions of those who *really* hold power.
I don´t have an opinion on the op-ed of Professor Tribe and his colleagues regarding 18 U.S.C. 2383. Prosecuting former President Trump for his speech to the crowd on January 6 may raise First Amendment concerns under Brandenburg v. Ohio, 395 U.S. 444 (1969).
I think a more straightforward avenue for Trump´s criminal liability is 18 U.S.C. 1512(c)(2), which prohibits corruptly obstructing, influencing or impeding an official proceeding, as well as attempting or conspiring to do so. Multiple federal courts have opined that the Joint Session of Congress that convened on January 6 to certify the Electoral College vote was an “official proceeding¨ within the meaning of subsection (c)(2). See, e.g. https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.dcd.226726/gov.uscourts.dcd.226726.558.0.pdf
Apart from whether Trump is vicariously liable for the actions of the mob that breached the Capitol, it seems undeniable that Trump and his minions´ doggedly importuning Mike Pence to unilaterally reject various states´ electoral votes, based on non-existent authority and upon a demonstrably false factual basis, evinces a corrupt attempt or conspiracy to at least influence the electoral vote certification. Professor John Eastman, the principal architect of the plan, has invoked his constitutional privilege against self-incrimination with the House of Representatives January 6 investigating committee. That indicates his concern about criminal culpability for his actions.
I think you need to look at what "corruptly" means in this context, legally speaking, and then think again.
Here's a clue: If you ask the prosecutor to drop charges against you, that's "influencing" an official proceeding. If you bribe or extort the prosecutor to drop charges against you, that's corruptly influencing it.
It's perfectly legal to obstruct, influence, or impede an official proceeding, so long as you do so by lawful means. Merely asking somebody to do something you think they're lawfully entitled to do isn't legally "corrupt", even if you're mistaken about the law.
Have you read Judge Mehta´s opinion? ¨It suffices for present purposes to say that to prove that Defendants acted ´corruptly,´ the government, at least, will have to show that they acted with consciousness of their wrongdoing.¨
Whether Trump knew that Pence was without authority to unilaterally reject electoral votes presents a factual question for a properly instructed jury to determine. That Trump knew the factual premises from which he and Eastman, among others, were operating vis-a-vis Pence -- that Trump had in fact won the election -- were patently false is not subject to reasonable dispute. Trump and his minions litigated that question in dozens of court and came out on the short end of the stick.
There is ample evidence from which a jury could find that Trump acted corruptly in conspiring/attempting to influence the certification of electoral votes.
Was Pence without authority to reject the slates? From some reading of the ECA, he can do so - sending the slate back to the state delegation in the House (or the House as a whole) to vote on. Similarly, the House can vote to reject (or just plain replace) any slate of Electoral votes.
It would have been horribly corrupt of Pence to have done so, but it isn't necessarily outside of his technical authority.
Yes. This has been yet another episode of Simple Answers to Stupid Questions.
No reading of the ECA (or the Constitution) gives the Vice President any discretion of any sort.
I would say that Pence had about as much authority to reject the slates, as Gore had authority to demand a recount after the challenge period was over in 2000. Which is to say that sometimes courts like PS legal arguments.
We'd be living in a very different country if BS legal arguments never prevailed.
No, Brett, your made-up ideas about the law are not how things work.
Oh? And yet, there are lawyers that are quite willing to go to court to make the arguments to the contrary.
Can you actually back up your unjustified assertions? Or are you relying on your demonstrated level of honesty and expertise from your comment history hear to attempt to convince people?
Haha 'I can find a lawyer to argue it, so that means it's true' is a hilarious take.
I didn't say it meant it was true; that's something you just made up out of thin air. But once we move past the strawman - the only man you can actually win an argument with - there is a point.
If you can find professionals on the subject that are willing to state that a certain point of view is plausible, then it's considered plausible by professionals in that field. It hasn't been litigated anywhere, so there is not a definite answer.
You, like DN, are just being idiots and mouthing off rather than actually attempting to present arguments for your side. If you were capable of presenting an argument of substance, you'd do it - you do it elsewhere. But you aren't so you rely on strawmen and distractions. It's pretty pathetic.
Put this one in the "Be careful what you wish for ..." file.
Discovery would be more entertaining than watching the Lefty weeping and gnashing of teeth over the Kenosha Rittenhouse verdict.
That would mean all of those 1/6/21 video tapes that Nancy has been hiding in her wine cellar for some odd reason would finally be open to the world. Or more likely "accidentally" erased, by a freak magnet accident.
Of course the "Legacy" print and broadcast media wouldn't cover it any more honestly than they did Rittenhouse or Waukesha.
Would the clingers put Trump Litigation: Elite Strike Force on the case again?
Man, your fan fic is weird.
Any charge which requires participation of others to be a crime would open up the entirety of the incident to discovery. This is why the only charges being brought are those which do not require others to participate. It fully limits what the defendants can argue in their own defense.
What are you talking about?
And how did you manage to figure out the secret real facts?
The weird part of all of this is that you hang out on a lawyers blog and don't know basic things about the American legal system like how discovery works.
Hasn’t Trump already been tried and acquitted of the same offense as a “high crime and misdemeanor” (crimes)?
Per the text of the constitution, that is no bar to criminal prosecution.
Impeachment is not a criminal procedure.
" Indeed, if any of the Section 3 litigation makes it to the Supreme Court, I think the Department of Justice would have to decline to take a position on whether Trump is disqualified from the presidency. "
That. ladies and gentlemen, is how one lands, and stays, at South Texas College Of Law Houston.
And becomes the future of conservative legal academia and a mainstay at the Volokh Conspiracy.
Carry on, clingers.
Trump did nothing wrong.
Prosecuting one's potential rival for the highest federal office in the land smacks of Banana Republic-dom.
If telling the Russians they should investigate actual criminal activity of the son of a political opponent is "messing with elections" then actually prosecuting a political opponent on trumped up charges definitely fits the bill.
Also Kamalalalala-ding-dong blames her bad optics on not being a white man. It couldn't be that she is stupid and unfit for the position....That is what happens when you get affirmative action picks for positions that ought to be merit based.
I don't support a criminal prosecution, but that leaves us with the problem that so many people are delusional in their belief that Trump did nothing wrong that he could be elected. The proper thing was to impeach and convict, but the Republicans didn't have the courage (*) to do it.
(*) Most know Trump did some very wrong things and I would bet the house he would have been convicted in a secret ballot or at least if no senator was ever up for another election.
"I would bet the house he would have been convicted in a secret ballot or at least if no senator was ever up for another election"
You're getting the duopolists all excited now, you tease.
Trump did nothing wrong.
Most know Trump did some very wrong things
Name them. Cite your evidence.
On the call with Georgia election officials Trump claimed 1) over 250,000 ballots were mysteriously added added to the rolls without signature checks resulting in at least 200,000 forged signatures, 2) over 18,000 voters were allowed to vote without an address on file, 3) after a water main break, illicit ballots were brought in suitcases and counted, 4) Over 5000 dead people voted in Georgia and 18,000 in Michigan leading to 139% of the people in Detroit voting.
It's all 100% batshit crazy designed to steal an election he lost and that is very, very wrong.
Or, the election was stolen from him, and you are the delusional one.
Ah, Bruce the Liar wishes to have the alias of Bruce the Idiot.
I suggest a compromise: Bruce the Lying Idiot.
And yet tou people excused Kevin Clonesmith
Tu quoque must be your specialty. And no, I don't excuse Clinesmith.
Other than the fact that it was the Ukrainians, and that he told them they should announce an investigation, not investigate anything — let alone criminal activity — and other than the fact that he didn't just "tell" them that, but illegally coerced them to do so by withholding funds he had no authority to withhold… well, other than that, your statement was accurate.
And Biden holding up a billion dollars until Ukraine fired a prosecutor who WAS investigating the oligarch behind Burisma and replaced him with one who dropped all investigations and charges a month later is, of course, nothing. THAT is just "foreign policy"
Biden didn't do that. Obama did that, at the behest of Europe.
It was done because the prosecutor was delaying the investigation of Burisma.
And his successor did not drop all investigations.
Amazing to watch a right-wing fiction be formed in real time.
Biden bragged about it.
A more likely scenario to discus is Pelosi
Pelosi is wanting to interview sitting members of Congress. I would guess no one will cooperate willingly, can she subpoena them, and use the force of law to coerce compliance? in 10 months Pelosi transforms from hunter, to hunted. Will she risk it?
If you want Jan 3 answers, not looking at the Speaker of the House is deriliction of duty. Congress controls Capital Security. That means Pelosi dropped the security ball.
Remember when Pelosi stoked race riots in 2020? Yeah that was extra special. Perhaps it is time to charge her and hold her accountable...
As that didn't happen, it's a stupid point. Then again, idiots like yourself are heavily represented in the TrumpGOP caucus so they likely believe the same bullshit you do.
So why didn't Pelosi provide adequate security for Jan, 6th?
The real conspiracy is Pelosi etal, ignoring security, on purpose.
Because she's a member of Congress, not a security guard?
You need to do more research, lest you look foolish. Pelosi was in charge of security in only the most formalistic, nominal sense.
Capitol Police did not listen to the FBI, and that was a screw up. But you're spouting nonsense someone fed you.
The Capital police answer to Congress. Congress controls. Pelosi controls. Capital police were denied full National Guard presence because Pelosi vetoed the idea. The Capital police were not in riot gear because Pelosi claimed it was bad optics.
All the while orchestrating exactly the optics she wanted. A mob at the Capital.
A communication Dump of Pelosi and her Cheif of staff would reveal all of this. Guess who is not getting investigated.
President of the United States has Zero influence on Capital Security
Capital police were denied full National Guard presence because Pelosi vetoed the idea
Utter bullshit.
Your 'controls' argument is like saying because the President controls the military, he's responsible for every military infraction.
All the while orchestrating exactly the optics she wanted. A mob at the Capital.
Oh, so the issue is not that you don't understand the authorities here, it's that you have a pretty far out there story you need to believe.
it's that you have a pretty far out there story you need to believe.
Less "far out there", than the President conspired with with White Nationalist to Hang the Vice President on the Capital Steps.
But Nobody is investigating the Speaker of the House. The person that sat in on numerous intelligence briefings concerning the Jan 6 protest.
It doesn't really matter whether it was Pelosi or her minions that rejected National Guard support.
It's well documented, including in the Department of Defense timeline that national guard support was repeatably offered and rejected.
Which tell us two things, that Trump was not planning an insurrection, an that Pelosi was not anticipating one.
Back when there was no reason to expect a violent insurrection, they didn't accept offers for additional traffic control folks.
And no one on here thinks Trump had a well-drawn out plan for an insurrection.
This is a very dumb strawman.
In a formalistic sense, okay. In the same way that the President controls the Post Office and is responsible when my Visa bill doesn't arrive, but sure.
No. Stop lying. Pelosi is one of 535 members of Congress. She does not control the Capitol Police.
Stop lying… again. None of this happened. Pelosi doesn't have any authority over the National Guard, and didn't veto anything at all.
Once again: Pelosi is not the chief of the Capitol Police. None of this happened.
Pelosi was in charge of security in only the most formalistic, nominal sense.
The Speaker of the House has the power.
formalistic= enumerated power
'nominal sense' = ambiguous qualifying language that shape shifts the more you are proven wrong.
The Speaker of the House does not have the power. You've been lied to again.
It doesn't really matter.
National Guard help was offered, and refused, by whomever was in charge of security at the Capitol.
And since the constitution says that officers of the House, including the Sargent at Arms are elected, I presume the answer to the Speaker or Majority leader, or at least are elected by the same people.
You can't deny the fact she stood up and said there ought to be more violence in the street and that when there are ongoing riots and you are the SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE that doesn't carry a decent amount of weight that incites people to further violence. Or at least you can't deny it if that is the standard to which you want to hold Trump.
And all the social media posts saying Pelosi is why people were protesting sure are damming!
That you're trying to make this parallels shows how many facts about Jan 06 you've decided to ignore.
Pelosi tweeted thst "Trump and his stormtroopers must be stopped".
The "stormtroopers" were DHS agents protecting a federal courthouse.
They were armed personnel without identification badges of any kind.
The "stormtrooper" remark was because of the lack of identification. That isn't how law enforcement is expected to behave in America.
Get your fucking facts straight.
I've seen the picture. They had identification badges, it was clearly visible if you weren't relying on the reduced resolution videos that were distributed to persuade people otherwise.
They aren’t looking at Pelosi, because she hand picked the 1-6 investigation committee, in violation of House rules. The two Republicans on the subcommittee were not selected by the Republicans, as required by House rules, but by Pelosi. Indeed, by House rules, the subcommittee doesn’t have any subpoena power whatsoever, because subpoenas require consultation with the subcommittee co-chair, selected by the minority party leadership. Their selections for the subcommittee were all rejected by Pelosi.
The House rules say nothing about Republicans selecting anything. It talks about consultation. Which is a word, with a meaning.
So, you're saying that, come 2023, you'd be cool with the Republicans picking the Democratic committee members for all the important committees?
You understand that it's most Republicans who refused to serve on the committee, rather than Pelosi picking all the Republican slots on the committee, right?
You extend an extraordinary amount of undeserved grace to people who typically contribute nothing but lies and conspiracy theories.
I'm impressed.
Merry Christmas to you, David.
Pelosi has violated the rule that established the authority. The so-called committee is not properly constituted because Pelosi refused to seat Republican members.
Repeat yourself all you like:
You're still wrong. The House decided upon the rules for the committee, and those rules were followed.
Except McCarthy did name Republicans to the committee.
Pelosi refused them.
So, again, cool for Republicans to pick the Democrats for all committees in 23?
The 1/6 Committee likely does not even have subpoena power due to not being an actual select committee under the rules.
Naturally your comment is at best a deliberate obfuscation of the truth, at worst it's your usual bullshit and lies.
Nice to know that you're consistent with your dishonesty.
Describe it differently then.
Minority leader named Republicans.
Speaker said no.
Pelosi objected to TWO specific members who are likely to be witnesses to the committee itself, and who were deeply involved in spreading the lie at the root of the insurrection attempt in the first place.
Jordan and Banks had no business investigating their own behavior. The rest of the GOP refused to serve.
As I said previously: you're dishonest. More appropriately, since I'm quite sure you're aware of the actual truth, you're just another lying cultist.
Zero evidence they were involved at all. Questioning the results of an election is not a new thing --- again, Dems have done so in every lost election since 1988. They did, literally, nothing illegal or unethical.
It is always impressive how 2020 is the first completely unquestionable election. Especially since so many Democrats claimed Russia helped Trump win in spite of a total lack of evidence. I do love your sheer inconsistency, though. It is adorable.
When Pelosi starts deciding who the minority can name, then the minority should not participate. That is not how Select Committees work. The Speaker should have no decision on this and you will, no doubt, bitch when retaliation occurs when the GOP regains control.
I'm not a Democrat.
If you'd like to offer up suggestions for the manner in which Congress should conduct itself, I'm quite sure you're capable of doing so. I doubt your opinion will matter, but you can try.
We all get it: you don't understand that the GOP itself is the cancer which required the circumstances of appointment and approval to be what they were. A large portion of them are actively lying to Americans about what happened on that day, and about the "stolen election" and a myriad of other lies which began long before the election was even held, based on nothing more than licking Trump's wrinkly balls.
When one political party is going to engage in coordinated efforts to prevent the winner of an election from being certified, they cannot be freely permitted to "participate" in investigating how to prevent such an event from ever occurring again by naming whomever they wish to the Committee.
You can claim that Jordan and Banks weren't involved in what happened on the 6th, but you're fucking full of shit because they were completely involved in spreading the lie that the election had been stolen in the first place, which was the point of the January 6th assembly, riot, and insurrection efforts.
So cut the bullshit. Don't pretend like that isn't the truth because it's the GOP/Trump doing it, because we both know that you'd be shouting from the rooftops if it was the Democrats/Biden behaving as they (GOP/Trump) did.
One key difference between you and I is that I'm capable of calling this shit out regardless of political party.
One of the things that I've not seen discussed in American legal history pieces is the origin of the name "President." It's ubiquitous now, but at the time, I think it was unique among nations. (Haven't looked closely.) There were councils in each colony, though, whose business apparently mostly consisted of negotiating trade matters with London, and some of them were headed by a "President" (which makes sense, since a committee can be presided over -- literally, sitting in the first place). Since it's a novel term, perhaps the fact that the head of the committee or council would be an officer of the committee when negotiating beyond the walls, perhaps a few of the original public meaning-receivers/creators had that in their heads. Just a thought.
Mr. D.
Apparently "president" was interchangeable with "governor" in all its uses (business, government, and social circles) since roughly the 16th century. The American usage was the first for a head of state.
conspiracy to forcibly "prevent, hinder or delay the execution of any law of the United States.
Sure sounds exactly like what Biden is doing at the southern border.
That's because you're stupid.
A prosecution of Trump wouldn't disenfranchise any voters, while the insurrection Trump attempted certainly would have- and about 7 million more than the fake disenfranchised Blackman is fretting about.
Ha! Ha! Ha!
Please please. prosecute Trump for insurrection. DC would melt down..the media would be hitting incredible ratings. Given how much the Feds have screwed up the covid response and caused inflation the dems might view this as the distraction they need (along with some RINOs). It would be most entertaining..and likely speed up the national divorce.
Yes, I lived in DC back in 2000 to 2005. My company was a dependent in a racial discrimination lawsuit. Our attorney, one of the best white collar litigators in the country, warned us that a typical DC jury is highly biased against conservatives and Republicans. They tend to be full of angry black people who are furious at all the gentrification. They would want to go to skip the trial and go straight to the penalty phase if Trump was the defendant.
It's hard to keep reading when the very first sentence contains such a blatant lie. The authors urged Garland to investigate Trump, not to prosecute him. That difference is, as Joe Biden would say, a big f'ing deal.
A lie implies that Josh knows better but based on his history of reading comprehension I'm not sure.
Luckily, as you can tell from the comments, no one really listens to what Blackman posts.
Nobody seems to have noticed that Josh gets his facts wrong in his very first sentence, probably because the New York Times has a payall. A non-paywalled copy of the opinion piece is available here: https://archive.ph/aciFY
As you can see, the writers are arguing for an investigation, not for prosecution. They write that publicly available evidence of wrongdoing, “may not be enough to convict the former president, but it is certainly enough to require a criminal investigation.”
And given the lack of an edit function on this site, I should really learn to check for new comments (specifically Leo Marvin's comment immediately above) before hitting submit.
I can't tell you how many times I've had to remind myself, "refresh before posting." And I still never learn.
“may not be enough to convict the former president, but it is certainly enough to require a criminal investigation.”
Congress has no power to conduct a criminal investigation. That's just one reason the J 6 thingy is a fraud.
You really don't know what you're talking about. Referrals to the DoJ are a thing that exists.
But the committee, can only pursue information in the furtherance of its defined legislative powers.
Not investigating crimes.
You don't think if Jan 06 turns out to have been an insurrection that doesn't point to some laws that should be tightened up?
Objecting to electors and moving for a hearing is the Constitutional remedy for a dirty election. You may not agree with Trump's assessment of the integrity of that particular vote, but it was his prerogative - as well as the prerogative of like-minded Congress Kritters - to challenge via the prescribed procedure. By definition, NOT an "insurrection."
Storming the Capitol to try to kidnap or kill members of Congress and/or the vice president to prevent them from counting the votes is not "objecting to electors and moving for a hearing." By definition, insurrection.
Which didn’t happen. But keep dreaming. But let’s look at the hidden thousands of hours of video from the Capital that day first.
There is clearly established intent for violence in social media posts before and during the insurrection. It's very lucky that one Capitol Police officer managed to deflect the mob until the members and staffers were evacuated.
'Listen, the bullet proof vest blocked the bullet, so nothing happened and I did nothing wrong!'
Too bad they weren't Trump's social media posts.
No question some bad actors meant January 6th to be violent. Some of them might even have not been on the FBI's payroll.
But if you're trying to convict Trump, it's Trump you need to prove that of. Just like if you were trying to convict Bernie of the House baseball shootings, demonstrating that Hodgkinson meant to kill people wouldn't get you anywhere.
Telling change of thesis, Brett. Both not relevant to this particular line of replies, and not consistent with what you've been arguing.
Gonna throw Jan 06 tourists under the bus to defend Trump? Quite a change!
I don't personally know if Trump is chargeable. I sure as hell know he's responsible. These are his people, responding to stuff he said. He is the one playing with fire. There may be no specific laws contemplating the shit he did, but it was shit.
"Gonna throw Jan 06 tourists under the bus to defend Trump? Quite a change!"
No, I think there were bad actors that day, and there were tourists, and the latter far outnumbered the former.
And, as I say, some of the bad actors might even have not been drawing an FBI salary; A couple of the Whitmer kidnapping plotters weren't FBI, too.
"I don't personally know if Trump is chargeable. I sure as hell know he's responsible. These are his people, responding to stuff he said."
So was Hodgkinson, Sarcastro. So was Hodgkinson.
You're going to compare an extremely mentally ill man looking for an excuse to the Jan 06 insurrectionists?
Your arguments are getting increasingly inconsistent.
Sure, why not? Hodgkinson's efforts were actually more rational than the January 6th riot, if you assume the people planning it favored Trump.
Shooting a bunch of Republicans actually would have given Democrats the majority for a while. Hodgkinson just was a lousy aim, otherwise it would have worked.
But there wasn't any way breaking into the Capitol wasn't going to have exactly the effect it did have: Rendering electoral challenges radioactive enough that Trump would have to terminate his challenge to the election outcome. It was perfectly planned if THAT was the goal. It was insane under any other assumption.
If he had killed every single GOP member of Congress there, control of Congress still would not have flipped.
Remind me, Brett, when did Bernie urge his supporters to beat the crap out of protesters, and promise to pay their legal bills if they did? When did Bernie sit on his hands for hours while watching Hodgkinson's attack in real time on television, before finally, grudgingly, telling him to go home? When did Bernie tell Hodgkinson, after the attack no less, that he was special and that Bernie loved him?
No, Bernie condemned/condemns all such violence in no uncertain terms, both generally and Hodgkinson's in particular. His messaging and Trump's couldn't be more diametrically opposite. Equating them is preposterous.
"Real-estate mogul Donald Trump began his final campaign rally Monday by urging his supporters to be on the lookout for any protesters throwing tomatoes.
"So I got a little notice in case you see," he said in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. "The security guys, we have wonderful security guys. They said, 'Mr. Trump, there may be somebody with tomatoes in the audience.'"
The Republican presidential front-runner suggested that violence would be acceptable against any such protesters.
"So if you see somebody getting ready to throw a tomato, knock the crap out of them, would you? Seriously," he said. "OK, just knock the hell. I promise you I will pay for the legal fees. I promise. I promise. They won't be so much because the courts agree with us, too.""
And they would, because he wasn't suggesting they do anything a security guard couldn't do.
Of course a security could beat the crap out of anyone with a tomato in their hand. For that matter a security guard could blow the tomato holder's brains out. In both cases the security guard would face criminal prosecution and a ruinous law suit.
Please don't take legal advice from Donald Trump, Brett. He's the Eddie Haskell of throw-you-under-the-bus-ers after he tells you how popular you'll be when you set fire to the school.
If you're winding up to throw something at somebody on the stage, the security guards don't have to wait until you've finished your pitch to take you down.
Brett, you know perfectly well that taking someone down to prevent them from throwing a snowball is categorically different from beating the crap out of them.
There is clearly established intent for violence in social media posts before and during the insurrection.
You should have notified Pelosi. She had final say over any and all security measures at the Capital.
You point out she is the one aiding and abetting an insurrection.
That was delegated. As it always is.
You've bought a line.
It's Capitol, and: no. she. didn't.
Why do you post obvious lies like this? On what planet do you think either the Constitution or a statute says that any one individual member of Congress has final say over security measures there?
Capitol security is handled by the House and Senate Sergeants at arms.
The Senate Sergeant at arms reported at that time to McConnell, the House Sergeant at arms to Pelosi.
So, not alone at the top of that chain of command, but she was at the top of it.
Who wasn't in that chain of command? Donald Trump.
Wrong as always. Capitol security is handled by the Capitol Police.
The Capitol Police are overseen — not run on a day to day basis — by the Capitol Police Board. The Capitol Police Board has three members, the House and Senate Sergeants at arms, along with the Capitol Architect.
The House Sergeant at arms is elected by the House. Not by Nancy Pelosi. The Senate Sergeant at arms is elected by the Senate. Not by Mitch McConnell. And the Capitol Architect is nominated by the president — who, at the time, was… Donald Trump — and confirmed by the Senate.
The House Sergeant at arms is elected by the House. Not by Nancy Pelosi. The Senate Sergeant at arms is elected by the Senate. Not by Mitch McConnell. And the Capitol Architect is nominated by the president — who, at the time, was… Donald Trump — and confirmed by the Senate.
So we know Presidential appointed officers serve at the pleasure of the President.
We also know the Sargent of Arms, Senate, and House Serve at the pleasure of the Speaker and Majority Leader.
In other words are controlled by those to office holders.
You "know" many things that aren't so.
But of course even if your incorrect idea weren't incorrect, that would not justify the claim that Nancy Pelosi controls security at the Capitol.
I figure they were running through the halls calling out Pelosi's name and chanting hang Mike Pence due to their desire for a frank discussion.
Many of the facts you offer up appear to have been pulled straight out of your ass, so I have to ask:
Have you tried looking in there for those secret videos you somehow know about?
Man did you just get home from the bars? Or just delusional or stupid? Viking man was going to gore them?
Just for the sake of argument, assume that Trump does get tried and convicted of something -- anything that would almost certainly result in someone else being sentenced to prison. Is it conceivable that a former president of the United States would be imprisoned for anything short of murder, for example? How would he be kept safe in prison? Isolation? Secret Service? Private security?
From the Department of Turn-About-Is-Fair-Play-and-Do-Unto-Others-As-They-Done-To-You:
Attorney General Merrick Garland should indict Senator Mitch McConnell and have him arrested and put in solitary, indefinitely. And if anyone asks him why, and what the charges are, he should answer: "The Constitution doesn't say I can't indict, and arrest, Mitch McConnell. The Constitution doesn't even mention Mitch McConnell's name!" And stalk out of the room, ignoring all follow-up questions.
"Don't worry, though. I'm not REALLY a fascist. Sure, my posts clearly show me to be one, but still..."
Nothing says "defending democracy" like incessantly demanding the arrest of all your political opponents.
Except that's not what is happening.
You just got Blackman'd.
I think that it was a political mistake to include Marc Elias in this discussion. He was Hillary Clinton’s primary attorney during the 2016 election, and one of his junior attorneys has already been charged by the special prosecutor in his RussiaGate investigation. It appears likely that Elias will be cited at least as an unindicted coconspirator. According to that indictment, the Clinton campaign was the source of the fabricated Steele Dossier, and worked hard to get the FBI to use its Clinton campaign fabricated claims against Trump. And Elias appears to have been involved up to his eyeballs.
Maybe Elias is innocent as freshly fallen snow. But the fact that his law firm, that he was the lead attorney with, represented Clinton, and one of his subordinates has been indicted by the special prosecutor, makes this look highly political, and designed to clear the field for Clinton in 2024. His championship of this makes it almost certain that the proposal is completely politically driven, and most likely by the Clinton camp. Tribe has enough gravitas, that he could have maybe almost made the claim by himself and had it taken seriously. But Elias’ involvement just makes it look like a political maneuver.
Another lie from Hayden. Michael Sussman was a partner.
Something else. The House gets to determine the qualifications of its members. After the election next year, it is highly like likely that a significant majority of those elected To the House will be Republicans. They are the ones who will have the power to determine qualifications, and not Pelosi, and her thin current majority. That is because the House in every Congress gets to establish its own rules (differing from the Senate that has ongoing rules).
Continuing.
Could the Democrats prevent Republicans on the ballot for these claims of insurrection.? Not enough to matter. The states in which this might be successful just don’t send enough Republicans to Congress to matter here, , and it’s even worse if delegations vote by state. And it is likely that any Dems elected that way won’t be seated. 23 House democrats have already announced that they aren’t running for re-election, with the election still 10 months away.
There are parliamentary maneuvers you could use to pull it off; Our system really does depend on at least some degree of good faith on the part of the people running it.
But they're such that they'd never be able to permit 2024 elections to go forward, if they attempted them. And I don't think they think they're ready to pull off something like that, yet.
And I don't think they think they're ready to pull off something like that, yet.
Speculative future demonization can get you anywhere. That's why it's not healthy to indulge in.
What, you think I'm wrong about that? They are ready?
Look, the Overton window has shifted to the point that Court packing is now on the table.
Dodgy parliamentary maneuvers such as attempting to pass controversial measures in the wee hours without a quorum present have become routine, to the point where it hardly even gets news coverage when it's attempted.
The "nuclear option" has been exercised more than once. Do I have to explain to you just how Orwellian the nuclear option actually is, in terms of deciding that the Senate rules mean the opposite of what they clearly say, rather than just honestly changing the rules?
Serious proposals are being made to unseat election winners, and disqualify leading candidates. Heck, you're talking that up!
Nothing is more reasonable than thinking trends will continue, rather than stop on a dime or abruptly reverse. And the trend here is an ever increasing willingness to use dodgy ways to win, despite knowing that the losers will NOT accept that they were legitimate.
So, saying that, how could the Democrats dodgily turn a 2022 election defeat into continued control of Congress, without technically violating the Constitution? Easy.
Call each chamber into its new session early, unscheduled, with Republicans disproportionately absent on account of not getting the memo. Then ram through party line votes refusing to seat enough of the Republican winners that the Democrats retain their majority, and even expand it. Each Chamber IS, after all, the sole judge of the qualifications of its own members, and nothing says you have to have everybody present to start the new session.
Now, this is the sort of action which would kick off a civil war, and the Democrats aren't finished rendering the military's leadership politically reliable, and there might even be some residual scruples still floating around in DC. So I'm not expecting this to happen on this election cycle.
But neither would I be totally shocked, and I do expect something of this sort to happen sooner or later, because this IS the direction things are headed in. By Any Means Necessary is the Democratic party's slogan these days.
"By Any Means Necessary is the Democratic party's slogan these days."
Were you secretly in a coma for the last several years and somehow ignorant of the GOP behavior over the last election, and the attempts/lies by which they tried to unlawfully reject the will of the American people?
Maybe you're just ignorant of the remarks that Kevin McCarthy has made regarding his threats to kick Democrats off committees - presumably without cause, once the GOP gains the majority in the House?
But yeah, those fucking Democrats man. They're the ones who are truly evil. GOP assholes smell like roses and sunshine.
Given that Pelosi DID kick Republicans off committees for no reason, I have little problem with retaliation.
Swalwell should be kicked off all committees due to his inability to keep his dick out of Chinese Communist Party pussy.
"For no reason"
LOL.
Let's pretend for a moment that you aren't a complete dipshit. What business do the two members she rejected have being on the committee when they are material witnesses and participants in the conspiracy itself? Do people under investigation commonly participate in the investigating of themselves?
Idiot.
You're speaking to adults here. Most of us are capable of discerning the truth, and recognizing that your remarks have little to nothing in common with it.
Your fellow cultists though, definitely appreciate your continued fight to gaslight and utter bald-faced lies to those of us who believe in law and morality.
"Let's pretend for a moment that you aren't a complete dipshit. What business do the two members she rejected have being on the committee when they are material witnesses and participants in the conspiracy itself?"
The Democrats of the Committee feel citizens not involved AT ALL are "material witnesses". Their dragnet of who is "material" is nearly infinite.
"Most of us are capable of discerning the truth"
I'm not convinced you're capable of managing a bowel movement correctly.
"The Democrats of the Committee feel citizens not involved AT ALL are "material witnesses""
You're too stupid to waste any more time with.
Banks and Jordan BOTH were involved in the conspiracy to overthrow the election by refusing to certify the results. Jordan has admitted on television that he spoke with Trump multiple times on the 6th itself.
Neither of them can accurately be described as not being involved "AT ALL" you lying sack of fermented shit.
MULTIPLE Dem Representatives fought against certification in 2016, you insipid moron. That no Senator joined them hardly changes what they did.
Oh, Jeffords SPOKE to Trump on the 6th. Well, that certainly proves pure insurrection.
Again, there is literally nothing a Dem can do that you won't justify. Which is grand.
Just do not bitch when the rules you champion are no fun when you're subjected to them.
Actually, the fact that no Democratic Senator went along with the stupidity is entirely relevant.
I get why you'd want it to be otherwise though. Cultist and all.
I've responded to you at much greater length than you deserve, above about why Jordan and Banks had no business being on the Committee.
Go read that and shut the hell up.
I'll say this only once:
The minority members of a committee aren't there to be the people the majority thinks should be on the committee. That's the job of the majority members.
They're there to be the people the minority thinks should be on the committee.
So your explanation of why they shouldn't be on the committee completely misses the whole point of HAVING minority members. If they were going to be the people the majority wanted, THEN THEY'RE TOTALLY REDUNDANT.
Pelosi wanted the appearance of Republican participation in in the committee, to create the illusion that she wasn't conducting a partisan Star chamber. But she didn't want the reality of Republican participation, because it IS a partisan Star chamber.
So she picked the 'Republicans' herself, and the actual Republicans refused to participate in the farce.
She accepted 3 of the 5 people that McCarthy suggested.
Error #1: she kicked nobody off the committee. They weren't on the committee.
Error #2: there was a very good reason. You can't investigate yourself.
There is no evidence any such thing ever happened. And of course as soon as the FBI told Swalwell that they had evidence the staffer was a spy, he fired her.
"Error #1: she kicked nobody off the committee. They weren't on the committee."
Minority leader is supposed to have the right to name the members. Speaker Pelosi decided that...nah, I am not going to go for it.
Again, just do not whine when retaliation occurs. Which it will.
"Error #2: there was a very good reason. You can't investigate yourself."
Pelosi is more material of a witness than either of the people she struck off the list.
"There is no evidence any such thing ever happened. And of course as soon as the FBI told Swalwell that they had evidence the staffer was a spy, he fired her."
I do not care if he stopped fucking CCP pussy when the FBI talked to him. He is too stupid to be trusted with anything based on his comical inability to notice things.
Democrats seem to have a problem with being really tight with CCP members. Odd, ain't it?
You're mistaken. He has no such "right." The rules expressly say that Pelosi appoints the members, after consulting with the minority leader. Of course the vast majority of the time she's going to appoint who he suggests. But in this case he tried to sabotage the committee's work by naming two inappropriate choices out of five. She declined to name those two, but accepted the other three. Then he had a pretend tantrum and said that if she wouldn't accept all of his choices then none of them would serve.
(1) No. She didn't have anything to do with the insurrectionists.
(2) I didn't suggest that they'd be witnesses; I suggested that they'd be targets.
(1) Once more: there is no evidence he was having sex with her.
(2) How exactly does one "notice" whether someone is a spy? Do you check their ID badge for the word "spy"? Isn't the whole point of being a spy that you keep it a secret?
I mean, Trump and his team openly align themselves with Vladimir Putin against the United States, and that doesn't seem to bother Trumpkins. But an imagined connection here really upsets you. Could the letter after their name be the deciding factor?
"I mean, Trump and his team openly align themselves with Vladimir Putin against the United States, and that doesn't seem to bother Trumpkins."
Yes, Trump did so much to benefit Putin. Not sending arms to Ukraine. Severely curtailing fracking. Permitting a pipeline in Europe that had been opposed for years by the US.
Yes, TRUMP is the one who is Putin's puppet. Not the guy we have in the WH now who is doing pretty much everything Putin desires.
Someone hasn't read Powell v. McCormack.
Is this really where we want to be as a country?
Every POTUS, while in office (and before they were elected, no doubt), makes questionable decisions. POTUS Trump was a real estate developer in NYC. Think about that one for a second. If any of you have ever tried to do development in The Big Apple, you have to deal with the trade unions. You think all of those interactions are benign and aboveboard? They were not. I can assure you, POTUS Biden has made questionable choices as well. They all do. The decisions and actions they make are murky, and fall into that 'twilight' between legal, and not legal.
SM811 made a good point. In this country, we have a tradition where we do not attempt to weaponize the criminal justice system, and we do not criminalize political policy differences. We should keep that tradition, it has served us well for centuries.
As for investigating to see if indictment is warranted...this will harden attitudes and deepen divisions. Sometimes, the best course of action is to do nothing at all, and let passions dissipate. Is this one of those times? AG Garland will need to decide that one. I don't envy him.
I actually think investigation the attempts to overturn the vote of the people in 2020 is worth it. This isn't a policy spat, it's the edifice of our entire political system.
And the comments here show many willing to tear it down to own the libs. Those people are beyond reaching, but the more facts come out the fewer will be willing to just wink and nod to them.
"US Elections: Recent Poll Says 56% Believe Joe Biden's Victory Was Influenced By Cheating"
Do you mean that successful attempt to overturn the vote of the people, the obvious, rampant ballot harvesting and ballot box stuffing?
Well then, yes, we agree.
Do you mean the things that didn't happen?
Well then, yes, you're a fucking idiot.
Should there be a similar investigation regarding what Jack Marshall wrote about in his blog?
http://ethicsalarms.com/2020/08/01/ethics-quote-of-the-month-andrew-mccarthy-and-the-integrity-test-it-presents/
No. Because that's partisan bullshit. Obama didn't authorize anything - the FBI, based on evidence found again and again to be sufficient - raised the issue on their own.
And it was not predicated on Trump being an official foreign agent of Russia.
You don't get your own facts. Which is why you should not take Andrew McCarthy at his word, ever.
"Obama didn't authorize anything - the FBI, based on evidence found again and again to be sufficient - raised the issue on their own."
Evidence that was CLEARLY and obviously false. Obama should be forced to explain why HIS FBI pursued such utter nonsense. Or why he kept NatSec members in his admin who blatantly lied to Congress. Seems relevant.
I agree criminal punishment is a bad idea. However, attempting to steal an election (*) is not a policy difference. Trump should have been convicted by the Senate and barred from holding future office.
(*) I hope you aren't with the likes of Bruce Hayden and Jimmy the Dane who think Trump was the victim of election fraud. And, I hope you aren't with the likes of Ted Cruz and the oodles of other elected GOP officials who know Trump tried to steal the election but are too cowardly to do anything about it. These latter folks are establishing a precedent that could well put our democracy in great peril.
Counterpoint.
http://ethicsalarms.com/2020/08/01/ethics-quote-of-the-month-andrew-mccarthy-and-the-integrity-test-it-presents/
Your counterpoint is an example of the whataboutism fallacy (hypocrisy has no relevance to judging Trump's behavior). That being said, Durham is investigating the charges without interference from Democrats. Patience grasshopper.
Counter-counterpoint: Jack Marshall is a crank lawyer who knows nothing about the law and an "ethicist" who knows nothing about ethics. I mean, literally, he does not know what the word ethics means. He simply blocks any commenter at his site who points out that he is full of shit, which he always — always — is.
...so he's basically every progressive site?
Why not? Biden/Garland and the DOJ are the biggest F-ing joke in history. Kim and Putin are like "damn Brandon hold my beer".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Betteridge%27s_law_of_headlines
Go ahead Garland.
Let's get to the endpoint of the political prosecutions.
Writing about coup attempts.
http://ethicsalarms.com/2020/08/01/ethics-quote-of-the-month-andrew-mccarthy-and-the-integrity-test-it-presents/
- Andrew McCarthy
- Jack Marshall
We have only seen the very first faint glimmerings of the show trials the Democrats are planning to try and destroy their political opponents. The January 6th Committee have ignored and trampled every civil right and show utter contempt for due process in demanding extensive personal and social records for people accused of no crime whatsoever, and with no legal justification.
Strange how 'Reason' never sees any need to comment on that committee's destruction of civil liberties. A good quote from Dr. Sebastian Gorka:
Dr. Gorka's statement:
“This isn’t really about party politics, this isn’t about left v. right. This is about every American standing up to protect the U.S. Constitution. When you can take somebody’s private, personal communications and use them without due process, without a court order, without a crime being committed, as a political weapon against them, that is the death of our Constitution.”
"When you strike at a king, you must kill him." -Emerson
Speaking merely from the political point of view -- which is the only one that actually matters in this kerfuffle -- the Democrats have aimed to kill Trump twice now and missed both times. If they try a third time, they will practically guarantee an enormous sympathy wave vote for him, win or lose.
I don't know, I think the relentless attacks were productive from the Democrats' perspective: They succeeded in winning a Presidential election, not on the basis of people liking their own candidate, but instead by fanning the flames of hatred against the opposing candidate. They won a turnout election by tearing down the other guy to the point where their own base would show up just to vote against him.
It had been thought that you couldn't beat something with nothing, but that turned out not to be true.
Counterpoint: 2020 shows you can beat less than nothing with nothing.
You have to be fairly deep in TDS to think Trump was "less than nothing". Objectively he was a fairly good President. Negotiated the Abraham Accords, for instance.
Objectively he's the worst president in the nation's history, with the possible exception of James Buchanan.
So far Buchanan was consequentially worse, but "so far" does a lot of work. Let's check back around this time, 2024. Beyond that, Trump was dramatically worse by so many less tangible metrics, I give him the nod despite not yet knowing the full damage he caused.
Section 3 doesn’t apply to a President because the office of President is not an “office under the United States.” It’s an office ABOVE the United States?
Wasn’t the whole point of the Constitution that people wanted a republic, not a monarchy, a government of laws, not men?