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Why the 14th Amendment Does Not Prohibit Abortion
The argument made by Finnis, George, Hammer and others, that abortion is unconstitutional is not supported by text or history.
On Wednesday, the Supreme Court will hear oral argument in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization, in which the justices will reconsider the extent to which the Constitution protects a woman's right to terminate her pregnancy.
Because the law in question is incompatible with the "undue burden" standard as articulated in Casey and subsequent cases, much of the briefing focuses on whether Roe and Casey were correct as an original matter, and (if not) the extent to which principles of stare decisis counsel upholding, modifying, or overturning those decisions. I suspect such questions will dominate the oral argument on Wednesday.
Some Pro-Life advocates have more more ambitious aims. They argue not only that Roe was wrong as an original matter, but also that the Fourteenth Amendment, properly interpreted, protects unborn life and prohibits abortion. This is the argument made in this amicus brief filed in Dobbs on behalf of John Finnis and Robert George and this Finnis article in First Things. This was also an argument made by Texas in Roe, but not one that has ever attracted even a single justice's vote at the Supreme Court.
Last month, I was asked to debate this question with Josh Hammer by the University of Chicago student chapter of the Federalist Society and UChicago Law Students for Life. It was a fun event in front of a packed house. The remainder of this post (after the break) summarizes my argument for why the Fourteenth Amendment does not prohibit abortion.
In order to argue that the 14th Amendment prohibits abortion, one needs to establish two separate propositions: 1) That the unborn are "persons" within the Fourteenth Amendment; and 2) That the failure of a state to prohibit abortion constitutes a denial of either Due Process or Equal Protection. Both are necessary to sustain the argument, but in my view, the Constitution's text, structure and history do not support either.
Let us start with the text. The 14th Amendment extends Due Process and Equal Protection to all persons. Privileges and Immunities, on the other hand, are only extended to citizens, and only those "born or naturalized in the United States" are citizens. As most originalists believe it is the P-or-I clause that is the source of substantive rights under the 14th Amendment, an originalist could stop here and conclude that the 14th Amendment does not extend any substantive rights to the unborn.
Setting aside the P-or-I question does not help much, as there is little in text or history to suggest that the unborn are persons within the meaning of the Constitution. The term "person" is used throughout the Constitution, including elsewhere in the 14th Amendment, and regularly in ways that can (and have always) only applied to those already born, such as Section 2 of the 14th Amendment, which bases apportionment on "the whole number of persons," and makes reference to an individual's age, which has always been counted from birth, not conception.
Some counter that if "persons" is a capacious enough term to include corporations, then it can include the unborn as well. This counter fails on two fronts. First, corporations are not considered persons for all constitutional purposes, and second (as Ed Whelan notes here), the reason for sometimes considering corporations to be persons is because (as the Supreme Court has explained) corporations "are merely associations of individuals united for a special purpose." Accordingly, where denying constitutional rights to a corporation would require denying rights to a collection of individuals, those rights are protected, but otherwise they are not (which is why, for instance, not all rights protected by the 14th Amendment apply to corporations).
Yet even if one rejects these concerns, and concludes that the unborn are persons for purposes of the the Due Process and Equal Protection clauses, this still does not establish that states have a constitutional obligation to prohibit abortion.
Let's start with Due Process. There is zero evidence that this clause was ever understood to prohibit abortion, or any other private conduct. Unlike the 13th Amendment, the 14th Amendment only applies to state action (and, as the 13th Amendment shows, the authors of the Reconstruction Amendments knew how to draft amendments to reach private conduct). So privately performed abortions are not constitutional violations. Further, even if one sets aside the state action concern, and further assumes that the clause protects substantive rights, the Due Process Clause of the 5th Amendment was never interpreted or understood to impose any limitations on abortion within the District of Columbia or federal territories, even though all persons were subject to Due Process protections as against the federal government since the ratification of the Fifth Amendment.
If Due Process is a non-starter, is there are an argument that failing to prohibit abortion violates Equal Protection? The argument here would be that protecting born persons from private violence while failing to protect unborn persons violates each state's obligation to ensure equal protection of the laws. This argument seems more plausible on its face. It is not subject to the state action objection, nor does the federal government's failure to limit abortion prior to the 14th Amendment's ratification matter much as the 5th Amendment contains no Equal Protection clause. But while the argument here is more plausible, it still fails.
Even assuming that the unborn are persons within the Equal Protection clause, even as they are not persons for other parts of the 14th Amendment, there is a conspicuous problem that few states have ever treated abortion as fully equivalent to intentional homicide. Finnis and George note in their brief that the history of state restrictions on abortion in the 19th century is significantly greater than Justice Blackmun suggested in Roe (and that point is well taken). Yet even under their account, feticide was often not treated as the equivalent of intentional homicide (particularly prior to quickening, which was often treated as a misdemeanor, if prohibited at all). That is, states rarely adopted laws to protect the unborn equally with other persons.
Further, while many states considered and revised their abortion laws in the middle of the 19th century, both before and after the drafting and ratification of the 14th Amendment, there is no evidence that any of these debates or legal enactments were influenced in the slightest by a belief that the 14th Amendment (or principles of equal protection more generally) required treating feticide and homicide as equivalent actions, and they cite no evidence that any political figure or commentator thought that state failure to prohibit abortion in the late 19th century constituted a violation of the 14th Amendment. The propriety of abortion was a highly salient policy question in the post-bellum period, and yet no one sought to connect this question to the 14th Amendment, or to argue that the failure to treat feticide as equivalent to homicide was a constitutional violation. The absence of a single dog barking, in any state, is more than conspicuous.
The lack of any 19th century support for this reading of the Equal Protection clause is even more conspicuous because such a reading would greatly distort our constitutional structure. Most questions of life and death, and the extent to which actions that harm or kill others should be criminalized, are questions left to the states. Most states at this point have adopted the Uniform Definition of Death Act, but this is a choice the Constitution vests with the states, as is the choice to decide what sorts of acts constituted permissible killing (such as self-defense) and what acts do not. Within our constitutional system, different states can (and always have) defined the line between life and death, what actions constitute homicide, when killing may (or may not) be permissible, and so on. The liberty to make these choices in line with state preferences was not obviated by enactment of the 14th Amendment. Individual state answers to these questions have often converged, but due to the choices of policymakers in each state, and not federal dictate.
Note that the Finnis-George argument is not simply that section 5 of the 14th Amendment gives Congress the power to limit or prohibit abortion (a question I addressed here). Rather, their argument is that the 14th Amendment itself requires states to prohibit abortion -- to provide the unborn at all stages of development "equal protection of the laws." This argument not only lacks grounding in text, history or structure -- for the reasons I have tried to sketch briefly above -- it would also require a dramatic degree of federal judicial superintendence of state law and policy making to enforce. As they note, under their argument, "state homicide laws would need to forbid elective abortion," and this requirement would need to be enforced by courts in some fashion. Finnis and George suggest this could be done easily with little disruption, but their cursory argument on this score actually demonstrates the opposite, as even the "customary remedies" they propose require courts to rewrite state laws and mandate their enforcement.
In Federalist No. 45, James Madison wrote that the reserved powers of the states "extend to all objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and proprieties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State." However much the ratification of the 14th Amendment curtailed these powers and rebalanced our federal system, it did not make abortion unconstitutional nor did it require states to treat all abortion as homicide. No justice has (as yet) ever held otherwise, and no justice who considers himself or herself bound by the original public meaning of the 14th Amendment ever should.
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Maybe not as originally understood....
But I don't think it is a far flung interpretation using whatever modern justification you want to in order to say "life" includes the right not to have your brains sucked out summarily without due process.
The problem lies in what to do about miscarriages and IVF embryos currently in freezers. So an example I use is an over 45 year old woman can unassisted by medical professionals have an egg fertilized and the overwhelmingly most likely outcome is the embryo will die a quick death. So that sounds like child endangerment to me conceiving knowingly the embryo will quickly die because parents should not put their children in situations in which death is almost certain. The second most likely outcome is a child born with severe birth defects which is also child endangerment to put one’s child in a situation in which death or severe physical harm is likely.
Also can a parent just have a child frozen for years?? Can someone freeze their 17 year old child against their will?? That just seems weird that people believe life begins at conception and in America we just have frozen babies in storage.
" The problem lies in what to do about miscarriages and IVF embryos currently in freezers. "
It is not a problem, except from the perspective of anti-abortion absolutists who might wish to be principled and consistent. From the perspective of America's future, however, there is no practical problem in this regard. Pregnant women will be able to continue to jog in modern, improving America without risking criminal prosecution despite the aspirations of George, Finnis, and others.
There is no problem. An embryo sitting in a freezer is not in the process of becoming a walking talking human being. Once conception in the proper host has occurred though I think that is much different ethical, moral, and legal question. Life outside of the host will naturally occur given enough time. Artificially shortening that timeline (or aborting it) to end what is going to be a walking-talking-real life human is something that I think ought to be protected "life" in any sane society.
With an embryo conception has already taken place…you might mean implantation which iirc is when the medical community defines pregnancy as beginning. So the medical community doesn’t believe pre implantation embryos should be treated equally as implanted embryos because a large % never implant and no tears are ever shed for embryos that don’t implant.
An embryo growing in utero is going to becoming an independent sentient human given time. That is not true of something in a freezer. And there is a big difference between the two.
You beg the question of why that distinction makes for different analysis.
I mean, your whole argument is pretty shallow question begging, but this does present it rather starkly.
If this is the outcome you want, you're going to need a better rationale, and to lay a precedential foundation with a couple of cases that use that rationale. Which you are not doing a great job supporting with table pounding and sweeping assumptions.
Hokum bullshit
I think that's evidence the states do not believe a fetus is a person rather than evidence that fetus-persons can be protected to a lesser extent than other persons.
I don't think this line of argument amounts to much because have the states ever been given license to selectively not criminalize the intentional killing of a class of person. I couldn't imagine a state not criminalizing the intentional killing of only the poor (or only the rich) and have such a law pass constitutional muster.
I agree.
Prof Adler's piece is pretty good, coherent and logical until it gets to the paragraph beginning :
"Even assuming that the unborn are persons within the Equal Proteciton clause..."
at which point it careers off into the ditch, and there remains.
As you rightly say, the fact that no one ever regarded the 14th Amendment as protecting the right to life of the unborn is fully explicable by reference to the answer to the person question (ie not.)
However, once a fetus leaps over the person hurdle the equal protection conclusion follows directly from the text. The idea that the 14th leaves it a matter for States to decide which persons it will, and which it will not, protect from murder by its criminal law is just silly.
Overall Prof Adler's piece would be twice as effective if he simply conceded the equal protection argument - gaining points for honesty and avoiding losing credibility by advancing a silly argument on EP.
The "person" argument - especially the fact that 14A is littered with references to persons who must be post birth - is quite sufficient to knock down the Finnis et al argument.
Will you please donate to my charity that knits scarves and mittens for embryos in freezers around the country??
What do you think about the EP argument (assuming a fetus is a person), that a woman must be charged as a murderer for hire for having an abortion (and ditto the IVF clinic that destroys embryos and embryonic stem-cell researchers)?
If we stipulate that a fetus (and an embryo) is a 14A person then that person is entitled to equal protection by the State's criminal laws.
Thus we can substitute, say, "black person" for "fetus / embryo" to answer your questions. Are there circumstances in which not charging someone who kills a black person with murder, would not offend 14A ? Sure, sometimes - eg self defense, diminished responsibility, "it was an accident, officer" etc
But I'm pretty sure that a purely utilitarian argument - eg in this state we're never gonna get the jury to convict a white man for murder, for killing a black man, so let's go for something smaller than we could get a conviction on - would not pass 14A muster. Ditto substituting fetuses and mothers.
As for embryo researchers killing their stock, well if they deliberately kill then they'd need to fall back on the sort of defenses already mentioned.
But leaving the embryos to die of their own accord, not feeding them etc - well, maybe there are States where that woudn't be murder if you did it to your 3 year old or your aged Alzheimer Dad, and you might get off with a lesser charge.
So you would prosecute the Santorums for child endangerment for getting pregnant over 46 years of age when the two overwhelmingly most likely outcomes are a quick death for the embryo or a baby born with severe birth defects??
"no one ever regarded the 14th Amendment"
Past belief have never mattered when extending the 14A to woman, gays, and probably soon "trans". No reason we cannot revise our past beliefs in order to extend it to the unborn.
It's a common tactic to take an observation about what the law is, and use that to springboard an unprincipled take on what the law ought to be.
But it's also a nakedly unprincipled one. That's why it's not the argument anyone actually involved in the legal debate is making.
"have the states ever been given license to selectively not criminalize the intentional killing of a class of person"
How many lynchers of black people were punished?
Cal thinks black people = microscopic persons without brains or central nervous systems.
No doubt plenty of lynchers were not punished, but did those outcomes violate the EP clause?
Yes, because the Fourteenth Amendment was meant to secure the people against arbitrary outlawry (due process) and to provide them the equal benefit and protection of all laws for the security of persons and property (equal protection, 1866 Civil Rights Act).
This was the basis of the proposed anti-lynching bills promoted unsuccessfully in Congress by Presidents like Harding, and blocked by Southern filibuster.
It was one of those cases which gave federalism a bad name, unfortunately.
Every states have classes of homicide with different punishments depending on the class of homicide.
Abortion can just be classified as the lowest class with minimal punishment and of course prosecutors have discretion to not bring such charges.
Are any of the classes of homicide based on a classification of who the victim is?
Yes. Before New York abolished capital punishment, murder of a cop (but not murder of your next-door neighbor) was a capital crime.
That's a good example. However, it might pass muster because the murder of a cop gets extra punishment. In contrast with abortion, the question is whether the state can permit no punishment for intentionally killing a fetus-person.
This raises the interesting question of whether 14A is consistent with some kinds of distinctions. eg if you specify the punishment for murder by age of victim :
<0 = $10,000 fine
0-5 = 10 years in jail
6-12 = 20 years
12-19 = $20 fine
20-30 = 25 years
31-60 = 50 years
61+ = 10 years
you might argue that each person has the equal protection of the laws because each person (who survives) passes through each age
and at each age has the same protection as everybody else does when of that age.
Don't think it's a very good argument though.
It is pointless to attempt to reason with most anti-abortion absolutists, who argue not with regard to reason but rather from the perspective of one on a mission from god.
(Reliance on the supernatural is also what makes Finnis, for example, such an ardent gay-basher.)
Competent adults neither advance nor accept superstition-based arguments in reasoned debate, particularly with respect to public affairs. Right-wingers seem to perceive a need -- likely political and short-sighted -- to flatter superstition in this context, but the American mainstream should respect neither the superstition-based argument nor its proponent.
As the influence of religion continues to diminish in an improving America, superstition-based arguments with respect to abortion, gays, special privilege, taxation, and other issues will accompany them toward irrelevance.
I don't fault you for trying, Prof. Adler, but you are wasting your time in two ways. First, people who accept "just because" as a legitimate argument are unlikely to be swayed by reason. Second, the American culture war is not over but is has been settled, and the Finnis-George side has lost.
Tomorrow belongs to you, eh, Kirkland?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lv0jav4lNsk
Unless you are prepared to forecast a point at which our vestigial right-wingers are going to stop -- let alone reverse -- the tide of the American culture war, Cal Cetin, I see no reason not to expect the liberal-libertarian mainstream to continue to shape our national course of progress against the wishes, efforts, and whines of movement conservatives, as has occurred for so long as either of us has been alive.
You seem very timid, and unwilling to endorse something unless you think a the mob is behind it. Might = right to the likes of you.
And that's assuming you are able to predict the future course of events, which I'll stipulate you can do because you wouldn't claim such powers if you didn't have them, would you?
The race does not always go to the swiftest, nor the contest to the stronger, nor the debate to the better argument.
But that's how the smart money -- wagered by experienced, reasoning, smart people -- bets.
I expect the trajectory of American progress to continue along its recent (half-century or so) course, favoring reason, science, modernity, tolerance, progress, education, and freedom (at the expense of ignorance, superstition, backwardness, bigotry, authoritarianism, and insularity).
Predictable and observed conditions indicate it will become more difficult for those who prefer a different course to compete, let alone to prevail.
The Pirates and Orioles might meet in the World Series season . . . hell, the Pirates and Orioles might meet in the next Super Bowl . . . but my money will avoid the Pirates, the Orioles, and movement conservatism.
(It seems likely the Pirates and Orioles will play in the World Series -- not likely the same World Series, though -- before movement conservatives gain the upper hand in the American culture war.)
Would you tegsrd the idea that prospective immigrants and foreigners not on American soil generally shouldn’t be ill-treated as just superstition? Religious hokum? After all, Americans can and do kill them from time to time through war, covert action, etc. Doesn’t the fact that they’ve always been subject to being killed, they’ve never had any claim if they are, prove that all this talk about torture is a bad thing and whatnot is just pure unvarnished religious superstition? I mean, we killed tens of thousand of their children when we fire-bombed Dresden. We firebombed Hiroshima and Nagaski. Doesn’t that prove that to a rational person, they aren’t really human?
Thanks for a post that illustrates what many of us have believed and tried to publicize, that the anti-abortion rights movement does not want to just overturn Roe, it wants to prohibit abortion rights nationally without exception.
The day after Roe is repealed, and that day is coming, the anti-abortion rights movement will shift to enacting a nation wide ban. They will try to do this through the courts and through the Congress. When they succeed women will become second, maybe third class citizens. And the prisons which are now filled with non violent drug addicts will be filled with women who had miscarriages but were accused and convicted of having an abortion. And guess what, that is already happening, albeit on a tiny scale now.
There are men in prison convicted of rape when it was actually consensual sex.
Should we legalize rape?
Is there a Zygote American involved? We must be woke to our microscopic brethren!
Were prisons filled with "women who had miscarriages" before Roe?
You can burn down a forest if all your straw women were set on fire.
Since abortion in the first trimester is popular, I seriously doubt Congress would pass a law proscribing it. Without the filibuster, there might be enough votes to forbid states from doing so.
Josh R : Since abortion in the first trimester is popular...
And that, folks, is what we call an "understatement". 91 percent of all abortions are performed in the first trimester and 98.7 percent of abortions are performed during the first 20 weeks. To find Jimmy the Dane's right-wing porn of brains being "sucked out", you must go to the microscopically small number of late term abortions, whose percentage registers as effectively 00.00%.
But Jimmy needs an argument he can pretend to take seriously, otherwise he'll become one of those people who define abortion as anything impeding or preventing a fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus - a doctrine that perversely makes God the most prolific abortionist by far.
But when American's Taliban imposes their form of Sharia law on everyone, they (the people) will quickly learn that 98% of abortions are not Jimmy's ghoulish late-term porn - and the tiny number that are usually reflect tragic & horrible medical decisions grief-stricken women made with her doctor.
So what will the Right do then? Will they double-down on their fatwa once the issue is no longer the lurid cartoon of their own telling? Probably; that's how Taliban-types typically react. But it ain't gonna end well for them.
https://www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2019/04/raw-data-abortions-by-week-of-pregnancy/
I'm sure that data of yours is accurate. After all, even Gosnell took care to properly report gestational age when he performed his abortions. There's no way people would fail to accurately report these things just because they think elective abortion right up to birth is a right, and accurate statistics might impede it. [/sarc]
Good lord, attacking the accuracy of data you don't like with nothing but supposition and an irrelevant anecdote is unbelievably lame.
The data is notoriously inaccurate and planned parenthood employees have come out to say that publicly.
Measuring gestational age is notoriously subjective and no one who profits from abortion will be or has ever been honest about it.
Lack of precision is not the same as the systemic (and intentional) bias Brett is alleging based on nothing.
Brett Bellmore : "After all, even Gosnell.... (etc)"
Look, we get it Brett: The American public isn't remotely interested in going full-Taliban, as polls have consistently shown for over fifty years. With absolutely nothing at stake (Roe being there as a protective backstop) and constant lurid agitprop that applies to the tiniest (microscopic) percent of real women's choices, your side is still always in the minority by a sizable margin. No wonder you need your Gosnell bullshit and birther-style fake-news accusations against CDC data.
Attached is an article from the NYT about the medical decisions of real women (if you're willing to consider a topic completely foreign to you). A quote :
"A few weeks after Texas adopted the most restrictive abortion law in the nation, Dr. Andrea Palmer delivered terrible news to a Fort Worth patient who was midway through her pregnancy. The fetus had a rare neural tube defect. The brain would not develop, and the infant would die at birth or shortly afterward. Carrying the pregnancy to term would be emotionally grueling and would also raise the mother’s risk of blood clots and severe postpartum bleeding, the doctor warned. But the patient was past six weeks’ gestation, and under the new law, an abortion was not an option in Texas because the woman was not immediately facing a life-threatening medical crisis or risk of permanent disability."
Prepare yourself for a zillion stories like this after sharia-style law is imposed across the country. Expect your minority-status on the topic to shrivel even further. See what happens when the abortion issue is no longer the cheapest-grade of Right-wing posturing faux-piety, but government control affecting thousands upon thousands of women and families.
How far will Gosnell get you then, Brett?
https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/26/health/texas-abortion-law-risky-pregnancy.html
I think that under what I might think a reasonable conception of interstate commerce, Congress would no more have jurisdiction over abortion than it would have over, say, growing a marijuana plant on ones window sill for personal use. But Raich v. Ashcroft having been decided as it was, and the constititutionality of laws like the Access to Clinics act having been upheld, I suspect a conservative Congress could pass laws that ban abortions just as easily as a liberal Congress could pass laws protecting them.
It would be interesting if, in the event of a Republican congressional majority abortion became a wedge issue for re-narrowing the concept of interstste commerce. Conceivably the Court’s linera
Conceivably the Court’s linerals might align with a couple of the conservatives to reach such a result.
Republicans had no federalism problem in banning partial-birth abortion.
Sounds similar to the horribles conservatives say about liberals with respect to immigration. They want rapists, murderers, etc. to enter because they want to destroy the country, right? They want to take Americans’ jobs away. And so on. It’s really very similar.
"only applied to those already born, such as Section 2 of the 14th Amendment, which bases apportionment on 'the whole number of persons,"
Without defining persons. Just because census-takers don't ask women if they're pregnant doesn't mean the unborn aren't persons.
"and makes reference to an individual's age, which has always been counted from birth, not conception."
Having a fixed birthday is legally essential for all sorts of reasons, though it doesn't mean that the baby one minute away from birth isn't a person.
"Let's start with Due Process. There is zero evidence that this clause was ever understood to prohibit abortion, or any other private conduct."
Check your Magna Carta - it forbids outlawry without due process of law. This is the ancestor of our due process clauses.
The key illegal action is the withdrawing of government protection from the outlaw, so that what would otherwise be murder on the part of a private person would be lawful if you kill an outlaw.
"Most questions of life and death, and the extent to which actions that harm or kill others should be criminalized, are questions left to the states."
Like those states where killing black people was unpunished in situations where the killing of white people would be punished?
"prior to quickening"
That's an unscientific concept based on superstition. I support science.
When did you ditch the childish superstition, Cal Cetin? This morning?
If so, congratulations. Reason is always the better choice. Gullibility is a bad look for any adult -- and that includes ostensible adults.
I once believed in the competence and goodwill of the government, which is a fairly major superstition.
And yet you cling to believing (particular) fairy tales are true . . .
No, I don't believe in the Myth of Progress, you superstitious silly person.
Cal Cetin, Defender of Zygotes?
Hey, lady, are you engaged in exercise? Might you be threatening a zygote-American! Citizen's Arrest!
Defender of Zygotes!!!!
Cal Cetín : "Check your Magna Carta .... (etc)"
You read Cal's comment above and come to suspect he's totally clueless that abortion was both legal & common when the 14th Amendment was written. Statist womb-control wasn't imposed on women until over a half-century later.
I was addressing the public/private distinction the author was trying to draw. Outlawing a person (and we'll get to the definition of person in a moment) must, thanks to magna carta, be surrounded by due-process safeguards, which in English common law meant formally accusing the person of something and summoning him to appear in court - only on his failure to do so would he be outlawed. I don't think it would be legal to outlaw a fetus with these procedures, which to my mind means it can't be outlawed at all.
The time of the ratification of the 14th Amendment did in fact happen to coincide with a great deal of tightening-up of the abortion laws, making the penalties greater. They didn't wait a half-century.
I'm not really sure where you get your history, but even the pro-choice element acknowledges that anti-abortion laws were passed in the mid-19th century (they blame organized male medicine of course).
As for the dog not barking, I don't think any political faction at the time was calling for abortion to be legal - there was the dog that didn't bark, and so it's understandable that there was no need to invoke the 14th Amendment against a faction which didn't then exist.
Now, as far as personhood, Blackstone, based on the quickening theory then prevalent, said fetuses had a God-given right to life after quickening, IIRC.
Before quickening, the status of the fetus as alive or non alive was, as a matter of evidence, not established. Modern science shows its alive.
Alive, and a distinct human being. Is anything else required to make one a person? Don't mention brain activity or I'll make a joke about not needing brain activity to comment on the Internet, yet Internet commenters are persons.
You're engaged in huge jumps (that the Founders really, really would have come to your conclusion re quickening with modern science) and mighty hand waves (let's not concern ourselves with perhaps the most critical criteria of brain activity!) to read your theory into the Constitution where it's just not in the text. You're the mirror image of the Roe-sters (and without the precedential history!) in your, either religious or personal passion, to read zygote rights into the Constitution.
You *are* aware of what "quickening" means, right?
Hint: The quick and the dead.
The Supreme courts’ exegeses of when the word “person” as used in the Due Process Clauses applies simply aren’t based on science. As I note below, the word “person” equally doesn’t apply to foreigners outside US territory.
The argument that the 14th Amendment requires States to prohibit abortion is almost as weak as the argument that something in the Constitution prohibits States from limiting or prohibiting abortion.
Weak maybe, but not almost as weak. Not even close.
"only those "born or naturalized in the United States" are citizens"
Don't forget the all-important, "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof.." 🙂
"Some counter that if "persons" is a capacious enough term to include corporations, then it can include the unborn as well. This counter fails on two fronts. First, corporations are not considered persons for all constitutional purposes"
So what?
"second .. corporations "are merely associations of individuals" .. where denying constitutional rights to a corporation would require denying rights to a collection of individuals, those rights are protected.."
Ah, so it's about protecting the rights of "individuals." Individuals, very interesting. And this is supposed to support your argument? Seems like it does the opposite.
Wow, you didn't manage to engage with any of the arguments you quoted at all.
How are they even arguments?
How is the fact that corporations are not considered persons for ALL constitutional purposes, an "argument" against the idea that the fact that corporations are considered persons for SOME constitutional purposes (but not others) illustrates the purpose and flexibility of the term in protecting the rights of individuals?
If you follow Adler's link to Ed Whelan, it explains that the point of this personhood argument about corporations is to illustrate why it's not incongruous for the unborn to count as persons for Section 1 but not Section 2, because that's how corporations are treated, and it's about whether the rights of individuals are "affronted." So for Adler to say "but corporations are not persons for ALL purposes" seems to misunderstand the argument he is trying to rebut. It's like, yeah, that was the point.
The second one is a little bit better, but not much. Again if you follow the Ed Whelan link, first of all, his whole position is drastically different from, and in disagreement with, Adler's extreme assertion that NO TRUE ORIGINALIST "EVER SHOULD" agree with this position. Second, to the particular argument referencing the 1888 ruling in Pembina Mining Co. v. Pennsylvania here, Ed Whelan admits that it only "adds, at least modestly, to the force" of a counterargument. Third, Ed Whelan actually finishes the thought that Adler didn't, if you care to see it, only then will an actual argument become clear (it's at the end of Section II). But as far as Adler carried the thought, it only demonstrates that corporations are treated as persons because it's necessary to interpret that word expansively to protect the rights of individuals, and that only supports the personhood argument.
Both are arguments about the weakness of the analogy of fetus to corporation.
First, that won't get you where you want to go because Corporations don't have full personhood.
Second, the mechanism by which corps get personhood is derivative, not direct. This does not comport with the Pro Life argument.
You confused the discarding of this particular argument with a broadside on the issue generally, and pointed out that because there are other arguments, Adler's objections are irrelevant. Which completely misunderstands the logical chain.
And then you took issue with Adler's use of the term 'individual' to discuss the derivative nature of corporate rights which is a further reading fail of why he is using the word.
It's pretty impressive how your reading skills drop when you get when you have a partisan goal in sight.
"First, that won't get you where you want to go because Corporations don't have full personhood."
Wrong, it does get you where you want to go. If fetuses are persons for purposes of equal protection, it doesn't matter that they aren't counted for apportionment purposes, and (setting aside the P-or-I issue) it may not matter that they are not citizens.
You don't understand the arguments being discussed.
It starts with an objection from Adler's side of the argument: How can fetuses be persons under Section 1 (equal protection) but not Section 2? That's inconsistent.
Response: Corporations are persons under Section 1 but not Section 2, so this isn't a problem.
Corporations are persons under Section 1 because corporations are groups of individuals, and the purpose of that Section is to secure the rights of individuals, so the word "person" requires an expansive interpretation for equal protection purposes to avoid denying rights to individuals. Section 2 does not secure the rights of individuals.
Counter-response: The disparity for corporations can be explained the need to avoid a sort of double-counting. The individuals who comprise corporations are already counted under Section 2, because the artificial personhood of corporations derives from the natural personhood of the individuals. "By contrast, there is no double counting in counting unborn persons along with born persons." (Whelan)
It's a fair point, but pretty weak. And it was not stated fully by Adler (or comprehended by you). I would respond to it thus:
1. The disparity for corporations is not really explained by a need to avoid double counting, but is better explained by the securing of individual rights in Section 1 and the lack of securing individual rights in Section 2. This seems to be supported by the reasoning from case law.
1a. Adler's formulation from case law is a bit circular, but supports this: "where denying constitutional rights to a corporation would require denying rights to a collection of individuals, those rights are protected, but otherwise they are not." Now substitute with fetus: "where denying personhood to a fetus would require denying rights to an individual, those rights are protected [and the fetus is a person], but otherwise they are not."
If a fetus is not a person under Section 1, rights are denied. By contrast, if a fetus is not a person under Section 2, "no rights of the unborn were or are affronted by not treating them as included" (Finnis' words as quoted by Whelan). So it's not about counting, it's about securing individual rights.
1b. There are other reasons why the disparity for corporations is not well explained by a need to avoid "double counting." Ed Whelan states: "These born natural persons are fully counted under the apportionment provision in section 2". WRONG! He's wrong here. Corporations can be formed by foreign or out-of-state persons. They aren't counted. And yet, they get equal protection. Further, it would not be "double counting" when many individuals form a single corporation, or if one individual forms many corporations. The number of corporations that could be formed in a state is theoretically infinite, and bears no relationship to the individuals counted under Section 2. So the real reason corporations aren't persons under Section 2 is because they have artificial, derivative personhood, and because denying person status does not deny any rights to individuals like it would under Section 1.
Some final thoughts. Like Ed Whelan, I haven't yet been convinced of this overall argument. Even if I were convinced that But Adler, in typical form, relishes in zealously attacking various right wing or conservative positions, and in my opinion overstates his case.
As to the use of the term "individual," I did not take issue with it, I found it enlightening and useful for the reasons described above.
I always enjoy the glimmers of agreement!
It seems that everyone is agreed that a person, once born, enjoys protection: to define that protection, we need only define the moment of birth... perhaps necessarily leaving behind us the notion of "partial birth".
It also seems that all agree the concept of "quickening" is an element of law at every level. In the 18th century, cells were believed to have "quickened" into a person (in particular, a protected person able to inherit property) when the mother first felt a kick. Has science evolved since that century; that is, precisely when do cells "quicken" into a person?
""born or naturalized in the United States"
I agree with Cal Cetin that this goes against Critical Zygote Theory!
What about the Zygote Americans? These limbless, microscopic Americans are the same as black people (they fashion microscopic nooses and hang the zygote=American in public in abortions).
Whatever I did to your mind, I am very sorry.
My mind? I'm not doing backflips to read rights into the Constitution to microscopic Americans. Wtf is going on in *your* mind?
I was alluding to your strange overheated rhetoric, not engaging with the issue, as well as your tendency to make abortion comments even when I was discussing some other issue.
There's the joke about the psychiatrist showing a patient a series of Rorschach blots. The patient says, "this one is people having sex, this one is people having sex, this one is people having sex..."
The shrink says, "you certainly seem to have an obsession with sex."
The patient replies, "*I'm* obsessed? *You're* the one with all the dirty pictures!"
If you poke somebody in the knee, and they kick, you don't need to be sorry for giving them a reflex; All you did was activate it, not create it.
corporations "are merely associations of individuals united for a special purpose."
What a bizarre notion, at least in the case of large for-profit corporations.
How is profit not a special purpose?
As a originalist matter, this might be a decent argument, but everybody knows originalism is just a cloak for brutality and repression. As a matter of evolving standards of decency, we must accept the argument of the German Constitutional Court in BVerfGE 39,1 - Schwangerschaftsabbruch I, and accordingly hold that respect for human dignity requires the criminalization of abortion, whatever religious objections may be lodged by primitive and superstitious Moloch-worshiping baby-killers.
"German Constitutional Court"
This is America. Nobody gives a shit what a German court has to say on the matter.
Exactly the sort of reactionary nonsense I expected from someone rejecting the legacy of Ruth Bader Ginsburg.
Your attempts to trap liberals in their own tricks suffers from not understanding anything about the arguments you are attempting to deploy.
You know what evolving standards of decency applies to, right?
1) It is obviously and blatantly arbitrary to only apply "evolving standards of decency" to questions of what constitutes cruel and unusual punishment, rather than as a universal canon of Constitutional construction. Only a reactionary opponent of human rights would invoke tradition (which is all that precedent amounts to, in the end) to oppose its application to all Constitutional questions.
2) There's a not-particularly-subtle difference between trying to "trap liberals in their own tricks", and over-the-top blatant mockery.
The reference to the German Constitutional Court's decision seems dubious beyond the simple fact that they are a foreign court.
The German Basic Law is built upon the central tenet stated in Article One §1:"Human dignity shall be inviolable. To respect and protect it shall be the duty of all state authority." (Anthony Kennedy, anyone?) In the decision DRM refers to, the Court develops a train of thought based on "human life" avoiding the pitfalls of who is or is not a "person". The distinction is probably only semantic, materially, the Court conveys protection of human dignity and of human life to the unborn life, too. They convey the women the dignity to decide on their body but in the competition of two rights they declare the right of the unborn life having absolute priority. The court's ethics of conviction is mitigated, though by a heavy dose of consequentialism. In best "Radio Yerevan" style the Court allowed to have an absolutist §218 in the German Criminal Code categorically prohibiting abortion while §218a allows abortion go unpunished during the first twelve weeks of gestation. In case of a threat of life or health of the mother later abortions are allowed.
I haven't been able to reconstruct the reasoning for the twelve week limit.
At what point currently does someone gain constitutional protections? Is it the moment of birth? Are all laws that currently regulate what you can or can’t do to an unborn child the day before it’s due date entirely up to the states, and not subject to constitutional scrutiny?
In theory could a state legalize abortion up until the moment the entire baby clears the womb alive?
I’m not making any kind of argument here, I’m just wondering if there’s an understood legal precedent dictating exactly when constitutional protections kick in.
Although I’m totally onboard with most of Adler’s points, I’m still assuming that a state would run into constitutional trouble if it outlawed the intentional killing of everyone over two days old, but anyone younger is fair game.
Good evening, Mr. Moroni
Where have you been? This part of the world is diminished greatly when you leave the commentary to a bunch of lousy corksoakers, no-good fargin' iceholes, and sneaky, somanabatching bastages.
On a brighter note, I may have occasion to spend a bit of time with your old pal Johnny one of these days (not in Sweden). Might I convey the regards of a common patriotic citizen such as yourself?
Thought you might like this one, Mr. Moroni . . .
I appreciate your appreciation. I still follow the blog and comment every once in awhile, but the comment threads nowadays tend to be dominated by vitriol for the other team, focused more on insults than sincere conversations. I still manage to learn a thing or two from some of the exchanges so I can’t complain.
I can’t say you’re innocent of the practice. I remember when you used to engage sincerely and thoughtfully on any given topic even with those that disagreed with you, as I often did. But it seems like you get more enjoyment now from extracting a negative emotional response from others rather than conveying your actual opinions, which I know to be more nuanced than you currently let on.
But I’m not criticizing. People should use the internet in whichever way they find most satisfying. You seem to be having fun in your current incarnation as the resident lord of trolling. So do it in good health.
But since you are a lawyer, do you happen to know the answer to my question? Is there currently an understood legal rule, or generally followed precedent about when constitutional protections kick in? Obviously it’s no later than birth, but is it constitutionally permissible for a state to allow abortions up until the kid pops out?
The question just occurred to me due to Adler’s argument about needing a birthday to be counted as a person officially when it comes to census taking and whatnot. Which implies that at no time before the moment of birth does the federal government have any say about what can be done to the almost, but not quite person.
Theoretically, no state is constitutionally obligated to criminalize homicide, absent governmental action, at any stage of life. The prohibition is on depriving life without due process of law.
Right, the requirement is equal protection of the law, but the 14th amendment doesn't dictate at what level that equality will be maintained, just that it has to be equal.
"I’m still assuming that a state would run into constitutional trouble if it outlawed the intentional killing of everyone over two days old, but anyone younger is fair game."
New York seems to have gotten away with it so far.
That's the issue, isn't it? We can probably agree that waiting until you go into labor to have an abortion is a bit late, but we generally don't hold funerals for miscarriages either [except for publicity], so where's the line?
Someone (Bill Clinton? Really? Huh) once said abortion should be "safe, legal, and rare". That seems hopelessly naive and idealistic now. Clearly, we must fight to the death [sorry] to enforce our will on anyone who dares to disagree with our infallible judgement!
" That seems hopelessly naive and idealistic now. "
Perhaps, but another couple of decades of American progress should enable us to sift this one, and others, in a just, sensible manner.
I think the court will reiterate that fetuses gain constitutional rights at the moment of birth in exactly the same way it has reiterated that foreigners gain constitutional rights at the moment they cross the other. It will have no more problem with the boundary between the prenatal and the natal than it has had with the boundary between the extraterritorial and the territorial.
So would they say it’s a person the moment the top of the head emerges, or not until the last toe clears the threshold, or somewhere in between?
In baseball you’re safe the moment any part of you touches the base. In football you’re out of bounds if even the tiniest part of your cleat touches the sideline. I’m just saying, without clearly defined rules it’s anarchy.
Or does the Supreme Court exercise the authority to tell you to fuck right off if you ask them that question?
As to your question of whether a state could legalize abortion up to the moment of birth, several states do exactly that. As the link shows, Vermont, New Hampshire, Oregon, New Mexico, Colorado, and Alaska have no limit on how late in pregnancy an abortion can be performed.
I don’t see the Supreme Court doing anything to change that.
https://www.businessinsider.com/latest-point-in-pregnancy-you-can-get-abortion-in-50-states-2019-5?amp
https://www.businessinsider.com/latest-point-in-pregnancy-you-can-get-abortion-in-50-states-2019-5?amp
That’s interesting. I wonder how you would go about challenging that in court in a state that allows abortions up until the moment of birth, on the grounds that a baby the moment before it’s born is essentially as much of a “person” as it is the moment after birth, and therefore is entitled to the same rights of equal protection under the federal constitution.
Now obviously presenting such an argument wouldn’t be to address any real world issue of women changing their minds at the last second and aborting while in labor. The point would be to establish that if birth isn’t the objective point at which constitutionally protected personhood begins, then there is no objective moment where personhood begins, so it’s up for discussion at the very least.
I’m not encouraging the argument. I’m just wondering if anyone has tried to present it, and if it’s even plausible with all those rules about standing and whatnot.
In the real world it seems like there has to be an exact moment when constitutional protections kick in. And birth appears to be the current marker, but is that just by default because the supreme court has never had to make an official call? And if they had to actually make that call, is there any reason to assume birth would be the answer?
I’m not a constitutional scholar so if Adler tells me that there’s enough legal precedent to proclaim birth is the established point at which personhood starts as far as the federal government is concerned then I’m inclined to believe him, unless someone else has a persuasive argument against that position.
"As the link shows, Vermont, New Hampshire, Oregon, New Mexico, Colorado, and Alaska have no limit on how late in pregnancy an abortion can be performed."
And New York has no enforceable limit; The limit exists only in theory, with no mechanism to enforce it, or even deter 'abortion' somewhat post-birth.
Right there, emanating from that penumbra just to the right ... no not that one -- the other one!
Yup -- a right to life!
Johnson v. Eisentrager, the Supreme Court held that the word “person” as used in the 5th Anendment lacked “extraterritorial application,” beginning a line of cases that have consistently held that non-citizens/nationals outside US territory lack constitutional rights. After all, the US government, through both overt war and covert military and paramilitary action, sometimes chooses to kill them.
In Roe v. Wade, the Court, following a very similar line of argument and exegesis of the Bill of Rights, concluded that the word “person” as used in the 14th Amendment lacks “prenatal application.” A very similar conclusion.
The conservative majority on the Court in recent years has made efforts to double down on the no extraterritorial application principle, recently calling it firmly settled and bedrock law that non-citizens outside US territory conpletely lack constitutional rights.
I think these efforts strongly suggest that rather than going the route of reversing this aspect of Roe and holding that fetuses are persons, the Court will instead clarify that the word “person” doesn’t apply to them in exactly the way it applies to unwanted prospective immigrants.
Neither has any constitutional rights. But nobody would suggest this means that laws granting prospective immigrants statutory rights or protecting them from abuses are in any way constitutionally suspect. No personal rights simply isn’t the same thing as not a human being.
I predict the Supreme Court will make the analogy between the constitutional status of fetuses and the constitutional status of foreigners, long implicit in its cases, explicit.
This means that it will not hold the constitution itself restricts abortion in any way, just as the constitution itself does not restrict the war power, the power to kill foreign non-citizens in covert actions, the power to control immigration, etc.
But it will mean that laws restricting abortion would be looked at more favorably, and seen as more reasonable, than at present, just as laws giving prospective immigrants rights etc. are generally regarded indulgently. In particular, the idea that such restrictions represent a mere religious view, are against science, or lack rational basis will be clearly discarded.
I will take the other side of that bet.
"This means that it will not hold the constitution itself restricts abortion in any way, just as the constitution itself does not restrict the war power, the power to kill foreign non-citizens in covert actions, the power to control immigration, etc."
A Supreme Court capable of legalizing abortion is not a court I trust to protect human life.
As for war - whether against foreigners or against Americans in a civil war - then since the Framers fairly clearly weren't pacifists, they would regard killings done according to the laws of war (as recognized by the law of nations) as satisfying due process.
As to "the power to kill foreign non-citizens in covert actions" - how broad do you consider this power to be? Assassinating an enemy commander like Yamamoto would probably come under the war powers, but killing in peacetime? I have my doubts. The fifth Amendment speaks of "persons," not "US persons."
Abortions are already legal. Do you mean you don’t trust the Supreme Court if they fail to make abortions illegal on a national level? Is that because you believe they would be failing to correctly interpret the constitution? Or because they’d be failing to enforce a moral imperative, the constitution be damned?
"Or because they’d be failing to enforce a moral imperative, the constitution be damned?"
Reading these comments, I noticed that somebody said that "the comment threads nowadays tend to be dominated by vitriol for the other team, focused more on insults than sincere conversations."
What do you think of that comment?
Is a Supreme Court capable of legalizing unplugging people in a vegetative state in the same boat? How about one that allows (with the person's prior consent) euthanasia in that circumstance?
You're not just dancing, you're breakdancing, away from the text and original understanding to get the reading your religious or personal passion wants.
"A Supreme Court capable of legalizing abortion is not a court I trust to protect human life."
Perhaps Roe v. Wade corresponds to the original understanding?
Natural Law rights pervade all abortion discussions. Abortion supporters urge a natural right to bodily autonomy. Abortion opponents urge a natural right to life. What doesn't appear so often is the idea of natural law duties. That idea raises questions of constitutional limits. May the constitution prohibit a state to perform a duty natural law demands it perform? If a court must always remember that it interprets a constitution, must it also remember that it operates in the social purpose? If the very first duty of society is to defend its members, if societies fundamentally come into existence to defend their members, how can any law, even the constitution, prohibit society to do so?
Personhood is the central question, as acknowledged by the Supreme Court in Roe v. Wade:
"The appellee and certain amici argue that the fetus is a 'person' within the language and meaning of the Fourteenth Amendment. In support of this, they outline at length and in detail the well known facts of fetal development. If this suggestion of personhood is established, the appellant's case, of course, collapses, for the fetus' right to life would then be guaranteed specifically by the Amendment."
https://www.law.cornell.edu/supremecourt/text/410/113&
But we can strip personhood rights from unborn human beings, we're told, because census-takers don't ask women if they're pregnant, and because the Constitution measures age from birth.
Shouldn't there be something more substantial than this to justify taking away legal protection from a category of living human beings?
Perhaps the liberty of a person-woman to decide her own fate takes precedence over the life of a non-person-fetus? Or, the health of persons take precedence over the life of a non-person-embryo in the case of stem cell research. And, the liberty of a woman to give birth takes precedence over the life of unused non-person embryos in IVF?
"non-person"
Close, the correct term is "unperson."
"it is the P-or-I clause that is the source...."
Shouldn't it be "P-and-I clause...."? Inquiring minds want to know. (:
No. P and I is from Article IV.