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The Firearms Policy Coalition Targets Texas S.B. 8
The gun rights group has filed a brief supporting the petition for certiorari in one of the cases challenging the controversial Texas abortion law.
Whatever one's views of abortion, there are reasons to be concerned about the legal mechanisms deployed in Texas S.B. 8. In a prior post, I noted how the position of abortion providers under S.B. 8 bears some similarities to the way the Environmental Protection Agency treated the Sacketts.
Yesterday, the Firearms Policy Coalition filed a brief in support of Whole Woman's Health's petition for a writ of certiorari before judgment in Whole Woman's Health v. Jackson. The brief raises concerns about the structure of S.B. 8 and how this structure could be applied to deny judicial review of governmental actions that restrict other constitutional rights (such as gun rights).
Here's the summary of the brief's argument:
The importance of this petition is not about any debate over the existence or scope of any constitutional right to abortion. Indeed, Amicus takes no position on such questions, which are before this Court in other cases. Rather, this case is about access to the means of enforcing individual constitutional rights, as determined by this Court's cases, and protecting against their infringement, regardless of the particular right involved. Texas's novel scheme for infringing upon and chilling the exercise of the right to abortion under this Court's Roe and Casey decisions while seeking to evade judicial review, if allowed to stand, could and would just as easily be applied to other constitutional rights. That result is wholly anathema to our constitutional scheme, regardless what one thinks of abortion or, indeed, of any other hotly debated constitutional right, such as the right to keep and bear arms.
1. The petition presents an important question warranting this Court's early and expedited review because, if Texas's scheme for postponing or evading review is successful here, it will undoubtedly serve as a model for deterring and suppressing the exercise of numerous constitutional rights. New York is already experimenting with private enforcement of anti-gun laws raising significant Second Amendment issues and will no doubt gladly incorporate the lessons of this case to insulate its future efforts to suppress the right to keep and bear arms. Other States, targeting those and other rights, will not be far behind. Indeed, a private bounty scheme could easily be modified to target persons who criticize the government, refuse to wear masks or get vaccinated, make negligent or harmless false statements on public issues, or engage in any other protected but disfavored conduct. And, if Texas's asserted procedural barriers to preenforcement review are upheld, there is no reason to think the penalties couldn't be made even more draconian, thus increasing the deterrent and chill of constitutionally protected activity. The precedent this law sets as a model for deterring the exercise of any and all rights makes this case one of tremendous importance and worthy of this Court's prompt consideration.
2. It is well established across numerous cases that laws that deter or chill the exercise of constitutional rights violate those rights. Such deterrence or chill constitutes a present harm for which litigants can seek present redress without having to violate the laws in question and absorb the tremendous risks of thereby putting their heads on the proverbial chopping block. Even where the risk derives from prospective litigation initiated by private parties relying on state law, such risks are still the product of state action and imposed by state actors. Whether such state actors are the "deputized" potential plaintiffs or the court officials and jurists that wield the power of government at every stage of the litigation process, the chilling effect here derives from the bending of state power to such ends. In such circumstances, there should be no serious barrier to enjoining any and all state actors who facilitate or play a role in such a farce. To the extent any of this Court's sovereign immunity jurisprudence even hints otherwise, such cases have strayed from the text, structure, and logic of the Constitution and should be reconsidered.
And here is the conclusion:
This case is important not because of its specific subject matter of abortion, but instead for Texas's cavalier and contemptuous mechanism for shielding from review potential violations of constitutional rights as determined by this Court's precedents. It is one thing to disagree with precedents and seek their revision or reversal through judicial, congressional, or constitutional avenues; it is another simply to circumvent judicial review by delegating state action to the citizenry at large and then claiming, with a wink and a nod, that no state actors are involved.
From Amicus's perspective, if pre-enforcement review can be evaded in the context of abortion it can and will be evaded in the context of the right to keep and bear arms. While the political valences of those issues seem to be opposites, the structural circumstances are too similar to ignore. As with Roe and Casey, many States view Heller as wrongly decided. Those States, with the help of many circuit courts, have showed an ongoing refusal to accept the holding in Heller and a continuing creativity in seeking to circumvent any protections for, and to chill the exercise of, Second Amendment rights. It is hardly speculation to suggest that if Texas succeeds in its gambit here, New York, California, New Jersey, and others will not be far behind in adopting equally aggressive gambits to not merely chill but to freeze the right to keep and bear arms.
UPDATE: The Court granted certiorari.
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I assume the NRA will soon follow? Since they're famously a non-partisan gun rights advocacy group...
Of course not - NRA doesn't litigate gun rights. They let the other, actual, gun rights organizations do the work, then sweep in at the last minute to steal the credit
They should not shiv other parts of the GOP coalition like this.
There is no doubt a faction of the pro-life movement which is anti-gun. I bet this group would not like them sticking their noses into gun rights litigation.
Bob, it's not a question of sticking their nose into either abortion or gun rights. Rather, it's a question of do not apply tactics to the other side that you are unprepared to have applied to you. If Texas can abridge abortion rights in this fashion, there is no principled reason why California can't do the same to gun rights.
Would they sue gun owners for trespassing like you think a fetus can be?
Wow, you really are butt hurt over that to keep bringing it up. I think everyone else has moved on.
And I'm really sorry you're too stupid to follow a simple argument, but, from the top, for the benefit of anyone else here who cares:
If the fetus is a person (a proposition I dispute) then it is engaged in a trespass against a person by being present in a body where it's not welcome. The remedy is ejectment. Not criminal prosecution, not civil damages, just ejectment. Ejectment does not require intent; merely that the fetus be present on someone else's property where it's not welcome. The analogy I used is that if someone drugs you and then leaves you on my property, you are completely innocent and lacked intent to be on my property. I am still entitled to eject you if it's the only way to get rid of you.
Now, that seems simple and straightforward, sorry it's gone over your head about three times now.
Wow, you really are butt hurt over that to keep bringing it up.
I'm not hurt at all in any way. I'm just enjoying watching you continue to dig that hole you're in deeper and deeper, repeatedly telling the most ridiculous lies (the ones above are especially egregious) in a truly sad attempt to avoid acknowledging that you screwed, up, all because you're too much of a coward to do so.
Nah, you're just offended at the concept. Like I said, I think everyone else has moved on.
Now, the one mistake that I did make was engaging you at all. You dishonestly misrepresent pretty much anything I say and only rarely have anything of substance to contribute.
You dishonestly misrepresent pretty much anything I say
You're a coward and a pathologically lying piece of shit.
Early betting results are in. On the question, is Wuz:
1. Too stupid to understand the argument;
2. Totally dishonest in his characterization of the argument; or
3. Both
Early results show a 15/20/65 split, with 15% of the bettors saying Wuz is too stupid to understand the argument, 20% saying he's dishonest, and 65% saying both.
Hey at least you aren't butthurt.
Even trespassers are afforded duties of care. I'm skeptical of a claim that you can eject a trespasser in a manner that is certain to kill them as a simple, straight-forward application of property law.
It's far worse than that. Read his actual far more ridiculous claims, which he repeatedly changes and contradicts himself on (just search for the word "fetus"), resulting from his claim in a previous thread that a fetus' in its mother's womb fits "the legal definition" of trespassing, a definition he refused to cite until repeatedly pressed on it....finally citing in the thread below one that completely contradicted his claim, while then triumphantly declaring that it proved him right. He's really several tacos shy of a blue plate special.
https://reason.com/volokh/2021/10/19/people-are-less-interested-in-discussion-than-domination/#comments
Correcting your misrepresentations is neither changing nor correcting myself. If the argument went over your head, it went over your head.
Correcting your misrepresentations
Quoting you verbatim is now "misrepresentations". Like I said, your bullshit just gets more and more ridiculous.
Even Nieporent told you that you were full of shit.
Nieporent and I agree probably 90% of the time, and an occasional disagreement does not constitute telling me I'm full of shit.
But that's yet another example of what I was talking about. I don't think you've honestly represented anything I've said in the entire time we're interacting. Maybe you're not stupid; maybe you're just dishonest. Either way, the bottom line is the same. You're not a worthy adversary; worthy adversaries are honest in their characterizations of what was said. So, I'm now going on to other things.
an occasional disagreement does not constitute telling me I’m full of shit
Yes, in fact...it does.
I don’t think you’ve honestly represented anything I’ve said in the entire time we’re interacting.
And here you are again being completely and utterly full of shit...and extremely hypocritical about it to boot.
Krycheck, just stop this analogy. It has convinced no one. The clear counterpoint is that you may not "eject" someone in a way that will kill them. Similarly, you cannot evict someone on critical life support who will die if moved. No court would sign off on that and if you tried to force the matter, the sheriff would likely arrest you. If you did succeed in forcing them out and they died after you had been warning, then you would almost certainly be charged with some form of homicide.
You keep arguing this point in ever-more-complex manners, but your analogy fails at the most critical part, because it ignores the entire problem, which is that abortion is kills the fetus. That's a critical error.
Ben, my argument may not have convinced any of the pro-lifers here, and no argument would, but it's legally sound. "The ejectment kills" is not the end of the analysis. You still have to weigh competing interests. If the property owner's interest is great enough, and there is no lesser way to do it, then it's too bad the ejectment will kill.
Suppose you are in my house. You can't leave because there's a guy outside with a gun who's going to shoot you. But you can't stay either because you're carrying a deadly disease that will kill me if you're not out in five minutes. Would you seriously argue that you get to stay in my house on those circumstances?
And that's really what it comes down to: balancing interests and equities, and is this really the least harmful way to achieve that result.
But Ben, thank you for at least engaging the argument I actually made, unlike a certain other commenter I've been dealing with.
but your analogy fails at the most critical part, because it ignores the entire problem, which is that abortion is kills the fetus.
That's not even the most critical part of his actual claim, which is that the fetus is...in some way that only his fevered imagination can make sense of...actually committing the legal tort of "trespass", which is impossible, and obviously so to anyone who is not completely braindead.
But Ben, thank you for at least engaging the argument I actually made, unlike a certain other commenter I’ve been dealing with.
Yeah, there's nothing more misleading than quoting your exact claims verbatim, and pointing out the parts of your own citations that you keep ignoring.
It depends on the circumstances. This particular trespasser has seized someone else's body.
This particular trespasser has seized someone else’s body.
And a coma patient has "seized" the hospital bed he/she is occupying.
And you don't see the difference between a body and a hospital bed? You're not even sufficiently in touch with reality to know that a woman's womb is not analogous to a hospital bed?
And you don’t see the difference between a body and a hospital bed?
For purposes of your claim, there is no relevant difference. The critical part here is the claim that the fetus has "seized" something. Are you really too stupid to understand that? Neither human (a fetus or a coma patient) has the ability to "seize" anything.
But the "something" is a critical part of what is the appropriate remedy.
But the “something” is a critical part of what is the appropriate remedy.
Which is absolutely irrelevant with regard to the fact that neither entity has the ability to "seize" anything. Does the hospital have a cause of action against the coma patient if it decides it no longer wants him there? I'm not asking whether or not it can have him removed from the premises. I'm asking if he's committing a legal tort of some kind simply by virtue of the fact that he's laying in the bed?
Patient is cut open on oerating table. The surgery is going late and the surgeon realizes he is going to miss his golf game.
Simple case of ejectment? Let’s assume the surgeon owns the hospital and has the property rights.
Is the surgery going to take nine months?
Property law is not how we determine abortion rights. Its an interesting idea.
An unborn baby is a licensee, not a trespasser, since he or she entered with permission [engaging in sex]. Obviously, a rape would be without consent so trespasser would be more accurate.
The question is if the license can be revoked. A license coupled with an interest can usually not be revoked. The licensee's interest in life should make it irrevocable.
C'mon, Bob. Your version of the argument is no less silly than K2's, as both assume not only agency on the fetus' part, but also intent and ability to anything other than reside in its mother's womb.
No, my argument does not assume agency. It's strict liability. The mere fact of being present on someone else's property without their consent is the tort.
And failing to take adequate steps to keep someone out of one's womb is not extending a license.
The mere fact of being present on someone else’s property without their consent is the tort.
LOL! You still don't understand the meaning of the word "intent" and it's status as essential to torts of....y'know....intent? Like I said, even Nieporent pointed that out.
You have to be pretending to be this stupid. I just have trouble believing that anyone could be so braindead and still not have been the recipient of a Darwin Award.
Except that at common law, there was no requirement of intent:
"The early English common law imposed liability for trespass upon
one whose act directly brought about an invasion of land in the possession of another. It mattered not that the invasion was intended, was the result of reckless or negligent conduct, occurred in the course of extrahazardous activity, or was a pure accident; nor did it matter that no harm resulted. All that seems to have been required was that the actor did the act which in fact caused the entry.
Restatement of Torts, Section 166, comment b (1934).
Now, that may or may not still be the law in any given jurisdiction, but that was the early common law rule.
So we're back to either you're too stupid to follow the argument, or just dishonest.
So we’re back to either you’re too stupid to follow the argument
I'm not the one that's too stupid to understand this part of your citation:
"All that seems to have been required was that the actor did the act which in fact caused the entry."
Are you even capable of feeling embarrassment?
Now, that may or may not still be the law in any given jurisdiction
So now you're changing your claim from "is a trespasser" to "would have been a trespasser in some jurisdiction at some point in the past"...which is still not correct, given the part of the quote above that you clearly don't understand. So you're not only trying to dishonestly move the goalposts on your claim, your defense of that new position is grounded on profound stupidity.
Are you disputing that the fetus is "acting" by using nutrients, taking up space, and otherwise continuing to trespass? This is a continuing trespass we're talking about, and the fetus most certainly is doing all of those. I really hoped you would at least get that part; apparently not. Oh wait, you're thinking the last act was conception. Nope.
And no, I'm not changing my claim. I'm pointing out, again, that the intent requirement you're so stubbornly and stupidly clinging to doesn't get you anything. If the sole remedy being sought is ejectment, and the property owner is entitled to ejectment, no intent is necessary. Did you even go to law school?
Are you disputing that the fetus is “acting” by using nutrients
In any practical or legal sense, I most certainly am disputing that...in the same way that one is not "acting" simply by having a beating heart.
taking up space, and otherwise continuing to trespass?
Is it able to do otherwise? (It's difficult to believe that anyone would seriously make an argument that idiotic.)
"did the act which in fact caused the entry"
Please explain to us how the fetus caused it's own entry into its mother's body.
I’m pointing out, again, that the intent requirement you’re so stubbornly and stupidly clinging to...
I'm not clinging to anything. It is the most fundamental requirement of the definition for the tort of trespass that ****YOU**** provided to support your claim that the fetus is committing that tort.
If the sole remedy being sought is ejectment...
You keep using that word...but it does not mean what you think it means. Or are you claiming that abortions only happen as the result of successful civil suits by mothers proving in court that their fetuses are committing the tort of trespass (which would be required because Roe did not establish that a fetus was committing any such tort)?
And remember...your own definition for the "trespass" tort that you're claiming fundamentally requires intent. You can't pick and choose a few words from the definition that you think do apply and just ignore the critical ones that render the whole definition inapplicable.
The word "intent" in the citation that I provided was in the header, not the body, nor in the definition. If a word is completely absent in the definition that should be a clue to anyone except, I guess, you.
And you're now under the impression that self help remedies aren't remedies. No, there was no civil suit, because self help doesn't require one.
I repeat, did you even go to law school?
You're firmly into "shaming your ancestors for 7 generations" territory with your stupidity and bullshit. Here's the definition you linked to:
"Intentional interference with a person is also known as Trespass to the Person. This is classified as any unwanted, offensive, or unjustified interference with a person's body, liberty or rights. Charges of interference do not necessarily burden the plaintiff with proving damages, rather with proving intent to commit the offense.
Meaning of Intent:
In tort law, intent is a classification element for charges of assault, battery and infliction of mental distress. Intent is the desire and deliberate planning to do something. Tort law defines an intentional tort as a civil wrong knowingly committed by the offender. This is contrasted with a tort of negligence, which results from lack of concern or responsibility on behalf of the offender."
Not only was "intent" a part of the definition, it was a critical part...because "Trespass against the person" is an "Intentional tort" , which is why the author then immediately made a point of defining what "Intent" means wrt such a tort.
And you’re now under the impression that self help remedies aren’t remedies. No, there was no civil suit, because self help doesn’t require one.
They aren't "remedies" that constitute evidence that the availability of the "remedy" in question means that it is remedying the "Intentional tort" of "Trespass against the person". You can eject a rock from your property (or, in your case, from your otherwise vacant skull), but that's not because the rock is committing a legal tort.
And note again this from your own source:
Charges of interference do not necessarily burden the plaintiff with proving damages, rather with proving intent to commit the offense.
You keep asking me if I went to law school (I didn't, nor do I need to have in order to understand any of this). I have to ask if you ever made it to the 3rd grade.
And true to your cowardly dishonesty, you failed to address even a single point/question. Let's take them one at a time, again. Start with something simple, like this one:
"“did the act which in fact caused the entry”
Please explain to us how the fetus caused it’s own entry into its mother’s body."
One of the things one gets from a legal education is the understanding that legal authorities are written in a certain way for a reason; reading the Restatement of Torts is not like reading a novel. And that interpreting them therefore has different rules than the rules for interpreting a novel. And I have to run catch a plane so I don't have time to explain it to you in detail, but your layman's approach to interpreting legal authorities is flat out wrong. You're the quintessential pro se plaintiff who sees a line, standing alone in a statute, thinks he's discovered something that everyone else has missed, and then has his head handed to him by a judge because he misread the statute.
Not all trespasses are intentional. Some are strict liability, and the fact that the word "intent" appears in a section header means nothing because a section may talk about more than one subject. Even if it's scattered throughout the passage, it may still not apply to all possible trespasses.
"Entry" is a term of art. You seem to be arguing that the "entry" is the conception. Well, no, if a tort is continuing, then there's an entry for as long as it continues.
And maybe your belief that I'm a pathological liar who can't keep my arguments straight stems from the fact that you really don't understand how to interpret legal authorities as well as you think you do. Please at least consider the possibility.
OK, going to catch a plane now. This really be my last comment on this thread.
Not all trespasses are intentional.
But the one you cited as the legal definition supporting your claim IS...all of your song-and-dance bullshit notwithstanding.
and the fact that the word “intent” appears in a section header means nothing
The fact that it appears there along with multiple paragraphs defining it and explicitly stating that it applies to the tort being defined...something that you keep ignoring as though it doesn't exist...means a great deal.
“Entry” is a term of art. You seem to be arguing that the “entry” is the conception.
I haven't argued anything about what the "entry" is. I simply asked you to explain how...
"did the act which in fact caused the entry"
...applied to a fetus wrt its presence in its mother's womb. You've repeatedly avoided that.
Well, no, if a tort is continuing, then there’s an entry for as long as it continues.
"Continuing"? When did the tort begin?
you really don’t understand how to interpret legal authorities
Your attempt to plead from (your own) authority would be funny if it weren't so tragically pathetic. Tell us again how, "Intent is only required for criminal prosecutions", Perry Mason. If you did attend a law school you need to demand a full refund of your tuition costs. And if...Odin forgive...you actually graduated from it with an actual law degree then the entire institution should be burned, razed to the ground and the earth where it sat salted.
And while you're pondering the obvious waste of time law school was for you, tell us if a rock someone throws onto your property is committing a civil tort of trespass (or hell, even criminal trespass...I'll let you pick). After all, you can avail yourself of the remedy of ejecting that rock from your property.
Man, I ran out of popcorn about two subthreads ago. (Fortunately that's still grown domestically so I have a shot at getting more this year....)
"The analogy I used is that if someone drugs you and then leaves you on my property, you are completely innocent and lacked intent to be on my property. I am still entitled to eject you if it’s the only way to get rid of you."
That is a poor analogy. A better one would be that you and an associate forced someone onto your own property and set up circumstances that would result in their death if you removed them from your property before they had been there nine months.
There is a difference in a fetus trespassing and a person trespassing weather fetus is a person or not. The fetus is not responsible for its trespassing because it did NOT put itself in that womb. Now the mother and father are the responsible person even if the two are not married. Now I admit the two adults have the right to do what to put that fetus in that womb but with rights there responsibilities that goes with those rights. But in this modern age there are no reason for a couple when they copulate to produce a fetus. If they don't choose not to prevent that fetus it is their responsibility to take responsibility for it. And that does not mean to murder (deliberately to kill) it.
"California can’t do the same to gun rights"
California doesn't need to do it. The tactics they use with court blessing are sufficient for their needs.
Texas resorted to this because Casey bans first trimester abortions.
Except that the left is so unprincipled they'd have no issue using these tactics against guns while decrying them for baby killing.
The left is unprincipled.
The right is a collection of half-educated, roundly bigoted, superstitious, vanquished yokels.
Where is the hope for America?
Some people are more principled than you are. In fact, based on your commenting history, almost all people are more principled than you are. Although even as a matter of pure self-interest, the FPC argument is necessary. So perhaps more to the point: some people are more substantive than you are. In fact, based on your commenting history, almost all people are more substantive than you are. The FPC is looking after the interests of gun owners — not just trying to pwn the libs, as you are.
"FPC is looking after the interests of gun owners"
Not really.
Gun rights really depend on public support which influences legislators. Gun right proponents need to support other parts of the GOP coalition so those parts in return support gun rights.
You're a libertarian, practical politics is strange to you I know.
Bob is right — all elements of the conservative coalition (gun absolutists, racists, religious zealots, superstitious gay-bashes, backwater xenophobes, anti-abortion absolutists, trickle-down fans) are going to sink each other and together.
Which is nice.
The executive branch of the federal government is constitutionally mandated to take care that the laws be faithfully executed. U.S.Const. Art. II Sec. 3. “If the legislatures of the several states may at will, annul the judgments of the courts of the United States, and destroy the rights acquired under those judgments, the constitution itself becomes a solemn mockery.¨ Cooper v. Aaron, 358 U.S. 1, 18 (1958), quoting United States v. Peters, 5 Cranch 115, 9 U. S. 136. Supreme Court decisions ¨can neither be nullified openly and directly by state legislators or state executive or judicial officers nor nullified indirectly by them through evasive schemes . . . whether attempted ´ingeniously or ingenuously.´¨ Cooper, at 17, quoting Smith v. Texas, 311 U. S. 128, 311 U. S. 132. That is just as true of abortion rights today as it was of school desegregation in 1958.
In light of the Texas legislature´s gamesmanship, it is appropriate for SCOTUS to grant certiorari before judgment in order to address definitively whether an equitable cause of action exists under the circumstances present at bar. It is further appropriate to dissolve the stay pending appeal in light of the irreperable injury to the United States interest in enforcing federal constitutional rights, as well as the interests of abortion providers and their patients in the unfettered exercise of constitutional rights.
It was only a few years before Cooper v. Aaron that the Supreme Court was operating under the "separate but equal" doctrine. Then not only did they want to get patted on the back for acknowledging that *their own doctrine* had been stupid and self-contradictory (not to mention racist), they wanted to act as if segregation was wrong simply because they said it was, and wasn't wrong until they acknowledged it to be wrong.
Racial segregation was wrong and unconstitutional before the Supreme Court acknowledged it to be so. But without public opinion to back them up, not only would the Supreme Court never have made such an acknowledgement, they would not have been able to enforce it (as Congress did in 1964 with the threat of cutting off federal funds to segregated schools).
Here's some pew research showing that 59% of Americans support legal abortion.
All other things being equal, if the majority American opinion on legal abortion is relevant to the Supreme Court's approach on Texas S.B. 8, it is true that this opinion existed well before Texas's law was passed and exists after. Public opinion hasn't changed much and enforcing a stay on the law is straight forward. However, if the court is now viewing things from a more partisan perspective, the majority American opinion is irrelevant.
Issue polls are trash, without exception.
Yeah, I've seen the pew polls.
Legal in "all" cases is at about 25%, "most" 34% , illegal in most, 26%, illegal in all, 13%
But Pew isn't talking about the details of the cases, for some reason. So, let's look at Gallup, which does.
Pew and Gallup are in pretty good agreement; Gallup's got 48% saying "legal under some circumstances", 32% saying "under any circumstance", and 19% saying "under no circumstances. Considering the different phrasing, that's close enough.
But Gallup asks more detailed questions about cases. Unfortunately, the last time they asked really detailed questions was 2018, but let's go with that.
In the first trimester you've got 34% saying abortion should be generally illegal. Second trimester? 65%. 81% in the third trimester.
Deeper in the weeds: 53% would be willing to outlaw elective abortion in the 1st trimester.
So, Pew's "in most cases legal" are really thinking about abortion in the first trimester for medical necessity, rape, incest, NOT elective abortions. They don't mean elective abortions, and they're not talking about later term abortions, either.
And here's a facing-both-ways passage from the brief:
"FPC takes no position on whether abortion should be protected by the Constitution but believes that the judicial review of restrictions on established constitutional rights, especially those protected under this Court’s cases, cannot be circumvented in the manner used by Texas."
So we're not saying whether or not there's a constitutional right to abortion, simply that it's an "established constitutional right[]."
Asserting, and violating, neutrality in the same sentence.
I'm not pretending to have any insight into the sincerity of their neutrality claim, but the the quotation you cite is not self-contradictory. It says they're not taking a position on "whether abortion should be protected by the Constitution" (emphasis mine)", and then refer to restrictions on "established" rights. Abortion is a legally established right (via the court's decision in Roe), whether or not anyone thinks it should be.
Nope, it's not whether or not the Supreme Court thinks it should be.
Was separate but equal ever part of the Constitution?
How many legs does a dog have if you call a tail a leg?
Justice Robert Jackson wryly observed that the Supreme Court is not final because it is infallible, it is infallible because it is final.
Some SCOTUS decisions are execrable, but all are controlling authority.
They control the lower courts over which the Supreme Court is supreme.
Just as the lower courts were once obliged to pretend separate but equal was a valid constitutional doctrine, because the Supreme Court said it was.
But those outside the judicial hierarchy have the right to call things by their right names and challenge the Supreme Court's interpretations.
Supreme Court decisions are binding on all officials of state and federal government -- legislative, executive and judicial.
Specifically including the Texas legislature.
"Supreme Court decisions are binding on all officials of state and federal government — legislative, executive and judicial."
Do you have a source for that other than the Supreme Court itself?
I can think of Stephen Douglas.
"As my time flies, I can only glance at these points and not present them as fully as I would wish, because I desire to bring all the points in controversy between the two parties before you in order to have Mr. Lincoln's reply. He makes war on the decision of the Supreme Court, in the case known as the Dred Scott case. I wish to say to you, fellow-citizens, that I have no war to make on that decision, or any other ever rendered by the Supreme Court. I am content to take that decision as it stands delivered by the highest judicial tribunal on earth, a tribunal established by the Constitution of the United States for that purpose, and hence that decision becomes the law of the land, binding on you, on me, and on every other good citizen whether we like it or not. Hence I do not choose to go into an argument to prove, before this audience, whether or not Chief Justice Taney understood the law better than Abraham Lincoln. (Laughter.)"
https://home.nps.gov/liho/learn/historyculture/debate3.htm
It's not clear to me what point you are making. Are you arguing that a state government can enforce a law after the Supreme Court rules that it can't? As for Douglas, he seemed to be making a point about the Supreme Court's finality, in order to avoid having to talk about the merits of the Dred Scott decision, or its implications. He was already trying to stitch together a compromise between the two sides of the slavery debate, a compromise that neither side had any interest in accepting.
I am genuinely surprised to find this much ignorance of high-school-level American history on the part of people who defend judicial supremacy with an air of stating uncontestable truths. As if they had never been discussed before.
I am genuinely...
That much is highly doubtful.
You're playing a childish guilt-by-association game (Douglas was an asshole, but that doesn't mean he was wrong about a single point), and you're angry that nobody is taking the bait.
First the quote didn't exist, now it's unfair to use it. Whose sincerity is up for question, again?
"that doesn’t mean he was wrong about a single point"
Judicial supremacy was debated in the Lincoln-Douglas Debates.
Douglas asserted judicial supremacy.
Lincoln caught him out in the consequences of his position.
This on an issue which was central to the fate of the Union. An issue where Lincoln prevailed. There's your "single point."
Now the proponents of the losing side - Douglas' side - want us to ignore this history - which used to be known even to high school graduates - and want us to think Douglas' arguments are self-evidently right.
Have we developed new insights since Lincoln which show the validity of judicial supremacy? Show your work.
First the quote didn’t exist
It didn't in any of my posts nor in any post that I was responding to when you demanded that I agree/disagree with "the Douglas quote", as though I was supposed to even know what the hell you were referring to. I don't know why that's so difficult for you to understand.
now it’s unfair to use it. Whose sincerity is up for question, again?
I didn't say it was "unfair". I said it along with your "ideological ancestry" nonsense was a childish attempt at guilt-by-association. That makes it dishonest, not unfair. It's also utterly irrelevant with regard to the fact that whether or not they were correct in doing so the court created (discovered/manufactured/whatever) a legal right with the Roe decision that under our system of law is legally enforceable...like it or not...unless/until that decision is overturned.
The lack of sincerity here is all yours.
Nice attempt at a save, but even after I linked to this quote in your own personal subthread, you denied it.
Even after I showed you, in your own personal thread, a link to the quote, you used this language:
"“quoting part of a larger document” (which you did not do)"
Oops!
Of course I'm tying you to Dred Scott and forcing you to admit (finally) that by your own principles it was the law of the land when handed down.
No pun intended, but you need to own this.
"As for Douglas, he seemed to be making a point about the Supreme Court’s finality, in order to avoid having to talk about the merits of the Dred Scott decision, or its implications."
Of course he was.
"He was already trying to stitch together a compromise between the two sides of the slavery debate, a compromise that neither side had any interest in accepting."
And so he was. But apparently without success.
I can think of Gonzales v Raich.
You can stomp your feet and declare that the pitch was really a strike, but if the umpire called it a ball, it's a ball even if it was right down the middle of the plate.
It's interesting that nobody on the Roe-is-law side is willing to acknowledge their ideological ancestor, Stephen Douglas (see above). In fact, they're trying to ignore his embarrassing presence in their family tree.
Won't you at least invite him to your reunions?
Or perhaps he would be a ghost at your feast?
That seems like an easy stance to take. Sure, the history of the United States is full of crappy stuff, which doesn't change the fact that it's still the conditions under which the United States operated.
Going back to the language from FPC, Dred Scott *was* "established", whether it should have been or not or whether a given person agreed with that establishment.
Though I suppose it would be an interesting historical counterfactual to ponder a law similar to SB8 which allowed a private right of action against those who entered free states to recapture escaped slaves. (Yes, not what Dred Scott was about but I can't think of a way to bend an SB8-like law against those circumstances.)
I read the FPC statement as "yes, it may be fucking retarded, but it's the current law, and allowing a hack like this against the system is dangerous".
*shrug* YMMV.
'I read the FPC statement as “yes, it may be fucking retarded, but it’s the current law, and allowing a hack like this against the system is dangerous”.'
Agreed.
Nope, it’s not whether or not the Supreme Court thinks it should be.
I'm not sure how that constitutes any sort of response to what I said, which was that abortion has been established as a LEGAL right (pay attention to the word in all-caps, it's very important here) by SCOTUS, which is an undeniable fact...whether you, I or anyone else thinks that decision was in error (for the record, I do think it was in error, and on purely legal and secular grounds).
You and Stephen Douglas should get together, you have a lot to talk about.
Bob-and-weave...bob-and-weave....
No, you're in denial about your own ideological ancestry.
Do you agree with the Stephen Douglas quote, or not? Yes or no?
No, you’re in denial about your own ideological ancestry.
You clearly know nothing at all about my ideological ancestry.
Do you agree with the Stephen Douglas quote, or not? Yes or no?
I have no idea what the hell you're talking about (and I suspect that you don't either). There was no Stephen Douglas quote in any of my posts nor in any post to which I responded.
https://reason.com/volokh/2021/10/22/the-firearms-policy-coalition-targets-texas-s-b-8/#comment-9172498
I suspected you would bob and weave when faced with this embarrassing (for you) ancestry.
Of course, it is sad that a supposedly-educated American over the age of 12 should be unfamiliar with the Lincoln/Douglas debates.
That was not a post made by me nor was it contained in a post to which I responded, nor is it "a Stephen Douglas quote" with which one can be expected to agree or disagree. It is a link to a page containing the contents of the entire exchange between Lincoln and Douglas at one of their debates, as well as statements/questions from others in attendance.
Let me know if/when you can figure out exactly what the hell it is that you're babbling about, specifically
Like I said, I suspected you would bob and weave.
Let me put the question to you directly. Do you agree with Douglas (and against Lincoln) that the moment the Supreme Court issued its Dred Scott decision, "that decision becomes the law of the land, binding on you, on me, and on every other good citizen whether we like it or not."
Yes, or no?
As I said above, "I am genuinely surprised to find this much ignorance of high-school-level American history on the part of people who defend judicial supremacy with an air of stating uncontestable truths. As if they had never been discussed before."
"nor is it 'a Stephen Douglas quote' with which one can be expected to agree or disagree"
Not only do I have to remind you of high-school level American history, now I have to explain the practice of quoting part of a longer document? The Supreme Court does it all the time.
now I have to explain the practice of quoting part of a longer document?
No, but someone needs to explain to you the difference between "quoting part of a larger document" (which you did not do) and simply posting a link to a document with no indication of which part of it you claim to be "quoting".
That was quick. You've already reached Krychek_2 levels of stupidity/dishonesty.
Recall that your challenge was for me to agree/disagree with "the Stephan Douglas" quote, which...as I've already pointed out...was not present (either directly or as a reference) in any of my posts nor any that I had responded to.
What do you know, I must be psychic, I predicted you'd bob and weave, and presto! you did.
You may be slippery as the proverbial eel, but at the same time you manage to be a moron.
You're a liar and beneath contempt.
Go and do an anatomically-implausible act, you imbecile, you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you on your tiny member.
Is it only the discussion of aborted fetuses that causes you to engage in imaginings about your male opponent's genitalia, or are there other things that cause you to do that?
Well, I could have been even less charitable and commented on your inaccurate statement:
"“'quoting part of a larger document' (which you did not do)”"
Cal: I'll take that challenge.
> Let me put the question to you directly. Do you agree with Douglas (and against Lincoln) that the moment the Supreme Court issued its Dred Scott decision, “that decision becomes the law of the land, binding on you, on me, and on every other good citizen whether we like it or not.”
What part of that do you think is inaccurate? When the Supreme Court rules, it *does* become the law of the land, and it *is* binding. There's certainly plenty of SCOTUS rulings I dislike, but that doesn't mean they won't be enforced against me.
In the great contest between Douglas and Lincoln on judicial supremacy, you've seen Douglas' view, not hear Lincoln's:
"I do not forget the position assumed by some, that constitutional questions are to be decided by the Supreme Court; nor do I deny that such decisions must be binding in any case, upon the parties to a suit; as to the object of that suit, while they are also entitled to very high respect and consideration in all parallel cases by all other departments of the government. And while it is obviously possible that such decision may be erroneous in any given case, still the evil effect following it, being limited to that particular case, with the chance that it may be over-ruled, and never become a precedent for other cases, can better be borne than could the evils of a different practice. At the same time, the candid citizen must confess that if the policy of the government upon vital questions, affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court, the instant they are made, in ordinary litigation between parties, in personal actions, the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned their government into the hands of that eminent tribunal. Nor is there in this view any assault upon the court or the judges. It is a duty from which they may not shrink, to decide cases properly brought before them; and it is no fault of theirs if others seek to turn their decisions to political purposes."
(that last part may have been a bit snarky)
http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/1inaug.htm
I guess in the long run Douglas won the debate then, because that's certainly how things operate in practice now, and not the way Lincoln is suggesting they should. (If I have understood what he's getting at, that is.) Maybe I'm just too used to a country where SCOTUS precedent is binding, but it's difficult to see how it could work differently. Which isn't to say that I think things work perfectly as they are, just that it would trade one set of ills for another.
I dunno. Perhaps it would be a better outcome if in the wake of a decision like Dred Scott, the Supreme Court was forced to rule he same way repeatedly, because lower courts refused to respect precedent like that. But I would expect the results of such a system to be rather chaotic and unstable.
While I certainly understand your concerns, I would appeal to the current situation and ask how stable it is.
Also, if Supreme Court decisions were the law of the land, that would mean Congress, in passing a bill similar to a bill upheld by the Supreme Court, would have to assume the bill was constitutional - and the President must entertain the same presumption when deciding if to veto a bill. Likewise with someone convicted under a law the President believes to be unconstitutional. Even though there's no appeal to the courts from the non-enactment of a law, or from a pardon. And as Jackson joked, if the Supreme Court is infallible only because it's final, then in the cases I've mentioned it's Congress and the President who are final, which makes *their* constitutional decisions "infallible."
(to perlhaqr at 1:52 Oct. 23)
Finally, if Supreme Court decisions were the law of the land, then the *Justices themselves* would be bound, because they too must respect the law of the land. So they wouldn't be able to change their mind and overrule themselves.
Which they have been known to do.
And every lawyer who objects to the procedures used to arrest and convict an obviously guilty client is also being two-faced?
Objecting to procedures in cases they think the merits are against their client is half of what lawyers do. So is leaning heavily on the presumption of innocence.
I'm not sure where your paraphrase comes from, or what it's based on.
There is a small but significant difference; the US Constitution specifically mentions the right to keep and bear arms.
That's not relevant to whether a state can set up this type of scheme.
It is relevant to the likelihood of a successful defense.
Only in the realist sense that SCOTUS likes guns and doesn't like abortion. The textual hook is meaningless to the procedural questions.
What.
Having to defend at all is what chills the right
Unfamiliar with the development of substantive due process, Longtobefree? Several fundamental constitutional rights are not explicitly mentioned in the Constitution, but have been held to be within the Fourteenth Amendment guaranty of liberty.
I am familiar with substantive due process; also with the supreme court reversing long held decisions.
Oh I thought of a good hypo. So there is no actual explicit textual constitutional right to homeschool your kids or send them to private school, if the state mandates a public education. But the Supreme Court said that such a right is inherent in the "liberty" protected by the due process clause of the Fourteenth Amendment (Pierce v. Society of Sisters).
Say a state wants to get rid of homeschooling, because they think it makes kids worse off in the long run. And they decide to create a bounty system where anyone has standing to sue someone who provides a home school education to children or facilitates such an education: $10,000 in statutory damages in a civil case.
I somehow don't think conservatives would be very happy with this result if it were allowed to stand despite the lack of explicit textual hook for the right.
The blackman kid says not to worry about some S.B. 8 style scheme being applied to gun rights because scotus is in the tank in its support for gun rights.
Is the blackman kid wrong? He often is, but if he is here, why?
That's a good question. I think Josh gets too much heat from commenters here. I don't always agree w/him and IANAL so I often don't really understand, but I appreciate his enthusiasm and I can learn from him and from the dialogue in the comments. I can even learn from responses to him on posts that aren't his, or that, like Adler's, have a different tone or take than his.
Professor Blackman is a partisan shill. His analysis is shamelessly result oriented.
That is a given. You have to read his stuff through that lens. Its a useful perspective to have.
I think he's wrong because he's expecting a similar scheme against guns, rather than something that targets the manufacture, sale, or assistance in transactions/distribution of firearms and ammunition.
I imagine that could turn a state level "ban" into a national chilling scheme, because national retail chains and credit card companies aren't willing to die on that hill. Especially credit card companies; I can easily see them refusing to process any transactions for retailers that sell ammunition rather than risk exposure, which is going to force retailers to stop stocking such items.
Mom and pop shops in gun friendly states would be fine, but supply would take a huge hit even if gun manufacturers can weather the flood of legal fees.
I dunno. It seems very naive to assume that a mechanism to avoid judicial review isn't going to have serious unintended consequences, if successful.
Surely somebody out there is keeping track of how many briefs filed in the Supreme Court reference _This Is Spinal Tap_ . See page 7. What's the score? Is it a winning move?
On the substance of the brief, it still fails to offer what I consider an acceptable remedy. An order against every judge and paper-shuffler in the Texas court system, requiring them to do extra work screening cases, imposes a significant burden on people who have done nothing wrong.
A minor inconvenience is a small price to pay for preservation of the rule of law.
A significant burden? I'm not precisely familiar with the Texas arrangement, but it's generally a court clerk's job to process new filings. Check whether the civil cover sheet has been filled out, make sure the filing fee has been paid, make sure the complaint has been signed, etc.
I called this yesterday, in this space.
https://reason.com/volokh/2021/10/20/the-second-amendment-vs-the-seventh-amendment-the-distinction-between-substantive-and-procedural-rights/#comment-9171371
Through the lens of substantive versus procedural rights, the Texas legislature has granted everyone the right to sue to stop a medical practice. That man-made right (I call it procedural, I could be mistaken), if allowed to stand, can be used to violate a natural (substantive) right.
We got here because we took a wrong turn back there.
Well, i guess they got their wish.
honestly, this could be the most important case about federal and state power since gibbons.
I'd be content with some recognition of the Tenth Amendment.
And maybe some reform of what constitutes 'standing' to sue.
Content? Hell, I'd be thrilled if that's the only mischief that comes out of this.
The “pro-death coalition” finally comes together.
Sounds like Prof. Volokh is your kind of hack. You can keep each other company until replacement.
Everyone has a perspective, being a hack is someone for whom truth is secondary to their political preferences. If you think either Adler or EV is a hack, you haven't been paying attention...
Unless your definition of "hack" is "anyone who's opinions I disagree with."