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An Interesting Duty to Retreat (or Duty to Avoid Trouble?) Case, from a Century Ago
Self-defense against racist rioters.
Apropos the stand-your-ground vs. duty-to-retreat debate, I thought I'd pass along an interesting case that illustrates how duty to retreat might work. Recall that, under a duty to retreat, if
- you are threatened with death, serious bodily injury, or some other serious crime, and
- you can avoid the danger by retreating with complete safety
- from some place other than your home (even though you're legally present in that place),
- but you don't retreat, and instead use deadly force to defend yourself,
then you lose your legal right to use deadly force in self-defense. The theory behind that is that you should have avoided the danger instead of using deadly force.
Under the stand your ground approach, you don't lose your legal right to use deadly force in self-defense. The theory is that you shouldn't have to surrender your right to remain where you lawfully are just because a criminal is threatening you.
Let me also add one more twist: If you have a duty to retreat, you generally have a duty to stay retreated, at least for a modest amount of time—you can't just leave the place and then come right back, knowing that the person threatening you is still around (or else what would be the point of the duty?). This is sometimes articulated as a duty not to go where your "presence would provoke trouble." But it's linked to the duty to retreat, since the theory is that you should avoid trouble by retreating, and then not provoke further trouble by returning.
Here then is the case, Laney v. U.S. (D.C. Ct. App. 1923); it might seem like a creature of its own time, but it continues to be cited as good law today, and its result is consistent with the modern understanding of the duty to retreat. What do you think should be the right legal analysis in a case such as this? (I learned about it from Prof. Margaret Raymond's Looking for Trouble: Framing and the Dignitary Interest in the Law of Self-Defense, which I think is generally an excellent analysis of the stand-your-ground/duty-to-retreat question.)
This appeal is from a verdict and judgment of the Supreme Court of the District of Columbia, adjudging appellant, defendant below, guilty of the crime of manslaughter. The indictment charged the defendant with the crime of murder in the first degree, growing out of the killing of one Kenneth Crall, during a race riot in Washington on July 21, 1919….
Defendant [William Laney] testified: "On the night of the 21st of July, 1919, I went to the theater with Mattie Burke, and came back and went up on Seventh street at the request of Teresa Dobbins, to get Florence and Garfield Wood. On my return to 617 Massachusetts avenue, as I got to the corner where the Home Savings Bank is located, a large crowd that was there started to yelling 'Catch the nigger' and 'Kill the nigger' and started to chase me. I ran ahead of them down Massachusetts avenue. When I got near to 617 Massachusetts avenue, I pulled out my gun and the crowd stopped chasing me. I went into the back yard ….
"I then put the gun in my pocket and went to the front again, intending to go back to my place of employment. The mob was attacking a house across the street, and were coming both ways on Massachusetts avenue, from the direction of Sixth and from the direction of Seventh street…. While I was in the areaway between 617 and 619, the mob came across from the south side of the street, firing and hollering 'Let's kill the nigger.' The mob was firing at me, and I shot in the direction towards Seventh street. I fired to protect my life…." [The shots killed Crall, who was apparently a member of the mob.—EV]
[I]n our opinion, viewing the evidence in the most favorable aspect, self-defense does not enter into the case.
It is clearly apparent from [certain] testimony that, when defendant escaped from the mob into the back yard …, he was in a place of comparative safety, from which, if he desired to go home, he could have gone by the back way, as he subsequently did. The mob had turned its attention to a house on the opposite side of the street.
According to Laney's testimony, there was shooting going on in the street. His appearance on the street at that juncture could mean nothing but trouble for him. Hence, when he … stepped out into the areaway, he had every reason to believe that his presence there would provoke trouble. We think his conduct in … going into the areaway was such as to deprive him of any right to invoke the plea of self-defense….
[W]hether or not self-defense can be invoked under the evidence adduced is a question of law for the court to determine. If the facts, in the judgment of the court, are not such as to admit of this defense, the issue should not be left to the mere speculation of the jury.
It is a well-settled rule that, before a person can avail himself of the plea of self-defense against the charge of homicide, he must do everything in his power, consistent with his safety, to avoid the danger and avoid the necessity of taking life. If one has reason to believe that he will be attacked, in a manner which threatens him with bodily injury, he must avoid the attack if it is possible to do so, and the right of self-defense does not arise until he has done everything in his power to prevent its necessity. In other words, no necessity for killing an assailant can exist, so long as there is a safe way open to escape the conflict….
In the present case the defendant was neither acting in defense of his property nor attempting to avoid an affray. His going out into the areaway leaves but one inference to be drawn, namely, that he knew his presence there would cause trouble.
Nor was he in a place where, under the circumstances, he had a right to be. If conditions on the street had been normal, he would have had the right to elect that way to go home; but he had no right to go there with another way equally available, if by so doing it would invite an affray, which would almost inevitably result in the taking of life.
Defendant's going from the back yard into the areaway was a voluntary act, and no principle of the law of self-defense is better established than that: "Where a person voluntarily participates in a contest or mutual combat for purposes other than protection, he cannot justify or excuse the killing of his adversary in the course of such conflict on the ground of self-defense." …
Laney was represented, it turns out, by "William Lepre Houston, who was
considered one of Washington, D.C.'s finest African-American attorneys," and who was the father of Charles Hamilton Houston, widely regarded as one of the main architects of the litigation that led to Brown v. Bd. of Ed.
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So basically a stand your ground law, just like the right to keep and bear arms, is a victory against racism, notwithstanding the evidence that both are overwhelmingly used by racists to threaten and kill black people?
Keep in mind when the Black Panthers started open carrying in the 1960s then governor Ronald Reagan peed his panties because scary black dudes had guns and promptly outlawed open carry. Justice Thomas conveniently left out that example of racism with respect to gun rights in one of his opinions.
And, of course, the NRA took no position on Philando Castile, despite an egregious violation of his legally permitted right to carry.
It's totally possible to conceive of a gun rights movement that is completely dedicated to racial equality. There is, after all, nothing about the right to carry a gun that is itself racialized. But the movement we actually have is very much connected to white identity politics.
"But the movement we actually have is very much connected to white identity politics."
That's a terribly overbroad statement. The NRA conducted itself shamefully in the Philando Castille case, but there's a large component of the gun rights movement who thinks that black people's need for self defense is an important part of the right.
And it was a NRA lawyer, IIRC, that established that one motivation for the P&I clause was to protect freedmen's rkba.
The NRA was right to stay out of the Philando Castille case.
a) Castille was carrying a loaded weapon, while stoned on illegal drugs, while driving a car, with a child in the back seat. That is not exactly a good poster child for concealed carry rights.
b) Castille perjured himself, by clamiming not being a user of illegal drugs, when obtaining his CCW permit and purchasing the pistol.
b) Castille (probably due to him being under the influence of drugs) continued to reach toward his gun, while being order urgently, at gunpoint, not to do so.
In that situation, if an officer waits to see if the armed suspect actually draws and fires, there is a very good chance the officer and or his partner get killed.
Keep in mind, they pulled Castille over because he closely the description, from security camera footage, of a suspect in a recent armed robbery, in the area.
In hindsight, I don't think Castille actually intended to harm the officers. But, the officer didn't have the benefit of that hindsight or the ability to read Castille's mind, when he made a split second, life or death decision to fire on a man who refused to stop reaching toward his gun.
Your a) and first b) were not and could not be known to police at the time of the confrontation therefore they could not have been the basis for any rational decision by police. Your second b) is what the police claimed but it is not well supported by the other evidence and testimony we have about the confrontation.
And also, compare that to the benefits of the doubt that people like Randy Weaver and David Koresh get from gun rights types.
If you are white, every action is construed in its most innocent light and it's everyone else's fault, including law enforcement, for escalating.
If you are Black, every action is construed as provocation and justification for law enforcement to shoot you.
My point is that the NRA, with one of its biggest missions being safe, responsible gun ownership, is not going to get behind a guy who was behaving extremely recklessly, by unlawfully carrying a loaded gun, while stoned on illegal drugs, and driving a car, with a child in the back seat.
The officers didn't know Castille was stoned, but the NRA certainly did, when it came time to decide whether to take up Castille's death as a cause.
As for the officer, he reacted to Catille's threatening behavior of continuing to reach toward his gun, despite multiple warnings, at gunpoint, not to do so,
"b) Castille (probably due to him being under the influence of drugs) continued to reach toward his gun, while being order urgently, at gunpoint, not to do so."
He was ordered to produce his driver's license, and to not reach for his gun. And he fully complied with every order.
The Philando Castile case was problematic for the NRA because he was shot by a police officer. Many rank and file police officers are NRA members and constitute a large fraction of the membership so it is highly unlikely the NRA will ever say much of anything negative about police.
It is equally true that had Philando been white the NRA would have acted the same way. That's one reason they said nothing about the police killing of Daniel Shaver who legally had air guns that were seen through his hotel room window. Perhaps the problem isn't that the NRA is connected to white identity politics it's that they're connected to police identity politics and police are probably more likely to shoot black people with a gun faster than they shoot white people with a gun which is typically true regardless of the race of the officer.
Probably true, but if they allow people to be summarily executed by the police for legally carrying guns, it makes them terribly ineffective as a gun-rights organization.
"summarily executed by the police for legally carrying guns"
This is a lie, a gross distortion of what happened here, and what usually happens in police shootings.
Why do you and your ilk lie like this?
Well, to be fair, he does describe himself as a "Dick" and seldom fails to live up to it.
"This is a lie, a gross distortion of what happened here, and what usually happens in police shootings."
This is exactly what happened her.
"police are probably more likely to shoot black people with a gun faster than they shoot white people with a gun"
The stats actually say the opposite. It's just that blacks, due to living in high crime areas on average, come in contact with police more often.
But normalized for police encounters, a white is actually more likely to be shot. Maybe because there's less fuss about it?
Yes, but which race of perp is statistically more likely to shoot a cop?
By definition, 100% of perpetrators shot at the cops. (if they didn't shoot at a cop, they didn't perpetrate a shooting). Are you asking who has better skill at hitting what they shoot at?
What, shooting at a cop is the only crime you can perpetrate?
The NRA has taken up the cases of may black gun owners, most notably, Shaheen Allen.
Allen was a nurse from Philadelphia, who had a CCW permit in PA. She drove into NJ to go to Atlantic City and had her pistol in her glove compartment.
When she was pulled over, on a minor traffic violation, she volunteered to the trooper that she had her legal gun in the glove compartment.
Since, unlike all state driver's licenses, PA pistol licenses are not recognized in NJ, she was charged with illegal gun possession and was facing up to 10 years in prison.
The NRA vigorously defended her, had numerous features on her on its websites, social media and magazines and eventually the charges were dropped.
The NRA did not take up Castille's case because he was carrying a loaded pistol (and driving) while stoned on illegal drugs, with a young child in the vehicle.
Also, he refused multiple commands, at gunpoint, to not reach for his gun.
The NRA does not comment on ANY police shootings regardless of race. You can argue that it should. But it doesn't. As just one example, it hasn't commented on the Houston Police no-knock raid and killing of white gun owners Rhogena Nicholas and Dennis Tuttle in 2019. And there are dozens of other examples, but I doubt you will care to have your narrative disturbed.
False. Randy Weaver, a white supremacist, was shot by law enforcement officers, and the gun rights movement not only spoke against it but made it a defining moment of the movement.
The NRA didn't comment on Castile because it is a movement full of people who think Black people shot by the police had it coming.
Are you having a tolerant and inclusive moment, Dilan?
The NRA will almost never weigh in on these cases, especially where the facts are disputed, regardless of the race of those involved. Here is one rare exception where the NRA threw its support behind a young black mother who was arrested in New Jersey for carrying a concealed gun with a Pennsylvania permit:
Shaneen Allen to Avoid Prison as New Jersey AG Revises Sentencing Guidance for Gun Law Violations
https://www.nraila.org/articles/20140926/shaneen-allen-to-avoid-prison-as-new-jersey-ag-revises-sentencing-guidance-for-gun-law-violations
Also from the very pages of Reason, more evidence that the NRA "is a movement full of people who think Black people shot by the police had it coming."
How "Crazy Negroes" With Guns Helped Kill Jim Crow
Condi Rice was clear -- her Daddy's shotgun reigned in the racist Sheriff...
But did not shoot that deputy.
No, Vicky Weaver was shot....
Interesting. In your first claim you say "gun rights movement". In your second claim you say "NRA". These two are not the same. You also pretend you can read minds in your second claim.
Why would the NRA comment on that case?
There was no gun law in question here. This was a clear case of police misconduct rather than a Second Amendment issue or a question of gun policy or law in any way. There is no question that Castile possessed the gun legally. Although I don't believe Minnesota requires one to notify police that they are packing when stopped by police, Castile did anyway (although, I don't know if the city/county the stop was made in may have had such a requirement).
Would you have expected the NRA to "take a position" if police "thought" Castile was reaching for a knife which he was legally carrying and police wrongfully shot him? What about if police thought Castile was reaching for a baseball bat he had in the car and shot him as a result?
Castille was NOT a case of police misconduct. He kept reaching toward his gun, while being ordered at gunpoint not to do so.
He was also stoned on illegal drugs, while carrying a loaded gun, and driving a car, with a child in the backseat.
It was a terrible tragedy, and I highly doubt Castille actually meant to harm the officers. But, the officer had no way of knowing that, and Castille's reckless and foolish behavior caused his death.
The persistence of these talking points is basically how racism gets translated into the real world.
People WANT to say that a Black guy had it coming. So they come up with a million reasons why it was OK to shoot him. And there's an industry on the Internet of racists who then distribute these talking points to other racists, who then post the talking points in message board comments.
The whole thing is why Blacks complain of systemic racism. Not only are there racist cops, but there's a whole industry dedicated to make sure racists on the Internet defend racist cops. The bottom line is Black lives do not matter to a lot of people in this comment thread.
I couldn't care less about Castille's skin color. I have 3 biracial children.
The problem is a fundamental (and seemingly willful) misconception about what actions are likely to be reasonably perceived by police officers, to put their lives in imminent danger, and what legally justifies use of deadly force.
People seem to think that police are required to get into fair fights with armed suspects. They also seem to think police have WAY more time to react to a threat than they do.
If an officer allows a suspect to keep reaching for a gun, that suspect could very well draw, fire and kill the officer, his partner or someone else, before the officer has time to react. Even if the officer gets his shots off first, he could still be shot and killed, as armed man will not be immediately rendered incapable of firing a gun.
That is why there are protocols for suspects. Follow all commands, show your hands, don't make any sudden moves and most certainly do not reach for or toward a gun.
I constantly here people calling for better police training . While training can always be better, poor training is almost never the cause of police involved shootings. Officer Janez was following his training when he opened fire on an armed suspect who kept reaching for his gun, despite multiple warning not to.
What we need is better citizen training. People need to learn their rights and responsibilities in various types of police encounters, and better understand what is likely to get them shot, and how to avoid such behaviors.
"He kept reaching toward his gun, while being ordered at gunpoint not to do so."
Bullshit. The encounter is on video. He was ordered to get his license, and not reach for his gun. And he complied.
'But the movement we actually have is very much connected to white identity politics.' The evidence of this is only in your mind.
"the NRA took no position on Philando Castile"
July 11, 2017: “Do I believe that Philando Castile deserved to lose his life over a (traffic) stop?” she added. “I absolutely do not.”
Loesch told the CNN anchor that she was speaking on behalf of the NRA and its membership."
No, the NRA as an organization did not support the Mulford Act (although some members did). In fact, the Mulford Act and the other gun control acts of the 1960s were the catalyst for turning the NRA from an apolitical sports and training organization into aggressive support for the Second Amendment.
The NRA was founded after the Civil War in 1871 by Union Army generals. It was largely apolitical and was focused on sports and training. It did not object to many gun control laws, but was certainly not a proponent of them. In fact, resistance by the NRA helped keep handguns out of the onerous 1934 National Firearms Act. Most gun control laws were enacted by racist Democrats who targeted people of color who could not be trusted to own guns:
The Racist Roots of Gun Control by Clayton Cramer
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/cramer.racism.html
The wave of gun control in the 1960s, aimed at disarming blacks and troublesome minorities, changed the NRA. A member revolt in 1977 overthrew the old order and made it advocate vigorously for the right to be armed for self protection by all responsible citizens.
It wasn't racism. The Black Panthers were an extremely violent terrorist organization.
But, Reagan did go about dealing with the threat in the wrong way. Instead of attacking the gun rights of all Californians, he should have focused resources on prosecuting the BPs for their myriad violent crimes.
But this proves the point. When it is Black people owning guns, the conservative movement has no problem just going after gun rights directly.
I might add that there are thousands of Black people, right now, imprisoned on gun crimes in the United States. They may or may not have done other things, but they are charged and convicted of gun possession. This isn't a theoretical issue. The point is, because the gun rights movement is in reality closely connected to white identity politics, it does very little for these people. It's members do not want to see a bunch of Black people get out of prison, because said members are raicists who think those Black people are a bunch of criminals.
Correct, Giuliani cleaned up the NYC streets by enforcing most likely unconstitutional gun registration laws and obviously Trump was a big supporter of Giuliani.
In fact Sharpton got a Black adult sitting in prison based on a gun registration law a commutation for killing a white teenager in a “two idiots cross paths” case. So the jury took the easy way out and just sent him to prison on the fact his gun wasn’t registered while punting on the manslaughter charges because the underlying facts were so dumb.
I believe all law abiding black Americans should have the right to keep and bear arms and I encourage all who want to, to do so. Arguably, black Americans need gun rights more than white Americans as they tend to live in neighborhoods where they are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime.
But, the Black Panthers were not law abiding. They were a violent, racist, terrorist organization that committed numerous murders, robbed many banks and killed many police officers, in cold blood.
Still, as long as the individual members open carrying had not been convicted of and were not under indictment for such crimes, I believe they should have been allowed to open carry, so long as they did so lawfully and did not harm or threaten anyone with their guns.
Like anyone else, as soon as any used their guns unlawfully, they should have been arrested.
You are conveniently omitting the calls by the Panthers to execute the "pigs."
A scary black dude with a rifle is a lot scarier when he is part of a terrorist organization calling for wanton killing, and when, in fact, some members of that organization had done just that.
There is no such evidence, unless you count the woke media.
Where would an interested person locate this evidence?
And any thoughts about this particular case? Do you think the result is defensible? Or should Mr. Laney just have taken his lumps, perhaps drawing some comfort from the fact that his betters understand that the laws enforced against him really protect black people in the aggregate?
I am especially interested in Martineed's "evidence" since the actual historical evidence shows overwhelmingly that the right to keep and bear arms was critical to stopping racism and that gun control laws are universally passed by to suppress minorities.
So George HW Bush is a racist that signed the school zone Gun control legislation as president?? And whites in 1980s Texas were free to carry handguns wherever they went while Blacks would get busted if they carried a handgun outside their home?? One thing we agree on—Giuliani and Trump are racists that employed gun control measures to reduce crime in 1990s NYC.
Trump is a racist, but I don't think he did anything to reduce crime in 1990s NYC.
You don’t think helped get Giuliani elected and re-elected??
I don’t think he did anything to reduce crime in 1990s NYC.
He helped Giuliani get elected, and Giuliani was instrumental in reducing violent crime. And enforcing gun control laws were a major tool Giuliani employed to reduce crime.
"I don’t think he did anything to reduce crime in 1990s NYC."
Repeating that you think he did doesn't make it true.
Do you know how much money Trump made because Giuliani cleaned up NYC?? Trump
co-chaired Giuliani’s first fundraiser and during those years was putting full page ads in newspapers about things like the Central Park 5. Trust me, the big NYC real estate tycoons take a big interest in the mayoral contests.
"Do you know how much money Trump made because Giuliani cleaned up NYC??"
$0
Trump isn’t really a billionaire but he really does a NYC real estate worth over a billion dollars. The reason that NYC real estate is valuable unlike Detroit or Cleveland real estate is in part because the EPA cleaned up the air and water and Giuliani cleaned up the streets. Trump gets credit for spotting Giuliani’s talents and supporting his gun grabbing 2A violating crime reduction methods.
No retreat laws as a racial issue
"An editorial in the Madison Times is headlined "Blacks who stand their ground often imprisoned." It cites to a Tampa Bay Times article that claimed "Defendants claiming "stand your ground" are more likely to prevail if the victim is black. Seventy-three percent of those who killed a black person faced no penalty compared to 59 percent of those who killed a white."
I immediately noted the article gives the race of the person killed, but not the race of the person defending, which is the real measure. I knew that homicides overwhelming occur within ethnic groups. They're overwhelming white on white, black on black, etc.. So if defenders who kill blacks are acquitted at high rates, that means blacks who assert self defense are acquitted at high rates.
The article didn't give figures for the ethnicity of the defender, but it did give its raw data, in the form of individual files.
UPDATE: These are the results after reviewing all the files. I disregarded pending cases, and the few where ethnicity was not noted. I list here as "exonerated" all those in which charges were not filed, were dismissed, or the person was acquitted:
White defenders: 50 exonerated, 26 convicted. Exoneration rate: 65.7%
African-American defenders: 20 exonerated, 10 convicted. Exoneration rate: 66.6%
Hispanic American defenders: seven exonerated, one convicted. Exoneration rate: 87.5%.
Looking at it another way, African-Americans make up 16% of Florida's population, but 26% of persons exonerated under Florida' "no retreat" and self-defense statutes.
So in the end, no retreat or stand your ground laws actually benefit minorities compared to the rest of Floridians. African-Americans and whites are virtually tied, and Hispanics come out ahead. The Tampa Bay Times was trying to reverse the actual effects, in order to generate a story that fit its narrative."
That is great, informative data. It supports the idea that FL SYG is being applied equally, without regard to race, and the black Floridians are benefitting the most, probably because, due to the higher crime rate in the black community, they are more likely to need to defend themselves.
"Where would an interested person locate this evidence?"
Google.
https://www.google.com/search?source=hp&ei=GWfiX99SlLDk2g_6_ovQAQ&q=racist+gun+violence&oq=racist+gun+violence&gs_lcp=CgZwc3ktYWIQAzoCCAA6CAguEMcBEKMCOgIILjoLCC4QxwEQowIQkwI6BQgAEMkDOgUIABDHAzoICC4QyQMQkwJQyARYyydg4CpoAHAAeACAAZECiAHrEZIBBjEwLjYuM5gBAKABAaoBB2d3cy13aXo&sclient=psy-ab&ved=0ahUKEwifw5WNxuLtAhUUGFkFHXr_AhoQ4dUDCAg&uact=5
Unsurprisingly, there is no actual evidence behind that google search. The first hit is a Guardian article which does make the same claims as Martineed but it has no factual support. Most of the rest are about the disparate impact of gun violence, not about the racist roots of gun control.
Cool discussion technique, though. Here's similar proof Sasquatch is real.
James Pollock's comments tend to be long on drive-by pedantry and short on substantive contributions. I assume it gives him some sort of sense of gratification or superiority, even when the pedantry is off-base (as it often is). It's generally best to just ignore him.
That's a lot of words to say that I keep pointing out your mistakes.
"That’s a lot of words to say that I keep pointing out your mistakes."
And he's thorough. Sometimes he points out mistakes that you didn't even make.
I do point out that some people like to argue by presenting evidence that only exists in their imagination, yes.
"Cool discussion technique, though. Here’s similar proof Sasquatch is real."
I made no claims about proof of anything.
I was asked, and provided an answer for, locating evidence.
Yes, but, "somewhere in over 19 million search results" is not really that much help. The assumption was that, if you'd actually seen such evidence, you'd be able to point it out.
" The first hit is[...]"
The first hit is different for different people, depending as it does on the search history of the device used for the search.
That didn't used to be true but that's a good reminder for us these days. It also makes your search-terms dump even more useless since you seem to have known about it while the rest of us forgot.
Martinned, is Zwarte Piet bringing any presents this year?
Europeans lecturing us on racism is very tiring. Racism was invented by the Dutch and English.
Racism is no where close to that recent of a phenomenon.
Good reading for Sneering Euro Martinned:
https://www.americas1stfreedom.org/articles/2017/4/18/stand-your-ground-benefits-the-vulnerable-in-society/
Dear Racist Martinned, here is some more reading for you:
Blacks benefit from Florida 'Stand Your Ground' law at disproportionate rate
There is no overwhelming evidence of such, but there is biased data and opinion. Do minorities have the right to defend themselves with firearms in your world, or must they rely on the abolished or defunded police?
Interesting. I have to assume he'd not be convicted today...under today's values and mores. (But my actual--off-topic--first reaction to reading Raymond's summary was: I wonder how many people of color were on that jury?)
In Florida, Mississippi, Alabama, Texas, Arkansas and a few other states he would be convicted. The defense of self defense does not work when the defendant is African American. I thought that would be obvious.
[Citation needed]
Nice try at trolling. Black (and other minority) defendants have successfully raised SYG-style self defense as a defense in several of those states that I know of, and probably in all of them (if they have SYG laws).
Evidence?
They don't need no stinking evidence.
Sidney peddles such lies that I hope that he is not a lawyer in real life.
In 1923, I would totally agree with you, in fact there is a good probability he would have been lynched in those states before he had a trial.
But I think those facts today would get him aquitted in most states, except DC, Maryland, NY,NJ, CN, RI, and DL. Carrying a handgun would be the damning factor, no matter what the extenuating circumstances.
Remember that Wilson segregated the Federal Government, QED it hadn't been before that....
" I think those facts today would get him aquitted in most states, except DC, Maryland, NY,NJ, CN, RI, and DL."
In the sense that there isn't a state of DL, you might be right about the status of the law there. By any chance did you mean DE?
A. If it had been a white chased by a mob of blacks, I bet there wouldn't even have been an arrest.
B. Just because he was safe for the moment doesn't mean he'd be safe 30 seconds later, and while the quotes don't provide much detail, ie he heard the mob move across the street, maybe he thought that was the best chance to get away, right then.
C. If the mob was just across the street, that doesn't seem to me like he had actually retreated from danger, and so his act did not return him to danger from a safe place.
D. Isn't it legal to shoot people who you saw commit a felony, or are in the act of committing a felony? Seems like a mob, shooting in a street, is as felonious as it gets.
This whole thing smells of racist justification after the fact.
" and I shot in the direction towards Seventh street."
That's reckless.
But I note here a charge of First Degree Murder and a conviction of Manslaughter. I find that interesting.
And as to shooting people you see committing felonies? WTF?
"That’s reckless.
But I note here a charge of First Degree Murder and a conviction of Manslaughter. I find that interesting."
recklessly causing the death of another person IS manslaughter.
James, if you wish to claim racism, they'd have convicted him of first degree, legal niceties notwithstanding...
If I wished to claim racism, I'd have started by claiming racism. I didn't.
I have vague memories of it being ok to shoot someone who is committing a felony. I don't know the proper legal term. I may have missed context. But if, for instance, you saw someone being robbed at gunpoint, it was legal to shoot the robber.
Yes, you can generally use deadly force to protect yourself from a robbery. And you can generally use deadly force to defend a third person if that person would themselves be justified in using deadly force. I don't know what the state of the law was on those issues was in 1923 Washington, though. But to the extent that they didn't authorize the defendant's conduct, they strike me as awfully unjust.
"Yes, you can generally use deadly force to protect yourself from a robbery."
That is not so, quite the opposite. See Prof. Volokh's precious posts on this topic.
" But if, for instance, you saw someone being robbed at gunpoint, it was legal to shoot the robber."
If, on the other hand, what you saw was something that you misinterpreted as someone being robbed at gunpoint, you'd face civil and criminal liability for your action.
Not if your mistake was reasonable.
Using a very fluid definition of "reasonable".
As in nearly all use of force cases, the devil would be in the details. I have read stories of people being convicted of homicide in similar situations.
Firearms training experts will almost universally tell gun owners to extremely cautious about inserting themselves into situations where they don't know all the facts.
The "robber" could be the victim, who defended himself against the actual robber.
Or, he "rape victim" you defend could turn out to be a prostitute and the "rapist" you shoot could be an undercover cop making an arrest.
While the court's reasoning was totally wrong. The fact that he shot "in the direction" might have justified a manslaughter conviction, or at least such a conviction would be consistent with modern law.
Still, I think people be pursued by a violent, mob, (especially an armed one) should have broad discretion in use of force to escape.
Despite what Joe Biden says, warning shots, are almost never recommended or legal.
Use of force expert, Massad Ayoob, wrote in one of his books how a guy was found not guilty for shooting and killing a guy who had smashed the window of the car he was in, with his bare hand.
But, the man went to prison for reckless endangerment for firing warning shots in the direction of the dead man's friends, though those shots did not wound anybody.
"D. Isn’t it legal to shoot people who you saw commit a felony, or are in the act of committing a felony?"
It's traditional to hold a trial BEFORE any executions take place, felony or not.
It is common (indeed, universal to my knowledge, though I'm happy to be corrected by someone better informed) to permit the use of deadly force if reasonably necessary to terminate the commission of a set of serious crimes—though I don't believe any state extends that to any felony.
If you shoot the burglar when he first breaks into your house, you're going to get away with shooting him. If you shoot the burglar when he's running away from your house, you're going to have some 'splainin' to do, Lucy.
"defense of self and others" as justification generally requires that some person be in imminent danger
Many states allow deadly force when necessary to stop a forcible felony. Others list specific felonies. I believe the most common are murder, attempted murder, rape, kidnapping, armed robbery, arson and aggravated assault.
As noted in Prof. Volokh's previous post, it is often legal (today, that is—I have no idea what the rule was in 1923 Washington) to use deadly force to stop the commission of certain serious crimes. That frequently includes burglary, and it sounds like that might there might conceivably have been a case for that here. But no, you certainly do not have a license to use deadly force simply because you see someone committing a felony.
"castle doctrine" is that, basically, you can use deadly force to protect yourself within your home from threats that come from outside it, so this is the one that applies to shooting burglars.
Being inside your house is irrelevant to a self-defense justification, except that being inside your house was generally a waiver of the duty to retreat before resorting to self-defense, that would normally apply. As noted, both doctrines have been modified in many places in recent decades.
"This whole thing smells of racist justification after the fact."
Agreed. DC was one of the most racist areas in the US at that time, from the president on down.
"was"?
Are you required to trespass on the property of another? (I'm assuming that wasn't his back yard.)
I can see that creating even bigger problems...
The duty to retreat arises from the theory that attempting to take someone's life should occur only if there are not other options. It also has a role in putting a stop to the notion of coming upon someone you'd like to murder, picking a fistfight, and then using losing the fistfight as justification for murdering that person with a deadly weapon.
Your hypothetical has nothing to do with "duty to retreat" - it simply is not self defense.
You are not exercising self defense if you initiate the fight, or are the party that escalates the fight to using lethal force.
'Fistfights' are generally not considered lethal force, as the recent Michael Drejka case showed.
Nothing to do with "duty to retreat" except that initiating confrontation carries a duty to retreat before escalating to deadly force.
"You are not exercising self defense if you initiate the fight, or are the party that escalates the fight to using lethal force."
Tell that to George Zimmerman. He picked a fight with Trayvon Martin, lost badly, and then shot him to death. Since, as you say, this is NOT self-defense, it's no wonder that the jury convicted him of murdering the kid.
Still spewing your fantasy, I see.
If "my fantasy" is how you refer to reality, I guess so.
It is a reality that you fantasize that Zimmerman attacked Martin.
A fantasy you seem quite devoted to.
I'm sorry that reality doesn't correspond to what you want it to be.
but not very.
Actually the Sanford PD recommended manslaughter charges and the prosecutor had a solid manslaughter case. The reason Zimmerman was found not guilty was because the prosecutor overcharged which is unethical AND because a high priced jury consultant outmaneuvered the incompetent prosecutors and somehow got a biased juror on the jury. So even though the prosecutors did an awful job there was still a chance of a manslaughter conviction but the biased juror took charge which led to an acquittal.
What is the distinction between manslaughter and murder under Florida law, in your view? If Zimmerman didn't have a valid self-defense claim, it seems like a clear-cut case of murder. And of course if he did, then it wasn't a crime at all. I have trouble seeing how it could be manslaughter (except as a compromise verdict or a sort of partial act of executive clemency).
It was manslaughter because Zimmerman created the tense situation by behaving bizarrely (according to the final police report) and then Zimmerman used unreasonable force by going straight for his gun when his dominant hand was free and he knew the police and neighbors were on their way.
And how does that constitute manslaughter under Florida law? Or negate a self-defense claim, for that matter?
Many of these legal concepts are difficult for lay people like you to grasp. So a drunk driver that kills someone might not understand their behavior could lead to someone dying while they are in the drunken stupor—but that doesn’t get them off the hook for manslaughter if they kill someone while driving drunk. So Zimmerman most likely didn’t know that his bizarre behavior would lead to a physical confrontation...but a responsible adult wouldn’t behave the way he behaved towards a male teen because they know it could lead to undesirable results just like driving drunk. Furthermore most non-pussy males wouldn’t use deadly force under the circumstances that resulted from Zimmerman’s bizarre behavior.
Florida law creates strict liability for manslaughter if you kill someone while driving drunk, so I don't know that that example is the best illustration of your point. See Fla. Stat. § 316.193(3)(c)(3). But I recognize that other states without such a law would be able to pursue a manslaughter theory on those facts. (I suppose you could in Florida too, if for some reason the prosecutor wanted to.)
The problem with your theory, I think, is that manslaughter in Florida must be "cause[d]" by the defendant's "culpable negligence". Fla. Stat. § 782.07(1). However "bizarre" you might find Zimmerman's behavior, I don't see how he was negligent as to the risk that it would cause someone's death. And indeed, Martin wasn't killed by the bizarre behavior—he was killed by Zimmerman shooting him. And Zimmerman almost assuredly had the culpable mental state for murder at that when he pulled the trigger (i.e. that he had formed a conscious intent to kill Martin, or at the very least that he realized it was substantially certain to cause death or serious injury).
This sounds like an argument that Zimmerman's use of force wasn't reasonably necessary for self-defense. If accepted (and your gratuitously puerile insults don't make that especially likely), it would certainly make Zimmerman guilty. But I don't see how it could make him guilty of manslaughter rather than murder.
Of course, if you have some authority from Florida suggesting that a defendant who engages in otherwise lawful behavior, which then induces another person to unlawfully attack them, and then justifiably kills the assailant, can be guilty of manslaughter for causing their own assault, I'd be fascinated to read it. (I'll even take a non-Florida case is you've got it!)
" However 'bizarre' you might find Zimmerman’s behavior, I don’t see how he was negligent as to the risk that it would cause someone’s death."
He chose to pursue Martin after being specifically told not to, because he had an inflated sense of his authority to keep young black men out of "his" neighborhood.
Drunk driving is a crime. “Behaving bizarrely” is not s crime.
If Zimmerman had chosen not to pull his gun at any point, and instead gotten his head bashed in against the concrete and he had died. Would a crime have been committed? What exact crime and by whom?
You believe Zimmerman’s force was “reasonable” because you are a PUSSY like Zimmerman...see below for how a man would respond to a teenager getting the upper hand on you in a street fight...because apparently you get in a lot of street fights with teenage males???
I’m not sure what good your dominant hand is when you are penned to the ground and someone is pummeling your face.
We do know one thing, even if Zimmerman had a duty to retreat he had no path to retreat when he shot Martin.
But that is because you and Zimmerman are self described “pussies”. A non-pussy male would have a way out by using his dominant hand to push the teenager off of him or kick the teenager in the groin or throat. Btw, groin punches are outlawed in MMA because “ground and pound” only works of certain punches are outlawed...in a street fight groin punches aren’t outlawed.
I never said that I believe Zimmerman’s actions to be reasonable. I asked a specific question. If Zimmerman had chosen not to use his gun, and died as a result of being beaten to death, was a crime committed, and by whom?
Another commenter equated Zimmerman’s “bizarre behavior” to drunk driving, thereby making Zimmerman’s crime manslaughter instead of murder one. I’m trying to walk through that logic.
But the big difference seems to be that drunk driving is already a crime akin to reckless endangerment. So does behaving bizarrely have to be a similar crime in and of itself for that to make sense?
If so, then Zimmerman commited a crime simply by behaving bizarrely, and if he got beat to death as a result, was Zimmerman the only offender?
Or did Martin also commit a crime. Martin obviously could have retreated, but if he reasonably believed that Zimmerman’s bizarre behavior threatened his life, then maybe Martin beating Zimmerman to death would be legal.
Is that what you contend?
Or was Zimmerman’s bizarre behavior not a crime in and of itself. And Martin did not reasonably believe his life was threatened. In that case I think it’s safe to say that Martin commited some kind of crime by beating Zimmerman, and if Zimmerman had died from the beating Martin would be guilty of some kind of homicide, right?
So if Zimmerman was a “pussy” as you say - which we can judge all we want, but it’s not a crime as far as I know in any state so let’s set that aside for legal purposes - what were his legal options as a pussy? Was his only legal option, as a pussy incapable of fighting Martin off, to be at the total mercy of Martin? And if he died as a result, Martin would then be some kind of murderer, yet Zimmerman had no legal right to use deadly force to prevent that murder?
So Zimmerman’s only certain survival option against possibly being murdered at that point - as a pussy who can’t prevent being murdered without resorting to deadly force - was to commit a crime?
It seems to me that Zimmerman’s guilt or innocence of unlawful use of deadly force hinges on whether or not Zimmerman commited a crime with his bizarre behavior that made his potentially lethal beating at the hands of Martin totally legal... regardless of his overall pussyness.
I'm a bit unclear about what his supposed "bizarre behavior" was. Can somebody clarify that?
Bellmore, that’s because you are an ignoramus that hasn’t taken 5 minutes to read the police report. 😉
Well, not in a while, and I don't recall it saying anything about "bizarre" behavior. Indeed, I did a search on Zimmerman police report "bizarre", and none of the results seemed to point to the police report.
I did find a copy of the report, nothing in it about "bizarre behavior".
It does describe him bleeding from the nose and back of his head, if that's any help, but that isn't particularly bizarre after you've been brutally beaten.
Could you point out the supposed "bizarre behavior" you're referring to, ideally NOT with a link to a google search for "Zimmerman bizarre behavior"? Just tell me what you think it was.
If you read the actual “capias request” from 3/13/12 in which Serino recommends manslaughter charges then you would know in the report Serino specifically calls out several of Zimmerman’s bizarre choices leading up to the tragedy AND points out assumptions made by Zimmerman that were simply incorrect.
Sebastian, just tell me if this bizarre behavior is a crime.
Is it a crime that made Martin beating him not a crime? Or did they both commit crimes at this point?
And once Zimmerman has engaged in this bizarre behavior, Martin is legally allowed to do anything to him? Or is there a limit to how badly Martin can legally beat him before it becomes a crime?
And since Zimmerman can’t know exactly what degree of beating Martin can legally unleash on him, or if Martin will adhere to the limits of that legal beating, what are Zimmerman’s legal options at this point?
Assuming Zimmerman isn’t powerful or skilled enough to stop the the beating by any means other than using his gun, what are Zimmerman’s legal options at this point?
Does he have none other than submit to the mercy of the beater? And if he gets beaten to death it will be a legal homicide?
I think for that beating to be legal Zimmerman’s bizarre behavior would have to be a very serious crime that threatened Martin’s life, correct?
That’s the only way the beating itself becomes perfectly legal and Zimmerman has forfeited his right to defense, correct?
"Is it a crime that made Martin beating him not a crime? Or did they both commit crimes at this point?"
To answer this question accurately, you have to have unbiased knowledge of what Martin actually did, and we don't have this. All we have is Mr. zimmermann's self-serving testimony. He confronted Martin, and Martin became violent, escalating (according to Zimmermann) to the point where Zimmermann felt his life was endangered.
If you take Zimmermann's word as truth, you get one result. If you are skeptical about Zimmermann's story of events, it sure looks like he went looking for a fight with an unarmed person, knowing that he was armed. That kid brought a bag of Skittles and a bottle of Mountain Dew to a gunfight, or more correctly, a gunfight was brought to him.
"All we have is Mr. zimmermann’s self-serving testimony. He confronted Martin, and Martin became violent, escalating (according to Zimmermann) to the point where Zimmermann felt his life was endangered."
No, you're fabricating again. Martin confronted him.
How is this different from the wholesale jury nullification seen elsewhere?
"He picked a fight with Trayvon Martin, lost badly, and then shot him to death."
The problem is that there was no evidence that Zimmerman started the confrontation, and the state bears the burden of proof.
Zimmerman lied on national TV so his version of events is not credible. The Sanford PD recommended manslaughter charges against Zimmerman because they believed he wanted to be seen as a hero and Zimmerman was taking MMA classes which implies he wanted to engage in fighting. Now why would Zimmerman want to be seen as a hero—unfortunately the incompetent prosecutors didn’t find out that Zimmerman’s wife left him the night before the incident so his motive was most likely catch a thug in order to win back his wife.
You still need evidence that Zimmerman started the fight, and you haven't shown any.
No I don’t. Zimmerman initiated the incident with a 100% wrong profile of a burglar and then went on to behave bizarrely which led to a confrontation.
It doesn’t matter who started the physical confrontation (almost assuredly it was Martin who swung first), but rather who threatened the other with deadly force first (definitely Martin).
Nope, both were interested in MMA and Zimmerman was behaving bizarrely most likely because he wanted to catch a thug to be a hero in order to win back his wife who left him the night before.
Doesn’t matter
It seems to matter to you because you keep pulling “facts” out of your ass!?! You wouldn’t happen to be on Trump’s election legal super team??
Not pulling facts, but law. Legally your “facts” don’t really matter. If you want to understand self defense law, you may want to read “The Law of Self Defense”, third edition, by Andrew Branca. I have a copy in Kindle, so I can access it whenever I need to. If you want the gory, motion by motion, witness by witness, facts in the case, I might suggest his postings at the time of the trial, and the months before, at Legal Insurrection.
I read his postings at the time which is why I agreed with the Sanford PD’s recommendation of manslaughter charges. So a concealed handgun holder has a moral and legal responsibility to not escalate the situation...according to the Sanford PD Zimmerman escalated the situation with baffling behavior and tragedy ensued.
That is not what “escalation” means. Escalation is when one party first reasonably threatens the other party with imminent death or great bodily injury. Think of it as the parties trading punches, then one pulling a gun or a knife, or starts beating his head into the concrete walk or tries to strangle him. Etc. How did Zimmerman ever threaten Martin with imminent death or great bodily injury? Actually, there is no evidence that he ever threatened Martin with less than deadly force.
Legally, whatever you believe was bizarre behavior, was legally irrelevant, because it did not threaten Martin with death or great bodily injury.
"It doesn’t matter who started the physical confrontation (almost assuredly it was Martin who swung first), but rather who threatened the other with deadly force first (definitely Martin)."
Your source of information on these issues (Zimmermann himself, the only survivor or the encounter) may not be 100% accurate and unbiased.
We have corroborated evidence that Zimmermann told the 911 operator that he intended to confront the scary young black man, and that he was armed at the time. From this evidence you determine that Martin was at fault.
Our source of information on these issues is that Martin was uninjured aside from his knuckles and a gunshot wound, while Zimmerman was extensively beaten. This is simply not consistent with any rational scenario where Zimmerman attacks Martin.
Bellmore, that’s because you are an imbecile. Zimmerman is a liar and a pussy and just happened to be interested in MMA just like Martin. So we don’t know which party threw the first punch we just know which party landed the first punch.
Oh, and there was no evidence that Martin wasn’t a burglar, nor that he hadn’t been casing houses at the time. He had apparently been caught with burglary tools at school, which may have been partly why he had been suspended from school. Which probably would get over the preponderance of the evidence hurdle, if Martin had sued for defamation.
Casing houses at 7 pm on Sunday in February?? The police gave the neighborhood watch a profile of the gang members and Zimmerman believed Martin fit the profile but if you read the police report Zimmerman got the profile wrong AND Martin wasn’t part of the gang.
"Oh, and there was no evidence that Martin wasn’t a burglar"
Because this would have been evidence presented at Martin's trial for burglary, which didn't happen.
There also wasn't any evidence that Martin wasn't a fan of the Insane Clown Posse, nor any evidence that he was licensed to practice medicine, for the reason that none of these things has anything to do with whether or not the cop-wannabe shot a man to death with intent to do so.
Oh, and there was no evidence that Martin wasn’t a burglar,
There's no evidence that you're not a burglar either.
'MMA classes which implies he wanted to engage in fighting.' Or that he was interested in self-defense, but why stray from your biased narrative?
Both were interested in MMA...what a coincidence!!
"The problem is that there was no evidence that Zimmerman started the confrontation"
Unless you count Zimmerman's own testimony as evidence. How did they come to be in the same place? Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, after he was told not to.
You have a weird definition of "confrontation", then. I have friendly "confrontations" with people all the time by that standard, and none of them end in fist fights.
"How did they come to be in the same place? Zimmerman was pursuing Martin, after he was told not to..."
The evidence indicated that Martin was a few minutes ahead of Zimmerman. And the dispatcher testified that he did not tell Zimmerman not to pursue Martin.
the dispatcher testified that he did not tell Zimmerman not to pursue Martin.
Really?
Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Dispatcher: Okay, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Okay.
"We don't need you to do that" is not ordering someone not to do something. It could best be categorized as a "suggestion".
The dispatcher had no legal authority to order GZ to do or not do anything.
Perhaps more importantly, note GZ's response, "Okay".
Contrary to the shameless lies in the media, Zimmerman accepted the advice of the dispatcher and started to head back to his vehicle, before he was assaulted by Trayvon Martin.
That is one of Zimmerman’s baffling actions leading up to the tragedy. So initially Zimmerman glared at Martin while not informing Martin that he was a concerned citizen because he was in fear of Martin...but then he leaves his safe space to follow someone he fears. Of course Zimmerman knew he was packing heat while he had identified Martin as a teenager and the gang Zimmerman had incorrectly profiled Martin to be in didn’t commit armed robbery.
Anyway, once everyone found out Zimmerman’s wife left him the night before it should be obvious what was going on—Zimmerman wanted to finally be the hero and win back his wife.
"Really?"
Really. From the dispatcher's testimony:, at around 13 minutes:
Q: You would not, as a call-taker, order a person to either follow or not follow.
A: That's correct.
Again, you are confused. Picking a fight and duty to retreat have nothing to do with each other.
As for Zimmerman, you are lying again about the case. Witness testimony, plus the physical evidence, concluded that Martin attacked Zimmerman, your delusional insistence to the contrary notwithstanding.
"Again, you are confused. Picking a fight and duty to retreat have nothing to do with each other."
Again, you think reality is confusing for some reason.
Perhaps you should discuss the topic with Prof. Volokh. He doesn't seem to agree with you, or at least, he didn't in 2013:
http://volokh.com/2013/07/17/duty-to-retreat/
What in that post do you think supports your position?
The part that supports my position. Do you read English above a grade-school level?
I've seen this thing in other contexts before. People who have become so convinced of something that you ask them for proof they're right, and they'll literally show you proof they're wrong, thinking it proves them right.
There are some anti-psychotics that might help you, look into it.
"Picking a fight" is initiating a conflict, a factor in a self defense determination that indicates that you began threatening someone else.
"Duty to retreat" is a condition applied when someone else threatens you.
If you "picked a fight", there is no duty to retreat because you are not qualified to claim self defense.
If you have a "duty to retreat", you have otherwise met the criteria for self defense, which means you did not initiate the conflict.
This is a very simple concept you seem unable to grasp.
As for the old post, it doesn't say anything about initiating a fight vs duty to retreat, so you are confused there as well.
If you actually want to understand, rather than persist in your... confusion, try reading self defense law specialist Andrew Branca's Law of Self-Defense - it explains quite well what the factors of self defense are, and how they are applied in practice in the various forms states have chosen for their laws.
Zimmerman had a concealed handgun which means he has a legal and moral responsibility to not escalate the situation because Zimmerman knows he is packing heat and he has identified the other party as a teenage male. Zimmerman escalated the situation by making bizarre choices that baffled the Sanford PD lead investigator which is why he recommended manslaughter charges.
Zimmerman did NOT initiate a fight. There is zero evidence to support this claim and a lot of evidence to refute it.
I would like the "Zimmerman started it" crowd to consider this:
Suppose a white teenager was walking through the neighborhood of a 30ish black man, and apparently casing houses. Suppose the black man, called 911, then asked the white teen what he was doing in the neighborhood.
Would that give the white teen the right to punch the black man in the nose, breaking it, and then jump on top of him, rain blows on him, MMA style and then start pounding the black man's head against the concrete?
Pollock says:
"Tell that to George Zimmerman. He picked a fight with Trayvon Martin, lost badly, and then shot him to death. Since, as you say, this is NOT self-defense, it’s no wonder that the jury convicted him of murdering the kid."
1. Zimmerman didn't pick a fight with Martin, Martin jumped Zimmerman from behind. Fact presented at trial.
2. the jury didn't convict him, they acquitted him.
Nope, Zimmerman stated they exchanged words before the physical altercation. Nice try though. 😉
Fair enough. My recollection was faulty. (I watched the entire trial.)
"According to an Orlando Sentinel story later confirmed by Sanford police, Zimmerman tells authorities that, after Zimmerman briefly lost track of Martin, the teen approached him. After the two exchange words, Zimmerman says, he reaches for his cell phone, and then Martin punches him in the nose. Zimmerman says Martin pins him to the ground and begins slamming his head into the sidewalk."
Perhaps Zimmerman didn't expect to be punched?
Zimmerman is a known liar—HE IS NOT CREDIBLE!! But both parties were interested in MMA and Zimmerman’s MMA instructor said Zimmerman was a pussy. So we only know Martin landed the first punch not which party threw the first punch.
Will you cut it out with the p-word? Does it give you some kind thrill to keep writing it, or something?
It's clear you wanted Zimmerman convicted, that you somehow think Martin was an innocent victim. Why you believe that I cannot fathom. It turned out to be pretty clear cut.
No, if you believe Zimmerman’s force was “reasonable” then you are a pussy just like Zimmerman.
Incorrect. Even when there is no duty to retreat, you cannot legally use force in self-defense if you are the initial physical aggressor, if you intentionally provoked the other person into attacking you so you could use force against them, or if you and the other party are engaged in mutual combat.
As above, tell this to George Zimmerman. He came away from the court system with an understanding that his shooting of an unarmed kid was justified.
And if the jury had been convinced beyond a reasonable doubt that Zimmerman had "[i]nitially provoke[d] the use or threatened use of force against himself" they would have convicted him. Fla. Stat. § 776.041(2).
The jury rationalized a way to disbelieve Zimmermann's own story of the conflict.
Okay? What does that have to do with your inaccurate claim about the scope and purpose of the duty to retreat?
Nothing, because to have something to do with my inaccurate claim about the scope and purpose of the duty to retreat, there would first need to exist a "my inaccurate claim" which there is not.
The jury heard the facts of what happened and rightly decided that Martin had started the fight.
There was ZERO evidence that Zimmerman did anything wrong, much less anything that would justify Martin sucker punching him, breaking his nose, jumping on top of him, raining blows on him, MMA style and pounding his head against the concrete.
It is sad that people choose to believe the race batiers' fiction about what happened that night, rather than the facts, which were proven in court with eye and ear witnesses testimony, phone records and recordings and forensic evidence.
It was a street feet so in a street fight “ground and pound” is a stupid move that leaves one vulnerable to groin and throat punches. Zimmerman is a self described “pussy” that chose to use his free dominant hand to go for his gun instead of using what he learned in his MMA class...the last of a series of baffling actions by Zimmerman.
That his shooting of an unarmed "kid" who was beating him to death at the time was justified.
That, "who was beating him to death at the time" bit was pretty relevant.
Lol, no. Once again, Zimmerman’s defense was that Zimmerman was a pussy and a jury of 6 women believed his force was reasonable in light of him being a big pussy. So if you believe Zimmerman’s force was reasonable that makes you a big pussy. Remember, the people in the Sanford PD aren’t pussies which is why they recommended manslaughter charges against Zimmerman.
"Remember, the people in the Sanford PD aren’t pussies..."
[citation needed]
Sanford PD looks pretty good in all of this—Crump and Sharpton and the prosecutors all look bad and their actions led to Zimmerman eventually being acquitted. A high priced jury consultant also did a very good job AND the best witness was Zimmerman’s MMA instructor that had a very good reason to hate the prosecutors because he was literally being prosecuted on trumped up charges and he stood strong...good for him but bad for justice all around.
The Sanford PD investigated thoroughly and got an almost immediate, videotaped, detailed statement from Zimmerman and correctly determined that Zimmerman acted within the law and that there was no case against him.
It wasn't until the race hustlers, Left Wing media and politicians demanded charges that a corrupt special prosecutor filed false charges.
I watched nearly all the trial, and Zimmerman would have been acquitted even if the defense rested without presenting a case, The prosecution witnesses were as helpful to the defense case as the defense witnesses.
BTW, what is the root of your misogyny? You have repeatedly implied that women are unfit to be jurors. In your mind, have women "mistreated" you, during your life?
I think the root of my misogyny is that I’m a Republican and much of conservatism is based on perpetuating misogyny.
The Sanford PD recommended manslaughter charges because they were baffled by Zimmerman’s bizarre behavior...but once everyone found out Zimmerman’s wife left him the night before his behavior makes more sense because he wanted to be a hero to win her back.
Doesn’t matter. You try to knock my wife to the ground and I shoot you to protect her, that is most likely justified self defense, because knocking her to the ground is likely to result in her death or great bodily injury. She has had a bunch of disks in her neck and back replaced, and that means that being knocked to the ground is almost assured of causing at least great bodily injury. If Zimmerman reasonably believed that he was in imminent danger of death or great bodily injury, then his self defense was legally justified, where it probably wouldn’t have been if their positions had been reversed. Think of it as the thin skulled victim we learned about in law school.
Nope, it is the reasonable person standard which is why it was so important to get 6 women on the 6 person jury...and to get his MMA instructor to testify that Zimmerman was a big pussy. Of course we know the MMA instructor had an axe to grind with the prosecutors because he was being prosecuted on trumped up charges.
So you're saying women automatically aren't reasonable people.
Wow. That's quite sexist.
I’m a Republican so I get that all the time. But the issue is if a man is on top of a woman beating her then a woman would believe lethal force is reasonable...but only a pussy man would believe lethal force is reasonable in that situation.
I'm not clear why you keep bringing this "pussy" business up. Even supposing it to be true, what would the relevance be?
Zimmerman’s defense team portrayed Zimmerman as a pussy so his use of force would seem reasonable to the all women jury. Defense teams have strategies which you are somehow unaware of??
Under self defense law, regarding disparity of force, the defendant being what you call a "pussy" can actually legitimate factor in the totality of the circumstances the determine whether a use of lethal force is justified.
If Zimmerman was a 6'5" 230 lb former Navy Seal, and an expert in martial arts, he wouldn't have needed to shoot Martin.
But, the fact that a victim is weaker or less able to fight than his/her violent attacker does not make that person "a pussy".
I agree, and it was also why a high priced jury consultant apparently wanted a jury of 6 women.
"That his shooting of an unarmed “kid” who was beating him to death at the time was justified.
That, “who was beating him to death at the time” bit was pretty relevant."
Being beaten in a fistfight YOU STARTED doesn't justify use of deadly force (unless you are wearing a badge at the time.)
The fight was started by Trayvon Martin who knocked Zimmerman to the ground, sat on top of him and started beating his head into the concrete sidewalk, causing fear of death or serious injury.
Stand Your Ground WAS NOT A FACTOR in the Trayvon Martin case. The prior standard, Duty to Retreat, requires you to retreat ONLY IF YOU CAN RETREAT WITH COMPLETE SAFETY. This did not apply to Zimmerman, who was lying on the ground, not standing on it, unable to retreat, with Trayvon Martin on top of him beating his head into the concrete. The defense did not claim Stand Your Ground because it was an ordinary self defense case.
"The fight was started by Trayvon Martin"
Well, that's certainly the story of one of the participants. Why don't we ask the other one?
It's also the story of the prosecution's star witness - Martin's girlfriend, who was on the phone with him when Martin told her he was going to kick the ass of some "creepy white cracker" whom he thought might be "a rapist".
Yup, Trayvon Martin profiled Zimmerman based upon race and perceived sexual preference and used a racial slur to describe him, before assaulting him and trying to kill him.
If Martin had survived, he would have been subject to prosecution for a hate crime.
Wrong, Zimmerman admitted to glaring at Martin in a very strange manner.
If I come up to you and ask what you are doing in my neighborhood... and even if I do that with all the malice I can muster... and you respond by punching me then a) who is the pussy who can't have a conversation and b) who started NOT THE CONVERSATION but the ALTERCATION?
Zimmerman initiated the series of events by initially glaring at Martin while not explaining what was going on...the Sanford PD found Zimmerman’s behavior baffling which is why they recommended manslaughter charges.
"If I come up to you and ask what you are doing in my neighborhood"
If I don't feel like talking to you and try to leave, so you grab hold of me and demand again, you don't get to complain about how aggressive *I* was in resisting your demands.
Exactly.....
It was justified. And his story was fully corroborated by the forensic evidence. Remember that? Zimmerman’s blood on the sidewalk? Gash in the back of his head? Defensive wounds on him, offensive wounds on Martin? Strangle marks on Zimmerman’s throat? Fatal gunshot trajectory showing that Martin was sitting on top of him, and leaning over him at the time?
All that tells you is Zimmerman was a pussy which was already part of the court records.
Poor Sebastian Cremmington. He wants to ambush people and beat their heads into the concrete sidewalk without getting shot by them. So unfair.
Who is actually the pussy here?
Zimmerman said they exchanged words before it turned physical. But you are the pussy if you believe lethal force was reasonable because Zimmerman is a pussy that used lethal force after creating a tense situation with bizarre behavior...6 women found his use of lethal force reasonable. This Florida jury consisted of only 6 people btw.
You are a remarkable individual. You believe that the verdict of 6 impartial women is invalid based upon their gender.
Doing neighborhood watch is "bizarre" behavior? That is an interesting definition of "bizarre". Personally, I find attacking a man, without provocation, breaking his nose, jumping on top of him, raining blow on him and pounding his head against the concrete to better fit the definition of "bizarre". YMMV.
Nope, the Sanford PD was baffled by Zimmerman’s bizarre behavior leading up to the tragedy.
"Doing neighborhood watch is “bizarre” behavior? "
Doing neighborhood watch in somebody else's neighborhood is.
What the hell is an "offensive wound"?
You're not familiar with the forensic distinction between offensive and defensive wounds?
If I were to punch you in the mouth, you'd get a cut lip, possibly lose a tooth or two. I'd likely cut my hand on your teeth.
The gashed knuckle would be an "offensive wound".
Martin was so busy beating Zimmerman to death that he damaged his knuckles...
Wrong, Zimmerman was a self described pussy that for some reason didn’t use his MMA training to fight back and instead chose to use his free dominant hand to go straight for his concealed handgun.
"If I were to punch you in the mouth, you’d get a cut lip, possibly lose a tooth or two. I’d likely cut my hand on your teeth."
You'd get some other injuries, too. But I don't routinely carry so you might survive the attempt.
Actually this case seems a lot more apropos of the Kyle Rittenhouse shootings than Zimmerman and Trayvon.
Armed Mob - check
Initial retreat- check
Other shots fired first -check
Multiple encounters with mob - check
Of course I don’t think anyone who saw the videos can say Rittenhouse had a safe path to retreat since he was running directly to police lines when he tripped and the mob caught up with him, and certainly surrendering his gun to the mob doesn’t seem like a prudent choice, at least to me.
🙂
I agree, Rittenhouse was correct to use lethal force on the first two nuts but the third that he injured might be like this case.
I think all 3 shootings were justified, but the first one was the most questionable.
I think the 3rd one was the most clearly justified. The felon he shot feigned retreat. and then pulled a pistol to try to kill Rittenhouse.
Nope, the first guy was literally suicidal and so it was most likely a suicide by cop situation. The 3rd shooting which only led to injury is the most problematic but by that time Rittenhouse was correctly in fear of his life and the mob was making the situation worse. Anyway, the guy is still alive so we will get to hear how side. Hopefully Rittenhouse gets tried as a juvenile and gets time served and then matures.
By this argument, any mass shooting is justified because having shot somebody, the shooter must expect return fire and therefore is in fear of losing his own life.
"Hopefully Rittenhouse [..] matures."
Yes, hopefully.
Keep in mind the first two guys he killed weren’t protesters they were homeless deranged criminals according to the WaPo. So in general you want to avoid putting yourself in a situation in which you must defend yourself from a mob of suicidal lunatics. 😉
Keep in mind that nobody else that night found it necessary to kill anybody.
If you go out looking for a fight, you can probably find one. If you do it while armed, and someone winds up shot to death, you aren't a victim.
Not quite accurate - you can be the original aggressor, and legitimately claim the use of deadly force in self defense, if the other party is the one to escalate to the threatened use of deadly force.
This means that if Zimmerman had attacked Martin first, but Martin then knocked him to the ground, beat his head into the concrete walk, and tried to strangle him, Zimmerman would have still been legally justified in the use of deadly force in self defense. Of course, all the real evidence showed that Martin snuck up on him, sucker punched him, before knocking him to the ground, and commenced trying to kill him.
Nope, Zimmerman stated that they exchanged words before the physical altercation began. Nice try though. 😉
So who started the altercation at that point? You just admitted that there was no altercation during the "bizarre behavior" or during the initial conversation. So up until this point no one has done anything to put anyone in danger... no altercation yet existed.
Zimmerman says "Whatcha doin?" and Martin responds how? At what point, and by with what action by which actor, does this altercation begin?
We don’t know which party started the physical altercation...we just know Martin landed the first blows. We also know the adult was armed and he had identified Martin as a teenager AND Zimmerman knew neighbors were around and the cops were on the way.
"We don’t know which party started the physical altercation"
We know that Z went off in pursuit of M, and we know that eventually they came to be in the same place, in violent confrontation. So, nope, no idea who started it.
"So who started the altercation at that point?"
Depends... did stalking Martin put him in fear of his life? If so, then his actions to preserve his own life are justified, and Zimmermann is a murderer. We'll just have to ask Martin if he was in fear at that time, and... oh, yeah.
"Picking a fistfight" - "That would be "provocation with intent". A claim of self defense cannot be made when that is the case.
Zimmerman is a known liar but we know for a fact he took MMA classes. Plus Zimmerman’s MMA instructor was by far his best witness and at the time he was the subject of a trumped up prosecution so he had a very obvious axe to grind with the prosecutors.
The problem with this fact pattern vis a vis self defense is it is not clear if he shot with any specificity or rather just into a mob of people where, arguably, he may have had a self defense claim against one person who was directing potentially deadly force in his direction, but there is no claim in the fact pattern that he accurately tagged that perp.
Yeah, I'd say that's the real problem in this case. He seems to have, by the account, merely shot randomly into the mob.
I don't know about DC but there is a California precedent that has been followed in at least one other state People v. Minifie that held that ""evidence of threats is ... admissible [to establish reasonable self-defense - VoR] where the threats have not been made by the victim, but by members of a group who in the defendant's mind are reasonably associated with the victim". A jury could find that the victim here was reasonably associated with the other mob members who were making threats, even if the victim himself couldn't be shown to have made the threats.
If this sounds strange you need to remember that the reasoning behind the justification of self-defense isn't that the victim got what was coming to him (though I'm sure many commenters here would disagree), it is that the accused acted reasonably to protect himself from a threat.
I don't disagree, but by what we have presented here, this guy was like... 1/10th ass discerning as a Kyle Rittenhouse, and that claim might be a bit slanderous to Rittenhouse. The defendant's own statement was, " I shot in the direction towards Seventh street. " He didn't even (at least here) claim to have identified one or more individuals with arms that he targeted (even if he missed, I understand people missing).
Given what the Prof presented, Manslaughter is probably the proper charge, possibly even depraved heart murder (murder 1 or 2 depending on your jurisdiction these days).
He claimed the mob was firing at him and he fired back:
“the mob came across from the south side of the street, firing and hollering 'Let's kill the nigger.' The mob was firing at me, and I shot in the direction towards Seventh street. I fired to protect my life…”
I’d say when a there is mass of people baying for blood and shooting, then shooting back at the mob is as good of target discrimination that could be required.
You'd be right if shooting at a mob were a viable way of making the mob stop shooting at you. We've had firearms in warfare for a couple of centuries now... does shooting at the enemy army make them stop shooting at you?
Allutz, that was exactly the point. If the California rule were followed here, the defendant wouldn't have to have "identified one or more individuals with arms that he targeted", it would have been acceptable to use deadly force against any member of the mob.
" it would have been acceptable to use deadly force against any member of the mob."
Assuming that anyone who was hit was a member of the mob, and not a bystander.
California is a "stand your ground" state.
The "duty to retreat" is as offensive to a just society as a heckler's veto. A law-abiding citizen's rights should never be conditional on someone else's illegal actions.
If you're a law-abiding citizen, you don't have a right to kill other people, so your right to shoot people to death hasn't been infringed.
As a description of the current state of the law, this is simply incorrect: it is absolutely and unequivocally legal in every jurisdiction in the country to kill other people in certain circumstances.
I didn't say it was unequivocably illegal to kill other people in all circumstances. I said you don't have a right to kill other people. And that is still true.
If you'd rather put words in my mouth because they're easier to refute, there's no point in wasting your time or mine.
Someone is trying to kill you. Wrongly... they have no right to do it. You just said so. They have fired a shot at you... hit you in the leg no less. You are immobilized and unable to get away.
If you kill them at this point... according to you... you have violated someone's rights and are a murderer.
Wow...
"If you kill them at this point… according to you…"
Not according to me, you fucking idiot. I refer you back to the original post to which I responded:
" A law-abiding citizen’s rights should never be conditional on someone else’s illegal actions."
Please come back when you develop functional reasoning skills.
What is the difference you envision between being legally permitted to do something, and having the right to do it?
The difference between the law and the general population's moral views, on the one hand, and Pollock's own eccentric view of the matter.
Which is it that you find eccentric:
Not having a general right to kill people?
Or
justification sometimes creating such a right?
(and which one is at odds with the law and the "general population's moral views"?
"What is the difference you envision between being legally permitted to do something, and having the right to do it?"
Hell if I know. WTF are you talking about?
As Noscitur points out, that is wrong in literally ever jurisdiction - not merely in this country but on the planet.
You're both wrong, but for different reasons.
It’s interesting how you phrased that. So if you’re not a law abiding citizen, then you do have the right to shoot people to death?
I’d think it would literally be the opposite, If a law abiding citizen shoots someone to death then it’s by definition not a crime because if it were, he wouldn’t be a law abiding citizen. So it must be some kind of legal shooting... which you MUST acknowledge that such a thing exists. Or do you believe that law abiding citizens have a duty to die rather than defend themselves?
Non-law-abiding citizens by definition don't follow the law, so it's safe to assume when they kill someone, it was unlawful.
" Or do you believe that law abiding citizens have a duty to die rather than defend themselves?"
Do you believe stupid people have a duty to say stupid things, or do you just volunteer?
Describing someone as non-law-abiding doesn't generally mean that the person literally breaks the law with every action they take.
"Describing someone as non-law-abiding doesn’t generally mean that the person literally breaks the law with every action they take."
OK... would you like to go on and try to make a point?
I try to engage with you in a civil manner and you resort to insults. No wonder you’re thought in such high regard around here.
You made a moronic statement putting words into someone’s mouth then took offense at your own words being taken literally.
Obviously there are justifiable uses of force, when your right to not be attacked or right to be where you are peacefully is infringed.
The commenter said the duty to retreat is akin to a heckler’s veto. It’s a point that many legal scholars have made and the law in many states reflects it.
No one suggested you have the right to kill an innocent person. You have the right to defend yourself when physically attacked if you’re somewhere that you have every right to be.
In the Trayvon Martin case, if you believe that Martin was so scared for his life that he felt the need to pound Zimmerman’s head into the ground, wouldn’t he have had a duty to retreat in your legal world?
Actually Zimmerman said he was in fear of Martin...and yet he left his safe place to “track” Martin. Of course Zimmerman knew he had a concealed handgun and thus had a moral and legal responsibility to not escalate the situation...and the Sanford PD believed Zimmerman escalated the situation which ended in tragedy so they recommended manslaughter charges.
"You made a moronic statement putting words into someone’s mouth then took offense at your own words being taken literally.
Obviously there are justifiable uses of force"
I accused you of being stupid and you proceeded to demonstrate that I was correct to do so.
"Obviously there are justifiable uses of force" is exactly the position I took, genius, in response to a claim that there isn't any such thing as justification.
Well actually you do have a clearly established right to kill people, when you reasonably think you or someone else is in danger of death or great bodily harm. In all 50 states you have that right.
Go back and read the comment I responded to. It seems your issue is with that person, not me.
Surprised it took so many comments before this was pointed out. It was my initial thinking as well.
I need more information. Was anyone wearing a red hat?
This was before Linux was invented.
We have had this discussion before, where the duty before the law is to mitigate damages even when one is being damaged. But the racial component of this case renders that concept irrelevant here. I suggest anyone who doubts that go back to the history books and take a look at the racial bigotry and animus present in Woodrow Wilson and his administration.
As I understand it, the duty to retreat comes from English Commn Law, and has been statutorily overridden in 49 states, with the 50th (Ohio) currently in te process of doing so. Or something like that.
The problem with it is that it was being used by prosecutors to overcome perfectly good self defense claims, convicting people of homicide at some level, who shouldn’t have been. The problem is that in an era of modern firearms, you often have only seconds to defend yourself. If someone points a gun at you, you either shoot them immediately, or get shot. Etc. Moreover, the natural tendency is to fixate on life and death threats, at the expense of most everything else - you often get tunnel vision. The problem is that with seconds to react, and undergoing high stress, and experiencing tunnel vision, it is easy for someone to miss seeing an Avenue of retreat. The prosecutors and their investigators are not so constrained - they can spend weeks, if not months, looking for avenues of retreat, that the defendant didn’t see. And, in states that retained the Retreat Doctrine, that resulted in negating the defendant’s self defense claim, and a conviction for the resulting death. This prosecutorial overreach is why the Retreat Doctrine, no matter how logically justifiable it might be, has been almost uniformly abrogated by statute in this country.
"The problem with it is that it was being used by prosecutors to overcome perfectly good self defense claims, convicting people of homicide"
Except that prosecutors don't convict people. They present evidence which causes juries to convict.
But for the prosecutor ignoring the ethical merits of the law and instead applying it in a case where it ethically is not intended nor just... the jury wouldn't have mattered.
But prosecutors don't apply the law, ethically merited or otherwise. They present evidence against the accused.
" the jury wouldn’t have mattered."
The jury's role is to decide what the facts were. If facts don't matter, then juries don't matter. I do not take this position.
"Except that prosecutors don’t convict people. They present evidence which causes juries to convict."
Juries convict, but they are obligated to follow the law. If the law contains an unreasonable duty to retreat, that makes what would seem to be a lawful defensive use of lethal force, unlawful, the jury would have no option, short of jury nullification, but to convict.
"Juries convict, but they are obligated to follow the law."
YMMV
" If someone points a gun at you, you either shoot them immediately, or get shot."
See a doctor about that itchy trigger finger, it's going to get somebody hurt, quite possibly very badly.
either that, or quit getting everything you know about guns from Hollywood.
I think you may be getting the duty to retreat confused with the allocation of the burden of proof on self-defense—Prof. Volokh's linked post breaks states down 35-15 on the former issue, but it is true that only Ohio requires the defendant to prove self-defense (and they may be trying to change that, for all I know), though note that placing the burden on the defendant was the common law rule.
As for your second point, I'd be interested if you have any examples. As I noted in my comment in the last thread, I'm a little skeptical that the existence vel non of a duty to retreat has a lot of practical significance in real cases, but I'd certainly be interested to learn about counter examples.
Stand your ground is not the law in 49 states. Currently 35 states are stand your ground.
Brown v United States: "“Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife. Therefore, in this Court, at least, it is not a condition of immunity that one in that situation should pause to consider whether a reasonable man might not think it possible to fly with safety or to disable his assailant rather than to kill him.”"
It is a well-settled rule that, before a person can avail himself of the plea of self-defense against the charge of homicide
Whos rule? Who settled it? I dont see any statute cited.
Or is this another case of judges applying there personal standard inplace of the will of the people.
Castle laws and Stand your Ground laws were drafted and passed by the peoples elected representatives, to slap back extra legal rulings from the bench. Now judges are taking it upon themselves to overturn the will of the people.
"Whos rule? Who settled it? I dont see any statute cited."
justifications as defenses to crimes come to us from the English Common law, not statutes.
Actually, many jurisdictions have codified (and in doing, sometimes modified) justification defenses. I'd guess that it's a majority of states at this point, though I haven't taken a count.
"Actually, many jurisdictions have codified (and in doing, sometimes modified) justification defenses. "
Which changes where they came from in what exact manner?
Sounds like a terribly decided case.
Mr. Laney, being an open-minded individual, saw the mob members as individuals, and knew that just because some of them wanted to kill him didn't mean that they all did. Unfortunately he was wrong in this particular instance, but he was correct to give them the benefit of the doubt.
The racist and bigoted judge, OTOH, saw the mob members as a homogenous block based on skin color, and incorrectly decided that Mr. Laney should treat the mob as a single unit.
Terrible.
It definitely seems like racial prejudice affected that ruling. It feels like the judge used an unreasonable interpretation of the duty to retreat as a hook to justify convicting the black man for firing at an angry mob of white men, intent on harming him.
The public is sick of these pro-criminal lawyer bullshit games. The criminal cannot be stopped until the lawyer profession is crushed.
Sure, legal defense helps criminals. It also helps people incorrectly classed as "criminals". since I am not a criminal, I want there to be someone who will help me if I am incorrectly considered to be "criminal".
Fortunately for you, lawyers protect idiots as well as criminals (to the extent these categories do not overlap.)
I wonder what the DC Court's 1923 decision would have been if the defendant had been White and the mob had been Black -- sorry "Colored". We'd never know, because the all-White jury would have acquitted even if the all-White prosecutor's office had brought charges, which they probably wouldn't have.
There's a reason that we should be leery of legal rules like "duty to retreat". Even under the best of circumstances, even if there's no reason to suspect prejudice for or against the defendant by the police, prosecutors, judge, and/or jury. The defendant acted under the stress of an immediate and apparent threat, but the jury sits in a paneled room, surrounded by police and bailiffs, lunch provided, and decides whether they think the defendant's actions were reasonable. "Stand your ground" sounds macho to some here. To me, "Duty to retreat" sounds like arm-chair, after-the-fact, second-guessing.
"The defendant acted under the stress of an immediate and apparent threat"
Well, he SAYS he did, anyway. The problem with your theory is that, should it come up at a trial, say, you only have the one guy's story about what happened, since the other guy isn't alive any more to tell his side.
"well, I was scared for my life, so I had no choice but to shoot him!" sounds like the defendant was under stress and felt threatened, but it shouldn't be a case of "you said the magic words... you go free."
If a guy walks into the liquor store, and demands all the money in the till, he doesn't get to then complain that the store owner pulled a shotgun on him.
.
Lucky for us we have this thing called forensic science. In some cases, granted not all and never with 100% perfection, it is almost as if another witness (the physical world) got to tell their story. And it doesn't always support the person who lived.
"Lucky for us we have this thing called forensic science."
Somebody has an inflated opinion of the effectiveness of forensic science. Hollywood may not have been 100% accurate when they made TV shows about forensic scientists.
Presumably in this case the members of the mob who didn't get shot were also available to testify.
Regardless, the problem with the court's theory is that they concluded that even if you believed everything that the defendant said, it wouldn't be a viable case of self-defense. That's the part that people are objecting to.
"Presumably in this case the members of the mob who didn’t get shot were also available to testify."
How do you subpeona a mob?
It sounds like this has nothing to do with stand your ground vs duty to retreat. He could choose to retreat into the back yard or have a duty to do so and, once having retreated, he can’t return to the street even if he could have stood his ground.
That part was unclear to me too. At first I thought it was a random backyard, but when I read the part where the judge said that the defendant could have chosen to enter his home through the back instead of going around to the front yard, I thought maybe this was the defendant’s home. Which raises the question if Castle Doctrine applies on the grounds of your home rather than just inside your home.
Occasionally I reread “A Nation of Cowards" to understand why others think we need to accept bullying, threatening, and harassment to prove we are civilized. Presumably, if we all just back down from the aggressors, they’ll lose interest and go away? Somehow, zero tolerance and total tolerance transition at age 18.
http://davekopel.org/2A/Foreign/SelfDefense-Equalizer.pdf
You're misapplying "zero tolerance".
Actual "zero tolerance" came about because some people with positions of authority were using it in fundamentally unfair and unequal ways. So, for example, school administrators would apply discipline in such a way that favored students would not receive any punishment for violations of rules, while other students would face severe punishment for the exact same transgressions. As a result of this, a new rule comes down the bureaucracy, stripping the discretion of the authority figures... all transgressions are to be punished exactly the same way, as if a maximum possible infraction had occurred. So, zero tolerance for drugs and weapons in the schools means that one student giving another student a Midol pill is treated exactly the same as if it were a multi-kilo meth deal, and a kid who points a finger at another student and says "bang!" gets the same treatment as the one who brings a loaded .45. "Zero tolerance" rules ARE stupid, but they didn't come about because of stupidity, they're a response to an actual, real problem. "But we couldn't suspend him, just because we found cocaine in his locker. He's our star linebacker and our rivalry game is next week!" is an abuse of discretion.
I prefer the term 'fall back to a more defensible position' to "retreat".
Advance to the rear and call in an airstrike.
I can't afford a plane; maybe drones.
Personally owned armed drones could create some very interesting 2nd Amendment and self defense cases in the near future.
"I can’t afford a plane; maybe drones."
Build alliances.
Correct, Sun Tzu—if your enemy is in superior strength, evade him. See General Sam Houston’s actions after the Alamo.
The court showed a touching concern for the lives of members of rampaging mobs.
Well said. Rampaging mobs she have close to no rights to safety from the people they are assaulting and terrorizing.
That was a horrendous decision. I imagine race played a role in it.
He was perfectly within his rights to try to leave the area and go to his place of employment, especially given the fact that mob had refocused its rages elsewhere.
Also, I believe he had the right to try to defend the family across the street that was under attack from the mob.
I doubt the decision would be the same today, except maybe in a few anti-gun states.
This case brings up the issue of defense against mob violence. I think legislatures should look into codifying expanded self defense laws for victims of violent mobs.
IMO, a mob of looters and rioters is often an imminent, lethal threat to everyone in the area in which they are rampaging.
"IMO, a mob of looters and rioters is often an imminent, lethal threat to everyone in the area in which they are rampaging."
Yeah! They should make rioting and looting against the law or something.