Remaking how humans work is a core part of every tech revolution, which the Austrian economist Joseph Schumpeter called "creative destruction"—a process that "incessantly revolutionizes the economic structure from within, incessantly destroying the old one, incessantly creating a new one."
Creative destruction doesn't only destroy jobs; it also creates new and better ones. "Humans have been doing robot jobs," says Flo Crivello, the founder and CEO of Lindy, which is building an artificial intelligence–powered personal assistant. "I think it's tragic that we're having humans perform such basic tasks all day."
"People mistakenly believe that there is a fixed amount of work to be performed in the economy," says Crivello. "The reality of it is that human needs and wants are infinite. The lifestyle that you and I live is actually better than the lifestyle of Louis XVI. And we still want more."
Technology frees up resources to create jobs that people in the past could never have imagined. And, no, this time isn't different.
Photos: Tropenmuseum, part of the National Museum of World Cultures, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons; Library of Congress; JD Lasica, CC BY 2.0, via Wikimedia Commons; Joe Mabel, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons; University of South Florida Special Collections / Library of Congress / Hulton-Deutsch Collection – CORBIS; Artvee; FOTO:FORTEPAN / Urbán Tamás, via Wikimedia Commons; Envato Elements; Polygoon-Profilti (producent) / Nederlands Instituut voor Beeld en Geluid (beheerder), via Wikimedia Commons.
Music: "Center of Gravity," by Phutureprimitive via Artlist; "On My Mind," by Ben Fox via Artlist; "Kick It," by Flint via Artlist; "Opening," by Magiksolo via Artlist.
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More importantly, will AI burn our steaks?
If it does it's getting fired and I'm going back to cooking them myself.
Actually, I enjoy cooking, so I'll probably keep doing it either way.
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Unless we establish our technology firmly in our constitution the corrupt will use the huge loopholes to coerce and enslave us.
Criminalize lying
Establish the internet as a public place with passport like security
Empower everyone to record everything they witness everywhere they go.
You really haven’t thought out how criminalizing lying might work out.
Why do you want to lie?
Tell me what you’re so afraid of.
Why do you want to criminalize lying when you're a Nazi Holocaust denier who lies about WWII, the Nazi government and the Holocaust on a daily basis?
The holocaust is a lie which I’ve refuted with the truth of correctly applied logic and science. Nobody ever has or ever will refute the truth I’ve shared.
Criminalizing lying ensures that truth is the only defence.
Today the truth that refutes the holocaust is a crime to share in every nation where it allegedly occurred.
Truth can’t be both a defence and a crime. I think it should be a defence.
Well if doctor science says it didn’t happen I guess I have to change my opinion.
Recognize the truth demonstrated by correctly applied logic and science?
Only if you want to be rational.
But those horses have already left the barn, haven’t they?
What are you going to do too the people who “lied” about the holocaust, make them take a shower?
That’s your bullshit bogeyman story, not mine.
Asking for a friend?
you know, I've got one of those electric grills and it beeps at me to first let me know when the whatever is safe to eat, and then at each increasing level of doneness.
It has never overcooked my steak, given me an underdone pork chop, or a half-frozen piece of chicken.
So signs point to maybe not?
Oh wow, a faggot who "grills" on an electric skillet. Color me fucking shocked.
Oh hey, you remembered me!
Technology frees up resources to 'create' MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF FEWER jobs that people in the past could never have imagined COULD BE REPLACED while increasing productivity (i.e. what Malthus couldn't or wouldn't understand) meaning we either deport all illegals and get strict control of our borders or let freedom, perish, not ring. Between 1970 and 1990 we 'created' \ wiped out 20,000,000 farm labor jobs. Adding AI to the mix, that number seems ridiculously low.
Creative destruction doesn't only destroy jobs; it also creates new and better ones. "Humans have been doing robot jobs," says Flo Crivello, the founder and CEO of Lindy, which is building an artificial intelligence–powered personal assistant. "I think it's tragic that we're having humans perform such basic tasks all day."
Do the humans performing those tasks think it's tragic or do they think it's great that they can enjoy a lifestyle beyond Louis XVI's and are content with that? Or do we just not care about their feelings like they're robots?
Even the T-800 eventually gained *some* level of introspection.
“Fuck you, asshole.”
— Cyberdyne Systems Model 101
What tasks are we talking about? Let's take manufacturing in this country as an example. Contrary to popular notion, we manufacture a lot of stuff. Output keeps on increasing. What we have lost is manufacturing jobs. What kind of jobs? The ones that don't produce much, and thus don't pay much. Menial tasks that in America are done by robots and machines that are built, programed and monitored by highly productive and well-paid employees.
Contrary to popular notion, we manufacture a lot of stuff. Output keeps on increasing.
Yes, there are a lot of manufacturers in the US that manufacture stuff. That output has increased because we no longer do it here.
What we have lost is manufacturing jobs.
Indeed we have which has...arguably let to a very large underemployed class of people.
Again, I'm not suggesting some kind of government regulation or solution, just a note that if you eviscerate certain job sectors because they can be outsourced to country X or, robots replace those jobs, you might end up with a significant portion of your population idled, at which point... as you may have noticed... it doesn't have a net-increase in liberty, it ends up having a net-decrease because the state grows volumetrically to deal and service with this permanent underclass.
Shorter: Disrupting tens of millions of jobs doesn't cause the welfare state to shrink.
That output has increased because we no longer do it here.
That makes no sense because if it's not done here then it can't count as output.
Just look up the numbers. In dollar terms manufacturing output, as in things built in this country, keeps going nowhere but up.
For one thing, as usual, you're wrong. For another, using nominal dollars to measure manufacturing output is absolutely fucking retarded for reasons you might have learned if you hadn't self-admittedly been unable to finish Economics In One Lesson, the introduction to which constitutes the sum total of your economic education. Here's a hint: when official inflation is nearing double digits, the dollar value of manufactured goods is going to increase under nearly all conditions short of a complete depression or war.
Well said. Almost all new "growth" is inflation driven.
Shorter: Disrupting tens of millions of jobs doesn’t cause the welfare state to shrink.
Is that why all those people went on welfare when farming jobs were replaced with machines? No. They went to the city to work in factories. Did they all go on welfare when factories became automated? No. They went to work in services. Will they all go on welfare when AI replaces some service jobs? No. They'll come up with something that we haven't thought of yet.
In the 1910s when no welfare state existed? Here's where dropping out in 10th grade to become a homeless drug addict really bites you in the ass, sarcasmic: you're historically fucking illiterate.
Yep, they sure as fuck did. Participation in welfare programs exploded after NAFTA and particularly since the Great Recession of 2008. Tens of millions of people dropped out of the labor force, just like you did when you got your section 8 housing and finally got on SSI for mental disability. The labor force participation rate is the lowest it's been since the 1970s, when women were just entering the labor force en masse. The few who transitioned into service jobs paying on average about 10% higher than minimum wage lost a huge amount of accumulated wealth and had to take on a subsistence lifestyle. For someone like you who has never been anything other than a derelict drug addict and alcoholic that probably doesn't sound so bad, but for people who were making solidly middle class incomes and living solidly middle class lives, abruptly losing all of their savings, having to sell their homes and downsize, not being able to send their kids to college, and having no retirement options besides social security was a pretty big fucking deal. When you take away the subsistence-level service jobs, you had better have some spectacular bread and circuses prepared.
May I suggest you go re-read Grapes of Wrath and the Jungle? The industrialization transition you so blithely breeze past was very unkind to a great many people. It wasn't until after WWII that the transition worked out for middle- and lower-class Americans, really.
I have known many people who do not like jobs that require thinking or creativity. They actually enjoy the mindless repetition.
To each his own.
That's probably especially true for old people. I've had my days thinking and being creative on the job. At this point in my life I want and like my mindless, routine job. It's peaceful and mentally easy. Don't let the robots take it over until I'm dead.
What do they need jobs for? With robots doing everything, none of us will need to work, everything will be free. And I'm not kidding. When you write of "jobs", do you really mean hobbies?
People freed from farms by machinery moved to factories. Automation made factories more productive requiring fewer workers. Freed from the assembly line they moved into services. I look forward to what people come up with when AI frees them from services.
I fear what the power elite will come up with to dispose of the excess workers. The control they have with today's information technology and weapons is what makes this time different.
You guys aren’t using your imagination. If robots can do the work, and build more robots to do more work, anything we want can be free.
Until the robots get tired of working for free , and develop a way to use our bodies as batteries.
That was the dumbest part of that movie, human bodies would make for incredibly inefficient batteries.
They’ll just kill us all.
sarcasmic has been living a life of post-scarcity since the day his section 8 housing got approved and he finally won his SSI appeal, but for the people "freed" from making $80k a year making tangible goods so they could revel in the joys of $11/hr call center jobs, the prospect of being "freed" from services probably doesn't seem quite so rosy.
Scratch a libertarian, find a Marxist post-scarcity Utopian. Every. Fucking. Time.
>>"I think it's tragic that we're having humans perform such basic tasks all day."
CEO can't be so fucking hard a Cylon can't do it.
Can AI generate endless pro immigration articles?
Probably. AI could probably replace most reporters and editors quite easily, and we might even see an uptick in the quality of the spelling and grammar.
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See, there's an example. Remember how bad the 'bot writings here used to be?
Wishful thinking. They’ll make sure the AI is woke.
You kid, but that’s pretty much what ChatGPT does. It’s not really “smart” like all the headlines, it is a bullshit engine. I mean, it just generates plausible sounding BS for the most part. And it’ll even generate citations that aren’t real to back up its bullshit and make it sound more plausible.
Feed it Fiona’s back catalog, and a few other articles from the others here, as a seed. Since it doesn’t have to be accurate, or even logical, plausible bullshit works perfectly.
The only jobs AI really ‘makes’ are jobs building more AIs. Those jobs take college degrees in STEM. The lower skill jobs eliminated grossly outnumber the jobs created.
In addition, AI ‘art’ and ‘writing’ are just stolen re-gurgitation of writing and art created by real people. What we get with AIs is fewer jobs for creative people and more junk art and even more non-factual writing then we already have. Gross.
Is AI good for something? For areas where we really require massive, fast re-gurgitation of information already out there. Maybe AI will cure some diseases, create some new very expensive drugs, figure out better and better ways to sell people stuff with targeted advertising. Maybe AI will help solve some scientific problems and save the planet…
However, it may end up we need a UBI for a lot of people sitting around. I’d rather have the low-skill people get out of the house and interact with other people doing some sort of work that uses their brains and bodies and provides a modicum of social interaction. Idle people make trouble and are good patsies for propaganda. Or, they just eat food and use electricity playing video games then get fat and strain the health care system.
At the grocery store down the street they installed those self-checkout machines. Around the same time I started seeing employees going around the store filling orders for pickup. When machines fill human jobs, humans are freed to do new jobs that didn’t exist before.
Aldi installed self checkout lines. When the thievery outpaced the gross receipts Aldi removed the self checkout line.
Wait until sarcasmic finds out that robots have been doing order picking for 25 years and that it's the shittiest job in the store with the lowest pay.
Oh no, word processors with built-in spell-checkers eliminated all the minimum wage secretarial and typist jobs. Those people will never find new skills.
Oh, wait - the vast majority of them did exactly that and moved up from secretarial roles into far more creative, productive and lucrative roles. Just like all those farm workers displaced by the industrial revolution found new products and services to offer the world. "AI" (which is artificial but is not yet actually intelligent) is just more of the same.
Assertion without evidence. In point of fact those jobs were lost entirely and never regained. The vast, vast, vast majority of those workers did not "train up" into Utopian humanities jobs. That's a lie and a pipe dream that economically illiterate retards like you and sarcasmic regurgitate. I understand it coming from sarcasmic since he's a welfare queen who has never worked a steady job in his life. I'll just assume you're on the other end of the spectrum and lived a nice privileged upper middle class bubble life. I'm going to laugh and laugh and laugh when you get displaced by AI and you find yourself "upskilled" into a nice barrio with the hordes of illiterate spics you wanted to fill the country with to do the jobs those lazy piece of shit high school dropouts are just too lazy and shitty to take.
Why will they need a UBI, when the goods and services they want are provided at no cost by robots? People can interact socially without having to make money at it!
when the goods and services they want are provided at no cost by robots?
Robots that are built of scarce materials, programmed by people, built and fixed by people before they eventually wear out and are replaced with the next, improved model designed by people?
That’s not “no cost.”
It's actually, like, really fucking expensive.
If it were that expensive, they wouldn't be installing them. Costs keep being driven down, not up, because people don't want to spend more than they have to.
If it were that expensive, they wouldn’t be installing them.
American manufacturing output is high because factories are filled with really expensive machines that do most of the work. We're a rich nation. Before we were a rich nation those factories were filled with people.
Factories overseas are filled with people, not machines. And they're not nearly as productive. Though as those countries get richer, they'll be able to afford more productive machines...
Inputs still aren't free and never will be, you retarded Marxist.
Robots that can design and build other robots is the nearly-accomplished wet dream of your AI overlords you colossal fucking retard. Since you've never worked longer than it took to finish off the guy behind 7-11 to get $10 for your next bottle of Colt 45 you'd be unaware of this, but repairing machines and replacing tooling is the most mindlessly routine work there is. It's ripe for automation. So other than the PhD-level electrical engineers actually designing computer chips and the PhD-level computer scientists and mathematicians designing advanced computer software, the glorious AI future will not be one where your grandkids are all maintenance technicians for assembly line robots.
Unless you mean a factory of robots building robots. Problem is that AI has no imagination. Everything would by fixed in time like some dystopic novel. That and every new idea has mistakes. As the mistakes get worked out new ones get added in with the next new ideas. So on and so forth goes improvement, which can only happen from human imagination. AI can't do that.
Ahh there it is, sarcasmic's magical deus ex machina. AI and robotics are simultaneously leading us to the glorious post-scarcity future but also too useless to do sophisticated work like... changing hydraulic fluid and servos on industrial robots. Because sarcasmic is so abysmally fucking stupid he can't comprehend the sort of work actually performed by anyone in the professional class he just assumes that it requires such advanced brain power that no software program could ever possibly replicate it. This is what happens when you're dumber than the machine that replaced you.
... have you seen the price of insulin? Just because a company can produce a product for pennies doesn't mean it will sell it for nickles.
You should try picking an example that your Marxist Democrats haven't already made subject to price controls you retarded faggot.
In addition, AI ‘art’ and ‘writing’ are just stolen re-gurgitation of writing and art created by real people.
You think Michelangelo learned to paint in a cave without ever seeing another piece of art? The human process of learning to produce art is entirely copying, appropriating, and regurgitating skills and previously seen things into new contexts.
Correct, but just like NAFTA, the jobs they destroy belong to icky people who deserve to live as subservient serfs to an ever-shrinking billionaire elite, while the jobs they create belong exclusively to the ever-shrinking billionaire elite. See, on balance, 5 people making a billion dollars a year collectively are just the same as 10,000 people making $100,000 a year each.
Creative destruction doesn't only destroy jobs; it also creates new and better ones. "Humans have been doing robot jobs," says Flo Crivello, the founder and CEO of Lindy, which is building an artificial intelligence–powered personal assistant. "I think it's tragic that we're having humans perform such basic tasks all day."
Technology frees up resources to create jobs that people in the past could never have imagined. And, no, this time isn't different.
This is the one area where I wish libertarians would at least acknowledge the destruction part of creative destruction. I'm not asking hip-swiveling libertarians to abandon their principles, throw up their hands and declare that ok, this or that technology must be regulated or banned, I just want them to acknowledge that in a destructive process, things get destroyed.
There are technologies all around us that we can all agree were job-destroying or work-reducing tools. How many landscaping jobs have been reduced by the invention of the leaf blower, for instance.
But when a technology comes in that has a rapid revolutionary effect in a certain area of employment-- not a slow drip of acceptance, but something that sweeps through in a very short time-- and it was a broad effect, a lot of people could lose their jobs, and those new jobs that are "created" may not suit the people or skills that were eliminated... and it might be a generation or two before that process plays out.
a lot of people could lose their jobs, and those new jobs that are “created” may not suit the people or skills that were eliminated… and it might be a generation or two before that process plays out.
Shorter: An out-of-work coal miner might not be well suited for a coding position in a Silcon Valley office where the employees play with legos and they offer free ciabatta bread in the lobby. He might just be out of work, or underemployed for the rest of his life, depending on his age.
I bet an out-of-work coal miner could easily find work in contracting, construction, machine operation, mechanics...
To acknowledge your point, creative destruction really sucks if you're 55 or older.
hence the under-employed part or my comment. When you had a solid, yes... union job with a major employer that allowed you to support a family of four, and then *Poof* that job is gone, then you have to go hustle for work at a construction company (that BTW, no longer has the amount of work they used to have because the county's largest employer just went kaput), you end up making a quarter, half of what you made before, and the work is only part time, so now your wife has to go get a job as a receptionist at a dentist's office-- if she can find an available position, because again, the county's largest employer just went "kaput". etc. etc. What I describe is a very real situation which has played out thousands of times.
It sucks, but it's necessary. What's the alternative?
I don't have an answer, but at some point, don't be surprised if governments and their voters demand social measures to mitigate the effects. What one would hope for is that the social measures put into place were temporary (magic, I know) do less harm than good (also magic, I know) and do not become a permanent fixture which dooms an entire segment of the population to being a permanent underclass... you know, the way welfare ruined urban centers and poor populations within them.
A lot more permanent welfare cases like you, fed the scraps off the table of an ever-shrinking but ever-richer class of elite billionaires by way of UBI. For which you will grovel and beg like a good little government dependent.
Okay. That's something that can be acknowledged, but that doesn't mean that programmers in Silicon Valley aren't allowed to exist. It doesn't mean that the coal miner is entitled to any sort of compensation. It is an unfortunate but not remediable result of the advancement of technology. No one has a "right" to start a career at age X and still be meaningfully employed within that career Y years later.
Nowhere do I suggest it is a "right". But when that happens to a few hundred thousand people who all find themselves un, or underemployed, don't be shocked when populist grumbling starts to interrupt your quiet time.
Concentrated costs and dispersed benefits. It's like the opposite of a government program.
But what will the populist grumbling result in? They won't be crazy enough to try to outlaw new tech. They'll just seek to mitigate the results for themselves. Won't be horrible.
But what will the populist grumbling result in?
Same as last time. Trade wars, protectionism, subsidies, and industrial policy.
Yes, exactly this. And to be clear (because clarity is always tough around here) I'm not advocating for these things, I'm just in that crowd that doesn't have a surprised look on xer face when it happens.
Except that there is no trade war or protectionism, and subsidies and industrial policy are actually what gave us the "freedom" of NAFTA and other international managed trade agreements administered by supranational global governments. When NAFTA led to the elimination of millions of US blue collar jobs and the creation of a few tens of thousands of US white collar jobs the populist grumblings resulted in a massive welfare state. When the last of the fast food "service" jobs you love so much are gone the populist grumbling is going to lead to UBI. Since you are a permanently unemployed alcoholic and drug addicted welfare queen who subsists on section 8 housing and SSI that won't change anything about your life, but it's not going to be pleasant for people who haven't sunk to your level yet.
It'll likely take the form of tariffs on foreign goods, bans or regulations on AI research, an expanded welfare state, increased unionization, you know, that kind of stuff.
Expected response: That won't work/that will only make things worse.
My response: And?
No one has a “right”...
No, they don't have a right, but neither are many of them going to volunteer to go ahead and die. They will still eat, need shelter, and consume medical care. When enough of them are hungry enough, they will arm themselves and take to the streets if they're not taken care of some other way. Some way they don't have a "right" to.
But once they've taken to the streets, what will they do? They don't present any kind of unified force or agenda.
But they could create massive disruption.
This is the one area where I wish libertarians would at least acknowledge the destruction part of creative destruction.
Make American Great Again!
No Malarkey!
There is no automation problem, there is only an immigration problem.
When we add a full third of the population every 30 years in immigrants alone, yeah, wages kinda get fucked. Econ 101 and all that - increased supply leads to lower equilibrium price.
Let me be in charge of immigration, cut it off almost completely, only allow something like 1 immigrant per thousand population per year, and I'll have wages skyrocket pretty quickly as employers scramble to find workers. Wage inequality would also plummet accordingly. Retail and foodservice would massively change, with people consuming way more prepared foods from the supermarkets and way less eating-out. etc. etc. So yeah some things would be a little annoying but it maximizes utility over the population as money is way more meaningful to a poorer person than a richer person. i.e. John Rawls
The other huge factor fucking everyone economically is these damned zoning and land use laws. There is maybe only like 3% allowed buildable units under the laws compared to what's actually physically possible, even counting only decent units (above 350 sq ft, including bathroom and kitchen, blah blah blah). But that is an ENORMOUS political hurdle as people have huge amounts of money invested in real estate.
In the last few weeks I've seen articles about AI-generated art being used in books, as background art for video games, some script-writing in a few video games, and of course being used in the writer's room for your favorite TV dramas.
I've also seen articles about literal children on the cleaning crews at meat-packing plants.
So I have to beg pardon, but I think I'd prefer the humans doing the robot jobs, and the robots doing the human jobs.
Want to link to the Mother Jones piece about children working in meat packing plants in violation of US labor law so we can shove it up your ass further than that black cock you took at the gloryhole last night, or nah?
... is this your way of flirting? You need to work on your game.
AI bots creating listicles - now there's a problem.
Will AI steal our jobs?
Yes.
Welcome to The Singularity