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Jake Tapper on The Hellfire Club, Donald Trump's Big Lies, and D.C.'s 'Bullshit Waterfall'

The CNN host and best-selling novelist comes clean about his politics, why Hillary Clinton lost, and how his training in alternative media gives him a leg up.

Amazon.comAmazon.com"I think that when you are in that chair, or standing there with a microphone, you are not there for yourself," says CNN anchor Jake Tapper, whose new novel, The Hellfire Club, is a dark thriller set in 1950s Washington. "You're there for the people at home and you should be asking the questions and conducting yourself in a way trying to think about what they would want you to do. 'Well, you didn't really answer that question, or isn't it true that something'—we're there to challenge that. At a time when there is just this waterfall cascading over us of bullshit, it's important for us to put up an umbrella, try to provide a safe space for viewers to know we're trying to not have any bullshit here."

Already at the top of best-seller lists, The Hellfire Club follows the adventures of a novice congressman who stumbles into a sex-and-power conspiracy during the McCarthy era. The loudmouthed senator from Wisconsin is a character, as are John and Robert Kennedy, McCarthy aide and future Donald Trump mentor Roy Cohn, anti-comic-book activist Fredric Wertham, and others. Casually rich in historical reference and knowledge, Tapper delights in reminding people of strange, forgotten alliances (McCarthy employed Robert Kennedy and the senator was godfather to his child).

"McCarthyism and Trumpism are very different," says the 49-year-old Philadelphia native. "They stand for very different things, but the technique of the big lie, smearing and telling lies, you know McCarthy was doing that. At the time, the media, Democrats, and Republicans were all paralyzed—not all, but most of them were paralyzed. They didn't know how to deal with this. 'Oh my God, am I biased if I call him a liar? Oh my God, is he going to attack me if I call him a liar?' Yet we see the same mistakes being made today."

In a wide-ranging interview with Reason's Nick Gillespie, Tapper talks about how his roots in alternative media such as the Washington City Paper, Salon, and the pioneering satire site Suck give him an advantage over journalists trained more conventionally in mainstream media. "I was a crime and police reporter for City Paper and [my editor, the late David Carr,] was always on my case for not being sufficiently skeptical of police. He thought I was too pro-police. He never came out and said it, but I knew that he thought that," says Tapper. "That was good, that back and forth that I had with him, and while I think it's important to support police when they need help and they're doing the right thing, I also...recognize that there are times that the police need to be questioned. That's an important part of my job. Same thing with decision makers in the military, less so individual soldiers on the ground. I think being willing to challenge American institutions while also being respectful of the people who are the beat cop or the private."

Once registered as a Democrat, Tapper says that he now doesn't feel at home in any party. "Do I have a politics?" he says. "I do think that a certain degree of compassion is important, but I don't know that big government is always [the answer]. That's another kind of conventional-wisdom kind of way of looking at problems in Washington. Whether it's Bush, or Obama, or frankly Trump, which is more government, better, and here we have a problem, more government instead of taking the government we have now and reorganizing it, changing it so as to focus on the new problems of 2018. I see that too. That's something that I've learned from reading a lot of Reason. I just like having that challenged in my head."

Making a distinction between viewpoint journalism and the sort of discussion and analysis he offers at CNN, Tapper stresses that while being objective is "aspirational," knowing and fairly representing different perspectives is essential to 21st-century media literacy. "Whenever journalism students ask me what they should be doing," he says, I say that 'if you're on social media, you should be following a ton of people that you don't necessarily agree with just to get their perspectives.' I always mention you. I always mention Reason. I always mention Jonah Goldberg and people on the right. I always mention Josh Marshall and people on the left. I think it's important to have as diverse of a feed as possible. I'm not even mentioning...women on the left and right as well, and getting as many people of color, people from different countries, et cetera—having as much ideological diversity as possible so that you're getting those inputs and having that influence how you cover stories, and having people like that on your panels, too."

As a special treat for Reason readers, Tapper also explains how Senior Editor Jacob Sullum gave him his start in journalism.

Edited by Ian Keyser. Intro by Austin Bragg. Cameras by Todd Krainin and Mark McDaniel.

'Deadly Roulette' by Kevin MacLeod is licensed under CC BY 3.0

Photo credits:

Eisenhower: AKG Images / Newscom

Kennedy: CNP / AdMedia / SIPA / Newscom

McCarthy: Everett Collection / Newscom

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  • Pro Libertate||

    I'm not much of a Trump fan, though I don't think he's hell-spawned, either, but this idea that Trump is unusually dishonest is a bit much. Compared to who in politics?

  • John||

    Notice, they never actually say what all of these Trump lies are. It is just assumed. Both Gillespie and Tapper live in the same fog of bullshit.

  • Brandybuck||

    Here's just one to get you started: "... and Mexico will pay for it!"

  • John||

    That is not a lie. That is a proposal. It is entirely possible for it to happen. All Congress has to do is tax remittances. That is no more a lie than any other campaign promise.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    You're making a big assumption that Mexico will never pay for a border wall. Involuntarily that is.

  • ||

    If there's a wall and Mexico didn't pay for it, then it becomes a broken promise.

    But in the era of Trump it's a 'lie' even though broken promises IS a raison d'être among the political classes.

  • Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland||

    The Washington Post has published a detailed inventory of the lies, you half-educated bigot.

  • Fancylad||

    The Democratic Party's house organ has published a detailed inventory of the "lies"? That's gotta be impartial and honest.

  • ||

    lol.

  • Citizen X - #6||

    That depends on what the definition of "is" is.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    The Dotard is setting records for lies at an exponential clip.

    Donald Trump Has Managed To Tell 3,001 Lies As President. Here Are Five Of His Best

    https://goo.gl/3wAFXu

  • John||

    You link to Esquire. You might be the dumbest human being on earth. But you are funny sometimes. I will give you that.

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    The Washington Post lists the 3000 lies.

    But I know FAKE NEWS!! BEZOS!!!!! BENGHAZI!!!! BLOOP!!! DERP!!!

  • Mr Smeeth||

    "We've got to keep our country safe. You look at what's happening in Germany, you look what's happening last night in Sweden. Sweden! Who would believe this?" - 18 February 2017"

    So, what exactly is he lying about there? It's listed as one of his "big" lies, but he doesn't actually claim anything there.

    If that's one of their big ones like they claim, the other 3000 have to be pretty thin gruel.

  • JesseAz||

    Wapo even counts lies of trump denying articles of wapo anonymous sources. They prove trump is lying by citing... Wapo anonymous sources. It is fucking laughable.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    WaPo? They tell more lies in one edition than Trump is alleged to have told this far into his presidency.

    They again Shreek.

  • JonBlack||

    If you want to get a good sense for why Trump is President, go read that link and take a good look at just how myopic his opposition is (and was.)

    I can't make myself like Trump- despite how much fun he can be- but I can't help loving how good he is at exposing how moronic the Democratic party has become.

  • mtrueman||

    "but I can't help loving how good he is at exposing how moronic the Democratic party has become."

    He's proved being moronic is no impediment to getting elected. What you love today, you'll hate tomorrow.

  • damikesc||

    Should be a Proggie bumper sticker by now.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Butt cannot even set a link up so we can see what it links to.

    No thanks.

  • JesseAz||

    Did you bother reading the list? A good chunk is his denials from anonymous sources. Hard to rate that true or false when those sources aren't named. Then they rate Trump's hyperbole as lies. The only person dumber than the record keeper of the lies is the idiot who posts that count as fact.

  • ||

    You people are truly retarded. All my life we were told this is how politicians are but somehow Trump is worse. And we have proof! Based on whatever methodology!

    Idiots.

    All of you who buy into this.

  • TommyInIdaho||

    "They take a bowling ball from 20 feet up in the air and they drop it on the hood of the car. And if the hood dents, then the car doesn't qualify... It's horrible, the way we're treated" - 14 March 2018

    This is apparently how Japanese firms use industry standard tests to block American companies from selling cars in their country and protect trade. Politifact reckon Trump has somehow misconstrued the pedestrian head protection performance test, which measures how much force a person's head would absorb in a collision - so, basically, the exact opposite of smashing the bonnet of a car up. You'll be surprised to learn the test also features precisely zero bowling balls.

    Misconstrued or just plain wrong isn't a lie. Esquire contradicts its click-bait headline...

  • MoreFreedom||

    That list alleged Trump lies at Esquire is really insignificant, inconsequential, and stretching the truth. Especially say compared to "You can keep your plan and doctor", or "I had no confidential information on my email server".

    Who really cares about Trump's inaugural crowd size (which he mostly observed from his car)? There is a lot of immigrant crime in Sweden. Japan does have special requirements for products sold there (I know from being involved in manufacturing products - we had to do special things to the products to sell them there). If Trump is bragging about "We have signed more legislation than anybody" what difference does it make, or how does it compared to the NYT's claim they "print all the news that's fit to print"? And frankly I agree with Trump regarding Russian meddling in the election. Insignificant trolling (spending $2 million out of over $2 billion spent on the presidential election) doesn't qualify. And I read a bunch of the Facebook ads, and after about 30, I found one that was arguable pro-Trump, while the rest were pro-Hillary.

    If the MSM (Tapper included) can't be consistent depending upon who's in office, in my opinion they are a propaganda outlet with journolists looking to get hired by politicians. At least Reason is more balanced.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    You can tell this article is bullshit for the way !McCarthy is described as telling 'big lies'. Most of McCarthy's statements that the left calls 'lies' have been proven true. The guy had faults, including being a severely alcoholic demagogue, but history has proven him correct.

  • ||

    The Venona papers, among many things such as Major Jordan's testimony all but exonerate him.

  • ||

    He wasn't as nuts as pop perception thinks.

    Solzhenitsyn explained very well how naive and stupid Western elites were regarding communists.

  • ||

    'You can keep your doctor'.

    Has he risen to that standard?

  • BYODB||


    "I do think that a certain degree of compassion is important, but I don't know that big government is always [the answer]. That's another kind of conventional-wisdom kind of way of looking at problems in Washington. Whether it's Bush, or Obama, or frankly Trump, which is more government, better, and here we have a problem, more government instead of taking the government we have now and reorganizing it, changing it so as to focus on the new problems of 2018. I see that too. That's something that I've learned from reading a lot of Reason. I just like having that challenged in my head."


    Serious question, was Tapper drunk or is this just what he sounds like when he isn't reading a teleprompter?

  • JoeBlow123||

    I think he is just playing to the audience. If he was on HuffPost he would probably talk about how evil and dangerous Trump is to our democracy.

    I have seen other individuals do he same thing on this site that have something they are trying to sell.

  • MoreFreedom||

    I agree Tapper was playing to the audience.

    In my opinion, any truth loving journalist, wouldn't work for CNN. They've been caught too many times cheating the truth. E.G., if they cared about the truth, they'd reveal their anonymous sources who've told them lies. And second, why haven't the written the story regarding how Clinton got a debate question? All they did was fire Donna Brazille for it, but we don't know how she got it, who else was involved, and what steps CNN took (likely none IMHO) to assure it doesn't happen again. Only CNN could write it. It would get lots of readers, increasing ad revenue. And it would help clear their name (except unless they were very lax about it or actually facilitated the cheating). That they don't tells you we should assume they facilitated the cheating, and it was probably worse than we think.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    but I don't know that big government is always [the answer].

    I'll take teeny tiny baby steps at this point.

  • John||

    Big government is not the answer if it protects people Tapper doesn't like or in anyway causes him harm or inconvience.

  • Pro Libertate||

    I have an idea. Let's move forward towards limited government.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Well, if one decides that Big Government isn't always the answer, then that's a pretty big retreat from Big Government for a media talking head. That's like a 10,000% decrease in the amount of government you normally think is the answer.

  • John||

    Not really.

  • Pro Libertate||

    I was thinking that we always tend to look back to the Constitution or the Founders. Not that we should stop doing that, but perhaps we should even more emphasize why--morally, ethically, practically--it makes sense.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    I think your raise a great point to reach those FEELZ people.

    Someone has got to explain the constitution and the discussions behind its creation because the media sure is not going to do it. The media avoids the Constitution like the plague and yet the press is specifically mentioned in it.

  • JesseAz||

    No they aren't. Freedom of the press was not intended to cover a corporate press, but the technology of the printing press as a means to amplify ones voice. Professor volokh has some good articles about it. There were very few corporate presses at the founding. They believed in individual expression. Franklin even had his own press.

  • MoreFreedom||

    What makes you think Tapper isn't lying? Given CNN's long list of fake news, I wouldn't put it past him.

    dailycaller.com /2017/12/08/ 7-times-cnn-botched-the-news-in-2017 (spaces inserted in link)

  • mtrueman||

    "I'll take teeny tiny baby steps at this point."

    You can do better than that. You wanna small government? Move to a small country.

  • Texasmotiv||

    Like Denmark?

  • Elias Fakaname||

    More like Vatican City at under 4 square miles of geopgrpahic territory.

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Poor Tapper, in the middle of hawking his own book hit with a YA novel reference from Gillespie.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Not sure I'd crowbar Salon into the "alternative media" column.

  • John||

    Salon does live in an alternate reality. So there is that.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    I dunno, they seem to exist in a very mainstream and doctrinaire reality when it comes to media organizations.

  • John||

    That is an alternate universe.

  • Texasmotiv||

    They are the MSM after the mask slipped off.

  • Fancylad||

    Salon???
    They make Mother Jones sound like the John Birch Society.

  • Brandybuck||

    Once upon a time, in a galazy far far away, they were alternative. But now days they just fade into that same mauve wallpaper every other lefty outlet has.

  • John||

    Speaking of lying, Nick might want to worry about his own staff lying. In a story this morning about a conservative student who was reprimanded for complaining about liberals' behavior, Robby quoted the student as saying,

    "I've heard horror stories from other conservatives on this campus about the brutal mental and emotional attacks on them. I've had them myself. It sickens me to death that the people that preach tolerance and acceptance of all people are so openly against us and our beliefs." (Emphasis mine.)

    If you go to the campus reform link in Robby's story, you find her actual statement was,

    I've heard many stories from others like me who were attacked for their beliefs," she wrote. "People had their personal property destroyed, their own lives threatened, and administration has done nothing because [we're] 'Trump lovers.'

    Robby takes the part about the threats and the property damage out without even putting in an ellipsis and makes it sound like she is just talking about mental and emotional attacks. Isn't that the kind of thing that gets you kicked out of journalism school? Hell, that is damn near defamation even by the public figure standard. How is that not willful disregard or actual malice?

  • Palin's Buttplug||

    Conservatism is a shit political philosophy, John.

    Quit defending it. You look like that gasbag idiot Hannity.

    (Progressives are just as bad)

  • Shirley Knott||

    Right. A legitimate complaint about the quality, or lack thereof, of journalism on display is a defense of conservatism.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Notice how Butt completely ignores your claim that the person was misquoted and instead attacks conservatism?

  • RockLibertyWarrior||

    @Palin's Buttplug your a dumb asshole who posts links and quotes to sites that lie. Go fuck yourself, asshole. I will gladly piss on your grave.

  • Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland||

    Your liberal-libertarian betters have been shoving progress down the half-educated, bigoted throats of conservatives like you throughout my lifetime and yours, RockLibertyWarrior.

    Now be nice, you ignorant, disaffected, intolerant goober, or we may disregard our manners and start shoving that progress down sideways.

    Carry on, clingers.

  • Fancylad||

    Have you ever noticed that most guys like Kirkland who throw around words like "bigot" and "intolerant", invariably are exposed as wife beaters, or immediately call a minority a "ni**er" when they wander off their political reservation.
    Hypocrites.

  • ||

    Always projection with the progressive left.

    Always.

  • ||

    Kirkland's brain only operates in ad-hominem, anything else would be half civilized.

    Carry on, troglodyte.

  • gormadoc||

    It's not possible that she's given two different statements? The only conclusion is that Robby lied?

  • John||

    The quotes speak for themselves. Go to the link in Robby's story and it is obvious that he changed the quote. There are not two quotes.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Some media types get lazy when they are trying to go all lefty on their supposedly Libertarian themed publication.

  • gormadoc||

    Some commentators get lazy when they're trying to blame Robby, because why not?

  • gormadoc||

    You aren't trying very hard. Open the link, copy-paste Robby's quote into "find," and look at the result. It's the 6th paragraph. It's just two paragraphs above the statement you quoted.

    My god, at least make the bare minimum effort rather than skim an article looking to complain about Robby back at Reason.

  • John||

    My God the quote is what it is. What Robby quoted isn't what she said.

  • gormadoc||

    It is. Just search for it in the article. She said more than just the paragraph you selectively quoted.

  • damikesc||

    It is. Just search for it in the article. She said more than just the paragraph you selectively quoted.

    This is the 6th paragraph you cited.

    So liberal students were offended by a conservative student. The conservative student was offended they were offended, and said so. This offended them all over again. Thus the cycle of "brutal mental and emotional attacks" continues. No one learns anything—especially not to act like an adult.

    No, her comments WEREN'T there. She said more than was quoted? No shit, REALLY? She said more than a sentence or two at an open mic?

    The POINT I think John was making was that Robby sought to minimize, as much as humanly possible, what she was saying to pull the whole "Well, BOTH groups are bad" --- except he ignored, even with his specious editing, SHE DID NOT INVOLVE AUTHORITIES TO PUNISH THE PROGS WHILE THEY DID EXACTLY THAT TO HER.

    It's not the same thing. Nor is it terribly comparable.

  • damikesc||

    It is. Just search for it in the article. She said more than just the paragraph you selectively quoted.

    This is the 6th paragraph you cited.

    So liberal students were offended by a conservative student. The conservative student was offended they were offended, and said so. This offended them all over again. Thus the cycle of "brutal mental and emotional attacks" continues. No one learns anything—especially not to act like an adult.

    No, her comments WEREN'T there. She said more than was quoted? No shit, REALLY? She said more than a sentence or two at an open mic?

    The POINT I think John was making was that Robby sought to minimize, as much as humanly possible, what she was saying to pull the whole "Well, BOTH groups are bad" --- except he ignored, even with his specious editing, SHE DID NOT INVOLVE AUTHORITIES TO PUNISH THE PROGS WHILE THEY DID EXACTLY THAT TO HER.

    It's not the same thing. Nor is it terribly comparable.

  • damikesc||

    It is. Just search for it in the article. She said more than just the paragraph you selectively quoted.

    This is the 6th paragraph you cited.

    So liberal students were offended by a conservative student. The conservative student was offended they were offended, and said so. This offended them all over again. Thus the cycle of "brutal mental and emotional attacks" continues. No one learns anything—especially not to act like an adult.

    No, her comments WEREN'T there. She said more than was quoted? No shit, REALLY? She said more than a sentence or two at an open mic?

    The POINT I think John was making was that Robby sought to minimize, as much as humanly possible, what she was saying to pull the whole "Well, BOTH groups are bad" --- except he ignored, even with his specious editing, SHE DID NOT INVOLVE AUTHORITIES TO PUNISH THE PROGS WHILE THEY DID EXACTLY THAT TO HER.

    It's not the same thing. Nor is it terribly comparable.

  • John||

    She was said people were threatened and had their property destroyed. What part of that do you not understand?

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    @5:42, that's an interesting discussion. I felt the press kind of came back to that relationship with the Obama administration. It seemed every journalist wanted to "hang out" with Obama-- ala Ben Bradlee and Kennedy.

  • John||

    I love how after Obama has safely left office and can't run again, all of these clowns suddenly admit that "well maybe the media was a little too easy on him". Everyone in the Washington media is a lying piece of shit. If they had any ability to be anything else, they wouldn't be in the media.

  • damikesc||

    And when anybody mentioned it during Obama, they shrieked in horror. They portray Trump's people as dishonest after Obama's people BRAGGED about lying to people and the press and boasted about how utterly stupid the media is.

  • colorblindkid||

    Tapper's alright in my book, because he's basically the only journalist on any major network that ever asked any hard questions of Obama or pushed back against any of their bullshit at press conferences. He's about the only person who has ground to stand on when criticizing Trump.

  • Nardz||

    It's illegal for you to read wikileaks

  • JesseAz||

    So you like tapper because he's an attention whore?

  • damikesc||

    He does do that...only on Twitter.

    On his TV show, no, he does not.

  • damikesc||

    He does do that...only on Twitter.

    On his TV show, no, he does not.

  • ||

    He's only has standing due to relative comparison, he wasn't the only one completely bent over to lick obama's shoes. He's like the kid at the nerd table without allergies.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    I'm no political junkie or highly-paid campaign strategist, but @1420 tapper discusses the lack of attacks by the Clinton campaign for Trump using imported Chinese steel for his buildings.

    My take is yes, normally, these would have been good things to attack Trump on during the political theater of the '16 election, but Democrats have kind of fucked themselves on that 'dirty imported stuff' issue, so it's probably a non-starter.

    Also, that would have been more Bernie Sanders' bailiwick, and we know what the DNC thought about Sanders.

    Who knows, but when your party spends a lot of time screaming about protecting "american workers" with the use of tariffs...

  • Fist of Etiquette||

    Tapper mentions Reason and Gillespie when talking about following Twitters he disagrees with.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    You noticed that too.

  • gormadoc||

    Expected it to be something related to Marvel. Was disappointed.

  • Shirley Knott||

    Tapper and Gillespie both have that effect on people. NTTAWWT

  • furnituremovingkw||

    thank

  • loveconstitution1789||

    As a special treat for Reason readers, Tapper also explains how Senior Editor Jacob Sullum gave him his start in journalism.
    Look, they all know each other. How nice.

    More crappy media personalities trying to distance themselves publicly from lefty failures they supported in the past.

    In private and at cosmo parties they still support those lefty positions.

    Tapper works at a dying network and its dying because its a lefty rag.

  • Elias Fakaname||

    I hope s Me conservative billionaires buys CNN for next to nothing, fires everyone, and hires a bunch of people like Cheryl Atkinson to do nothing but hard news and investigative journalism.

  • Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland||

    Enjoy your bigoted right-wing fever dreams, loser. It might ease the sting and disaffection caused by continuing to see your political aspirations crushed by your betters, thanks to America's liberal-libertarian alliance.

  • Fancylad||

    Media Matters really ought to ask you for their fifty cents back.

  • ||

    That much? Huh.

  • trenchermann||

    Really, really disappointed Reason gave this assclown airtime. He's the Patrick Bateman of cable news.

  • vek||

    Sooo he hasn't figured out rhat McCarthy was righr??? He clearly doesn't have enough brain cells knocking together to listen to his opinions then...

  • vek||

    Sooo he hasn't figured out rhat McCarthy was righr??? He clearly doesn't have enough brain cells knocking together to listen to his opinions then...

  • BigT||

    Gene, Joe, or Charlie?

  • Elias Fakaname||

    Joe McCarthy is an American hero. God damn the left for what they did to him.

  • BigT||

    Politico:

    " In How Democracies Die, Harvard professors Steven Levitsky and Daniel Ziblatt identify four warning signs that a leader puts democracy at risk: a weak commitment to democratic rules, denial of the legitimacy of opponents, toleration of violence, and a willingness to curb civil liberties or the media. "With the exception of Richard Nixon," they write, "no major-party presidential candidate met even one of these four criteria over the last century." On the other hand, "Donald Trump met them all."

    Um...Obama met them all as well, as did W. These guys are full of shit.

    Oh, right...Harvard.

  • RockLibertyWarrior||

    Oh great "Reason", how low can you go? This is supposed to be a fucking LIBERTARIAN web site and publication, increasingly I find "Reason" trying to hook its wagon up to the extreme leftist wagon, I am about done with "Reason" they seem to be increasingly leftist. Oh, by the way, Jack Tapper is a fake newsman.

  • Rev. Arthur L. Kirkland||

    If this site were libertarian, there would not be so many authoritarian right-wing bigots here.

    Carry on, clingers.

  • ||

    If it wasn't for the absolutist zealotry, sympathy-inducing lack of awareness, and complete disregard for human decency and honesty of Trump's opponents, I would care far less than I already do about the man.

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  • Guy Montag||

    Nick sucking up to this phony is testimony to just how far gone Reason is down the toilet.

    Hand in the leather jacket for a Brooks Brothers pinstripe, the jig is up Nick.

  • TommyInIdaho||

    Tapper reminds me of Comey, or vice-versa. They're both very fine fellows, just ask them they'll tell you so. He's part of the problem with journalism, not the solution. #faketapper

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