Ilya Somin: Should Libertarians Support the Prosecutions of Trump?

"If anything is a reprehensible act for a high official in a democracy that deserves retribution, this is a good example," says professor Ilya Somin.

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Ilya Somin: Should Libertarians Support the Prosecutions of Trump?

This is an audio version of The Reason Livestream, which takes place every Thursday at 1 p.m. Eastern on Reason's YouTube channel.

Reason's Zach Weissmueller and Liz Wolfe sat down for a live discussion about the political and social ramifications of the indictments of Donald Trump with George Mason University law professor Ilya Somin.

"Trump's attempt to overturn the 2020 election well deserves punishment from the standpoint of both retribution and deterrence," wrote Somin following the four-count indictment filed by Special Counsel Jack Smith in early August. "For the head of state in a democracy, there are few more serious crimes than using fraud to try to stay in power after losing an election."

Somin also says "some of the charges seem compelling" in the case against Trump in Fulton County, Georgia.

Critics of the indictments have pointed out the conspicuous timing of a scheduled trial date, accused Trump's prosecutors of trying to "criminalize speech," and suggested that the former president is being held to a double standard. Others worry the prosecution will inspire "ever more aggressive tit-for-tat investigations."

Sources referenced in this conversation:

"Retribution, Deterrence, and the Case for Prosecuting Trump for Conspiring to Overturn the 2020 Election," by Ilya Somin

"The Georgia Case Against Trump," by Ilya Somin

William Baude and Michael Stokes Paulsen on Trump's presidential eligibility and the 14th Amendment

"FBI resisted opening probe into Trump's role in Jan. 6 for more than a year," by Carol Leonnig and Aaron Davis

John Eastman's memo for how to challenge the 2020 election results

"Conservative Legal Luminaries Release Report Entitled 'Lost, Not Stolen: The Conservative Case that Trump Lost and Biden Won the 2020 Presidential Election,'" by Ilya Somin

"Section 3 Disqualifications for Democracy Preservation," by Ilya Somin

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Comments

[Super Scary]

God help us all if they find a new oranger, badder man to start hating. They may blow up the world just to get him.

[Mike Laursen]

So, someone who is more of a bottom-of-the-barrel amoral grifter than Trump. So, Tucker Carlson?

[JesseAz]

Not a Democrat guys. Biden showers with his daughters and sent his drug addled son to be his bag man.

And how is Tucker bad again?

[Disclaimer: Mike is a democrat.]

[SQRLSY One]

Many-many right-wing gutter-snipes PISS AND MOAN oh so loudly about how social media “censors” them… And then proceed to practice THEIR version of censorshit via Faux News etc.! If the TRUTH reduces ratings at Faux News… Fucker Carlshit etc. may NOT speak the truth! If the LIES increase ratings at Faux News… Fucker Carlshit etc. MUST speak the lies, especially about how that them thar Lizard People STOLE Donald’s erections!!! Even when Fucker Carlshit Himself does NOT believe said lies! YE conservatards with YOUR taste for lies (cravenly caved into, by Faux News) are at the ROOT of the blame! “Tell me the lies that I want to hear”, ye evil lie-seeking fuckers!

[Mother's Lament]

You shill for fascism, censorship, spying and political prosecutions you deluded authoritarian nutbag. Nothing you say counts.

[EdG]

It's not uncommon for fathers to shower with their daughters up to a certain age. That certain age for Republicans is at birth. For normal people, it's between 6 and 9 years old.

[BigT]

No man should be showering with any daughter of any age.
WTF!!

[Olivahunter]

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[SQRLSY One]

Many stinky Republicans never shower at ALL!!!

[Mother's Lament]

She was a teenager and says she would avoid taking showers until he was asleep or out of the house.

And nobody normal, D or R showers with kids. Parents will take them into the bath with them, but most kids don't like shower pressure. And it stops when they can bathe themselves properly, which is definitely younger than 9 and definitely not 13.

[MasterThief]

Mine is 4 and it's easier to get her washed up quickly in the shower especially if her long hair needs to be washed. That said, I wear a bathing suit (her head is waist high so it would be fucked up not to). Hoping she can work out how to wash her own hair soon

[Roberta]

Fucked up not to? I think it's more fucked up and embarrassing to wear a swimsuit in the shower, unless you've just come from the pool or beach. If you can't bear to have her look, get a handheld shower attachment you can use to do her hair in the tub. We had a rubber one that fit over the bathtub faucet for just such purpose that Mother used to rinse our hair; handheld showers weren't a thing then.

Many babies and very young children get in the shower fearlessly, then develop a fear of the shower when they get a bit older and have to get over it to shower again. There's also at least one adjustable wall attachment to gradually get children used to showering; it's water coming hard from above that's unpleasant/scary, so the height can be gradually adjusted in a track.

I started showering at 10 years old (stall shower), used the tub until then. My parents made the water flow very gentle at first, then slowly increased it shower by shower. Even child psychologist Lawrence Balter says that helps.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

I started showering at 8-9 years old. I had long since figured out how to adjust water pressure on my own.

But we’re getting off into the weeds here. The takeaway is that Biden serially molested his daughter in the shower. And it may not have started with her. If he did shit to Hunter too it would explain a lot. Like how he was paying strippers to peg him with a strap on. He even once sent one out to buy one just for that purpose.

[Brett Bellmore]

I can recall all the way back to kindergarten, and while at an early age I'd take baths with my sister to conserve water, I can't recall EVER bathing with my parents.

I'm sure it happened occasionally, but I must have been younger than 4 when it did.

It's just messed up how Democrats try to pretend Biden isn't a perv.

[Mike Laursen]

Does it matter at all to anyone here that there is no evidence this rumor is true?

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/ashley-biden-diary-afraid/

“We have so far been unable to find any evidence whatsoever that shows this is an actual quote from Biden's daughter.”

“That said, for good measure we skimmed through all 112 pages of the PDF file that is alleged to be a reproduction of that diary and found nothing resembling this quote.”

“Some Facebook commenters appeared to believe the passage was real, despite the fact that the post included no links or source material of any kind.”

[Disclaimer: Defending truth, not Joe Biden.]

[DesigNate]

https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/pair-plead-guilty-stealing-ashley-bidens-diary-selling/story?id=88849834

Journal is real.

https://1037thefox.iheart.com/featured/walton-and-johnson/content/2022-08-26-florida-court-case-confirms-ashley-bidens-stolen-diary-is-real/

This article has a tweet with an alleged screenshot.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

Keep in mind the FBI authenticated her diary prior to the DoJ prosecuting the people who were shopping it around.

Odd that the DoJ is prosecuting people for selling another person’s diary. Which has nothing to do with any federal laws.

[Brett Bellmore]

It's SOP for Snopes, when faced with a really inconvenient rumor, to focus on the obscure version they're sure they can disprove, and ignore all the parts that are proven.

[Finrod]

Snopes *is* an urban legend at this point.

[Mike Laursen]

I wrote a comment about Tucker Carlson, JesseAz wrote a response which I haven’t seen because he is muted, and somehow the topic is now … this.

Commentariat is weird.

[Mother's Lament]

Complaining about comments which you didn't and won't read is even weirder.

[soldiermedic76]

I have never, not once, ever showered with my daughter or my sons. What parent does this? None I've ever met.

[Roberta]

It;s a frequent topic of discussion on the 'nets. Our parents didn't bathe with us, but my sister did with her 3 YO daughter sometimes. We bathed together as children, of course. Daddy taught us how to write with dermatographia on each other's backs in the tub. When we got older we bathed serially,but sometimes Mother left the same water in the tub from my sister's bath for me to do mine.

[Fetterman's Hump]

"Normal" fathers shower with their 6,7,8 and/or 9 year old daughters?

Sounds abnormal to me.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

He gives Mike lots of sads. Mike hates purveyors of truth.

[NOYB2]

someone who is more of a bottom-of-the-barrel amoral grifter than Trump

That's easy: just about every Democrat (including Biden and Hillary), and half the GOP.

[CE]

Amoral grifter? Did someone light the Gavin signal?

[NOYB2]

Well, to be fair, in the case of Biden "amoral grifter" isn't quite strong enough. Corrupt, treasonous psychopath is more like it.

[Mike Laursen]

Newsom announced today he is not running in 2024, but he might be playing hard to get.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

You should send him a dm.

[Mother's Lament]

"Newsom announced today he is not running"

So sorry that this happened to you Mike. Thoughts and prayers.

[Libertariantranslator]

Gosh! Up till now I had successfully recoiled from letting that hideous thought invade... AUGH!

[mad.casual]

There will be no one oranger. That’s the point. Anyone in the future as, or potentially more orange will, if the party and deep state bureaucrats are feeling generous, wake up with all of their social media accounts shut down, their bank accounts frozen, and a severed horses head in their bed while they’re still a mostly-pretty-politically-obscure real estate developer. It’s all (democratic) SOCIALISTs and NeoLibCons from here on out.

Trump isn’t as bad as what is going to come after him. This was foretold.

[Ghatanathoah]

Why would "deep state bureaucrats" have any trouble with the election of a Trump-like populist? Trump did absolutely nothing to them during his entire time in office, he never even tried. All of his supporters keep talking about the need to elect him to fight corruption, wokeness, and the "deep state," but he never actually did that while in office. In fact, he probably made wokeness worse by making them think they needed to tighten the screws, while simultaneously not doing anything to weaken their power. And it wasn't like he tried to do something and was thwarted by his opponents, he just never really tried. He constantly badmouthed government bureaucrats and SJWs, but he never translated his words into substance.

Trump had no major accomplishments while in office that could not have been achieved by a normal Republican politician. His judicial appointments were a big achievement, but he basically appointed the same justices that someone like Jeb Bush or Marco Rubio would have. Operation Warp Speed was a big achievement, but again, a normal Republican, or even a Democrat, would have done the same thing.

The establishment has no reason to feel seriously threatened by the election of Trump or someone like him, because they have shown again and again that they do jack squat while in office. It wasn't until Trump became so delusional that he tried to overturn an election he lost fair and square that he became a real threat, not just to the establishment, but to Americans in general.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

They were so not threatened by him they immediately fabricated evidence against him, and impeached him twice.

Try harder you moron.

[EdG]

The House of Representatives isn't part of the "Deep State".

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

That has to be Sarcasm, right?

[BigT]

High gov officials are the part of the Derp State above the water. FBI, CDC, etc are below the surface.

[TJJ2000]

And the spread of BS propaganda begins…

“he tried to overturn an election”

That is the BIGGEST LIE ever. Not once did Trump try and ‘overturn’ an election fools. He wanted a SECURE election. I guess in the land of Nazi’s LYING and making up sh*tty delusions is what it’s all about.

[Finrod]

The insane gaslighting about the 2020 election continues to this day.

[Libertariantranslator]

Welcome to 1876 ver. 2.0, complete with Comstockism and reconstructed slavery!

[mad.casual]

Trump had no major accomplishments while in office that could not have been achieved by a normal Republican politician.

Recognized Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel, oversaw the negotiation of the Abraham Accords, ended the war in Afghanistan on a timeline for his successor to pull off an open-field end zone dive.. all in the same term. All tried multiple times by separate administrations for *decades* prior.

Again, you guys don't seem to grasp your own precepts. Whether somebody likes Trump or not, trying to erase, ignore, or obfuscate history... playing up the loss of American lives, dismissing proxy wars, ignoring the economy, and actively deflecting from the utter lack of basic ethics and copious violations of everyday American's liberties in order to make him look bad, or worse, just makes you look stupid, or worse, evil.

[Mother's Lament]

"Trump had no major accomplishments while in office that could not have been achieved by a normal Republican politician."

Point out the "normal" Republican politician who would attempt rapproachment with North Korea, order the withdrawal of American troops from Germany and Afghanistan, piss off the Law & Order crowd with the First Step Act, evict the neocons and not start any wars.

[mad.casual]

piss off the Law & Order crowd with the First Step Act, evict the neocons and not start any wars.

The dude vetoed the National Defense Authorization Act (forcing an override) on the grounds that Congress wouldn't repeal a law passed by a Moral Majority Era government that blocks obscenity on the internet by rewarding big corporations.

Left: Republicans are corporatists, islamophobic, warmongering, moralizing christofascist, war profiteers!
DJT: OK, how about if we either cut the budget and bring troops home, or repeal laws trying to moralize and control speech on the internet?
Left: OMG! You just want Americans to die!

[Mother's Lament]

The Republican neocons teamed up with the Democrats to stop it happening.

House Democrats, Working With Liz Cheney, Restrict Trump’s Planned Withdrawal of Troops From Afghanistan and Germany

Of course not a peep at the time from Koch-brand Reason or Ilya Somin.

[R Mac]

Being anti-war isn’t nearly as important as being pro-abortion and open borders.

[XM]

Trump was dead serious about the border, to the point he separated children from fake parents. He would have built walls if he had sufficient support in congress. He gave the green light to keystone and drilling in Alaska (in defiance of greenies) which Biden has since reversed. He also fired Comey, which was the right thing to do.

The deep state is just another way of saying the left. Wokeness is no different than racism - it is a human condition and cannot be gotten rid of by taking out some players. Trump gnashed his teeth at players kneeling at the flag, but he largely stayed within the boundaries of his power in cultural issues.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

Would have secured the border of he hadn’t been kneecapped from within his own party. Just like getting rid of Obamacare.

[TrickyVic (old school)]

Hey, Trump put the kids in concentration camps.

Now Biden wants to expand the concentration camps with his remain in Texas idea.

The fact that the holding facilities were call concentration camps by liberals and they no longer call them that now that Trump is not in office tells you it was never about the migrants. It was all about hating Trump. Beyond reasonable thought at that.

[Mike Laursen]

This.

[Roberta]

Yes, a normal Republican president could have achieved the good things, but most would not. That’s one difference with Trump. Another is that most Republican presidents of my time would have also done some bad things that Trump did not.

Jeb Bush and Marco Rubio would've attempted some of the same appointments, caught media flak, and withdrawn them in favor of "acceptable" ones.

[Finrod]

Before they hated Trump, they hated W (with stopoffs for Romney and McCain). Before they hated W, they hated his father. Before they hated Sr., they hated Reagan. Before they hated Reagan, they hated Nixon. Before they hated Nixon, they hated Eisenhower.

The whole history of these fuckers since World War II is to hate whoever is the most prominent Republican at the time. They've already started on DeSantis.

[JesseAz]

The libertarian case for novel criminal construction to go after icky politicians.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

They’d prosecute anyone who voted for Trump if it were practical.

[JesseAz]

Ga grand jury tried too. What a mess of a jury return.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

Well I voted for Trump in 2020 but I live in Illinois so it really didn't count. Hoping I can get an exemption.

[JesseAz]

You also voted in Pa and Ga. But not for Trump.

[Mother's Lament]

Heck, I voted a couple of times for Biden and I'm not even American.

[Darth Buckeye]

They will probably argue that anyone who voted for Trump is guilty of "aiding and abetting" the insurrection and should be deprived of their rights to vote or bear arms.

[Nazi-Chipping Warlock]

Somin isn't a libertarian.

[mad.casual]

Not really a professor of law either.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Somins picture looks more like a mugshot than Trumps.

[mad.casual]

It's actually funny because I worked with an "Ilya". Somin looks a *lot* like him with a hairpiece. As clichè as it may sound, that guy was an utter moron too. Like "You realize this formula you wrote has an odd number of parenthesis, right?" moron.

[Mother's Lament]

Libertarians For Process Crimes That Aren't Even Process Crimes.

The LPCTAEPC wing.

[Dillinger]

>>law professor Ilya Somin

should keep his gameplay in the classroom lest he clown himself in the real world

[Stuck in California]

Too late.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

For some reason I’m imagining an animated Mr. T from his 80’s cartoon beating the shit out of Somin while ranting ‘Shoulda stayed in school’.

[Gaear Grimsrud]

14th amendment huh. Yeah that's the ticket.
https://jonathanturley.org/2023/09/08/ragefully-wrong-a-response-to-professor-laurence-tribe/

[Mother's Lament]

The grownups are back in charge something something...

[mad.casual]

"For the head of state in a democracy, there are few more serious crimes than using fraud to try to stay in power after losing an election."

My buddy Ilya Somin says “The worst part about heads of state is that they committed fraud on their way out.” and I say, “I don’t think that was the worst part.”

Maybe the worst part is the threatening to airstrike law abiding citizens on American soil. Way up high. And then the second would be the raping. And then the third would be the scheming. But, anyways, fraud would be way fucking down the line, you know.

Ilya, you’re the retarded ass of a joke written before you even had a case to make. You should be embarrassed.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

I miss Norm.

[A Cynical Asshole]

No, libertarians should no support the weaponization of the justice system to go after the current president's primary political rival on charges that are a stretch to put it lightly. Next dumb question.

[mad.casual]

I’m really beginning to think property rights and the NAP are not enough and there needs to be a policy against intentional, earnest, mendacious stupidity. I know it allows for all kinds of purity tests and self-declared authoritarianism, but you can’t (in the sense of ‘capable’ or ‘possible’, not allowed) have liberty or libertarianism with people being inentionally and earnestly mendaciously stupid.

You just can’t have a discussion about property rights even to ensure their own ownership with people who will take others’ property and/or enjoy or even waste the fruits of the taking and then say “What’s property?” or “Sonograms detect electrical impulses.” It really is a hoist the black flag and slit throats sort of situation.

[Overt]

The problem is that lawyers are paid to take any tenuous, flimsy argument and speak with absolute, arrogant confidence that it is the strongest truth to exist since the ten commandments.

This will always be a problem- it is what got us the New Deal, the Switch In Time, Roe v Wade, and myriad other abortions of the law.

It isn't mendacious stupidity. It is raw, unadulterated mendacity. These fucks want an outcome, and if that requires torturing the meaning of "Commerce Clause" or "Tax" or "Fraud", well that is a small price for them to pay if it wins their argument and prints that paycheck. Damn the precedent.

[mad.casual]

While I don't disagree that lawyers are a problem, that's not it, or all of it. Lawyers, at least nominally, are either professing what they believe to be the truth or doing their job/duty and have been doing so since well before anyone penned the name Atticus Finch. None of them are saying "Sonograms detect electricity." It's jurinalists like ENB who are specifically voiding science and reason for no other reason than to attract morons and torment people; and if Trump's words were a call to violence, their repeated mendacity, done far longer than Trump and purely of their own volition, is a violation of the NAP.

[soldiermedic76]

I missed the sonograms detect electrical signals. She really is vapid and stupid. She thinks that's an argument? Did anyone point out EKGs and telemetry also only pick up electrical signals (that's actually their entire point)? Or that a pulse ox works by measuring light diffusion and return from a laser? Or that X-rays don't actually take a picture of your insides but rather measure x-ray penetration (same with CT scans and MRI, just different physical forces)? And finally, did anyone correct her that sonograms (and type of ultrasound) actually work the same way as sonar and radar, that it's sound waves not electrical impulses that are being measured? Per Taber's Medical Dictionary (considered by most medical professionals to be the most authoritative resource) sonogram: the record obtained by the use of ultrasonography. And ultrasonography: the use of ultrasound to produce images of an organ or tissue. Ultrasonic echoes are recorded as the return from reflecting or refracting tissues of different densities. And ultrasound: inaudible sound in the frequency of approximately 20,000 to 10 billion cycles per second.

[soldiermedic76]

My God and she calls herself an editor. Didn't have access to Taber's (which is on line) before she published that bullshit?

[DesigNate]

She had access, she just doesn’t care.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

Why should she? ENB has basically said she has nothing but contempt for Reason readers. At least the actual libertarians.

[TheReEncogitationer]

OK. You first.

[Mickey Rat]

Remember when Trump suggesting he was going to have Hillary Clinton prosecuted for her illegal e-mail server was considered unconscionable persecution of a political opponent that should not be done in the name of political civility?

I must have remembered that principle wrong.

[A Cynical Asshole]

"Trump's attempt to overturn the 2020 election well deserves punishment from the standpoint of both retribution and deterrence," wrote Somin...

We certainly wouldn't want any other politicians to get the idea that they can question the validity of an election they lost. I mean, no one ever dared to do such a thing before Trump, and it's best we, in order to protect Our Democracy, prevent any future questioning of election results, by anyone ever.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

I wonder if they’ll ever let Al gore or Hillary out of prison for questioning elections?

[CE]

Or her supporters out of prison for disrupting a Supreme Court nomination hearing?

[VULGAR MADMAN]

What about losing an election and promising to #resist?

[Mike Laursen]

While I agree that most of what Trump did can be defended as exercising his right to free speech, two of the Georgia charges go beyond mere protected speech:

– His threatening Raffensperger “That’s a criminal, that’s a criminal offense. And you can’t let that happen. That’s a big risk to you and to Ryan, your lawyer. And that’s a big risk. But they are shredding ballots, in my opinion, based on what I’ve heard. And they are removing machinery and they’re moving it as fast as they can, both of which are criminal finds. And you can’t let it happen and you are letting it happen. You know, I mean, I’m notifying you that you’re letting it happen.” Soliciting Raffensperger to violate his oath of office is a minimum sentence of 1 year if a jury is convinced Trump was threatening him.

– Knowingly filing a false document. There’s pretty strong evidence of this. That can be as little as a $10,000 fine or as much as ten years. (Ten years seems very excessive.)

[CE]

Telling an election official that he's not doing his job properly is now a crime?

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Mindless obedience to government officials is the very heart of libertarianism.

[Mike Laursen]

Hopefully for Trump he’ll get someone on his Georgia jury who can hear a clear threat and not recognize it as such.

[JesseAz]

Where was the clear threat dumdum?

By your rationale anyone petitioning government is a threat.

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Just remember that Mike the dummy promises he’s a centrist.

[Mother's Lament]

He swears he's not a Democrat folks.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

What threat, faggot?

[NOYB2]

His threatening Raffensperger “That’s a criminal, that’s a criminal offense. ... Soliciting Raffensperger to violate his oath of office is a minimum sentence of 1 year if a jury is convinced Trump was threatening him.

I see neither a "threat", nor a "solicitation", nor a "violation of the oath of office" there.

Knowingly filing a false document. There’s pretty strong evidence of this.

Really? What specific document did Trump falsely file and where did he file it?

[Mickey Rat]

Trump was threatening Raffensberger with accusing him of doing his duties improperly. That does not mean Trump was correct in his assessment, but his "threat" was the rule of law.

[JesseAz]

He never threatened him. The transcript exists.

They filed the alternate electors, a process also used in 1964 as court cases still were active (like in Ga) due to required constitutional dates.

Ignorance seems to be your forte.

[Zeb]

I see no threat in there. Perhaps he was incorrect about the facts, but mentioning potential legal penalties is not a crime. Nor is being wrong about facts.

[CE]

But was it an "attempt to overturn the election," or more of an attempt to find out who really won?

Because people protesting for election integrity on public property sound a whole lot more sympathetic than insurrectionists waging a deadly assault on the Capitol (even if the only people who died were unarmed protestors).

[XM]

There wasn’t any deadly assault on Capitol. Insurrection actually involves a tangible plot to overthrow the government. Most people who walked around the capitol were never charged for insurrection.

The media keeps referring to it as an insurrection not only because they don’t understand the law, but they’re also the printing press of the democrat party.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

The media doesn’t care about the law. Just democrat narratives.

[Ersatz]

WRONG - they totally understand the law. They deserve no benefit of the doubt. They ARE the printing press of the D party, on that we can agree... but they call it an insurrection as an integral part of an active, intentional gaslighting psyop.

[Ghatanathoah]

There's a difference between questioning the validity of something and breaking the law to overturn it, especially using fraud and violence. If Trump had only used the same legal strategies that Gore had done in the past he would not be facing these indictments.

People act like the Democrats or the "deep state" have it in for Trump because they are treating him much worse and more severely than other politicians. But the simple truth is that they're treating him worse because he really is worse. They're probably glad he committed these crimes because they do dislike him personally and are glad to have a legal reason to charge him with a crime (although a lot of that dislike comes from him just being a terrible leader, politician, and human). But, unlike Trump and his supporters, they do obey the law.

[mad.casual]

But the simple truth is that they’re treating him worse because he really is worse.

Wait, above you said he was a do-nothing ineffectual. By your own statements, they're happy to indict him for crimes even though he didn't do anything.

[Paulpemb]

"Unlike Trump and his associates, (the Deep State) obeys the law."

By lying to a judge to get a warrant to wiretap his campaign chairman before he's even elected?

[Finrod]

What fraud? What violence? You're a laughable joke.

[SRG2]

We see the complement to Rod Dreher's law of merited impossibility. "We don't agree that what Trump did was criminal, and his crimes were justified".

[VULGAR MADMAN]

Stop projecting, you half-wit.

[R Mac]

What happened to your original SRG handle shrike?

[JesseAz]

We see soros puppet shrike defending political prosecutions through novel legal construction.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

No crimes took place you stupid piece of shit.

[Rev Arthur L kuckland]

Reminder Ilya supported Biden while continuing the lie that trump called neo nazis good people, right here on reasons sight. He is a dem.

[NOYB2]

Somin is worse than a generic Democrat; they usually just vote out of greed and ignorance.

Somin reaches the intellectual levels of legal scholar that were complicit in totalitarian regimes.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

So he's the Noam Chomsky of libertarianism.

[Mother's Lament]

Those 30 pieces of Koch silver were apparently the price of his soul.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

He would hav e been a proud supporter of the Nazi party back in the 30’s.

[Rev Arthur L kuckland]

Articles like this piss me off. Most of the commenters didn't vote for trump in 2016,or 2020. The ones that did acknowledge that he's an annoying blowhard, but still better than Hillary and Biden (hey Ilya and bohem how's you Biden support going now?). It is blindingly obvious to the not tds addled loosers that is is political percecuting and there is a 2 tiered justice system, yet reason pushes these stupid interviews

[damikesc]

Gone from "open borders no matter what" to "let's weaponize against people who are 'bad'"?

Ilya, if you had the intellect God blessed a not-too-bright rock with, you'd be embarrassed.

[CE]

Well, presidents and senators shouldn't be above the law.
But neither should anyone be fooled that these are serious criminal investigations and not politically motivated assaults on democracy, when one party launches an annual investigation or indictment or special prosecutor every year against their leading opponent until they find something that sticks.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Now interview a libertarian and ask the same question.

[Diane Reynolds (Paul.)]

Rather reminds me of this. Ok, Reason, now do David Frost.

[Balloon maker]

No. But fuck that malignant narcissist

[Mother's Lament]

See, you can hate Trump but still recognize these prosecutions as corruption and fascism. It's not an either/or Reason.

[mad.casual]

You would think the preferred order would be a pristine and impartial justice system finding Trump guilty of some shitty real estate shenanigans or regular old crimes like tax evasion, Hunter guilty of illegal handgun purchases and acting as an undeclared foreign agent, Joe guilty of violating emoluments as VP, and independent FBItards like Wray confounded because they can't defile the agency to enact their political will, etc., etc.

There would be no question as to whether he was actually guilty or whether it was a personal crusade or partisan political persecution hack job. Instead, you have to know that they know that you know it's a hack job and nobody cares.

[Ghatanathoah]

Can someone explain to me why Reason's comment section is full of MAGA partisan hacks? Most of these people would keep defending Trump if he was found in bed with both a dead girl and a live boy at the same time. Guys, you need to stop being in denial. It isn't like Trump did something everyone else did and is getting picked on because people don't like him. He actually did something that was a whole other level of bad than a typical politician.

[TJJ2000]

I must of missed that "whole other level of bad"; what was it again?

[Mother's Lament]

“Reason’s comment section is full of MAGA partisan hacks?”

You were hoping for a nice orangemanbad wank with fellow CNN-educated bien pensants?

” It isn’t like Trump did something everyone else did”

12 Minutes of Democrats Denying Election Results

Meanwhile Hillary’s campaign gave Obama’s FBI a bogus file of fiction in order to mislead a judge so it could spy on the nominee for the other party and then pressure a probe after GOP victory, but magically that’s not election interference.

“He actually did something that was a whole other level of bad than a typical politician.”

Yeah, Joe Biden has a drawer full of burner phones, 5,400 emails from 3 fake email pseudonyms, conducted 20+ phone calls with Hunter’s foreign oligarchs, and received $50 million in foreign influence peddling income, into 20+ shady Llc’s via dozens of shady bank accounts, paid out to 9 different Biden family members, and has zero charges.

But Donald Trump claimed income on the correct line, kept his own presidential papers using legal precedent set by Clinton, and legally contested election results in the courts using precedents firmly established in the 1870s, 1960, and 2000, and Shrike sockpuppet #1374 thinks that deserves 4 indictments, 2 impeachments, 1 mugshot and $100 million in legal bills

[mad.casual]

We impeached Trump without a finding of guilt for asking a foreign government to investigate a political opponent. Biden's DOJ has, for 3 yrs., been charging people in an investigation to charge Trump for speaking on Jan. 6th and no one has yet to bat an eye.

Two tier doesn't even really describe it. Pedestal is more accurate.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

Go back to WaPo you moron. We don’t need another Marxist faggot here. And you are certainly the farthest thing from a libertarian.

Or are you another cowardly piece of shit sock for Pedo Jeffy, Shreek, etc?

[SQRLSY One]

The Meeting of the Right Rightist Minds will now come to Odor!

Years ago by now, Our Dear Leader announced to us, that He may commit murder in broad daylight, and we shall still support Him! So He Has Commanded, and So Must it be Done!

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/24/donald-trump-says-he-could-shoot-somebody-and-still-not-lose-voters

And now, oh ye Faithful of the Republican Church, It Has Become Known Unto us, that it is also in His Power and Privilege Ass Well, to murder the USA Constitution in broad daylight. Thus He Has Spoken, and Thus Must It Be Done! Thou shalt Render Unto Trump, and simply REND the USA Constitution, and wipe thine wise asses with it! Do NOT render unto some moldering old scrap of bathroom tissue! Lest we be called fools, or worse!

https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/03/politics/trump-constitution-truth-social/index.html

Proud Boys, STAND with TRUMP, and stand by! And if ye don’t agree 110%, then we don’t need you polluting our world, because all who disagree with us in ANY way are LEFTISTS!!!

There, I think that’s a wrap! I’ve covered it ALL! You can take the rest of the day off.

(You’re welcome!)

[Mike Laursen]

It’s maybe the only political forum on the Internet that has virtually zero moderation. So, assholes who would be banned by now elsewhere have free rein here.

[Beezard]

A decent cross section of these people have been here a very long time.

[Mike Laursen]

As have I. From the very beginning of Hit & Run.

[Mother's Lament]

Did you invent your own forum rules and demand moderation back then too?

Here’s the crazy thing, Mike. You’re a troll who goes around lying, baiting, sea lioning and calling names.

You most famously socked as a troll called White Knight, whose admitted purpose was to troll anyone who said anything positive about Trump.

You also used to boast about trolling Ken and tried to recruit others to join you:
Mike Laursen
September.18.2021 at 11:38 am
SQRLSY, can you cover for me today? In a typical day, I usually:
– post a comment or two pointing out logical flaws, contradictions and partisanship in Ken’s essays, which he regards as examples of flawless logical thinking
– post a comment or two pointing out that Ashli Babbitt was not a saint and the January 6th MAGA rioters were violent
– post one “Fuck Tulpa!” comment

But at the same time as all this you insisted that everyone must be respectful to you and agree with you.

You’re a genuine hypocrite.

[R Mac]

Dee’s a real cunt.

[DesigNate]

Just because someone fundamentally disagrees with you doesn’t make them an asshole.

[SQRLSY One]

MANY people (including Jews) fundamentally disagreed with Hitler and the NAZIs when they "fundamentally" promulgated the idea that Jews did NOT deserve to LIVE! So the Hitler-and-NAZIs stance... Did NOT make them ASSHOLES? Is there ANY valid definition of the (metaphorical) term "asshole"? If not, why does this term even exist? All of the people who use this term... Are WRONG?

[R Mac]

Nowhere else could you squawk like this.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

Banned elsewhere……..

As in having non demcoratthink speech suppressed? Yeah, you fags don’t like dissent, do you?

[Zeb]

I don't think there are as many Trump enthusiasts here as you think. This is not about Trump, it is about using politically motivated prosecutions to deny people the opportunity to vote for their preferred candidate.

[AT]

I think it's pretty clear that these are wholly politicized actions that have nothing to do with justice and everything to with partisanship.

That said, I've long been of the position that Trump/MAGA's actions following the election, and particularly on January 6 deserve some kind of accountability. Because what they did was wrong. It wasn't "peaceful protest." It wasn't "patriotism." It wasn't trying to "save America." It was mayhem. Wanton, unhinged, violent, destructive mayhem for the sake of mayhem - given tacit approval, if not encouragement, by Trump.

That deserves consequences. They wanted so desperately to "win" their race to the bottom against the Left, and now they - like the Left - deserve the prizes for getting there. Good and hard.

Also, from a practical sense, we should hope for whatever makes it possible to get Trump off the 2024 ballot. It's the only shot at stopping Biden/Kamala from getting another four years.

[TJJ2000]

Did you even see the video footage? Lines of signs in protest. Security allowing/doing nothing to prevent it. A little pushing on the front lines (Oh big crime there.../s). Describing what I saw as "unhinged, violent, destructive mayhem for the sake of mayhem" is like describing a school assembly as such.

Try not to buy the Nazi-Propaganda going around and stick with reality eh?

[AT]

We all saw the footage, watching in grim horror as it played on live television.

Don't downplay it. Don't try to minimize it as if any degree of it was acceptable. They don't scale the walls and kick in the windows to go tearing down the halls during a school assembly. They don't trample all over each other. They don't get into fights with security/LEOs. They don't storm every inch of ground they can cover screaming like banshees the entire time.

We watched it happen. Pretty audacious to tell someone to "stick with reality," immediately after you get done saying, "don't believe your lying eyes."

“The Party told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.”
-1984

[TJJ2000]

Ewhhh………. A broken window? And what was that 12-teenagers in that group unarmed….. What fights with LEOS? Oh here’s one…

https://edition.cnn.com/2021/12/24/politics/january-6-video-capitol-hill-riot/index.html

They sure do narrate the sh*t out of it (The worst 3-hour battle ever!!!! — He’s slapping the LEOS helmet!!! OMG!!!! /s). Sure that ONE or TWO guys should held for assault. But man look at all the mayhem behind that ONE guy…. Why it must be a horrible attack going on out there… /s

What else you got to show? Give me a link; maybe I’m missing something.

I doubt it though as that one video CNN tried to sell the sh*t out of and if they had worse they'd show worse.

[AT]

I don’t care about CNN’s commentary.

Is what the MAGA rioters did that day wrong, or isn’t it?

Does a normal, decent, well-adjusted, moral person start scaling the walls of the Capitol building? Or is that the act of a rage-filled, irrational, nutjob who is lashing out in unhinged, destructive, and otherwise wrongful ways?

But see – this brings me back to my original point, doesn’t it. This is WHY I’m not really all that worked up about locking up Oathkeeper/Proud Bois gang lords and gang members for painfully long sentences, and raking their MAGA demagogue over the coals. Is it an abuse of justice? Mm, YMMV. But MAGA is… well, they’re kinda like transgenders.

They want us all to go along with something that’s demonstrably false, play make believe about the reality of things, and declare their behavior perfectly normal and acceptable. And they rely on like-minded enablers to affirm them in this delusion, to the point that it’s so ingrained that they believe – genuinely believe – the lie, and start actively living it. And to anyone who refuses to share this delusion, they deride them as the enemy and then play the oh-so-persecuted perpetual victim.

Seeing them get a much deserved comeuppance is frankly satisfying. I hope they go after BLM/Antifa (aka MAGA Blue) next. They deserve each other. Because they’re all pathetic. Every one of them. All because they don’t have the simple integrity to admit: “It’s wrong. Wrong, shameful, humanity at its least redeeming, and flat out anti-American.”

And, like I said – if nothing else, maybe it’ll end up being a blessing (or, a blessing-in-disguise for Team MAGA) and we end up with a Republican nominee that actually stands a chance of booting this miserable senile Democrat out of office.

[BigT]

Apparently you are unfamiliar with serious riots where the rioters assault people, start fires, destroy property, intimidate citizens, and often kill.
As one observer noted, this was a “weak-ass white man’s riot.”

[Mike Laursen]

AT literactually wrote: “I hope they go after BLM/Antifa (aka MAGA Blue) next.”

[AT]

Is a weak-ass white man's riot right or wrong?

Does a normal, decent, well-adjusted, moral person engage/participate in a weak-ass white man's riot? Or is that the act of a rage-filled, irrational, nutjob who is lashing out in unhinged, destructive, and otherwise wrongful ways?

[TJJ2000]

The true intentions behind your "is it wrong" BS.

"Why can't all the citizens just lie down quietly and take a [Na]tional So[zi]alist take-over of the USA even if its route to power is probably through election fraud?"

I think you dismiss the people's power over their government of the 1st and 2nd Amendments too easily. "or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances"

[TJJ2000]

The longer you talk the more downplaying you do. I'd imagine because leftard-indoctrination had you duped into delusion-ally thinking it was as bad as 9/11. Stick with reality.

[AT]

It wasn't anything even remotely as bad as 9/11.

But let's try to avoid comparisons, and judge the event strictly on its own merits. You keep trying to move away from that. Let's stay on point please.

[SQRLSY One]

Their point is "My Tribe RIGHT, your tribe WRONG." Always! It is ass deep ass their thinking goes! 'Cause they "think" (actually emote) with their ASSES!

The intelligent, well-informed, and benevolent members of tribes have ALWAYS been feared and resented by those who are made to look relatively worse (often FAR worse), as compared to the advanced ones. Especially when the advanced ones denigrate tribalism. The advanced ones DARE to openly mock “MY Tribe’s lies leading to violence against your tribe GOOD! Your tribe’s lies leading to violence against MY Tribe BAD! VERY bad!” And then that’s when the Jesus-killers, Mahatma Gandhi-killers, Martin Luther King Jr.-killers, etc., unsheath their long knives!

“Do-gooder derogation” (look it up) is a socio-biologically programmed instinct. SOME of us are ethically advanced enough to overcome it, using benevolence and free will! For details, see http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Do_Gooders_Bad/ and http://www.churchofsqrls.com/Jesus_Validated/ .

Then they crucified Jesus, 'cause Jesus made them look bad! ALSO because Jesus made them look bad FOR THEIR STUPID, HIDE-BOUND TRIBALISM! "The parable of the Good Samaritan" was VERY pointed, because the Samaritans were of the WRONG tribe, in the eyes of "Good Jews" of the day.

[TJJ2000]

Their point is “My Tribe RIGHT, your tribe WRONG.”

That is true because 99% of the time "your tribe" is all about conquering the USA for a [Na]tional So[zi]alist Empire (WRONG!!!)... Although the right-wing has so many RINO'S it too only runs about 50% Constitutional; It's far LESS WRONG than your side.

That is just the facts of it.

[TJJ2000]

But of course being the biggest partisan hack here who is also of the party who likes to play [WE] mob RULES with a massive amount of projection (blaming everyone else for exactly what you do) you'll never accept any other variable in the equation except which side is your mob.

[R Mac]

Poor shitsy, thought AT would join you.

[SQRLSY One]

AT is already with me concerning being data-driven and a non-tribalist, judging by AT's writings. When are YOU gonna join us? How is your non-data-driven tribalist tinfoil hate-hat working for you these days?

[SQRLSY One]

Has Dear Leader TrumpfenFuhrer yet rewarded you with Sloppy 539th sessions with Spermy Daniels? No? Then what's in it for YOU, you power-hungering glory-for-me-at-all-costs internet bottom-dweller?

[TJJ2000]

lol... Your the one who went from punishable "violence, mayhem and destruction" to just patriotism bad so the first faulty claim didn't matter.

[Zeb]

I am not convinced that the election was stolen, but it is not demonstrably false to claim that it was. It is quite possible that it was. We have not seen evidence to prove that, and it may not every be possible to produce evidence that can prove it absolutely.

[Mother's Lament]

Tell him about the killer fire extinguishers, Shrike sockpuppet #256.

[SQRLSY One]

Power-lusting Trumptards slobber over the prospect of getting MOAH POWAH for themselves, at ANY costs! Ethics, principles, people, law and order, a decent future for most people… ALL can and WILL be sacrificed for MOAH POWAH for Trumpturds!
READ the below and hang your tiny brainless, power-lusting shit-head in SHAME for always taking the side of Trumpanzees, power-luster-pig!
https://www.jpost.com/international/kill-him-with-his-own-gun-dc-cop-talks-about-the-riot-655709 also https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/04/28/michael-fanone-trump-gop-riots/
‘Kill him with his own gun’ – DC cop talks about Capitol riot
DC Police officer Michael Fanone: I had a choice to make: Use deadly force, which would likely result with the mob ending his life, or trying something else.
“Pro-law-and-order” Trumpturds take the side of trumpanzees going apeshit, making cops beg for their lives! For trying to defend democracy against mobocracy! Can you slime-wads sink ANY lower?!?!

Well, rather punish the lawbreakers, instead of having them grab your gun, so that they can "kill you with your own gun"!

What happened to the "back the blue" and "lawn odor" wings of "Team R" anyway?

PS, mob violence and mob property destruction are both always wrong... Except when MY Tribe does it! Think Boston Tea Party!

Me? Given my druthers, I'd rather have the thugs steal my TV and my expensive sneakers, than steal my democracy! My TV can be easily replaced! Democracy? Not so sure about THAT one!

[TJJ2000]

LOL... "Power-lusting"? Leftard Projection 101 on steroids.
Trump was famous for all the Power CUTTING he did.

[SQRLSY One]

Pussy-grabbing power? Tariff power? Border-walls-and-armies powers? But most of all... The POWER to arbitrarily override election results... 'Cause I don't LIKE the results!

[TJJ2000]

The BIG LIE of lefty-indoctrination.
Election integrity inquiry isn't 'override election results'.

Biden extended and expanded Tariffs dumb*ss. So the only power Trump ever used more was stopping USA invasion ironically the #1 purpose/reason a Union of States was ever even established.

[SQRLSY One]

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2020/06/26/appeals-court-trump-wrongly-diverted-25-billion-in-milcon-funds-for-border-wall/

Appeals court: Trump wrongly diverted $2.5 billion in military construction funds for border wall

Power-grabbing pussy-grabber GRABBED POWERS (budget powers) that do NOT belong to Him, per the USA cunts-tits-tuition!

[TJJ2000]

Biden's $40-Billion ruled UN-Constitutional by SCOTUS Student Loan Forgiveness plan. See; whatever partisan BS you spout the left is always WORSE by far.

[SQRLSY One]

Whatabout the whataboutism? If I steal your bicycle, will you (instead of accusing me of theft) point out that the thugs down the street stole your CAR, so my offense is totes OK? If “Team R” nukes New Jersey, they should be forgiven, if “Team D” nukes Utah?

AT’s comment on THIS page is spot-on! (2 comments down right now). Whataboutism IS confession for the sins of MY team, whenever I go whatabouting!!!

We make ZERO progress towards individual freedom by playing what-about!!! It’s just a fight about the relative bottoms of the gutters!

[TJJ2000]

You've been doing what-about Trump ever since you got here.

[SQRLSY One]

Whatabout Trump? Whatabout Biden? Whatabout BOTH of them? Neither is on "my team"... I vote libertarian! It is just that the VAST majority of tribalists commenting here are "Team R"... Why should I rag on "Team D" when there are just about ZERO "Team D" here to rag on?

[TJJ2000]

If you wanna ditch on Trump do it for actual reason. Like signing/supporting the Cares Act (that Democrats wrote and you making note of that) and bump-stock bans and other legitimate UN-Constitutional things.

Don’t run around spouting completely deceptive lies like Trump had worse deficits than either Obama or Biden when everyone knows the Democrat written Cares Act was the only reason his last term was over-blown and if you're not a partisan hack at least acknowledge that team [D] is far worse.

[Mother's Lament]

"Wanton, unhinged, violent, destructive mayhem for the sake of mayhem"

Like when Team D lit Washington DC and seven other cities alight for Trump's inauguration?
Or like when Team D attacked the Senate during Kavanagh's confirmation?
Or like when Team D attacked the White House in 2020 forcing its evacuation and lit St. John's on fire?

What about the uncharged FBI agents breaking Capitol windows on J6. Do they count? We know FBI agents caught on video telling the crowd to attack the Capitol magically didn't.

[AT]

I'm curious - do people, when they make these kinds of arguments, appreciate that it's an effective admission of wrongdoing?

See, by engaging in a comparative analysis (you probably know it better by the term "whataboutism") you're attempting to assert that the bad actions of others are egregious enough that your actions (or, in this case, MAGA/Trump's - assuming you're not a part of that strange little bloc), by paling in comparison, are therefore justified.

Like, if you stole a candy bar and tried to say, "But what about that guy? He stole a car!" And sure - we may even follow a certain quantitative mentality in our own laws (petty larceny, in this case, vs grand larceny). But you're still both thieves. What you did was still wrong.

And now you've admitted it, because you've tried to distance yourself from the wrongdoing, failing to realize that you've just acknowledged it. You've acknowledged that what you did was "bad" in an attempt to obfuscate it by saying that what they did was "worse."

So, yea - when Team D did all that stuff, it was terrible, wrong, lawless, and immoral.

As it was when Team MAGA did what they did.

Thanks for admitting it.

[BigT]

Rioters should be held accountable for what they did, but so should gov instigators. Equality under the law. Ever hear about that?

[AT]

I've never expressed any objection to that.

(Though, I think you'll find a lot of pushback from MAGA when it comes to holding their beloved messianic outgoing president accountable for his instigating. Or, were you talking about someone else?)

[TJJ2000]

And the 22-year prison sentence for the “mean tweeters” in that “car robbery”?? As BigT states; this is about unequal treatment of the justice system and it’s as obvious as night and day. Or how about Hillaries many multiple indictments for ?trying to overthrow the government? for her ?terrorist? act of claiming a fraud-ed election and her mob of #NotMyPresident?

[AT]

Trump himself was the one who said Hillary shouldn't be investigated/prosecuted.

You understand that they're all on the same side, right?

[TJJ2000]

lol... So the left compulsively persecutes Trump but Trump doesn't prosecute Hillary..... Oh yeah sure; that's definitely same, same... /s

[AT]

My point is, both the MAGA-right and the Marxist-left agreed that Hillary shouldn't be prosecuted.

They're really not that different from each other.

[TJJ2000]

There is definitely a difference between a party that illegitimately persecutes political opponents and one that doesn't.

[Mother's Lament]

“you probably know it better by the term “whataboutism””

First class midwittery.

1. That wasn’t comparative analysis.

2. Whataboutism isn’t comparative analysis.

3. Whataboutism isn’t necessarily (or even usually) a fallacy. In this case I provided the necessary context into whether or not your critique was relevant or fair.

4. Accusing me of whataboutism was also in itself manipulative and served your motive of discrediting what I said. This too is a form of fallacy.

5. In those charges Trump didn’t do anything even morally wrong let alone illegal, while the uncharged Hillary and Joe’s actions were both morally wrong and illegal. Pointing out that Trump’s opponents and peers are not being charged for behavior that is actually criminal, while he is being charged for behavior that is not even wrong, directly answers your original allegation. As does pointing out that J6 rioters were well-behaved compared to other recent political riots in the capital, and that the protest was not extraordinary.

6. By accusing me of a fallacy you were hoping to redirect the argument from the valid comparisons presented, that diminished your argument that J6 was extraordinary or even unusual.

[AT]

You were literally comparing the J6 mayhem to "Team D" starting fires, attacking the Senate/White House, and whatever it is you think the FBI did. (And now you're trying to do it with Hillary and Biden as well.)

For pete's sake, you straight up UNDERLINED your use of the term "What about...". And then you later said, quote: "J6 rioters were well-behaved compared to...".

Why are you even bringing ANY of this up? They're NOT valid comparisons, because they have absolutely no bearing on the question being asked. We're not talking about Team D or the FBI. We're talking about MAGA, and their actions.

Was MAGA's actions on J6 right or wrong? Full stop.

By trying to compare them to the actions of others, you're necessarily trying to make MAGA's seem less worse. And they may very well BE less worse - but that doesn't mean they weren't bad/wrong.

But you don't want to talk about why MAGA's actions were bad/wrong. Why is that?

>> 3. Whataboutism isn’t necessarily (or even usually) a fallacy.

I didn't say it was. I said it necessarily acknowledges the fact that the person engaging in it recognizes the wrongdoing of what they're defending, and trying to rationalize it as justified in comparison to other examples of worse wrongdoing.

Just, play straight Ma. Start with the simple admission that what MAGA did on J6 was wrong. Can you do even that much?

[TJJ2000]

You mean that whole ONE person slapping LEO helmets? Yeah; He probably did something wrong.

[AT]

No, I mean this: https://i.imgur.com/3A1Wqio.png

But don't believe my lying eyes, right?

[DesigNate]

Was that pic before or after the cops started shooting tear gas and other chemical irritants into the middle of the crowd of what had been, up til that point, peaceful but loud protesting?

Timing and context for pictures is crucial.

[AT]

Why?

Well, anyway - let's give the manic crowd the benefit of the doubt and suppose it's after. The "peaceful but loud protesting" has been ordered to disperse and crowd-control actions have been taken to clearly evidence that things are about to get a whole lot worse for everyone involved.

At this point, does a normal, decent, law-abiding American patriot say, "Well, this escalated quickly. Time to go before things get REALLY out of hand!" Or does that normal, decent, law-abiding American patriot degrade into a feral rage and begin lashing out in destructive mayhem as they make their move to accomplish... to... for the goal of.... sorry, what was it they thought they were going to accomplish that day?

One of the things I never understood about the MAGA narrative on the subject is - you see things are starting to go real sideways, and that your so-called "protest" is quickly descending into herd-mentality mob madness. I mean, I don't know about you - but that's my cue to go the opposite direction from the Capitol.

Heck, even if you want to argue that there were instigators seeded among the crowd to agitate and provoke them, I mean... if some guy in khakis and a polo wearing wraparound sunglasses approaches me and is like, "Hey are you mad about the election? Me too. We should totally storm the Capitol building." - my first reaction is to slowly back away from that guy and put as much distance as possible between me and him. Why was MAGA's reaction, "HEY YEA GOOD IDEA LET'S DO THAT." I mean, is MAGA comprised of people that stupid?

Which brings us back to the $64,000 question. Is what the MAGA rioters did that day wrong, or isn’t it?

[DesigNate]

“Why?”

https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/06/eye-witness-account-january-6th-police-fired-crowd-gassed-crowd-baited-crowd-protesters-remained-peaceful-video/

Because that picture makes it seem like the crowd was like the mob in a zombie movie, but if it was taken right after flash bangs and tear gas were fired into a peaceful crowd (as per the alleged eye witness account), the context of why the crowd would look like that changes. So using that as a summation of the entire protest would be disingenuous at best (if that is the actual timing).

“has been ordered to disperse” a normal, law abiding citizen doesn’t have to follow an unlawful order to disperse if they’re engaged in peaceful protest and redressing their government for grievances. Fuck that noise, they serve us.

“you see things are starting to go real sideways, and that your so-called “protest” is quickly descending into herd-mentality mob madness.”

Some estimates have upwards of 120,000 people in the mall and around the Capitol, so not sure why you felt the need to put protest in scare quotes.

Rioting and property damage is obviously wrong. The overwhelming majority of people there (by at least some of the videos I saw, that includes people that went into the building) did no rioting and did no property damage. That’s not a “MAGA narrative”, it’s just the plain facts as shown on every major news outlet.

[TJJ2000]

One of the things I never understood about the [Na]tional So[zi]alist narrative on the subject is – you see things are starting to go real sideways in the USA just like every other nation that entertains communism and socialism.

What is your beef with Making America Great Again? Are you trying to conquer and destroy America or what?

No; Strongly petitioning the government for a redress of grievance because of socialist dictators especially when election fraud is the subject is not wrong precisely because the USA isn’t a socialist nation.

Either obey the US Constitution or deal with a patriotic citizenry extremely upset about their nation being conquered by Nazi’s.

Course; How wrong was the revolutionary war? They literally did commit insurrection and fully armed and killed thousands of people. I guess the very existence of the USA was just wrong?

You see. Your wasting time trying to play the "wrong" against the establishment game when the real issue is USA patriotism. Democrats don't believe in a USA (defined by the US Constitution) they believe in [Na]tional So[zi]al[ism] (spelled out in full as Nazism) and as such think Making America Great Again is a crime. Well it is a crime against Nazism; but when did Nazism take over the USA?

[AT]

I've tried to reply a couple times, but I can't. So, I guess you get the last word. If you ever want to pick it up, please let me know. 🙂

[TrickyVic (old school)]

""Just, play straight Ma. Start with the simple admission that what MAGA did on J6 was wrong. Can you do even that much?""

What MAGA did? Judge the group not the individuals?

[TJJ2000]

Democrats have always been about [WE] group-affiliation gangster power. Their entire political platform resides on it.

From skin-color to wealth-status to gender to party or any identifiable [WE] gang they can build-up a 'democratic' majority of *useful idiots* touting gov-guns over those 'icky ... not part of our gang' members of society. It's in the very workings of a pure democracy without any supreme principles (US Constitution).

Individualism is exactly what they are against. They decry individual responsibility insisting their 'gangs' must ?help? with 'guns'. They decry individual success insisting their 'gangs' must steal it and disperse it to their gang-members.

And the worse part is they're so indoctrinated they can't seem to see the obviousness of it. It is literally the makings of another Nazi-Germany only in the USA this time. Even self-proclaimed. [Na][Zi] is literally an abbreviation for [Na]tional (Federal) So[zi]alist. The political affiliation of over half the Democratic party.

[Mike Laursen]

The pathetic thing is Mother’s Lament can’t even be on Team MAGA. He’s a Canadian wannabe MAGA. He’s like a partisan Pinocchio, wishing he could be a real MAGA.

[Beezard]

And you wish you could make $0.50 on these comments. But you’re just here everyday getting pissed on because you’re that pathetic.

[Mike Laursen]

Love you, too.

Who are you?

[Mother's Lament]

The pathetic thing is Mike Laursen is an angry troll who can't take what he gives, so he makes up obtuse rules about who can have opinions.

[soldiermedic76]

So is Sarc. They're peas in a pod when it comes to that. Sarc cries he wants intellectually honest conversations but than constantly trolls, launching unprovoked attacks And then crying about posters attacking him back. Either they both lack any pretense of self awareness, or they're blatantly gaslighting. Or a third possibility, they're the same person.

[Zeb]

I don't think anyone is claiming that no crimes were committed on Jan 6.

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

“That said, I’ve long been of the position that Trump/MAGA’s actions following the election, and particularly on January 6 deserve some kind of accountability”

What position is that? Your ass raised in the air, wiggling? Waiting excitedly in anticipation for your democrat masters to raw dog your rectum?

[Finrod]

Yes, they were so violent that they stayed within the velvet ropes inside the Capitol, you complete fucking dumbshit.

[TJJ2000]

For What?

Why is it that there's all this talk about prosecution and hardly any talk about FOR WHAT? Oh yeah; I know why. It's a persecution not a prosecution. Purposely launched to deflect any actual investigation into the multiple election abnormalities everyone saw. Persecute the victim for the WIN! The left and their mobster mentality is so predictable at this point.

[JFree]

Others worry the prosecution will inspire “ever more aggressive tit-for-tat investigations.”

Well this worry is at least five decades too late and will result in nothing at all from those people who worry.

Inspiring ever stupider and ultimately more anti-constitutional tit-for-tat investigations is the only possible outcome of a government/politician/party malfeasance investigation that focuses entirely on whether an individual did right/wrong and that ignores the structural problem that allowed it to happen. I am reminded of:

But what is government itself, but the greatest of all reflections on human nature? If men were angels, no government would be necessary. If angels were to govern men, neither external nor internal controls on government would be necessary. In framing a government which is to be administered by men over men, the great difficulty lies in this: you must first enable the government to control the governed; and in the next place oblige it to control itself.

It shouldn’t matter one whit, whether Trump is an angel or a baboon – innocent or guilty. His office should have no authority whatsoever over an election. Whether he gets re-elected or not. Precisely because he has an inherent interest in a specific outcome. You could say the same thing about political parties.

This is a separation of powers problem where we do not have a separate ‘branch’ of government (eg an electoral commission that actually exists in some countries) to deal with this particular type of restraint on office or on the other branches. Not a problem of an individual. Really a continuation of our failure to deal with the first indication of the problem. Washington left office after two terms. Voluntarily. Which set up some angelic notion among Presidents that they would step aside after two terms. Until of course they didn’t. In which event, we ultimately had to change the Constitution.

Now we managed to elect someone who is probably incapable of EVER believing that he would ever lose an election. That’s not really the Presidents fault. It’s our fault. How much damage can a President and Congress (since they could easily cooperate) do to our system of elections in four years? Who gets harmed by that?

Nor is this problem limited to the outcome of a Presidential election. Congressional elections, redistricting/gerrymandering, the rules for elections, the rules that parties create re voter registration and/or participation.

Are we going to change any of this structurally? Of course not. We’ll instead find angels and demons and pretend that that’s the problem.

[TJJ2000]

There are laws on election integrity. The problem is/was law-enforcement turning a blind-eye to all of it. They won't enforce the law nor investigate a claimed fraud. You are right; the worry is about 5-decades too late and it has become a *lawless* partisan war simply because the law-enforcers and legislatures don't care about the LAW anymore. That all started by throwing out and burning the US Constitution over the last 5-decades. The people have continuously elected Al'Capone to office because he promises them free sh*t.

[JFree]

Angels obey laws. Separation of powers and checks and balances doesn’t rely on mere adherence to law.

And btw - you're a complete dingleberry muncher if you think Trump gives a rats shit about law. He's a narcissist to his bones. That is why he can never understand any circumstances believe he can ever lose an election

[TJJ2000]

You’re right on the checks and balances and States that allowed mystery Mail-In voting is just one example of how they dismissed the checks and balances. Claims of suppressing voter rights is also a way they continued eroding the checks and balances.

Speaking of checks and balances; the very validation States used to allow mail-in voting was that it’s results *originally* matched the In-Person vote tendencies. (Pathetic validation; but look it up. That was the reasoning/justification used for it)

Which leads right into Trump seeing his massive In-Person lead get spun into despair by an unbelievable margin of mystery ballots. That is why he didn’t think he lost the election and also why millions of citizens don’t believe it either. Then of course there was the Live TV tabulators deleting Trump vote counts right out in the open and recounts coming back thousands of votes off. But of course the BS excuse of "It wasn't enough to change the results" was used to bypass any investigation into any of that.

[AT]

What law wasn't enforced?

[TJJ2000]

Every single one the governors illegal established by executive fiat. Extending dates, Extending mail-ins, Extending counts, After hours counting ... the list is endless in some states.

[AT]

Can you copy/paste any part of any of those lists?

[soldiermedic76]

The courts have ruled the law wasn't followed in Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Arizona and Georgia. They ruled, multiple times since 2020, that the rule changes done in 2020 broke the state laws and constitution in those states. You obviously chose to ignore the several cases since 2020 that have ruled thus. Gee what do all those states have in common?

[AT]

Sorry, if you don't mind, can you be more specific? Because I'm not aware of any cases that had those kinds of results. Wisconsin, maybe - but not in any way that would have altered election results.

If you're willing - do you have a list (or know where I can find one) that concisely lists the State, Issue Alleged, and Ruling? (Doesn't have to be anything fancy, just like: Wisconsin: "Confined Electors" given access to absentee ballots without ID, Court ruled State couldn't do that.)

[DesigNate]

https://thefederalist.com/2022/07/14/courts-squash-democrats-most-secure-election-lie-swing-states-didnt-follow-their-own-election-laws-in-2020/

Not sure if this will help.

[AT]

It does, thank you.

But, correct me if I'm wrong - both of the examples in the article evidence where these shenanigans were caught and appropriately remedied, no?

Also, this stuck out at me: These changes expanding drop boxes and allowing ballot harvesting drew much ire and complaints in 2020. President Trump and many others criticized drop boxes as being less secure than in-person voting.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is a practice that Trump is endorsing, isn't it?

[DesigNate]

If by appropriately remedied you mean the courts in both states said they violated Election laws and to not let it happen again, then you’d be correct.

Of course your request was for a list of places that violated their own laws in 2020, which I think this article shows re: Wisconsin and Pennsylvania.

Trump, among others (even, gasp, some libertarians) endorse in person voting, especially over random dropbox voting that is essentially unsecure and impossible to appropriately monitor.

[AT]

> Of course your request was for a list of places that violated their own laws in 2020, which I think this article shows re: Wisconsin and Pennsylvania.

And I appreciate that. But if anything, it suggests that the system is clearly working and that potential avenues for fraud are quickly discovered and remedied. I mean, that's how our retributive system of justice works in the first place. The law has to be broken before we can address its breaking.

> Trump, among others (even, gasp, some libertarians) endorse in person voting

Are you sure? I mean, maybe he said that once upon a time because that's what he thought people wanted to hear (something he does A LOT) - but...

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2023/may/4/trump-camp-raising-money-gop-ballot-harvesting-ope/

[DesigNate]

“it suggests that the system is clearly working”

I don’t think states changing their election rules in unconstitutional ways, then waiting years after the election for them to rightly get smacked upside the head, only to have them get a slap on the wrist is the system working, but YMMV.

“Are you sure?”

Maybe he was just saying what people wanted to hear. Maybe, being surrounded by, working with, and voting Democrat for years, he understands that they won’t stop gaming the system as best they can and is willing to play just as dirty. At the end of the day, who really knows.

[R Mac]

Michigan:

https://thefederalist.com/2021/03/17/judge-rules-michigan-secretary-of-state-violated-state-law-with-absentee-ballot-order/

[BigT]

The solution is pretty simple: remove avenues for fraud from elections by requiring every voter to vote in person after presenting reliable ID, and dying their fingers like they did in Iraq.

I’m sure you will object to making elections absolutely secure.

[Mike Laursen]

Don’t see how that completely removes avenues for fraud. The only way would be to do away with secret voting, publishing each person’s vote.

[TrickyVic (old school)]

""Are we going to change any of this structurally? ""

How other than to pass laws? And when laws get ignored then what? Do you go after those who ignore the laws or go after the people they are claiming the laws were ignored?

[Reshufflex]

“Trump's attempt to overturn the 2020 election well deserves punishment from the standpoint of both retribution and deterrence," wrote Somin….”

Beg the question much?

[Mike Laursen]

Seems more like his answering the question straightforwardly with a strong opinion.

[soldiermedic76]

I notice justice or rule of law wasn't mentioned. Retribution was however. Which is not justice.

[A Thinking Mind]

"Trump's attempt to overturn the 2020 election well deserves punishment from the standpoint of both retribution and deterrence," wrote Somin following the four-count indictment filed by Special Counsel Jack Smith in early August.

See, Somin is concluding he's guilty, and that's his starting point for assessing whether Trump should be found guilty. It's more than a bit circular. When you look at his article, he's relying completely on state's evidence and charging documents and assuming those are completely accurate, that the facts contained within those have all relevant context, and that the defense isn't going to be able to contradict anything the prosecution charges.

There's a reason we have trials, though-it's because prosecutors aren't always right, nor are they always honest. Somin is smart enough that he knows this, and yet he continues to conclusively state that Trump is guilty. For example:

Even if Trump did manage to delude himself into believing he had actually won the election, his conduct was still culpable. If I steal your valuable ring because I have persuaded myself (despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary) that I am its true owner, I am still guilty of theft. The same logic applies here.

Trump didn't snatch-and-grab the election. He didn't send the military or the national guard to secure voting mechanisms, he didn't escort in a group of people to be "the electors" and force their votes to be counted. He filed lawsuits. He sought legal remedies, through legal mechanisms like court cases, like a novel legal theory about the Presidential Electors Act. He organized a protest, he spoke to elected officials for redress of grievances.

To use Somin's example, if you absolutely believe someone else has your valuable ring, and you produce a receipt that you think notorizes your ownership, if you call in witnesses who can attest that it's your ring, if you file a lawsuit in an attempt to recover what you believe is your property, none of that is illegal. You might be counter-sued, you might end up having to pay attorney's fees if people decide you filed frivolously, but you don't face criminal consequences. And if you were acting completely in good faith but lose the legal action, you're typically not punished at all beyond your own time and legal expenses.

But if you switch the presumptions around and start with the bedrock belief that Trump is guilty, then there's really not much of a question here, is there?

[Reshufflex]

Precisely. But it’s not just his logical fallacy that is disturbing, though he might want to re-examine his training.
Somin serves up an uglier flaw. His justification for Trump’s “ well deserved” punishment is apparently grounded on it being an appropriate remedy for those trying to overthrow the election-i.e., the electoral process.
Well, if that conduct ( the insurrection-y kind) is the measure by which “well deserved” punishment is to be administered, then Trump is necessarily granted ( via Somin’s proposition) a valid authority as president to act as he did.
Trump was merely trying to restrain various state actors from usurping the electoral process. We can, of course, presuppose their guilt as Somin does Trump’s.

[Mike Laursen]

“Trump was merely trying to restrain various state actors from usurping the electoral process.”

How is that statement not doing precisely the same thing as Somin, but with opposite assumptions.

[Reshufflex]

“ How is that statement not doing…”

Read the succeeding sentence. It reveals the satire, or, let’s say, the absurdity of Somin’s “wife-beating” proposition.

[DesigNate]

Don’t play obtuse.

[Social Justice is neither]

He's not. Never underestimate just how stupid and dishonest leftists like Laurson and Somin can be in service of their glorious revolution.

[Mike Laursen]

You left off your list – Trump threatened Georgia’s Secretary of State in a phone call. – Trump filed a document with information he knew was false.

[TJJ2000]

“he has since been made aware that some of the allegations (and evidence proffered by the experts) has been inaccurate. For him to sign a new verification with that knowledge (and incorporation by reference) would not be accurate.”

The EXPERTS told him!!!! And the Experts are never ever wrong… /s

[DesigNate]

You know we can all read the transcript, right?

What are the documents that HE supposedly filed?

[Finrod]

Even the Washington Post has withdrawn that phony accusation.

[TrickyVic (old school)]

Mike is showing that the phony accusation is doing what it supposed to do. Convince people so they will disagree with the truth when it comes out.

[turco]

I like Somin's views on immigration. But on this he is absolutely , totally wrong. For someone who previously lived in an authoritarian country , mistaking a politically motivated investigation for rule of law is galling. Shame!

[Elmer Fudd the CHUD 2: Steampunk Boogaloo]

He’s just another Marxist shill. I hope he burns along with all the other traitors when enough people wake up to the fact that these people must be dealt with if we are to preserve our constitutional republic.

He chose his side. Let him burn for it.

[TJJ2000]

[Stuck in California]

Pretty sure this asshat removed any validity to any argument he might make when he used the word "retribution."

The law is about justice. It is decidedly not about retribution. If it is, then it most definitely becomes using the government to get revenge on those we don't like, as opposed to enforcing the rule of law.

This guy's pretty obviously an idiot and a democrat shill. Why is reason platforming him again? (and, yes, I know the answer to that question.)

[XM]

The NY indictment is mostly nonsense. Even the NYT admitted that the entire case was based on hazy legal theory. It's strange to hear a "libertarian" accept that case as deterrence.

The GA indictment is equally dubious and even Reason argues that the prosecutor abused RICO charges. I think Trump is potentially in trouble with the Mar a Lago case, but by all indication he kept them as trophies. He apparently told one worker to move boxes - we'll see what comes out of that.

Ross Ulbricht actually broke the law. There's no argument to be made that he doesn't deserve SOME jail time. None of that stopped Reason from championing his cause and calling into question some of the prosecution's tactics. Trump faces decades in prison for something like not properly documenting a hush payment to a porn star. Does this not alarm libertarians? Or do they quietly applaud a political persecution because the target is against open borders?

[BigT]

Reason has few libertarians, only some pretenders.

[Mike Laursen]

Pot, kettle, black.

[Mother's Lament]

"I'm rubber and you're glue"

You sure showed him, Laursen.

[Libertariantranslator]

Terse and true.

[FirstCallElectricians]

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[Uomo Del Ghiaccio]

Listened to the episode with Ilya Somin: Should Libertarians Support the Prosecutions of Trump?

While Ilya Somin may be a brilliant scholar, he is extremely ignorant of reality. He strike me of a person who has extreme hatred of Donald Trump and anyone who dared to vote for him. He is part of the Anti-Trump crowd and it appears that anything that is perceived to hurt Donald Trump or his supporters is fair play.

I have never been a Trump supporter and despise people who make me argue in support of Trump, well in this case argue against the Anti-Trump Conspirators. And yes, there is a active Anti-Trump Conspiracy.

There are far too many coincidences that occur and become a pattern. Trump is being politically indicted through every avenue possible. I'm not going to argue that Trump has not committed wrong or that he is even nice. Personally I despise him, find that he was a mediocre president and has a narcissistic ego and personality.

Trump however has been targeted since he won the Republican primary. Once the corporate media ushered in their preferred candidate for Hillary Clinton to run against the attacks and plotting proceeded with a vengeance. The corporate media and governing elitists underestimated how unpopular and despised Hillary Clinton was by the voters.

Ilya Somin used examples of speech by Trump taken out of context and incomplete that the corporate media used to slander Trump. Clips that have been demonstrated were inaccurate by listening to the entire clip instead of the edited clip that the corporate media promoted. Ilya Somin exposed himself as a Anti-Trump Conspirator by a number of his arguments.

To prosecute Trump vs not prosecuting Trump is the question. Personally I would like Trump to retire as an ex-president. I would also like Anti-Trump Conspirator to be convicted of their crimes. This is the real conspiracy, what Trump is charged with is a stretch and prosecutors are bending over backwards to shoehorn the actions of a classless Trump into a crime.

Anti-Trump Conspirators should not be rewarded because there will be no end to the future attempts to eliminate politicians or citizens who don't fit the elitists in power vision. This is the real danger.

Do you think that a libertarian will be treated any different? After Biden was elected, libertarians were explicitly named and a threat. Biden campaigned that he would unite the country but his notion is to eliminate all opposition.

Trump was a divisive president, although the Anti-Trump Conspirators can be legitimately blamed well over half of the divisiveness. Biden has proved to be even more dangerous and more divisive, although not quite as loud and he enjoys cover from the sycophantic corporate media.

Ilya Somin does not strike me as a libertarian, but rather a liberal mole or perhaps a Fed.

I don't want either Trump nor Biden as president. Both are way too old and divisive. Neither the Republican or Democrat parties have offered a worthy nominee for president for decades.

Voting does matter, but I suggest voting for any third party candidate and never voting for the Republican or Democrat candidate.

To Ilya Somin, please reflect on your motivations and look at reality on the ground, instead of allowing your hatred to make you irrational. As the saying goes... Two wrongs don't make a right.

[Roberta]

I'm wondering by what standard you rate Trump mediocre as president. "Mediocre" is a pejorative word for "average", so are you saying that in the mix of the last 5 or 10 presidents, he was just about the middle of the pack? Who was better? Who was worse?

[Roberta]

Ilya Somin is there because he's on the libertarian side of some things in the Volokh Conspiracy — basically the same free expression issues as Eugene Volokh. He's no agent, but he's made friends on one basis who are over-extending it to others.

[Z Crazy]

What about Brandon?

what about the way he solicitted bribes from Bursima and other foreign countries?

What about the way he aided and comforted the Taliban?

What about the way he colluded with the CIA to lie about the laptop being Russian misinformation?

Should Brandon be prosecuted?

What does Iyla Simon say about that?

[Mike Laursen]

Is it your stance that things Biden has done make things Trump has done OK?

[AT]

It's their stance that, "Biden did bad things, so let's just not talk about Trump's bad things." Which, hilariously, is the same position the leftists take - just vice versa.

[Sevo]

No, TDS-addled steaming pile of shit, it's that Trump did nothing worthy of the charges, while Biden peddled influence his entire time in office.
Further, Trumps was, by measure of limting government and increasing our freedoms, the best POTUS we've had for the last century.
But TDS-addled steaming piles of shit cannot see beyond personality. Perhaps one day, you're achieve the maturity of a 16-YO, but I doubt it.
Fuck off and die, asshole.

[AT]

You realize that TDS is a pro-Trump mentality, right?

This is pretty clear evidence: Trumps was, by measure of limting government and increasing our freedoms, the best POTUS we’ve had for the last century.

LMAO. Riiiight. I hope you appreciate that I am resisting my urge to hit you with the Inigo Montoya meme right now. You're welcome.

Anyway, none of those things are even remotely true, but something tells me your derangement syndrome is going to prevent any substantive conversation on the points. (Like I said before - MAGA is like the transgenders. They can't handle reality. They're so committed to the lie they're living, that they lash out in unhinged vitriol when they're confronted with anything that threatens it.)

Hence why TDS is very throughout a pro-Trump mentality. Yes, granted there are other forms of it (notably, the Kristol-variant) - but by and large, when using the term "TDS" - you're talking about Trump supporters.

[Sevo]

No, as a TDS-addled steaming pile of shit, you don’t know what you are posting about.
Did you see the claim that Trump was the best POTUS for the last century? Care to respond to that, TDS steaming pile of shit?
Oh. and fuck off and die, TDS addled steaming pile of shit.

[AT]

The saddest/funniest thing about you leftists is your brazen lack of self-awareness as you project.

[Sevo]

Seems TDS-addled steaming piles of shit like to lie a lot.

[TJJ2000]

Care to tell us about Biden's De-Regulation committee or how he has demonstrated any restraint of power that is suppose to be enforced by the peoples law over their government (US Constitution)? His very oath of office....

[AT]

This is so par for Team MAGA.

AT: "Tell me the merits of Trump."
MAGA: "Complains about Biden."

[Sevo]

Why do TDS-addled steaming piles of shit lie so much?

[TJJ2000]

Ctrl-F “Tell me the merits of Trump.” = 0 results...

This is so par for Team NAZI.
They just make up sh*t all the time to project everything they do/are onto anyone else they can find.

[AT]

And there's Godwin to round out the conversation.

Nice try, ace. See you next time around. 😉

[DesigNate]

It’s their stance that if you believe in the railroading that he has gotten since mid 2016, you should be outraged that that hasn’t been the standard case for half of DC. Especially if you truly believe in “Both sides”.

And it could definitely be argued he was more libertarian policy friendly than any president since Calvin Coolidge (considering how low that bar is, it’s not saying much). But I’m open to ideas of who you would say would beat him.

[Libertariantranslator]

That is the one area in which looter altruists are consistent. Wrong, yes, idiotic, sure, but they consistently pee on each other like monkeys in adjacent cages.

[Sevo]

"...He strike me of a person who has extreme hatred of Donald Trump and anyone who dared to vote for him...

Known as TDS; not uncommon.

[Libertariantranslator]

Trumpanzee, Dem, looter.

[TrickyVic (old school)]

Brandon goes almost scott free. No one is going to indict a sitting president and by the time he's out of the office he will not be mentally competent to stand trial.

Brandon is clearly in the territory for which the 25th amendment was created. Funny how all those people who talked about the 25th with Trump are not mentioning it now.

[Libertariantranslator]

Sane people are looking for a shedding of looter Kleptocracy prejudices and cowardly usurpations. Since 1972 voters have had the option of going on record AGAINST promiscuous coercion by deadly force. Dazed and bewildered looters stagger in here all the time. Invariable they seek sympathy because the OTHER disgusting looters just tossed them out. All libertarians have to offer is laughter and schadenfreude. We vote. You lose. We happy with that change for now.

[YuckFou]

Libertarians would have to be libtards to think that the charges against Trump are just. That would be "libertarian" and "retard" as opposed to "liberal" and "retard".

Libtards seem to forget that it wasn't until summer 2021 that we understood how Zuckerberg's $400+ million harvest mail-in ballots. So YES, the 2020 election was creepy. How the hell can electing an obvious dementia patient, hiding in his basement, not raise some suspicions? What kind if f'ing idiot do you have to be to think that was normal?

Skinny jeans and beards won't raise your IQ if you think Joe Biden was the better candidate.

[AT]

"Better candidate?"

This was the whole problem with 2020 (and 2016, and 2012, and 2008, and 2004...). There were no better candidates - at least, not that had a shot at winning when this electorate is so obsessed with some binary partisan "not the other guy" approach to their elected representation.

Trump was not a better choice than Biden. Biden was not a better choice than Trump. Same goes for Trump/Hillary, Romney/Obama, McCain/Obama, Kerry/Bush.

And when you see that, election after election after election - you have to start asking yourself: are the Republicans and Democrats working hand-in-glove for their own sake, as an aristocrat class, rather than ours? When you get a choice between Trash and Garbage, are you really getting a choice?

The whole reason I don't even care about the charges against Trump is because the whole damned government has been a sham in the first place. For decades. Reality TV for us to obsess over while the government continues to run amok with zero oversight/accountability, and keeping anyone who might actually upend the status quo (Cruz, DeSantis, Bernie, etc.) at bay.

If anyone thinks anything terrible is going to happen to Trump (or Biden, both Joe and Hunter), then they're idiots - because the elitists always protect their own. And, just like 2016, they'll ensure that one of theirs gets elected to keep up the sham of representative government.

I refuse, at this point, to take seriously anyone who takes seriously clowns like Trump or Biden. Those aren't serious people. Those are fools, asleep at the wheel, who want a benevolent dictatorship that promises continued bread and circuses.

[Sevo]

"...I refuse, at this point, to take seriously anyone who takes seriously clowns like Trump or Biden...."

One of these is not like the other, but TDS-addled shit-piles are entirely too stupid to notice. Fuck off and diem,asshole.

[AT]

You know what the difference between the 44th and 45th president was?

One was smug, petty, thin-skinned, vindictive, constantly fomented partisan hatred, constantly played this "us vs them" game (and played the victim every time), and made it clear that he was only representing the half of America that liked him while the rest could go to hell, believing himself (or at least acting like) a benevolent dictator that would just ignore the Legislature - the branch closest to We The People - to do whatever the heck he wanted with a phone and a pen.

The other was also a black guy.

[Sevo]

Wanna know the difference between an intelligent human and a TDS-addled steaming pile of shit is?
You are the TDS-addled steaming pile of shit.
Fuck off and die, asshole.

[AT]

What about anything I've said to date makes you think I'm a Trump supporter???

[Sevo]

Does that pass as clever repartee among TDS-addled piles of shit?

[AT]

No. You accused me of TDS. I'm telling you - repeatedly - I am NOT a Trump supporter. TDS is a mind-virus among his SUPPORTERS.

[TJJ2000]

Trump derangement syndrome (TDS) is a pejorative term, usually for criticism or negative reactions to former United States president Donald Trump that are irrational, and presumed to have little regard towards Trump's actual policy positions, or actions undertaken by his administration.

[AT]

That's not accurate.

Trump derangement syndrome (TDS) is a pejorative term, usually for support or positive reactions to "the rightful" United States president Donald Trump that are irrational, and presumed to have little regard towards Trump’s actual policy positions, or actions undertaken by his administration.

You might be referring to some weird minority variant (the Kristol variant, for example) - but TDS is most commonly known as a pro-Trump mind-virus.

[Sevo]

"You know what the difference between the 44th and 45th president was?"

Yeah, the 44th was among the worst, the 45th was the best we had since Silent Cal. And AI assholes like you have no way of dealing with that fact.

[AT]

They were the exact same president. And now both guys are running again for Barack's FIFTH term.

Why would you support that? Do you just plain hate America?

[Sevo]

"They were the exact same president. And now both guys are running again for Barack’s FIFTH term."

TDS-addled steaming piles of shit seem to lie a lot.

[Libertariantranslator]

The sockpuppet must be watching reruns of tapes of the Wholly Bauble stories with the Obama look-alike playing the cloven-hooved Devil. Is there a better representative of the blinding dementia brought on by total immersion in mystical superstition?

[AT]

How about the difference between Trump and Hillary?

The first is a lifelong liberal Democrat and New York aristocrat, close to Bill Clinton, who enjoyed a career-long benefit of the DC graft and has been playing in that swamp exclusively for self-enrichment while engaging in highly questionable likely illegal activities but enjoying the privilege of the elitist class to avoid any accountability or consequence for them who sincerely seems to believe that they're entitled at this point to be the President.

The other also wears ugly pantsuits.

This is fun. Should we do Joey Senility too?

[Sevo]

"How about the difference between Trump and Hillary?"

Why do TDS addled shit piles like you make it so easy? Perhaps because intelligence is not one of your skills.
HRC sold political access as a sitting SoS. HRC arranged the fake 'investigation' resulting in the claim of Russian intervention in the '16 election.
And Trump was the best POTUS we've had in a century.
And fucking lefty imbeciles like you keep hoping others will be as stupid as you.
Fuck off and die, shit pile.

[Sevo]

Oh, and HRC worked to bypass the FOIA with that bathroom closet server; I'm sure you'd know about that if you weren't AI
Fuck off and die, asshole.

[AT]

And when it came time to investigate/prosecute her, her bestest best buddy Donald was like, "Nah, she went through a lot."

Birds of a feather.

[Sevo]

"And when it came time to investigate/prosecute her, her bestest best buddy Donald was like, “Nah, she went through a lot.”..."

TDS-addled steaming piles of shit also lie a lot.

[AT]

You realize that actually happened, right?

[Sevo]

BTW, isn't it strange (no it isn't) that any article regarding the witch hunt for Trump attracts newby TDS-addled lefty piles of shit like AT?
No, it's not at all. The TDS-addled assholes (of which AT is just an example) have arranged searches to find any posting of which this might be an example.
Note AT does not address any of my comments directly; AI by grouped TDS addled assholes?

[AT]

Again, you seem to be misusing the term TDS.

And are providing a pretty clear example of it.

And, feel free to peruse the Latest articles. I've participated in many than just the silly clickbait ones which address the least important subject facing our nation today.

[Sevo]

"Again, you seem to be misusing the term TDS..."

TDS-addled steaming piles of shit rarely recognize their affliction, TDS-addled steaming pile of shit.

[Libertariantranslator]

Another one-dementional looter unaware of the existence of the Libertarian party. I guess this is the only forum they can butt into and not be tossed by the bouncers. Just muted by subscribers.

[TJJ2000]

Hey lets all play a game called; Ignorant that Trump upset the RINO base. You talk about the establishment yet play completely stupid that the very reason Trump has support is that very few times did he ever bow-down to the establishment. Yes; Rand Paul or Thomas Masse could've been better but you're playing the not-perfect is unacceptable BS just to ditch on Trump. As Sevo points out so bluntly. U have TDS.

[Roberta]

Trump was the major one who represented the revolt against the establishment you decry.

[Libertariantranslator]

Decry? We learned to vote instead as of 1972. Ever since then it's looter collectivists that have been crying, whining, moaning, carpetbiting and decrying. Canadian conservatives to not set out to enslave women, and therefore are seldom tripped up by that dountry's Libertarian party. Observe. Learn! Shorten your nationalsocialist platform!

[YuckFou]

I can only assume you are a bot because I don't believe a human can be that stupid.

Nothing was better proof of Trump's superiority than the first 6 months of Biden's reign. If you are too stupid to remember then you are too stupid to converse with. Seriously, this isn't a matter of opinion - it is a matter of fact.

[YuckFou]

Don't you have to be a certain age to post here? Or at least a decent bot?

It only took Biden 6+ months to demonstrate to the world the superiority of Trump.

[Sevo]

"...Should Libertarians Support the Prosecutions of Trump?..."

You bet! "Libertarians for a witch-hunt" led by noted TDS-addled shit Ilya Somin.

[Reshufflex]

Lol.

[Liberty Lover]

Hillary Clinton, while not the head of state but the loser in a Presidential election, did the same thing with here fake intelligence initiating a bloodless coup attempt to overthrow the sitting president of the US with a fake impeachment and senate trial. Her seditious conspiracy also included FBI agents, heads of the DNC, and at the least Adam Schiff in Congress as their are records he was in a meeting there the fake intelligence was exposed, and still went ahead with the impeachment. (I also suspect Pelosi and Schumer at the least were in on it)
When will they all be charged and convicted?

[TJJ2000]

Republicans don’t play the partisan war games. Democrats do. Precisely because the left doesn’t believe in a USA (defined by the US Constitution focused on Liberty and Justice for all - individualism).

The left only believes in a [Na]tional So[zi]alist Regime take-over of the USA that they think their [WE] mobsters RULE (gang wars of pure 'democracy') will make happen because they promise consistently to make legal gov-gun armed-theft from those 'icky' USA patriots for their [WE] criminal voters. Completely ignorant about the fact that ‘guns’ don’t make sh*t and eventually they will run out of things to steal while destroying the entire nation.

[Michael Ejercito]

Very great point.

[Libertariantranslator]

Pardon my schadenfreude while I chuckle at the karmic spectacle of Don Trumpanzee being caged. I also laughed when the Hillary Dems whined and begged electors to let THEM keep shooting and throwing kids in jail over leaves. And I HAD to laugh at Gary's 4 million votes coasting the Grabbers of Pussy the popular vote and the commie Dems the electoral college count. Libertarian spoiler votes are a punch in the gut to both factions of The Looter Cleptocracy, and the only thing that gets their idiot laws repealed. A pox on their hice.

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[Archangel America]

In a recent Pew Research poll it found that after three years of constant propaganda 33% of voters still know that 2020 was a totally fraudulent election. Regardless, of what the media repeats like a broken record, there was plenty of evidence to overturn the election, but the courts had "No Remedy" as they lacked to authority to order another general election.

That was the finding of the several State courts... "No Remedy", which the media reported to the public as "The Court rejected Trump's baseless allegations".

Still, 33% of us know what really happened, and why.

[Libertariantranslator]

WHOA! The Christian National Socialist rhetoric is strong in this little one. Now that the Holy Book of Adolf Hitler by James Larratt Battersby is no longer an Orwellian secret, but a Google Book, its readership increases. Yet for some reason the converts come here to whine. The LP since 1972 has been the opposition to the national and international socialist binary monofilament unidimensional. Your screeching is music, your tears, nectar. All we need is 2% of the vote to jam into the spokes of both factions. The LP will help your nazi infiltrators make you lose till you let go of communo-fascist usurpations. Capiche?

[Ladyhawk]

I listened as far as Ilya's biased remarks about Trump's post-election phone call to Georgia. There is no evidence whatsoever that Trump wanted anyone to create 11,000 new votes out of thin air. He knew that Biden supporters had fiddled with the vote count and he knew he had more votes than the overseers said he had. He wanted his legitimate votes, and that is all. I am utterly DONE with so-called libertarians, or anyone else, who refuse to see what Trump did, what he meant , and with anyone who will promote the most negative interpretation of his actions. He deserves the benefit of every doubt BECAUSE he is innocent until proven guilty, Mr Somin.

[Libertariantranslator]

Gosh... I'm gonna MISS that blind, brainwashed, mystical Trumpanzee female impersonator! Fake vote counts is ALL libertarian voters have ever seen from the get-go in 1972. In TX, 1980s TV coverage routinely mentioned only the two looter factions and glossed their totals even in races where the libertarian candidate had 20% of the vote!

[Libertariantranslator]

A more apropos question is: Why should Libertarians experience anything but schadenfreude as BOTH halves of The looter Kleptocracy gnaw at each others' throats? Liz Cheney, in condemning Orange Hitler, could not pass up the opportunity to again chant "both parties." It's as if by broken record repetition they could slip into an aletrnate reality where Nixon's 1971 looter subsidies actually made the LP fade out of existence. In reality, the LP vote count increased 4000% by 1976--before the first platform betrayal of women voters.

[NOYB2]

Libertarians should insist on closing public universities like George Mason University, and libertarians should stop donating money to institutions advocating authoritarian globalism like the Cato institute.

[Religion and Politics, my life]

SO in effect I should do what you tell me to do, is that the message.
I do what I do now in regard to those institutions because of my mind and will and conscience and I should stop and follow a complete muddy directive about bullshit "authoritarian globalism". Maybe non-authoritarian globalism or maybe authoritarian semi-globalism would be good, huh.
Silly, get a job

[Religion and Politics, my life]

This is illustrates the pure disease of Libertarians: I MUST have an opinion on everything. My kids are doing terribly in school, crime is bad, basic decency is down and : I have to have an opinion about court proceedings of an ex-public official.

I had a friend once who doesn't really like musice but he got in an argument about the Stones vs the Beatles. Why? Because you have to have an opinion about every damn thing

[NOYB2]

"Trump's attempt to overturn the 2020 election well deserves punishment from the standpoint of both retribution and deterrence," wrote Somin

Somin is a totalitarian a--hole.

[LIBertrans]

Romania got rid of girl-bullier Ceausescu.

[Wally]

All for Donald Trump trials. Right after Obama is prosecuted for using state power against his political rival, numerous people in the FBI are prosecuted for silencing the Hunter laptop story, the 51 intelligence officers that claimed it was Russian disinformation are investigated and tried for treason, and sure let's add Hillary Clinton's handling of classified documents and obstruction of justice. When those trials are concluded, let's have a thorough investigation of the Federal Government that colluded with his attempted assassin. No way anyone is dumb enough to believe the secret service is leaving that rooftop open without being told.

After all that, I would believe justice might be done in a DJT trial. Until then, it's just Communists being Communists.

[MWAocdoc]

So Somin is partially wrong. Trump's actions may have been reprehensible and some of them may have violated one or more of the uncountable number somewhere north of 4,000 Federal laws and regulations. And some of them may even have been violations of one or more of the Federal laws that are actually Constitutional and that should actually be Federal crimes in any Constitutional Republic. But he is wrong that the way the Democrats went about orchestrating the charges and conducted the trials was appropriate in this situation. In fact the whole thing stinks to high heaven and undermines the rule of law by weaponizing due process.