Why We Can't Get Anywhere on Immigration

Turns out, building good systems is necessary to get good outcomes.


Matt Welch, Katherine Mangu-Ward, Peter Suderman, and Nick Gillespie evaluate the border crisis and current state of immigration on this Monday's Reason Roundtable.

Discussed in the show:

00:02: Immigration crisis at the border: What is happening and what are we doing about it?

39:27: Weekly Listener Question: Where do you get your news?

00:45: California's recall process: any takeaways?

51:34: Media recommendations for the week.

This week's links:

Send your questions to Be sure to include your social media handle and the correct pronunciation of your name.

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Audio production by Ian Keyser
Assistant production by Regan Taylor
Music: "Angeline," by The Brothers Steve

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  3. Why We Can’t Get Anywhere on Immigration

    Is that supposed to be a pun? Because a lot of people seem have no problem getting from an island on the other side of the Gulf of Mexico 400 miles inland to Del Rio. Almost like Mexico is conspiring with other governments to get rid of them.

  4. Crafting a logical immigration policy sounds like work Americans are longer willing to do.

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  5. Biden completely failed on immigration, and also everything else. He’s a vegetable, and his admin is just far left wanks who know nothing except how to use Twitter.

    1. The only thing they have been able to fix, was an election.

  6. FUCK BIDEN!!!



    Can people act like adults now that that’s out of the way?

    1. Someone’s hitting the bottle hard again.

    2. I kind of understand your frustration,
      Trump skated for years without any criticism. And the most popular president in American history gets criticized all the time! Sad!

    3. What is hilarious is you just earlier in the bio thread called someone conservative for just disagreeing with you. You also in the morning said anybody attacking democrats is a conservative. Yet you cry like a bitch when someone calls you a leftist for doing this retarded shit.

      1. He’s just trying to cope with his terrible new boyfriend he voted for.

        1. Or is he trying to organize a cook out with Mike and jeff? Hope they like burned steaks.

          1. I’m sure they enjoy each other’s company,

      2. No one believes you are accurately restating the prior conversation.

        1. Jeffrey dear, I stated what both threads were shit weasel.

          1. No one believes you are accurately restating the prior conversation.

            1. He is.

              You and sarc are lying sacks of shit.

  7. The reason we don’t have a better immigration system is because there isn’t enough public support for one, and the reason there isn’t enough public support is because when immigration is sold to the American people, it’s generally sold in terms of charity case for pathetic victims or it’s sold with utter contempt towards average Americans who oppose having a better immigration system. You’re not convincing very many people to change their minds with an appeal based on that.

    1. The primary reason is the welfare state. On Sweden and nordic countries in general they had a large welfare state and support while the country was homogenous. As the country has imported more migrants on welfare, support for those programs drops dramatically.

      The entire immigration debate can be tied to the welfare state arguments. When Bush advocated for seasonal visas in 2006 the left revolted with Obama being the killing vote on the reform. Largely because it excluded migrants from welfare and citizenship.

      1. The “welfare state” argument is mostly a lie, however. Immigrants are barred from most welfare. The vast majority of welfare that immigrants receive are (1) school lunches for kids in public school, (2) Medicaid for medical emergencies ONLY, and basic things like immunizations, and (3) EITC, for which a person has to EARN A WAGE in order to qualify. There are not vast numbers of immigrants living in Section 8 housing or on TANF food stamps. Now, some STATES may grant welfare benefits to immigrants (e.g. California), but that is what the people of that state have chosen (more or less).

        So what is your proposed solution then?

        1. Can you go one sentence without showing yourself to be fucking retarded? It isnt a lie. It is easily verifiable if you weren’t a brain dead socialist.

          1. So verify it. Show us that there are vast numbers of immigrants getting all this welfare that I didn’t point out above. Where are they?

            The fact of the matter is, Team Red falls for this trope that immigrants are lazy welfare leeches that is not supported by the data.

            1. Show us that it is not supported by the data …

            2. The welfare argument is like the disease carrier argument. Both are regularly tossed out in discussion, neither have any data for support. The welfare argument usually ends up as the children get to attend our schools. The fact is that a large number of charitable agencies and religious groups have and likely will continue to help immigrants. These are private charities, not the government. The immigrant themselves want to work. Even in low wage jobs the immigrant is better paid and less exploited than they are in their home country.

        2. I’m grateful the United States let my dirt-poor Danish grandfather in the country, and I’d like to do the same favor for others who want to immigrate here. This used to be a common sentiment among Americans — when the f did they get to be such self-centered asshats.

    2. Add onto it the game theory of certain elites who understand that if they “fixed” immigration, the respective bases of Team Blue and Team Red support would very likely move on to wanting them to solve some other problem.

      Reagan granting amnesty removed immigration from the debate for roughly 15 years. But it is has been a wedge issue every year since 2004 because each party- even when in complete control of the government- strangely can never act on it.

      1. Reagan didn’t end the argument since democrats refused to increase security as they had agreed to in exchange for amnesty. Many of the agreements like exit visa tracking remain unfulfilled to this day. This has caused a hardening of the debate with many on the right requiring security first before agreements to changes on immigration. But the left knows they suckered the right once, and won’t agree to do security first hoping to sucker them again.

      2. It’s been a big wedge issue at least since Prop 187 in 1994.

        Democrats don’t want to talk about taxes and spending, so they talk about abortion and immigration.

        It’s the same thing in corporate America. Apple doesn’t want to talk about sweat shops or they their relationship with the Chinese government, so they talk about gay marriage and global warming instead.

        Their hand-waving is meant to distract us.

        1. I keep trying to point out that it is a wedge issue only through the agreement of Team Blue *and* Team Red.

          We are in a knife fight with the Elites for control of this country. To the extent that a majority of the elites- including those in power- are Leftists, it is easy to confuse “Elites” with the Left. But there are elites on the right- the National Review crew who never met a Bush law policy they didn’t cheet on- and the Romneyites.

          I know Ken, that you would like to constantly cast this as a faustian choice between the right and left, but at some point the only way to win is not to play their game. If that Patriots and Packers play in the Super Bowl, the winner gets a payday, but the loser still gets a paycheck. None of them will buck that system if- even in loss- their bread is still buttered. This is why the GOP will always ultimately roll over for the Left. They know where their bread is buttered, and it is as cogs in a perpetually growing leviathan. It is why Afghanistan continued through 20 years of bipartisan leadership. It is why Epstein and Nassar continued to diddle little girls under the air cover of the FBI under bipartisan administrations.

          I get why you turn to the GOP as the lesser weevil. But in the end, there needs to be another game plan, or you are just delaying the inevitable.

          1. “We are in a knife fight with the Elites for control of this country. To the extent that a majority of the elites- including those in power- are Leftists, it is easy to confuse “Elites” with the Left. But there are elites on the right- the National Review crew who never met a Bush law policy they didn’t cheet on- and the Romneyites.”

            “I get why you turn to the GOP as the lesser weevil. But in the end, there needs to be another game plan, or you are just delaying the inevitable.”

            Great, couldn’t agree more. What’s the proposed path out? French Revolution-style murder of the elite class? (Rough WAG, It’d take about 15,000 or more in just the US alone at this point, and that’s not counting the 2 order of magnitude larger drone class that depends on things continuing the way the 15k want it.)

            Giving the keys to the 5-10 not-completely-worthless people in Congress? Hell, when I read The Mote In God’s Eye, I was thinking, “Monarchy? What?! In the future of Man?”, but I could see several advantages to an absolute, hereditary monarch over our current path. For one, the Monarch might not be so quick as our leaders to have sold off this country piecemeal for the last 30 years plus. A Monarch wants something to give her children. Not to just make it through the next election until retirement.

            To steal from P.J. O’Rourke: I like the idea of burning down the shithouses that are D.C. and the Coastal Elite bubble. But we also need an idea for installing some plumbing to take their place.

            1. The first step is in stopping the reflexive Team Red vs Team Blue support, and becoming true independents. The sad game theory of this political system is that the Right never has to work for, say, Jesse’s vote. They are working for the independent.

              If you look at the past 20 years, you basically see that the left has shifted the debate from basic things like “Should we have a Department of Education” to, “How much more money should the federal government give to education.”

              The only hope then is to help convince people in the center that the preferable alternative is not “less evil than the Dems” but less evil overall.

              1. “The first step is in stopping the reflexive Team Red vs Team Blue support, and becoming true independents.”

                Unfortunately, independents aren’t organized, and in an environment like ours where both, the electorate has been polarized far more than in the past 40 years, and yet the electorate has cleverly decided to cede a great deal of power to government, being unorganized only means that both sets of united people get to prey upon you. They aren’t going to court you, but rather, coerce you.

                Going Galt isn’t going to work. For one thing, there’s nowhere left to run.

        2. “Democrats don’t want to talk about taxes and spending, so they talk about abortion and immigration.”

          Yes, and also Republicans don’t want to talk about a myriad of issues, so they talk about abortion and immigration, and wave flags and Bibles around.

    3. Okay Ken. So what is your persuasive argument to the masses for reforming the immigration system? Let’s hear it.

      1. Perfect solution fallacy from Jeff?? You don’t say. Nothing but sophistry

        1. Do you even know what “perfect solution fallacy” is? This isn’t it. But, you do continue your habit of attacking whatever I write.

      2. It is interesting that you attack Ken specifically. Why is that?

        1. It’s not an attack. It’s a challenge. Ken has made this argument many times that while he supports immigration reform, he doesn’t want it imposed on people. Okay fair enough. So how would he persuade people to adopt reforms to immigration? Ken like many people is long on criticism but short on ideas.

          1. Arrf! Arrf Arf! ARRf!

            Keep barking, little sealion.

        2. Because Ken effectively shows how wrong, misguided, and deceptive their ilk are.

  8. So we “can’t get anywhere” on immigration, eh? Guys, MUST you pun about such a moving topic????

  9. In the most difficult, complicated moments, it is good to receive the warmth of those who love you because it ends up being a spectacular incentive to move forward.

  10. Incidentally, the Biden administration is making an example of Haitians by sending them back en masse–because the Biden administration doesn’t want thousands of Haitians to come here.

    “U.S. officials are deporting the Haitians under a public-health authority known as Title 42, which the administration says allows it to rapidly expel migrants at the border to help prevent the spread of Covid-19 in the U.S.

    A federal judge ruled last week that the Biden administration couldn’t use the public-health power to expel families traveling with children, but paused the effect of his decision for two weeks. The administration has appealed.

    Administration officials said the flights were necessary to break a cycle of Haitian citizens migrating to the U.S. They said they hoped that once deported citizens land in Haiti, word of their arrival would spread quickly through social media and deter more from attempting to enter the U.S., according to people familiar with their thinking.

    The U.S. deported a total of 895 people to Haiti in the fiscal year ended September of 2020 and 690 in the year before that.


    The Biden administration is doing the same thing the Trump administration would–and they’re doing it for the same reasons.

    1. About 16,000 Haitians showed up over the last two weeks, and they’re the vanguard. There are surely more on the way. Biden is using whatever rationale is available to keep them out. If it weren’t for Covid, he’d claim it was about global warming. The end result is, the Biden administration is throwing them out as fast as they can.

      The Biden administration is objectively very racist.

      1. That last line came out of nowhere as a total non-sequitir. Gosh, that isn’t very logical.

    2. Again, the Haitians under the bridge are 400 miles inland at the Del Rio crossing in an attempt to circumvent the automatic deportation that accompanies arrival by boat (otherwise, Puerto Rico is the closest nation other than the DR). I seriously doubt that refugees are paying for an Uber ride across Mexico. I doubt they are even arriving in Mexico, as it is the country furthest away from Haiti on the entire Gulf coast. They are being assisted by multiple governments to be foisted upon the US at a land crossing. Does that seem reasonable to anyone?

      1. I’ve read that Cuban refugees have long traveled to the U.S. through Mexico to avoid the Coast Guard, and it wouldn’t surprise me if Haitian refugees are doing the same thing for the same reasons.

        “Since the late-1980s immigration patterns changed. Many Cuban immigrants departed from the southern and western coasts of Cuba and arrived at the Yucatán Peninsula in Mexico; many landed on Isla Mujeres. From there Cuban immigrants traveled to the Texas–Mexico border and found asylum. Many of the Cubans who did not have family in Miami settled in Houston.[5] The term “dusty foot” refers to Cubans immigrating to the U.S. through Mexico.”,_dry_feet_policy#Changes_in_immigration_patterns

        The Wall Street Journal article said that a lot of Haitians are coming to the U.S. from other parts of South America. Some of the Haitians they’re sending back to Haiti haven’t been in Haiti for many years. They migrated to Brazil or elsewhere in South America, and they made their way to the U.S. border because they thought Biden would make it easier for them to be in the U.S.

        Meanwhile, as the quote in my comment above makes clear, the Biden administration is sending these people back to Haiti with great fanfare in an attempt to actively discourage them from thinking that the Biden administration will tolerate them in the U.S. American progressives aren’t smart enough to change their minds about the nature of the Biden administration based on their behavior, but the Biden administration apparently has more faith in the people of Haiti to put two and two together.

    3. They’re sending back (some of) the MAMs and a few families. A whole lot of other Haitians are going to be let in with a notice to appear. Which I’m sure they’ll show up for.

  11. Because chaos is what they want.

    1. “Never let a crisis go to waste.”

    2. “Because chaos is what they want.”

      This guy gets it. Though I don’t see how chaos in immigration achieves their goals, versus chaos in public safety.

      We also need to start coming to an agreement on just who the “they” are.

  12. We can’t get anywhere on immigration because the two sides define the problem that needs solving differently. One side sees the problem as one of figuring out how to maximize access to the U.S. for would-be immigrants and the other see the problem as preventing native populations from being swamped (especially economically) by low-wage competitors. As long as either side sees “getting somewhere” on the issue resolving the problem as they define it with no consideration to the problem the other side sees, they aren’t going to have much luck getting the other side to go away.

    1. It is not just maximizing access to the US but also the social welfare systems. What else would all Democrats running for President coming out in support of free healthcare for illegal aliens be?

      You can put together coherent changes to our immigration law but it’s all meaningless as long as one side is completely unmoored from reality.

  13. “Their countries are falling apart”…………. So importing people that drive their countries to falling apart is now totes great????!!!???

    And that’s were the vetting needs to take top priority. Inviting invasion by treasonous “conquer and consume” mentality isn’t going to do anything but cause the USA to be conquered and consumed.

    As someone else says; import Non-American; get Non-America. We’ve already got too many arrogant ignorant folds pretending the USA is a Nazi-Camp instead of having a U.S. Constitution for Individual Liberty and Justice.

  14. What is this “building good systems is necessary to get good outcomes” shit? We have no systems now and the Democrats are perfectly happy with the outcomes. Why fix something that ain’t broke?

    1. You need to break things to fix them!

    2. The Reason staff has not been for “building good systems”. They have been for undermining whatever system exists unless it is de facto unrestricted immigration.

      1. Can anyone dispute a billionaire?

  15. Both parties have this wrong. Democrats want to fling the border wide open and reward people for breaking our laws.

    Whilst republicans want to keep everyone out(especially those brown people) Whether Illegal or Legal.

    LEGAL immigration should be easier and ILLEGAL immigration should be harder.

    1. I agree with your conclusion, particularly since if legal immigration were made easier, illegal immigration would slow to a trickle on its own as there would be no need to sneak in illegally at that point.

      But your caricatures are wrong. Democrats don’t want to fling the borders wide open. At best they are just Republican on immigration, who don’t say mean words in public about immigrants. But they are just as willing to deport the ‘invaders’ as Republicans are. And Republicans don’t want to keep *everyone* out.

      1. “But they are just as willing to deport the ‘invaders’ as Republicans are.”

        Nearly every immigration reform proposal by democrats is essentially about just legalizing Illegal Immigrants. Very little of it has anything to do with making Legal immigration easier.

        “And Republicans don’t want to keep *everyone* out.”

        Last CPAC a speaker literally got a standing ovation for saying that Legal Immigrants are as bad as Illegal ones.

      2. The facts on the ground and the last eight months of immigrants let into the interior prove you are wrong.

        Really do you honestly think you can “both sides” this one, fatty?

        Persuasion works but you are bad at it.

  16. Because immigration proponents don’t care what Americans want. They think they can name-call us into agreement or submission.

    Every country in the world sets immigration policy for the benefit of the country’s citizens, but if Americans want to do the same then we get name-called and told we’re undeserving of any input into how our country is governed.

    But open borders isn’t a majority position. So you end up with a minority telling a majority (or at least a plurality) that they should have no say in their own government’s policy. That’s not how decisions or policy are made. So no decisions get made, nor does any long term policy.

    1. “Because immigration proponents don’t care what Americans want.”

      Maybe instead, Immigration proponents simply have a different idea of what would be good for America.

      1. Their different idea is no more America. Go fuck yourself, fat shit.

  17. Turns out, building good systems is necessary to get good outcomes.

    Spoken like a dyed in the wool progressive and central planner.

    Turns out that actual libertarians don’t believe in “building systems” (good or otherwise), but instead free markets and voluntary cooperation.

  18. “Turns out, building good systems is necessary to get good outcomes”

    You mean like a Wall system so that hundreds of thousands of immigrants can’t easily cross the border and become our problem? That would have been a good first step to a good system – too bad some or most at Reason were opposed to such a simple fucking thing. And FYI, if Reason was genuinely wondering if immigrants en masse would take advantage of a weak border, I think you got your fucking answer this year.

    1. A physical wall is just a big waste of money.

  19. When it comes to immigration, you guys are the corporeal personification of why i’m almost too embarassed to describe myself as libertarian. “We need immigration for service sector jobs, like restaurants!” Have you not noticed that banda has been playing in the kitchen of 80% of the restaurants you go to for 10+ years? You think everyone one of those guys back there is here legally? You ever go through a construction site and listen to what languages are spoken? Ur fucking embarassing. Listening to you feels like you’re mostly prep kids who went straight to college and never had to scrap for anything or legitimately compete for a job to make ends meet. At this point we need to let this shit collapse, not continue to import foreign labor while the natural populace refuses to replace itself.
    Fucking embarassing.

    1. Additionally, the whole idea that the woman would consider it a moral wrong to turn away somebody who came to our country after taking a boat to the west (Mexico) and then travelling north to the States from their shithole country (Haiti) and thus she personally wouldn’t turn them away, at the same time saying that its nonsensical to reduce immigration to the “well let them come live with you then” idea. Put your money where your mouth is, woman. You think its the right thing to do, but you won’t do it. What do you think they’re doing when they come here? This is a home we all share, and YOU have the option to shelter them, but would rather it be collective. YOU take the fighting age men into your house with your husband and your sons and daughters, and you bear the responsibility if that turns out poorly. Fucking embarassing that you play individualism from the middle and don’t suffer the consequences of it. Move down to Juarez (or fucking Pueblo or Durango) and tell me its not the foreigners rekking the place. The other problem is black violence, when it comes to violence in this country, but what the fuck would I know anyways.

      I’ll keep listening because its important to be acquainted with other viewpoints, but fucks sake, buncha pylons.

      1. One more thing! “Does this look like open borders! They’re flying hundreds and thousands of people back to Haiti!”
        We literally have Two Hundred Thousand people a month coming into the country illegally, for 8 months now. If your ass leaked like that, you’d be in diapers 24/7

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