Why Can't Anyone Get Their Immigration Facts Straight?: Podcast

The president and his detractors both bungle scare stories in the outrage-politics contest that passes for our immigration policy debate.

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Why Can't Anyone Get Their Immigration Facts Straight?: Podcast

President Donald Trump can barely open his mouth about immigration without getting something heinously wrong. Attorney General Jeff Sessions can barely open his mouth about immigration without getting something heinously wrong. And too many of the people opposing this administration's immigration policies have a hard time doing so without themselves getting a bunch of stuff heinously wrong. Is this any way to tackle the admittedly difficult and always emotional policy issue of what to do about foreign nationals who seek to visit, work in, and/or move to this country?

On today's editor-roundtable edition of the Reason Podcast, Katherine Mangu-Ward, Nick Gillespie, Peter Suderman, and yours truly talk about how bad faith makes bad immigration policy, and also about the NFL/national anthem kerfuffle, Europe's awful General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR), and—by request!—our special summer-reading recommendations (which you can find below the podcast):

Subscribe, rate, and review our podcast at iTunes. Listen at SoundCloud below:

Audio production by Ian Keyser.

'XXV' by Broke For Free is licensed under CC-BY-NC-ND 4.0

Relevant links from the show:

"What It Means That ICE 'Lost' 1,500 Refugee Children," by Elizabeth Nolan Brown

"Government Has 'Lost' 1,475 Unaccompanied Minors It Apprehended at the U.S. Border," by Nick Gillespie

"Lies About Chain Migration Are Donald Trump's 'Welfare Queen,' a Tall Tale To Comfort the Base," by Nick Gillespie

"Jeff Sessions' Immigration Lies," by Matt Welch

"NFL's National Anthem Policy Exposes Free Speech Hypocrisy of Right, Left, and Trump," by Robby Soave

"NFL Players WILL Respect the Flag's Authoritah, Says Commissioner," by Matt Welch

"The End of Free Speech," by Katherine Mangu-Ward

"Europe's New Data Privacy Rules Will Make Facebook and Google More Powerful," by Andrea O'Sullivan

"Chicago Is Trying to Pay Down Its Debt by Impounding Innocent People's Cars," by C.J. Ciaramella

"Philip Roth, RIP" by Nick Gillespie

Special summer reading recommendations:

How to Change Your Mind: What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence, by Michael Pollan

2312, by Kim Stanley Robinson

The Gone-Away World, by Nick Harkaway

The Witch Elm: A Novel, by Tana French

Broken Harbor, by Tana French

Session Cocktails: Low-Alcohol Drinks for Any Occasion, by Drew Lazor and the editors of Punch

Blandings Castle Series, by P.G. Wodehouse

Bad Citizen Corporation: A Greg Salem Mystery, by S.W. Lauden

HHhH: A Novel, by Laurent Binet

Don't miss a single Reason Podcast! (Archive here.)

Subscribe at iTunes.

Follow us at SoundCloud.

Subscribe at YouTube.

Like us on Facebook.

Follow us on Twitter.

What are we consuming this week?

Matt Welch

• Bad Citizen Corporation: A Greg Salem Mystery by S.W. Lauden
• HHhH: A Novel by Laurent Binet

Katherine Mangu-Ward

• Blandings Castle by P.G. Wodehouse
• The Man With Two Left Feet by P.G. Wodehouse
• Bull Durham (1988)

Nick Gillespie

• The Declaration of Independents by Nick Gillespie and Matt Welch
• How to Change Your Mind: What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches Us About Consciousness, Dying, Addiction, Depression, and Transcendence by Michael Pollan

Peter Suderman

• 2312 by Kim Stanley Robinson
• The Gone-Away Work by Nick Harkaway
• Broken Harbor by Tana French
• Session Cocktails: Low-Alcohol Drinks for any Occasion by Drew Lazor

---

Comments

[John]

Reason demanding people get the facts straight on the immigration debate might be the most ironic headline ever.

[Scarecrow Repair & Chippering]

,,,, sez John, making it even more so.

[damikesc]

He isn't wrong. Reason's arguments tend to sit around "You folks are RAY-CIST!!!"

[Old Mexican - Mostly Harmless]

Indeed? Have you read the stuff Red Tony (aka John) makes up?

[John]

You mean like that Muslims do FGM? You mean like that Islamic immigration to Europe has been a disaster? Or that Mexicans are not superior to all other races? Lies like that?

[Old Mexican - Mostly Harmless]

Re: John,

No, like making up that I said Mexicans were superior to Americans. You cut that one from whole cloth.

[John]

So they are not? Or are you just claiming not to have said it? And if they are not, why are you always claiming that immigration makes the country so much better? How can it make the country better if it isn't bringing in superior people to the ones who are here now?

[Juice]

And if they are not, why are you always claiming that immigration makes the country so much better?

What kind of brain computes "immigration good" = "mexicans > americans"?

[Old Mexican - Mostly Harmless]

Re: John,

So they are not?

Who is "they"? Mexicans? Who said they were superior? You're making shit up, John.

Or are you just claiming not to have said it?

Are you now claiming your mommy is not a whore?

See how that works?

You.... Trumpista.

[damikesc]

Hasn't Reason, repeatedly, opined that illegals commit fewer crimes than citizens? Sure, it is utterly illogical, but hey, Reason buys it.

[Old Mexican - Mostly Harmless]

Re: damikesc,

Hasn't Reason, repeatedly, opined that illegals commit fewer crimes than citizens?

It's not an opinion. The data supports the fact that immigrants (even the "illegal" type which means nothing more than not having the government issued transit papers) commit less crimes than the native-born, as the incentives not to get in legal trouble are much higher with immigrants than with American citizens.

Sure, it is utterly illogical,

What? Why is it illogical? You're making shit up!

[damikesc]

To argue that locales that choose to turn blind eyes to crimes by illegals or to even determine status is evidence of anything is laughable.

The data is laughable.

[Old Mexican - Mostly Harmless]

Re: damikesc,

To argue that locales that choose to turn blind eyes to crimes by illegals [...]

Now you're flying off tangents for NO reason.

Undocumented immigrants run the risk of being deported and the more wealth they accumulate the higher the risk. Do you REALLY think people like that are going to throw it all for, what, being a cat burglar?

[damikesc]

Yes, stunning to think a person committing a crime might commit OTHER crimes.

[vek]

CORRECTION OLD DIRTY MEXICAN: They MAY commit fewer crimes than BLACK Americans. If you look at the stats they commit far more crimes than white or Asian Americans.

The only reason they can make the claim that they commit fewer crimes than natives is because most blacks are of course native born.

So it's PERHAPS a technically correct statement, but is disingenuous in the way it is presented... Because NOBODY considers the "bar" set by black America to be an acceptable bar for where crime levels should be.

Just sayin'.

[NicholasStix]

Old Mexican - Mostly Harmless

"It's not an opinion. The data supports the fact that immigrants (even the "illegal" type which means nothing more than not having the government issued transit papers) commit less crimes than the native-born..."

It's not an opinion; it's a lie.

"even the 'illegal' type which means nothing more than not having the government issued transit papers"

Your claims to owning property mean nothing more than having certain government and privately-issued papers. Thus, you won't mind me taking possession of your house, land, car, cash, etc.

[SIV]

Why do you hate brown people?

[Scarecrow Repair & Chippering]

Immigration control started with racism, like gun control. Here's my canned response.

Immigrants do not dodge taxes:

Local, state, and federal governments spend $9T a year. That's $25K per person. Most of that is from invisible taxes.

$15/hour sounds high to me for illegal immigrants, but let's roll with it. Tax calculators say the combined income, SS, and Medicare taxes on that come to $5K.

Those are the taxes not paid for off-the-books shadow jobs available to most illegal immigrants.

In other words, illegal immigrants are dodging only 20% of the taxes they would pay if legal. Most Americans would be proud to do the same.

Xenophobes need to come up with a better cover story.

Supporting immigration control is inconsistent with self-ownership, property rights, and the most basic principles of liberty:

Crossing borders on public property is a victimless crime.

Immigration control requires national IDs, the associated expensive intrusive bureaucracy, and the concomitant loss of privacy.

Immigration control asserts a nationalist collective obligation against individual rights to freely live, work, hire, and travel as we please.

Immigration control is one small step away from conscription and concentration camps.

The government can only prevent tresspassing if it owns all land and it is the will of the collective, consistent with land zoning.

Forbidding hiring of foreigners is consistent with occupational licensing.

[damikesc]

So, because you want it.

Couldve shortened this up a lot.

Countries have a right to defend their borders. Sorry if you hate basic law,

[Scarecrow Repair & Chippering]

Try answering some of my points, dipshit. Explain how government doesn't actually own property, even though they take it upon themselves to say who can cross it regardless of what the "owner" wants. Explain how land zoning is bad, government control is superb. Explain how occupational licensing is bad, government control of who hires who is good. Explain how much money illegals steal when they pay 80% of normal taxes and get very little for it.

[vek]

The problem is that most LOW SKILL immigrants, whether legal or not, do not even make enough money to cover their share of our monster sized government. This is exactly the same as the native born poor.

The thing is we're stuck with the native born poor! But why would we import more people when it is a KNOWN FACT up front that they will pay less into the system than they take out? Even just roads, schools, police, etc are a shit ton of money, and the middle of the middle class on up subsidizes the share of the poor. Import more poor = the subsidy has to be larger.

Hence I say only import high skill immigrants who pay for themselves and then some. That is a way to create a wealthier, on average, society, which is what everybody really wants. Total GDP is meaningless to any given individual. The GDP per capita is what makes a country a good, wealthy, prosperous country. You don't increase that by importing people that are all but guaranteed to earn less than the median income!

[Headache]

You left out the cost to the environment.

12 million illegals is equivalent to a large city. The 10 states with the highest cost of housing are all sanctuary communities. Illegals shit, just like every other population, so you can add the cost of waste water treatment. Illegals also consume food, just like every other population, so supply and demand dictates the cost of food production/consumption increases. It increases the need to produce a higher yield, which in turn, means more GMOs, more chemical fertilizer, more CAFOs.

Now, some will say but the illegals are the ones cultivating the food supply. Which is true for the time being. Those jobs will eventually be replaced by machines. If not, then they are in favor of relegating these peoples to poverty, if not outright slavery!

[vek]

All true! I am a bit of a techno optimist on some of the doom and gloom environmental stuff... I think we'll figure out solutions. BUT that doesn't mean that I don't bring it up to left leaning people when I talk about immigration! I love watching their faces contort when I bring up the fact that importing 10s of millions of people (including legal immigrants) has dramatically degraded the environment here, and the 10s of millions more will make it still worse. I even bring up that their carbon footprint EXPLODES once they get in the USA!

It's pretty hilarious to watch their brains melt over what should be an obvious conclusion. It is a real thing to be sure. For me it's more the crowded ass freeways etc versus traditional environmental worries.

[General_Tso]

I came to say the same. Touche

[Mickey Rat]

If there is no self-deprecation, just for publishing Dalmia's overwrought opinions on immigration if nothing else, in this podcast then they have no self-awareness.

[John]

Self awareness is just not something the reason staff does.

[Curly4]

Why Can't Anyone Get Their Immigration Facts Straight?:

The point of immigration is not true facts it is to make a political point! Each side is trying to make out their stand on immigration is the best and to appeal to their base. Both sides have some positive points as well as negative points. That aside neither wants to get rid of "immigration" as a political talking point.

[Longtorso, Johnny]

Councillors and police 'had sex' with Rotherham abuse victims
Two local councillors, one of whom is still serving, and a police officer have been accused of having sex with victims involved in the Rotherham child abuse scandal.

[John]

Reason assures me that no one really knows what that story is about. It is just one of those things. Bad luck.

[Hail Rataxes]

Reason assures me

Cite?

[John]

http://reason.com/blog/2014/09.....x-exploita

See if you can find someone to read this to you.

[Hail Rataxes]

Did you think I wouldn't follow your link and find out you were full of shit?

The report...does discuss ethnic issues that contributed to this crisis, but it's actually really just a small part of her report. The majority of the report is made up of descriptions governmental failures that will be starkly familiar to critics of official bureaucracy
...
In the section on ethnicity and its relationship to the exploitation (which takes up less than five pages of the full report), Jay notes that young people believe that police won't arrest Asian suspects for fear of being called racist, and managers told social care workers to be cautious about identifying race in their reports. But Jay also notes that authorities have only vaguely tried to build ties to the Muslim community through male leaders and rarely consulted with women or girls. As such, they didn't seem to be aware that Asian girls were also targets of sexual grooming. This helped feed a cultural myth that Pakistani predators were targeting white girls for sex as some sort of anti-Western thing when in fact they were also preying on girls within their own community, which is typically how such exploitation works. Elsewhere in the report, the men suspected of exploiting girls were also seen with trafficking drugs and guns. In other words, they were thugs.

Maybe someone can read it to you?

[John]

Thanks for giving a quote that says exactly what I said it did. We can't really blame this on the Muslims because well the police didn't really do enough to tell them to stop this sort of thing. And you know bad people do bad things.

I was just kidding about you getting someone to read it to you. But, try getting them to explain it to you as well. God you are stupid. Just dumb as a post.

[damikesc]

I wonder if the Brits realize that sketches from Seinfeld arent meant to inform government policy.

[buybuydandavis]

"Why Can't Anyone Get Their Immigration Facts Straight?"

Brought to you by Reason, serving up a weekly dose Shikha's lies

Reason is such a clown show these days

[Old Mexican - Mostly Harmless]

Wait, what lies?

[John]

That low crime rates among legal immigrants means that there is low crime among illegal immigrants. And that the low crime rate among legal immigrants means that there is no risk to expanding legal immigration rather than it meaning the current system is doing its job keeping criminal aliens out and deterring ones who are here from committing crimes.

They tell that lie about once a week.

[Old Mexican - Mostly Harmless]

Re: John,

That low crime rates among legal immigrants means that there is low crime among illegal immigrants.

And from where do you get that this is a lie? There's no difference between immigrants and "illegal" immigrants other than the fact that the latter don't have the government-issued transit papers. That doesn't mean they're more inclined to committing crimes. That's YOUR conclusion, but no one made you the truth-definer in chief.

there is no risk to expanding legal immigration rather than it meaning the current system is doing its job keeping criminal aliens out

But that's not a LIE, you nitwit. That may be her conclusion, but just because you don't agree with it doesn't mean she's lying.

Idiot!

[John]

There's no difference between immigrants and "illegal" immigrants other than the fact that the latter don't have the government-issued transit papers.

And that is a difference you fucking moron. The legal immigrants go through a long vetting process and can't get in unless they don't have a criminal record and they lose their status and get deported if they commit a crime here. Ilegal immigrants are anyone who decides to come without permission. Do you not understand the difference?

The sad fact is that you really are this stupid. I used to think you were just dishonest. But no, you are so stupid you can't see the difference between a carefully vetted group and a group consisting of anyone willing to break the law.

Have you ever taken an IQ test? Did you score above 80?

[Old Mexican - Mostly Harmless]

rE: John,

And that is a difference you fucking moron.

The government doesn't get to define REALITY, you gawd-damned Fascist!

The legal immigrants go through a long vetting process

It's not a vetting process. It's an artificial BARRIER TO ENTRY imposed by a government wit a penchant for Central Planning - that's ALL.

This "vetting" process obeys NO MARKET NEEDS, but 100% political needs - the need to appease xenophobic and economically unsophisticated morons such as those who populate the ranks of Trumpista forces.

I used to think you were just dishonest.

I used to think people exaggerated when they referred to you as "Red Tony". I've learned my lesson. You're just another gawdamed government dick-sucking Fascist. You merely came out after Trump said "Mexican Rapists."

[John]

It's not a vetting process. It's an artificial BARRIER TO ENTRY imposed by a government wit a penchant for Central Planning - that's ALL.

So what? The fact that you don't like it says nothing about its effectiveness in keeping out criminals.

This "vetting" process obeys NO MARKET NEEDS, but 100% political needs

The market demands criminals? Meeting the market needs doesn't mean that it isn't effective at keeping out criminals.

You seem to be totally unable to make a sensible point here. In fact, I don't think you are smart enough to even understand what is going on here. You just seem to emote and scream some variation of "I Want".

[vek]

Old Mexican, look up crime stats by education level. Although not perfect education level is an okay proxy for IQ.

People with advanced degrees commit orders of magnitude fewer crimes of all sorts than uneducated people. This being because people with high IQs simply commit fewer crimes because they have better opportunities, and since smart people tend to get higher educations this works as a proxy.

In other words if we only let in PHDs from abroad they would have VASTLY lower crime rates than the native population. If we only let in middle school dropouts they would have higher crime rates.

Statistics don't tell you about any specific individual, but to deny that when one is talking about MILLIONS of people statistics won't tell you anything meaningful... That's just idiotic. Which is exactly what you're doing. BTW the average education level of a Mexican illegal immigrant is 8th grade. So probably not the brightest... Most of the smart Mexicans either stay in Mexico because life isn't too bad for educated people there, OR they immigrate legally.

Illegals are, statistically speaking, kind of like if Mexico took nothing but black gang bangers from Detroit or trailer park white trash from Mississippi from the USA... They would probably have a higher crime rate than the average Mexican. They're NOT the best and brightest. It's a matter of statistics.

[Brett Bellmore]

"People with advanced degrees commit orders of magnitude fewer crimes of all sorts than uneducated people. This being because people with high IQs simply commit fewer crimes because they have better opportunities, and since smart people tend to get higher educations this works as a proxy."

Seriously, I wouldn't rule out the possibly that smart people are also better at avoiding being caught.

[vek]

Brett Bellmore

"Seriously, I wouldn't rule out the possibly that smart people are also better at avoiding being caught."

Meh, maybe. I would imagine the rates of criminality for things like smoking weed, maybe DUIs, or other semi minor things aren't that much different for smart/dumb people. If they are a chunk of it might be smart people are better at getting away with it...

I myself got busted for underage drinking, and doing a few other minor dumb things when a teenager, and I have a high IQ.

That said, for more serious crimes I would imagine it is a "real" difference in rates of committing the crimes. For instance I have never seriously contemplated robbing a liquor store, or becoming a meth cooker, etc. Some guy with an 85 IQ who is hard up for cash may well SERIOUSLY consider those options, even if they don't end up doing it. What's a big part of that reason? I already make okay money, and have better options. Also low IQ people tend to also show low impulse control. So not being able to think things through well cuz you're not too bright + lack of self control = crime.

It makes perfect sense. Not ALL low IQ people are criminals of course, but as a matter of statistics the vast majority of people in prison have below average IQs. The smart sociopaths that go into crime end up being Al Capone or Pablo Escabar types, the idiots just get busted for having 2 pounds of meth.

[Mark22]

This "vetting" process obeys NO MARKET NEEDS, but 100% political needs

Correct: who we into the country is a political decision and it is a decision American voters can make in any way we choose. Immigration is a privilege, not a right. As an immigrant myself, I found the US enormously welcoming and tolerant.

The hatred you direct towards Americans, "Old Mexican", is a reflection of your own biogtry, racism, and xenophobia.

[Mark22]

And from where do you get that this is a lie? There's no difference between immigrants and "illegal" immigrants other than the fact that the latter don't have the government-issued transit papers

You're either astoundingly ignorant or astoundingly mendacious; I can't quite figure out which.

[Juice]

Reason is such a clown show these days

With so many other quality sites like Breitbart and Townhall, why spend another minute on this one?

[Harvard]

I'm leaning.

[SIV]

Has Reason condemned ABC for "censorship" yet?

[John]

Yeah, that will be happening real soon. They won't say anything and just hope no one notices.

[Mickey Rat]

If anything they will affirm ABC's right to take a bath on canceling a popular show for not wanting tp associated with such abhorrent remarks.

I am sure Iger is thrilled to be handed a reason to cancel a series that was not pandering to leftist sensibilities.

[Old Mexican - Mostly Harmless]

Re: SIV,

Has Reason condemned ABC for "censorship" yet?

ABC is still a private company that enjoys its Right to Wipe Its Ass With Its Own Money.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

This comment works on so many levels in Venezuela.

[Gilbert Martin]

"ABC is still a private company that enjoys its Right to Wipe Its Ass With Its Own Money."

ABC is owned by Disney which is a publicly traded corporation that has a legal fiduciary duty to the stockholders to maximize profits.

Whether cancelling a TV show with high ratings due to knee jerk political correctness will lead to higher corporate profits than not cancelling it is arguable.

[Brett Bellmore]

Mind, it's virtually unheard of for a publicly traded corporation to be sanctioned for violating that fiduciary duty, so, while it IS a legal duty, it's more theoretical than practical.

Short of the corporation taking it's accounts out in the form of cash, and making a bonfire of them, they can get away with deliberately doing money losing things.

[An Innocent Man]

Why can't anyone get it straight that we need things to read, not listen to. If it ain't music, I ain't listening.

[Mickey Rat]

Writing is such hard work, man.

[Brett Bellmore]

I'm with you. Writing is perhaps the single most important invention in human history, more important than agriculture or cooking.

This fad for streaming podcasts in place of the written word is a huge step backwards, for everybody but illiterates.

[Fist of Etiquette]

Immigration is one of those topics too important to research before emoting about.

[Citizen X]

2312 is a terrible book.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

Why?

[Citizen X]

It's permeated with the idea that humans are, collectively, irredeemable fuckups that the universe would be better off without. Which would be fine if it was a one-off, but that seems to be Robinson's whole thing.

[Citizen X]

Although, reading upthread, maybe he's not entirely wrong.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

Yeah, I was thinking may be just reads Reason comments.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

Although, thinking about it, the concept of what is good for the cold, unfeeling universe, is sort of silly.

[Cynical Asshole]

HHhH: A Novel

At first I read that as Hihn: A Novel.

[Citizen X]

Same here, and the chill of an opened crypt passed over me.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

One of your cats must be thinking about you.

[Citizen X]

They're cats. They don't think about me unless their food dish is empty at 5 in the morning.

[Chipper Morning Baculum]

That's what they want you to think, until their plan comes to fruition.

[TSTB]

We have a great country. The people of our country decide who else can come in, how they can come in and how long they can stay.
Like you do at your house.
Right now we have too many people inviting themselves into our country. Some of them mean to do us harm, others just like it here better than where they were living, and we cannot tell them apart. Many of them are destitute. We are generous people but we are broke and cannot pay our esisting bills without borrowing more too much money. We need a fence with a strong gate to keep us from being over run and destroyed.
Like they have at the White House.
But we cannot decide who else can come in, how they can come in or how long they can stay. Our indecision is intractable.
Also, some people who already live here do not believe our country is great or ever was great and that it should be destroyed.
It is not clear which side will destroy our country first, the ones outside or the ones inside, and often those two groups are acting together to hasten our destruction.
Are these facts? I do not know. I am just a simple guy watching the decline of Western Civilization over a cup of coffee.
I have to get back to work.

[Citizen X]

Who's "we," kemosabe?

[damikesc]

An overwhelming majority of voters.

[Headache]

The open border types don't nail down when enough is enough. Some ague 1 million a year, others as many that want to come and those that think Star Trek is conceivable.

If you lived in India would you want to stay or leave? Would India be a better place to live if 500 million left? Would China be a better place to live if 500 million left? Where would they go?

Likely, places with open borders. Meaning Europe and if Reason has it's way the U.S. Then would either place be a better place to live? Could a smaller government with less control of the individual even exist? I think not!

[Headache]

excuse me "its"

[widget]

California has been an immigrant haven for a bit over 30 years. Reagan's amnesty of 1986 set it off. I first moved to California a couple years earlier. One of the first things I noticed was the antipathy I got from native Californians. The most popular car bumper sticker at the time read "Welcome to California, Now Go Home". This was referring to White transplants from other parts of the US who came to California, like I did, for economic opportunities, pleasant weather, and freedom. It would take some steel balls to put that bumper sticker on your car today. Now it might be misconstrued to mean you are referring cannibals from The Congo or hardcore Islamic tribesmen from rural Pakistan. California, like the UK, is in the grip of cultural Marxism. We have dodged the first bullets by having mostly Mexicans and East Asians become the primary source of immigration to California. That is not the long-term plan of open borders advocates.

[Harvard]

The long term plan for open border advocates is globalism. That new world order thingey.

[Headache]

That is exactly right. And when achieved, could Reason even advocate for smaller less intrusive government?

[BestUsedCarSales]

I just want to say. One reason people disagree on the facts, is that for any significantly complex topic such as this, the facts are not definitive, as we do not have total information. And so we have multiple sets of reasonable facts, We can work to show some better, some worse, but this is an issue with any empirical endeavor.

[Gilbert Martin]

Speaking of facts, people seeking asylum are supposed to request it from the first country that they cross into.

For the Central Americans that would be Mexico.

But instead of that happening, Mexico facilitates caravans of those people traveling all the way through it's own territory up to the Untied States border to try to claim it here and there seems to be some implicit assumption that Mexico is supposed to get a pass for this and that none of the back and forth arguments about immigration are supposed to discuss that aspect of it.

[Headache]

And the Canadians are beginning to bitch about how many are crossing the northern border.

The North American Economic Union is forming. Bigger, stronger, more intrusive government controlled by unelected overseers.

[MikeP2]

"Why Can't Anyone Get Their Immigration Facts Straight?"

Do you mean to actually say "anyone", or does this exempt some of the raving no-borders crowd here?

[vek]

The problem is that sets of FACTS exist that are supportive of both arguments in some ways. However one can look at all the facts and come to an overall conclusion by saying that the pros/cons balance out in favor of one or the other conclusion. This is complicated by the fact that some facts when taken out of context, or phrased a certain way, don't really mean what people think they mean.

As I mentioned above the possibility that LEGAL immigrants commit fewer crimes than native born Americans is reasonable. They're vetted, a decent chunk are also high skill, and they have a lot of skin in the game to stay well behaved since they're on the legal track to becoming citizens. It does not follow that illegals have any of these same characteristics, because it is known that they don't have some of them.

BUT even if they did it's a pointless statement that doesn't mean what many think it means. The reality is that legal immigrants commit fewer crimes than BLACK AMERICANS. And perhaps Hispanic native born. But THEY DO NOT commit fewer crimes than white or Asian Americans.

[vek]

That is to say if illegals were to move into a black neighborhood crime per capita might well go down. But if they move into a white neighborhood or Asian neighborhood it would go UP. If you phrased that argument every time as "illegal immigrants commit fewer crimes than black Americans" that would leave a very different idea in peoples heads, as almost nobody considers black levels of crime to be an acceptable bar.

Hence places like Reason who are blinded by their unwavering goal of pushing an agenda will never properly grapple with the pros and cons side of the argument, instead only misquoting whatever facts they think back up their conclusion. This is why we can't have a sensible discussion on this and many other subjects. You need to look at both sides of an argument to come to the right decision.

[Mark22]

President Donald Trump can barely open his mouth about immigration without getting something heinously wrong.

Who knew that Trump and Reason staff had so much in common!

[Flinch]

Why can't we get facts straight? Good question. But... where are they? Who has them? My money says MS13 knows more about inflows/outflows of illegals than any alphabet soup federal agency. After that, the Mexican government probably has good tabs on crossings based on cash flows to local police. The only thing dems want is to count ballots [via motor-voter], and half the GOP is trying to copy their performace [and failing mightily, as people who want pickpocket politics will pull a straight D ticket every time]. I don't expect much wisdom from the hacks in DC, and whatever is being offered to Trump is pretty close to a box of smashed glass with a fairy tale about what it represents - DC has covered it's eyes and plugged its ears for at least thirty years when it comes to illegal immigration. Trumps move to determine citizenship on the census might scratch the surface but... congress needs to demand states indicate citizenship status on drivers licenses.

[Surecareetips]

computer course
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