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No-Knock Warrant for Deadly Drug Raid Describes Heroin and a Gun Cops Didn't Find

Houston narcotics officers thought bursting into the house without warning was the cautious approach.

Google MapsGoogle MapsAccording to the search warrant authorizing the drug raid that killed a middle-aged Houston couple in their home on Monday, police were expecting to find many plastic bags containing a "brown powder" identified as black-tar heroin. Instead they found an unspecified amount of marijuana and a white powder they thought might be cocaine or fentanyl.

The no-knock warrant, obtained by KTRK, the ABC affiliate in Houston, was approved by Houston Municipal Court Judge Gordon Marcum on Monday afternoon, about three and a half hours before narcotics officers burst into the home of Dennis Tuttle and Rhogena Nicholas at 7815 Harding Street. On Sunday, the officer who applied for the warrant says in his affidavit, he sent a confidential informant to buy heroin at that location from "a white male, whose name is unknown." The C.I. emerged from the house with "a quantity of brown powder" and reported that he had seen more of it packaged in "a large quantity of plastic baggies." The officer, whose name is blacked out, says he was watching the informant the whole time and adds that afterward "surveillance was placed on the above location in question by narcotics officers."

So where did the heroin go? According to the affidavit, there were numerous bags of it in the house on Sunday. Yet they had disappeared by the following evening, notwithstanding the police surveillance.

That is not the only inconsistency. The C.I. claimed to have seen "a semi-auto hand gun of a 9mm caliber" in the house on Sunday. Yet police found no such weapon on Monday. In addition to the .357 Magnum revolver that Tuttle reportedly fired at the narcotics officers after they knocked down his door and killed his dog with a shotgun, police found three shotguns, a .22 rifle, and a Remington 700 bolt-action rifle. What happened to the 9mm semi-automatic pistol?

That possibly nonexistent gun figured in the police request for "authorization to enter the suspected place and premises without first knocking and announcing the presence and purpose of officers executing the warrant." The affidavit explains that "when weapons are used or displayed at a narcotic transaction, it is for the protection of the narcotics, and or to buy time so that the narcotics may be destroyed." Hence knocking and announcing would be "dangerous, futile, or would inhibit the effective investigation of the offense described in this Affidavit."

As it turned out, breaking into the house without warning and opening fire with a shotgun was not a safer approach. It precipitated a shootout during which five officers were injured (four by gunfire) and two suspects were killed. Based on the official description of the raid (which was not recorded), it is entirely possible that Tuttle did not realize the armed men invading his home were police officers. It is hard to imagine that things would have turned out worse if police had taken the "dangerous" approach of announcing themselves.

This disastrous search supposedly was the culmination of a two-week investigation triggered by a neighbor's tip. During that time police apparently did not manage to document suspicious activity at the house or even identify the owners, who had lived there for two decades. Yet the officer who sought the warrant confidently informed his C.I. that "narcotics were being sold and stored" in the house. How did he know that?

Police Chief Art Acevedo claims the home was locally notorious as "a drug house" and a "problem location." Yet after the raid, neighbors told local reporters they had not seen any signs that Tuttle and Nicholas, who seemed like perfectly nice people, were selling drugs. Since I wrote about the raid yesterday, I have received messages from other neighbors who say the same thing. "They were wonderful people" who "never bothered anyone," according to one. Evidently Tuttle and Nicholas were so discreet that none of these people noticed anything suspicious yet so conspicuous that "the neighborhood thanked our officers" for the raid, as Acevedo put it.

As I said yesterday, the violent home invasion that police staged on Monday would have been reckless and immoral even if Tuttle and Nicholas were selling heroin. But the evidence against them seems to have been limited to the word of a paid confidential informant who claimed to have seen drugs and a handgun that were mysteriously gone the following day, even though police supposedly were watching the house in the interim.

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  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    before narcotics officers burst into the home of Dennis Tuttle

    Archibald Buttle. It's just a simple paperwork error.

  • smartmuffin||

    Everyone remotely involved in this on the police side should be arrested and tried for murder.

  • Diane Reynolds (Paul.)||

    Mistakes were made, bullets were discharged, officers were hurt.

  • MatthewSlyfield||

    Even if the officer deaths were friendly fire, they'll still pin it on the dead couple as felony murder.

  • a ab abc abcd abcde abcdef ahf||

    Or the informant for lying to them. Obstruction of justice!

  • Deconstructed Potato||

    Ah, you have seen The Shield.

  • modurhead||

    i second that motion

  • Enjoy Every Sandwich||

    I still wonder if the police recovered any significant amount of cash.

  • Nardz||

    Haven't you seen Training Day?
    Of course they "didn't"
    And that empty hole in the middle of the kitchen floor was already there...

  • modurhead||

    the hero cops stole their guns and murdered the owners i think they consider that a win in the land of the free

  • croaker||

    And then there's the cop who is so bad the only job he can find is president of the police union.

    Who promptly wipes his ass in public with the First Amendment.

    I know who needs to be RICOed, and it's not the drug dealers.

  • John||

    Being a police officer is a very difficult job that only a certain number of people are cut out to do well. One of the biggest mistakes the country has made over the last 50 years was thinking the solution to crime was "more cops on the streets". We have long since run through the pool of people who are cut out to be police officers and have been forced to take more and more people who are not cut out for it and take the job because they can't find another or worse they just want to be a legally sanctioned bully.

  • Just Say'n||

    Instead of considering that we have the wrong top men, maybe we should entertain the idea that there's a problem with the way policing is done

  • John||

    The problems with the way policing is done is a direct result of having the wrong people doing it. These tactics were not forced upon the police by evil politicians or aliens. These tactics are used because the police themselves think it is the way things should be done. And that is the direct result of hiring the wrong people to be police.

  • spork||

    Interesting take, John. I agree.

    Say we end the war on drugs and scale back the massive prosecutorial apparatus. How could we correct the methods in the process of scaling back the force? There would have to be demilitarization, but would we want the reformed police culture to be mandated by legislative committee? That could be worse in new ways.

    We're stuck.

  • Heedless||

    This is a lovely bit of fiction.

    The sad truth is that police departments are actually less corrupt and less incompetent than they have ever been. Back in the 70s, New York's narcotics department was essentially an outpost of La Cosa Nostra. Same in LA and Chicago. The FBI was still operating with Hoover's mindset. The main difference was that recording devices were few rare, large, and expensive, so it was difficult for the victims of police violence to contradict the cops' account of events.

  • John||

    I see no reason to believe anything has changed. Yes we hear about it more but there is just as much money in drugs and organized crime as there ever has been. There is no reason to think that cops are any more resistent to the corruption that comes with that today than they ever were.

  • John||

    In fact, I would take the old days of corrupt police who at least were not going to kick my door down and murder me than our new improved straight and narrow police who might.

  • Trainer||

    Actually, many people who would make great cops don't bother because then they'd have put up with the cops who aren't so great.

  • John||

    That too.

  • KevinP||

    Houston Chief Art Acevedo is a progressive thug and a bully.

    Houston Police Chief Says He's 'Watching' Dana Loesch
    http://www.dailywire.com/news/.....n-saavedra

  • Just Say'n||

    So what your saying is that he's going to be hailed as a hero despite this?

  • ||

    Well, if she ever runs for public office, people won't immediately think she's crazy when she claims she's being spied on, right?

  • John||

    There are few things more dangerous than going into a building where someone is waiting for you armed and meaning you harm. The best protection police have, especially in a state like Texas that actually enforces the death penalty is a gun and a badge. Only the most desparate and dangerous criminal will want to turn whatever their crime is into a death sentence by killing a cop.

    No knock raids make policing more dangerous not less. The biggest danger to a cop serving a warrent is for the subject to not realize they are a cop and think they are being robbed. So the worst thing the police can do is barge in without ensuring the people inside the building know who they are. And why anyone would think doing a raid in plain clothes is anything but an invitation to make the Darwin awards is beyond me.

    Ultimately, the police care more about terrorizing people than they do about their own officers' safety. That is the only logical conclusion I can draw from all of this.

  • Calidissident||

    It seems a lot safer for everyone to wait for suspects to leave the house (when possible) than to barge in, particularly with no warning. But what do I know, I'm not one of our heroes in blue.

  • Just Say'n||

    Or to at least get the right house

  • John||

    Mistakes were made, shots were fired...

  • MatthewSlyfield||

    The object is to get the suspects and the evidence all in one swell foop.

  • Calidissident||

    If you catch the suspect right outside their home you can still do both, with less danger.

  • DaveSs||

    Police-state style assault forces being used to violently enter a persons residence when that person is not actively engaged in violent acts are incompatible with life in a free society.

    As it is better a hundred guilty go free than one innocent person be imprisoned.

    So too is it better a hundred guilty destroy evidence of their guilt than one innocent person's life be risked or worse ended by an extremely violent breach of the peace initiated by agents of the State.

  • Just Say'n||

    Hey now, you're actually endorsing the concept of 'liberty'. That's hate speech round these parts

  • Trainer||

    Or two innocent people be killed.

  • Still Curmudgeoned (Nunya)||

    Geez. Can't you understand? They have cool toys. They trained to mimic Schwarzenegger. Its almost like you expect them to just fill out paperwork.

  • ||

    The object is to get the suspects and the evidence all in one swell foop.

    Well, two swell foops if you accidentally start out across the street at the wrong house.

  • I can't even||

    Yes - pure intimidation.

    How easy would it have been to wait until they both left the house? Pull them over arrest them, then search the house at your leisure.

    But that doesn't get you SWAT funding and cool military gear.

  • $park¥ is the Worst||

    Evidently Tuttle and Nicholas were so discreet that none of these people noticed anything suspicious yet so conspicuous that "the neighborhood thanked our officers" for the raid

    They was crafty.

  • Jerryskids||

    The drug dealers who look and act like drug dealers is a Hollywood fiction - all cops know it's the least suspicious people that are the most suspicious. *Not* looking and acting like a drug dealer is a dead giveaway that you're a drug dealer. And there's the drug dealers who try to fool the cops by looking like drug dealers and thinking cops won't suspect them. Cops can spot them a mile away. The worst are the ones who look a little like a drug dealer and a little like a not-a-drug dealer, those are the most easy for the cops to spot.

  • Dillinger||

    >>>"surveillance was placed on the above location in question by narcotics officers."

    unlikely. and the spokes-idiot who was recorded telling everyone what he is "sick and tired" of can fuck off.

  • Billy Bones||

    I still believe they fucked and went to the wrong home. As reported yesterday, during the press conference, they referred to a similar, but different address. They fucked up and are scrambling to cover thy asses.

  • SIV||

    If it was the wrong house they forged the affidavit for a search warrant after the fact.

  • John||

    They may have misunderstood their informant and gotten the wrong house from him. That would explain why the address was the same on the affadavit but no one in the House had any drugs.

    Or the informant may have been lying his ass off and looking to get paid or pay back some grudge against the people there. I think there likely was an informant. Otherwise, why would the police have chosen that house at all?

  • Nardz||

    See: Training Day

    "After paying a visit to Roger, an ex-cop turned drug dealer...
    Using the warrant, Alonzo, Jake, and four other corrupt narcotics officers return to Roger's house and seize $4 million from the premises. Alonzo shoots and kills Roger when Jake refuses to do so..."

    I would not be surprised if the real story is a similar situation to this.
    Corrupt cops friendly with drug dealer, maybe partnered, and something happens that prompts them to either rob or silence him.

  • John||

    Speaking of police, the recent events in Eugene Oregon are more than a bit disturbing. The short story is some Antifa asshole shows up at his daughter's middle school trying to take her home. He was divorced and had changed the daughter's school in spite of his ex wife having full custody and the authority to choose the kid's school. The guy shows up and gets into with the school officians and finally gets into it with a cop. He then proceeds to pull a gun and the cop shoots him dead. The video of this is all over the internet if you want to look. It appears that the cop was justified. The guy is arguing with the cop and then pulls a gun out leaving the cop no choice but to shoot him.

    His Antifa buddies appearently planted a bomb outside of the Eugene police department trying to take revenge.

    http://www.kezi.com/content/ne.....32022.html

    That is some serious shit. It is easy to laugh at Antifa as a bunch of loser playing makebelieve. And most of them are. But there are also some seriously violent and dangerous people involved with Antifa. And the national media refuses to even touch the story or do anything except egg on and excuse Antifa.

  • Nardz||

    The more dead antifa, the better

  • spork||

    His kid saw the whole thing. What a piece of shit.

  • LiborCon||

    "And the national media refuses to even touch the story or do anything except egg on and excuse Antifa."

    What do you expect? The national media are the propaganda wing, antifa is the militant wing and the Democrats are the political wing.

  • Uncle Jay||

    The police don't need to knock.
    They just need to push down the door, kill anyone inside, loot their bank accounts and belongings and sell off their car, house and other real property.
    This is called progress.
    How else are cops going to afford a vacation home in the Bahamas?

  • a ab abc abcd abcde abcdef ahf||

    As usual, they lie. If their true intent was to remove drugs from society, and hinder drug dealers, the simplest method would be to surround the place, announce their presence with bullhorns, and sit tight while the drugs were destroyed. Now the drugs are gone and the dealer owes someone a lot of money.

    Problem solved without a SWAT raid, but of course, that's the problem. If they really solved the problem, their jobs would be unnecessary and they wouldn't get the fun of shooting dogs and people.

  • creech||

    How about two undercover cops go back with the CI to "make a buy" and then get the drop on the seller? CI refuses to do this, then his tattling isn't good enough to produce a warrant.

  • Aleyn||

    5 will get you 1 the "white powder", will turn out to be baking soda, but of course that's only ever used to cut drugs.

  • KiwiDude||

    It might be laundry detergent!! That's some dangerous shit. You ever see someone hopped up on Persil man??? They will kill you rather than look at you.

  • loveconstitution1789||

    Doubtful that there will be any police accountability.

    Luckily, the War on Drugs is diminishing all around the drug warriors as weed becomes 100% legal again.

  • KiwiDude||

    New Zealands election in 2019 will be accompanied with a referendum about Legalizing Cannabis for recreational use and one about leglizing Euthanasia.

    Prostitution (and being a John, a pimp or a madame) are already legalized.

    Not perfect, but we getting closer

  • KiwiDude||

    New Zealands election in 2019 will be accompanied with a referendum about Legalizing Cannabis for recreational use and one about leglizing Euthanasia.

    Prostitution (and being a John, a pimp or a madame) are already legalized.

    Not perfect, but we getting closer

  • Ken Shultz||

    "In addition to the .357 Magnum revolver that Tuttle reportedly fired at the narcotics officers after they knocked down his door and killed his dog with a shotgun, police found three shotguns, a .22 rifle, and a Remington 700 bolt-action rifle. What happened to the 9mm semi-automatic pistol?"

    Guessing that there was a 9mm pistol would be a likely story. It's probably the most common gun out there right now. If you were just making shit up as an informant, guessing that there would be a 9mm pistol is a pretty good guess. You might also guess that they were fans of the Houston Texans.

  • John||

    I will go one step further. The cops know that they need to show presence of weapons to justify a no knock raid. So, let me by cynical here and say that they might just coach their informants to always say that they see a gun. I bet you a mortgage payment that if you went back and read the afadavits the Houston PD has used to justify search warrants in drug cases over the last few years or who knows how much longer, every single one of them or close to contained some mention of weapons.

    You can't confuse a .357 revolver for a 9mm. That part was absolutely made up by the informant and is doing so is almost certainly SOP.

    Meanwhile, who was this informant and why isn't his ass in a massive sling for falsely accusing these people of dealing drugs and getting them killed?

  • Trainer||

    Meanwhile, who was this informant and why isn't his ass in a massive sling for falsely accusing these people of dealing drugs and getting them killed?

    Because the police are still caught up in their lie. They are still being referred to as though they were drug dealers. Of were- there has been no follow up in Houston news that I can find.

  • John||

    My guess is there will not be. Local news stations are the worst about being propaganda tools for the police. They will do everything they can to get this out of the public eye as quickly as possible.

  • Trainer||

    There has't been anything about it in 24 hours except for this slight of hand with an activist calling out the union president and Gamaldi doubling down.

  • John||

    This shit has to stop. I am tired of having to agree with the activists. Cops can't just kick in people's doors and shoot them and expect not to be held accountable for it.

  • Bender B. Rodriguez||

    I shared this story with my wife yesterday, my anger and bewilderment at the sheer systemic incompetence and malice on full display.

    She thought for a moment, and casually mentioned that had these homeowners not have used their firearms to protect themselves, they wouldn't have been killed.

    My own facepalm nearly landed me in the ER.

  • Juice||

    Your wife better be hot.

  • Still Curmudgeoned (Nunya)||

    And nice. No crazies.

  • Bender B. Rodriguez||

    I shared this story with my wife yesterday, my anger and bewilderment at the sheer systemic incompetence and malice on full display.

    She thought for a moment, and casually mentioned that had these homeowners not have used their firearms to protect themselves, they wouldn't have been killed.

    My own facepalm nearly landed me in the ER.

  • Just Say'n||

    Your wife isn't that far off from the response of most people. This narrative was set before the facts even came in and only after did the reality come to light. It's very difficult for people to give-up on a narrative that they've been fed (look no further than "boofing" truthers; people who still insist that that kid did something by smiling at Chief Lies A Lot, and the Russia Fever Dreams crowd). Considering that our national media behaves more like propagandists than reporters this kind of "narrative before facts" is just going to continue going forward.

  • John||

    These people are dead and there is no evidence they did anything wrong or in any way deserved to have their house searched much less be murdered. It has been nearly a week. If either one of them had so much as a parking ticket on their record, I guarantee you the police would be out slandering them as criminals who had what was coming to them by now. They are not as far as I can see.

    I find it very difficult to believe that a middle aged couple with no prior criminal history was selling heroin out of their home and was so sly or lucky they managed to destroy all evidence of their doing so in the 48 hours in between when they were supposed to have sold the stuff to the informant and when the cops showed up. These people were almost certainly innocent and the cops who shot them ought to be up for murder.

    I think one of two things happened. Either the cops fucked up and got the wrong house number from their informant or the informant had a grudge against these people for some reason and decided to SWAT them. Either way the cops are guilty of criminal negligence and everyone associated with this ought end up in jail. Of course, everyone knows nothing will happen except the taxpayers being on the hook for God knows how much money after the families sue.

  • Eddy||

    I can think of various reasons they might have shot at the cops

    -high on their own supply
    -just plain crazy
    -suicidal
    -didn't know they were cops.

    I can't prove any particular scenario is the true one, but the likelihood would be in favor of the final option unless i learn more.

  • John||

    Being high on your own supply is very unlikely since there was no supply in the house. They also were unlikely crazy since there is no indication they had done anything crazy before. Same goes for suicidal.

    They didn't know they were cops and were terrified and tried to defend themselves. That is the only logical explanation given the facts we know.

  • Trainer||

    Also, anyone "high" on heroin is not generally in the mood for a gun fight.

  • Trainer||

    Watch the video of the police chief talking about what they found and what that white powder might be. Some psych professor can use for a lesson on how to tell when someone is lying.

  • ||

    Watch the video of the police chief

    @1:06-1:15 I count 6 "officers" (there are more people but I can't distinguish them effectively). Only one of them would I readily distinguish as an officer. 4 wearing vests, 2 wearing camouflaged combat uniforms. Only one has the 'Houston Police' lettering visible. The only guy that clearly and instantly sends a "don't shoot" message is a 7th guy wearing a neon-yellow and reflective safety vest. And this is a freakin' news broadcast.

  • Juice||

    Time to riot. Black Lives Matter!

  • Jerryskids||

    On Sunday, the officer who applied for the warrant says in his affidavit, he sent a confidential informant to buy heroin at that location from "a white male, whose name is unknown." The C.I. emerged from the house with "a quantity of brown powder" and reported that he had seen more of it packaged in "a large quantity of plastic baggies."

    A confidential informant? You mean the lying piece of shit junkie you busted last week and told him you'd go easy on him if he ratted out his supplier and so the guy just came up with a lie off the top of his head? Yeah, he emerged from the house with a quantity of brown powder because he had it in his pocket when he went up to the house and gave the homeowner some song-and-dance about desperately needing to use their phone or get a drink of water or talk to them about Jesus or whatever it took to get them to let him in for a minute. And of course the cops know their "confidential informants" are about as reliable as a two-dollar wristwatch but as long as they'll testify to whatever the cops tell them to testify to, who gives a shit?

  • John||

    They were plain clothes cops. If they thought people were dealing drugs in the house, why didn't they try to do a controled buy? A cop actually buying from the dealer is the gold standard for drug convictions. Why didn't they send the informant back to the house to buy some more? Why didn't they surveil the house and see if people were going in and out at odd times or there was a single bit of evidence to corroborate the informant's claims? Where are the drugs the informant alledgedly bought?

    God fucking forbid anyone do any police work or anything. Better to just kick down doors and murder people letting God sort them out.

  • modurhead||

    +1 seems like a poor excuse to murder and steal "legally"

  • Longtobefree||

    Perhaps they should look in the houses of the officers involved?
    Is there any chance that drug deals are done without large amounts of cash?
    Oh, wait. The whole thing was bullshit.

    I propose a constitutional amendment that all warrants based on the word of a CI require that CI to appear in person before the judge so his veracity can be determined directly. And all CI based warrants require the concurrence of two judges.

  • Still Curmudgeoned (Nunya)||

    That sounds like a pretty good idea.

  • perlchpr||

    I propose a constitutional amendment that all warrants based on the word of a CI require that CI to appear in person before the judge so his veracity can be determined directly. And all CI based warrants require the concurrence of two judges.

    A good start, but there are way too many complicit judges for this to really be much of a barrier.

  • modurhead||

    how about a constitutional amendment that state the police are to be used for emergencies only and executing people in their war on drugs isnt an emergency

  • Doug1031||

    Sad. These people were in their own home minding their own business. No knock raids are a chance for the little boys to get the big toys out and go play warrior.

    You had the address, so you had to know the people were middle aged people who were the owners and had lived there for a very long time and had almost no past criminal history, much less anything violent or drug related. What are the chances that these two street pushers as they were called managed to have never had any Law Enforcement contact despite being involved in the selling and use of Heroin. ZERO CHANCE.

    WRONG HOUSE.

    No knocks put everyone including bystanders at risk. Put the house under surveillance, when they leave pull them over. Or just send a couple of uniforms up and knock and ask them to come outside. I doubt that a hail of gunfire will follow. A Cartel Safe house maybe, two fifty year old homeowners with no criminal past, they open the door.

    Wrong house. The story will die no outlet will pursue it and since we accept it on it goes. It's real easy because El Chiefo has a big mouth. It was a problem house. Somebody subpoena the call records to that problem house. I bet it is zero.

    STAY WITH THE STORY SULLUM. ITS NOT A POLITICAL ISSUE, IT IS MORALITY.

  • Doug Heffernan||

    This piece posted on reason just a day before reason posts another piece describing Houston as "Trounc[ing] L.A. and New York City in New Ranking of America's Freest Metros".

    This kind of crap happens less in NY and L.A., probably because of less freedom (of the police to kill you).

  • Naaman Brown||

    Bill Hutchinson, "Woman among 2 suspects shot dead in Houston drug raid that left 5 police officers wounded", abc News, 29 Jan 2019.

    _The lead investigator broke open the front door.
    _An officer armed with a shotgun entered the home and was attacked by a pit bull.
    _That officer shot and killed the dog.
    _Dennis Tuttle charged from the back of the house firing a .357-caliber Magnum revolver hitting the officer in the shoulder.
    _The officer fell on the sofa.
    _Rhogena Nicholas went towards the officer, reached over him and started making a move for his shotgun.
    _Officers opened fire, killed Nicholas, and engaged Tuttle in a firefight.
    _As officers retreated with their wounded, Tuttle followed and continued to fire at them. He was shot and killed.

    "Unfortunately, some people just don't have respect for the sanctity of life."
    -- Art Acevedo, Houston Police Chief

    "If you're the ones that are out there spreading the rhetoric that police officers are the enemy, just know we've all got your number now, we're going to be keeping track of all of y'all, and we're going to make sure that we hold you accountable every time you stir the pot on our police officers."
    -- Joe Grimaldi, President of the Houston Police Officers Union
    \cont'd\

  • Naaman Brown||

    \cont'd\

    Congressional hearings on Waco 1995:
    "The day of a couple of agents or a couple of detectives walking up to somebody's front door and knocking on a door in three piece suits to execute a warrant of any kind is over . . . "
    -- Victor G. Oboyski, Jr., President of the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association

    Texas Penal Code:
    § 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE.
    (C) The use of force to resist an arrest or search is justified:
    (1) if, before the actor offers any resistance, the peace officer (or person acting at his direction) uses or attempts to use greater force than necessary to make the arrest or search; and
    (2) when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect himself against the peace officer's (or other person's) use or attempted use of greater force than necessary.

    My home state has the same provision on self defense against excessive use of force under color of law.

    Do you call battering down the door and shooting the dog first excessive unnecessary force or do you accept it as the new normal?
    \cont'd\

  • Trainer||

    So a disabled vet who thinks his house is being invade and has one gun continues to shoot at a large group of police officers after they've retreated? I guess they were too busy shooting each other to actually shoot and kill the homeowner immediately.

  • modurhead||

    +1 im sure the hero cops waited for them to bleed out

  • Naaman Brown||

    \cont'd\

    I could quote Karl Hess here, but that would put me on the shit list of the Grimaldis of the Brave New World Order of the Absolute State justifying itself by claiming a monopoly on force,

    Oh, wait. I'm already on a shit list.

    Think Battle of Athens, Tennessee or Matawan, West Virginia.

    It would not be America if it did not produce at least a few men who tire of the *palaver* and take the rifle down from the mantlepiece, to use themselves, or give to the underdog who needs it. Moderation in the pursuit of justice is not a virtue, Extremism in the defense of liberty is not a vice. -- Karl Hess

  • modurhead||

    +1 one day the cops will shoot someone important by mistake and their little jihad on the people will come crashing down on them they will be privatized and disarmed, going back to just answering emergencies like they are supposed to

  • Trainer||

    The police are saying that the white power was heroin but the whole narrative of how they came to target this house seems to have changed.

  • Trainer||

    And where is all the drug paraphernalia? I know there are more ways to use heroin than a needle but it seems to me if you're into it this much, you're mainlining. And if people are coming over to buy and "doing drugs" (according the police narrative) there should have all kinds of stuff lying around. Junkies aren't known for their housekeeping habits.

  • modurhead||

    they seem to imply that as long as something was "illegal" that makes it OK for the cops to execute these people and steal all their stuff

  • DonMynack2||

    This couple was definitely swatted by somebody.

    https://tinyurl.com/y8k9pqjm

    Who exactly was the "mom" who alerted the cops about the "drug house" with no drugs in it?

  • Trainer||

    Hmm...one of the TV stations said HPD said the powder was heroin. This article says it was cocaine. How hard is it to get a story straight? Heroin or cocaine? 5 officers at the raid, 9, 12 or around a dozen? They cased the house for three days or sent sent in the informant the day before?

  • modurhead||

    the media lets the cops get a free pass, the cops wanted to murder these people the moment someone told them there was a gun in the house

  • jagjr||

    you need to look at the definition of swatting again. that's calling in a crisis in progress, tricking police into believing that emergency circumstances exist & they need to use max force for a takedown. they don't seek warrants for that.

    this was either a CI lying (possibly to settle a previous score??), or police officers creating evidence to obtain a warrant that did not match the actual circumstances of the situation.

  • Augustine||

    I believe it could actually be worse than that scenario. I suspect that rather than settling a score this was just everyday running up your numbers for fame and promotions. And the way that the other cops just automatically lie to cover up this execution is terrifying. Made up informants. Made up neighbors grateful for the executions. Made up guns and drugs. I suspect this is nothing but standard operating procedure.

  • Disenchanted libertarian||

    So, it was safe for the informant to knock on the door to make a drug purchase, but not safe for the cops to knock on the door to serve a warrant?

  • modurhead||

    thats #coplogic for you..they also act like they want to eradicate drugs but they are willing to attack and even kill people to stop them from flushing even the smallest amount

  • modurhead||

    thats #coplogic for you..they also act like they want to eradicate drugs but they are willing to attack and even kill people to stop them from flushing even the smallest amount

  • modurhead||

    nothing but a police hit squad sent to execute these people who were only suspected of a nonviolent petty crime , thats the definition of terrorism, id bet all the cops identify as "christians" too and that makes them christian extremists

  • jagjr||

    "the evidence against them seems to have been limited to the word of a paid confidential informant who claimed to have seen drugs and a handgun that were mysteriously gone the following day, even though police supposedly were watching the house in the interim."

    & now both suspect individuals are dead, and unable to defend themselves in court or anywhere else ...

  • Augustine||

    Let's just cut this bullshit. The police could easily have performed a felony traffic stop when the people left the house and then executed a warrant upon the place of residence. The truth of the matter is the cops like to play cowboy and bust down doors. They get off on that. This BS needs to stop.

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