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Supreme Court

Gorsuch, Barrett, and Roberts Raise Fatal Objections to Trump's Birthright Citizenship Order

Understanding the Supreme Court’s oral arguments in Trump v. Barbara.

Damon Root | 4.2.2026 9:47 AM

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Protester sign outside of the U.S. Supreme Court | Credit: Abaca Press/Douliery Olivier/Abaca/Sipa USA/Newscom
(Credit: Abaca Press/Douliery Olivier/Abaca/Sipa USA/Newscom)

President Donald Trump made history yesterday at the U.S. Supreme Court when he became the first sitting president on record to attend a SCOTUS oral argument. Unfortunately for Trump, his presence, however attention-grabbing, is unlikely to sway the outcome of a case that he has always deserved to lose.

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At issue in yesterday's oral arguments in Trump v. Barbara is the president's 2025 executive order that purports to deny the constitutional guarantee of birthright citizenship to U.S.-born children whose parents are unlawful immigrants or lawful temporary visitors.

According to Trump's solicitor general, John Sauer, the overriding factor for determining birthright citizenship should be whether or not a newborn's parents were "domiciled" in the United States, a term he defined to mean "lawful presence with the intent to remain permanently."

Yet as Justice Neil Gorsuch pointed out, "you don't see domicile mentioned in the [congressional] debates" over the 14th Amendment, which enshrined birthright citizenship in the Constitution. "We have the—the child's citizenship, and the focus of the clause is on the child, not on the parents," Gorsuch said. "The absence" of the word domicile—a word which is the centerpiece of Trump's entire case—"is striking."

Gorsuch also noted another fatal flaw in the government's position. "Today, you can point to laws against immigration that are much more restrictive than they were in 1868," Gorsuch said. "If somebody showed up here in 1868 and established domicile, that was perfectly fine without respect to anything, any—any immigration laws." Which means, Gorsuch told Sauer, "why wouldn't we, even if we were to apply your own test, come to the conclusion that the fact that someone might be illegal is immaterial?"

In other words, if the Supreme Court sticks to the circa-1868 meaning of domicile, which Sauer himself said that it should, then that term, as originally understood at the time of the 14th Amendment's ratification, would cut against Trump's executive order.

Justice Amy Coney Barrett then raised an even more ominous issue for the Trump administration. What about "the children of slaves who were brought here unlawfully…in defiance of laws forbidding the slave trade," Barrett asked Sauer. "You can imagine that their parents were not only brought here in violation of United States law but were here against their will and so maybe felt allegiance to the countries to where they were from." And "let's say they don't have an intent to stay. They want to escape and go back the second they can. Are they domiciled?"

This was a very dangerous query for Sauer, and his struggle to respond to it coherently suggested that he understood the peril he was in. After all, if the Trump administration's theory is correct, and "domicile" requires "the intent to remain permanently," as Sauer said it did, then the U.S.-born child of an enslaved person who wanted "to escape and go back" would clearly not qualify for birthright citizenship under the Trumpian view. And the descendants of such persons, born today, would also be ineligible for birthright citizenship under the Trumpian view, if applied retroactively.

The reason why that logic is so disastrous for Trump is because the Trump administration has repeatedly conceded that one of the undeniable purposes of the 14th Amendment was to make citizens out of all enslaved black Americans and their descendants. Yet if Trump's theory wins, that one undeniable purpose of the amendment would be nullified because the U.S.-born children of some enslaved people would not qualify for birthright citizenship after all.

That line of questioning from Barrett might be enough by itself to spell legal doom for Trump's executive order.

Chief Justice John Roberts offered another damning analysis of the Trump administration's case. After Sauer claimed that "the 19th century Framers of this amendment" could "not possibly" have approved of "birth tourism" or other supposed modern problems that have been allegedly caused by birthright citizenship, Roberts observed that such contemporary policy arguments have zero bearing on the case at hand. "You do agree," Roberts pressed Sauer, "that that has no impact on the legal analysis before us?"

Sauer struggled a bit in response to that one, too, before finally asserting that "we're in a new world now," one "where 8 billion people are one plane ride away from having a—a child who's a U.S. citizen."

"Well, it's a new world," Roberts replied. "It's the same Constitution."

That reply by the chief justice perfectly illustrated the bankruptcy of Trump's entire position. Instead of following the straightforward text and history of the 14th Amendment, the Trump administration wants the Supreme Court to adopt a tortured and unpersuasive new theory that rests on a different word that appears nowhere in the text of the Constitution and, as Gorsuch noted, is also strikingly absent from the relevant congressional debates. At the same time, in a case that's supposed to be about the original meaning of a constitutional provision, the Trump administration is wasting the Court's time with non-legal, modern-day anti-immigration arguments that, as the chief justice pointed out, are totally irrelevant to the originalist and textualist analysis that the Supreme Court is actually performing.

Gorsuch, Barrett, and Roberts probably hold the swing votes in this case. If they remain as skeptical of Trump's position as they sounded during oral arguments, the president's executive order is in big trouble.

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NEXT: War and/or Peace

Damon Root is a senior editor at Reason and the author of A Glorious Liberty: Frederick Douglass and the Fight for an Antislavery Constitution (Potomac Books). His next book, Emancipation War: The Fall of Slavery and the Coming of the Thirteenth Amendment (Potomac Books), will be published in June 2026.

Supreme CourtBirthright CitizenshipImmigrationDonald Trump14th AmendmentTrump AdministrationExecutive orderConstitutionCivil LibertiesLaw & GovernmentNeil GorsuchAmy Coney BarrettJohn Roberts
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  1. Rev Arthur L kuckland (5-30-24 banana republic day)   2 months ago

    There is no such thing as birthright citizenship. If retard spic jumps across the border, pops out a child, the child is the citizen of retard spics country of origin

    1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

      Doesn't even require that as we see with china. Can just take a boat to an island that's a protectorate and make the claim.

      Basically reason condones the idea that a foreign nation can attempt control at US institutions merely through crossing the border and popping out new citizens. Thr US has no say in the matter.

      1. Murray Rothtard   2 months ago

        We do have a lot of say in the matter. We can amend the constitution. The process is very straightforward.

        You sound like the lefty Marxist gun grabbers who are pissed off about the 2nd ammendment. "Why do we have no say on gun control?!?!"

        You do. Shut the fuck up, and try to amend the constitution the right way. Executive fiat is bs.

        1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

          The amendment doesnt need to be amended retard. The wording and discussions of congress at the time are clear.

          Just because you struggle with English doesnt mean they did at the time.

          Ironically you make the claim that changing it to full birth right, not the wording or intention, done through courts and basically ignoring the wording is the preferable manner.

          Under jurisdiction was intentionally added for a reason. Meaning full jurisdiction. The US already had claims of territorial jurisdiction prior to 14a. So adding it would be superfluous in your world. Yet the intentional adding of it shows what their intention was.

          Stay retarded.

          1. Leo Kovalensky II   2 months ago

            Even if this is the case, which it's not, where has Congress delegated the power over naturalization (Art 1, Sec 8) to the President to be able to dictate by Executive Order?

            1. IceTrey   2 months ago

              The State Department is under the Executive branch so Trump was merely clarifying the law.

              1. Nelson   2 months ago

                The State Department is part of the Legislature? Because Article I powers are held by the Legislature, not the Executive.

                Article I, Section 8 (naturalization) is Congress’ power. The president doesn’t control it, never mind an inferior officer like the Secretary of State.

                Also, the President doesn’t have the power to “clarify” the law. The Judicial branch resolves disputes about the meaning of laws.

                You do understand how the American government works, right? The whole “checks and balances” thing that was designed to prevent a tyrant? Does that ring a bell?

                1. IceTrey   2 months ago

                  The Executive enforces the law so it has a say in how they're enforced. Biden said don't enforce the immigration laws and there was no problem with that.

                  1. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

                    Nelson will come to any conclusion he has to if it contributes to wide open borders and no ability y to remove illegals.

                  2. Syd Henderson   2 months ago

                    They do have a say, but they don't get to revoke American citizenship from people who are citizens by the 14th Amendment.

                    1. IceTrey   2 months ago

                      Anyone who is already a citizen would be grandfathered in it would only effect future cases.

                    2. Nelson   2 months ago

                      So it’s OK to be unconstitutional in the future? You have strange beliefs about the Constitution.

          2. Murray Rothtard   2 months ago

            "The amendment doesnt need to be amended retard. The wording and discussions of congress at the time are clear."

            we actually 100% agree here. the wording and discussions of congress at the time are very clear. and for 150 years, everyone has agreed on how insanely simply clear they were.

            And then Steven Miller gave Trump and all you tards brain worms, and here we are. All of a sudden the plain obvious text means the opposite. you really sound like the fuckin lefties telling me i need to be part of a well-regulated militia in order to own a handgun. it's right there in the text!!

            1. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

              For the bulk of US history the 2A was about militias. It was only in the 2008 when the Republican SCOTUS changed the meaning of 2A to individual.

              1. SRG2   2 months ago

                That may well be true, but 2A recognised a pre-existing right KBA and though it provided a rationale for preventing it from being infringed, the existence of the right was not conditioned on membership of a militia.

                The BoR does not, after all, grant rights.

                1. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

                  The 2A did not condition firearms on being in the militia. The 2A protected the militias themselves. No individual right at all.

                  1. Leo Kovalensky II   2 months ago

                    This is as dumb of a take as Jesse's with respect to 14A.

                  2. Azathoth!!   2 months ago

                    The Second says that because militias are necessary to maintaining a free state the government is not permitted to impede citizens ownership of arms.

                    It is about citizen ownership of arms, not militias

                    Because the founders were all too aware of the power of limiting individual ownership of weapons.

                  3. Get To Da Chippah   2 months ago

                    This is as retarded as thinking the First Amendment's freedom of the press applies only to people with the right job title.

                    Rights are not granted and revoked based on your profession.

                  4. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

                    Do you know what dependent clauses are?

                  5. Zeb   2 months ago

                    That's just wrong. "The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed" is the operative phrase, pretty fucking clear and has nothing to do with militias. Also, "the militia" is all able bodied people capable of bearing arms.

                    1. IceTrey   2 months ago

                      Able bodied men between 17 and 45.

                    2. Zeb   2 months ago

                      THat's what one law says. The 2nd may be taking a broader view. In any case, it doesn't matter because the right is "of the people".

                  6. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

                    No faggot, not even close. You’re a stupid bitch. And as usual, you just puke out democrat lies with nothing to back it up.

                    Commit suicide.

                    https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/health-services-benefits/medical-assistance-dying.html

                  7. TrickyVic (old school)   2 months ago

                    ""No individual right at all.""

                    ""the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.""

                    So "people" does not equate to individuals?

                  8. SRG2   2 months ago

                    As the BoR was passed all at once, one should understand the same term to have the same meaning in different amendments. In 4A, it says, "The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated". It is impossible for this not to be an individual right.

                    Now I think that 2A is in dire need of amending, but while it says what it says, that's what it says.

              2. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

                And molly pushes another interpretive lie to lie about this one. Amazing. Lol.

                1. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

                  It’s just mindless democrat/CCP bullshit.

              3. Squirrelloid   2 months ago

                That's objectively not true. Miller, the first 2nd amendment case the supreme court heard, recognized the right to bear arms as an individual right.

                (And indeed, Miller is fatal to your entire position, as the case hinged on whether the arms in question would be useful *in a military context*. ie, the court then held that it is the bearing of military weapons that is protected. Now, the court made a factual error in deciding that a sawed-off shotgun was not a militarily useful weapon (it was, it's what a trench gun is), and therefore ruled against the plaintiff. But the reasoning upheld not only the individual right to bear arms, but for that individual to bear arms that are useful on a battlefield).

              4. Rossami   2 months ago

                Not only irrelevant but wrong. Only after the 1913(?) Miller decision and until 2008 did anyone even think to argue that the 2A was confined to "militias".

            2. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

              And again full of ignorance and retardation.

              It was clear. It was meant for slaves. Even until ark it was clear it didnt apply to children of immigrants. Even until around the 1940s it didnt include visitors or those here illegally.

              Every step of the way changed through a living constitution.

              Why was the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 needed when they could just step off the rez and birth citizens retard?

              Why did the Mexican repatriation happen in the 1930s retard?

              We get it. Those who have zero historical knowledge believe untrue things. Youre a clear example of it.

              1. Squirrelloid   2 months ago

                Can you be more wrong? I don't think so.

                First of all, in 1868, there was no such thing as 'being here illegally'. If you showed up, you could stay, legally. There were no immigration controls.

                Children of immigrants were obviously citizens. No immigrant who had children in this country got them naturalized. That they weren't already citizens were unthinkable.

                Wong Kim Ark was only necessary because a bunch of racists in Congress passed the Chinese Exclusion Act, which denied citizenship to chinese-americans. (The Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 is the first notable law restricting immigration - that's 100 years with no immigration restrictions). The Supreme Court, in Ark, told congress to get stuffed on the question of citizenship for people born in this country.

                Second, even before the 14th amendment, birthright citizenship existed. Anyone born in the US who wasn't a slave was a citizen. So while the purpose was to make former slaves into citizens, that was only because it was only slaves who were denied citizenship from birth. The language swept more broadly because it was including slaves into a right already held by everybody else.

                The Indian Citizenship Act was needed to make citizens of those American Indians who were born on reservations. They could always have had children off the reservations, and those children would have been citizens. The point was to include those who weren't born off the reservations.

                The mexican repatriation is far too late to say anything meaningful about the 14th amendment. But it was also largely voluntary migration by people who were inarguably american citizens. Mexico actually encouraged them to go to Mexico by offering land. Only a small minority were officially deported. (And this of course happened in a context where restrictive immigration policies were becoming increasingly prevalent).

                I mean, you get something right. "Those who have zero historical knowledge believe untrue things." The problem is - that's you.

                1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

                  Lol. Do you know even people at ellis Island could never ejected? Checked for disease. Could be deported for being a public charge? Do you want me to list the number of forced deportations for various groups? Such as the chinese?

                  Again. My thesis holds true. Those ignorant to actual history continue to believe untrue things. You are another example.

                  Even in your post on the Indian citizenship you are wrong. As Indians born off reservations were not considered citizens prior to the act. Again. A simple education of reality would save you embarrassment.

                  And then how you dismiss the 1930 repatriation is the chefs kiss of your retardation. Lol!

                  God damn man. Stop being cocksure when youre so fucking wrong lol.

                  1. Squirrelloid   2 months ago

                    What does Ellis Island have to do with immigration law in 1868? Ellis Island doesn't begin receiving immigrants until 1892.

                    There were almost no restrictions on immigration in 1868. Indeed, the 1864 immigration act promoted immigration rather than restrict it. It wasn't until 1882 that we get a restrictive immigration law in the Chinese Exclusion Act.

                    You're the one believing untrue things here.

                    Indian Citizenship:
                    By the time of the 1924 Act, 2/3 of American Indians already held US citizenship. A non-exhaustive list of pathways to gaining citizenship included: military service, marrying a non-Indian husband, detribalization (assimilation into regular society), and the Dawes Act. And as a general principle, the exclusion of citizenship was held to apply to "Indians not taxed" - if they were taxed, they were considered subject to US jurisdiction.

                    Many of the 1/3 of Indians who didn't have citizenship in 1924, didn't want it.

                    Can you point to an Indian born off a reservation (post-14A) that was not a citizen? I'll wait.

                    Mexican Repatriation:
                    I'm absolutely correct on the 1930 repatriation. Most of it was voluntary. Many were american citizens (40-60%). Of the 300,000-2,000,000 'repatriated' people, only ~80,000 were deported. The rest went voluntarily, and much of the movement was economically-driven. (It was during the great depression, and increasing anti-mexican racism was making it harder to get work in the US with Mexican ancestry, regardless of citizenship.)

                    I know of no federal deportation during the Mexican Repatriation that deported an American citizen by birth. I suppose you have an example? Otherwise I'm not sure what your point is.

          3. BenF   2 months ago

            I hope more immigrants - especially brown ones - move in next to you, you xenophobic piece of shit.

            1. EISTAU Gree-Vance   2 months ago

              Much better than them moving in next to you, right, you virtue signaling piece of shit?

            2. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

              I cant make an intelligent argument so youre racist!!!! - retards like ben.

            3. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

              And I hope ,you’re tortured and raped to death by those illegal alien gangbangers whose presence here you relentlessly champion. Instead of the innocent peole that have suffered because of you and your commie friends.

          4. Nelson   2 months ago

            “ The wording and discussions of congress at the time are clear.”

            They are. They run opposite to your position, as does the entirety of caselaw in the intervening 150+ years. The article literally references Justices talking about the text and congressional debates during oral arguments. It went very badly for you.

            But I guess your legal knowledge and analysis is superior to that of people who have been doing this their entire adult lives. And that leaves aside the fact that it was three conservative Justices eviscerating your argument.

            “ Meaning full jurisdiction”

            That has never been the meaning. Modern revisionists want to change the meaning to that, but that position has a tradition of over 150 days, while the established and repeatedly affirmed meaning on the opposite side has a tradition of over 150 years.

            Do you actually believe the ridiculous things you pretend are true or have you had your sense of shame surgically removed?

            1. TrickyVic (old school)   2 months ago

              ""Modern revisionists want to change the meaning to that""

              Isn't that basis for the "living constitution"?

              1. Nelson   2 months ago

                No.

        2. Moderation4ever   2 months ago

          You nailed it. The answer for Rev Arthur, Trump and MAGA is a constitutional amendment. Simple and something for them to start work on while they leave the rest of us alone.

          1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

            I like how you retards assume your incorrect reading forces others to clarify. Instead of reading the congressional records at the time and other laws passes at the same time to clarify.

            Fucking retarded parodies.

            KBJ levels of retards.

            1. Leo Kovalensky II   2 months ago

              Or you can read the plain language of the amendment, which is the argument 2A advocates (correctly) use to argue their position.

            2. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

              Another retarded parody has responded. Hi Leo!

              1. Leo Kovalensky II   2 months ago

                I guess we'll see when this one ends up 7-2 or 8-1 against Trump. I suppose it will be the fault of all those "radical lefty lunatic" justices appointed by GW Bush and Trump.

                1. SRG2   2 months ago

                  FWIW as I posted over on VC, I think Alito joins in part and dissents in part. After reading the transcript, I concluded that Alito could decide that children born here of non-residents lawfully present have citizenship, while children born here of people illegally here do not. Thomas probably goes along with that, so, 8-1 counting each part as 1/2,

                  1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

                    This has been trumps entire argument dummy.

                    Focus of Sauer was on temporary and illegal migrants. He isnt arguing against Ark. Yet. Thats the next step.

                    1. Nelson   2 months ago

                      What, after he gets wrecked by three Justices he appointed?

                      If his vitriol when they ruled against him before was disgusting, imagine how loathsome he will be when they choose the Constitution over him regarding his signature issue.

          2. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

            Not needed. Children of two illegals are still illegals. It’s plainly written, unless you’re a democrat.

        3. Azathoth!!   2 months ago

          There is no need for a new amendment.

          This is very simple.

          If a person in the US but not a citizen has access to recourse through a foreign embassy they are not 'subject to the jurisdiction'. They are subject to the treaty terms their country has agreed to with regard to the US.

          It's that simple.

          1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

            It really is that simple and shown to be the correct reading up until the 1950s when interpretation changed.

            1. Leo Kovalensky II   2 months ago

              Wong Kim Ark was decided in 1898. That's the interpretation you are arguing against.

              1. Nelson   2 months ago

                No, they are arguing against reality. Almost across the board, but particularly on birthright citizenship.

                1. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

                  And you argue for a borderless global hegemony of Neo Marxists.

        4. LIBtranslator   2 months ago

          Now would be a good time to resume collecting signatures for the Equal Rights Amendment. By the time the Libertarian Party formed after Fuhrer Tricky Dick put America back on slavery and off of gold, Comstockist bigotry had sparked huge support for such an amendment. Nixon's Court saw that Libertarian electoral vote and opted via Roe v Wade to buy time until a future Christian National Socialist could resume Ku-Klux Comstockism and military enslavement, and here it is today. Patience, papism and perseverance trumped eternal vigilance.

      2. IceTrey   2 months ago

        It's supposed to be illegal to get a tourist visa to come have a child but it's never enforced.

      3. Ghatanathoah   2 months ago

        So you are concerned that foreign nations might send a large amount of pregnant women across the border so they can give birth to new citizens, wait eighteen years for those babies to reach adulthood, hope they remain loyal to their mother's country instead of the USA, and then hope there might be enough of them to cast a deciding vote in a major election? Or maybe wait longer, have them all go to college and get US government jobs, and then have them secretly control them for their mother's country, and hope that none of them decide to just ignore the foreign nation's instructions and enjoy their cushy government jobs for the rest of their lives? That is the most insanely idiotic thing I have ever heard.

        I would say you are a colossal moron, but that is giving you too much credit. Morons have no choice but to be stupid. The fact that you dreamt up a plan so fantastically stupid yet fiendishly complex indicates that you actively make a choice every day to believe stupid things, even though it is within your capacity to do otherwise.

    2. Murray Rothtard   2 months ago

      Being consistently wrong seems to make you really angry.

      1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

        Lol! From the group of retards that has been wrong on 90% of appeals court rulings. Hilarious.

        1. Stupid Government Tricks   2 months ago

          You ignore that Trump has only appealed something like 5% of his district court losses. 90% of 5% means he has been right only 4.5% of the time, and wrong 95.5% of the time.

          1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

            This is retarded sarc like construction. My god man. When you get butt hurt you go full sarc.

            You do realize that appeals court rulings and scotus rulings affect more than just one rulings right? Right??

            Lol.

            You also make the retarded assumption that if a case doesnt make it to appeals, trump was wrong. Which is even more retarded of a take.

            So we have appeals rulings effecting hundreds of rulings, you state that those count against trump. Then you count cases not yet gone to appeals as trump being wrong.

            My god man. Fucking stop going full sarc with your retarded takes because youre butthurt.

            1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

              I'll give you a recent example sarcTG, because you seem incapable of rational thought.

              A month or so ago reason had multiple articles about the 400 rulings against trump regarding bails for illegals in Minnesota. The appeals court just ruled bail is not required for illegals under INA. This is after the 5th ruled the same. Effecting hundreds of other attempts at the same inferior courts.

              So with 2 rulings there are 1000+ rulings overturned.

              Yet in your sarc like construction trump only has 2 wins in 1000 instead of all 1000.

              Youre a real fucking idiot at times.

              1. The Average Dude (Who's Smarter Than You)   2 months ago

                'Desperation' is a stinky cologne Jesse.

                1. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

                  Yes, so you should stop wearing it, traitor.

              2. Squirrelloid   2 months ago

                uh, no. It does not overturn previous decisions besides the ones heard on appeal.

                It will affect future decisions in courts below that appeals court. But existing decisions stand unless they were challenged in the appeal (or are separately appealed and reversed).

                Do you not understand how the courts actually work?

                1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

                  My god man. Stop proving youre retarded. Thats the entire purpose of appeals. To set the standards and application of interpretation.

                  1. Squirrelloid   2 months ago

                    Sure, but if there's 1000 prior cases, and 1 gets appealed and overturned, that doesn't overturn the other 999 cases. Those decisions stand.

                    Future cases will need to follow the appellate decision.

                    But your claim "So with 2 rulings there are 1000+ rulings overturned" is just wrong. None of those 1000+ rulings were overturned except the 2 heard on appeal.

                    1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

                      You said this out loud lol.

                      Let me guess. Youre now going to attempt that the next step at adjudication means youre right despite that being a small step to overturn after the decision.

                      Remind me how many of J6 had to go back to the appeals court after the J6 scotus ruling.

                      Being as retarded as sarcTG. In every one of those cases the ruling is void. INA can and did sweep up many of them post appeals.

            2. Stupid Government Tricks   2 months ago

              Didn't rebut squat. Didn't answer the comment. Nothing's changed.

            3. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

              They’re completely gone. We just need to get rid of the traitors now. Talk time has been over for a long time. We just need enough people, to figure that out and get doing on eliminating the democrat party, and prosecuting Marxist seditionists/insurrectionists/traitors.

    3. charliehall   2 months ago

      Love your racist epithets. Proof of your bigotry.

      And it is clear you never heard of dual nationality. It is legal in the US and most other countries.

  2. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

    Damon is coping pretty hard. Because those 3 also recognized the absurdity of KBJs argument which mirrors the absurdity of damons prior takes.

    “I can also rely on them if my wallet is stolen to, you know, under Japanese law, go and prosecute the person who has stolen it. So there’s this relationship based on — even though I’m a temporary traveler, I’m just on vacation in Japan, I’m still locally owing allegiance in that sense. Is that the right way to think about it?”

    The congressional record didnt use the term domicile yells Damon. No. But it talks about complete jurisdiction. And to get to where Damon wants to go you have to believe the idiocy of KBJ right there.

    Territorial jurisdiction is practiced by all countries. This doesnt make them legal vassals of a country. The 3 mentioned recognized this despite their questions on the word domicile.

    Ark involved legal residents. Not illegal ones. Not temporary visitors. In fact laws around the time, which sauer discussed, recognized the same issue.

    Alito and Thomas once again were the most logical in construction.

    The 14a was never even an amendment on immigration. Its purpose was to free and recognize slaves as citizens. Not to br a forward control mechanism.

    Damon knows this, he is just ignorant.

    1. Minadin   2 months ago

      If he knows it, he's not ignorant, he's willfully obtuse.

      1. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

        Delusional is more like it. I wonder what a staff psychologist would think of the Reason staff?

    2. IceTrey   2 months ago

      The 14th is about personal jurisdiction not territorial. Why would they need to put anything about territorial jurisdiction in it?

      1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

        They dont need to. Congressional records made clear it was personal. Even Ark discussed that very point.

        Only the leftists think it means territorial. Like KBJ tried to argue.

  3. Minadin   2 months ago

    It has just been revealed that 320,000 children, nearly 9% of all U.S. births, were born to unauthorized or temporary migrant mothers.

    Data from 2023.

    https://x.com/jackunheard/status/2039450860506288205

    And of course, they then immediately qualify for welfare programs (at a much higher rate than babies born to citizens and legal immigrants):

    https://x.com/acathleen5/status/2039479578142404633

    1. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

      In the US we try not to let our baby citizens be homeless and starving. Look how low MAGAs are when they are for babies being homeless and starving.

      1. Get To Da Chippah   2 months ago

        Appeal to emotion fallacy noted.

        1. charliehall   2 months ago

          Okay, baby murderer.

      2. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

        We try not to let our citizens be raoed, murdered, and stolen from. Look how Chinese red guard are for people being raped, murdered and stolen from.

      3. Earth-based Human Skeptic   2 months ago

        OMG you are fucking stupid and evil. Conservatives want babies to starve? Is that why more conservatives donate to local charities who actually feed and clothe families?

        But the liberal way is better, since (1) they prevent hungry children via abortion and (2) government redistribution is way better than that voluntary charity stuff.

        1. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

          Tony would steal food from the mouths of starving infants if it helped him afford to go shoe shopping.

  4. Spiritus Mundi   2 months ago

    Gorsuch, Barrett, and Roberts Raise Fatal Objections to Trump's Birthright Citizenship Order...

    Meanwhile, KBJ quietly eats a crayon in the corner and looks around for loose wallets.

    1. B G   2 months ago

      Someone apparently forgot to remind them that they're just supposedly on the court to "rubber stamp" the MAGA agenda.

      It'll be funny if the "conservative" wing votes to override trump's EO, will KBJ be able to figure out whether to assent out of hatred for trump, or to dissent out of a need to oppose Comey-Barret and Roberts? Or will she write a separate opinion stating that because she's not a trained cartogropher, she doesn't understand the concept of a border, a nation, or citizenship anyway?

  5. Moderation4ever   2 months ago

    Birthright citizenship is well established in the US by amendment, laws, and court decisions. Those who wish to end it have no easy way to change the law. There is only the hard work of a Constitutional Amendment but I don't see "hard work" as feature of the MAGA movement.

    1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

      Which is why a law had to be passed after the 14a to include two other classes of people born domestically in the US.

      You retards still cant answer why those laws were needed if your claims are true.

      Or explain why repatriation of Mexicans was allowed in the 1900s including their children.

      You just make up an incorrect theory and yell it was always that way. Arguments from ignorance.

      1. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

        In 1868 most Indians lived on Reservations that had their own laws separate from the US. They were not subject to the jurisdiction of the US.

        1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

          All they had to do was step off the rez. Thats your argument dumdum.

        2. IceTrey   2 months ago

          It wasn't about where they were born it was about them being under tribal government.

          1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

            This. Squirrel made the same incorrect point above as molly. They werent citizens even if born off the rez.

        3. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

          A decade of slapping you around and correcting you, yet you still don’t understand what ‘jurisdiction’ means in the context of the 14th Amendment.

          Stupid, stupid, pinko faggot

        4. charliehall   2 months ago

          Correct. Many Indian nations had slavery that did not end until the federal government negotiated treaties with them after the ratification of the 13th Amendment.

    2. LIBtranslator   2 months ago

      Sadly, MAGAts, like other parasites, would rather leech off of fellow citizens than do actual work.

  6. Snowcrash   2 months ago

    A case that shows how broken the US political system is.

    The administration is trying to force through a blatantly unconstitutional and broad, potentially disastrously retroactive order because it has burnt any and all legislative bridges that would solve the supposed "birth tourism" problem through the means it is supposed to - congress.

    And when it does die in the eventual SCOTUS decision, the administration will rail against the (very correct) SCOTUS decision, instead of looking inwards on why it even attempted such maximalist crap in the first place.

    1. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

      There is no need to pass laws to deal with "birth tourism". It is already legal for CBP to deny entry to pregnant women.

      1. Snowcrash   2 months ago

        Well in theory one could claim asylum and not be turned away at the border (currently). Not a lawyer of course but I don't know the super specifics of any case.

        Regardless, I am very, very unconvinced that "birth tourism" is an actual apt issue. Especially by "enemies of the US", when most of the people from i.e. Latin America want to live in the US. When it pertains to "Chinese billionaires buying citizenship", as Trump claims, maybe he should first end his "Golden Visa" program which allows exactly that behavior, if it so vexes him.

        1. mad.casual   2 months ago

          Not a lawyer of course

          You don't have to say it. We know.

          1. Snowcrash   2 months ago

            Knowing when to admit one's biases and unknowables is a source of strength that you could learn from.

            1. mad.casual   2 months ago

              Walking around pronouncing "I'm not a lying sack of shit!" is not an admission, nor a strength, and does not make one honest.

            2. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

              You got the wrong lesson from ‘1984’. Ignorance is NOT
              Strength.

            3. LIBtranslator   2 months ago

              Nutjob's choice of sockmask announces its attitude toward reasoning. There is a Mute button right above its eructation, used by all libertarians who subscribe. You can also mute MAGAt infiltrator comments before flushing them and thereby provide an additional service to fellow subscribers.

        2. LIBtranslator   2 months ago

          Anyone approaching the border is required to download a CIS app and fill out a lengthy form grovelling for asylum in advance. But most refugees are refugees precisely because prohibitionism in its Christian National Socialist mutation has invaded THEIR country, bought their politicians, packed bureaucracies with murdering thugs and wrecked the economy. By draining them of confiscated loot and dumping U.S. made cigarettes and booze as replacements for millennial preferences, these waves of desperate refugees are products of Congressional enactments beginning in the TR, Hoover and Reagan Administrations.

    2. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

      The EO was not retroactive. When you get the very first thing in your argument incorrect, we can tell you have no interest in truth or analysis.

    3. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

      Your comment shows that your. Ind is broken. Trump is 100% correct on this.

  7. TJJ2000   2 months ago

    Perfect example of ?honorable? justices not have the common-sense of a grade school-er.

    "After enactment of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 by overriding a presidential veto,[20][21] some members of Congress supported the Fourteenth Amendment in order to eliminate doubts about the constitutionality of the Civil Rights Act of 1866"

    The 14th Amendment was literally a Constitutional Amendment for the Civil Rights Act of 1866. What exactly says the CRA 1866?

    "all persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power"

    Common-Sense 101. If you are a subject of Mexico, Iran, etc, etc... You do not get 'born' as a US citizens. This is simple common-sense only diluted by agenda driven BS ignorance. The only way subject-of (national identity) can be switched is via naturalization process utilized as a power of congress.

    1. Snowcrash   2 months ago

      BS ignorance indeed, because you're completely unaware of the 1898 SCOTUS decision that decided exactly what you say is "BS". Specifically that a person born in the US and subject to a foreign power (China) is actually indeed a US citizen:

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Wong_Kim_Ark

      1. Dillinger   2 months ago

        yes yes you have the special cite proving everyone wrong.

        1. Snowcrash   2 months ago

          I don't, the Supreme Court did. I am simply reading things before posting.

          1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

            You didnt read it or you would have noticed the class in question in Ark and not applied it to visitors and illegals. You didnt actually read it.

            1. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

              Of course he didn’t. And whose sock is he? Jeffy? Shreek?

        2. mad.casual   2 months ago

          The cite that he *thinks* proves everyone wrong.

          Like SCOTUS hasn't, even recently, looked at the fuller context and decided "Holy Shit! There *isn't* actually a federally protected right to abortion or affirmative action or be unquesitonably subject to federal administrative bodies or be free from taxation without even being physically present..."

          1. Snowcrash   2 months ago

            SCOTUS debated Wong kim ark and any split decision will come from their individual readings of it. Of course they're looking at the fuller context. You can read this article as well as the transcript of the oral hearings to understand how they read it and why they are so hostile to the government's case (or sympathetic, in the cases of Alito and Thomas)

            1. mad.casual   2 months ago

              You can read this article as well as the transcript of the oral hearings to understand how they read it and why they are so hostile to the government's case (or sympathetic, in the cases of Alito and Thomas)

              If you actually read the transcript first, hostile is a subjective interpretation and the citation of the article is a biased reading affirming the preferred interpretation.

              As indicated below, you don't care about due process or objective interpretations or equality, you care about your preferred narratives and that your perceived opposition loses. That's neither moral nor just and even undermines your invocation of precedence.

              And the more you do it, the more unscrupulous it makes you look.

              1. Snowcrash   2 months ago

                Ok well we'll see if my subjective reading is accurate in a couple of months. In the meanwhile, I disagree with your subjective opinion of my arguments.

                1. mad.casual   2 months ago

                  Ok well we'll see if my subjective reading is accurate in a couple of months.

                  No we won't. You won't be here in a couple of months.

                  1. Snowcrash   2 months ago

                    Oh I've been around, I just don't always engage in comment sections. I will gloat about this eventual decision though.

                    1. mad.casual   2 months ago

                      No you haven't. We can all see your member ID and know how recently you showed up.

                      And, now, pretty solid on the point that you don't even really care about honesty.

                    2. Snowcrash   2 months ago

                      I started paying for reason this past year. I have been reading reason for over a decade. I don't really see your argument, if you ever had one besides reactionary contrarianism.

                    3. mad.casual   2 months ago

                      I started paying for reason this past year. I have been reading reason for over a decade.

                      Again, we can all see your member ID.

                    4. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

                      Pinko democrat has to lie about everything and propagandize. Also, water is wet.

      2. TJJ2000   2 months ago

        BS ignorance indeed.
        Are you unaware that SCOTUS didn't write the US Constitution?
        Which is precisely the evil in SCOTUS legislating naturalization from the bench.
        If SCOTUS determines immigrant citizenship why even have a 'naturalization' power for congress at-all.

        1. Snowcrash   2 months ago

          SCOTUS is interpreting the constitution (including the 14th amendment). It did not write it, the framers did. In 1898 it interpreted the 14th amendment to apply to non-US citizens having children in the US in general, and apparently in 2026 it will reaffirm this interpretation.

          1. TJJ2000   2 months ago

            Interpret it as passed or a made-up agenda?

            14A Author - Congressman John Bingham (Congressional Globe, 39th Cong., 1st Sess., June–July 1866), ""The words 'subject to the jurisdiction thereof' are construed, in my judgment, to mean subject to the complete jurisdiction of the United States — that is, to the dominion and protection of the United States, and owing no allegiance to any foreign sovereignty..."

            My goodness. Almost the exact SAME words in the CRA of 1866.

            Those of 'foreign sovereignty' are NOT included in 'born' citizenship.

            1. Snowcrash   2 months ago

              Great, then the Supreme Court will surely indicate so in its opinion accepting the government's position. Surely there will be no counter-argument (i.e. "You find very obscure references to excuse what is a very straightforward text" - or equivalent, from the oral hearings)
              No reason to worry 😉

              1. TJJ2000   2 months ago

                Right. Not as-if SCOTUS hasn't allowed [Na]tional So[zi]al[ism] to destroy the USA. /s
                In complete contrast to the US Constitution.

      3. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

        Ark dealt with legal residency dumdum.

        1. Leo Kovalensky II   2 months ago

          I don't think you understand what Ark held. It doesn't support your position at all. You must only be reading the dissent.

        2. Nelson   2 months ago

          Tell us, Jesse, were there illegal immigrants in 1898? Because it doesn’t seem like they differentiated between legal and illegal immigrants in the Ark decision.

          I wonder why that is?

    2. SRG2   2 months ago

      Common sense 101. Language discussed in Congess but not present in the Amendment was intentionally excluded from the Amendment and hence is not relevant to an understanding of it.

      1. TJJ2000   2 months ago

        LOL....
        "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof"
        It is written right there (^^^^^^^^). Do you see it yet?
        Your agenda drive blind ignorance isn't a case.
        Why do you think those words are part of the 14A? Just to confuse people?

        There is a conceptual difference between "subjected to" and "subject to" which is clarified completely and obviously by the author of the 14A as well as the CRA of 1866 as well as every grammar document under the sun.

        The only think you've got is deception, distortion and BS excuses trying to make a 'right' to invade the USA where no 'right' could even be conferred outside of CRIMINAL intent.

      2. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

        Retard 101 from shrike.

        The terms and subject to the jurisdiction were intentionally added. The US already recognized its territorial jurisdiction. If jurisdiction didnt mean full jurisdiction there was no reason to intentionally add it. It makes the clause redundant.

        1. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

          They really hang their lies on a very dishonest and distorted interpretation of the word ‘jurisdiction’. And they keep raving no matter how many times they are corrected.

    3. windycityattorney   2 months ago

      Then the question that needs asked is if that language "not subject to any foreign power" was available and they wanted the 14th amend language to be interpreted exactly the same... why the fuck didn't they just use the same words? The fact they didn't actually suggests the drafters of the 14th birthright clause purposely made it more expansive.

      As one of the legislators objected "under this language gypsies and other undesirables children would be us citizens just by being born here!" Yes. THAT IS WHAT THE LANGUAGE WE CHOSE WOULD DO and then they enacted it with that language.

      1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

        They used similar language to a law passed just a few years prior dumdum.

        They understood what jurisdiction meant in context. They debated its meaning. They added the clause after debate to get votes to exclude foreigners. This is all in the record.

    4. B G   2 months ago

      "all persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power"

      By KBJ's alleged "logic", everyone is subject to a foreign power because stealing a wallet in Japan will land anyone in a Japanese Jail regardless of their citizenship status... Therefore nobody would be a US Citizen because all of our parents were apparently Japanese...

    5. charliehall   2 months ago

      If you are in the US you are subject to the US not Mexico or any other country.

      Otherwise we could not ever deport an illegal Mexican immigrant back to Mexico!

  8. Dillinger   2 months ago

    I have faith the Supreme Court will not destroy America with one ruling.

    1. Snowcrash   2 months ago

      Same. I have full faith that SCOTUS will not randomly upend ~150 years of precedent just because some president (whose ancestors arrived in this country way after the precedent existed) decided to issue an executive order.

      1. Dillinger   2 months ago

        you can keep your precedent and the Supreme Court can still not ruin America with one ruling I don't care about who is here now

        1. Snowcrash   2 months ago

          Well maybe the government should field a different case then.

          1. Dillinger   2 months ago

            shouldn't matter. nobody should go to law school pass a bar exam and stand in front of the SC telling them "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" means anything other than exactly what it means. the rest of all this is utter nonsense. theater for sake of ego.

            1. Snowcrash   2 months ago

              What DID it mean, in 1898? That is what the SC was arguing. Language changes and therefore such questions are valid. At the time of the 14th amendment for example "immigration" was a distinctly different concept for the US than it is now.

              1. mad.casual   2 months ago

                Language changes and therefore such questions are valid.

                I thought you were invoking 150 yrs. of precedence based on an originalist interpretation of the written word?

                Now you're saying it didn't mean what it used to mean and it needs updated?

                Good thing you made sure to inform us you weren't a lawyer.

                1. Snowcrash   2 months ago

                  I'm saying that "jurisdiction" then did not mean what it does now. The government argues that it does. I agree with you that they need a better lawyer.

                  1. mad.casual   2 months ago

                    If it doesn't mean now what it did then, you would still disagree with the lawyer arguing the opposite.

                    We're now getting to the point that it's past obvious that you don't care about precedent or individual liberty or equality, but you further may not even care about fundamental honesty or your own ideological consistency.

                    1. Snowcrash   2 months ago

                      It does not mean now what it did then. I am arguing with the lawyer stating the opposite. The SCOTUS is too. Surely you can appreciate that instead of flip-flopping your position to win an internet argument. It's past obvious to me that you just care to fling shit instead of engage in dialogue, so I will leave you to play in it by yourself.

                    2. Dillinger   2 months ago

                      ^^ right. theater for sake of ego.

                    3. mad.casual   2 months ago

                      It's past obvious to me that you just care to fling shit instead of engage in dialogue, so I will leave you to play in it by yourself.

                      But, by your own words, you'll be back in a month to gloat.

                      Or did they mean something different then than they do now?

                    4. Snowcrash   2 months ago

                      I will gloat because a precedent that's central to the US, a country I love dearly, is upheld. It's like cheering for the 4th of July.

                    5. TJJ2000   2 months ago

                      Hahahaha... The "4th of July" when the USA kicked out British Invaders?

                    6. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

                      My god man. Make up your mind snow.

                      Is it a precedent or subject to new interpretations? The way you oscillate between the two arguments shows youre not honest.

                    7. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

                      You love government, we love America.

              2. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

                You can read the congressional records. It meant full jurisdiction, no allegiance to another country.

      2. mad.casual   2 months ago

        You realize that if it were Constitutional, it would have 250 yrs. of precedence, right?

        You realize that, if it were 150 yrs. of precedent, then Congress wouldn't have had to legislate on Puerto Rican or Hawaiian or Filipino or Cuban or other citizenship, right?

        You realize that even relatively stupid people can look at Jus Soli citizenship and Jus Sanguinis citizenship and see that one is overtly populist/colonist and the other is overtly nationalist and that, repeatedly in history over the last 150 yrs., various instantiations of the latter have exploited the former to claim governance in places like Czechoslovakia or the Donbas or Sudan, right? They can see that even though places like Greece, Finland, Japan, and Switzerland aren't Jus Soli citizenship countries, that doesn't in any real way make them anti-free market or anti-democratic or anti-liberty or ethnic nationalists; certainly not any moreso than places like Venezuela or Guatemala or Iran that are, right?

        People aren't dumb even if you're iteratively and willfully stupid. Everybody with a home sports team understands the idea of "I don't care who wins as long as [my rival] loses." isn't a fair or egalitarian position, certainly not as fair as "I want to see [my team] win but as long as everybody's playing the same game by the same rules, that's what's important." They can see that the former, rather than the latter, is the motivating factor for maintaining the Jus Soli vs. Jus Sanguinis asymmetry.

        1. Snowcrash   2 months ago

          There's such a thing as AMENDING the constitution. Specifically in this case the 14th amendment.

          I completely disregard the argument of what other countries do re:citizenship. I don't care what they do, they also don't have 1A/2A so they can shove it.

          1. mad.casual   2 months ago

            I completely disregard the argument of what other countries do re:citizenship. I don't care what they do, they also don't have 1A/2A so they can shove it.

            I already said that you don't actually care about human rights, individual liberty, or equality, you don't have to keep affirming it.

            1. Snowcrash   2 months ago

              Aren't you the one arguing for lesser countries with less respect for all of the above?

              1. mad.casual   2 months ago

                I was rather pointed about the fact that I don't consider (e.g.) Switzerland to be a lesser country simply because it practices Jus Sanguinis citizenship.

                1. Snowcrash   2 months ago

                  It's a lesser country because it lacks a constitutional protection of the right to speak freely, like the 1A in the US.

          2. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

            It doesnt need amendment.

            The only reason you think it does is because you leftists have stated it means something different than when it was drafted.

            Ironic you demand others use amendments when you declare it can change just through interpretation.

            1. TrickyVic (old school)   2 months ago

              ""It doesnt need amendment.""

              I think it does. Created by EO, die by EO. The next president can just undo Trump's EO. It needs a better anchor than just an EO.

              1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

                If scotus rules it will take another case to make it up to scotus. Not just an EO.

                This was always the danger of dems fighting for anchor babies.

      3. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

        Why do you idiots keep lying about the 150 years? Posted 2 examples above from the 20s and 30s. My god you people argue from pure ignorance.

    2. Leo Kovalensky II   2 months ago

      A bit dramatic, don't you think. Wong Kim Ark was decided in 1898. Did that destroy America?

      1. TJJ2000   2 months ago

        Lets see. [Na]tional So[zi]al[ism] largely came to the USA from 1912 (FedRes) and the 1920s (FDR).
        That and ignoring the duty to 'shall protect each of them against Invasion'. YES. Why YES it has.
        88%+ of Immigrants vote for a [Na]tional So[zi]alist Empire.
        The USA is not a Nazi-Empire.

        So again; YES, Yes it has and will continue to destroy America.
        ...because [Na]tional So[zi]alist[s] won't LEARN from their refugee mistakes.
        They just conquer and consume then move-on to the next greener pasture to conquer and consume.

      2. Dillinger   2 months ago

        Marbury v. Madison set the whole fucking thing off course

        1. SMP0328   2 months ago

          You think a federal court should enforce a law that it believes is unconstitutional? That would force federal judges to be accessories to violations of the Constitution.

          1. Dillinger   2 months ago

            I think John Marshall thought much much more highly of John Marshall than I do

          2. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

            Courts cant enforce anything. They can only interpret. See Andrew Jackson. He'll, actually read Marbury v Madison where they admit it.

            1. SMP0328   2 months ago

              So what is a court doing when it imposes an injunction? Is that not a form of enforcement?

              1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

                Expecting the other 2 branches to follow through with their interpretation. The only actors they have post that is declaring contempt and using article 3 mechanisms for contempt. Otherwise enforcement is either through article 2 or impeachment from article 1.

                This isnt difficult.

                1. SMP0328   2 months ago

                  That's semantics. The court is making an order. Others carry out that order, but the law, for all intents and purposes, is being enforced by the court. That's the system.

                  Any branch can blow off the other branches, but then the system breaks down. The People expect that when a federal court makes a ruling the other branches will comply or appeal, not defy the court.

                  1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

                    Lol. Semantics meaning the truth. God damn man.

                    This is literally what Marbury vs Madison dealt with and recognized.

                  2. LIBtranslator   2 months ago

                    Simp will perhaps affirm that when Mystical lobbies again succeed in making the Yew Ess dry as Islam, banning even watery beer, shooting boat crews offering alternatives in international waters, confiscating factories, warehouses, bank accounts, doubling the prison population and killing 150 people a year, retasking revenue agents to prop up sumptuary laws so the market crashes, the banking system collapses, the currency devalues, THAT is better than "the system breaks down". The Liberal Party in 1931 published the repeal plank that saved the nation when Dems copied it.

              2. Dillinger   2 months ago

                >>Is that not a form of enforcement?

                it's power wishcasting. thankfully the robes don't have guns too.

    3. MWAocdoc   2 months ago

      Getting back to your original statement, Dill, I noticed that you did not elucidate what decision might destroy America and how it might do that.

      1. Dillinger   2 months ago

        birthright citizenship is an axe to your many God-given and civil rights as an American. the whole idea of America immediately dies on the vine.

        1. Nelson   2 months ago

          You mean the birthright citizenship that has existed since the 14th Amendment was passed?

          If “the whole idea of America immediately dies on the vine” from birthright citizenship, “immediately” is happening very, very, very, VERY slowly.

          Personally, I think that if it hasn’t hurt us in over 150 years, it’s not about to start now.

  9. SMP0328   2 months ago

    I keep thinking of how Chief Justice Roberts likes to give at least a small victory to both sides in any high-profile case. In Trump v. Barbara, he could get a majority to rule that federal law provides for birthright citizenship and that such citizenship cannot be revoked. The majority then says it is unnecessary for the Court to rule on the Citizenship Clause. This would be small victory for President Trump and Congressional Republicans, because he would pressure Congress to change the law and they would highlight this attempt in their campaigns.

    Roberts tried this in Dobbs, but there was a solid majority for overruling Roe and Casey. There is no solid majority either way in this case.

    1. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

      Roberts really is a weak man.p, far too concerned about public perception, and not concerned enough about the constitution.

  10. Rick James   2 months ago

    I guess I'm really trying to figure out why Reason cares about the concept of "citizenship"- whether it's 'birthright' or non?

    If, for instance, the most libertarian of Governors can sign a law that provides all public services, including but not limited to welfare, free healthcare, food stamps, rental assistance, housing etc., to non-citizens-- or New York will provide housing and basic welfare benefits to anyone who knocks on the window, regardless of 'citizenship' status-- then why is birthright citizenship such a bedrock? Sell me. Go.

    1. mad.casual   2 months ago

      I guess I'm really trying to figure out why Reason cares about the concept of "citizenship"- whether it's 'birthright' or non?

      I'm not. The thing is never the thing. The thing is always the revolution.

      Hitler didn't actually care if Czechs or Yugoslavians or Poles were German citizens the same way Stalin didn't actually care if Ukrainians or Chechens or other Kulaks were Russian citizens the same way Putin doesn't actually care if the people in Donbas are Russian citizens.

      Trump isn't claiming Jus Sanguinis to advance the idea that Greenland or parts of Canada or wherever are actually US territory. He's pulling back from Jus Soli specifically to say that lots of people outside our borders (and in) aren't subject to the dominion *or privileges and protection* of the US Government.

      The Jus Soli crowd are, intentionally or not, making the opposing argument.

    2. MWAocdoc   2 months ago

      I don't understand why you don't understand why "citizenship" is important, Rick. The right to vote, for one thing, is one of the most important rights anyone can have. How can any libertarian NOT care about such an important question?

      1. Rick James   2 months ago

        So the right to vote is the ONLY function restricted by citizenship? Nothing outside of citizenship is restricted or bound to citizenship?

        Edit: So if the right to vote is the only privilege restricted by the construct of citizenship, why is birthright citizenship so sacred?

        1. middlefinger   2 months ago

          It’s always about the glorious socialist revolution.

          Let’s say a kid is born into the U.S. Kids Father is in Hamas, or in the Chinese military, an adversary. The kid literally gets to vote in U.S. elections. The revolution takes place speedily and efficiently.

          1. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

            That’s what democrats want. They hate this country, but they love Marxist government run by them.

        2. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

          Ironically voting rights can be restricted even for citizens. Therefore it is a privilege and not a right.

      2. Rick James   2 months ago

        Followup: I didn't say "citizenship" wasn't important, I said why is "birthright" citizenship important. And more accurately, why Reason takes the position that "birthright citizenship" is important. And b: it's not me who's saying "citizenship isn't important". Reason, by implication has made the argument, hundreds of times that "citizenship" isn't important.

        1. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

          Reason is an open borders globalist magazine that in no way believes in the concept of citizenship. Open borders and a Sorosite global order are their goals.

        2. Zeb   2 months ago

          I don't know what Reason thinks (whatever that means). But I will point out that it's possible without contradiction to believe that birthright citizenship not important, or should be more limited, but that the 14th still provides for citizenship for most people born inside the country.

          1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

            Not really, as it means citizenship is largely meaningless. Such as the surrogate stories or birth tourism stories.

            Means your country is open to all people regardless of allegiance to other countries. Watering down citizenship to nothing. Essentially making the US just the globes wallet and playground. Why even have immigration laws at that point. Especially when accomplished by violating the law or terms of a visa.

          2. Rick James   2 months ago

            I don't know what Reason thinks (whatever that means).

            It means the same thing that Reason says when they say "The New York Times Thinks...... except in my use, I'm not sure you'll find a single employee of Reason, all the way down to Trad Wife Liz Wolfe who thinks differently, so I'm probably pretty safe in my characterization... anyhoo...

            But I will point out that it's possible without contradiction to believe that birthright citizenship not important, or should be more limited, but that the 14th still provides for citizenship for most people born inside the country.

            Ok, but if you diminish citizenship through your various tangential opinions to "I crossed that social construct thingy, gimme gimme gimme" then why is 'birthright' citizenship so sacred? What would it matter if it changed to Red Hair citizenship or Your Father smells of Elderberries Citizenship?

            1. Zeb   2 months ago

              Why is anything in the constitution sacred? It's possible that the authors didn't account well for every eventuality. Illegals and anchor babies just weren't much of a worry at the time. There was a big, largely empty country that needed people to prosper. And at least de facto, people born in the country pretty much ended up being citizens.

              1. charliehall   2 months ago

                "And at least de facto, people born in the country pretty much ended up being citizens."

                Not *de facto*. *De jure*. Birthright citizenship was a feature of English common law. But it only applied to White People.

    3. middlefinger   2 months ago

      Immigrants are natural libertarians

      1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

        Lol. Why they largely vote for socialism.

      2. charliehall   2 months ago

        Many are fleeing Big Government. Many observers have noted that the Trumpidiots are deporting people who would be Republican voters a few years in the future.

  11. MWAocdoc   2 months ago

    "totally irrelevant to the originalist and textualist analysis that the Supreme Court is actually performing"

    But are they? Are they supposed to be? There have been too many cases to count throughout American history where the Supreme Court jurists were NOT performing originalist or textualist analyses. There is apparently no way to require them to stick to the original intent and plain language meaning of the Constitution. Having said that, I am optimistic that the original intent justices will stick to that this time, and combined with the progressivist jurists' preference for sticking it to Trump and their predilection for protecting non-criminal immigrants from abuse, the proper opinion will prevail in this case.

  12. Zeb   2 months ago

    Funny how almost everyone arguing about this appears to believe that it obviously and clearly means what supports their preferred policy.

    1. Dillinger   2 months ago

      I lol'd a little when Jackson took up your arguments out loud

      1. JesseAz (RIP CK)   2 months ago

        She had so many bangers yesterday. Probably hurt the open borders side more than anyone else could.

      2. Zeb   2 months ago

        She's an idiot. I don't let the fact that people may agree with me for dumb reasons affect my views.
        And all I'm saying at this point is that it's not clear what the right answer is, if there even is one. Interpreting law is always squishy. And I just don't think everyone taking the birthright citizenship side is being dishonest or stupid. Nor is everyone taking the other side. Reasonable people can disagree. The court will rule and that will be what it is.

  13. middlefinger   2 months ago

    In other news, it’s hilarious watching Rahm Emanuel pretend that the tranny bullshit is the only thing keeping the Democrat Party down. Nothing about, hmmm , Old Soviet Communism or anything, terror group support, feral gangbangers-crime, bankruptcy of blue states.

    It’s just the trannys- Rahm Emanuel 2028
    ROFLOL

    1. Rick James   2 months ago

      Well, to be fair to Emanuel... when your entire party believes the world is flat, that's a pretty big albatross. No, it's not the only thing, but it's a sticks-out-like-a-sore-thumb thing.

    2. SCOTUS gave JeffSarc a big sad   2 months ago

      The democrat party should be designated as a terror organization. that really isn’t a stretch anymore. Recent events in Minneapolis conclusively prove that.

    3. LIBtranslator   2 months ago

      And FORGET Sharknado Warmunism as pretext for banning all industrial electrical power generation. Chernobyl powered yuge Soviet antimissile radars before incompetence manifested itself in 1986. That incompetence has shifted to the Dems who will yield to Hitler socialism rather than let up on demands that the USA freeze and surrender to some equivalent altruist totalitarianism.

    4. charliehall   2 months ago

      What Democrat Party? There is no political party by that name in the US. There is one in Türkiye. (Spelled Demokrat in Turkish.) It is a center right party with 1 seat in the Turkish Grand National Assembly.

  14. swillfredo pareto   2 months ago

    That reply by the chief justice perfectly illustrated the bankruptcy of Trump's entire position.

    Or at the very least, the bankruptcy of the chief justice. Maybe Roberts can revisit the ACA's individual mandate for some straightforward text.

    1. LIBtranslator   2 months ago

      The suprema corte may reject fascism. Several high-placed German citizens took it upon themselves to assassinate Hitler. Desperate serfs Stateside have likewise concluded that all three branches of the U.S. government have embraced Christian National Socialism. Shortly after U.S. forces let the Soviet and National Socialists ply their trade in Berlin, Germans were eager to surrender. At denazification proceedings a large majority confessed they'd hated Hitlerism all along but had been cowardly intimidated. We USED to have an LP as hedge against precisely that sort of Credere, Obbedire, Combattere!

  15. Earth-based Human Skeptic   2 months ago

    'Yet if Trump's theory wins, that one undeniable purpose of the amendment would be nullified because the U.S.-born children of some enslaved people would not qualify for birthright citizenship after all.'

    Go on...

    1. charliehall   2 months ago

      The US enlisted the support of the most notorious Caribbean pirate ever, Jean Laffite, for the New Orleans campaign in the War of 1812. Andrew Jackson personally approved that after some initial hesitation. Importation of slaves had been banned in 1808, but Laffite had been openly violating not just that but a lot of other laws, running a huge smuggling operation based in Barataria Bay, south of New Orleans, as the US effectively had totally open borders then.

      (Actually, that isn't quite accurate. Louisiana had just been admitted to the union. Its northern border, with the future Arkansas, was defined, but its southern border at the Gulf of Mexico was unguarded, and nobody knew what its eastern or western borders were with Spanish Florida and Spanish Mexico, respectively. Mexico was in the midst of its 11 year war of independence and Florida was more controlled by various Indian tribes than by the Spanish -- and nobody knew who the actual Spanish monarch was at that time because it was in the midst of a civil war itself between Bonapartists and the anti-Bonapartists (the latter supported by Great Britain. So it wasn't really open borders, more like no borders.)

      We don't know how much human trafficking Laffite conducted, but unlike Jeffrey Epstein, he became a minor national hero and he has a National Historical Park named for him. Oh and his people really did play a major role in the defeat of the British at the Battle of New Orleans.

      And yes, by Trump logic, the descendants of Laffite's human cargo should lose their US citizenship.

  16. Earth-based Human Skeptic   2 months ago

    So, "domicile" depends on intent. If some crackheads occupy your house for a few hours and steal your stuff they are just criminals, but if they intend to stay they are legal residents? And if one gives birth in your place, that kid has ownership rights?

    1. But SkyNet is a Private Company   2 months ago

      If an illegal is “subject to the jurisdiction”, they would be summarily expelled. They are conspicuously avoiding detection and avoiding jurisdiction

      1. charliehall   2 months ago

        And if an illegal is not "subject to the jurisdiction", you can't expel them, you can't sue them, you can't arrest them, and you can't even remove them from your house.

    2. Zeb   2 months ago

      Where in the 14th does it say anything about ownership of private residences? The analogy of the whole country to private individual property is not a good one.

      If some crackheads occupy your house for a few hours and steal your stuff they are just criminals, but if they intend to stay they are legal residents?

      Sort of. Depends on the tenant rights laws in your state (this is not an endorsement, my answer is that yes, they are still criminals).

      1. LIBtranslator   2 months ago

        What happens if they replace the gin and whiskey majority in Congress? Then who become the "criminals"?

      2. charliehall   2 months ago

        The due process clause. There is one in the Fifth Amendment.

  17. Sequel   2 months ago

    I was impressed and amused by Kavanaugh's dismissal of the ACLU claim that the opening words of 14A precluded any change by Congress to the meaning of the jurisdiction qualification.

    He coolly observed -- almost bored -- that that conclusion would result in an extraordinarily brief opinion for the writer. Laughter followed.

  18. LIBtranslator   2 months ago

    Former NYC Police Commissioner Theodore Roosevelt agreed on behalf of mystical looters to ban everything worldwide except cigarettes and gin to please China. Six years later those Qing dictators were beheaded by nascent communism in a world studded with mystical monarchies and more and more totalitarian caudillos. Hitler and Trump, by causality, resulted, this thanks to physicians lying under oath to justify dry killers and keep their licenses to practice medicine from being revoked. The Atlas Shrugged amendment banning federal meddling in production and trade is long overdue.

    1. charliehall   2 months ago

      The last Qing monarch lived until 1967. And the Communist Party of China was founded in 1921, almost a decade after the Qing were overthrown. (And interestingly some of the founders would become Trotskyites, to be purged later.)

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