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Iran

Will SCOTUS Review the Iran War's Constitutionality? Don't Count on It.

The judiciary is largely absent from the long-running constitutional debate over undeclared foreign wars.

Damon Root | 3.10.2026 7:00 AM

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In a recent edition of this newsletter, I argued that the war with Iran is unconstitutional because President Donald Trump took the United States to war without first obtaining a congressional declaration of war as required by the U.S. Constitution. In response, a reader we'll call "John A." wrote in to say the following: "Unconstitutional perhaps, but enforcement is political, not judicial."

As a practical matter, "John A." is probably right.

You’re reading Injustice System from Damon Root and Reason. Get more of Damon’s commentary on constitutional law and American history.

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Despite the fact that the Constitution vests the power "to declare War" exclusively in the hands of Congress via Article I, Section 8, the U.S. Supreme Court has proven itself unwilling over the past half-century or so to hear cases challenging the usurpation of that congressional power by the executive. In 1970, for example, the Supreme Court declined to hear a case known as Massachusetts v. Laird, in which the Bay State wanted the Court to rule on the constitutionality of the Vietnam War, which, like the current Iran War, was never formally declared by Congress.

"Today we deny a hearing to a State which attempts to determine whether it is constitutional to require its citizens to fight in a foreign war absent a congressional declaration of war," Justice William O. Douglas wrote in dissent. "Another way of putting the question is whether under our Constitution presidential wars are permissible? Should that question be answered in the negative we would then have to determine whether Congress has declared war. That question which Massachusetts presents is in my view justiciable."

The Supreme Court did not explain why it refused to hear Massachusetts v. Laird and several other cases like it that centered on the Vietnam War. But legal scholars generally think the Court dodged the issue because most of the justices saw it as a "political question" that was best left for Congress and the president to hash out. As Michal Belknap argued in The Oxford Companion to the Supreme Court of the United States, "unwilling to precipitate a conflict with the Executive, the Court protected its institutional interests by leaving the question of the legality of the war to be resolved in the political arena."

Of course, the Supreme Court has not always taken such a hands-off approach in matters of war and executive power. In Youngstown Sheet and Tube Company v. Sawyer (1952), for example, the Court famously rejected President Harry Truman's claim that his "inherent" executive authority allowed him to seize control of most privately owned American steel mills during the Korean War as a national security measure. "The President's order does not direct that a congressional policy be executed in a manner prescribed by Congress—it directs that a presidential policy be executed in a manner prescribed by the President," the Court stated. Yet "the Founders of this Nation entrusted the lawmaking power to the Congress alone in both good and bad times." Indeed, the Court added, "it would do no good to recall the historical events, the fears of power, and the hopes for freedom that lay behind their choice. Such a review would but confirm our holding that this seizure order cannot stand."

You may be thinking that the founders also entrusted the authority to declare war "to Congress alone in both good and bad times." And you would be correct to think it. The logic of Youngstown Steel does cut against the idea of a president launching a war without congressional authorization just as it cuts against the idea of a president seizing steel mills without congressional authorization.

But the logic of Youngstown Steel is apparently no match for the flexibility of the "political questions doctrine," which has conveniently allowed the Supreme Court to sidestep the thorny constitutional debate over undeclared foreign wars for many decades now with no end in sight.

Which brings us back to the point made by reader "John A." If Trump is going to pay a price for launching a war without congressional authorization, that price will have to be a political one, since the judiciary is basically AWOL.

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NEXT: Minnesota's Fraud Scandal Isn't an Immigration Problem. It's a Spending Problem.

Damon Root is a senior editor at Reason and the author of A Glorious Liberty: Frederick Douglass and the Fight for an Antislavery Constitution (Potomac Books). His next book, Emancipation War: The Fall of Slavery and the Coming of the Thirteenth Amendment (Potomac Books), will be published in June 2026.

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  1. mad.casual   2 months ago

    Will SCOTUS Review the Iran War's Constitutionality?

    For all the back and forth about Imperial POTUS and The War Powers Act, this question is incredibly stupid.

    Once again, you don't actually give a shit about The Constitution or Separation of Powers. At least the people saying "He didn't ask Congress!" are pointing at the literal text, even if they ignore the WPA, and aren't just whimsically assigning various branches of the government power and authority they don't have in order to oppose action they don't like to get their pony.

    Even beyond The Constitution, you aren't in favor of a more simple, smaller, less burdensome government. If you had to twist it into multitudinous, inseverable Gordian knots to get your desired ends, you would.

    To wit, you're almost invariably wrong. It's almost certain every last justice will review the Iran War just as much if not more than most of us. They just won't whimsically rule the way you want them to rule, if they rule at all.

    1. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

      The WPR does not say what MAGAs want it to say. It does not in anyway give the president the ability to wage any war he wants without authorization.

      "It is the purpose of this chapter to fulfill the intent of the framers of the Constitution of the United States and insure that the collective judgment of both the Congress and the President will apply to the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities"

      "The President in every possible instance shall consult with Congress before introducing United States Armed Forces into hostilities"

      " (d) Nothing in this joint resolution--

      (1) is intended to alter the constitutional authority of the Congress or of the President, or the provision of existing treaties; or

      (2) shall be construed as granting any authority to the President with respect to the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into situations wherein involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances which authority he would not have had in the absence of this joint resolution."

      1. Bruce Hayden   2 months ago

        Molly, Molly, Molly. Repeatedly illustrating your midwit reading comprehension doesn’t make your point true. I will break it down for you one more time.
        1) Congress has the power to declare war.
        2) The President is the CinC of the military. He is empowered to use the military force of the US.
        3) That is independent from Congress’ power to declare war. There is 225 years of precedence for this, where Presidents utilized military force without the declaring of war by Congress. This includes the actions of our 2nd and 3rd Presidents, bitter political enemies, attacking Muslim slavers and pirates.

        It’s really simple. We are not at War, because Congress hasn’t Declared War. The President is employing military force, pursuant to his plenary power as CinC of our military forces. Nothing more.

        1. Bruce Hayden   2 months ago

          Ok. I apologize for being harsh there. The sort of reading comprehension that I am talking about is that tested on the LSAT, for admission to ABA accredited law schools. I am used to lawyers, who shouldn’t make the mistake that Molly makes. But many here aren’t attorneys. She reads more into the Constitution than it says. It’s a legal document, so has to be read through the eyes of a lawyer. Which she obviously isn’t.

        2. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

          Bruce, there's simply no such thing as "precedence" or "precedent" that can overrule or alter our Constitution. That's literally the point of having a Constitution put into writing and having it ratified by the People. That's literally the point of establishing "the supreme law of the land" (because it's the law that governs absolutely all our public servants).

          Nothing empowered the president to use military force for his own purposes or even his own policies. The power to make such decisions was very clearly vested in ONLY BOTH houses of Congress. Such decisions MUST be made by both representative bodies that are elected DIRECTLY by the people.

          You cannot reason your way though this by resorting to some dictionary definition of the words "declare" or "war." The point was to ensure that any decision to choose to involve the U.S. in acts of war must be made by BOTH houses of CONGRESS.

        3. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

          Bruce, please show us any authority that said the President has "plenary power as CinC of our military forces." You can't because he clearly wasn't given such power. Nobody at all under our Constitution has plenary (absolute) power over anything at all.

          A big part of the point of including "treaties" in "the supreme law of the land" is to emphasize that the President and generals and admirals have no power to violate treaties that have been approved by the Senate.

        4. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

          Bruce, it's important to bear in mind how communications and transportation and other circumstances have changed radically over the past 200 years. Now, the president can fairly easily fulfill his duty under Article II to provide information and make recommendations to Congress re: acts of war: “He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient.”

          Congress can easily meet and communicate its decisions to authorize force. The changes in circumstances warrant corresponding improvements in our public servants' compliance with our Constitution.

  2. Gaear Grimsrud   2 months ago

    You can stop beating that horse Damon. It's been dead for a very long time.

    1. mad.casual   2 months ago

      Even then, unlike in Youngstown Sheet and Tube Company v. Sawyer, Root isn't calling for SCOTUS to oppose nationalization of domestic industry to support war efforts. He's calling on SCOTUS to effectively overrule Congress and un-write the WPA without a case before the courts.

      It's just supplanting an Imperial Court (which just had a justice who was older and more infirm than Joe Biden die in place and who now has a justice that can't answer "What is a woman?") for an Imperial POTUS. I'm loathe to believe Chief Justice Penaltax would be any less flexible with interpreting the law.

      1. Neutral not Neutered   2 months ago

        Yup and I will add, hoping people will believe the misinformation, disinformation and blatant lies so they hate Trump and the GOP and vote for donkeys in the mid terms.

        They are running out of time and it's difficult to get beyond all the success of the Trump admin GOP led congress.

  3. Sometimes a Great Notion   2 months ago

    Good article, needs to be said nore.

    1. mad.casual   2 months ago

      You're advocating for an unconstitutional paradox to support your own end.

      If only Congress has the power to declare war, then by what Constitutional authority does SCOTUS derive the power to say they can't delegate it?

      It would be one thing if there were a case before the court and you could say "The People", but in a manner so biased that it would get you tossed from your average jury, you've announced up front, that you know there to be a means and mechanism by which the Judiciary can usurp both the POTUS and Congress on declaration (or lack thereof) of war.

      You aren't an Originalist. You're just a dishonest, wishcasting oppositionist.

      1. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

        Declaring war is given solely to Congress by the Constitution. That can not be changed by legislation.

        1. Rossami   2 months ago

          So, Molly, you're going with a strict version of the non-delegation doctrine? Are you willing to apply that doctrine in all other contexts as well? Eliminate the SEC, EPA and pretty much everything else invented from the New Deal forward?

          1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

            Rossami, what in our Constitution makes you think that all administrative law is analogous to the way our Constitution expressly allocated powers over the use of force? It's not the same thing at all. The uses of force in criminal matters and military matters are not at all the same as most areas of administrative law.

            1. Rossami   2 months ago

              Article 1, Section 1 - "All legislative Powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States ..." If, as Molly alleged, it is unconstitutional to delegate allocated powers over the use of force, it must be equally unconstitutional to delegate allocated legislative powers. It's not a question of whether the matters are the same, its a question of whether Congress is allowed to delegate at all.

              1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

                Rossami, you have a point. Putting legislative, executive and judicial powers over a particular area of law into the hands of one agency does seem to accomplish or promote evils that our Constitution was carefully crafted to prevent and prohibit. See, e.g., Madison in Federalist No. 47 and No. 48 (and SCOTUS justices quoting or echoing Montesquieu including in Gundy) in this thread.

        2. Dillinger   2 months ago

          declaring war doesn't mean a motherfucking thing Congress could declare war on Canada this afternoon if T doesn't send troops there is no war

      2. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

        mad.casual, at least you're asking the right question: "by what Constitutional authority does SCOTUS derive the power to say [that Congress] can't delegate [to the President legislative powers that the People vested exclusively in Congress]?"

        Justice Gorsuch (joined by Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Thomas) did a pretty good job of answering your question in their dissenting opinion in 2019 in Gundy v. United States. The separation of powers prescribed by the People in our Constitution (including all three vesting clauses in Articles I, II and III) serves and supports our liberty and our sovereignty and our Constitution.

        “As Madison explained, ‘[t]here can be no liberty where the legislative and executive powers are united in the same person, or body of magistrates.’” The framers knew . . . [that] enforcing the separation of powers isn’t about protecting institutional prerogatives or governmental turf. It’s about respecting the people’s sovereign choice to vest the legislative power in Congress alone. And it’s about safeguarding a structure designed to protect their liberties, minority rights, fair notice, and the rule of law."

        “Our founding document [Constitution] begins by declaring that ‘We the People . . . ordain and establish this Constitution.’ At the time, that was a radical claim, an assertion that sovereignty belongs [ ] to the whole of the people. From that premise, the Constitution proceeded to vest the authority to exercise different aspects of the people’s sovereign power in distinct entities. In Article I, the Constitution entrusted all of the federal government’s legislative power to Congress. In Article II, it assigned the executive power to the President. And in Article III [vesting judicial power], it gave independent judges the task of applying the [governing] laws to cases and controversies.”

        But you need only look at the plain text of the Constitution to see that it answers your question clearly. "We the People" to "secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity" did in June 1788 "ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America."

        The People acted as the supreme legislative body for the U.S. (and the only legislative body for the U.S. until March 1789) to “establish [our] Constitution” (Preamble). The People established that all federal “Laws” must “be made in Pursuance” of “this Constitution” (Article VI); established “the supreme Law of the Land” (i.e., “this Constitution,” federal “Laws” and “Treaties”) (Article VI); established that all “Judges in every State shall be bound” by “the supreme Law of the Land” (Article VI); established that the President always in all official conduct must act only to “preserve, protect and defend [our] Constitution" (Article II); and established that “all executive and judicial Officers” (including all lawyers) and all legislators and (state and federal) always in all official conduct are “bound” to “support this Constitution” (Article VI).

        The bottom line is that this is a question of jurisdiction. The People (as the sovereign power) exercised jurisdiction to write and establish the paramount law of the land (our Constitution) to govern the conduct of all exercises of jurisdiction by all our representatives in federal or state government and all departments (legislative, executive and judicial) of federal or state government. No public servant (all of whom are bound to support our Constitution) can contradict or override our Constitution. That's part of the point of Amendment X expressly emphasizing that certain "powers" were "reserved" to "the people."

      3. Rossami   2 months ago

        Well, there is a path to declaring that Congress can't delegate their powers. But doing so would also overturn the legal basis for the vast majority of laws and congressional resolutions since ... Wilson, maybe? It would certainly require undoing the New Deal and the entire creation of the Administrative State.

        Mind you, I support such solution. But there is maybe one Justice ready to sign on to that approach and no appetite from either the Rs or Ds to do so.

    2. Neutral not Neutered   2 months ago

      You love the confirmation bias, we know.

      It aligns with your cognitive dissonance at the perfect frequency creating a similar result as noise cancelling headphones.

      Black out reality, so your fantasies are all you hear.

  4. Longtobefree   2 months ago

    " . . . without first obtaining a congressional declaration of war as required by the U.S. Constitution."

    The US Constitution says congress can declare war. It doesn't say that has to happen first; the President is commander-in-chief.

    Given that congress is required by the same constitution to pass a budget and hasn't done that in nearly half a century indicates it is unsafe to depend on congress.

    1. Neutral not Neutered   2 months ago

      Also ignored is that was written when it would take weeks for "news" or "leaks" to make it across shores so there was plenty of time.

      Unlike today's information transferring in milliseconds.

      Same really for birth right citizenship. This was in place when it took months to travel. It would not have been passed if travel was as it is today.

    2. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

      Longtobefree, obviously exercise of legislative power must precede the exercise of executive power. That's literally the point of calling it "executive power."

      For reasons that are vital to our Constitution and our safety and liberty, the People in Article II expressly “vested” in the “President” only “executive Power.” The People also expressly limited all executive power to the President’s duty to “take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed” and “faithfully execute the Office of President" by exercising executive power only to "preserve, protect and defend [our] Constitution.” That’s it. Nothing in our Constitution gave any president any power to start wars or other conflicts of his choosing.

      In highlighting the principle served by the separation of powers between the legislative and executive departments, Madison in Federalist 47 emphasized:

      As "Montesquieu" emphasized, "When the legislative and executive powers are united in the same person or body" of people "there can be no liberty, because [ ] THE SAME monarch or senate [could] ENACT tyrannical laws to EXECUTE them in a tyrannical manner."

      1. Bruce Hayden   2 months ago

        “That’s it. Nothing in our Constitution gave any president any power to start wars or other conflicts of his choosing.”

        Article II, § 1, ¶ 1, authorizing his CinC power. 225 years of precedent says that includes starting conflicts of his choosing.

        1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

          Bruce, there's no such thing as any "precedent" that can overrule or alter any part of "the supreme law of the land." That's literally the point of declaring it the supreme law of the land and requiring all executive and judicial officers and legislators to expressly acknowledge that they are bound to support our Constitution in all official conduct.

          As Hamilton emphasized in Federalist No. 69, the President's "authority" actually “amount[s] to nothing more than” being the “first General and admiral” of the U.S., in striking contrast with the power “of the British king [which] extends to the DECLARING of war and to the RAISING and REGULATING of fleets and armies, all which, by the Constitution [were vested exclusively in] the legislature.”

    3. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

      Failure of Congress to do part of their job does not give the president powers Constitutionally given to Congress. MAGAs are making dumber excuses every day.

  5. Gaear Grimsrud   2 months ago

    Even the constitution is not exactly clear cut on the issue. Only Congress can declare war but at the same time the president has complete control of the military as commander in chief. This is why we end up with the tedious rants about whether some cabinet member called the Iran military action a "war". The only issue is if there exists in the president's authority the ability to use military force in some instances without a formal declaration of war. The answer per Congress is obviously yes which is why they created the WPA and why they refused pass legislation in this Congress to end the president's authority. We have not had a formal declaration of war since WW2 because that's what Congress wants. The judiciary has nothing to do with it.

    1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

      Gaear, you continue to ignore the plain truth and you continue to advocate violating the plain text of our Constitution regarding this issue.

      The judiciary clearly has a constitutional duty to adjudicate this issue and rule that conduct such as Trump's against Iran (last year and this year), against Venezuela and against boats allegedly manned by Venezuelans violates our Constitution.

      In Article III, the People (in the paramount law of the land) expressly command that federal "judicial Power shall extend" to "Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party."

      Article I also expressly emphasizes that Congress has the power (and duty) to “make all Laws [that are] necessary and proper for carrying into Execution [all Congress's] Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.” Congress clearly has the power to make law governing the executive and judicial branches, so the judiciary necessarily and irrefutably has the power to "say what the law is" governing executive and judicial officers.

      Again, this was addressed expressly and squarely in 1803 by Chief Justice Marshall writing for SCOTUS in Marbury v. Madison.

      "The government of the United States has been emphatically termed a government of laws, and not of men."

      Simply put, "the constitution" is the "paramount law" of this nation, so "courts" cannot merely "close their eyes on the constitution, and see only [some other purported] law."

      "It is emphatically the province and duty of the judicial department to say what the [existing] law [actually] is. Those who apply the rule to particular cases, must of necessity expound and interpret that rule. If two laws conflict with each other, the courts must decide on the operation of each. . . . [T]he court must determine which of [any] conflicting rules governs the case. This is of the very essence of judicial duty. "

      "[I]t is apparent, that the framers of the constitution contemplated [our Constitution], as a rule for the government of courts, as well as of the legislature. [That is precisely why the Article VI and federal law] direct [all federal] judges to take an oath to support [our Constitution]. This oath certainly applies, in an especial manner, to [public servants’] conduct in their official character. . . . [The reason each] judge swear[s] to discharge his duties agreeably to the constitution of the United States [is] that constitution forms [the supreme] rule for his government."

      "[I]n declaring what shall be the supreme law of the land, the constitution itself is first mentioned; and not the laws of the United States generally, but those only which shall be made in pursuance of the constitution, have that rank."

      "Thus, the particular phraseology of the constitution of the United States confirms and strengthens the principle, supposed to be essential to all written constitutions, that a law repugnant to the constitution is void; and that courts, as well as other departments, are bound by [our Constitution]."

      "[T]he constitution is to be considered, in court, as a paramount law. . . . The constitution is [necessarily the] superior, paramount law, unchangeable by ordinary means. . . . Certainly all those who have framed written constitutions contemplate them as forming the fundamental and paramount law of the nation, and consequently the theory of every such government must be, that an act of the legislature, repugnant to the constitution, is void."

      The same principles and logic, above, establishing that any law that is “repugnant to the constitution is void” (even if it was made either with the President’s approval or with the approval of two-thirds of each house) necessarily confirms that any decision or opinion by any quantity or quality of past or present presidents or judges that is “repugnant to the constitution is void.” No purported “precedent” or “practice” of any public servant can lawfully contradict, override or overrule our Constitution. Any presumption or pretense to the contrary is not the rule of law. It is rule by outlaws. It is rule by outlaws who are enemies of the Constitution, violating their own oaths to support and defend our Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic.

      1. Neutral not Neutered   2 months ago

        Jack, there is one answer. Gaear already gave it. Can you find the answer in his post if you read it? Unless you can't read, you should not have missed it. So that makes me think you never read it.

        Read Gaear's post again.

        Two hints WPA & Precedent.

        1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

          Neutral, your post (and Gaear's) merely beg the question. You both pretend that the mere enactment of a law by Congress or precedent (whatever you mean by that) can somehow contradict or override our Constitution. That's obviously and irrefutably false. But if you think that somebody somewhere proved otherwise, please show me where or how.

          Please read the language of SCOTUS in Marbury v. Madison that I highlighted for you. Marbury pertained specifically to a law that had been enacted by Congress with the President's approval and then was implemented by federal judges. SCOTUS's opinion emphasized that statute violated our Constitution, so the quantity or quality of public servants responsible for making it or enforcing it were irrelevant. All of them (Congress, the President and judges) violated our Constitution, so all their actions were void.

          1. Gaear Grimsrud   2 months ago

            Again article 1 has the power to decide when to make a formal declaration of war and they have implicitly and formally demonstrated that not every military action requires that designation. Presidents have engaged in military adventures since shortly after the founding without a declaration. If a super majority of Congress wants to exercise it's power to declare war prior to any military engagement they can take that vote. But of course they won't. You want to define every military action as a war but obviously Congress doesn't agree which why they have passed legislation defining parameters for the use of force distinct from a declaration of war. You can copy paste the entire federalist papers but it is a tiresome exercise in futility. It changes nothing and title 3 is not going to make it otherwise.

            1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

              Gaear, you're making the mistake of elevating form over function. This issue isn't at all about "formally declaration of war" or formal "war." It's about separation of powers in a way that secures our safety and liberty.

              This isn't at all about what I "want." This is about what our Constitution means. But it's plainly false (a straw man argument) to misrepresent that I "want to define every military action as a war." I never said anything of the sort. Please actually read my comment re: the 1973 War Powers Resolution and the text of the Constitution that the Resolution echoed.

              Don't pretend my understanding of our Constitution depends on the Federalist Papers. I've presented the plain text of our Constitution and SCOTUS justices (sometimes writing for SCOTUS) saying what our Constitution's plain text clearly means.

              You're making the mistake of thinking that practice makes perfect (past practice of presidents or congress makes something perfect). It doesn't. The Constitution is the paramount law of the land, and it's clear regarding the separation of powers. Exactly as Congress must make law defining a crime and authorizing the use of force before the executive branch can impose punishment, Congress must authorize use of force against another nation before the executive branch may attack another nation. It's really that simple.

        2. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

          WPA and Precedent are both awful arguments. Past violations of the Constitution do not legalize future violations.

          The WPR does not say what MAGAs want it to say. It does not in anyway give the president the ability to wage any war he wants without authorization.

          "It is the purpose of this chapter to fulfill the intent of the framers of the Constitution of the United States and insure that the collective judgment of both the Congress and the President will apply to the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities"

          "The President in every possible instance shall consult with Congress before introducing United States Armed Forces into hostilities"

          " (d) Nothing in this joint resolution--

          (1) is intended to alter the constitutional authority of the Congress or of the President, or the provision of existing treaties; or

          (2) shall be construed as granting any authority to the President with respect to the introduction of United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into situations wherein involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances which authority he would not have had in the absence of this joint resolution."

          1. SMP0328   2 months ago

            The War Powers Act simply begs the question. Congress believes it must authorize hostilities against a country before the President may engage in such hostilities. Every President has believed no such authorization is necessary, even when a declaration-of-war / authorization-for-the-use-of-military-force was requested. Which belief is correct? Congress passing a law declaring itself correct does not answer the question.

            IMO, both sides have a reasonable argument. The Constitution says Congress has the power to declare war, but it doesn't say the President CIC authority is limited by Congress not using that power. Perhaps if an Article V Convention is held, an amendment dealing with this matter would be proposed

            1. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

              "Which belief is correct?" Congresses. It is not a debate, the text of the Constitution is clear. When the Constitution gives a power to one branch and not the other it means...wait for it...that the one branch has the power and the other does not.

              1. SMP0328   2 months ago

                Under your logic, since the Constitution makes the President CIC it means... wait for it... that Congress does not have the authority to tell him how to run the military.

                1. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

                  Article 1 Section 8: "To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;"

                2. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

                  SMPO328, it's not even debatable that Congress has such power. Article I expressly vested in Congress the power:

                  To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal [authorizing privateers to attack other nation's shipping], and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

                  To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

                  To provide and maintain a Navy;

                  To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces.

                  After that, it emphasized that “Congress shall have Power” to “make all Laws [that are] necessary and proper for carrying into Execution [all Congress's] Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof” (including the executive and judicial branches).

                  In addition, "the supreme law of the land" includes "treaties," which necessarily govern the power of not only the President but even Congress to authorize or engage in acts of war.

            2. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

              SMP0328, it's not true that "both sides have a reasonable argument." The words of our Constitution were written and ratified by people with a fanatical fear of people with power (because of past and present abuses and usurpations of power). Everything in our Constitution was written to protect people from dangerous accumulations, abuses or usurpations of power. Consider, e.g., my quotations of Montesquieu, Madison and SCOTUS in Marbury and SCOTUS justices in Gundy.

    2. Neutral not Neutered   2 months ago

      Exactly. And this should be well known. Especially for people who call themselves journalists...

    3. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

      Gaear, it's clearly not true that "the constitution is not exactly clear cut on the issue."

      The War Powers Resolution of 1973 emphasized:

      "The constitutional powers of the President as Commander-in-Chief to introduce United States Armed Forces into hostilities, or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances, are exercised only pursuant to (1) a declaration of war, (2) specific statutory authorization, or (3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces."

      The 1973 Resolution expressly reflects the Constitution's own express provisions:

      In Article I, the People vested in Congress, alone, the power to do much more than merely declare war. “All legislative Powers” that the People “granted” to the U.S. government were “vested” exclusively in “Congress.” The People expressly granted to Congress particular legislative powers, including the power to “declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal [authorize privateering], and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water” and to “define and [authorize] punish[ing] Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offences against the Law of Nations.”

      The powers of Congress also include authorizing executive action that is necessary and proper to execute the powers granted to Congress (and prohibiting executive action that isn’t necessary or isn’t proper). That is why Article I expressly emphasizes that “Congress shall have Power” to “make all Laws [that are] necessary and proper for carrying into Execution [all Congress's] Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof” (including the executive and judicial branches).

      In a nutshell, the People vested the power to choose to start a war (risk or sacrifice our lives, liberty and property) EXCLUSIVELY in those of our representatives whom we the People elect DIRECTLY. The People reserved to ourselves the power to remove the entire House of Representatives and 1/3 of the Senate every two years. So if they choose to involve us in a war that we don't want, we (the people) can vote to remove them fairly promptly.

      For reasons that are vital to our Constitution and our safety and liberty, the People in Article II expressly “vested” in the “President” only “executive Power.” The People also expressly limited all executive power to the President’s duty to “take Care that the Laws be faithfully executed” and “faithfully [serve to] preserve, protect and defend [our] Constitution.” That’s it. Nothing in our Constitution gave any president any power to start wars or other conflicts of his own choosing.

      Regarding acts of war, “executive Power” means merely the power to “be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States.” As Alexander Hamilton emphasized in Federalist No. 69, this “authority” actually “amount[s] to nothing more than” making the President the “first General and admiral” of the U.S., in striking contrast with the power “of the British king [which] extends to the DECLARING of war and to the RAISING and REGULATING of fleets and armies, all which, by the Constitution [were vested exclusively in] the legislature.”

      Whenever the President exercises "executive Power" as the "Commander in Chief" to commit acts of war, he obviously and necessarily almost always is required to act under express authorization by Congress. An exception applies to the President to the same extent as it applied to state governors (especially from late 1788 through the early 1800’s when individual states were much more powerful than the national government). Article I clarified that any “State” even “without the Consent of Congress” may unilaterally “engage in War” if “actually invaded, or in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay.” Only if the U.S. is being “actually invaded” or it is “in such imminent Danger as will not admit of delay” does our Constitution permit the President to commit acts of war without obtaining authorization from Congress.

      The foregoing restrictions do not mean that the President must remain silent. He may and must make the case to Congress when he believes acts of war are necessary. In Article II, the People commanded the President to provide information and make recommendations: “He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient.” If the president thinks acts of war are necessary and expedient, he must make the case to Congress. If he needs help, “he may require the Opinion, in writing, of the principal Officer in each of the executive Departments, upon any Subject relating to the Duties of their respective Offices.”

  6. SMP0328   2 months ago

    This discussion has been going on since the Founding Fathers at the Constitutional Convention changed Congress's power from "make war" to "declare war" and made the President the Commander-In-Chief. Every Congress has believed it must give the President permission to wage war before he may do so and every President has believed his authority as Commander-In-Chief is unincumbered by the lack of a declaration of war or authorization for the use of military force.

    If this issue ever reached the Supreme Court, it would likely rule it to be a political question. One principal reason would be that there would be no way for the federal courts to enforce an injunction against the President, anyone in the military, or in the Cabinet to stop fighting the war.

    1. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

      That change in no way gave the president the authority to start wars.

      1. SMP0328   2 months ago

        Says you. I'm not saying you are wrong. The Constitution is ambiguous on this matter IMO. My point is that the federal courts are unlikely to ever be able to get involved because it unlikely anyone would have standing and even if someone did, the courts would likely declare the issue to be a political question because no injunction would be enforceable.

        1. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

          The Constitution is in no way ambiguous. The history and text are clear that only Congress can authorize offensive military force.

          1. SMP0328   2 months ago

            You are making the common mistake of treating a strongly held belief as a stone-cold fact. Just because you strongly believe one way does not mean that the debate is over or that an opposing viewpoint is unreasonable. This Constitutional issue has been debated for over two centuries. It does not end simply based on your proclaiming the issue resolved.

            1. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

              What the letter of the Constitution says is not up for debate. Anyone with an opposing view of the text of the Constitution is a liar or a moron.

              We saw the same dumbass statements from MAGAs about the counting of the 2020 EC votes. They claimed the constitution said things it did not.

              1. Dillinger   2 months ago

                you know there are notes from the 1700s right? you're arguing from the position of the car rental lady who takes Jerry's reservation but doesn't hold the reservation.

            2. CE   2 months ago

              The common mistake of reading plain English?

          2. Bruce Hayden   2 months ago

            BS. History shows Presidents since 1801 (Adams) utilizing military force without Congress having declared war.

            1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

              Bruce, you're making the mistake of reading the Constitution too literally. The point wasn't merely to address the mere power to "declare war." It obviously was to emphasize that the people vested in Congress (as opposed to the President) powers such as the King of England could exercise. Hamilton emphasized this in Federalist No. 69:

              The power to “be Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the Militia of the several States, when called into the actual Service of the United States” (Art. II) “amount[s] to nothing more than” making the President the “first General and admiral” of the U.S., in striking contrast with the power “of the British king [which] extends to the DECLARING of war and to the RAISING and REGULATING of fleets and armies, all which, by the Constitution [were vested exclusively in] the legislature.”

              Congress, not the President, had the power to authorize attacking other nations shipping. Congress (not the President) has the following powers:

              To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal [authorizing privateers to attack other nation's shipping], and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

              To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

              To provide and maintain a Navy;

              To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces.

        2. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

          SMP0328, if a sailor or pilot refused to launch a missile at Iran or Venezuela (or a boat that Trump alleged by Venezuelans) and he was prosecuted for it, would he not be entitled to present a defense? In his defense, could he not argue that he was fulfilling his oath to support and defend our Constitution by refusing to follow an order that violated our Constitution?

          By what authority could a federal court refuse to adjudicate that defense? Article III commands that federal "judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties" and "to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party."

    2. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

      SMP0328, this issue has reached SCOTUS repeatedly and you're right that those judges did often violate their oaths to support our Constitution by, at least in part, merely contending that this is a "political question." You're also right that they might, if they were honest, admit that they're merely afraid there's "no way for the federal courts to enforce an injunction against the President, anyone in the military, or in the Cabinet to stop fighting the war." But the issue of enforcement is irrelevant the "political question" assertion is false doctrine.

      The People in our Constitution commanded that federal "judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties" and to "Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party." No judge or court was given any power to refuse to adjudicate a case or controversy that presents the "political question" of whether any employee of any branch of government is violating our Constitution. That was one of the primary points addressed in 1803 in Marbury v. Madison (emphasizing the duty of courts to say how our Constitution governs our public servants).

      1. Bruce Hayden   2 months ago

        And based on the soft power that the Executive will obey the Supreme Court, because they always have. The implied threat that some day the Executive might call their bluff, and ignore them, keeps the Judiciary in check.

        Presidents between Clinton and Biden were lawyers, who learned early on in LS about Marbury v Madison. It’s taught as foundational. Neither Trump, nor much of his Cabinet, ever had this LS indoctrination. And are, thus, more willing to call the Supreme Court’s bluff.

        1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

          Bruce, I would be among the first to agree that we cannot (according to our Constitution) treat SCOTUS justices as high priests of some faith-based religion. I'd also be among the first to agree that SCOTUS justices (and other federal judges) sometimes violate our Constitution by essentially seeking the establishment of a religion with judges as little, if anything, better than priests. I'd be among the first to say that we need legislation requiring impeachment of judges by the House and trial by the Senate to be according to process of law that is very similar to criminal adjudications so that impeachment and trial are not merely political process or political theater. I'd be among the first to say that we need legislation better clarifying what kind of behavior is not good behavior warranting the impeachment, trial and removal of federal judges.

          But it is not the constitutional role of Presidents to "keep the Judiciary in check" by merely ignoring judgments of judges. If the President thinks a judge should be impeached, he should make the case to Congress as Article II says he must: "He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient." As our Constitution emphasizes, judges (and Presidents) who are violating their oaths of office by committing high crimes or high misdemeanors (e.g., in 18 U.S.C. 241, 242, 371) should be impeached, tried and removed from office.

    3. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

      SMP0328, it's important to bear in mind how communications and transportation and other circumstances have changed radically over the past 200 years. Now, the president can fairly easily fulfill his duty under Article II to provide information and make recommendations to Congress re: acts of war: “He shall from time to time give to the Congress Information of the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient.”

      Congress can easily meet and communicate it's decisions to authorize force. The changes in circumstances warrant corresponding improvements in our public servants' compliance with our Constitution.

  7. Neutral not Neutered   2 months ago

    I have concluded the writers here are stupid. Not wilfully ignorant or purposely obtuse. They are stupid.

    Why do I say that? Because they write these bullshit articles where they bring false equivalences in for their attempted arguments in favor of their position.

    They are obviously not journalists because they do no research and cite themselves and not reality, facts, truth or actual experts.

    The final paragraph says it all. If Trump is going to pay a price it will be political? How? He can't run and will not run for office again...

    Sure as shit the mid term elections are not going to flip congress to donkeys, they will have to cheat again for that to happen.

    1. Social Justice is neither   2 months ago

      They aren't stupid, they're evil progressive Leftists. Their every argument is to push the progressive Leftist narrative.

      1. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

        MAGAs: Not having illegal offensive wars is an evil leftist position.

        1. CE   2 months ago

          And libertarian leaning conservatives like MTG, Tucker Carlson, Thomas Massie, and Rand Paul are labeled "traitors" and "RINOs" for sticking by their principles of limited constitutional government, America First, and avoiding endless wars, even though Trump ran on those positions just 2 years ago.

    2. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

      Neutral, I'll agree with you there. It is stupid to think that if Trump is going to pay a price it will be political. It's also stupid to think that a legal remedy cannot be crafted by Congress. It's stupid to think that a legal remedy should not be crafted by Congress. That's the very reason Article I also expressly emphasizes that Congress has the power (and duty) to “make all Laws [that are] necessary and proper for carrying into Execution [all Congress's] Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.”

      Congress clearly has the power and the duty to make one or more laws imposing punishment or penalty on presidents who usurp the power to waste the lives, liberty and property of U.S. citizens without due process of law (the authorization that our Constitution requires).

  8. Bruce Hayden   2 months ago

    No one has Standing here. Congress as a whole might. Or even a single house. But not single members.

    And Presidents have been utilizing military force without Congressional declarations of war for 225 years now, since President Adams did so in attacking Muslim pirates/slavers. His political enemy and successor (Jefferson) did the very same thing. Yes, that’s where we got the second line of the Marine Corps hymn “To the shores of Tripoli”.

    1. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

      SCOTUS won't allow anyone to have standing because they don't want the case. But a service member ordered to fight an illegal war should have standing.

      1. Bruce Hayden   2 months ago

        Well, voters disenfranchised by voter fraud in 2020 Should have had Standing too. They didn’t.

        Since we went to a volunteer military, it’s much harder to make your argument. Every person in the military over the last 50 years has been there voluntarily, after signing a contract with the USG. No involuntary servitude, as there was when I was in college.

        1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

          Bruce, recall the suits by servicemembers related to COVID and vaccinations? There's more than one reason a servicemember can bring suit.

    2. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

      Bruce, I don't think you can find any authority that supports your assertion that "No one has standing here." Moreover, we should be quite suspicious of SCOTUS decisions about standing for multiple reasons. One reason is the power of SCOTUS justice to ignore cases that they don't permit them to rule the way they want to rule. SCOTUS justices decide what cases they'll decide. So they can (and very, very often do) deny petitions that don't present issues the way a majority of justices want to address an issue.

      1. Gaear Grimsrud   2 months ago

        Okay. Who has standing? And as you admit SCOTUS and or an inferior court can deny standing and the appellate courts and SCOTUS can decline any appeal without comment. But you imagine that the court is going to save us from the authoritarian president and the recalcitrant Congress. You are living in a parallel universe.

        1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

          Gaear, I don't "imagine that the court is going to save us from the authoritarian president and the recalcitrant Congress." I'm trying to make the same point that Madison (and others) made repeatedly: it's up to us to save ourselves, and to do that we need to know what our Constitution requires of our public servants.

          As Madison warned about allowing ignorant people and ignorance to govern us:

          "A popular Government, without popular information, or the means of acquiring it, is but a Prologue to a Farce or a Tragedy; or, perhaps both. Knowledge will forever govern ignorance: And a people who mean to be their own Governors, must arm themselves with the power which knowledge gives."

        2. Bruce Hayden   2 months ago

          Appeals courts typically don’t dismiss cases on the merits, but can do so on Standing. It’s the Supreme Court where hearing case is often selective, through a Writ of Certiorari.

          1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

            All talk here about standing and remedies is a red herring (or an illustration of the tactic called moving the goal posts).

            The point here is not standing but understanding. People are talking about legislative, executive and judicial powers without knowing (much less understanding) the plain text of our Constitution and what the people who wrote it and caused it to be ratified said it was designed to accomplish.

        3. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

          Gaear, do you recall the suits by servicemembers related to COVID and vaccinations? Do you recall Trump trying to punish Senator Kelly (as a retired officer) for merely having exercised rights secured by the First Amendment? There's more than one reason a servicemember can bring suit.

          Moreover, if a sailor or pilot refused to launch a missile at Iran or Venezuela (or a boat that Trump alleged was manned by Venezuelans) and he was prosecuted for it, would he not be entitled to present a defense? In his defense, could he not argue that he was fulfilling his oath to support and defend our Constitution by refusing to follow an order that violated our Constitution?

          By what authority could a federal court refuse to adjudicate that defense? Article III commands that federal "judicial Power shall extend to all Cases, in Law and Equity, arising under this Constitution, the Laws of the United States, and Treaties" and "to Controversies to which the United States shall be a Party."

  9. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

    Cases about violations of the text of the Constitution are not "political questions". SCOTUS is simply to chickenshit to stand up to the president about wars.

    1. Michael Ejercito   2 months ago

      Why start now?

    2. SMP0328   2 months ago

      SCOTUS is simply [too] chickenshit to stand up to the president about wars.

      For SCOTUS to rule on this matter someone with standing would have to sue to stop the war and the case would have make its way up to the Court. Do you know of such a suit currently in the federal courts?

      1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

        SMP0328, that's a straw man ("For SCOTUS to rule on this matter someone with standing would have to sue to stop the war"). Stopping a war is far from the only potential remedy a plaintiff might seek in a lawsuit.

        1. SMP0328   2 months ago

          Standing means a person as person has to suffering a particularized harm caused by the war not being declared by Congress. Generalized harms don't count (e.g., being a citizen or a taxpayer). Standing is separate from what remedy is being sought. If stopping the war is not the remedy, what would be the point of the lawsuit?

          1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

            SMP0328, as you explained, standing flows from harm, which necessarily is closely related to the remedy being sought. Molly also pointed to people who could have standing to sue, e.g., servicemembers (or their survivors).

            1. Bruce Hayden   2 months ago

              Nope. They are there voluntarily.

              1. Bruce Hayden   2 months ago

                And Gov Tim Walz showed how to get around that by leaving the service.

          2. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

            Money for damages from the illegal war for one.

            1. Bruce Hayden   2 months ago

              But how do you stay out of the Court of Claims, if the suit is against the US? Where equitable remedies are much more difficult. And that is essentially what you are looking for - equitable remedies, based on a monetary claim?

              In England, they have Courts of Equity and Law Courts. Monetary damages mostly fall under Courts of Law, while Injunctions are Equitable remedies. We have combined the two, but they remain separate. Yes, no doubt, some enterprising TDS addled attorney will try to bootstrap the Equitable claims for relief into a suit for monetary damages. But is isn’t going to work, because the Supreme Court is wise to that ploy. They recently rather summarily knocked it down in a recent immigration case. And not for the first time.

      2. MWAocdoc   2 months ago

        This is false. The Supreme Court has original jurisdiction in quite a number of cases explicitly listed in the Constitution.

        1. Bruce Hayden   2 months ago

          Yes, a number are listed. But very few are heard. The vast bulk of their docket is by writ of Certiorari.

    3. JFree   2 months ago

      This is horseshit. This is ENTIRELY about Congress' failure to do its fucking job - and the failure of voters to get the fuck rid of every single asshole in Congress. And at this point - by violence if necessary since elections do not allow voters any control over the outcomes. Congress is easily the biggest threat to the Constitution (what sound does a nonexistent branch make when it breaks) and to the Republic (the only branch that is supposed to ensure representation by the people - res publica) and no one seems to give a shit.

      1. MollyGodiva   2 months ago

        So Congress is the biggest threat to the Constitutions because they are not standing up against Trump for violating the Constitution? That is more MAGA bullshit.

        1. JFree   2 months ago

          Checks and balances is not about different branches having tea together, singing kumbaya, and then deciding what govt must do to the peasants. It is about ambition countering ambition. A fight. A contest between the different branches.

          If necessary - a Parliament that funds its own army and then chops the head off a king because that King conducted three wars without getting the approval of Parliament for those wars/taxation/etc.

          1. MWAocdoc   2 months ago

            Libertarians are fond of pointing out that complex socioeconomic systems are not zero-sum games. Likewise, government power careers are not zero-sum games either. The bigger the government and it's power grows, the more career opportunities there are for power-hungry officials. Kumbaya it is! The Founders missed the boat on this one. Who could ever have foreseen that powerful interests would cooperate instead checking each other?

            1. JFree   2 months ago

              I think founders did include a check on each of those branches to be exercised by the people directly rather than by the other branches. Jury system is a check on judges and prosecutors. Militia is a check on CinC power. And the original first amendment sent to the states involved representation in the House being explicit rather than by legislative statute - which would have meant a current House of 6000 (nearly ungovernable) rather than 435 (easily corruptible). But that wasn't ratified because of a typo.

              So it's possible founders gave us a true Republic - and we chose to squander it. That latter check could imo also be done - and better nowadays - by sortition - same as jury system - rather than elections.

            2. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

              MWAocdoc, if you read some of the Federalist Papers and other contributions to the discussion of our Constitution when it was being ratified you'd know that thought a lot about powerful interests cooperating instead of checking each other. Virtually every aspect of our Constitution was designed to prevent anyone from having too much power--precisely because they foresaw people trying usurp powers or combine with people in other branches to undermine our liberty. Madison made both these points explicitly in Federalist No. 47:

              "The accumulation of all powers, legislative, executive, and judiciary, in the same hands, whether of one, a few, or many" (e.g., in the President, the Senate, SCOTUS or the House of Representatives or in any faction) is "the very definition of tyranny." "[T]he preservation of liberty requires that the three great departments of power should be separate and distinct."

              As Montesquieu said, "There can be no liberty where the legislative and executive powers are united in the same person, or body of magistrates," or, "if the power of judging be not separated from the legislative and executive powers," but "he did not mean that these departments ought to have no PARTIAL AGENCY in, or no CONTROL over, the acts of each other."

              "When the legislative and executive powers are united in the same person or body," says he, "there can be no liberty, because apprehensions may arise lest THE SAME monarch or senate should ENACT tyrannical laws to EXECUTE them in a tyrannical manner. " Again: "Were the power of judging joined with the legislative, the life and liberty of the subject would be exposed to arbitrary control, for THE JUDGE would then be THE LEGISLATOR.
              Were it joined to the executive power, THE JUDGE might behave with all the violence of AN OPPRESSOR."

              In Federalist 48, Madison emphasized that the 3 "departments" also must "be so far connected and blended as to give to each a constitutional control over the others." "[T]he powers properly belonging to one of the departments ought not to be directly and completely administered by either of the other departments" and "none of them ought to possess, directly or indirectly, an overruling influence over the others, in the administration of their respective powers."

              The overarching problem is "that power is of an encroaching nature, and that it ought to be effectually restrained from passing the limits assigned to it." It is not "sufficient to mark," even "with precision, the boundaries of these departments, in the constitution of the government, and to trust to these parchment barriers against the encroaching spirit of power."

              In fact, the creators of state constitutions (and the U.S. Constitution) "never for a moment [ ] turned their eyes from the danger to liberty from the overgrown and all-grasping prerogative of an [executive] magistrate, supported and fortified by [a compliant or complacent] branch of the legislative authority." Everyone understood that due to "the ambitious intrigues of their executive magistrates, tyranny" could arise as a result of the executive invoking "some favorable emergency."

              For that very reason, in our state and federal constitution "[t]he legislative department derives a superiority in our governments" from its "constitutional powers," which are "more extensive, and less susceptible of precise limits" than the executive's power.

              Madison concluded Federalist 48 by warning "that a mere demarcation on parchment of the constitutional limits of the several departments, is not a sufficient guard against those encroachments which lead to a tyrannical concentration of all the powers of government in the same hands."

              In Federalist 10, Madison clarified that "faction" means anyone "whether amounting to a majority or a minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion, or of interest, adversed to the rights of other citizens, or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community." The Constitution was designed to "secure the public good and private rights against the danger of such a faction, and at the same time to preserve the spirit and the form of popular government." It was designed to be "a republican remedy for the diseases most incident to republican government."

    4. Bruce Hayden   2 months ago

      And risk over 200 years of soft power carefully accumulated since Marbury v Madison. What happens if the Executive just says “No” when the Judiciary tells them to stop? The Supreme Court is not going to bet all of their hard earned marbles on that.

      1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

        Bruce, how is that even relevant? Isn't the point here to try to discern the meaning of the relevant parts of our Constitution?

    5. Bruce Hayden   2 months ago

      You are 225 years too late there.

  10. Andy Hawks   2 months ago

    Justice Gorsuch's ratchet problem is also relevant here. Even if a President gets Congressional authorization to start a war, Congress can't stop a war without a two-thirds majority to override a presidential veto of any anti-war resolution. (Note: Cutting funding never works because of "you have to support the troops.") We need a constitutional amendment that allows Congress to repeal laws (not just war resolutions) by a simple majority that is not subject to a presidential veto.

    1. JFree   2 months ago

      Note: Cutting funding never works because of "you have to support the troops."

      This is precisely why we created the Constitution to be dependent on a militia - on SERVICE not merely taxes/debt - rather than a mercenary standing army. With a militia (or conscription), it is the troops themselves who continually 'vote' to stay in the fight or go home.

      They may still have to deal with the risks of going AWOL or fragging newly indoctrinated officers or such. But that is merely an additional step that restrains for those times when Congress is completely corrupt and goes along with the tyranny of a centralized government that is both corrupt and oligarchic.

    2. Bruce Hayden   2 months ago

      And the last time that happened was when the heavily Dem Congress overrode Nixon’s veto of the WPA.

  11. MWAocdoc   2 months ago

    Agreed that the Supreme Court has been absent without leave for over a century. But also disagree that the President does not have the authority to attack Iran, whether it was a good idea or not. Not all military attacks are wars in the sense that the Constitution requires a declaration of war from Congress. No one in her right mind would say that the armed forces of the United States should not immediately defend against military attacks upon the United States as an emergency measure. It therefore makes sense that the Congress would legalize such temporary military actions while it determines whether a declaration of war is appropriate for ongoing military actions as a result.

    Of course, North Korea attacking South Korea (indeed, the entire meddling by us in drawing such a line in Korea after World War Two in the first place) was not an attack on the United States; nor was France abandoning Vietnam and the resulting civil war there an attack on the United States; neither were emergencies requiring immediate military defense of the United States, temporarily bypassing the Constitutional limitations. None of the wars since then - Iraq, Afghanistan, Lebanon, Libya etc etc etc - were attacks upon the United States except for the Al Qaeda destruction of the Pentagon and the World Trade Towers, and they were not even remotely to be considered to be military requiring an immediate military response while Congress considered a declaration of war. Declaration of war against whom? A stateless Al Qaeda?

    1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

      MWAocdoc, Congress did not (and could not without compelling cause) "say that the armed forces of the United States should not immediately defend against military attacks upon the United States as an emergency measure." See my response to Gaear, above, quoting the 1973 War Powers Resolution and the provisions of our Constitution that the Resolution echoed. But what Trump has done to Iran and in Venezuela clearly is not "immediately defend against military attacks upon the United States as an emergency measure."

      1. MWAocdoc   2 months ago

        Totally agree that Trump did not have any justification for attacking Iran at this time under the War Powers Act. I did not want to load that into my already lengthy post above since several other people had already said it.

        1. Dillinger   2 months ago

          Congress didn't agree with you.

  12. BYODB   2 months ago

    Fucking idiot.

    SCOTUS isn't the part of the U.S. government that can do something about this, Congress is.

    This is because Congress already acted by legislation which is how we arrived here in the first place.

    Does Root believe that if SCOTUS ruled that those prior acts were unconstitutional that Congress would suddenly do their job, or does he think they'll just pass something else that passes the buck to the Executive branch to do their job while endlessly whining about it, only with slightly different verbiage?

    1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

      BYODB, SCOTUS, alone, may not be able to remedy the situation, but it certainly can be part of the solution. Even if a particular president ignores SCOTUS, a well-reasoned SCOTUS opinion will carry a lot of weight--now and in the future. In fact, it's very common for courts to rule that federal officials have no immunity if SCOTUS has already said their conduct is unconstitutional.

  13. Rossami   2 months ago

    Right problem, wrong solution. Root frames this as the "U.S. Supreme Court has proven itself unwilling over the past half-century or so to hear cases challenging the usurpation of that congressional power by the executive" but that's not what's actually happening. The executive is not usurping congressional power, the legislature is abrogating their own power.

    That's a key distinction. And what makes it unchallengable is not some evil decision by SCOTUS but the principle of absolute legislative immunity. Simply put, they (Congress) are allowed to abandon their jobs until we voters impose consequences at the ballot box. Yes, what Congress is doing is unconsciounable and wrong. But fixing it is our job, not the court's.

    1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

      Rossami, your argument makes no sense (not a "key distinction"). Congress isn't necessarily abrogating (or abdicating) its own power by merely failing to declare war. That's actually exercising legislative power that the People vested exclusively in those of our representatives whom we have the power to elect (and remove) directly. They're making a legislative decision not to declare war, which is fulfilling their duty to support our Constitution.

      The people who wrote (and many who voted to ratify) our Constitution understood that choosing a war may be the fastest way possible to deprive the nation, itself, and many of its people of life, liberty and property without due process of law. They knew (and considered) the fact that the people of Athens, themselves, ended the Golden Age of Greece and essentially destroyed their own nation by choosing to attack Syracuse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Expedition.

      In Federalist No 6, they wrote about the Peloponnesian War, the man who led Athenians into it, and his petty motivations, and its devastating conclusion in terms similar to those being used about Trump today:

      "The celebrated Pericles, in compliance with the resentment of a prostitute, at the expense of much of the blood and treasure of his countrymen, attacked, vanquished, and destroyed the city of the SAMNIANS. The same man, stimulated by private pique against the MEGARENSIANS, another nation of Greece, or to avoid a prosecution with which he was threatened as an accomplice of a supposed theft of the statuary Phidias, or to get rid of the accusations prepared to be brought against him for dissipating the funds of the state in the purchase of popularity, or from a combination of all these causes, was the primitive author of that famous and fatal war, distinguished in the Grecian annals by the name of the PELOPONNESIAN war; which, after various vicissitudes, intermissions, and renewals, terminated in the ruin of the Athenian commonwealth."

      1. Rossami   2 months ago

        Sorry, Jack, but they are doing far more than merely choosing to not declare war - they are actively passing laws that assert their right to delegate their authority to the executive. They are actively choosing to block debate over specific war powers authorizations. They have taken no actions using their undisputed 'power of the purse' to rein in improper actions but have instead affirmatively funded those undeclared 'military actions'. Congress has for a century or more been sending clear and repeated messages to the courts and to the public that they want the executive branch to be making these decisions. They are abandoning their responsibilities to exercise "[a]ll legislative Powers".

        I agree with your history lesson and concerns about the authority to declare war but disagree with your conclusion. Our Founders vested that authority in Congress for very good reasons. And it's Congress's fault that they are failing to use that authority.

        1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

          Rossami, you're right about what Congress is doing wrong. That's also a powerful reason that SCOTUS should (and must) address the violations of our Constitution by the President and by Congress.

      2. Rossami   2 months ago

        By the way, you are correct that I should have said "abdicate", not "abrogate". My error.

    2. JFree   2 months ago

      Agree 100%. But Congress' failure is unfixable - and in large part because of the Supreme Court. Gerrymandering eliminates the voter from influence in elections because it allows political parties and incumbents to decide to decide how rotten the boroughs will be. Those parties and incumbents are corrupted by the same people who have corrupted the executive - and now the SC as well.

      1. Dillinger   2 months ago

        >>and in large part because of the Supreme Court.

        Marbury the most incorrect decision ever.

        1. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

          Dillinger, what language that I quoted from Marbury in this thread was incorrect? None. People reasonably can take issue with aspects of Marbury, but not the parts addressing the plain text of our Constitution and explaining/emphasizing its meaning and power.

          People reasonably can take issue with how judges abuse Marbury by cherry picking parts that support their aggrandizement while ignoring more important, more relevant parts. Yet, such judicial conduct or misconduct only serves to highlight that we should not “play make-believe" and "assume that men in gowns are angels,” as Justice Frankfurter emphasized in his concurring opinion in Pennekamp v. Florida.

          As Justices Gorsuch and Thomas and Chief Justice Roberts in their dissenting opinion in Gundy v. United States in 2019 (in part, quoting Madison in 1788) emphasized, our Constitution was written and ratified by the People to establish “the people’s sovereign power” precisely because the people who wrote it and ratified it knew that “men are not angels,” and people with power always will “threaten” other people’s “rights.”

          Those are only reasons for the rest of us to see Marbury and our Constitution for their true worth. The SCOTUS opinion in Marbury and our Constitution confirm that SCOTUS justices have no power to refuse to adjudicate the violations of our Constitution by the President or Congress when such violations are relevant to a case or controversy.

          1. Dillinger   2 months ago

            I was replying to JewFree's complaint not criticizing you.

            edit: ya I'm not taking any jurisprudence lessons from either one of these guys.

    3. mad.casual   2 months ago

      That's a key distinction.

      You'd almost get the impression that some "Do *something*!" TDS is purely performative or distracting from achieving any real change.

  14. Dillinger   2 months ago

    didn't the Supremes tell Congress to fuck off about WPA in like 2002?

  15. Gaear Grimsrud   2 months ago

    Yeah and every president has at least questioned the validity of the WPR. And the act itself distinguishes a declaration of war from statutory authority, which is the point of the legislation, and national emergency, presumably defined by the executive. Congress can certainly make the case that a president has exceeded his or her authority and deny funding or pass specific legislation to remedy the case or impeach the president. But again Congress declined to do any of those things just a few weeks ago. There is no controversy between the branches. But you seem to imagine that a federal court will order Congress to do one of the above. Not going to happen.

    1. Gaear Grimsrud   2 months ago

      This was meant as a response to Damon/Jack above. Someday I'll figure this out.

    2. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

      Gaear, you're resorting to red herrings, straw men and moving the goal post. It's irrelevant that "There is no controversy between the branches." There was no controversy between the branches in Marbury v. Madison or regarding the Sedition Act of 1798.

      I don't "imagine that a federal court will order Congress to do one of the above." I'm writing about what the law (our Constitution) actually says and actually means. I'm not writing about (or imagining) whether any of our public servants actually will stop violating our Constitution (the law).

  16. Uomo Del Ghiaccio   2 months ago

    Trump should not have gotten us into the Israeli war against Iran and at the very least there should have been a vote and formal declaration of war before we got involved.

    However this is nothing new or unique to Trump. Every other president has done something surprisingly similar. We have been in a constant state of war since WWII, but there hasn't been a declaration of war since WWII.

    The legislative branch need to reign in these powers, because they are being abused by the executive branch regardless if the president is a democrat or a republican. Honestly, I don't even believe that this is due to our presidents, but rather the various non-elected deep state players and lobbyists pulling strings to force presidents into some sort of stupid act of war.

    1. Bruce Hayden   2 months ago

      Ain’t gonna happen. The heavily Dem Congress passed the WPA over Nixon’s veto. By the end of that decade, to the present, no President has faced a Congress with the opposition party having the numbers to override his veto on critical issues.

  17. Longtobefree   2 months ago

    Think it through; the only way to make the current military actions unconstitutional is to declare the War Powers Act unconstitutional.
    Trump is following the law, as congress passed it.
    If congress really wants to insist on being the only ones to allow military action, they can just repeal that act.
    Of course, then they would have to actually show up and vote on the record each time military actions was appropriate, and that would let the enemy know what was coming, causing increased casualties among our troops.

    1. Bruce Hayden   2 months ago

      I agree. Took a couple times reading it to get there.

      The WPA was essentially a delegation of power to the Executive. To get to the question of whether Article I’s War Declaring power can limit Article II’s CinC power, you have to get by the question of whether the Executive is just utilizing the power delegated to it by Congress under the WPA. Almost always, this issue is bypassed by the Executive mostly conforming to the WPA (the real exception apparently having been Obama Having stayed in Libya too long without Congressional approval).

    2. Jack Jordan   2 months ago

      Longtobefree, it's not true that "the only way to make the current military actions unconstitutional is to declare the War Powers Act unconstitutional." Judges aren't the only public servants who are bound by and bound to support our Constitution. All are public servants (and all lawyers) are bound by and bound to support our Constitution. See, e.g. 5 U.S.C. 3331 and the oath clauses of Articles II and VI. The President is as responsible as judges for complying with our Constitution. That's why Article II requires every president at the start of every term to publicly and explicitly acknowledge that all executive power is limited to the duty to "faithfully execute the Office of President," i.e., to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution."

    3. CE   2 months ago

      Trump violated the WPA when he ordered the first bomb to be dropped:

      Section 2(c) - Purpose and Policy: Declares that the President's powers as Commander-in-Chief to introduce forces into hostilities can only be exercised pursuant to:

      "(1) a declaration of war,"
      "(2) specific statutory authorization, or"
      "(3) a national emergency created by attack upon the United States, its territories or possessions, or its armed forces".

      Where was the national emergency? When was the attack? Months or years ago? There was plenty of time to negotiate in the weeks and months prior to the American attack on Iran, so obviously no threat was imminent.

  18. JFree   2 months ago

    Yes indeed. Lawyers will save us and put America back on the right track.

  19. Incunabulum   2 months ago

    One thing Root just assumes is true is that SCOTUS has the authority to review everything.

    Does SCOTUS have the authority to review this? If SCOTUS were to say no, what is their remedy? To order Congress to take action against the President?

    1. jimc5499   2 months ago

      "One thing Root just assumes is true is that SCOTUS has the authority to review everything."
      Unless it goes against his or Reason's wishes. This is just another attack article on Trump. Like the "illegal order" bullshit, this is to delegitimize Trump's actions. If it were an "honest" article, Root would have called out Clinton's and Obama's violation of the WPA.

  20. Arcxjo   2 months ago

    Since Congress passed the War Powers Act (and insisted by overridingthe veto), they've declared perpetual war. Nowhere the president sends troops is unconstitutional now.

  21. James K. Polk   2 months ago

    The Supreme Court doesn't just make rulings on its own whims. Who would have standing to sue? Presumably, only Congress. So how does that work? How does Congress sue the President? It doesn't match any of the scenarios under which SCOTUS has original jurisdiction, so it would have to be filed in a lower court. Which one?

    The whole thing just doesn't fit and doesn't work. The founders provided the impeachment power to be used in cases like this.

    1. CE   2 months ago

      Draftees in a war should have standing to sue. But we don't have a draft right now.

  22. Thoritsu   2 months ago

    Right after Korea, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria and one hundred others.

    1. CE   2 months ago

      Congress voted to authorize the use of military force against Iraq, in 2002. The President didn't just start bombing.

      1. Incunabulum   2 months ago

        Obama did

  23. CE   2 months ago

    The 1973 War Powers Act was supposed to resolve the situation, leaving the President free to respond to imminent threats and actual attacks, and leaving Congress with the veto power to wind down operations after they were started in an emergency.

    Instead the WPA is used by presidents of both parties as a free pass to take military action at any time for any reason, and then notify Congress. Except Congress is then pressured to not "tie the President's hands during a war" because the war has already started. It's easier to ask for forgiveness than permission wins again.

    The real way to enforce WPA violations is to start impeachment proceedings, a threat which has no teeth when Congress is split 50-50 or close to that.

    And it's all unnecessary. Congress would never pull funding to prevent the President from responding to an actual crisis. And if the case to wage war on Iran (or anyone else) even without an active or imminent threat is so clear, then making the case to Congress to declare war should not be controversial.

  24. Sequel   2 months ago

    " In Youngstown Sheet and Tube Company v. Sawyer (1952), for example, the Court famously rejected President Harry Truman's claim that his "inherent" executive authority allowed him to seize control of most privately owned American steel mills during the Korean War as a national security measure. "

    The constitutional question was the President's attempt to assert a power exclusively given to the Congress --- to seize private property by paying fair market value.

    The President isn't intruding on Congress's exclusive power to declare war, but the Congress is now attempting to intrude on the President's exclusive Commander-in-Chief powers to carry out acts of war. The Constitution does not require a declaration of war, nor does such a declaration require the President to carry out a war.

  25. MonitorsMost   2 months ago

    I agree with the thrust of the article, but not the specifics. We don’t know why the Court declined to hear Laird, but as Justice Douglas’ dissent frames the question, it’s whether the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution constitutes a Declaration of War under Article 1, Section 8, Clause 11. I think the answer is yes, as the Constitution does not specify a procedure for Congress declaring war, and the arguments against it boil down to it not being titled a Declaration of War.

    The case I would cite to is Schlesinger v. Holtzman regarding the bombing of Cambodia. Douglas’ dissent regarding the bombing violating the 5th Amendment right to due process is looney tunes, but that would be a case where SCOTUS refused to hear a case regarding military action that did not appear to fall within a Congressional authorization.

    1. Anastasia Beaverhausen   2 months ago

      So if the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution constituted a Declaration of War, do you then agree that the rescinding of that Resolution in 1971 should have resulted in the immediate end of the war?

  26. LIBtranslator   2 months ago

    Did Germany's Christian National Socialist judges review the legality of exterminating six million of those other semitic people?

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