The Real Reason Golden Ages Collapse—and How the U.S. Can Avoid It
Past societies tried to regulate their way to stability. But it came at a great cost.
While campaigning, President Donald Trump said, "We're a nation in decline."
Now that he's president, the left agrees.
"We are witnessing the collapse and implosion of the American empire," says Cornell West.
Are the predictors of doom correct? Will America collapse like so many civilizations before us?
If we don't learn from history, says historian Johan Norberg, that might happen.
"It's a clash within every civilization on whether they should keep going, be open to innovation and progress, or whether they should retreat and decline," he says in my new video.
His book, Peak Human: What We Can Learn from History's Greatest Civilizations, looks at the "golden ages" of Ancient Athens, Ancient Rome, Song China, the Abbasid Dynasty in Baghdad, Renaissance Italy, the Dutch Republic, and the Anglosphere.
Norberg argues that once people acquire a certain amount of comfort, they say, "'We want stability, protection, we want someone to take care of us.'…That's what leads to stagnation."
People in power are generally comfortable with that.
"They've built their power on a particular system of production, certain ideas, a particular mentality….Whereas trade, innovation, growth, it's all about change….What sets these golden ages apart is that, for a period of time, they managed to lift themselves above that and give more people more freedoms. That also allowed them to experiment more and come up with better technologies and raise living standards."
Greece once led the world. Rome, too. Not anymore. Why?
Because people want "safety, stability, protection," says Norberg. "They slow things down, get that stability, but they also get stagnation and poverty."
China experienced a golden age during the Song Dynasty.
"They had more freedom than other Chinese dynasties….More openness to new ideas from strange places….[Farmers] were allowed to experiment with new grain, new forms of rice from Vietnam, and to trade with others. They came up with constant innovations. It became a very urbanized society that ushered in incredible experiments with iron, steel, textile, machines."
The government scrapped laws that had limited what could and couldn't be sold. They allowed markets to stay open all night (something not allowed before).
"In traditional Chinese society, people had fixed areas where they were allowed to live and where they had to return after having done a day's work. People did not mingle and meet people from other classes, other professions….Under the Song Dynasty, the walls were torn down….They began to mingle with one another….They could do more business, listen to concerts, go to religious ceremonies. Eventually, Chinese society realized that this is how you make progress. This is how we become wealthier. When more people meet, when more people exchange goods and services and ideas, they prosper."
But after the Mongols invaded, the Chinese banned ocean voyages and foreign trade. They stifled the experimentation that had made them rich.
"They wanted stability after all this uncertainty and chaos. 'How do we do that?'…By regulating everything, telling people to stay in their places….They got stability. They also got 500 years of stagnation, 500 years that turned the richest and greatest civilization on the planet to a desperately poor country."
If any country is in a golden age today, I would think it's America, and Norberg agrees.
"I wouldn't want to live anywhere else in human history. We have made such remarkable progress when it comes to expanding freedoms, reducing poverty, increasing life expectancy."
But the American experiment is now 250 years old. Few golden ages last that long. Once affluent, people want stability, and a government that resists change.
"That then undermines the innovation that we need to keep golden ages going," warns Norberg. "If we want a golden age to keep going, we have to fight for it."
How?
"Double down on the institutions of liberal democracy, free markets, and unleash new waves of innovation and of progress. There is still time. We can still save this golden age."
COPYRIGHT 2025 BY JFS PRODUCTIONS INC.
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I'm reading this book... I'm only partways into the chapter about the Romans... I have a Roman nose... Shit is roaming all over the place!
The Romans, in their howdy hey-day, had slaves, yes, butt so did everyone else, back in the day. They did SNOT have illegal sub-humans or Magic Papers! "Them damned ferriners" were allowed to become Senators and Emperors, even! Compare that to the USA, where the Emperor MUST be native-born! Even Elongated Tusk-Musk can SNOT becum the Emperor!
Snooty nativism... "I DESERVE all the Best Shit; I am ENTITLED to the BEST, 'cause I was born here, and 'Them damned ferriners and illegal sub-humans need to be PUNISHED with tariffs and 'Magic Papers Please', and sudden surprise missiles into their boats when they travel peacefully on the high seas, and stealing their "sanctioned" oil tankers', etc.", and ALL of this xenophobic, smug superiority will be the death of us yet! We'll not last as long as the Roman Republic-then-Empire lasted, if we INSIST on despising all of "Them damned ferriners and illegal sub-humans", unlike the more tolerant and broad-minded Romans!
If'n ye want a higher standard of living, ye entitled LEECHES, ye might try WORKING for it in honest and open (mutually beneficial) competition with ALL others, instead of trying to MILK your native-born status, and always PUNISHING that them thar dirty ferriners!
Or to summarize.....
Every 'peak human' civilization collapsed due-to people who believe 'Guns' would make them sh*t.
Turning the 'halls of justice' into the 'halls of theft'.
THEFT doesn't make sh*t. It's a zero-sum resources track leading to utter despair.
And the USA is definitely on that track in violation of the US Constitution.
And lets not pretend that 'immigrant' is auto-equivalent to innovative and productive as the current 'immigrant' into the USA is 80% in support of the very "Guns will make us sh*t" faith.
As-if the sh*thole from whence they came/created didn't give that away.
Golden societies fall when too many people from non-golden societies get through the gates.
If you would read this book with an open mind, you would see that the exact opposite is true! What if the Native Americans had managed to SNOT let ONE single invader get into the New World? Would they still be cutting the beating hearts out of sacrificial humans?
(Dear Orange Caligula at least wants to let Mike Pence get off relatively pain-free... Getting hung is probably a better way to go, than to get your beating heart cut out.)
What if the Native Americans had managed to SNOT let ONE single invader get into the New World?
They wouldn’t be living on reservations.
The innovations of Europe that Native Americans didn't enjoy totally didn't have any adverse consequences in the peaceful co-habitation and economic globalization of the now-diverse, pan-global peoples, even without conflict. You can be as sure of that as the fact that Johan Norberg is insightful and brilliant, rather than just regurgitating optimistic futurism/humanistism and thoroughly-debunked-and-oxymoronic globalist pablum.
Mostly peaceful human sacrifice?
Oh, and widespread war and slavery.
Cultural sacrifices and cultural state craft you mean.
There is no universe where the 'Native Americans' weren't conquered by the Europeans. They didn't advance for thousands of years and were still literal stone age cultures while the Europeans were using guns and steel. Think about that for longer than two seconds.
It's why 11 ships of Spaniards nearly conquered the continent, not to mention all the intertribal betrayals of 'their own people'.
"They didn't advance for thousands of years and were still literal stone age cultures while the Europeans were using guns and steel. Think about that for longer than two seconds."
A bunch of people using guns and steel to conquer literal stone age cultures is hardly anything to boast about. And where did Europe's guns and steel get them? Hundreds of years of internecine warfare - is the host the actual body of Christ or does it merely represent Him - culminating in the World Wars of the previous century and continuing today.
That’s not a boast, misconstrueman, it’s the hard reality of an advanced civilization getting in their mind to occupy new territory.
It is a boast. The use of italics is a dead giveaway.
Human sacrifice wasn't a thing among American Indians who lived in what became the US. It was a thing in what became Mexico. The Aztecs imploded in part because the many people they enslaved decided the Spanish might treat them better. They were wrong.
Yup. Being captured for later sacrifice is way worse than being slaughtered in your hut. And then eaten. Which those noble Amerinds totally never did.
Some of my direct ancestors survived an Indian attack in the early 1620s that killed a third of the English colonists in Virginia.
But MAGA would think that they deserved that fate. They were all illegal immigrants. They didn't ask the Powhatan Confederacy for visas.
Yeah, no.
"Which those noble Amerinds totally never did."
They certainly did. Dismemberment and torture were the norm or the victims the Indians deemed to have died a cowardly death, and that was the case for most of the US Army casualties in the wars of genocide against the Sioux and other bands. There were exceptions. Read up on Adolph Metzger, a German born bugler in the US army. He kept firing until he ran out of ammo and then bashed assailants over the head with his bugle. After sustaining multiple wounds he finally succumbed, and out of respect for his courage, the noble Amerinds laid a buffalo robe over his corpse.
"He who is only an athlete is too crude, too vulgar, too much a savage. He who is a scholar only is too soft, to effeminate. The ideal citizen is the scholar athlete, the man of thought and the man of action." - Plato
Not that there are no barbarians at the gates, but not every society collapses from the outside in.
https://chessboxingnation.com
Problem solved
Or combine golf and football (the American kind).
Norberg argues that once people acquire a certain amount of comfort, they say, "'We want stability, protection, we want someone to take care of us.'
[bites apple Poilievre-style] What people? What are their names? They aren't exactly libertarians if they elide the distinction(s) between stability and being cared for by other people. And there's a pretty good case to be had that they're at least subversive, if not dishonest, violent, insane sociopaths if they don't see that stability and the simple acquisition of comfort aren't conceivably the proximate cause of social instability and collapse.
America was founded on the idea that you are responsible for your own protection; that horse trading freedom for security is a losing game. A significant portion of the country is quite content to work with their hands in the dirt with a gun on their hip in order to provide their own stability and protection for them and theirs. To the point that the people opposite them feel compelled to openly induce violent instability against them.
I don't disagree that there are strong reflections of Rome in our modern society. Our model of representative democracy among citizens, rather than transients and migrants or even, more in Rome's case and less in ours going forward, slaves. The associated fall by wholesale transfers of both wealth and power out and around the power structure, to both good and bad results; but this 'analysis' is rather overtly working backwards from a false utopia where, despite all the evidence, innovation merely and at best abates stagnation and poverty, rather than eliminating it. Where innovation even with the explicit aim of equality, somehow, doesn't distinctly cause the same stagnation by holding people back.
This feels like a thinkpiece from someone who, rather than actually innovating, seeing their own innovation turned back on them first hand or being preyed upon for the fruit of their own labor, looks passed the multitudinous mountains of dead bodies to Rome or Ancient China and sees nothing but men peacefully co-existing with each other. Someone who, themselves, has grown comfortable and stagnant in their own ideology despite the fact that, rather overtly and objectively, we have (re-)entered a/the era when man's most deadly foe isn't drought or famine or plague, but other men.
"America was founded on the idea that you are responsible for your own protection"
But every English colony implemented the remarkably generous Elizabethan Poor Law. Those less well off were provided for.
Nothings says building a New Nation of Freedom like escaping the old one and implementing the exact same policies as the old one?
Ya! Do the exact same thing and expect a different result! /s
Think they call that STUPID.
Hard times create strong men.
Strong men create good times.
Good times create weak men.
And, weak men create hard times << we are here
Stalin created good times? Millions of Kazakhs will be surprised to here this.
Not to mention Ukrainians and Tartars.
You two are imbeciles.
Strong imbeciles create great comments.
Why is the US declining? Education. Standards have been lowered, test scores have plummeted, and kids are growing up fucking stupid. People believe lies and propaganda. That's how we got MAGA, a bunch of idiot conspiracy theory peddling anti-vaxxers. That's how we got DEI with revisionist history and open discrimination in the name of not discriminating. It's retards all the way down.
This could ve the most retarded take you've ever had sarc.
Democrats fully own the educational complex. From Jimmy Carter to the unions. Yet you blame MAGA. Even linking DEI yo MAGA. Youre fucking retarded.
Also you continue to call everyone who was right on cobid, right on fraud, right on the economy, right on dem corruption, etc etc conspiracy theorists while you pushed every leftist lie. Including here where you claim MAGA is responsible for lack of education, such as yours.
Democrats rely on village idiots. You are a prime example.
Just the other day someone here was trotting out the line that Hitler was a Socialist. When I challenged, the response came in the form of a long quote from a campaign speech Joe Goebbels, the Nazi propaganda minister. The same responder, I suspect a DEI anti-vaxxer and retard, earlier was criticizing the mainstream media as full of lies and not to be believed. Yet the Nazi's chief propagandist is put forward as the fount of truth. The dishonesty, lack of reflection and critical thinking is shocking.
Ya know like saying a [Na]tional So[zi]alist isn't a Socialist.
Indeed, "The dishonesty, lack of reflection and critical thinking is shocking."
But not as shocking when you realize the very reason the left is so stupid they Self-Project everything and therefore render themselves exempt from LEARNING anything.
Is that what Goebbels told you? Himmler? Or do you have some other Nazi you want to cite as a gold standard authority figure? You goose stepping DEI retards will never learn.
It's in EVERY F'EN DICTIONARY under the Sun.
German; National-Sozialistische - The National Socialist German Workers’ Party.
"Nazi Party, political party of the mass movement known as National Socialism."
Abbreviation: Nazi. [Na]tional-So[zi]alistische
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Nazi-Party
What's next? You're going to claim that America's States are United? China is a Peoples' Republic? North Korea is a Democracy? Trump is Making America Great? Again?
Awww, poor misconstrueman is triggered when you point out the truth.
I'm triggered when fools try to claim that Nazis are the repositories of Truth. Sosume.
Why's that?
Because the 'German' (the identifier you skip) Nazi's were more aligned with today's [D]emocratic [Na]tional So[zi]alist[s] than they are with the 'real socialists' (i.e. pure-communists)?
Hitler Oct 9, 1934, "The view that the utilization of a fortune no matter of what size is solely the private affair of the individual requires to be corrected all the more in the National Socialist state, because without the contribution of the community no individual would have been able to enjoy such an advantage."
Obama July 13, 2012, "if you've been successful, you didn't get there on your own." ... "If you've got a business, you didn't build that. Somebody else made that happen." ... "we do things together."
...and the only reason [WE] Identify-as 'triggers' exist today is because [D]emon-craps started Gov-'Gun' rationing goods.
'Guns' don't make sh*t. So when 'Guns' are asked to supply goods for people the only blatantly obvious outcome is that it has to Identify WHO gets ripped off and WHO get *entitled*.
Thus killing Individual Liberty & Justice for all trading system into a WHICH-GANG gets the criminal 'Guns' in Government. Every curse seen in politics today is directly a consequence of supporting "Gov Gimmie" and ignorance to what 'Gov' really is/makes it unique.
You tell us 'If Hitler said it, it must be true.' I can only conclude you are wearing a frock coat, carrying an umbrella and waving a flimsy sheet of paper. (Chamberlain returning from Munich)
Wrong. I said today's [D]emocratic [Na]tional So[zi]alist[s] are more aligned with the German Nazis than pure socialism/communism.
And here is Obama stating the exact same thing as Hitler did proving that point.
Obama is a liar. Surely you've learned that by now. What's next, citing Biden, Netanyahu, and the New York Times?
You think it's just Obama & Hitler who thinks that way?
It has literally been a master bullet-point on the DNC parties platform since FDR.
If prosperity derives from unlimited innovation, then our next wave of billionaires should all be transgender.
If it's truly unlimited, we'll all be transgender.
"Double down on the institutions of liberal democracy, free markets, and unleash new waves of innovation and of progress. There is still time. We can still save this golden age."
The past few decades have given us plenty of innovation. Most significant is the digitalization we've experienced. Has it been liberatory? Maybe on the margins, as recent events in Nepal have demonstrated. But in the Metropole? The surveillance and fragmentation that has come about has the opposite effect. Innovation is not the panacea that Stossel believes it to be. It's notable that he can't offer even one example of a society, let alone a society in golden age, that has sustained itself through innovation. The most long lasting, durable societies are the most stagnant and unchanging. Look at the Inuit of the Arctic or the San in Kalahari. Once they start to innovate, alcoholism, violence and disease start to take their toll.
Granted, the Inuit or the San never 'led the world' but neither did Greece or Rome, despite Stossel's grandiose claims.
I we're looking for innovation, archeology tells us to avoid places like Athens or Rome. What are human's most significant innovations? Fire, metallurgy, the matching of the horse with the wheel. None of these can be traced to a society experiencing a golden age. None came about as a result of doubling down on the institutions of Liberal Democracy or Free Markets.
China's golden age included the invention of paper, printing, the magnetic compass, and black powder.
I've never been a big fan of the Song dynasty. I've long preferred the Tang from about 600 to 900. If only because the game of Go was invented in this era, and many beautiful art works.
From Wikipedia:
Historians generally regard the Tang as a high point in Chinese civilisation, and a golden age of cosmopolitan culture.[9] Tang territory, acquired through the military campaigns of its early rulers, rivalled that of the Han dynasty.
Gun powder was Tang. Magnetic compass and paper was Han, and the printing press was Song. You're spoiled for choice when it comes to Chinese Golden Ages.
The assumptions in this article do not coincide with the discussion itself. First of all, if America is, indeed, an empire then I prefer that it decline from that peak and stop being an empire. On the other hand, America has always been a virtually unassailable power in the world, and I do not want it to decline from that admirable and lofty height. The assumptions I mentioned seem to be an amalgamation of various things that should not be lumped together. From the point of view of the American society it may be true that increasing numbers of Americans want to rest and be taken care of instead of being open to innovation and continuing to struggle to improve. If so, they can only get away with that if the government steps into the role of nanny at the expense of the rest of us. I do not approve, and the problem is easily solved by preventing those voters from capturing the machinery of government for unconstitutional purposes - unwarranted regulation, wealth transfer and social engineering.
" the problem is easily solved by preventing those voters from capturing the machinery of government for unconstitutional purposes"
Laugh about it shout about it
When you've got the choose
Every way you look at it you lose
That problem was solved long ago with the evolution of the uniparty. The machinery of government was captured by the oligarchy, aka the deep state, who don't give a damn about American society, and are quite happy with unwarranted regulation, wealth transfer and social engineering. Restricting the voter franchise is not going to change any of that.
The uniparty?
"unwarranted regulation, wealth transfer and social engineering"
Yet the Trump Administration (both times) De-Regulated, Didn't introduce wealth transfer (so long as the Tariff BS checks don't go through) and definitely CUT the 'social engineering'.
There is more the the ONE ?uniparty? of [D]emon-craps in the USA.
"De-Regulated, "
That's Orwellian Newspeak. They re-regulated. They re-wrote the regulations to replace the old regulations that favored one group of the donor class with new regulations to benefit a new bunch of backers. It's a shame that such an otherwise astute analyst as yourself have fallen for such obvious verbal trickery.
Got anything more then baseless accusations to go with that crap-sandwich?
You want some child porn? Just check out your Epstein files. You're spoilt for choice.
Athens never dominated anything. A better thing to examine would be Hellenistic societies after Alexander.
Rome had a tiny bureaucracy and almost no regulation. Just don't even think of revolting and pay your taxes. Outside of Italy it wasn't a bureaucratic state it was a military dictatorship. Venal corrupt rulers used all that power to enrich themselves and to destroy political opponents.
Both the Abbasid Caliphate and Song China were destroyed by the Mongols. Iraq has never recovered from the destruction of its infrastructure at their hands. China did, but then went China First at the beginning of the 15th century. It literally built a wall much more impressive than Trump's and it didn't prevent the Manchu conquest. China has yet to recover from its bad decisions of the 1420s.
Renaissance Italy was a corrupt licentious mess. The Church was every bit as bad as the ruling princes -- and often Popes were themselves ruling princes. The father of the notorious Lucretia Borgia was a pope!
"Double down on the institutions of liberal democracy, free markets, and unleash new waves of innovation and of progress. There is still time. We can still save this golden age."
Despite the imperfect historical parallels, this is still correct. Trump tried to destroy democracy on January 6, 2021, and his gerrymandering efforts might still accomplish that. We all know he hates free markets. He wants to protect sectors of the economy that can't compete. And he is destroying the single greatest source for innovation ever -- America's scientific research infrastructure.
A list of leftard Self-Projecting their own doings.
Wait; How did Biden win the primaries again?
Who regulated the sh*t our of energy? Who is undoing it?
Who is literally lobbying for the END of free-markets for socialism?
And he is destroying the single greatest source for innovation ever -- America's scientific research infrastructure.
Save the Wuhan Lab!
charliehall says, "If Trump is wrong and just as bad as mmmmbl-mumblllll then I, charliehall, must be right!" In fact, charliehall, Trump and ALL kinds of socialists - both nazional and demogogic - are wrong, and only securely limited government will allow for preservation of and extension of the "golden age." On the other hand the current level of prosperity is in no way a "golden age" in the first place. We are currently coasting on previous gains, and once the deterioration finally sets in it will be very difficult to turn around.
^THIS ... "Gov - 'Gun' Identity battles over the last twinkie."
The consequences of socialism is as predictable as the sun rising.
Well Said - CUTTING the 'socialism' and restoring the US Constitution that *LIMITS* the government/programs *is* the only save for the USA.
All we have to do is maximize individual negative liberty.
Persia didn't collapse. It just morphed into Iran.
And now Iran is collapsing.
Stoss, the US' golden age ended 20 years ago.
Trump is a hail Mary attempt to try to stop the decline.
Or an attempt to accelerate the decline. The scary part is we can;t tell the difference.