The 'Threat' That Supposedly Justified Killing 2 Boat Attack Survivors Was Entirely Speculative
The commander who ordered a second missile strike worried that the helpless men he killed might be able to salvage cocaine from the smoldering wreck.
On Thursday, Adm. Frank M. Bradley, commander of the newly controversial September 2 operation that inaugurated President Donald Trump's deadly military campaign against suspected drug boats in the Caribbean and the eastern Pacific, briefed members of Congress about his justification for ordering a second missile strike that killed two men who survived the initial attack. Hours later, the U.S. Southern Command announced yet another boat attack, raising the total to 22 and the death toll to 87.
The confluence of those two developments highlights the risk that the debate about Bradley's second strike will obscure the broader issue of whether Trump's reality-defying assertion of an "armed conflict" with drug smugglers, which supposedly turns criminal suspects into "combatants," is enough to transform murder into self-defense. While the renewed congressional interest in the legal and moral justification for Trump's bloodthirsty anti-drug strategy is welcome, that inquiry should not be limited to the question of whether one particular attack violated the law of war.
The details of Bradley's defense nevertheless illustrate the outrageous implications of conflating drug smuggling with violent aggression. He argues that the seemingly helpless men in the water, who were blown apart by a second missile while clinging to the boat's smoldering wreckage, still posed a threat because they could have recovered and delivered whatever cocaine might have remained after the first strike.
Prior to Thursday's closed-door briefings, The New York Times reported that Bradley was expected to support that argument by citing radio communications between the survivors and other members of their organization. In deciding to order the second strike, The Wall Street Journal said, Bradley "considered that other 'enemy' vessels were nearby and that the survivors were believed to be communicating via radio with others in the drug-smuggling network." He "concluded the two survivors were attempting to continue their drug run, making them and the already-damaged vessel legitimate targets for another attack."
That concern, it turns out, was entirely speculative. During the briefings, lawmakers watched a video that, unlike the snippet that the Defense Department had released to the public, showed both the first and second missile strikes. Judging from the accounts of people who watched that video, it does not support the improbable claim that "the two survivors were attempting to continue their drug run."
The first strike "destroyed most of the boat," The New York Times reports. "When the smoke finally cleared about 30 minutes later, the front portion of the boat was overturned but still afloat, according to lawmakers and congressional staff who viewed the video or were briefed on it. Two survivors, shirtless, clung to the hull, tried unsuccessfully to flip it back over, then climbed on it and slipped off into the water, over and over."
During the briefings, "military officials" reportedly "told lawmakers they assumed the hull might be afloat because it still contained packs of cocaine," the Times says. "They thought that the survivors might eventually have managed to float back to Venezuela, allowing them to try again to deliver that cocaine, or that another boat could come retrieve it. They assumed the survivors could be communicating." But "the video did not show any radios or satellite phones," and "a surveillance plane apparently did not spot any nearby boat."
Bradley, in short, did a lot of assuming and supposing, then decided the hypothetical risk that possibly remaining cocaine might eventually make its way to American noses was enough to justify the cold-blooded murder of two defenseless men who were desperately trying not to drown. That explanation was good enough for Sen. Tom Cotton (R–Ark.), who pronounced the attack "righteous" and "highly lawful." As Cotton saw it, the men whose deaths Bradley ordered were not struggling for their lives; they were "trying to flip a boat loaded with drugs bound for [the] United States back over so they could stay in the fight."
In reality, there was no "fight" to stay in. The violence exemplified by this attack is so one-sided that the government's lawyers claim blowing up drug boats does not constitute "hostilities" under the War Powers Resolution because U.S. personnel face no plausible risk of casualties. So we are talking about an "armed conflict" that does not involve "hostilities" yet somehow does involve enemy "combatants"—who, contrary to that label, are not actually engaged in combat.
Cotton's counterintuitive characterization aims to support Bradley's argument that the men he obliterated were not truly "shipwrecked," which would mean he and his underlings committed a war crime by killing them. According to the Defense Department's Law of War Manual, "orders to fire upon the shipwrecked would be clearly illegal." The manual says individuals are deemed "shipwrecked" when they are "in distress at sea," "helpless," and "in need of care and assistance," provided they "refrain from any hostile act."
Bradley seems to have determined that the flailing men were engaged in a "hostile act" simply by existing near a boat remnant that might have contained salvageable cocaine. As ridiculous as that position is, it is only a bit more risible than Trump's assertion that supplying cocaine to Americans amounts to "an armed attack against the United States" that justifies a lethal military response.
Since Bradley's reasoning is consistent with that preposterous premise, it is not surprising that Trump, who initially said he "wouldn't have wanted" a "second strike," now agrees it was just as "fine" as the first one. Nor is it surprising that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, who like the president revels in dealing death to suspected cocaine smugglers without legal authorization or any semblance of due process, thinks Bradley "made the correct decision to ultimately sink the boat and eliminate the threat."
The congressional investigation was prompted by The Washington Post's recent report that Bradley ordered the second strike based on his understanding that Hegseth wanted him to "kill everybody" on the boat. Hegseth denied giving any such instruction, and Bradley reportedly confirmed to lawmakers that Hegseth had not said anything to that effect.
That point is legally relevant because such an order arguably would have violated the law-of-war rule against "declar[ing] that no quarter will be given" or "conduct[ing] hostilities on the basis that there shall be no survivors." But the logic of Trump's policy and Hegseth's implementation of it, which portrays suspected drug smugglers as "combatants" who can be killed at will and their vessels as threats than can be eliminated only by complete destruction, effectively blesses what the law of war theoretically forbids, as this attack vividly shows.
"There is a risk that the focus on the second strike and specifically the talk of 'war crimes' feeds into the administration's false wartime framing and veils the fact that the entire boat-strikes campaign is murder, full stop," Cardozo School of Law professor Rebecca Ingber, an expert on the law of war, told The New York Times. "The administration's evolving justification for the second strike only lays bare the absurdity of their legal claims for the campaign as a whole—that transporting drugs is somehow the equivalent of wartime hostilities."
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Arm chair warriors know best.
Sullum has access to the best classified information from Maddow.
Add a side of morning joe and the cup is full
In this thread, Lying Jeffy equates a guy that masturbated on a 12 year old while his friend penetrated her during a gang rape to a gangster’s secretary.
No, he doesn't. He said that the person doing the penetrating should get a more harsh sentence.
There is no extra information that would make it legal.
Maybe not in china. But they likely also disagree.
You seem confused and now it's December 5th. There are places that can help you if you are willing.
A little American girl calling Trump a “poop head” was enough to get her obliterated along with 9 of her classmates…so I’m pretty sure I heard these guys yell, “Trump is a poop head!!” after the first strike. 😉
+1 Sullum is making a solid case for why journalists shouldn't generally be allowed on any given battlefield.
Not that I think wars should be conducted in secret or under a cone of silence but, again, if the take on Kyle Rittenhouse is that he shouldn't have been there, then "They shouldn't have been accidentally transporting other people's cocaine on their fishing boat in international waters." should be an easy sell.
Excellent article by Jacob Sullum! Covers all bases and shows the inherent bloodthirstiness of conservatism.
Libertarians need to run strong candidates in the swing districts so as to siphon votes from Republicans and cause their electoral defeat, thereby stopping conservatives actual murderous bloodthirstiness.
How wonderfully myopic.
Myopic? Try prescient. We need to beware of conservative bloodthirstiness. Republicans and conservatives would just love to bring those practices here to U.S. territory. They seem to delight in the killing, many who I've heard. They'd legalize warrantless no-knock drug raids and summary executions. Why would they not, if they could get away with it? Conservatives are bloodthirsty. Forget that at your own peril.
Seek help.
Truth hurts. You seek help.
LMFAO Why not just say you are Marxist and leave it at that?
Not one single American is losing sleep over this.
the outrageous implications of conflating drug smuggling with violent aggression.
Why is that outrageous?
If I intentionally pump carbon monoxide into your house while you sleep, would you consider that violent aggression? Bear in mind that I am trying to poison/kill you with it.
Better analogy:
If I murder the guy who is selling you a bottle of bourbon, would you consider that violent aggression, particularly since I think the bourbon vendor is trying to poison you with the demon rum?
Thanks for your opinion, Captain Armchair.
That's.... not a better analogy at all.
That's just same old tired FeNtYnaL = ALcOhOL DERP trope that has been disproven a million times a million over.
It was cocaine in the boats, not fentanyl.
If you really think cocaine = poison, then it must also be true that alcohol = poison as well.
Do you think alcohol should be banned?
Also, learn to spell.
You sure there was cocaine in the boats? This guy chemjeff radical individualist says they were all fishing boats with no evidence of drugs what so ever.
Umm I don't think I said that there was no evidence of drugs whatsoever.
I think I did say that none of the claims have been proved in any sort of objective manner, such as in a court of law. All we really have is the government's word for it.
And which word is more believable, a government or a drug cartel?
A government working with a drug cartel like maduro?
A drug cartel's lies never got my country wrapped up in two decades-long occupations.
Our current government has proven beyond all doubt that their words aren't worth the breath it takes to speak them. So many proven lies have left them with no credibility whatsoever. If anybody in this administration told me the sky was blue I wouldn't believe them until I had a chance to look out the window.
Yeah, TDS will do that to imbecilic shits.
AT, the "AT" stands for conflATion. ConflATion. Pumping poison onto one's property is not the same as selling drugs to a willing buyer who knows the risks and chooses to take them.
More conflATion. Drug sellers do not want to poison their customers. It would mean less revenue from sales. Just because conservatives have evil motives murdering drug smugglers does not mean that drug smugglers have anything other than a profit-motive selling drugs to voluntary buyers who want the drugs.
The fact that you, AT, and so many conservatives, would make such an obvious conflation so as to justify summary execution - murder - is truly scary. It shows an underlying bloodthirstiness that you guys (conservatives) have. If you guys ever got unchecked power, you'd commit holocausts, so self-righteous (actually, false-righteous) you are. You're as dangerous as the Democrats or worse.
Libertarians need to run strong candidates in the swing districts so as to siphon votes from Republicans and cause their electoral defeat, thereby stopping conservatives actual murderous bloodthirstiness. The Republicans/conservatives hold all 3 branches of the fed gov is scary. If the Republicans lost control of either the House or Senate could keep their bloodthirstiness in check by congressional investigations and resolutions.
That's not the point. There's little dispute that those boats carried some type of drugs, likely cocaine. The question is whether there will be rule of law or the government, at the will of whoever is in power, murdering people who have not infringed individual rights, with no legal power to appeal.
A better question is who is more dangerous a government or a drug cartel?
I think the answer is pretty clear - government. Drug cartels are only trying to make money, not agglomerate power. They don't need to force anyone to use the drugs. Whereas, the government, and those in power, try to agglomerate power which virtually always involves initiation of force or increase in the use of force. Notice the bloodthirstiness of conservatives. If conservatives ever gained unchecked power, they could easily commit a holocaust of some sort. They are NOT to be trusted, unless they dump the bloodthirstiness. The U.S. government and the blood-lusting, power-lusting conservatives are MUCH more dangerous than the third-world drug cartels.
Not just agglomerate power but expand it as well, governments do. Cartels don't need to expand, they'll make money supplying whatever demand is there.
Also, historically, governments, left and right, have holocausted a hundred or so million people. Very, very, very,...,very few people have drug cartels killed in comparison.
Actually, no cartels have killed even a microscopic fraction of the number of people murdered by government.
Chemjeff radical prevaricator
Huh. So I'm not prevaricating, I'm explaining, but you are deflecting from the main topic which was your whole purpose here, ignore the topic and just beat up on chemjeff.
I’m old enough to remember when the topic was the opinion of anonymous ex-JAGS and you wouldn’t answer a simple question about it because it would make Sullum look bad.
“….and just beat up on chemjeff.”
Lol. Nobody beats up on chemjeff like chemjeff.
By the way, what’s so great about trains?
A court of law is the government, Lying Jeffy.
What is your point?
That a court of law is the government. Have you bumped your head or are you being intentionally obtuse?
What is your point in relation to the current conversation?
Have you had a stroke?
You sure it wasn’t a cocaine bear in the boats trunk?
Those things are dangerous.
While we’re at the bad analogies, Jeffy, do you think jacking off on a minor and then feeling bad afterwards should be banned?
Alcohol is technically poison.
And your point is?
Alcohol is technically poison. Didn’t think it was that complicated of a sentence.
What is your point in relation to the current conversation?
That you’re a lying psychopath.
Got it, so your snarky "well, alcohol is a poison too" comment was really just a hook to get me to respond so that you could have this whole conversation and then at the end call me names. Do you feel like you've accomplished an important life goal by doing this?
4D chess Lying Jeffy.
So, is Trump going to dronestrike all the brewers, distillers, winemakers and liquor stores?
Oh so there was cocaine in the boats. Thanks for finally owning up to that.
Well, this is Jeffy, the king of bad analogies. He’s the same guy who brought up bears in trunks.
Dont forget childrens books with qr codes to grindr and talking about fecal play are the same as snow white.
Someday, someone will have to put together a list of all the bad analogies Jeff has used over the years.
Someday, hopefully the fathers in Lying Jeffy’s neighborhood find out about him and act accordingly.
What do you think these fathers should do?
Use your imagination.
What fathers?
Love is love.
Officious mystical bigots were protected from murder charges during the Republican war on Beer. Freelance vigilantes took up slack, gunning dry killers down so fast by 1931 the feds quit reporting rising agent deaths. The Altruist Totalitarian motivation is the same as the dry Klan murders during Reconstruction--and ever since. Superstition and fake science are preeminent pretexts for cowardly murder of mostly unarmed citizens.
Um, Hank, the Klan was all Democrats.
Found where the fenty is going.
Murder is murder, and murder because of superstitious paranoia is still murder. Only cowardice stops these creeps from killing beer drinkers like they did from 1920 through 1933 while protected by specious immunity from prosecution. Recall those Christian National Socialist politicians and the judges they appointed as confederates did not fare well for the next five election cycles.
It's been proven never. As for fentanyl, the Drug War is the only reason it's a problem.
“As for fentanyl, the Drug War is the only reason it's a problem.”
Cite?
Wiz is right. Addicts and users prefer heroin or morphine to fentanyl. Because fentanyl does not require fields of poppies and larger opium processing plants and is more potent, it is easier to produce, conceal, transport and smuggle. If heroin and morphine were legal, there would be little fentanyl usage.
"...As for fentanyl, the Drug War is the only reason it's a problem..."
Yep, TDS-addled steaming pile of lying shit.
Fuck off and die, asswipe.
Sevo, we don't have to insult you to make our points. You seem to be quite scatological, maybe a fetish, maybe a bit of Tourette's.
We're going to answer you with rational argument.
Wiz is right. Addicts and users prefer heroin or morphine to fentanyl. Because fentanyl does not require fields of poppies and larger opium processing plants and is more potent, it is easier to produce, conceal, transport and smuggle and requiring less quantities to satisfy demand. If heroin and morphine were legal, there would be little fentanyl usage.
That’s a stupid analogy, Lying Jeffy.
Care to explain why you think it is stupid?
Does this really bear further discussion?
Do you think it was appropriate for Sullum to cite anonymous ex-JAGS, Lying Jeffy?
Right, there we go again.
You know what you have to do in order for me to answer this question.
I just wonder why jeff and Jacob are ignoring JAG was present in the room during the strikes.
But those weren’t anonymous ex-JAGS!
Alcohol is legal and regulated by the government.
A lone individual is not the military.
Your relationship with a local liquor store is not governed by different laws than other liquor stores in your area.
The man selling the booze has not smuggled it in under false pretense.
You, as the assailant, are not acting on the behalf of anyone but yourself in this scenario.
Shall I go on?
Alcohol is legal and regulated by the government.
Alcohol and cocaine are both intoxicating drugs. One is legal and the other is not based on arbitrary rules. But they are both intoxicating. Libertarians tend to think that all drugs should be legal and regulated. So blowing up a cocaine boat to "prevent poisoning Americans" is conceptually no different than blowing up an alcohol boat to "prevent poisoning Americans", regardless if those drugs are legal or not.
A lone individual is not the military.
But the entire military did not murder the sailors on the cocaine boat did. Ultimately it came down to the actions of one soldier pushing a button. Same as if one individual murdered a bourbon vendor.
Your relationship with a local liquor store is not governed by different laws than other liquor stores in your area.
Well it is, indirectly - but I fail to see how this is relevant here.
The man selling the booze has not smuggled it in under false pretense.
I think the folks actually selling the cocaine are rather open to the fact that they are selling cocaine. There is only smuggling of cocaine because it's illegal. If alcohol were illegal, it would be smuggled too.
You, as the assailant, are not acting on the behalf of anyone but yourself in this scenario.
Well, I didn't specify that in the scenario that I pointed out. Why would it matter if I were working for someone else?
Cocaine being illegal is the dumbest thing ever…in the 1970s when Americans were introduced to it people were dying from heroin and cocaine was much safer and actually fun alternative. Street opium drugs are super dangerous because dumbass drug dealers screw up the dosing. OTC opioids are perfectly safe although just like liquor or even water you can OD on it.
Yes, it is dumb. Most if not all drugs should be legal.
Street fentanyl is super dangerous…so we could probably supply every junky with safe opioids for probably a dollar a day. Instead tens of thousands of perfectly healthy young people have been poisoned to death by fentanyl because of the war on drugs which costs exponentially more than making drugs legal.
Btw, tobacco is perfectly legal and I loved smoking cigarettes but the reason I don’t take up vaping is because I don’t want to become addicted to nicotine again. So opioids have the same issues…people don’t like being addicted to things and so they will quit even when legal and easy to access.
Alcohol is legal and regulated by the government.
Alcohol and cocaine are both intoxicating drugs. One is legal and the other is not based on arbitrary rules. But they are both intoxicating. Libertarians tend to think that all drugs should be legal and regulated. So blowing up a cocaine boat to "prevent poisoning Americans" is conceptually no different than blowing up an alcohol boat to "prevent poisoning Americans", regardless if those drugs are legal or not.
You may not like the rules, but they exist. Until that changes your take is indeed 'conceptually different'. The cocaine boat is also operating illegally and directly against the rules of our country.
A lone individual is not the military.
But the entire military did not murder the sailors on the cocaine boat did. Ultimately it came down to the actions of one soldier pushing a button. Same as if one individual murdered a bourbon vendor.
On orders, as part of the military. A military soldier is quite 'conceptually different', as you say, than a lone assailant. Not the same.
Your relationship with a local liquor store is not governed by different laws than other liquor stores in your area.
Well it is, indirectly - but I fail to see how this is relevant here.
Indirectly. ha. It is relevant in that our country, and other countries operate under different laws. It is how Billy Hayes ended up in a Turkish prison for example. Crimes and punishments differ. Legal liquor stores in your area would operate under the same laws and restrictions.
The man selling the booze has not smuggled it in under false pretense.
I think the folks actually selling the cocaine are rather open to the fact that they are selling cocaine. There is only smuggling of cocaine because it's illegal. If alcohol were illegal, it would be smuggled too.
But alcohol is not illegal. End of story.
Cocaine Smugglers know what they are doing is illegal. They know there may be consequences for their actions. The man selling the booze has a legal establishment he is operating. Your assault on him is completely criminal.
You, as the assailant, are not acting on the behalf of anyone but yourself in this scenario.
Well, I didn't specify that in the scenario that I pointed out. Why would it matter if I were working for someone else?
You did, specify that actually. See your words below. Unless your assault was government sanctioned, you are just a criminal assailant and in no way comparable to a soldier following an order.
particularly since I think the bourbon vendor is trying to poison you with the demon rum?
Once again your analogy falls flat. Maybe give up.
You give up Josey. We've got you intellectually outgunned.
Doesn't matter. The law is wrong and should be changed or repealed. Until such time, rightfully, it should not be enforced, nonetheless with lethal force. Yeah, there may be consequences, but those consequences are still morally wrong.
You tried to honestly answer Lying Jeffy’s question and look where that got you?
I can hardly bear it. 🙂
One wonders how much Altruist Totalitarian's monoxide victims voluntarily pay him for his valuable deliberate murder. If mystical politicians pay him to do it, does that make it "not really" murder?
I'm still waiting to hear why it's so "outrageous."
Don’t wait too long for Hank Phillips to give a coherent answer to anything.
https://libertariantranslator.wordpress.com/who-is-hank-phillips/
I’m still waiting to hear why it’s so “mystical”.
No one is forced to do the drugs. They want the drugs. The addicts knew the drugs were addictive before taking their first dose. We don't drone strike gun manufacturers and gun shops because some people use guns to commit suicide or murder.
Excellent article by Jacob Sullum! Covers all bases and shows the inherent evil bloodthirstiness of conservatism.
Libertarians need to run strong candidates in the swing districts so as to siphon votes from Republicans and cause their electoral defeat, thereby stopping conservatives actual murderous bloodthirstiness. If conservatives get away with this type of murder, eventually they'll be bombing houses in the U.S. that they suspect hold drugs. They'd love to do it if they could get away with it, bloodthirsty bastards that conservatives are.
AT, the "AT" stands for conflATion. ConflATion. Pumping poison onto one's property is not the same as selling drugs to a willing buyer who knows the risks and chooses to take them.
More conflATion. Drug sellers do not want to poison their customers. It would mean less revenue from sales. Just because conservatives have evil motives murdering drug smugglers does not mean that drug smugglers have anything other than a profit-motive selling drugs to voluntary buyers who want the drugs.
The fact that you, AT, and so many conservatives, would make such an obvious conflation so as to justify summary execution - murder - is truly scary. It shows an underlying bloodthirstiness that you guys (conservatives) have. If you guys ever got unchecked power, you'd commit holocausts, so self-righteous (actually, false-righteous) you are. You're as dangerous as the Democrats or worse.
Libertarians need to run strong candidates in the swing districts so as to siphon votes from Republicans and cause their electoral defeat, thereby stopping conservatives actual murderous bloodthirstiness. The Republicans/conservatives hold all 3 branches of the fed gov is scary. If the Republicans lost control of either the House or Senate could keep their bloodthirstiness in check by congressional investigations and resolutions.
So long as your intended lethal dose meets Ford's prescribed dosage er concentration, you should be fine.
JS;dr
JS;dr
You didn't read it because you fear the truth and you know Sullum is right.
No one is forced to do the drugs. The drug users want the drugs. The addicts knew the drugs were addictive before taking their first dose. We don't drone strike gun manufacturers and gun shops because some people use guns to commit suicide or murder.
Excellent article by Jacob Sullum! Covers all bases and shows the inherent evil bloodthirstiness of conservatism.
Libertarians need to run strong candidates in the swing districts so as to siphon votes from Republicans and cause their electoral defeat, thereby stopping conservatives actual murderous bloodthirstiness. It's dangerous that conservatives hold all 3 branches of the fed gov. If conservatives get away with this type of murder, eventually they'll be bombing houses in the U.S. that they suspect hold drugs. They'd love to do it if they could get away with it, bloodthirsty bastards that conservatives are.
Now we are making assumptions here. Knowing much of anything at all rather amounts to ascribing superhuman powers to persons not very clever to begin with.
We know that stupid people exist, because of the "F" grade given out in scholastic centers with intent to inform. What we have only just begun to see were President Trump sentencing these students to death because they ride a boat out of Venezuela.
Jacob: absent a Time Machine, isn’t pretty much everything in life speculative? And as such, why would armed conflict be any different?
Conflict? Murderous piracy on the high seas and execution of shipwrecked witnesses is conflict? How many parties were fired on?
Were you there, Admiral Armchair?
Don't worry Hank. Libertarian spoiler votes will elect Chase in 2028. Chemical castration for all!
Libertarians at all levels need to start plotting how to cause conservative electoral defeat. When I ran for U.S. Representative as a Libertarian, I did a poll of all those registered to vote as Libertarian in my district. I asked for whom they would vote if no Libertarian was on the ballot. The results were that approx. 60% would've voted Republican, 20% Democratic, and 20% some other candidate or not vote for that office.
If Libertarians field candidates in all the swing districts, we can cause Republican electoral defeat in those districts and break their hold on Congress.
These boat strikes have exposed the bloodthirstiness of conservatism. Eventually, if they got a large enough majority to get away with it, conservatives would be self-righteously bombing civilian residences where they suspect drugs, or they'd allow the police to enter without a warrant and summarily self-righteously kill the residents if they found or suspected any trace of drugs.
Conservatives are enemies of freedom and Libertarians need to cause their electoral defeat before it's too late. Libertarians can't let Republicans retain control of all 3 branches of the fed gov. It's WAY too dangerous considering how bloodthirsty social conservatives are.
lmfao, now they were shipwrecked witnesses.
Remember when the people in the comments went crazy when Obama did extrajudicial drone killings in the middle east?
Everyone who changes their mind because of the letter in front of the President are hacks, plain and simple.
Pretty sure their contention was Obama was killing citizens.
Trump killed a little American girl in a military operation.
Reason correctly reported both collective executions as murder.
Was the focus of it on US citizens subject to protections or terrorists? Weddings or drug boats?
I dont remember a lot of outrage against actual terrorist soldiers engaged in terrorist acts.
JizzeAzz, you actually didn’t like Obama’s drone strikes because you wanted young brown terrorists sent to Gitmo for Republicans to assrape.
I remember when Reason had authors that would have made a principled libertarian argument against the whole situation instead of repeating the leftist/deep state bullshit talking points in service to returning to the status quo.
Has anyone at Reason said that they were fine with the status quo prior to Trump murdering drug boats in the ocean? Did any of them defend Obama's drone strikes of wedding parties or Biden's murder of aid workers? Any of them?
What day is it Lying Jeffy?
He's not lying.
They made libertarian arguments on why it shouldn’t be done. Jacob hasn’t even bothered to throw in a line about ending the war on drugs or repealing the law that allows the Executive branch to unilaterally designate groups as terrorist.
What leftist/deep state bullshit? Like the deep state would have any problem with the State murdering people over drugs? The drug boat murders are perfectly in accord with the deep state.
I'm fine with attacking the drone bombings themselves but you lose me with the tacked on lies and character attacks. If I thought I was being honestly informed I'd accept the perspective even if I disagreed, BUT it's Sullum so assuming it's a pack of lies is likely correct.
Remember, this reporting thread started as "I heard a rumor" without corroboration and he's been working to justify that take ever since.
How shallow. You don't like what Team Trump is doing, but you are turned away by the mean words said about them.
Why should Team Trump get the kid gloves treatment? Calling them murderers and accusing them of war crimes may or may not be legally or technically accurate, but it is also par for the course for any politician in a similar position.
You all just can't stand that Team Trump is being held to something like a realistic politician standard, instead of the ridiculous MAGA standard of "Trump is never wrong".
Reason has been pretty consistent on the droning program. The rest of the media and Congress, not so much. So to me, it’s not that his admin is being held to a standard, it’s that they’re being held to a standard that nobody else has been held to by the vast majority of the people crying foul.
lies and character attacks
There's no dispute that Trump had the military attack unarmed drug boats and kill the people in them. There's no "character attacks". Trump and the social conservatives have exposed their own bloodthirstiness for all to see.
Eventually, if they got a large enough majority to get away with it, conservatives would be self-righteously bombing civilian residences where they suspect drugs, or they'd allow the police to enter without a warrant and summarily self-righteously kill the residents if they found or suspected any trace of drugs.
Conservatives are enemies of freedom and Libertarians need to run candidates against them in all the swing districts so as to cause their electoral defeat before it's too late. Libertarians can't let Republicans retain control of all 3 branches of the fed gov. It's WAY too dangerous considering how bloodthirsty social conservatives are.
Remember when this magazine watched Kyle Rittenhouse retreat until cornered and then defend himself from attackers on 3rd party video and their assessment was "He shouldn't have been there."?
Letters after names are, like, abstract social constructs man.
On 22MAR1929, when Herbert Hoover was Republican President and Harry Anslinger a narc and apologist for initiation of deadly force to curb narcotics like light beer, watery wine, ethanol, opiates and a non-addictive stimulant called cocaine, coast Guards fired on and sank the schooner I'm Alone. There followed 6 years of litigation before Canada was awarded damages. Premeditated murder has now justifiably angered Venezuelans. Remember than when the unequal yet apposite reprisal force comes around.
Have an actual cite and link for that, Hank?
lol, non addictive cocaine
Cocaine is not as addictive as meth or heroin. Regardless, no one was forced to use cocaine or any other drugs. The users knew the addictive properties before they ever used the drugs. If the drugs were legalized, the drugs would be cheap enough that the addicts could support a habit on their paychecks just as alcoholics do.
Addiction is a choice. Cocaine is an easily chosen addiction the same as cigarettes.
Heroin withdrawal as with alcohol is painful and more difficult to quit.
The choice to continue or quit is the same for all.
Meth destroys your brain quickly so even after quitting the effects are ruinous, but the choice is the same.
That is false. Addicts are not making a choice. Getting addicts off narcotics almost always requires coercion, and almost always ends in relapse.
Church ceremonies where demons must be cast out demonstrates forced labor.
Addicts are not making a choice? Oh okay someone is jabbing the needle in without their consent?
They are not getting help, that is a choice. They can get help and overcome the addiction and not doing so is a choice.
Do I need to say it in more ways for you to understand?
Yes it is very painful coming off many of those drugs, so is coming out of alcohol.
Are you saying it's not a choice to seek help too? Are you saying these drugs are so powerful that the person choosing to be on them must be kidnapped and taken in to a rehab center? Or that only certain individuals need to be forced and the rest make the choice freely?
Seems you are being very naive.
Are you saying these drugs are so powerful that the person choosing to be on them must be kidnapped and taken in to a rehab center?
Effectively, yes, but I would object to it being called "kidnapping". Most narcotics addicts who go to rehab are coerced. It's rare that they volunteer.
Seems you are being very naive.
It sounds to me like you are naïve about addiction and have not seen it first hand. Yes, addictive narcotics are so powerful that they destroy an addicts ability to exercise free choice. No one is choosing to remain a junkie.
The addicts knew the drugs were addictive before they ever used them. That was their choice. If they really thought life would be much better without the drugs and so bad being addicted, then they'd go to rehab and stay off the drugs. Maybe, they don't mind being addicted so long as they can get their drugs. That's their business, not mine, not yours, not the government's.
The addicts knew the drugs are addictive before they took their first dose. Yet, they chose to do them anyway. That was their choice.
There's plenty of free rehab. They relapse because they were probably forced into it and were unmotivated to stay straight. If they want to stay addicted, it's their business, not mine, not yours, not the government's.
If the drugs were legal, they'd be so cheap the addicts could support a drug habit on their paychecks without having to commit crimes.
Another. The more articles you need to get your point across, it is more obvious they are all bullshit.
And he still cant reach the actual revealed truths so far. Its always about one more question while he denies his previous takes were wrong. Hes coping hard.
Then again he was also the primary pusher of the Russia hoax and mar a lago raid too.
Is it still all Hegseth’s fault?
Just because Hegseth never said what was originally claimed doesnt mean he is innocent.
Ha! See QB’s comment below. It’s funny how predictable midwits are.
Mike was never that intelligent.
And he still cant reach the actual revealed truths so far. Its always about one more question while he denies his previous takes were wrong. Hes coping hard.
And this is the result of abandoning libertarian principle.
Again, split the baby and have the grandkids too. They want it to be illegal to blow up drug runners in international waters but legal blow up NS1 and 2 and drone strike Russians off the battlefield using civilian infrastructure and launch rockets from Gaza that just happen to fall on your own hospital/arms depot.
I mean if we can kill them then that should mean we can assrape them before we kill them, right?
Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-Illinois)
You go ahead, Sammy. Assrape seems to be important to you.
Excellent article by Jacob Sullum! Covers all bases and shows the inherent evil bloodthirstiness of conservatism.
Libertarians need to run strong candidates in the swing districts so as to siphon votes from Republicans and cause their electoral defeat, thereby stopping conservatives actual murderous bloodthirstiness. It's dangerous that conservatives hold all 3 branches of the fed gov. If conservatives get away with this type of murder, eventually they'll be bombing houses in the U.S. that they suspect hold drugs. They'd love to do it if they could get away with it, bloodthirsty bastards that conservatives are.
Given how much drugs we've run through other countries (including to ourselves) do we really have a moral leg to stand on ?
Also, don't you have to be armed to be an armed combatant?
Also, also, did anyone ever answer Rand Paul's question of how are they a threat to us when they can't reach us in a speedboat with that limited range of fuel ?
No, you don't have to be armed to be a lawful combatant. Supply corps are legitimate targets, even shooting supply clerks moving supplies in unarmed trucks.
Even third party contractors moving supplies in unarmed convoys can and are legal targets.
To be a combatant there has to be an actual armed military conflict in which to be a combatant. Drug smuggling is not combat. To try to call it such is evidence of the fundamental dishonesty of conservatism.
Conservatives are enemies of freedom and Libertarians need to run candidates against them in all the swing districts so as to cause their electoral defeat before it's too late. Libertarians can't let Republicans retain control of all 3 branches of the fed gov. It's WAY too dangerous considering how bloodthirsty social conservatives are.
No there doesn't. Countries can declare blockades short of open war.
Especially at sea.
I mean, there is a long history of commerce raiding in maritime warfare. Even unto attacking and sinking merchants without warning.
But, it's still not war and the drug smugglers are still not combatants.
We under a chemical weapons attack by hostile foreign powers. The drug smugglers are irregular combatants.
No, we're not, and you know it. No one is forced to use the drugs. The addicts knew the drugs were addictive before ever using them. The smugglers are not combatants.
Also, they can reach us.
From DuckDuckGo Search Assist:
The range of a Cigarette boat can vary significantly depending on the model and its fuel capacity. For example, the Cigarette 59 Tirranna has a fuel capacity of 1,000 gallons and claims a range of 780 miles at a cruising speed of 43 knots.
Venezuela is 1,000 miles from the continental U.S. at the closest point, except Puerto Rico. If any of those boats were actually headed to the U.S. or Puerto Rico, the U.S. would have taken them out near the U.S. or Puerto Rico to show that they were actually headed there.
I'm certain fuel is available at various points along the way.
That's also fuel capacity *of the boat* - nothing is stopping them from carrying additional fuel that can be transferred into the boat's tanks.
It would require a lot of fuel, and diminish the amount of drugs. Also, when the boats were struck with high-explosive rounds, it would have caused bigger, longer lasting fireballs if the boats were carrying a lot of fuel, rather than the quicker flash that we've seen on the videos of the incidents.
Then why didn't they take out the refueling vessel, also? It would've struck an additional blow and helped prove that the drugs were specifically headed to the U.S.
Why should we wait and risk losing track of the boat in the other traffic? That would endanger other shipping.
It's the United States Navy. There's little risk they'll lose track of any boat they track. And, there's zero chance they'd hit some other boat, since the boats can be struck at a distance from other boats.
Thank you for your expert opinions, Admiral.
You're quite welcome.
Are you trying to say america did it first? Sarc would agree!
The problem I am having with libertarianism is that places like Reason make it seem like it's an 18/19th century political philosophy.
They refuse to accept that technology and population growth changes conditions and that what could be done in 1925 doesn't necessarily work in 2025 when you can be on the other side of the world in 24 hours.
Yes, just look at the people here who complain there's been no Declaration of War, as if we still fought wars with sailing ships and black powder.
Government power, especially the power to commit aggressive actions including war, needs to be severely restricted.
The ability to defend ourselves against aggression quickly must NOT be severely restricted.
If it was actually aggression, yes. But smuggling is not aggression, no matter how much social conservatives try to label it as such.
It absolutely is aggression. Hundreds of thousands have died.
How do we know they were not already dying when their desperation led them to substances that only Trump can use wisely?
Remember the cocaine found in the White House during its recent remodeling?
White House cartel. And there could be rival dealers out there who could steal votes from the President next election.
OK. But consider this - when war and peace are not binary states, when you can strike at a target on the other side of the world in less than a day, the ability to respond quickly is necessary *today*.
A hundred years ago you had time to bring the issue to a committee. Today you generally do not.
If we were striking an actual aggressive military or actual terrorist target, I would agree with you. But, the drug boats were known or suspected to be drug smuggling, not committing military or terrorist aggression, regardless of whether the Trump administration tries to label it as such.
If we were striking an actual aggressive military or actual terrorist target, I would agree with you.
But we are. You are just too uninformed or too blinded by ideology to see that.
They don't understand anything past the intro to an ideal state libertarianism.... unless they have to consider how to help democrats. They will only alter their demand for idealism thst doesnt work if it can be merged with some form of liberalism.
FOIA is good.. except doge and elections
End ACA... but also replace it with the same thing
Freedom of speech... unless dems are hectoring private companies or you post a meme
Empty the prisons.... except for J6 or his lawyers
4th amendment!!!... except for GOP congressmen
And on and on.
We defend the 2A and abstract social constructs are oppression... until Kyle Rittenhouse has to defend himself 20 min. from his house, then he shouldn't have been there.
One thoughtless sentence ruptures ever libertarian organ in their body. They don't want freedom. They want to be free of *people* they don't like.
What’s weird is Rottenhouse having guns in his social media feed makes him a patriotic American…and he’s also on video punching a girl. But Trayvon Martin having guns on social media makes him a thug. I wonder what’s the difference??
It is an 18th/19th century philosophy. Actually older, it is based on natural rights and the work of people like Locke and Hobbes. It is explicitly what the American Revolution was founded on. If you don't think America should be based on these principles anymore, what principles do you have in mind instead?
Daily, you show the limitations of following principles blindly with your retarded ANALogies.
Military and police and surveillance and killing technologies have improved much since then. The murderousness of government has been proved time and again since then. All the more reason to strictly limit the powers of government. Don't think the conservatives and liberals wouldn't holocaust their disfavored groups if they had the opportunity.
You're assuming that only our government is the one with those powers.
You are ignoring that other governments *and other private actors* have and are using those same capabilities. You want to tie the hands of the US government while letting everyone else run wild?
I'm more afraid of us doing stuff to ourselves than I am of foreigners doing stuff to us, whether government or private actors. If there was an actual legitimate foreign threat, I have full confidence that the people would unite against it without the government having to have excessive powers. No one will be "running wild". Stop scaring yourself.
The upside is that Latin American voters now see confirmed what they witnessed in 1990. The same way Germany's Christian National Socialists gleefully kidnapped and murdered innocent Jews, Americans of identical persuasion do the exact same thing--screaming "drug" instead of "Jew." As in Germany, they hide behind bureaucrats, judicial appointees, propaganda ministers, perjuring physicians, officeholders and scientist impersonators. Because of same this sort of historical rhyming the Libertarian Party was organized during Nixon's second term.
Get away from the crack pipe, now I know why you are so upset cocaine is getting blown up at sea. Less for you to cook and blow up your nose?
Libertarians at all levels need to start plotting how to cause conservative electoral defeat.
These boat strikes have exposed the bloodthirstiness of conservatism. Eventually, if they got a large enough majority to get away with it, conservatives would be self-righteously bombing civilian residences where they suspect drugs, or they'd allow the police to enter without a warrant and summarily self-righteously kill the residents if they found or suspected any trace of drugs.
Conservatives are enemies of freedom and Libertarians need to cause their electoral defeat before it's too late. Libertarians can't let Republicans retain control of all 3 branches of the fed gov. It's WAY too dangerous considering conservative bloodthirstiness.
Through the looking glass...
First, it appears in the looking glass. Then, it gets closer and bigger until there's a tsunami of Libertarian candidates drawing votes away from, and causing the electoral defeat of, Republicans who refuse to reform their bloodthirsty tendencies.
If conservatives and Republicans were to back off on pushing drug prohibition and prosecuting for drugs, then Libertarians could work with them. But, as long as Republicans keep pushing drug prosecution, Libertarians should run candidates against them to cause Republican electoral defeat.
Almost lucid Hank. But sadly the Libertarian party has done nothing but make an ass of itself since Nixon's 2nd term.
Today is the 5th.
Jacob also wrote about this story on the 4th...
...and the 3rd...
...and the 2nd...
...and the 1st.
And has refused to admit any article where he jumped to an argument has been disproven.
Being a progressive means you never have to say you were wrong.
Progress allows for the biggest blinders. Progressives plug there ears and yell, I can't see nor hear anything that will stop me now...
Doing twenty long years for some dust in a baggie.
Glad the USA military is out there showing how lucky we have it here in America, our government is so merciful. Drug warriors leading the way for another neocon nation building project.
We can destroy the supply chain or bury/imprison Americans.
Choose.
Better choice would be to legtimize the supply chain by legalizing drugs. But it would be odd to see an actual libertarian position here at Reeeeason.
I have mulled this over for years and still have not concluded that complete legalization is the best decision.
However, recently my 26 year old nephew OD'd and passed away. He took ecstasy with his girlfriend.
I am yet to confirm the toxicology report of what was in his system to know if it was only ecstasy or if he had fentanyl or something else in his system when his brain shut down. Family issues and egos in the way for now.
But I have to think that if he took something that was controlled and legally distributed that he'd still be alive.
We all have the right to our own oblivion I believe is Libertarian thinking but it is very selfish.
Friend of mine’s son in law OD’d this year from fentanyl. Pretty sure he was not intentionally taking it.
If accurately-dosed heroin or morphine was legally available at a pharmacy, maybe he'd still be alive.
Even in states with legal Marijuana, there is still illegal Marijuana. Drug addicts tend to not be very rational. If they want to kill themselves fine. But hold them accountable for assaults, thefts, etc. Instead of making excuses for their addictions.
Honestly sorry to hear about your nephew. I did some crazy shit at that age. But for the grace of God.... Shit happens.
Agreed. I was and I think most end up in circumstances where the choice is life changing. Most also choose life.
The question is if it was thought it was ecstasy but ended up with fentanyl that killed him. Not saying ecstasy won't kill because it can and it eats the brain like Meth.
Jessie says, if they want to kill themselves fine, but that is a tough pill for everyone else to swallow.
I believe legalized marijuana would reduce the mount of hard drug deaths and curb violence and crime. It has in Canada, except where hard drugs have been decriminalized or promoted through providing the paraphernalia.
Oregon proved decimalization is a failed policy. If libertarians are reasonable they should change the thinking toward the harder drugs.
Decriminalization, i.e. non-enforcement is not the same as legalization. Under decriminalization, the drugs are still sold in a black-market, just drug laws are not enforced. Under legalization, the drugs would be available accurately dosed at pharmacies without a prescription or a with a "shall-issue" prescription.
Full legalization does not work due to not holding users accountable to their other violations and weakening self defense.
Nobody is accountable for anything this day and age. That is why innocent young girls get stabbed and set on fire by asshats with 40+ priors.
I am okay with holding everyone responsible for their own actions. But it has to be uniform, not just for drugs. Otherwise, the accountability looks more like scapegoating.
If you were to claim "drug addicts should be held responsible for all of the harm that they cause others", then I absolutely agree. But it has to also include not just drug addicts, but also "gun owners", "car drivers", etc.
Even migrants who jack off on rape victims? Because I remember yiu calling foul on holding that guy accountable.
Then your recollection is incorrect.
Jesse's got your number just below, Lying Jeffy.
All he does is lie. He wouldn’t even answer what day it is. Because I don’t think he can.
https://reason.com/2024/06/24/byo-a-c/?comments=true#comment-10615352
https://reason.com/2024/06/25/americas-mayors-say-the-heartland-needs-immigrants/?comments=true#comment-10616918
I don't think the guy who jacked off on a rape victim should be treated exactly the same as the guy who forcibly penetrated a rape victim. But they should both be held accountable. Glad I could clear that up for you.
They both participated in a violent gang rape and should face the same consequences. That you equivocate about this shows the depth of your perversion.
Jeff thinks coughing on someone during covid is a felony. He doesnt ever think jizzing on someone is a crime.
Jeffs principles.
Should a Mafia boss's secretary "face the same consequences" as the Mafia boss himself? Of course not. Even though both "participated" in the Mafia boss's crimes.
Each individual who commits a crime should be held accountable according to a just standard of individual treatment. In a rape, the person who forcibly penetrates should be treated more harshly than the person who did not forcibly penetrate.
If you disagree, then please explain specifically why.
You think the guy that jerks off on a gang rape victim is the same as a secretary? God damn you’re a sick fuck.
Please explain specifically why you are not a sick fuck for equating secretarial work with child gang rape.
The question is should the guy doing the penetrating get a harsher sentence than someone who did not. I say yes. They should both get a sentence that fits the crime.
You’re a sick fuck Lying Jeffy.
What specifically do you mean?
Well you just equated a guy that jerked off on a gang rape victim (a 12 year old, for the record) to a fucking secretary.
Gun owners and car drivers ARE held responsible for their actions when they cause harm. What the actual fuck?
So are drug users.
I thought those states just “decriminalized” possession. And then decided to tax the ever living shit out of it.
Neither of those things would bear any good results, almost like the Democrats who did it didn’t really want to give up control over the little people (or they wanted it to fail).
That's not true. Under legalization, all other laws will continue to be enforced. People will still have the right of self-defense without it being weakened. Maybe you mean self-control. If they commit an infringement of individual rights, they can still be prosecuted for it.
So let's compromise. We can legalize drugs but anyone too addicted to drugs to work does not qualify for any government assistance. No SNAP, welfare, rental assistance etcetera. If they want the right to do drugs they can accept the potential consequences and responsibilities of doing so.
Fair enough. Libertarians are for ending those programs, anyway.
We've gone the 'legalize' route - and see how well its not working.
Have we actually gone the legalization route? Last I checked, drugs were still illegal.
Check Portland.
False choice. We've tried to destroy the supply chain for a century now and lock up citizens.
We've tried to destroy the supply chain for a century now
No, we haven't.
Keep doing the regime’s work Sullum.
Why do you think Sullum is "doing the regime's work"?
Do you think he should have cited anonymous ex-JAGS?
You know what you have to do in order for me to answer your question.
Now, why do you think Sullum is "doing the regime's work"?
One reason is because he just cited the Former JAGs Working Group.
If we blew up a tiny ship with 4 Isis members, I’m guessing the primary purpose was to KILL them, not just destroy the content of the boat. If they survive the strike, we have to spare them? Then what was the purpose of hitting them at all?
They’re terrorists, not uniformed soldiers fighting under a flag and observing rules of war. We’ve blown them up with no due process for years, including half dead people who possibly couldn’t fight back. You’re telling me no one ever targeted pirates and terrorists stranded at sea?
Are drug dealers really terrorists on the level of Hamas? Are they armed combatants? That’s a fair question. So far congress has only seen limited footage and dems are demanding full video. The admiral who issued the second strike was being advised by attorneys. I’ll reserve judgment until we see the bigger picture.
If they survive the strike, we have to spare them?
That is normally how the laws of war work.
You have as stong an understanding of the laws of war as bears in trunks. Until they surrender, they are still the enemy and you can kill them. Does not matter if they are on land or sea. There is no, you get one shot at that is it rule.
There was a previous article about this very thing. They don't have the opportunity to surrender because there is no one else around. Their boat is very clearly disabled, it wasn't even a warship in the first place, and the two survivors made no aggressive moves against anyone, they were just hanging on the wreckage. They were very clearly "out of the fight". So yes it is wrong to then murder them later.
Have you read the Geneva Convention? There's literally a part about not firing on shipwrecked people. It's even a part the US has ratified. You can argue that the rules are dumb, but ratified treaties are part of US law.
Once they are shipwrecked and helpless, the proper thing to do is to take them prisoner. If they continue to be hostile while we try to do that then they become valid targets again (assuming they were valid targets in the first place, which I doubt is the case here.)
Um, we've blown up terrorists who gathered for a meeting. Whether they were armed or ready to fight is entirely irrelevant. If they gathered to plan a birthday party, we would still blow them up.
We don't charge terrorists abroad first and then blow them up after a court ruling. When has that ever happened? You think we only drone AQ fighters when they're actually shooting at us? We don't target any surviving members who are running away?
They're not uniformed soldiers. They're terrorists.
It's pretty obvious that they are not. Drug dealers deal drugs. They have nothing to gain by killing their customers. They engage in violence because disputes cannot be resolved in a court of law, like they would be if drugs were legal.
If you think it's cool that a nation's military is using extra judicial murder to stop the movement of cocaine, there is 0 chance you are a libertarian.
Everyone from top to bottom involved in this policy should be in prison. Trump, Hegseth, Bradley all the way down to the guy that pushed the fire missile button are criminal murderers.
Especially Hegseth, because Sullum told me he said to KILL THEM ALL!
You get used to Mike always being wrong and defending the lefts narratives.
You consider opposition to using armed forces for law enforcement or extra judicial murder as a deterrent for drug trafficking to be leftist?
Yeah, then, get used to it.
And I'm human, so I'm wrong sometimes. The unusual part about me is that I also occasionally admit when I'm wrong. You should try it someday.
I accept your "especially Hegseth" even though it seems unlikely he said that. And all this "double tap" crap misses the point, although it did seem to blow the story wide open...double pun intended...I guess I miss Chumby.
Funny how Chumby left not long after I put him on perma-mute. I think there might be a connection there.
What?! You were willing to miss all those SQRLSY sodomy posts?
That’s some funny shit right there.
You flatter yourself too much.
The psychopath is now experiencing delusions of grandeur.
Arguing the policy is bad and unlibertrian is a measured and rational take. Calling everybody murderers is histrionics.
You have the same bullshit on your shoes as Sullum.
But referring to Obama's drone strikes as "murder-droning" is not histrionic? That is commonly done around here.
Frankly I am fine with calling all of it acts of murder.
Yep. Obama and his crew are murderers too.
Obama ordered the development of the Ninja Missile to reduce damage and deaths to innocent bystanders. So when Trump first used if you thought it was super awesome until you learned it resulted in the deaths of fewer innocent Muzzies. 🙁
I hope those missiles are better at hitting targets than you are.
Unlike you I don’t shoot missiles in target rich environments…and by “target rich environment” I’m referring to you jizzing in the face of the men in your weekly gang bang, dream big!!
Nardz?
What about.....
What about.....
What about.....
What about.....
Its is ok, I hear Obama felt bad about it after.
It wasn't okay for Obama either. But literally no one here claimed referring to Obama's drone strikes as "murder-droning" to be "histrionics". What Trump is doing is at least equally as bad as what Obama did.
No, because 9/11 happened. Now the fentanyl crisis which got much worse in 2020 is actually much worse than 9/11…unfortunately these strikes have nothing to do with fentanyl.
No one is forced to use fentanyl.
But once someone is addicted, it ceases to be choice.
Lol. But Obama never said he was sorry. So Grey area.
Obama is sorry he killed your potential assrape victims. 🙁
Histrionics? If anyone not working for the government did this, it would be murder. Holding government agents to the same standard as the civilians they're supposed to serve doesn't seem like histrionics to me.
It brings up a good question. If you actually murder somebody in international waters, who has jurisdiction?
I'm not sure, but I do know from Dateline type shows about cruise murders that it is still illegal and prosecuted.
That happens on a flagged ship and would be subject to that nations laws.
That makes sense. IDK about private boats. I think I'll look in to it as an interesting question
Well some Googling tells me it's complicated. Usually responsibility is to the jurisdiction where the boat is registered (or should be registered if unregistered). The victims' or perpetrators' nation may also investigate and take jurisdiction.
Seems pretty messy.
“I do know from Dateline type shows”
Lmao.
Meh, You get used to these manifestations of RMac's unmerited superiority complex.
I'm actually sympathetic to that point of view. I'm not a fan of the war on drugs and I'm not happy to see Trump go down this road. The problem I have with this story is that it seems to have been created to provide cover for Democrats claiming that the Trump administration is demanding that the military engage in illegal actions and that they should respond with some kind of coup against civilian authority. We can claim that killing drug dealers is immoral and violates the NAP. But on the scale of historic government violations this wouldn't rate a 2 on a ten point scale. We fire bombed Tokyo for fuck sake. We've just entered pure propaganda on this story.
The problem I have with this story is that it seems to have been created to provide cover for Democrats
That pretty much sums up the "MAGA Libertarians" around here - they like liberty, but only if it doesn't help Democrats.
claiming that the Trump administration is demanding that the military engage in illegal actions and that they should respond with some kind of coup against civilian authority.
Those six Democrats themselves even could not name an illegal order. And nobody has said anything about a military coup. This is just pure projection and hate.
Democrats claiming that the Trump administration is demanding that the military engage in illegal actions and that they should respond with some kind of coup against civilian authority.
And dodge all lack of authority, *BOAF SIDEZ*, since the Bush Administration.
Because, again, they don't actually care about due process or declarations of war, or the War Powers Act. They want to go back to funding Ukraine. This was obvious for, even as much as I similarly don't want to say it, Rand Paul's resolution to prevent Trump from attacking Iran... and only Iran... in his first term. Even if Rand wasn't explicitly complicit and his aim was a more grandiose reining in of federal war making, the only way he could get traction is if it only applied to this President in that country.
How does Trump sending congressionally authorized lethal aid to Ukraine violate the WPA??
Lmao.
The problem I have with this story is that it seems to have been created to provide cover for Democrats claiming that the Trump administration is demanding that the military engage in illegal actions and that they should respond with some kind of coup against civilian authority.
You're right. I could see a hypothetical president Hillary enact ing such a policy and R's and D's would switch sides with and argue with unchanged ferver. And your 2 out of 10 violation rating historically seems fair.
The whole double-tap concern while letting the overall policy go relatively unchallenged reveals the political nature of the current outrage.
Still, I'll go with the political winds when they blow my way and tack against them when they don't.
They've been designated terrorists by the government. Trump isn't blowing up random drug dealers out of phillipines. You're telling we never targeted Taliban poppy operations?
This is wild. The number of ISIS or Al Qaeda operatives Bush or Obama blew up as they were just walking somewhere or just attending a wedding must be in the hundreds. It doesn't matter whether they were armed, in fighting conditions, engaged in combat etc. We've killed them. If we have intel that senior members are having a meeting with in a building, that building is gone. It doesn't matter that they weren't shooting at the moment. They're not uniformed soldiers, lawful combatants.
If you think designating drug operations as terrorist is a overkill, you might have a point. But given that drug money almost certainly funds terrorism, it's not such a stretch.
We have long targeted other drug runners, but not with extrajudicial killings. We burned crops etc. and I opposed that too.
Yes, some drug money funds terrorism, but what's the evidence that is the case for these boats? Drug running is for profit. It finds its way to cartels and terrorists only because it's illegal.
When someone says terrorist, I think middle east muslims. Little to no terrorism comes from South/central America unless you count drugs/cartels which until recently were not considered terrorist because their MO is making money, not political change.
I have no argument that what we did in the middle east wars especially, extrajudicial incarceration, torture and drone killings, was as bad as this. I'd say, in total, it was worse. And I had similar arguments with those in favor.
Again, this is wild. You think only muslims can be designated as terrorists by the government? If some lily white libs blew up steakhouses to punish meat eaters, that wouldn't be terrorism?
Those narco runners from Venezuela have been designated as terrorists. For all intents and purposes, they're no different than Hamas, Al Qaida or ISIS. Both the US government and IDF blew up senior leadership in buildings minding their own business and not engaged in any combat at the moment. If one of them survived and tried to escape on foot, we'd blow him up again.
The war on terror is by definition extrajudicial killing. We took out Bin Laden in total secret and didn't alert Pakistan. We dropped bombs on all kinds of terrorists in sovereign nations not in direct combat with our troops. Assassination, preemptive strike, call it what you will.
You can make the argument that drug cartels don't meet the definition of terrorists. But we've targeted terrorists and pirate abroad since the days of Madison. We never gave due process to unlawful combatants before droning them.
I'm didn't mean to imply only Muslims can be terrorists. Just that's the trend.
Those narco runners from Venezuela have been designated as terrorists.
So? There's nothing stopping the president from naming any convenient political target terrorists.
For all intents and purposes, they're no different than Hamas, Al Qaida or ISIS.
THIS is wild. Nothing has changed in South/Central America since the 60's, but all of a sudden in 2025...poof... terrorists. The definition of terrorist, by the way: (a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims) does not fit cartels.
They want money, not political change. They want to sell us drugs, not kill us. It is harder to justify killing somone engaged in unapproved business than those that trying to kill us.
But still, our previous bad behavior doesn’t justify our current or future bad behavior. There's plenty wrong with the war on terror too.
Yes, they are quite obviously different. Hamas, Al Qaeda, and ISIS use acts of violence against civilians to impose their theocratic rule. Whereas, the narco runners merely transport drugs to willing buyers so as to make money.
But government has reneged on regulating trade between the states. This causes certain substances to become extremely valuable. People take ultimate risks to harvest money from addicts, and then some Big Guy from government steps in and seizes all their money as if the money shall be cremated from there on,
Without the second strike, there are exactly TWO possible outcomes.
1. They succeeded in salvaging the boat, and possibly some of the drugs.
2. The failed to salvage the boat and drowned at sea.
It is physically impossible to accept surrender of someone in the water from the aircraft used in the strike.
If my understanding of Hitler's citation of article 23(e) of The Hague Convention (below) is correct, the only viable solution to prevent them from illegally bringing drugs into the country is to use larger munitions.
Munitions intended to disable/destroy the boat and cargo that might cause unnecessary suffering to the crew are unacceptable.
They're allowed to make those decisions based on the information they're privy to.
SNL should open on Hegseth hearing a report that a thousand coke users & drug dealers take the Staten Island Ferry each day.
He then calls Trump to demand a kinetic strike on New York harbor, as there are more Narcoterrorists on Mamdani's ferries than Venezuelan go fast boats.
Well, that would be par for the course, as SNL hasn't been funny for 25+ years.
Fuck off and die, asswipe, and take your fake website with you.
You know who else...
JizzeAzz, I hereby award you with the inaugural Most Black Cocks Sucked Prize!! This is a very prestigious award that we’ve given out none times before but you have sucked thousands of Black cocks and cupped almost twice as many Black balls….some hairy and some shaved. You have made the world a better place.
This is the lowest of low effort shit posting. And you didn’t even post it under Jesse.
F-
Let me get this straight, you think that your client, one of the wealthiest, most powerful men in the world, is secretly a vigilante, who spends his nights beating criminals to a pulp with his bare hands. And your plan is to blackmail this person?
Good luck.
The horror.
the admiral should be drummed out of the Navy and prosecuted for violations of both American and international law.
“Speculative” seems like sanewashing. More like imaginary.
As the drugs that appear to cause the most problem for people were created and supplied by Big Pharma, is the solution on them to produce a safe drug that folks can take for free?
I am serious about this. People end up in the hospital injured badly and are given opioids for the pain. They leave the hospital addicted. This is where a large percentage of people fall and really by no fault of their own for being put in the position.
As addiction is a choice providing an alternative and a path to come off the pain pills is a must.
People end up in the hospital injured badly and are given opioids for the pain. They leave the hospital addicted. This is where a large percentage of people fall and really by no fault of their own for being put in the position.
That is false. Almost all addicts start out on illegally obtained drugs.
Yep, and 10,000 junkies will die a year…so that’s the baseline. And what the medical community failed to do in 2000 was begin age adjusting opioid deaths because boomers were on a bullet train to age 65 in 2011. An older population will have more people on opioids and a few more opioid deaths…and so those few more deaths plus junky deaths gave the appearance of the 1970s heroin crisis coming back when it wasn’t.
But at the same time but unrelated was fentanyl was developed and it started coming into America and fentanyl deaths gave the appearance of an opioid crisis when the issue with fentanyl is dosing and so a lot of times fentanyl OD is more poisoning than classic pail pill seeker/heroin junky ODing. Anyway, prescription opioids were never an issue—boomers aging was the issue just like lower gasoline prices means more miles driven means more traffic fatalities—OMG!! Ban gasoline!!!! The gasoline epidemic is leading to 5% more traffic fatalities!!! Let’s destroy society over 5% more deaths!?!
Fentanyl was developed by big Pharma and prescribed to patients in hospice, dying.
It went to the street cheaper than Oxy and Heroin. Then China and Cartels started lacing it into other drugs.
People dying from it completely unaware because they think they are taking something else.
Others taking it to commit suicide because of how cheap and lethal it is.
You say it is false and then say, ALMOST ALL. Which means my statement is not fucking false. Contradict yourself in the same post much?
I know two people this happened too.
One example is my life long friend was in a nasty car accident where he suffered a broken neck, T boned in an intersection by someone running the red light in the middle of the day in his work truck. After 6 months he was released from hospital.
He struggled mightily to get off the Oxy. He actually tried heroin! But eventually he became a brutal alcoholic and after around 1.5 years was able to finally be done with the opioids and prescribed Oxy and finally reduced his drinking. It took years for him to finally get sober.
So tell me again how this never happens?
Learn to fucking read. I did not say it never happens. I was disagreeing with you that those who start out on prescription narcotics make up a "large percentage" of narcotics addicts.
If they should get the death penalty for supplying some pharmacists with legally-traded cocaine, then why shouldn't pharmacists be considered combatants, despite constitutionally-compatible readings of the law?
Oh okay the drug boats are actually supplying legit pharmacists through legal trade, good one.
Do you even think the government knows whether Venezuela has pharmacies from shore to shore?
America has already solved the problem of drugs: America sells them all legally under patented names and makes extreme profits ("a killing") from stealing the work of those who trade without using America's monopoly.
Billions of dollars stolen from people who produce products for trade can preclude family after family from ever having to work again.
And so long as government approves of murder, they could buy your family by giving them free money and you could support them, because no one gets in trouble for supporting the government. Do you agree?