The Law of War Was Not Designed for Trump's Bogus 'Armed Conflict' With Drug Smugglers
Instead of asking whether a particular boat attack went too far, Congress should ask how the summary execution of criminal suspects became the new normal.
The Trump administration disputes The Washington Post's report that Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth instructed U.S. forces to "kill everybody" on a suspected drug boat in the Caribbean last September, which allegedly resulted in a second missile strike that blew apart two survivors of the initial attack who "were clinging to the smoldering wreck." But even President Donald Trump seems to agree that such an order would be problematic, and so do the Republican legislators who have promised to investigate the incident. If the Post report is accurate, a group of former military lawyers says, "the giving and the execution of these orders" would "constitute war crimes, murder, or both."
Although that much seems clear, attempts to apply the law of war in these circumstances are complicated by the atypical features of the "armed conflict" that Trump says justifies his bloodthirsty anti-drug strategy, which so far has killed 83 people in 21 attacks. Supplying illegal drugs to Americans, the president avers, amounts to "an armed attack against the United States," which supposedly makes boats believed to be carrying those drugs legitimate military targets. But the resulting violence is notably one-sided, to the point that the government's lawyers claim it does not qualify as "hostilities" under the War Powers Resolution because U.S. military personnel face no plausible risk of casualties.
Keeping in mind the mismatch between Trump's "armed conflict" and the usual understanding of the phrase, what does the Defense Department's law-of-war manual tell us that might be relevant to the Hegseth controversy? "Members of the armed forces must refuse to comply with clearly illegal orders to commit law of war violations," it says. "For example, orders to fire upon the shipwrecked would be clearly illegal."
That rule presumably would prohibit deliberately killing people clinging to the wreckage of a vessel that U.S. forces have attacked. "The term 'shipwreck' means shipwreck from any cause and includes forced landings at sea by or from aircraft," the manual says. "The shipwrecked may be understood to include those in distress at sea or stranded on the coast who are also helpless. To be considered 'shipwrecked,' persons must be in need of assistance and care, and they must refrain from any hostile act."
Hegseth's critics also argue that a "kill everybody" order would be tantamount to a "no quarter" policy, which the manual prohibits. But applying that rule in this situation is less straightforward than it might seem, especially if it requires distinguishing between Trump's avowed policy and the alleged order that he says he is sure Hegseth did not issue.
"It is forbidden to declare that no quarter will be given," the manual says. "This means that it is prohibited to order that legitimate offers of surrender will be refused or that detainees, such as unprivileged belligerents, will be summarily executed. Moreover, it is also prohibited to conduct hostilities on the basis that there shall be no survivors, or to threaten the adversary with the denial of quarter."
That rule, the manual explains, "is based on both humanitarian and military considerations," and it "also applies during non-international armed conflict"—the label that Trump has applied to his lethal anti-drug campaign. The injunction against "conduct[ing] hostilities on the basis that there shall be no survivors" seems especially relevant in this context, except that the government insists U.S. forces are not engaging in "hostilities" when they blow up suspected drug boats.
That legal position, which is aimed at avoiding the constraints imposed by the War Powers Resolution, seems inconsistent with Trump's assertion of an "armed conflict." So does the nature of that purported conflict, which poses further puzzles.
Trump explicitly rejects the prior practice of arresting suspected drug smugglers, preferring to simply kill them. So his policy does not allow for "detainees," and it makes summary execution routine. Nor is it clear how we should understand "legitimate offers of surrender" by "belligerents" whom the president has unilaterally identified as such based on the illegal business in which they allegedly are involved, as opposed to their participation in violent attacks on American targets.
Geoffrey Corn, formerly the U.S. Army's senior adviser on the law of war, rejects Trump's assertion of a "non-international armed conflict," noting that it is inconsistent with the standard definition of that term. In an interview with The New York Times, Corn noted the complications that flow from the president's dubious determination:
In a real naval armed conflict, he said, it is lawful to fire on a partly disabled enemy warship that is continuing to maneuver or fire its guns, even if there are wounded sailors aboard or shipwrecked sailors clinging to it. But if a warship signals it is out of the fight by ceasing firing and lowering its colors, he said, then it becomes illegal to keep firing upon it.
The problem with all that, he said, is that the speedboat was not a warship with guns to stop firing and colors to lower.
"This is the consequence of treating something that is not really an armed conflict as an armed conflict," he said. The speedboat could not signal it was out of the fight because "it was not really fighting to begin with."
The root of the problem is that Trump conflates drug smuggling with violent aggression, which in his mind transforms murder into self-defense. Based on that fallacious assumption, he has authorized a campaign that trashes due process and obliterates the traditional distinction between combatants and civilians. Instead of asking whether a specific instance of that general policy transgressed the law of war, which was not designed for a situation like this, Congress should ask how the summary execution of criminal suspects became the new normal.
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How, EXACTLY, does the WaPo know that people were hanging on to parts of the blown-up ship? They have, literally, zero evidence for their claim.
Also, could not give less of a shit about your opinion on anything. Nor the UN. Boats acting like terrorists receive zero protections. Sorry not sorry.
Sorry not sorry?!?!?
You ARE a sorry excuse for a supposedly humanoid being!!!
Hey Damiksec, damiskec, and damikesc, Damned-and-Sick, and ALL of your other socks…
How is your totalitarian scheme to FORCE people to buy Reason magazines coming along?
Free speech (freedom from “Cancel Culture”) comes from Facebook, Twitter, Tik-Tok, and Google, right? THAT is why we need to pass laws to severely constrict these DANGEROUS companies (which, ugh!, the BASTARDS, put profits above people!)!!! We must pass new laws to retract “Section 230” and FORCE the evil corporations to provide us all (EXCEPT for my political enemies, of course!) with a “UBIFS”, a Universal Basic Income of Free Speech!
So leftist “false flag” commenters will inundate Reason-dot-com with shitloads of PROTECTED racist comments, and then pissed-off readers and advertisers and buyers (of Reason magazine) will all BOYCOTT Reason! And right-wing idiots like Damikesc will then FORCE people to support Reason, so as to nullify the attempts at boycotts! THAT is your ultimate authoritarian “fix” here!!!
“Now, to “protect” Reason from this meddling here, are we going to REQUIRE readers and advertisers to support Reason, to protect Reason from boycotts?”
Yup. Basically. Sounds rough. (Quote damikesc)
(Etc.)
See https://reason.com/2020/06/24/the-new-censors/
(And Asshole Extraordinaire will NEVER take back its' totalitarian bullshit!!!! 'Cause Asshole Extraordinaire is already PERFECT in every way!!!)
This (above damikesc quote) is a gem of the damnedest dumbness of damikesc! Like MANY “perfect in their own minds” asshole authoritarians around here, he will NEVER take back ANY of the stupidest and most evil things that he has written! I have more of those on file… I deploy them to warn other readers to NOT bother to try and reason with the most utterly unreasonable of the nit-wit twits around here!
Stossel was talking about you, Squealsy, you idiot fascist shit. You and your ilk were illegally censoring the entire internet.
I'm old enough to remember 2 years ago when you said censorship demands from the FBI and CIA were those government agencies free speech. Fucking evil psychopath.
I remember that to. Crazy shit.
Just like You PervFectly remember a LOT of lies! Like, that I said that I enjoy eating shit! Citations please!
Many of You Cunt-SoreVaTurds just make up LIES for Tribalist-Shitistic dog-piles! Shit seems to usually be the "best" that Ye can PervFectly do!
Execute the squirrel. And make it suffer. Its very existence is an insult to God’s creation. Instead of a soul, it has Tim’s wand up it’s ass.
Citation please, liar! Government employees have free speech rights AS INDIVIDUALS! Making threats under the color of Government Almighty powers isn't the same thing at all. Do Government Almighty employees become SLAVES and give up ALL of their rights?
Also, WHY are You Pervfectly covering and deflecting for one who is documented ass having said the people should be FORCED to buy magazines, Moose-Mammary Marxist?
They just feel as if it is true.
If they can sell it, it becomes true.
Until it doesn't.
See Trump/Russia
Kavanaugh/Rape
etc.
They know a guy who knows a guy who knows a guy who made up some stories
Pedo Jeffy says so. What more could you possibly need?
Missing the bigger part of today's press conference.
ObamaTrump will be doing land strikes soon, presumably without an act of Congress authorizing them. How about Congress needs to authorize any further action or these need to stop, remaining silent on the issue should not be an option."Trump will be doing land strikes soon"
Unless it's a one off like hitting a nuke site, I bet ya he won't. We've already heard this song with Iran, North Korea and Gaza.
Trump has the exact same powers as his predecessors. Of he exceeds that authority, Congress’s should step in. Until then, ceryome can stop the convenient handwringing. As there is no ‘but Trump!’ The exception to executive power.
Today, suspected drugs smugglers, providing willing buyers in the USA with desired products, are arbitrarily declared to be armed, war-fighting combatants, and can be legally killed on sight, according to Dear Orange Caligula.
Tomorrow, suspected toys-tariff-tax-evaders, smuggling untaxed toys (Oh, the HORRORS!!! TOY-TERRORISTS!!!) from China, shall ALSO be killed on sight, with NO attempts at apprehension, arrest, or trials!
ALL MUST OBEY DEAR ORANGE CALIGULA, peons!!! All Hail!!!
JS;dr
VD;dr. VD (Venereal Disease) is some BAD shit! Go see the Dr. if you've got the VD!!! THAT is why I say VD;dr.!!!
(Some forms of VD also cause bona fide mental illness… THINK about shit! VD is NOTHING to "clap" about!)
(Some forms of VD also cause bona fide mental illness… THINK about shit! VD is NOTHING to "clap" about!)
Speaking from experience, Melvin?
Now we know real story how he ended up in the facility.
The should have it put down immediately. Use fire, acid, whatever it takes.
The only VD Sqrlsy will be catching are distemper or canine transmissible venereal tumor.
JS;dr
Hey Gears Grimy and Stoooopid...
I am SOOOOO Smart that I did SNOT read Your PervFected Shit, thereby refuting shit, and now, I BRAG about shit!
Are YOU PervFectly impressed? Are You THAT stupid?
Are ALL MAGA-maggots as evil and stupid ass YOU PervFectly are?
JS;dr?
Then, why waste your time commenting?
The premise of this post is false. The Laws of War are perfectly capable of handling what Trump is doing. The law does not care one lick if a country calls an "armed conflict", what matters is what it actually is.
Strange statement given your home country china doesnt recognize the laws of war.
Stfu commie scum.
STFU and STFD, commietard.
MG;dr
Chico, traitors will be executed. Better go hide, Tiananmen Tony. Maybe at your local bathhouse.
So this is now four. Second one for JS.
And on the scoreboard for the Minnesota/Somali welfare fraud story, let me count them all. That would be zero.
Stop carrying water for the Democrats, and I will have no problem with you criticizing this escalation of the drug war, cause I don't like it either. But until you do, this isn't a principled libertarian stand, it's just water carrying.
Reminder: Sullum was all in on the Russia hoax during Trump’s first term. He’s not a journalist, he’s a propagandist. Reason has zero credibility as long as they publish him.
Datarepublican showed the current Color Revolution attempt can be traced to Charles Kochs pocketbook.
How awesome would it be if Sullum was charged with seditious conspiracy?
So many people like that belong in federal prison.
Reminder: Trump appointed Rodentstain who appointed Mueller.
Reminder: Trump fired Flynn and then appointed McMaster who manipulated him into escalating Afghanistan and getting 73 more heroes killed for nothing before Trump went with his gut and surrendered to the Taliban.
Reminder: Trump fired Comey only to replace him with Wray.
Reminder: Trump appointed Tillerson on Condi Rice’s recommendation.
Reminder: Trump wanted to pull Kavanaugh’s nomination before Bush undercut him and ordered Collins to confirm him. Leo and McGahn also manipulated Trump into nominating ACB who along with Kavanaugh would end up stabbing Trump in the back multiple times.
Reminder: Trump spent billions on developing the dangerous and ineffective Covid vaccines.
Reminder: Trump added $8 trillion to the debt while never hitting 3% GDP growth. 🙁
JS;dr
What a strange unacknowledged retreat from your article yesterday after even the NYT debunked your claims.
Can I request an introspective article on why you keep falling for liberal narratives?
He doesn’t fall for anything. He’s told what to write and he writes it. He doesn’t care if it’s true.
"...and I'm Jacob Sullum. Go fuck yourself Americans."
The white out will cover Maddow's signature if he did.
Based on that fallacious assumption, he has authorized a campaign that trashes due process and obliterates the traditional distinction between combatants and civilians.
Are you sure it isnt you confused on the subject? Do you assume all combatants wear uniforms? I can point to the cartels issuing kill orders on American troops and agents.
It amazes me how you care more about the rights of drug smugglers than you ever did for J6 protestors, trumps lawyers, trump, et al. You literally defended the abuses pushed by Jack Smith and Garland.
Hell. You didnt bat an eye for Babbit despite Biden giving Officer Byrd a medal.
Hey, I'm sure he batted an eye while ejaculating over the thought of some MAGA chud getting executed by a noble defender of "our Democracy".
I can point to the cartels issuing kill orders on American troops and agents.
OK. Let's see that.
Kiki Camerino.
Is that Kirk Cameron’s drag persona?
Drug prohibition is wrong. If he wasn't trying to prosecute the drug war, he would still be alive. He was a combatant in the drug war. He was involved in prosecution. In general, drug cartels spend their time smuggling not killing.
It does not take an admiralty lawyer to appreciate that shooting survivors of a sinking self-evidently violates the law of the sea.
Were President Reagan, Secretary Nitze or Tom Clancy still alive and on deck, they'd have Hegseth's guts for garters .
Because three of WWII's most infamous war criminals were the U-boat captain and officers who threw hand grenades at the life rafts of merchant seamen whose ship they torpedoed in 1944.
In 1945, though ably defended by six lawyers before a British Naval tribunal in a week long trial, they were convicted on the eyewitness testimony of the survivors, and executed by firing squad.
So much for the "fog of war" defense.
You’re a clown.
A brilliantly PervSuasive writer knows a clown when shit sees shit, for sure!!!
Do you recall the awesome enchanter named “Tim”, in “Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail”? The one who could “summon fire without flint or tinder”? Well, you remind me of Tim… You are an enchanter who can summon persuasion without facts or logic!
So I discussed your awesome talents with some dear personal friends on the Reason staff… Accordingly…
Reason staff has asked me to convey the following message to you:
Hi Fantastically Talented Author:
Obviously, you are a silver-tongued orator, and you also know how to translate your spectacular talents to the written word! We at Reason have need for writers like you, who have near-magical persuasive powers, without having to write at great, tedious length, or resorting to boring facts and citations.
At Reason, we pay above-market-band salaries to permanent staff, or above-market-band per-word-based fees to freelancers, at your choice. To both permanent staff, and to free-lancers, we provide excellent health, dental, and vision benefits. We also provide FREE unlimited access to nubile young groupies, although we do firmly stipulate that persuasion, not coercion, MUST be applied when taking advantage of said nubile young groupies.
Please send your resume, and another sample of your writings, along with your salary or fee demands, to ReasonNeedsBrilliantlyPersuasiveWriters@Reason.com .
Thank PervFected You! -Reason Staff
Raising the surrender flag, Melvin?
That's the one Shillsy always posts when he loses and ragequits.
Tim the enchanter, again?
SCROTUS can SNOT read! Twat an udder slurpprise!
Penguin, you know for a fact that he is right, yes, you do. You hurl insults because you know he's right and you have nothing.
As usual, you continue to push a preferred narrative as truth. That is the basis of all leftist beliefs.
And a discredited one at that.
No. They were unflagged ships. And by sailing in the ocean, outside territorial waters, without displaying the flag of a nation, they have excluded themselves from the Laws of the Seas that apply to everyone else. They are considered pirates or smugglers, and as such, no quarter is due or need be given. This has been the case for centuries, including well over two centuries ago when our third President, Thomas Jefferson, dispatched our nascent Navy to dispatch Muslim pirates raiding the European coastline, and capturing our sailors and selling them into slavery.
Yep. Pirate scum gotta die. Send them all down to Davey Jone’s locker. At least the ones that weren’t obliterated in the strike.
Shitloads of small fishing and pleasure boats don't carry a flag, liar!!! If they carry a "flag", it is just some tiny label on the ship, or papers being carried. Our cowardly "warriors" (Trump and Hag-Smith) do NOT even check for this kind of shit before blowing away peaceful travelers! HOW do you verify "proper papers" or labels on a small ship from crappy remote footage gathered by drones, liar? HOW do You PervFectly justify murdering "unflagged" survivors clinging to wreckage? Can we also murder those marooned on tiny islands, for being unflagged?
Nailed it. That basically was the reason that the US Navy was created. 250 years ago.
Where have the drug smugglers raided coastline or captured sailors or taken slaves?
In point of fact, the traders--assuming there were any--were earning money offered them by men and women willing and able to pay for a product they wanted--until they were gunned down. Murdering minions get their blood money from politicians who sent men with guns out to grab it off of unwilling victims. In Nationalsocialist Jesus country, robbery finances murder and looting in order to stamp out voluntary trade and production. This has already caused many wars, most notably WW1 and WW2, fairytales notwithstanding.
How can he commit a war crime when there is no declaration of war by congress?
Try another fantasy.
The guys on the wrong side of the firing squad certainly managed.
The ship they torpedoed & sank before attacking its survivors in 1944, the SS Peleus was, no surprise, Greek, and Greece didn'e declare war on Germany until 1945.
Please check your facts before fantasizing further.
This was in the memo sent out to retards it seems. Keeps getting repeated ad nauseum despite the situations having very few similar facts.
Obama is killing too many terrorists with drone strikes!! He should be putting soldiers in harms way and capturing them and sending them to Gitmo for Hastert and Foley to buttfuck!! Although they only like the barely legal terrorists! 😉
Long ago I came to the conclusion that idiots like this should just be swept aside. They are dragging our country down, and have no place here. Just like the entire democrat party.
Let's see if I can sell this one.
(If it happened - WaPo and all that)
It was an act of mercy to prevent a horrible death from shark attacks/dying of thirst/sun stroke.
Mercy killing for those reasons plus I will add if they made it to shore they would be skewered by cartel members pissed they let the boat get blown up.
I gather you've never sailed the eastern Caribbean,
take a look at a chart & the prevailing winds -
https://earth.nullschool.net/#current/ocean/surface/level/overlay=currents/orthographic=-71.30,13.32,2781/loc=-63.518,11.998
and you'll see whyvessels losing power west of Trinidad tend to end up on Venezuela's long lee shore a few days later.
Youre just not smart are you? Give your comment youre stating the 2nd shot was to sink the ship and not target survivors. Yet your other posts assume the latter. No consistency.
That makes no sense whatever. Explain what you mean.
Lol. So dumb, clown.
JizzeAzz is saying he can buttfuck survivors…or if they have been dead for a short time. 😉
Lame. Have you considered using AI to help your trolling?
I’m old enough to remember Hastert and Foley fighting to keep Elian Gonzalez here so they could diddle him! Rubio was willing to sacrifice Elian at the alter of Epstein to get ahead in the GOP—Gay Old Pedos!
Better it uses AI for assisted suicide.
Wut? Your post here literally talks about drifting ships retard. Did you even read what you posted?
Hastert is demanding Trump capture the young brown ones and send them to Gitmo for him to buttfuck!! Foley wants in on the tag team just like when Bush was president and you were singing “God Bless the USA (where a Republican can buttfuck brown terrorists in Gitmo)”
The lunatic who wanted to burn down police stations and doesn't dream about having children, but having POWER...
...has thankfully lost the special congressional election in Tennessee.
Someontimes batshit crazy can win if the other side is being blamed for making normal life difficult.
But not always.
Maybe the democrats shouldn’t lit up candidates that openly claim to despise their potential constituents. I could be wrong.
So a GOP rapist got more votes?
I seriously don't think there's a single subject Sullum gets more worked up about than anyone coming - or even potentially coming - between him and his getting high.
Only Altruist Totalitarian's cowardly gloating over some other nazi murderer rises higher.
There was no offer of surrender and they were not detained so wtf are you talking about?
“Obama is droning terrorists because he’s afraid to put them in Gitmo”
Typical Republican under Obama…so what is Trump afraid of?? Obviously that these men are fishermen and have nothing to do with drug trafficking.
Of course they aren’t fishermen. It would be an idiotic boat for any type of fishing. 100 mph out to the fishing grounds, then trolling at 1 mph? Nowhere it put the fish if/and when you catch any fish. No place to store the needed lines. No line haulers to pull nets or lines back in, and too few crew to do so manually.
There is one, and only one use for these boats that financially justifies their expense. It’s not fishing. It’s smuggling.
Congress should ask how the summary execution of criminal suspects became the new normal.
What interesting thing for a libertarian to say. I know Reason is all "Bordurz iz konstruktz!" to hide their Globalist Lebensraum ideology, but this is pretty blatantly (muddling and) extending Congressional and Judicial authority to the furthest reaches of international water and beyond... granting a lot of people who aren't citizens positive/active rights at the cost of the American taxpayer... as a foregone conclusion.
Also, summary executions are the normal throughout all of history up to and including the present day. As far as people being killed by other people goes, people dying as the result of free and fair trial is a tiny fractional exception, not the norm. And, of course, anyone whose been around for more than two minutes knows that even if it was the norm, you'd still oppose killing them even if a jury of peers rightly and objectively cited the law in doing so.
Because you aren't actually a libertarian. You don't want people to be free to do what they do so long as it doesn't harm you. You want people around the world to obey your ideology at no personal cost to you.
"To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;
To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water"
Much as I detest what is going on, the Constitution seems to give the Federal government and its departments a pretty broad mandate. That said, I expect that even pirates are supposed to get their day in court before execution.
For those too lazy to look it up, that is Article I, § 8, ¶¶ 10 & 11.
Other interesting stuff lower down in § 8
https://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/articlei#
There's a video out about one of the previous prohibitionist murders:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ht-wJvAwhxo
On March 29, 1944, Japanese sub crewmen gunned down survivors of the Ricard Hovey torpedoes in the Indian Ocean. Of 95 captured off of the Jean Nicolet, all were robbed and many beaten to death July 2. A Nip sub sank the John S Johnson October 30 and machine-gunned survivors in lifeboats and rafts. These events and many like them are recorded as war crimes.
Interestingly, Japan produced cocaine on Taiwan much like the Dutch Indies. The Dutch plowed addictive poppy fields to plant non-habit-forming coca, largely out of ethical concerns beginning 1893. When Japan followed suit in the 1920s they were harried by ku-klux prohibitionists to the point of leaving the American-controlled League of Nations. Germany also saw how the deck was stacked and bailed. Yet Anslinger's gang persisted...