Hegseth's Alleged Order To 'Kill Everybody' Complicates Trump's Defense of His Murderous Anti-Drug Campaign
Even if you accept the president's assertion of an "armed conflict" with drug smugglers, blowing apart survivors of a boat strike would be a war crime.
Eight days after the September 2 operation that inaugurated President Donald Trump's lethal military campaign against suspected drug boats, The Intercept reported that people who survived the initial missile strike were "killed shortly after in a follow-up attack." On Friday, The Washington Post confirmed that account, saying the commander overseeing the operation, based on an oral directive from Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth to "kill everybody," ordered a second strike on "two survivors" who "were clinging to the smoldering wreck."
If that report is accurate, Reason's Christian Britschgi notes, "the second strike on helpless survivors would add a degree of barbarism to the administration's anti-drug campaign." It also would further complicate the arguments that Trump has deployed to justify his unprecedented policy of summarily executing suspected drug smugglers, which so far has involved 21 attacks that killed 83 people in the Caribbean and the eastern Pacific. Even if you accept Trump's dubious claim that the United States is engaged in a "non-international armed conflict" with "narcoterrorists," which supposedly means U.S. forces can legally attack vessels believed to be carrying illegal drugs, deliberately killing survivors would be contrary to the law of war.
"Both the giving and the execution of these orders" would "constitute war crimes, murder, or both," the Former JAGs Working Group, which consists of lawyers who previously served in the military, said on Saturday. "If the U.S. military operation to interdict and destroy suspected narcotrafficking vessels is a 'non-international armed conflict' as the Trump Administration suggests, orders to 'kill everybody,' which can reasonably be regarded as an order to give 'no quarter,' and to 'double-tap' a target in order to kill survivors, are clearly illegal under international law. In short, they are war crimes."
The former military lawyers add that the situation is even graver "if the U.S. military operation is not an armed conflict of any kind." In that case, they say, "these orders to kill helpless civilians clinging to the wreckage of a vessel our military destroyed would
subject everyone from [the secretary of defense] down to the individual who pulled the trigger to prosecution under U.S. law for murder."
Rep. Michael R. Turner (R–Ohio), a former chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, likewise recognized the import of the Post's article during a Face the Nation interview on Sunday. "If that occurred," he said, it would be "very serious," and "I agree" it "would be an illegal act." He noted that "there are very serious concerns in Congress about the attacks on the so-called drug boats" and about "the legal justification [that] has been provided." But he said the follow-up strike described by the Post "is completely outside of anything that has been discussed with Congress."
The Senate Armed Services Committee "is aware of recent news reports—and the Department of Defense's initial response—regarding alleged follow-on strikes on suspected narcotics vessels in the SOUTHCOM area of responsibility," Sen. Roger Wicker (R–Miss.), the committee's chairman, and Sen. Jack Reed (D–R.I.), the committee's ranking minority member, said in a statement on Friday. "The Committee has directed inquiries to the Department, and we will be conducting vigorous oversight to determine the facts related to these circumstances."
On Saturday, the House Armed Services Committee said it also would look into the incident. "We take seriously the reports of follow-on strikes on boats alleged to be ferrying narcotics in the SOUTHCOM region and are taking bipartisan action to gather a full accounting of the operation in question," said Rep. Mike Rogers (R–Ala.), the committee's chairman, and Rep. Adam Smith (D–Wash.), the committee's ranking minority member.
Based on information from four unnamed sources "with direct knowledge of the matter," the Post reports that "the elite counterterror group SEAL Team 6 led the attack," which killed a total of 11 people, under the command of Adm. Frank M. Bradley at Fort Bragg in North Carolina. Here is how the Post describes the attack: "A missile screamed off the Trinidad coast, striking the vessel and igniting a blaze from bow to stern. For minutes, commanders watched the boat burning on a live drone feed. As the smoke cleared, they got a jolt: Two survivors were clinging to the smoldering wreck." According to two of the Post's sources, Bradley "ordered a second strike to comply with Hegseth's instructions," and "the two men were blown apart in the water."
Such instructions "would in essence be an order to show no quarter, which would be a war crime," former military lawyer Todd Huntley, "who advised Special Operations forces for seven years at the height of the U.S. counterterrorism campaign," told the Post. The second strike described by the Post also contrasts with what happened after subsequent attacks on suspected drug boats.
After an October 16 attack in the Caribbean that killed two people, The New York Times notes, "two men from the boat were rescued by the U.S. military and repatriated within days to Colombia and Ecuador." And after an October 27 attack that killed 15 people in the eastern Pacific, "U.S. surveillance spotted one of the men clinging to wreckage and alerted the Mexican Navy," which "tried to find and rescue him for four days but could not."
Why didn't U.S. forces take the same approach on September 2? "In briefing materials provided to the White House," the Post says, the Joint Special Operations Command "reported that the 'double-tap,' or follow-on strike, was intended to sink the boat and remove a navigation hazard to other vessels—not to kill survivors." According to "two congressional aides," the paper reports, "a similar explanation was given to lawmakers in two closed-door briefings."
Pentagon spokesman Sean Parnell nevertheless declined to answer the Post's questions about Hegseth's instructions or the circumstances of the second strike. But Parnell suggested that any criticism of Trump's bloodthirsty anti-drug campaign was misguided. "This entire narrative is completely false," he told the Post. "Ongoing operations to dismantle narcoterrorism and to protect the Homeland from deadly drugs have been a resounding success."
Hegseth likewise dodged the legal issues raised by the Post's report. "As usual, the fake news is delivering more fabricated, inflammatory, and derogatory reporting to discredit our incredible warriors fighting to protect the homeland," he said in an X post on Friday. "As we've said from the beginning, and in every statement, these highly effective strikes are specifically intended to be 'lethal, kinetic strikes.' The declared intent is to stop lethal drugs, destroy narco-boats, and kill the narco-terrorists who are poisoning the American people. Every trafficker we kill is affiliated with a Designated Terrorist Organization."
The Pentagon has not named any of the men whose deaths Trump has ordered. But it said all 11 people killed in the September 2 attack were members of the Venezuelan gang Tren de Aragua, which is on the State Department's list of "foreign terrorist organizations" (FTOs). That designation is puzzling as applied to drug cartels, which are criminal organizations motivated by profit rather than religious or ideological groups that use violence to achieve political goals. And contrary to Hegseth's implication, an FTO designation, which authorizes the Treasury Department to block transactions involving a listed group's assets and triggers criminal penalties for providing it with "material support or resources," is not a license to kill that transforms murder into self-defense.
In addition to describing his targets as "narcoterrorists," Trump conflates drug smuggling with violent aggression, saying the cartels' activities "constitute an armed attack against the United States." But the "non-international armed conflict" he perceives has not been recognized by Congress, and it departs from the United Nations definition of that term, which requires violent confrontations between "organised Parties" that possess "organised armed forces." The violence must "meet a minimum threshold of intensity" that distinguishes it from threats such as "riots," "banditry," "unorganized and short-lived insurrections," and "terrorist activities."
The "armed conflict" that Trump describes does not meet these criteria. "This is not stretching the envelope," Geoffrey Corn, formerly the U.S. Army's senior adviser on the law of war, told The New York Times. "This is shredding it."
Trump's assertion of an "armed conflict" also seems to contradict his administration's claim that U.S. forces are not engaged in "hostilities" when they blow up suspected drug boats, meaning the operations are not covered by the War Powers Resolution. According to the Justice Department, that law's constraints do not apply in this situation because American service members face no plausible threat of casualties, which underlines the point that Trump is killing people in cold blood without moral or legal justification.
Trump and Hegseth have publicly argued that drug smugglers can be legally killed because they are "combatants" in an "armed conflict"—albeit one that somehow does not involve "hostilities." But a confidential memo from the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) reportedly takes a different tack. Citing "people who have read it," The New York Times reports that the memo "is said to focus instead on the purported shipments of narcotics aboard, portraying those as the specific targets of the strikes based on the theory that their sale would generate revenue that cartels would use to finance their alleged war efforts."
According to the OLC, in other words, the boats are legitimate military targets because the drugs they carry provide financial support for the cartels' "armed attack against the United States." But that "armed attack," according to Trump, consists of supplying Americans with the prohibited intoxicants they want, a business that is simultaneously warfare and the means of financing warfare.
All of this is pretty confusing, especially as a justification for killing criminal suspects instead of intercepting and arresting them, a practice that Hegseth derides as "the kid gloves approach" and Trump complains has been "totally ineffective." But even if Trump can avoid due process and obliterate the distinction between civilians and combatants by portraying drug smuggling as an "armed attack," the military response to that purported attack is still constrained by the law of war, which frowns on killing defenseless people clinging to a boat's wreckage.
On Sunday, Trump implicitly acknowledged that point. "I wouldn't have wanted that," he told reporters. "Not a second strike." But Trump said he has "great confidence" that Hegseth did not issue the "kill everybody" order described by the Post. Trump said Hegseth told him "he did not say that, and I believe him, 100 percent."
On Monday, White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt reiterated that Hegseth issued no such order but added: "President Trump and Secretary Hegseth have made it clear that presidentially designated narcoterrorist groups are subject to lethal targeting in accordance with the laws of war. With respect to the strikes in question on September 2, Secretary Hegseth authorized Admiral Bradley to conduct these kinetic strikes. Admiral Bradley worked well within his authority and the law, directing the engagement to ensure the boat was destroyed and the threat to the United States of America was eliminated."
So no, Trump is not having second thoughts about the morality of killing suspected drug smugglers. "The first strike was very lethal," he said on Sunday, and "it was fine."
Was it? Huntley joins many other experts on the law of war in rejecting Hegseth's claim that "our current operations in the Caribbean are lawful under both U.S. and international law, with all actions in compliance with the law of armed conflict." Because the longstanding effort to stop illegal drugs from entering the country does not qualify as an "armed conflict," Huntley told the Post, killing suspected smugglers, whether in a boat or in the water, "amounts to murder."
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TDS driven Sullum quoting equally TDS driven Britschgi.
"If (key word) the report is accurate..."
Then go on anyway and call Trump a barbarian.
Sounds exactly like sarc and the Chinese national, Molly G.
If that report is accurate, Reason's Christian Britschgi notes, "the second strike on helpless survivors would add a degree of barbarism to the administration's anti-drug campaign.
So true. The only problem with the headline is that Hegseth never issued an order to "kill everyone". It would be nice to talk policy without outright lies like this but that wouldn't drive comments and clicks would it
And reason goes from alleged report from anonymous sources to reported fact under 12 hours.
Take note sullum. An actual professor.
https://x.com/BrianCox_RLTW/status/1994660774292119870
Conversation
Dr. Brian L. Cox
@BrianCox_RLTW
CALLING ALL JOURNALISTS
Listen up. The further I progress in j school, the less patience I have for journalistic malpractice when covering int'l law involving armed conflict in our media coverage. Take this story
@CNN
by
@NatashaBertrand
for example.
For now, I'll focus on ONE specific #LOAC issue covered in this story since Natasha also addresses it in QTd post: when a person qualifies as "hors de combat" - or out of the fight due to sickness, illness, injury, or detention.
According to anonymous sources in connected stories
@washingtonpost
&
@theintercept
, operators
@Southcom
&
@SOCSOUTH
attacked 2 suspected narco-terrorists somewhere in open waters of the Caribbean who survived an initial strike on their boat. This is sometimes referred to colloquially as a "double tap" attack & it was supposedly a response to guidance from
@SecWar
@PeteHegseth
to "kill everyone."
Natasha seeks commentary from Sarah Harrison
@CrisisGroup
, who claims it's unlawful pursuant to #LOAC to attack somebody who "is ‘hors de combat’ and no longer able to fight, then they have to be treated humanely." Natasha reiterates this claim using slightly different language in her post
@X
QTd here.
Here's the thing: both source & journalist are wrong. And confirming this is as easy as opening the latest edition of DoD Law of War Manual & searching for "hors de combat".
If journalists did so, they would encounter plenty of material confirming Harrison's characterization of int'l law - and those who express similar commentary - is incorrect. But don't just take my word for it: read the attached excerpts of the Manual for yourself (highlights added for emphasis).
The common theme among these excerpts can be summarized by one simple phrase: a person is only rendered hors de combat "under circumstances where it is feasible for the opposing party to accept the surrender." Any guesses what these anonymous sources at the center of this whole media frenzy fail to establish?
That's right! That it was feasible to accept the surrender of these suspected narco-terrorists under the circumstances on the high seas.
If it was not, then the suspected civilians taking direct part in hostilities were NOT hors de combat. Period.
Now, if a reporter were engaged in balanced & informed journalism, s/he would do some research to discover this standard so they can at least ensure their source addresses it. In this case, it might sound something like this during the interview:
"Ms. Harrison, you said somebody who is 'hors de combat and no longer able to fight, then they have to be treated humanely,' but are you able to determine whether US military forces were able to accept the surrender of the people on or near the boat under the circumstances at the time? If so, what is the source of this factual knowledge? And if you are not able to confirm the circumstances, how does this impact your claim that this 'double tap' strike violated LOAC?"
As a reader, think about how much answers to these questions might influence your understanding of the (un?)lawfulness of this reported strike. Yet, this context isn't presented to you because the person writing the story - the journalist - doesn't understand the body of law she's reporting to you.
And here's the thing. It's not just Natasha Bertrand or CNN or this one article or this one issue in the article. This professional #journalisticmalpractice manifests almost every time journalists report on int'l law involving armed conflict, for similar reasons as those addressed above.
Think about how often this body of law is addressed in news coverage. Getting it wrong on 1 issue in 1 article is bad enough. For this to happen nearly every time media covers applied LOAC creates a global pandemic of misinformation.
Quite simply, standards actually being applied in practice aren't consistent with expectations created by media coverage.
The lesson is simple & clear: do better. We owe it to our audience to find ways to get LOAC right.
Quite simply, standards actually being applied in practice aren't consistent with expectations created by media coverage.
It's no accident, it's 100% Intentional.
Narratives do not create themselves.
Why bother investigating, (or even typing for that matter), when all you have to do is copy paste and then feel smug.
Ground war rules don't apply. Shipwrecked individuals are off limits.
https://www.justsecurity.org/125948/illegal-orders-shipwrecked-boat-strike-survivors/
Think of it as a mercy killing. The sharks would get them anyway.
Being a Democrat, Mike cares so much about criminals. More than citizens in fact.
Still denying they are drug dealers even after the AP interviewed family members who admitted they were. Mike is virtuous like that.
Fair point. As it seems they could legally leave them to die slowly or as shark food.
Well, just so long as we all have your blessing.
You don't
Awww.
The armed narco terrorist boats were still afloat. The boats were fair targets. This isn’t a game where the military gets one shot. They get as many as it takes to eliminate the threat. They targeted the threat not the helpless shipwrecked. That’s a bullshit false narrative based on anonymous “sources.” The same game we endured ad nauseam during the Russian collusion fraud.
It’s hilarious to see leftist idiots like Quixy try and lecture us on how any of this works.
International law? What about US law? I'm sure Trump is writing up the required War Powers Act notice to Congress and will send it over. Any day now.
He already declared them a FTO. Congress can vote to overturn his declaration. But he declared them to be as prescribed by current laws. Only takes a majority vote.
This is also not a war as defined. No uniformed soldiers or state backing.
Yeah like he was writing up his infrastructure plan and his Healthcare plan.
Oh fuck off. You’re a massive idiot spewing idiocy.
It’s just boring.
None of that actually disputed whether Hegseth said to "kill them all".
So I hear you’re a ChiCom asset. They mis the paying you in 55 gallon drums of Ben & Jerry’s.
Give me audio and I'll believe it.
Seeing as how it’s an “anonymous source” that supposedly was involved in said strike, I’m taking it with even more of a grain of salt than usual.
And besides, arguing over the semantics of whether these two people were "hors de combat" or not misses the larger point:
THEY'RE NOT EVEN COMBATANTS. There is no war. There is no evidence whatsoever that they were terrorists or engaged in warfare against the US. Simply "declaring" someone to be a terrorist does not make them one.
Simply "declaring" someone to be a terrorist does not make them one.
What does?
Someone in a fancy robe, banging a mallet, and declaring someone to be a terrorist. Completely different.
Wrong, as usual:
Designation
Once a target is identified, CT prepares a detailed “administrative record,” which is a compilation of information, typically including both classified and open sources information, demonstrating that the statutory criteria for designation have been satisfied. If the Secretary of State, in consultation with the Attorney General and the Secretary of the Treasury, decides to make the designation, Congress is notified of the Secretary’s intent to designate the organization and given seven days to review the designation, as the INA requires. Upon the expiration of the seven-day waiting period and in the absence of Congressional action to block the designation, notice of the designation is published in the Federal Register, at which point the designation takes effect. By law an organization designated as an FTO may seek judicial review of the designation in the United States Court of Appeals for the District of Columbia Circuit not later than 30 days after the designation is published in the Federal Register.
https://www.state.gov/foreign-terrorist-organizations
Can you give us more information on this phrase?"demonstrating that the statutory criteria for designation have been satisfied.""
Statutory. Would that not imply some legal standards must be met for such a designation?
What if the administration goes ahead with weak, fabricated or no statutory criteria? That must negate the terrorist designation or else there is no limitation on the executive declaring anyone at any time a terrorist and legally killing them.
So St. Obama is a war criminal hundreds of times over with his kill list and in fact every President is because they didn't get specific judicial authorization for each individual killed in those conflicts. That is what you"re demanding, you're just too stupid to realize it or too dishonest to say so.
Wrong, Obama targeted us citizens, Trump Is targeting not us citezens
So it's only a war crime if it's against Americans?
Not what he said. You’re just making a desperate attempt to change the argument,
Not working.
So St. Obama is a war criminal hundreds of times over with his kill list
Correct
Yes. How is this hard ?
Wrong place
Identification cards.
Retards like jeffmike keep ignoring actual facts and evidence even from the AP or the fact congress can undo the declaration whenever they want.
It's 2029, and President AOC declares JesseBot to be a terrorist because he's one of those knuckle-dragging bitter clinger MAGA cultists. Guess that makes Jesse a terrorist now!
Lying Jeffy supports AOC being our next president.
This continues to be an asinine argument.
Edit: To whit, it’s a little more involved than AOC jumping on Bluesky to declare a US citizen is a terrorist right before she bombs him on US soil.
Umm, Notarized ID cards or I'm not buying it.
Oh well shit, if Fatfuck says there’s no evidence there must not be any.
I still remember when jeff demanded we all use the AP. Now they are apparently right wing. Maybe jacobin is the new standard.
Simply declaring that there's NO WAR when we are under attack does not make it so.
TL - JS;dr
It was all raving TDS bullshit anyway.
"Ms. Harrison, you said somebody who is 'hors de combat and no longer able to fight, then they have to be treated humanely,' but are you able to determine whether US military forces were able to accept the surrender of the people on or near the boat under the circumstances at the time? If so, what is the source of this factual knowledge? And if you are not able to confirm the circumstances, how does this impact your claim that this 'double tap' strike violated LOAC?"
This is Reason and DNC-narrative central. They will ban all manner of execution up to and including lethal injections performed after someone has been sedated according to protocols most normal people go through to get their wisdom teeth removed.
Then, when you start killing people who deserve or even require it with nitrogen asphyxiation, they'll lie and tell you that it's untested. They don't care about law or order or science or facts as known. They don't actually care about anyone being killed on the high seas or domestically down stream. It's all about the revolution. Undermining any social order that they don't like.
I would point out that you are also skipping a step, verifying that any of this actually happened.
This is little more than rumor and third hand statements. Mission orders are not given to individual ship captains verbally. They are written, directed, and explicit. There would be a paper trail a mile long if such an order actually occurred, and it would require dozens or hundreds of people who are explicitly trained in these laws more than any of us to ignore that training and go along with it.
The line "the commander overseeing the operation, based on an oral directive from Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth to "kill everybody," struck me as odd.
If Hegseth is giving to-the-minute orders in real time "the commander" ordering the second strike is Commander in title only.
Pete said, "Kill everyone." with the understanding that help isn't coming and they aren't able to accept surrender. The Commander executed the orders with that understanding.
Again, assuming it happened. I have doubts that a cabinet secretary would be directly overseeing such an action, that an admiral would allow such a direct control of their fleet, that a captain would allow such direct control of the ship, or that anyone would pull the trigger on the demand of an unelected civilian giving a command like a supervillain. It staggers belief because it's an unbelievable claim as written.
So either our military is acting like an epic fantasy war movie, the reporting is using a lot of poetic phrasing, or it didn't happen.
Geneva convention as revised in 1977
Article 44 section 8
8. In addition to the categories of persons mentioned in Article 13 of the First and Second Conventions, all members of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict, as defined in Article 43 of this Protocol, shall be entitled to protection under those Conventions if they are wounded or sick or, in the case of the Second Convention, shipwrecked at sea or in other waters.
As for the "feasible to accept the surrender"
If it doesn't put you into danger (example, crossing a field to accept surrender might put you in danger) and you can support prisoners (example: you don't have food etc. or a POW camp).
A person is hors de combat if:
a) he is in the power of an adverse Party;
b) he clearly expresses an intention to surrender; or
c) he has been rendered unconscious or is otherwise incapacitated by wounds or sickness, and therefore is incapable of defending himself; provided that in any of these cases he abstains from any hostile act and does not attempt to escape.
As for "double tap" that is when you make the decision that a target requires two hits, in advance. That doesn't apply here.
And here's my final comment.
I understand how Trumplicans and their blood lust work, but JESUS CHRIST, its people floating in the water, completely defenseless. That is not a 'great' America BY ANY STANDARD. And if somehow the Pentagon's interpretation OKs it - then the Pentagon's interpretation is wrong as well.
JS;dr.
JS;dr
JS: it's TDS BS :dr
Actually, it is journalistic malpractice, as usual for this fool.
Double-Tap Warfare: Should President Obama Be Investigated for War Crimes?
Furthermore, this Note proposes that the United States and the appropriate legal bodies are legally and morally required to investigate the use of double-tap drone strikes to determine if war crimes have been committed.
Samuel Alexander, Double-Tap Warfare: Should President Obama Be Investigated for War Crimes?, 69 Fla. L. Rev. 261 (2017).
Available at: https://scholarship.law.ufl.edu/flr/vol69/iss1/7
These were on dry land where survivors potentially could be rescued, although not very readily.
We blew up entire weddings in Afghanistan but this is too much. Obama killed Americans. Biden killed an aid worker and his kids but this it too far. GFY.
How about: THEY WERE ALL TOO MUCH. Obama was wrong to murder Americans. Biden was wrong to murder the aid worker. Trump was wrong to murder the survivors.
They were all wrong.
Is this too hard to say?
+1
+ 1
(If including the mouse in my pocket, then + 2 ! The moose won't fit into my pocket, sad to say.)
"Is this too hard to say?"
Unfortunately it is, because binary thinking is all MAGA knows - they simply can't conceive of complexity, nuance, and more than one outcome.
Exactly the same disease they share with their demented siblings - Progressives.
It’s funny to watch a proven moron, such as yourself, pontificate about how everyone who supports Trump is stupid.
Yet you’re one of the dumbest people here.
Same argument sarc uses. Sarc sock confirmed. Also when he said we should have listened to sarc.
everyone who supports Trump is stupid.
Not everyone. Just people like you.
Funny, I’m a lot smarter than you are. As are pretty much everyone else who supports Trump that comments here. You’re just angry that your fat ass gets a beat down here every day.
And you do showcase your stupidity here. Not smart enough to ever win an argument with Jesse, Not even smart enough to conceal your obvious advocacy for pedophilia.
Hell, you can’t even keep bears out of trunks.
Its easy enough to prove us wrong.
"All supporters of Trump are ignorant or stupid or evil"
Now all you have to do is find one example that proves us wrong. We'll wait.
Trump didn’t ‘murder the survivors. They were casualties in a strike against Venezuelan state sponsored narcoterrorists. Despite all your dishonest protestations to the contrary.
And why would anyone believe what your fat ass has to say? You were outed as a ChiCom asset.
If a plane crashes on the border beteen the US and Canada, where do you burry the survivors?
In my back yard
Trump didn’t ‘murder the survivors.
Technically true. It was the poor grunt who pressed the button on the missile who committed the physical act of murder. But it is Trump and Hegseth who bear the moral guilt for the crime.
They were casualties in a strike against Venezuelan state sponsored narcoterrorists.
"Narcoterrorists"? If the government of Venezuela is committing state-sponsored acts of terrorism against the United States, wouldn't that be a slam-dunk case for a declaration of war? Make the case to Congress and have them declare war. Do that and you'll have my support.
Trump doesn’t need to declare war for this, so why should he? And don’t bring up morals, as you do that any. Nor are your specious faux emotional arguments compelling.
You just don’t like the (R) that comes after his name, and you hate him in particular. Plus. Now we know that you’re some kind of shill for China. Just like your drunken pal Sarc.
Make the case to Congress and have them declare war.
That will never happen again. That's not how this works in the modern world. Things just move too fast these days. When under attack, we do not have time for Congress to put on powdered wigs, hold a debate and a vote, and write out a Declaration of War on parchment, roll it up and put it on a clipper ship bound for a foreign adversary. If Congress wants to stop a military action, they can always do so by voting to deny funding.
We've been under attack for 60 years from "narco terrorists" How many years are necessary to 'declare war'?
Trump's been in office for 10 Months or so. How long after Dec. 7th did it take for Congress to declare war?
Your argument falls flat
Congress will never again "declare war". Get back to me if that happens in our lifetimes and I'll admit I was wrong.
+1
Lol. I was thinking more of the Democrats losing their shit over stuff all the Presidents, including theirs, do. If this administration wanted to stop drug boats they'd end drug prohibition.
We need a source on the record to make this accusation credible. Based on the Source(WaPo), this accusation will dismissed as 'fake news' unless the source comes forward with statement on the record or a copy of the video. Without that, this accusation is going nowhere. That's what happens when meida outlets spend years pissing away their credibility.
WaPo is owned by Trump lover Jeff Bezos.
Dumb motherfucker right here.
Charlie is a spectacular idiot.
Bezos is a democrat megadonor and one of your overlords.
Thank you. Everyone's going back and forth while not asking the real question: Did this actually happen? Because if it did, there would be huge numbers of people involved. Naval orders don't come straight from the cabinet. They go through numerous layers. Then an entire crew works together to aim and fire a shot.
If it's real, why are we hearing such vague descriptions rather than the mountain of data that would come through?
Instead, the rumor is assumed true and then condemned.
No, because it is alleged. It means nothing, JS-putz. Go back to MSNBC
To TDS-addled steaming piles of shit like Sullum, it's just fine so long as Sullum can make up lies about Trump.
Sullum, asswipe? Fuck off and die.
So this is two now (or maybe more, not really counting).
Am I wrong? Seriously, am I just being myopic? But...
It seems like when it comes to Reason magazine, whatever the magazine's arguments within, they seem to very much to want to talk about the things Democrats want to talk about (like the possibility that Hegseth is going full on Tamerlane), and seem to very much not want to talk about things Democrats are desperately trying to avoid (like the State of Minnesota defrauding billions of dollars from the Federal Government to send to Somalia). Even if you are striking libertarian chords in the things you do write, isn't that lack of balanced coverage a bit odd. Welfare fraud is libertarian catnip after all.
Reason has a long history of pushing democrat narratives, even if false.
Jesse has a long history of pushing MAGA narratives, especially when false.
Do you think it was appropriate reporting for Sullum to cite The Former JAGs Working Group?
Which ones were false? Your claims are not enough, as you are both stupid, and a proven liar.
The Average Dude (Who's Dumber Than a Bag of Rocks) has a long history of proving he is a lying pile of TDS-addled steaming lefty shit.
Fuck off and die, asswipe.
(like the State of Minnesota defrauding billions of dollars from the Federal Government to send to Somalia)
I love how this is taken as a given. The Feeding Our Future funds didn't go to Somalia. They went to Kenya.
https://minnesotareformer.com/2025/11/25/right-wing-reporting-on-somali-money-going-to-al-shabaab-is-sloppy/
Furthermore, the right-wing "reporting" on this has been shameful. It's just race-baiting at this point. What did Chris Rufo do, after claiming that Minnesota Somali-Americans were sending cash to Somali terrorists? He demanded that ALL of the Somalis on TPS be sent home. Even the ones who didn't commit any fraud at all. The "welfare fraud" story is only the hook to push the "inferior people" narrative. So yes, welfare fraud is a libertarian concern. Collective judgment of an entire ethnicity based on the actions of a few, isn't.
So, good for Reason for not falling for the race-baiting.
Do you think it was appropriate reporting for Sullum to cite The Former JAGs Working Group?
A political group and jeff continued to claim he doesn't believe in a deep state. Yet time and time again he demands we listen to unelected democrats who worked for government.
The fact that you attempted to so drastically change the subject, demonstrates that everything I wrote above is accurate and embarrassing to you so you are desperate to talk about literally anything else.
Tell us, do you think Somalis are inferior to Americans?
shadydave 4 hours ago
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So this is two now (or maybe more, not really counting).
Am I wrong? Seriously, am I just being myopic? But...
It seems like when it comes to Reason magazine, whatever the magazine's arguments within, they seem to very much to want to talk about the things Democrats want to talk about"
This was the beginning of the comment you responded to, Lying Jeffy. The Former JAGs Working Group is cited by Sullum in this article, and every other left wing source I've seen on this subject. It's not changing the subject, it is the subject.
So Lying Jeffy, in this here comment section in the article where Sullum cited them, do you think it was appropriate reporting for Sullum to cite The Former JAGs Working Group?
Their culture is certainly inferior. Why else do you think Somalia is Somalia? Id you believe its so great, then you should move there.
do you think Somalis are inferior to Americans?
Yes. The condition of their country proves that.
How about Jasmine Crocket making an absolute ass out of herself by trying to tie a Cabinet member to Epstein, only to essentially commit slander? Or the general lack of curiosity in regards to the files now that it’s been shown that Epstein hated Trump so much?
Both of those have more concrete facts than this story.
blowing apart survivors
Actually, if they were in the water, it was probably the compression shock wave that killed them. Obviously, their hair and eyelashes were probably removed and ears and fingers may've detached, but their bodies in the water were likely largely in tact.
Like fishing with dynamite doesn't blow apart all the fish, it just pulverizes and ruptures their internal organs.
IF there actually was an order using that language. Maybe. But the thugs in the boats are not in uniform. No nation claims them as part of any military unit. They are hiding their identities. They are therefore NOT protected under the Geneva Convention. They are, in fact, criminal elements carrying out lethal criminal acts in international waters. They do not meet the formal requirements for protection under ANY international code of conduct.
They are protected as civilians. They are not attacking the US or any other nation.
Fuck off commie scum.
Wrong! Dumbass!
You’re just a ChiCom asset anyway.
Drug smugglers are considered pirates and are legal targets. We can discuss whether its wise, but that takes less than a minute to look up.
They are working with the Venezuelan regime to engage in chemical warfare against Americans. We must defend ourselves.
"Both the giving and the execution of these orders" would "constitute war crimes, murder, or both," the Former JAGs Working Group, which consists of lawyers who previously served in the military, said on Saturday.”
Hey grok (I also asked Brave, gave a similar answer), who are the members of The Former JAGS Working Group?
“The Former JAGs Working Group (where "JAGs" refers to former Judge Advocates General, i.e., retired U.S. military lawyers) is a coalition of anonymous former military legal advisers formed in February 2025. It was established in response to Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth's dismissal of the Army's Judge Advocate General (Lt. Gen. Joseph B. Berger III) and the Air Force's Judge Advocate General (Lt. Gen. Charles Plummer), which the group described as part of a broader "systematic dismantling of the military’s legal guardrails."
militarytimes.com
The group has issued public statements on topics like the legality of Pentagon operations and investigations into lawmakers, but it does not publicly disclose the names, number, or specific identities of its members.”
Sullum is a propagandist hack.
Lmao.
Hey grok, Who funds the former jags working group?
The Former JAGs Working Group operates as a project hosted by the Government Accountability Project (GAP), a nonprofit organization focused on whistleblower advocacy and government transparency. GAP, in turn, receives its funding from a variety of progressive philanthropic foundations and donors, including the Rockefeller Family Fund (a long-standing supporter since the 1970s) and the Open Society Foundations (which has provided multiple grants, as documented in GAP's annual reports).
So it’s a front group for Neo Marxists.
The point Senator and retired Navy Captain Mark Kelly and the other members of Congress made and continue to make, is that nothing removes the legal and moral responsibility of every servicemember to refuse to follow a "manifestly unlawful order" (term used in the Uniform Code of Military Justice) at any rank or grade.
During my USAF military career—from shaven-head Airman Basic 'til Senior Master Sergeant retirement 21 years later—bull sessions around the obligation to refuse illegal orders were common. When the question came up in the Law of War section of Senior NCO Academy (nine-week, in-residence, Professional Military Education (yes, even we slob enlisted received career-long mandatory PME), my Hungarian instructor answered "Penzon"—his pronunciation of and shorthand for "depends on the specific circumstances."
Our seminar group went on to discuss specific instances laid out in the DOD Law of War Manual, including this one:
Pete Hegseth, our unqualified, dick-wagging kill-them-all 'War Secretary,' and Admiral Frank M. “Mitch” Bradley, his 4-star, just-following-orders, SOCOM commander, may be in trouble—the second more than the first.
SECDEF Hegseth, as the superior officer giving the original unlawful orders, might find a way to ‘get off on a technicality’ in a way similar to Capt. Ernest Medina’s successful defense in the Vietnam My Lai Massacre court martials. Paraphrased, Medina said ‘When I told Lt. Calley the village was infested by Viet Cong and to kill them all, he knew I meant the Viet Cong, not every man, woman and child in the village!’
That does put ADM Mitch Bradley (four-star SOCOM commander) loosely in the role of the not very bright, poor-performing officer, Lt. William Calley, whose court martial defense was essentially ‘The Captain was my boss. He told me to kill them all. I followed his orders. I’d do it again.’ He was convicted of killing 22 noncombatants. Counts differ, but he and of the 100 soldiers under his command killed 300-500 villagers. Many of the soldiers denied taking part in the killing, others received immunity for their testimony, but none other than Calley were charged.
So, ADM Bradley might say, 'the Secretary of War is my superior officer. He told me to blow up the boats and kill the smugglers. I followed his orders. And, unlike Senator Kelly, he could be called back from retirement after the Venezuela War, to face court martial and be convicted of not refusing to follow manifestly unlawful orders.
That certainly includes both the original order for Seal Team Six to conduct nonjudicial summary executions of civilians, and to then kill shipwrecked survivors.
“During my USAF military career—from shaven-head Airman Basic 'til Senior Master Sergeant retirement 21 years later”
Believable!
“Pete Hegseth, our unqualified, dick-wagging kill-them-all 'War Secretary,' and Admiral Frank M. “Mitch” Bradley, his 4-star, just-following-orders, SOCOM commander”
Even more so!
You’re either a liar or a traitor participating in a color revolution. Either way, fuck off.
Leftists always have jobs they pontificate on. Always. Each one has worked in every industry.
I mean, it's so disrespectful to talk trash about our Beloved Secretary of War, isn't it?
Tell us, do you think the nation would be a better place if more people served in the military?
I didn't say anything about disrespect Lying Jeffy.
Why do you lie so much?
He’s ChiCom traitor filth.
Thanks Rachel.
And yet Mr. Kelly could not articulate what order was unlawful in any of the many interviews and talk shows he did over the last week.
Weird.
How do you say that in Chinese?
>—bull sessions around the obligation to refuse illegal orders were common
No they weren't.
You never talked about it unless there was a training.
JFC you sound like Tim Walz?
The question of what should be done to naval officers who shoot and throw grenades into life rafts carrying survivors of ships that they have sunk was resolved by a British Naval court in 1945 :
It cannot greatly comfort those responsible for executing Hegseth's rules of engagement in operation Southern Trident that the final words spoken in judgement by the Hamburg tribunal were :
"And may God have mercy on your souls."
Here's a brief account:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-2Nf10K1vg&t=1220s
“The question of what should be done to naval officers who shoot and throw grenades into life rafts carrying survivors”
Nobody’s asking that question.
Fuck off and die, shitstain and take you fake web site with you.
British naval court huh? Are you just reposting retarded reddit tskes? We're they in life rafts? Rescuers or military in boats?
All your post proves is youre a retarded propagandists who cant even take 5s to think before posting.
Is there a point to your Marxist collaborator ravings?
MAGAs are sick fucks.
https://x.com/AccountableGOP/status/1995649146741739985
Fuck off commie scum.
谢谢, slimy pile of TDS-addled lying pile of steaming lefty shit.
Megyn Kelly on alleged war crimes: "I really do kind of not only wanna see them killed in the water, whether they're on the boat or in the water, but I'd really like to see them suffer. I would like Trump and Hegseth to make it last a long time so they lose a limb and bleed out."
(Molly's link.) Good Golly, Miss Molly! MeThinks ye be correct; MAGA-maggots ARE sick fucks!
Why is your account from China?
Well, the,Administration just released the video, and guess what? First shot incinerated the boat. There was not second shot, because, for one thing, there was nothing left to shoot at.
What we did learn was that the WaPo and its reporters were lying through their teeth. There were no two sources. There wasn’t even one - because what they supposedly said happened - didn’t.
Did you really think that their ridiculous account could be reality? It read like bad democrat fam fiction.
Their party has got to go.
Unless it was a yacht, the idea that they survived the first strike but that the second vaporized them is pretty incredulous to begin with.
Do you have a link to the revelation? I'm having a hard time finding anything through the first story
Bruce has a long-demonstrated history of credulity though faith in The Gateway Pundit as irrefutable MAGA Scripture.
So if there was nothing left to shoot at why is the Trump Administration throwing Admiral Bradley under the bus saying he ordered the second strike, not Hegseth?
Because the good Admiral ordered 'no quarter' - which is what they said the Admiral did.
Bruce, will take Hegseth's words a few hours ago that there was a second strike?
So, he “didn’t stick around”
Lots of service members have disliked Hegseth from the beginning but want to know who now has an especially furnace-hot hate? The entire Armed Forces special ops community (especially SEALs) for being a REMF throwing their guy (career SEAL) under the speeding go-fast boat.
Beyond demonstrating a complete misunderstanding of the "fog of war" metaphor, Hegseth is trying to be the My Lai Massacre's Capt. Medina, by implying ADM Bradley is akin to Lt. William Calley, whose unsuccessful court martial defense was essentially ‘The Capt. was my boss. He told me to kill them all. I followed his orders. I’d do it again.’
You'd be more credible here if you tried to do more than parrot MAGAnistan daily talking points.
We spent 8 years with Obama 'double-tapping' and you ignored it.
*Now* it is a war crime.
The job of the military is to kill people and break things. In Afghanistan and Iraq, we would hit a target with a drone but not get everyone. Some would flee and, if we could conduct a secondary strike, we got them too. Attacks are not limited to the initial strike; the bad guys don’t get to call, “Time out.” The militants in Iraq were technically “civilians” as were the narcos in the boats but both were killing Americans as part of their jobs. We just killed them back. Why, if it happens at sea, is it any different than when it happens on land?
Well...
If you want to read it yourself, it's on page 1088:
https://media.defense.gov/2023/Jul/31/2003271432/-1/-1/0/DOD-LAW-OF-WAR-MANUAL-JUNE-2015-UPDATED-JULY%202023.PDF