Is Gay Marriage Really Under Threat at the Supreme Court?
Asking SCOTUS to hear a case is not the same thing as convincing SCOTUS to hear a case.

Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton delivered some stark words of warning this week about the prospects of same-sex marriage surviving over the long term as a constitutional right. "The Supreme Court will hear a case about gay marriage," Clinton said. "My prediction is they will do to gay marriage what they did to abortion."
Is Clinton right to worry? A quick glance at some recent breaking news headlines might lead you to think that she is. "Supreme Court formally asked to overturn landmark same-sex ruling," reported ABC News. "SCOTUS has been asked to overturn same-sex marriage," observed USA Today.
But the headlines only told part of the story.
You’re reading Injustice System from Damon Root and Reason. Get more of Damon’s commentary on constitutional law and American history.
Yes, the U.S. Supreme Court was recently asked to revisit its 2015 decision in Obergefell v. Hodges, which held that "the right of same-sex couples to marry…is part of the liberty promised by the Fourteenth Amendment." The person who did the asking is Kim Davis, the former Kentucky county clerk who earned national headlines when she refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Davis has since been fighting an uphill legal battle to overturn Obergefell. Having recently lost before the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit, she is now trying to persuade the high court to take up her case on appeal.
The odds are not exactly in Davis' favor. The Supreme Court is "formally asked" to hear thousands of new cases each term, yet the justices only agree to hear a small fraction of them. And most of the thousands of parties seeking such review are turned away by the Supreme Court without receiving so much as a single word of explanation.
To request review by the Supreme Court, in other words, is definitely not the same thing as obtaining review by the Supreme Court. The chances are good that the petition for review in Davis v. Ermold will be denied, just like those thousands of other petitions are denied by the justices every term.
However, it is also true that the Supreme Court does sometimes agree to hear a case for the express purpose of reconsidering one of its own precedents, such as when the Court took up Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization (2022) and used it as a vehicle for overturning Roe v. Wade (1973) and eliminating the constitutional right to obtain an abortion.
That's the thing about precedent at the Supreme Court. It matters—until it doesn't.
So, the real question to ponder is whether the requisite five votes exist on the Supreme Court right now to overturn Obergefell. Absent the magic number of five, Davis will never succeed in making Davis the next Dobbs.
I don't think there are five such votes at the present. If I had to guess, I would say that only Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito, and perhaps also Neil Gorsuch, could be counted on to vote in favor of that hugely controversial result at this time.
But we won't know for sure until the Supreme Court returns in a few weeks from its summer break. Until then, you too may guess away.
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If two dudes want to get together, start kissing, taking each other’s clothes off, perhaps rubbing their cocks against each other, then proceed to where one of the guy’s erect cock is pushed into the rectum of the other guy. Then removed. Pushed in again. Removed. Pushed in yet again then pulled out and continued to be done until the top ejaculates inside the anus of the bottom or perhaps he pulls out and finishes on the bottom’s back, belly, or in the mouth that should be ok. But I’m not sure that is marriage.
Get the state out of regulating “marriage.”
Marriage is primarily a religious institution. It may have made sense for the state to recognize these sacred unions in the past, when women were essentially the property of their husbands, but we've moved beyond that as a society. In the modern world there is no place for the state in sacred unions.
This is an area where libertarians are as destructively subversive of civil society as the most radical Marxist, in deciding that institutions supporting family formation and cohesion are "outdated".
Why should the state support family formation and cohesion? There are more representative institutions that can provide this function, such as churches, social clubs, communes, etc. Members of those organizations can request their members to abide certain rules, like marriage contracts, abstinence pledges, etc. without the harmful interference of the government. Allowing the state to dictate the terms of marriage is what led to its perversion in the first place. Surely you see that.
Why? Because the family is the basis of civil society and how society renews itself.
Even if that is true, that is not an argument to use the power of government to enforce a specific definition of family upon everyone. Marriage is a social contract between two people and government has no business there.
What societal purpose does marriage as merely a contract between two generic people serve?
Would marriage exist at all if that was the real definition of a marriage?
Taxes and insurance
Why should the state support family formation and cohesion?
This is backwards. Libertarians don't attack or aren't intrinsically opposed to social cohesion. If hippies out west somewhere want to set up a commune, redistribute their own wealth, expel Jews from their property or group and even elect a Führer named Adolph it's not in any way a libertarian precept, and is exceedingly oxymoronic to deny them any of that by force.
Life, Liberty, Happiness, Free Association are among the self-evident truths provided by a creator to a free people. People opposed are intrinsically not libertarians. Anarchy is the best but least stable and reliable outcome.
This is the usual statist/subversive Marxist/sophist dilemma. The construing or conflation of passive vs. active or is vs. ought. It's possible for a state or a people to recognize something like family units and biological cohesion without formally endorsing it or compelling its endorsement from others. The recognition that biological parents are more intrinsically invested in their offspring and thus more supportive of them across the animal kingdom, is not compelling everyone to have children or support people who do, moreover, the state legally intervening disproportionately but objectively when non-parents abuse their non-biological children more often is not a policy endorsement of marriage or the nuclear family even if that's the natural effect or product.
I heard recently about a group that bought up some land out west and is developing it with exclusively white protestant members. This would be an interesting story to cover.
Plymouth Rock, 2.0?
Desiring a smaller state is somehow statist or Marxist? Can you explain where Karl Marx advocated for a less expansive state?
Try to make it make sense.
Legal marriage is an economic protection for both the lower earning spouse and any children. It certainly is in the state's and the peoples' best interest. Look how badly things have gone for segments of society where 70% of kids are born to unwed mothers.
You're arguing in favor of gay marriage. 300,000 kids are raised in gay marriages.
Two choices...
(a) Gay marriage is not allowed: Gay partners just live together, but neither has a legal responsibility to the other. If breadwinner gets upset with the other they just kick the partner out, leaving the "stay at home" partner destitute and on public aid.
(b) Gay marriage is allowed: Gay partners get married and have legal responsibilities to each other. The breadwinner gets upset but realizes that if they stomp out they will end up paying some alimony and splitting the assets (including the hideous Victorian Couch) so they stay and work things out.
Which seems more like "family formation"?
Perhaps you envision that somehow gays will "ungay" themselves if they can't get married? Of course not, but unless their platonic opposite sex "spouse" is in on the game of a sham marriage, what happens to the obligatory 2.1 kids that each couple is "supposed to have" (after all, "families" and all that) when the spouse figures out that their partner is gay and that those "business trips" were anything but?
No. Marriage is a pre-existing institution that religions had to accommodate or work around.
Get the state out of regulating “marriage.”
*or*
Redefine "marriage" as so broad and diffuse that it's not really broad or distinct from any other social contract. Husband, wife, and au pair are "married" fine. All the members of a Crossfit 'box' are 'married', fine, all the female and male performers contractually employed by the same porn studio are 'married', fine.
This or various versions and approximations of this were on the table at the time. They were rejected in favor of the "2 men = 1 man + 1 woman" stupidity.
Get the state out of it. Let the people enter into a contract and have whatever religious festivity they want. Jesse nails it below.
Eliminate the income tax so “but can’t file jointly” argument is gone.
Get rid of income tax to void filing jointly? Sure. Get rid of spousal privilege? How about expanding it to domestic cohabitant privilege? Explicit power of attorney? Meh, even explicit wills within family members are notoriously contestable.
There's more than one way to wind up with more freedom and/or more social order in the elimination/reconstruction of marriage. What we've got now ain't it.
Get rid of income tax.
Also, it would resolve that topic of discussion.
That'd be silly. Family law was arrived at to solve practical legal problems in society that unfortunately couldn't be resolved by the common law of individual adults alone. It'd be really dumb to outright ditch that category of law just because it still has some problems. Primarily it's for the children — really.
And a good graphic morning to you, Chumby.
That was the dialed back version. You are welcome.
You must fantasize about it a lot.
I work at a dog rescue that specializes in akitas. Some arrive with wild tails of owners practicing buggery. Those unhappy with that can turn the other cheek.
Eew, with an extra serving of ick.
Your take on even hetero sex is not to be read before breakfast.
Nothing penetrative before 11 am? Noted.
Its the same tactic as describing in depth a late term abortion. It makes it impossible to unsee (with the minds eye) what's being discussed and forces the issue into stark relief."
The question becomes... why are these acts considered marriage and\or worthy of special benefits? What differentiates this kind of union with the heterosexual marriage.... remembering there are only so many orphans you can sacrifice to the grooming state.
Well, I suppose there is nothing to stop a straight, married couple from only doing ass-sex.
De rigeuer (now and then), there's nothing to stop two (or more) mixed-sex married couples from engaging in all manner of buggery under the same/previous legal protection.
That’s almost SugarFree levels of graphic.
Well done.
I agree. I’m not for gay marriage, but I’m much more against marriage licensing which was an invented by early 20th century progressive democrats to discourage race mixing.
I don't care why marriage licensing was invented. What matters is that government is minimally intrusive. As long as it's two competent, unrelated adults who want the license, give it to them. Government has zero business judging anyone's life.
The state is heavily invested in marriage. Our entire tax system is built around it, reflecting the contractual nature of marriage. I'm not sure being more permissive is the same thing as "regulating." And, you've obviously watched a disturbing amount of gay porn.
It's not marriage. It's gay sex. Marriage is two adults of sound mind making a lifetime commitment. They could be a man and a woman, two men or two women. It's not the state's job to decide this.
""The Supreme Court will hear a case about gay marriage," Clinton said. "My prediction is they will do to gay marriage what they did to abortion.""
You mean remove the absurd judicial mandate requiring the recognition of gay "marriage" based on false equivalency and return the decision to the States?
The state has an interest in regulating the sexual relationships of same sex couples, why?
Power is an end, not a means.
If I throw a rock at a glass window, chances are the glass is gonna shatter. If I throw a rock at a brick wall the brick wall is gonna be ok. If pigs had wings chances are they would fly. If Clarence Thomas was white instead of black and said nigger he'd probably still be a supreme court justice. So let's calm town now shall we!
What was the point of that word salad?
Equally mystified.
I'm glad I'm not the only one. I didn't realize Kamala was a fan of Reason.
I’m particularly glad that these lovely children were here today to hear that speech. Not only was it authentic frontier gibberish, it expressed a courage little seen in this day and age.
Harrumph.
If democrats had brains they wouldn’t be democrats.
The state has no legit interest in regulating fucking. The state does perform legit services judicially in terms of family law, and for that it needs customary understandings of marriage matters. The scope of couplings that are eligible for marriage, and hence marriage law, needs to be limited to keep marriage law from swallowing individual liberty.
As far as I know, no state regulates fucking. And if you think that's all there is to marriage, I hope you're not married.
States DO regulate marriage, with rights of survivorship, special property ownership rights, and parental rights. I'd say that's important. But only states make marriage law. The federal government does not. So, what is the federal government, i.e. SCOTUS, doing butting into yet another thing that is none of its business.
Oh, but the rights of gay people shall not be abridged, right? Well, what about first cousins? Each state has its own laws in that regard. What about how their rights are abridged?
You can't think rationally and explain our idiot 'leaders' all at the same time.
Mickey Rat asked, amphibolously, about "sexual relationships", so I eliminated the meanings one at a time.
With the Respect For Marriage Act, all states are required to honor marriage licenses from other states. This means that if gay marriage goes away in say Florida, couples can simply go north to get married, come back to Florida with their licenses and they will have to be recognized.
You ask why the state has an interest in regulating the sexual relationships of same sex couples. I don't think that they have any more reason to regulate the relationships of same sex couples than they do of opposite sex couples.
Get government out of the marriage business. Non firm contracts treated as firm contracts that can be changed on legislative or judicial whim is wrong. Force partners to be explicit in the terms of their marriage and dissolution at the outset.
The marriage contract used to be 'firm' when people respected the institution and invested their self worth in keeping the institution strong [keeping their own marriage strong] due to the cultural deference to, and general non-confused understanding of the thing. People had skin in the game. Now the concept has been so degraded your question is valid on a secular level. Now the various levels of state stand for nothing (morality and values-wise) so the imprimatur of the state also adds nothing to the institution other than more state give-a-ways. Mind you, it still does incentivize such contracts in as much as they are beneficial in a legally enforceable way. Its just that it now incentivizes a meaningless union when viewed by the justifications for such contracts by the state.
(was that incoherently enough stated... its more stream of consciousness... my apologies)
I suspect the Supreme Court isn't going to revisit Obergefell v. Hodges. You would have to prove that same-sex couples marrying harms anyone, and there is no evidence of that. Fact is, marriage equality for same-sex couples shouldn't have taken as long as it did. There was never any constitutional justification for denying law-abiding, taxpaying Gay couples the same right to marry that Straight couples have always taken for granted. What more legal reasoning do you need?
Churches have never been forced to provide weddings for anyone, and it's a moot point anyway, since the legal benefits of marriage don't come from the church, they come from the federal government. Procreation and parenting are irrelevant also, since couples do not need to marry to make babies, nor is the ability or even desire to make babies a prerequisite for a marriage license.
According to the Government Accountability Office (GAO) there are 1,138 legal protections, regulations, and responsibilities that pertain specifically to married couples. Much of this has to do with Social Security, inheritance, healthcare, etc. If the government wanted to get out of the marriage business altogether, it would be a legal quagmire.
Some would also suggest that marriage should be left up to individual states, but the point would be moot since a marriage honored in one state is honored across state lines. Marriage is fundamentally a contractual agreement between two adults. Any couple can fly off to Las Vegas for the weekend, get married by an Elvis impersonator, and that marriage is automatically honored back home, thanks to the "Full Faith and Credit" clause.
Maybe I’m being overly optimistic, but I don’t think SCOTUS will reconsider the issue. Frankly, they wouldn’t DARE.
They dared when they made their first foray into the issue on a weak or non-existent basis. It was done through judicialeans, not legislative, on weak grounds.
Weak or non-existant basis? That's an interesting way to say "I want the government to regulate my private life". You might like National Review more than Reason because you're not a libertarian.
If it gets tossed, progressives will look to fill the scotus with sympathetic justices. In other words, more judge packing.
With more legislators in judicial clothing, like Sotomayor.
She is just one of the two remaining from the majority in Obergefell.
Like that's not already their rallying cry every time they don't get their way?
At this point, Court packing is a sure thing as soon as the Democrats have a President of their own party, and enough of a majority to survive a few defections. The only thing that would stop it would be a constitutional amendment fixing the size of the Court, and the Republicans aren't proactive enough to even TRY to get such an amendment. Let alone play the sort of hardball, "If you don't agree to the amendment, we do it first!" that would be necessary to get Democrats to go along with it.
Just get rid of the democrat party. There is more than enough justification to label it a domestic terror organization now that many of them are engaged in ongoing open rebellion.
"Fact is, marriage equality for same-sex couples shouldn't have taken as long as it did."
It should not exist at all, as same sex relationships are not equivalent to opposite sex relationships in importance to society. To suggest that they are, means ignoring reproductive capacity entirely.
What is the argument that society has an interest in regulating same-sex relationships?
If you cannot answer that question then the assertion that "equal treatment" applies goes out the window.
So, should reproductive capacity have to be proven before a marriage license is issued? Should there be a time limit to perform? No baby in 10 years, the marriage is annulled? What is the argument that society has an interest in regulating childless heterosexual relationships?
That could be done. It does not have to be.
It is not equivalent to the argument that same sex relationships must be included as marriages.
You just said that reproduction is what justifies state involvement in couples' relationships. Apparently you're not interested in defending that.
Not at all. You are just not understanding.
No, I understand. You are declining to defend your inconsistent position. That's fine.
I am saying the state does not have to treat possibly infertile heterosexual couples as fertile ones. That it does is not a contradiction.
You are claiming that the must treat infertile by definition same sex couples as potentially fertile opposite sex couples. You have not provided a rational reason for that. Not that it can choose to do so, but it MUST.
Historically, infertility has been a ground to annul marriages. There was a good review of the history of family law in a Canadian appeals opinion on same-sex marriage around the turn of the century, in which this was among many facts brought out in the analysis.
Crazy to me that "turn of the century" now is 2000 instead of 1900.
There are a lot of benefits in marriage that are properly benefits for raising kids. Move those benefits fully to dependents and toss every marriage to an equal civil union for legal/contract purposes to return marriage to the church.
^THIS^
Importance to society?
Who cares? I didn't know the pursuit of happiness relied on that.
The argument that society has an interest in legally defining marriage is simple: Common law generally treats individuals as individuals; this is a good thing by libertarians. Exceptions have been made for good purposes in corporate law and family law. Unfortunately the forms of individual law and corporate law have been inadequate for the sticky issues that result primarily from children's being born into families, hence family law. Being exceptions to rules regarding individual liberty, however, it is best to limit family law to those cases where it is legitimately called for. The limitation should be done without, however, itself burdening individual liberty and privacy. Therefore a marriage should not be recognized if it's obvious the couple can't biologically bear children, such as if they're of the same sex, but the law should not so pry as to demand betrothal entail proof of being pre-menopausal. We could also not pry as to whether menarche has occurred yet, but that's already taken care of by general considerations of legal agency vis-a-vis youth.
The customary understanding of marriage requires opposite sexes, comporting with the common law. Customary understanding does not, however, require monogamy, though polygamy makes family law trickier.
There's nothing to stop groups of people from availing themselves of corporate law. They just shouldn't call a corporation a marriage unless it qualifies by customary understanding based on the very particular purposes of marriage.
If human babies start being made by means other than the usually understood gestation, then family law may not be appropriate to cover it, and it's a new ball game. We will have dependent minors without easily-found families.
"Importance to society" is not a proper metric for government interference in anything. Period. Full stop.
"Importance to society" is not a proper metric for government interference in anything. Period. Full stop.
Yeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeesssssssssssssssssssss
"It should not exist at all, as same sex relationships are not equivalent to opposite sex relationships in importance to society. To suggest that they are, means ignoring reproductive capacity entirely."
Your argument is moot because about half of babies are born OUTSIDE of marriage. Somehow, some way, the human race managed to survive for thousands of years prior to the advent of civil marriage.
If marriage were about procreation, infertile couples would be barred from marriage. Couples above the fertility age would also be barred. You're grasping at straws to justify your statist, cocksucking Big Government views.
You must have limited imagination if you can't think of how someone's interest might've been affected negatively by same-sex marriage in a subsequent divorce or 3rd-party benefit dispute.
Simply removing the Federal law and putting the control back in the State hands like was done with Roe V Wade is the alleged fear here.
Killary would feign concern for folks living in Alabama when Alabama stops recognizing same sex marriages with the same fervor it used to make abortions after 6 weeks illegal.
It seems today the marriage certificate is more of a convenience and a control for society in relation to taxes, insurance, parental authority and guardianship.
But women are still not respected as the decision maker in many parts of the country. The Dr speaking to the husband about the woman's health while she stands there or when she wants to buy a car still occurs.
Confusion sets in when it's two men as to who to talk to and when it's two women the profit margins are raised and it is asked if the man will be showing up soon.
And de facto (medical) Power of Attorney.
I fully support the right of gays to lose half their stuff in divorce.
I feel like we lost half our stuff adopting gay marriage and all the baggage it brought to the relationship and divorcing ourselves from it is the best way we can scrape some of it back.
Life seemed decidedly less "Fuck around with everybody behind your back, light your shit on fire on the lawn, *and* press charges against you." before gay marriage than it did after.
Like we all became a little more sarcasmic in the last 10 yrs.
Like we all became a little more sarcasmic in the last 10 yrs.
No need to insult everyone.
Drinking is actually down, so we became somehow less sarcasmic.
Cheers to that.
😉
I barely drink anymore. Wasn’t even a concerted effort. Just lost interest in regular drinking. Nowadays I might have 3-4 ounces of top shelf rum if my lumbago is acting up.
Obergefell was one of the first cases that made a mutable construct deemed immutable, sexual attraction. This led to the same bullshit in Dobbs regarding gender as an immutable construct.
Both need to be overturned.
Are you able to change which sex you're attracted to at will? If so, you should be studied--you're unique.
The permutations of queer gender theory have irreparably undermined the immutability of sexual attraction for LGBTQ arguments.
Those "permutations" are irrelevant to the reality of human sexual orientation.
Those permutations are attempting to define what they see as the reality of human sexual orientation. And it contradicts the reasoning of Obergefell.
I don't care what they think.
Ah, the "I was programmed at birth to rape." defense. Bold strategy Cotton, let's see if it pays off for him.
Next you're gonna say, "There's a difference between controlling your underlying biological imperatives and controlling your actions."
Just call it legal civil union for any two adults and be done.
Just call it legal civil union for any two adults and be done.
Why two? If my wife carried the child and our au pair is the egg donor, why not 3? If 7 people pay the mortgage equally and each one takes a day of the week looking after the kids, why not 7? Corporations manage to draw up and even boiler plate contracts and survivorship across entire boards and continents.
2 is just a social construction of the biological egg/sperm male/female imperative. Once you reject that, why 2 other than to perpetuate the duplicity of "2 men = 1 woman + 1 man"?
Not even. The same shit stupid argument Vernon Derpner is making about it being fixed is the same shit stupid, self-contained "Kinsey says sexual attraction is a spectrum" sexual *orientation* argument he and others like him have and would make out of the other side of their face.
It's as stupid, dishonest, anti-individual, deterministic, pseudo-scientific, and, (if there weren't a sociopathic if not psychopathic lack of empathy or introspection; ) shameful. As much as Hitler asserting whites are the master race while Jesse Owens stands atop the podium at the Olympics in Berlin.
They are every inch the nihilist, narcissist, sociopathic bridge trolls that the rest of the BTQIA+ community strives to be more openly. They just use the state to force people to read books that support their ideology rather than using the state to burn books that oppose their ideology.
Are you able to lie and misrepresent a (lack of) scientific consensus to your own advantage? If so you should be ignored if not attacked because you're uninformative and sociopathic.
I mean Robby just did.
So yes?
Also more critical to the point, even if someone can't currently switch orientations any more than they could switch races, it's not SCOTUS or the FedGov's job to tell them one way or the other, much less conflict itself repeatedly with it being fixed in one legal conception but flexible in another.
If melanin-affirming care was dangerous and didn't work, there might be a case that the federal government has an obligation to protect people from medical malpractice but, until the trans rights movement and fabrications like Sam Brinton, the whole concept of lobotomize and/or castrate them (except in cases of molestation or rape, equally) went out the window 60 yrs. ago.
Even at the dangers of melanin-affirming care, the government has the ability to issue or even mandate sternly-worded statements about tanning beds, smoking, and cancer, but when it comes to homosexuality we get "Glory holes are an effective way to avoid the spread of COVID!"
Please quote from where he said that.
The best result is for the court to take the case and rule that marriage of any kind is not a place for any government.
Just because federal legislators were too lazy to craft proper tax regulations, and used "marriage" as a proxy for their intent is no reason to continue the farce.
Or at least that it is not something the federal government has anything to do with.
Hillary Clinton via MSM says....anything to stir up some progressive panic. They don't seem to have a lot else at this point.
A reversal of Obergefell would be a bigger gift to them than Jan 6 was.
Correct on both counts. Alarmism has been the left's only remaining argument the last few cycles, and nobody is really listening anymore. Unless the SC gives the left another Dobbs-shaped club to hit the Republicans with.
Dobbs, indeed; abortions have declined in those States that passed limitations on access to it, but I understand have generally increased in other States that allow/ promote it, along with medication induced abortions. Haven't seen anyone in media spotlight crying about not being able to get one, so it seems that haven't been able to find anyone who fits that role?
The other rallying cry for Dems these days seems to be that the Epstein files [which were largely dismissed when it suited them] are somehow "dividing the Republican Party" and Trump's followers...I don't believe they've quite realized that Party has largely died and been replaced with a populist one [at least for the time being].
It would be rather pathetic if I could somehow be moved to sympathy for them.
A reversal of Obergefell would be a bigger gift to them than Jan 6 was.
This is backhanded agreement with Clinton. Personally, I'm still waiting for the "Dobbs-shaped club" to land... anywhere.
What's that club gonna look like exactly? The AL Gov. and State legislature writing the right to gay IVF reproduction into their State Law? Gay IVF in AL for the motherfucking win, amiright?! Nothing says enduring legislative victory like the biological equivalent of mandating pi = 3.
There is no Individual 'right' to a government issued status symbol.
...because the status symbol in question isn't inherent.
"The Supreme Court will hear a case about gay marriage," Clinton said. "My prediction is they will do to gay marriage what they did to abortion."
Provide a correct ruling?
Bans on gay marriage are completely indefensible under 14A equal protection.
Ya know; like the ?right? to out-of jurisdiction (foreigner) US citizenship you leftards also like to cherry-pick from the 14A?
"[WE] are *entitled* to your things/nation because [WE] know how to manipulate, cherry-pick and deceive F'En everything that gets in our Selfish way!" /s
Selfish, Greedy, Self-Entitled Scam-Artists is all that resides in Leftard Mentalities.
It is not so much a "ban", rather than a contradiction in terms.
Same sex relationships do not meet the basic requirements to be a marriage.
How are same sex relationships equivalent to opposite sex ones? Why does the state have an interest in regulating same sex relationships?
Why does the State have an interest in regulating childless opposite-sex relationships?
It does not HAVE to. It chooses to because it is easier.
I see--you get to ask the questions, but you won't answer any.
That was an answer. I cannot help it if you refuse to understand it.
I understand deflection. And that it's boring.
You keep begging the question by presenting your conclusion as your premise. That is boring.
"NO. YOU!" *yawn*
Because they don't necessarily stay childless, and we wouldn't want to forbid people (unless they have a consistent record as child abusers) to have babies.
"Same sex relationships do not meet the basic requirements to be a marriage."
Nonsense. The government offers a voluntary, binding contract to two adults. Under what part of the Equal Protection Clause can it deny that contract to some adults? There's no mandate to have sex in a marriage, much less procreate.
No. The government offered a contract to male-female combinations of adults, based on the general fact that these are potential reproductive pairs. The courts come along and say same sex pairs must be treated as equivalent to male-female pairs. But what is the basis of that alleged equivalency? What is the interest of the state in regulating same-sex relationships?
"No. The government offered a contract to male-female combinations of adults, based on the general fact that these are potential reproductive pairs. The courts come along and say same sex pairs must be treated as equivalent to male-female pairs. But what is the basis of that alleged equivalency? What is the interest of the state in regulating same-sex relationships?"
Assumes facts not in evidence. What state(s) ask any question(s) about reproduction on their marriage license applications?
The basis is that they're adults, and the state cannot discriminate based on sex.
The state can discriminate based on sex where differences in sex create differences in outcome.
"The state can discriminate based on sex where differences in sex create differences in outcome."
Nonsense. I got snipped 20 years ago. I'm not procreating. The state cannot refuse a marriage license to me based on that, ergo the state cannot use reproductive status to deny a marriage license to any couple.
There is no different outcome, just your puritanical distaste for people who don't screw like you.
Because it's a particular type of contract that makes sense existing legally only under certain conditions.
You make the assertion, but you fail to list what you believe are the "requirements to be a marriage."
If it hinges on procreation, then you fail miserably. Procreation has never been a requirement to get married in the United States. Similarly, infertility is not generally sufficient grounds, alone, for a divorce.
There is no pledge or oath to procreate involved in the marriage application process. The state never denies marriage applications to geriatrics on the grounds of post-menopausal infertility. Women with medically documented tubal ligations or hysterectomies, or men with medically documented vasectomies, are not denied marriage certificates on the grounds of their infertility. The state never automatically nullifies marriages on the grounds that they failed to bear children.
Your assertion that the state does not have to allow childless heterosexual marriages, but chooses to out of laziness, is, itself, a patently lazy excuse. It's utter bullshit. The state doesn't deny childless heterosexual marriages because the state doesn't fucking care if the marriage results in children or not. (Hint: if the state cared, procreation would, actually, be a legal requirement of marriage.)
>>Clinton said. "My prediction is they will do to gay marriage what they did to abortion."
H walks into those traps just like Jeff lol
All of our rights are at risk with this court, and they will overturn Obergefell, but not in this case.
As they should. There is no 'inherent' right to government status symbols.
You want to start your own poopy butt-hole obsession church? Fine.
You don't need 'Guns' against others to do that.
And I assume you extend that to traditional marriage as well.
Absolutely. If the Tax-Code insists on using Status-Symbols for Tax-Favoritism then it should be decided by 'democracy' (Congresses right to lay tax). There is no inherent 'right' there to protect.
You fake "rights" are at risk with this court.
Actual rights will be protected.
Either there is a right to marry - in which case it shouldn't be restricted to opposite-sex partnerships - or there isn't, in which case the government should stay out of it. The one impermissible position given your argument is that opposite-sex partnerships have the right to marry but same-sex partnerships do not.
"...in which case it shouldn't be restricted to opposite-sex partnerships..."
Why? What is the reasoning behind that assertion? How are same sex relationships equivalent to opposite sex relationships?
For what reason does the state have to regulate same sex relationships as it does opposite sex relationships?
Because the state must treat men and women equally.
There is nothing in marriage that treats men and women unequally.
Telling a man that he may not marry a man, but a woman may, is treating men and women unequally.
Those relationships are not equal to a male-female relationship. What is your argument for how they are?
"Those relationships are not equal to a male-female relationship."
How, specifically, are they not?
Male-female relationships are capable of creating children. Male-male and female-female can not.
That's not how this works. You have to defend your own assertions..
I have explained my assertions. No one on your side seem to be willing or able to defend yours.
"Male-female relationships are capable of creating children. Male-male and female-female can not."
Sometimes, certainly not always. So it's your assertion because sometimes, maybe males and females might reproduce that the government can deny recognition of a legal contract to two women?
@Bill McNeal - "Sometimes"? It was is the biological way the species procreates. It is the norm. Two women cannot do that. You keep having to argue that in the most ridiculous way that procreation is unimportant and of secondary consideration, but cannot explain why such a contract should exist without it.
"@Bill McNeal - "Sometimes"? It was is the biological way the species procreates. It is the norm. Two women cannot do that. You keep having to argue that in the most ridiculous way that procreation is unimportant and of secondary consideration, but cannot explain why such a contract should exist without it."
Procreation doesn't require marriage. Procreation is not a mandate in a marriage.
The only ridiculous argument here (on a purportedly libertarian website) is that there's some sort of unwritten and unspoken rule that consenting adults can't enter into a government-sponsored legal contract unless they're capable of - by nature of their sex organs, not actual physical capabilities - procreating.
This is literally the worst, most swiss-cheese argument against SSM I've heard.
Male-female relationships are capable of creating children
So according to you, if one half of a male-female relationship is sterile, they should not be permitted to marry.
Again, government could do that. They do not have to.
Your side is saying government must treat a couple infertile with each other by definition the same as a fertile couple...for reasons.
My side is saying, if two adults want to get married to each other, let 'em. No further rationale needed than that.
Let them keep their definition of 'marriage' to/between themselves then.
They have no 'right' to force their definition onto the government.
Their is no 'right' there.
I don't think he's saying anything about the equality ("equivalence" is probably a better word there btw) of the relationships, but of the legal treatment of individuals.
Perhaps you need to update your ideas about what marriage is. It does seem to have changed, not just for gays. Loads of people have kids without getting married. Loads of people get married and don't have kids. Marriage just isn't used the way it used to be. And maybe that's a bad thing and things would be better if people saw marriage and relationships in a more traditional way. But I'm not sure we're getting that toothpaste back into the tube at this point.
This is the same retarded premise at the heart of dobbs. Retarded there too.
The same retarded premise used to force gynecologist and female only waxere to treat men.
The same premise that says men have to have insurance for gynos.
Did I mention this is retarded?gynecologist.
All premise Obergesfell did is treat a class of opposite sex to a certain condition. It has zero to do with secual differentiation. Each sex had the same required condition.
In as much as marriage is a religious institution I'd say there is no 'right' to marriage. It is a designation controlled by whichever religious organization believes in the rite. Just like there is no right to join a men's only club or to participate in the special Olympics.
Now, there should be an equal right to enter into contracts - and that is how the benefits the state confers to couples ... or "thruples" or whatever corruption of the initial idea is thrown about... that is how it should be managed. Benefits should be allotted according to strictly defined behaviors and not some general idea ... as the concept of marriage has become.
When marriage was understood in its simple and uncorrupted way I think it was justifiable - maybe not in a libertarian sense - after a fashion but when the word became so elastic as to become the clay from which progressives will ultimately achieve their societal goals, legal state provided and enforced benefits became nonsense.
This also points to why culture matters and why the destruction of the old (conservative) ways is so important to the progressives.
"Either there is a right to marry - in which case it shouldn't be restricted to opposite-sex partnerships - or there isn't"
If somebody must agree for it to be practiced, it is --- by default --- not a right.
Exactly
Not within the lifetimes of most people living today.
This decision was pure politics disguised as law. Nine people took away the ability of hundreds of millions of others to decide the issue for themselves. It's a bad ruling.
It doesn't matter if you are for homosexual marriage or against it. The court has no business AT ALL making political decisions.
^BINGO. As the status-symbol isn't an inherent right because it comes from 'government' not from the Individual. People should have a 'right' to issue their own definition of married but they don't have any-right to FORCE that definition onto everyone with 'Guns'.
It is literally exactly like Puritans obsession to cleanse the world of pornography only the counter-religion-of. The key is to keep the 'Guns' away from religion one way or the other. The USA was founded on Individual Liberty NOT 'Guns' that FORCE a personal opinion onto everyone else.
""The USA was founded on Individual Liberty ""
This would allow same sex marriages. The concept that other people can decide who can and cannot marry is against individual liberty.
+9000
Go 'marry' on your own 'marry' terms all you F'En want.
UR still not *entitled* to a government status-symbol.
If it is a government status-symbol how's that Liberty?
Is one entitled to be President?
The argument is just BS Self-Entitlement to what is NOT inherently theirs to have.
This decision was pure politics disguised as law. Nine people took away the ability of hundreds of millions of others to decide the issue for themselves.
Perhaps, but why should that group have the ability to deny to others a right which does not affect themselves? How are my rights being infringed if a gay couple want to marry?
Ask the "Bake that Cake" guy.
Which is precisely the consequence of made-up fake ?rights? that are actually entitlements.
The only result going on is destroying the actual 'rights' of others.
Forcing someone to provide a service is not the same as two people consenting to an action.
So let them consent on their own terms.
They still aren't *entitled* to a government status symbol.
You're confusing "rights" with "obligations".
There is no 'right' to be gay married by the State.
The State issues that certificate they have every right to determine what that certificate involves.
You want your gay-marriage certificate? Go make one and leave the State out of it. YOUR FORCING the State (i.e. 'democracy') to abide by your *entitlement* claim. There is no 'right' to a government status-symbol.
Ah, :I knew it was too good to last. Why dos the state have the right to determine which marriage it recognises? Because it has guns?
...because you're asking for a State Certificate.
If you want Poopy-hole-lovers anonymous certificate no one gives a sh*t.
Marriage isnt a right. It is a privilege.
Just stop shrike.
I agree completely, and I have no problem with gay marriage. It's not something for the federal courts to decide. And the basis of the decision was not good. At least they could have used privileges and immunities.
1. My guess is Thomas and Alito would hear the appeal but no-one else will. I suppose it's possible that Gorsuch joins them, but that still makes only three, when four are needed.
2. Kim Davis is a bigot and a hypocrite.
As mentioned above. Only 2 of the 6 original opinion majority are still on the court.
I don't see Gorsuch joining them.
Marriage is a secular construct for the purpose of determining inheritance of titles and the transferring of property / materials / money / etc. in an orderly fashion by legal means. It just happens to be associated with religion because that's how you got superstitious dirt farmers to adhere to it in the old days. Nobility / aristocracy already knew the importance of orderly transfer and how people ended up dead or fighting for years if the transfer wasn't so orderly. Nowadays it is still for transfer of money / property but also includes legal rights and proxy privileges when a person can't say for themselves. All of this is legal BS and should have religion subtracted from it in a sane world, but we still have people who will adhere to a religious "pinky swear" over a legal binding contract ... so they are still co-mingled.
Kim Davis is free to have / practice her religion so long as it didn't impact her job duties... which it did. She shouldn't be able to deny doing her duties as a clerk because she is religious any more than a burger-flipper can suddenly not serve burgers because they are muslim. She knew (or should have known) what the job entails and self-regulated herself out of it before it became an issue. Kim can take her case as stuff it; this is her problem and nobody else's.
"She knew (or should have known) what the job entails and self-regulated herself out of it before it became an issue."
She refused to issue any marriage licenses at all, as Obergefell had overturned the marriage law in Kentucky and there was no new law defining the requirements from the legislature. The LGBTQ culture warriors could not abide this defiance in their moment of triumph and had her jailed for her failure to bend the knee. Despite the fact she was treating everyone equally.
So, local officials should do their jobs obey the law and cooperate with federal immigration agencies? Right?
Um, yes. If you are morally opposed to what you are being ordered to do ... QUIT.
Except blue cities and states aren't doing that. They are just ignoring federal law.
Maybe someone should have asked her to send in 5 things she did last week.
But its association with religion is weak outside of theocracies. You want out of your religion's strictures re marriage? Get out of that religion.
Marriage pre-existed religions, and religions mostly went along with the existing customs on marriage unless those religions wanted to be very exclusive. Similarly with dietary laws, for instance.
>>I don't think there are five such votes at the present.
it's a 7-2 court at the start of every day so unlikely with this issue.
overturn it, then also declare gov has no legitimate interest in marriage at all.
yes. a surprise double-whammy decision.
The problem being, the last part is not true. Children raised in a marraige tend to be mentally healthier than children who are not.
Marriage is a man made construct that has less bearing on children than the cooperative structure of two people in a loving relationship acting in accordance with the family unit.
Marriage is society providing a cultural and legal structure for the formation of family units with attendant responsibilities and duties. The dismissal of such constructs as unimportant by the social leftists is mystifying except for emphasizing how anti-human that ideology is.
Relationships and families pre-date marriage ceremonies. People raised children just fine without marriage. Marriage came about as a means to transfer wealth & gain alliances.
"People raised children just fine without marriage."
In pre-civilization perhaps. "Return to monkey" is not really a great argument for lwhat social structures are useful for living in a global technological civilization.
When did religion become involved?
As the Christian church became a powerful institution in Europe, the blessings of a priest became increasingly common. Through the years, "there have been differing views about whether weddings are primarily religious or secular events," said the Christian-based Nelson University. For "much of the early Christian Era, the Church stayed out of weddings and let the state handle the union of man and woman." But by the eighth century, Christian churches started to perform weddings, and the ritual became widely accepted as a sacrament.
https://theweek.com/articles/528746/origins-marriage
Children raised in a marraige tend to be mentally healthier than children who are not.
And, potentially opposite side of the same coin, biologically *and* economically-speaking biological parents have more invested in their kids well-being and tend to behave accordingly than non-biological parents. Even if marriage is purely private construct, the state still has a viable interest in making sure the kid winds up in a stable home with a biological parent, if possible, rather than in foster care or with an embattled step-parent.
I don't think the guarantee of equality in the 14th amendment imputes same-sex marriage as a right any more than I think the amendment legally wiped out all recognition of distinct sexes in state law.
Common law was made for individuals. It grudgingly accommodates family law only because of practical reasons that predate all formal law, religion, and probably even custom or culture in the form of instinct among pre-human primate lines. It is foolish to think that just because two people of whatever sex want to take advantage of the legal form of marriage, that therefore its terms should be extended over them.
On the other hand, marriage should not be subject to licensure. Licensure of just about anything is an abomination. Where it serves as registration, as of marriages, real estate, and the like, and can thereby help resolve legal claims, OK; but permission? Feh!
Ya know, there's sooo many fields in which I wish the Supes would use 14A to overturn state restrictions on liberty, and that in many ways get there by treating person unequally under law. Instead of those we get bogus extensions of legal equality to grant privileges.
If they had argued the case in a different way it could have opened the door for reciprocity for other licenses issued by a state, and we can’t have that.
The Kim Davis litigation is a poor vehicle for revisiting Obergefell.
Even the justices willing to overrule Obergefell are waiting for the right case, and this is not it.
That was exactly why I was so perplexed when supposedly respected news organizations even considered her cert petition to be newsworthy.
But, I guess, it's part of an agenda setting up for midterms - spread as much alarm and fear as possible to help Democrats take the House.
This is the same media-party complex that ran with "10 yr. old girl must cross state lines for an abortion" before it realized or even had the second thought that the girl was a rape victim of her own "Maryland Father".
SOCTUS has been asked to consider turning me into a newt.
Gay marriage? I could care less. The one thing homosexuals should not be allowed is adopt children. No way. Not after what two faggots did to that poor little infant.
Time to bring back hangings. Public hangings at that.
Hope they die painfully.
Here we go with this again. I'll take the virtual bait.
Hetero couples also do terrible things to infants, therefore we should outlaw hetero marriage as well. (TM)
From the standpoint of the state, "marriage" should be just a convenient prepackaged contract between two people with statutory and case law to back it up predictably. There should be no restrictions except that both parties agree to be married and both are able to consent (so, for example, in most cases minors couldn't get married w/o parental approval).
Even a brother and a sister should be able to marry as yucky as that may seem. (Although, perhaps one is 85 and the other is 84 and they just trust each other to make decisions if they are unable to and want to also conveniently share expenses and tax advantages - which wouldn't be particularly yucky.)
However that in no way precludes having laws prohibiting incest as the product of such activity incurs a heightened societal cost (esp. if it continues for too many generations). Unmarried people can legally have sex and a married person can not legally force their partner to engage in sex. Marriage and procreation are two distinct things and "church marriage" is yet another.
(Ideally "government marriage" should be a convenient prepackaged contract between any number of people. However that raises so many complications with fitting into current law and custom that's likely a step too far for now.)
Why is anyone listening to what this hag has to say in the first place? She lost to fucking Trump AFTER colluding with her media pals to make him the favorite cause she thought he’d be easier to beat than Jeb.
Her opinion about anything is worth less than the dumbest people that post here.
Homosexuality: Depravity Or Dignity?
Excerpt from the novel, Retribution Fever:
In their highly organized campaign using paid marketing professionals, they had enlisted so-called celebrities to sing their praises and had imitated the Negroes’ claim to “civil rights” as their strategy — beyond mere tolerance, beyond simple acceptance, to wholehearted endorsement. Biblically-abominable licentiousness became constitutionally-guaranteed “liberty”.
Ironically, while heterosexuals increasingly had been demeaning marriage, homosexuals increasingly were demanding it. Most amazing to Americans a mere generation prior to Retribution would have been that homosexuals were succeeding.
Biologically, homosexuality precludes the possibility of traditional family. The consequence of conferring legitimacy upon homosexuality by characterizing it as an acceptable lifestyle equivalent to heterosexuality had been to undermine the traditional family as the basic social unit of society. What could replace the traditional family in the rearing of children? Ultimately, only the state with its self-serving, tyrannical bureaucrats and power-hungry, corrupt politicians.
Theologically, the Hebraic Bible in Leviticus is specific, explicit, harsh, and unyielding. Homosexuality is an abomination. It is not an alternative lifestyle. It is a major and mortal sin worthy of the severest of punishment. It undermines the age-old format of marriage by making a mockery of it while mocking Nature itself.
In making homosexual marriage a constitutional right, the Court had concocted “equal dignity in the eyes of the law” as the basis for its decision; yet, the word, dignity, appeared nowhere in the Constitution even as amended.
This only applies if you give a rat's butt about the Hebraic Bible and/or Leviticus. If you don't, like many don't, then it and everything in it is moot.
As others stated, marriage is not a right. It is a legally binding contract between two individuals. Neither can be forced into accepting the terms (at least as long as sharia law is not permitted) The state believes there is a benefit to encouraging these personal contracts so there are lawful benefits conveyed on a married couple.
The real question is: Can a state grant a legal recognition of a personal contract between one man and one woman and refuse to grant the same recognition of a personal contract between two men or two women?
Can the government refuse to give a person the President status-symbol?
Why yes; In fact the very US Constitution does that.
The whole "I have a right to a government marriage." is just more of the same BS Leftard Selfish-Entitlement claims they've been swinging around on everything else. Right to Healthcare. Right to Universal Income. Right to Invade the USA. Blah, blah, blah, blah... Leftards really must think they're Gods and entitled to everything under the Sun.
We could say.... Just forget about the courts? And just pass an amendment allowing gay marriage?
Cool?
Except.... The LEFT would throw a fit. You couldn't write such an amendment anymore that would work.
Cause the Left can't deal with a definition of what you mean by "same sex".
The Conservatives should propose a gay marriage constitutional amendment to see the Left's heads explode.
It would be easy to write it. Just say, "any two consenting adults may marry." No need to "define" anybody.
So long as the term/contract (whatever you want to call it) 'marry' is restricted between JUST the two consenting adults and has nothing to do with government law.
If I had to guess, I would say that only Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito, and perhaps also Neil Gorsuch, could be counted on to vote in favor of that hugely controversial result at this time.
You're wrong. It'd follow the exact same reasoning Dobbs did. This is a State issue.
Thomas, Alito, Gorsuch, ACB, and BK.
Kagan and the two DEI hires would obviously oppose.
John would likely take the opportunity to virtue signal.
Any Justice who uses 'moral standards' in a ruling should be shown the door.
Especially when there is no inherent right to a gov status symbol.
You do know that the Constitution, the entire body of American law, and every single Court Opinion interpreting both is using moral standards, right? (And not just any moral standards, but predominately Christian moral standards! Because, surprise, America is a Christian Nation.)
I mean, if this comes as a genuine surprise to you, then you'd better get your butt back into 6th grade Civics and American History.
WRONG. The very purpose of the 1A is to prevent religious 'moral standards' (i.e. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof") from becoming law.
Rights violations would fit within 'ethics' not 'morals'.
We're not talking about religion. We're talking about morality.
And what part of Dobbs wasn't based on religion?
The Banning of Prostitution example thrown out directly after?
You can deny the correlation all you want. There is no Individual 'rights' violation there. So the only bottom-line excuse left there is 'faith'/religion perfectly explained as 'moral standards'.