Is Gay Marriage Really Under Threat at the Supreme Court?
Asking SCOTUS to hear a case is not the same thing as convincing SCOTUS to hear a case.

Former Secretary of State Hillary Clinton delivered some stark words of warning this week about the prospects of same-sex marriage surviving over the long term as a constitutional right. "The Supreme Court will hear a case about gay marriage," Clinton said. "My prediction is they will do to gay marriage what they did to abortion."
Is Clinton right to worry? A quick glance at some recent breaking news headlines might lead you to think that she is. "Supreme Court formally asked to overturn landmark same-sex ruling," reported ABC News. "SCOTUS has been asked to overturn same-sex marriage," observed USA Today.
But the headlines only told part of the story.
You’re reading Injustice System from Damon Root and Reason. Get more of Damon’s commentary on constitutional law and American history.
Yes, the U.S. Supreme Court was recently asked to revisit its 2015 decision in Obergefell v. Hodges, which held that "the right of same-sex couples to marry…is part of the liberty promised by the Fourteenth Amendment." The person who did the asking is Kim Davis, the former Kentucky county clerk who earned national headlines when she refused to issue marriage licenses to same-sex couples. Davis has since been fighting an uphill legal battle to overturn Obergefell. Having recently lost before the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 6th Circuit, she is now trying to persuade the high court to take up her case on appeal.
The odds are not exactly in Davis' favor. The Supreme Court is "formally asked" to hear thousands of new cases each term, yet the justices only agree to hear a small fraction of them. And most of the thousands of parties seeking such review are turned away by the Supreme Court without receiving so much as a single word of explanation.
To request review by the Supreme Court, in other words, is definitely not the same thing as obtaining review by the Supreme Court. The chances are good that the petition for review in Davis v. Ermold will be denied, just like those thousands of other petitions are denied by the justices every term.
However, it is also true that the Supreme Court does sometimes agree to hear a case for the express purpose of reconsidering one of its own precedents, such as when the Court took up Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization (2022) and used it as a vehicle for overturning Roe v. Wade (1973) and eliminating the constitutional right to obtain an abortion.
That's the thing about precedent at the Supreme Court. It matters—until it doesn't.
So, the real question to ponder is whether the requisite five votes exist on the Supreme Court right now to overturn Obergefell. Absent the magic number of five, Davis will never succeed in making Davis the next Dobbs.
I don't think there are five such votes at the present. If I had to guess, I would say that only Clarence Thomas and Samuel Alito, and perhaps also Neil Gorsuch, could be counted on to vote in favor of that hugely controversial result at this time.
But we won't know for sure until the Supreme Court returns in a few weeks from its summer break. Until then, you too may guess away.
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If two dudes want to get together, start kissing, taking each other’s clothes off, perhaps rubbing their cocks against each other, then proceed to where one of the guy’s erect cock is pushed into the rectum of the other guy. Then removed. Pushed in again. Removed. Pushed in yet again then pulled out and continued to be done until the top ejaculates inside the anus of the bottom or perhaps he pulls out and finishes on the bottom’s back, belly, or in the mouth that should be ok. But I’m not sure that is marriage.
Get the state out of regulating “marriage.”
Marriage is primarily a religious institution. It may have made sense for the state to recognize these sacred unions in the past, when women were essentially the property of their husbands, but we've moved beyond that as a society. In the modern world there is no place for the state in sacred unions.
This is an area where libertarians are as destructively subversive of civil society as the most radical Marxist, in deciding that institutions supporting family formation and cohesion are "outdated".
Why should the state support family formation and cohesion? There are more representative institutions that can provide this function, such as churches, social clubs, communes, etc. Members of those organizations can request their members to abide certain rules, like marriage contracts, abstinence pledges, etc. without the harmful interference of the government. Allowing the state to dictate the terms of marriage is what led to its perversion in the first place. Surely you see that.
Why? Because the family is the basis of civil society and how society renews itself.
Even if that is true, that is not an argument to use the power of government to enforce a specific definition of family upon everyone. Marriage is a social contract between two people and government has no business there.
What societal purpose does marriage as merely a contract between two generic people serve?
Would marriage exist at all if that was the real definition of a marriage?
Why should the state support family formation and cohesion?
This is backwards. Libertarians don't attack or aren't intrinsically opposed to social cohesion. If hippies out west somewhere want to set up a commune, redistribute their own wealth, expel Jews from their property or group and even elect a Führer named Adolph it's not in any way a libertarian precept, and is exceedingly oxymoronic to deny them any of that by force.
Life, Liberty, Happiness, Free Association are among the self-evident truths provided by a creator to a free people. People opposed are intrinsically not libertarians. Anarchy is the best but least stable and reliable outcome.
This is the usual statist/subversive Marxist/sophist dilemma. The construing or conflation of passive vs. active or is vs. ought. It's possible for a state or a people to recognize something like family units and biological cohesion without formally endorsing it or compelling its endorsement from others. The recognition that biological parents are more intrinsically invested in their offspring and thus more supportive of them across the animal kingdom, is not compelling everyone to have children or support people who do, moreover, the state legally intervening disproportionately but objectively when non-parents abuse their non-biological children more often is not a policy endorsement of marriage or the nuclear family even if that's the natural effect or product.
I heard recently about a group that bought up some land out west and is developing it with exclusively white protestant members. This would be an interesting story to cover.
Plymouth Rock, 2.0?
Get the state out of regulating “marriage.”
*or*
Redefine "marriage" as so broad and diffuse that it's not really broad or distinct from any other social contract. Husband, wife, and au pair are "married" fine. All the members of a Crossfit 'box' are 'married', fine, all the female and male performers contractually employed by the same porn studio are 'married', fine.
This or various versions and approximations of this were on the table at the time. They were rejected in favor of the "2 men = 1 man + 1 woman" stupidity.
Get the state out of it. Let the people enter into a contract and have whatever religious festivity they want. Jesse nails it below.
Eliminate the income tax so “but can’t file jointly” argument is gone.
And a good graphic morning to you, Chumby.
That was the dialed back version. You are welcome.
You must fantasize about it a lot.
Eew, with an extra serving of ick.
Your take on even hetero sex is not to be read before breakfast.
Its the same tactic as describing in depth a late term abortion. It makes it impossible to unsee (with the minds eye) what's being discussed and forces the issue into stark relief."
The question becomes... why are these acts considered marriage and\or worthy of special benefits? What differentiates this kind of union with the heterosexual marriage.... remembering there are only so many orphans you can sacrifice to the grooming state.
""The Supreme Court will hear a case about gay marriage," Clinton said. "My prediction is they will do to gay marriage what they did to abortion.""
You mean remove the absurd judicial mandate requiring the recognition of gay "marriage" based on false equivalency and return the decision to the States?
The state has an interest in regulating the sexual relationships of same sex couples, why?
Power is an end, not a means.
If I throw a rock at a glass window, chances are the glass is gonna shatter. If I throw a rock at a brick wall the brick wall is gonna be ok. If pigs had wings chances are they would fly. If Clarence Thomas was white instead of black and said nigger he'd probably still be a supreme court justice. So let's calm town now shall we!
What was the point of that word salad?
Equally mystified.
I’m particularly glad that these lovely children were here today to hear that speech. Not only was it authentic frontier gibberish, it expressed a courage little seen in this day and age.
Get government out of the marriage business. Non firm contracts treated as firm contracts that can be changed on legislative or judicial whim is wrong. Force partners to be explicit in the terms of their marriage and dissolution at the outset.
The marriage contract used to be 'firm' when people respected the institution and invested their self worth in keeping the institution strong [keeping their own marriage strong] due to the cultural deference to, and general non-confused understanding of the thing. People had skin in the game. Now the concept has been so degraded your question is valid on a secular level. Now the various levels of state stand for nothing (morality and values-wise) so the imprimatur of the state also adds nothing to the institution other than more state give-a-ways. Mind you, it still does incentivize such contracts in as much as they are beneficial in a legally enforceable way. Its just that it now incentivizes a meaningless union when viewed by the justifications for such contracts by the state.
(was that incoherently enough stated... its more stream of consciousness... my apologies)
I suspect the Supreme Court isn't going to revisit Obergefell v. Hodges. You would have to prove that same-sex couples marrying harms anyone, and there is no evidence of that. Fact is, marriage equality for same-sex couples shouldn't have taken as long as it did. There was never any constitutional justification for denying law-abiding, taxpaying Gay couples the same right to marry that Straight couples have always taken for granted. What more legal reasoning do you need?
Churches have never been forced to provide weddings for anyone, and it's a moot point anyway, since the legal benefits of marriage don't come from the church, they come from the federal government. Procreation and parenting are irrelevant also, since couples do not need to marry to make babies, nor is the ability or even desire to make babies a prerequisite for a marriage license.
According to the Government Accountability Office (GAO) there are 1,138 legal protections, regulations, and responsibilities that pertain specifically to married couples. Much of this has to do with Social Security, inheritance, healthcare, etc. If the government wanted to get out of the marriage business altogether, it would be a legal quagmire.
Some would also suggest that marriage should be left up to individual states, but the point would be moot since a marriage honored in one state is honored across state lines. Marriage is fundamentally a contractual agreement between two adults. Any couple can fly off to Las Vegas for the weekend, get married by an Elvis impersonator, and that marriage is automatically honored back home, thanks to the "Full Faith and Credit" clause.
Maybe I’m being overly optimistic, but I don’t think SCOTUS will reconsider the issue. Frankly, they wouldn’t DARE.
They dared when they made their first foray into the issue on a weak or non-existent basis. It was done through judicialeans, not legislative, on weak grounds.
If it gets tossed, progressives will look to fill the scotus with sympathetic justices. In other words, more judge packing.
With more legislators in judicial clothing, like Sotomayor.
She is just one of the two remaining from the majority in Obergefell.
Like that's not already their rallying cry every time they don't get their way?
At this point, Court packing is a sure thing as soon as the Democrats have a President of their own party, and enough of a majority to survive a few defections. The only thing that would stop it would be a constitutional amendment fixing the size of the Court, and the Republicans aren't proactive enough to even TRY to get such an amendment. Let alone play the sort of hardball, "If you don't agree to the amendment, we do it first!" that would be necessary to get Democrats to go along with it.
"Fact is, marriage equality for same-sex couples shouldn't have taken as long as it did."
It should not exist at all, as same sex relationships are not equivalent to opposite sex relationships in importance to society. To suggest that they are, means ignoring reproductive capacity entirely.
What is the argument that society has an interest in regulating same-sex relationships?
If you cannot answer that question then the assertion that "equal treatment" applies goes out the window.
So, should reproductive capacity have to be proven before a marriage license is issued? Should there be a time limit to perform? No baby in 10 years, the marriage is annulled? What is the argument that society has an interest in regulating childless heterosexual relationships?
That could be done. It does not have to be.
It is not equivalent to the argument that same sex relationships must be included as marriages.
You just said that reproduction is what justifies state involvement in couples' relationships. Apparently you're not interested in defending that.
Not at all. You are just not understanding.
No, I understand. You are declining to defend your inconsistent position. That's fine.
I am saying the state does not have to treat possibly infertile heterosexual couples as fertile ones. That it does is not a contradiction.
You are claiming that the must treat infertile by definition same sex couples as potentially fertile opposite sex couples. You have not provided a rational reason for that. Not that it can choose to do so, but it MUST.
There are a lot of benefits in marriage that are properly benefits for raising kids. Move those benefits fully to dependents and toss every marriage to an equal civil union for legal/contract purposes to return marriage to the church.
^THIS^
Importance to society?
Who cares? I didn't know the pursuit of happiness relied on that.
I fully support the right of gays to lose half their stuff in divorce.
I feel like we lost half our stuff adopting gay marriage and all the baggage it brought to the relationship and divorcing ourselves from it is the best way we can scrape some of it back.
Life seemed decidedly less "Fuck around with everybody behind your back, light your shit on fire on the lawn, *and* press charges against you." before gay marriage than it did after.
Like we all became a little more sarcasmic in the last 10 yrs.
Like we all became a little more sarcasmic in the last 10 yrs.
No need to insult everyone.
Drinking is actually down, so we became somehow less sarcasmic.
Cheers to that.
😉
Obergefell was one of the first cases that made a mutable construct deemed immutable, sexual attraction. This led to the same bullshit in Dobbs regarding gender as an immutable construct.
Both need to be overturned.
Are you able to change which sex you're attracted to at will? If so, you should be studied--you're unique.
The permutations of queer gender theory have irreparably undermined the immutability of sexual attraction for LGBTQ arguments.
Those "permutations" are irrelevant to the reality of human sexual orientation.
Those permutations are attempting to define what they see as the reality of human sexual orientation. And it contradicts the reasoning of Obergefell.
The best result is for the court to take the case and rule that marriage of any kind is not a place for any government.
Just because federal legislators were too lazy to craft proper tax regulations, and used "marriage" as a proxy for their intent is no reason to continue the farce.
Hillary Clinton via MSM says....anything to stir up some progressive panic. They don't seem to have a lot else at this point.
A reversal of Obergefell would be a bigger gift to them than Jan 6 was.
Correct on both counts. Alarmism has been the left's only remaining argument the last few cycles, and nobody is really listening anymore. Unless the SC gives the left another Dobbs-shaped club to hit the Republicans with.
Dobbs, indeed; abortions have declined in those States that passed limitations on access to it, but I understand have generally increased in other States that allow/ promote it, along with medication induced abortions. Haven't seen anyone in media spotlight crying about not being able to get one, so it seems that haven't been able to find anyone who fits that role?
The other rallying cry for Dems these days seems to be that the Epstein files [which were largely dismissed when it suited them] are somehow "dividing the Republican Party" and Trump's followers...I don't believe they've quite realized that Party has largely died and been replaced with a populist one [at least for the time being].
It would be rather pathetic if I could somehow be moved to sympathy for them.
There is no Individual 'right' to a government issued status symbol.
...because the status symbol in question isn't inherent.
"The Supreme Court will hear a case about gay marriage," Clinton said. "My prediction is they will do to gay marriage what they did to abortion."
Provide a correct ruling?
Bans on gay marriage are completely indefensible under 14A equal protection.
Ya know; like the ?right? to out-of jurisdiction (foreigner) US citizenship you leftards also like to cherry-pick from the 14A?
"[WE] are *entitled* to your things/nation because [WE] know how to manipulate, cherry-pick and deceive F'En everything that gets in our Selfish way!" /s
Selfish, Greedy, Self-Entitled Scam-Artists is all that resides in Leftard Mentalities.
It is not so much a "ban", rather than a contradiction in terms.
Same sex relationships do not meet the basic requirements to be a marriage.
How are same sex relationships equivalent to opposite sex ones? Why does the state have an interest in regulating same sex relationships?
Why does the State have an interest in regulating childless opposite-sex relationships?
It does not HAVE to. It chooses to because it is easier.
I see--you get to ask the questions, but you won't answer any.
That was an answer. I cannot help it if you refuse to understand it.
>>Clinton said. "My prediction is they will do to gay marriage what they did to abortion."
H walks into those traps just like Jeff lol
All of our rights are at risk with this court, and they will overturn Obergefell, but not in this case.
As they should. There is no 'inherent' right to government status symbols.
You want to start your own poopy butt-hole obsession church? Fine.
You don't need 'Guns' against others to do that.
And I assume you extend that to traditional marriage as well.
Absolutely. If the Tax-Code insists on using Status-Symbols for Tax-Favoritism then it should be decided by 'democracy' (Congresses right to lay tax). There is no inherent 'right' there to protect.
You fake "rights" are at risk with this court.
Actual rights will be protected.
Either there is a right to marry - in which case it shouldn't be restricted to opposite-sex partnerships - or there isn't, in which case the government should stay out of it. The one impermissible position given your argument is that opposite-sex partnerships have the right to marry but same-sex partnerships do not.
"...in which case it shouldn't be restricted to opposite-sex partnerships..."
Why? What is the reasoning behind that assertion? How are same sex relationships equivalent to opposite sex relationships?
For what reason does the state have to regulate same sex relationships as it does opposite sex relationships?
Because the state must treat men and women equally.
There is nothing in marriage that treats men and women unequally.
Telling a man that he may not marry a man, but a woman may, is treating men and women unequally.
Those relationships are not equal to a male-female relationship. What is your argument for how they are?
In as much as marriage is a religious institution I'd say there is no 'right' to marriage. It is a designation controlled by whichever religious organization believes in the rite. Just like there is no right to join a men's only club or to participate in the special Olympics.
Now, there should be an equal right to enter into contracts - and that is how the benefits the state confers to couples ... or "thruples" or whatever corruption of the initial idea is thrown about... that is how it should be managed. Benefits should be allotted according to strictly defined behaviors and not some general idea ... as the concept of marriage has become.
When marriage was understood in its simple and uncorrupted way I think it was justifiable - maybe not in a libertarian sense - after a fashion but when the word became so elastic as to become the clay from which progressives will ultimately achieve their societal goals, legal state provided and enforced benefits became nonsense.
This also points to why culture matters and why the destruction of the old (conservative) ways is so important to the progressives.
"Either there is a right to marry - in which case it shouldn't be restricted to opposite-sex partnerships - or there isn't"
If somebody must agree for it to be practiced, it is --- by default --- not a right.
This decision was pure politics disguised as law. Nine people took away the ability of hundreds of millions of others to decide the issue for themselves. It's a bad ruling.
It doesn't matter if you are for homosexual marriage or against it. The court has no business AT ALL making political decisions.
^BINGO. As the status-symbol isn't an inherent right because it comes from 'government' not from the Individual. People should have a 'right' to issue their own definition of married but they don't have any-right to FORCE that definition onto everyone with 'Guns'.
It is literally exactly like Puritans obsession to cleanse the world of pornography only the counter-religion-of. The key is to keep the 'Guns' away from religion one way or the other. The USA was founded on Individual Liberty NOT 'Guns' that FORCE a personal opinion onto everyone else.
""The USA was founded on Individual Liberty ""
This would allow same sex marriages. The concept that other people can decide who can and cannot marry is against individual liberty.
This decision was pure politics disguised as law. Nine people took away the ability of hundreds of millions of others to decide the issue for themselves.
Perhaps, but why should that group have the ability to deny to others a right which does not affect themselves? How are my rights being infringed if a gay couple want to marry?
Ask the "Bake that Cake" guy.
Which is precisely the consequence of made-up fake ?rights? that are actually entitlements.
The only result going on is destroying the actual 'rights' of others.
Forcing someone to provide a service is not the same as two people consenting to an action.
1. My guess is Thomas and Alito would hear the appeal but no-one else will. I suppose it's possible that Gorsuch joins them, but that still makes only three, when four are needed.
2. Kim Davis is a bigot and a hypocrite.
Marriage is a secular construct for the purpose of determining inheritance of titles and the transferring of property / materials / money / etc. in an orderly fashion by legal means. It just happens to be associated with religion because that's how you got superstitious dirt farmers to adhere to it in the old days. Nobility / aristocracy already knew the importance of orderly transfer and how people ended up dead or fighting for years if the transfer wasn't so orderly. Nowadays it is still for transfer of money / property but also includes legal rights and proxy privileges when a person can't say for themselves. All of this is legal BS and should have religion subtracted from it in a sane world, but we still have people who will adhere to a religious "pinky swear" over a legal binding contract ... so they are still co-mingled.
Kim Davis is free to have / practice her religion so long as it didn't impact her job duties... which it did. She shouldn't be able to deny doing her duties as a clerk because she is religious any more than a burger-flipper can suddenly not serve burgers because they are muslim. She knew (or should have known) what the job entails and self-regulated herself out of it before it became an issue. Kim can take her case as stuff it; this is her problem and nobody else's.
"She knew (or should have known) what the job entails and self-regulated herself out of it before it became an issue."
She refused to issue any marriage licenses at all, as Obergefell had overturned the marriage law in Kentucky and there was no new law defining the requirements from the legislature. The LGBTQ culture warriors could not abide this defiance in their moment of triumph and had her jailed for her failure to bend the knee. Despite the fact she was treating everyone equally.
So, local officials should do their jobs obey the law and cooperate with federal immigration agencies? Right?
Um, yes. If you are morally opposed to what you are being ordered to do ... QUIT.
Except blue cities and states aren't doing that. They are just ignoring federal law.
Maybe someone should have asked her to send in 5 things she did last week.
>>I don't think there are five such votes at the present.
it's a 7-2 court at the start of every day so unlikely with this issue.
overturn it, then also declare gov has no legitimate interest in marriage at all.
yes. a surprise double-whammy decision.
The problem being, the last part is not true. Children raised in a marraige tend to be mentally healthier than children who are not.