Trump Says Birthright Citizenship Is Only 'About the Babies of Slaves.' Historical Evidence Says Otherwise.
The 1866 debate over birthright citizenship included a debate over immigration.

During the recent oral arguments in Trump v. Casa, Solicitor General John Sauer repeatedly defended President Donald Trump's executive order stripping birthright citizenship from millions of U.S.-born children on the grounds that the 14th Amendment "extended citizenship to the children of former slaves, not to people who are unlawfully or temporarily present in the United States." Unfortunately for Sauer and his boss, the historical evidence tells a different story.
On May 30, 1866, the U.S. Senate kicked off its debate on the Citizenship Clause of the proposed 14th Amendment, which says, "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
The first opponent to speak was Sen. Edgar Cowan (R–Penn.), who objected to the 14th Amendment on the grounds that it would bestow U.S. citizenship on the children of unpopular immigrants. "Is it proposed that the people of California are to remain quiescent while they are overrun by a flood of immigration of the Mongol race?" Cowan demanded. "Are they to be immigrated out of house and home by Chinese?"
Cowan also worried about the presence of "Gypsies" in Pennsylvania. "They wander in gangs in my State," he declared. "These people live in the country and are born in the country. They infest society." Are their children also to be granted birthright citizenship by the language of the amendment? "If the mere fact of being born in the country confers that right," Cowan complained, "then they will have it; and I think it will be mischievous."
Sen. John Conness (R–Calif.) then rose to speak in response to Cowan. "I beg my honorable friend from Pennsylvania to give himself no further trouble on account of the Chinese in California or on the Pacific coast," he said. "We are entirely ready to accept the provision proposed in this constitutional amendment, that the children born here of Mongolian parents shall be declared by the Constitution of the United States to be entitled to civil rights and to equal protection before the law with others."
Note that Cowan and Conness both agreed on the meaning of birthright citizenship. They only disagreed about whether or not that meaning would produce a welcome result. And note also that their shared original understanding runs counter to the position now advanced by the Trump administration.
In that same 1866 speech, Conness also pointed out that he had already joined a majority of Congress in voting for birthright citizenship once before. "The proposition before us," he said, "relates simply in that respect to the children begotten of Chinese parents in California, and it is proposed to declare that they shall be citizens. We have declared that by law; now it is proposed to incorporate the same provision in the fundamental instrument of the nation."
Conness was referring here to the Civil Rights Act of 1866, which Congress had passed in April over the veto of President Andrew Johnson. Why did Johnson veto it? Among "the provisions I cannot approve," Johnson wrote, was the first section of the law, in which "all persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are declared to be citizens of the United States."
It was bad enough, according to Johnson, that this statutory guarantee of birthright citizenship would make citizens "out of the entire race designated as blacks." In his view, "four million of them have just emerged from slavery to freedom. Can it be reasonably supposed that they possess the requisite qualifications to entitle them to all the privileges and immunities of citizens of the United States?" But Johnson also objected to the fact that the Civil Rights Act would make citizens out of the children of "the Chinese of the Pacific States, Indians subject to taxation, [and] the people called Gipsies." Just like Cowan and Conness, Johnson also understood that birthright citizenship would apply to the U.S.-born children of unpopular immigrants.
Trump may think that birthright citizenship is only "about the babies of slaves." But as these statements from the 1866 debates make clear, the historical evidence proves him wrong.
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Next on Arguing with Idiots: Trump defenders defend his incredibly stupid and dishonest interpretation of the 14A. This aught to be entertaining.
*pops some popcorn*
Seems strange to eat popcorn while anticipating a bunch of grey-boxes... Now I'm wondering if you actually mute anyone after all...
No only hasn't he muted anyone, he thinks that muting anyone does so for everyone.
A drunkard he remains.
Muting is how he makes his old comments disappear.
No grasshopper, he does not.
I sincerely doubt he mutes anyone. He uses the term and threat as his way of getting power over someone. Unfortunately for him, that tactic fails miserably.
But Trump is never, ever wrong. About anything. Therefore the sycophants aren't either, so no arguing necessary.
No, you’re just a retarded idiot. Like all the other democrat fags here.
Actually I am a straight Democrat, and I can make arguments without namecalling, unlike MAGA trolls like you.
Hey another moron who shouts at the sky.
Here you go buddy. Read your first ever essay from an actual libertarian.
https://mailchi.mp/tomwoods/birthright?e=503752da56
Or another.
https://mises.org/power-market/birthright-citizenship-isnt-real
And The Average Dude (who's dumber than rocks) is a TDS-addled pile of lefty shit who should fuck off and die.
Do you find it ironic that only your enemies have provided temporal evidence while you rely on continued ignorance?
You can't be an idiot and claim you're arguing with idiots who see things differently! The 14 Amendment was not for illegals! They didn't think it was right that a slave LIVING in the U.S. legally, and had children, none were considered citizens. If you read it like an intelligent person, the founders didn't want people coming here illegally to drop a baby and viola!, they are all citizens! What then is the value of being born and raised as a citizen only to give it away willy nilly? And why are some of you arguing for illegals who have no ties, interest, or commitment to our values? They come here and won't assimilate, learn the language, and fly their country's flags! This crap MUST end if we are to keep our American values. Notice NO other countries sacrifice their country's values, morals, and history. And if illegals don't assimilate, they kick them out like Switzerland and other countries did. Even England wishes they hadn't bee so open to illegal immigration.
Apparently you didn’t read the article. Or the debate in 1866. That’s exactly what they meant to do.
False again Nelson Ole buddy.
Have you tried reading the entirety of what is referenced? Read the debate records? Hint, 2 articles from actual libertarians are linked above for you dumdum.
MAGA flunked bith third grade Reading and seventh grade US History.
" the founders didn't want people coming here illegally"
Liar. The Founders didn't create a legal concept called illegal alien. In fact, they didn't even give the federal government authority to limit immigration. It isn't in the Constitution.
"have no ties, interest, or commitment to our values"
Precisely the bigoted argument used in 1924 to ban immigration from Eastern and Southern Europe. Previously it had been used to ban immigration from China.
And if you don't like Spanish-speaking persons coming to the US, which seems to be the case, you should have left the US by 1803. That was when the US annexed Louisiana, which had been Spanish for 40 years. It then annexed Florida, Texas, and the rest of what is now the Southwest. None of the people living there except for some of the Texians had "American values" or spoke English. Most were Catholic, which back then was widely considered an anti-American religion. Estados Unidos es ahora el segundo país de habla hispana más grande del mundo, después de México, y tiene dos miembros de la Asociación de Academias de la Lengua Española: la Academia Norteamericana de la Lengua Española y la Academia Puertorriqueña de la Lengua Española.
"keep our American values"
Your so-called values are racism, nativism, and hatred of the US Constitution.
How would the debate have gone if one member had advanced the hypothetical that now applies? "What if, at some future date, the government think it necessary to limit immigration? What of those who are not permitted entry, should they later enter by stealth? Should it extend citizenship to the children of those entering in violation of the law?"
The hypothetical didn't come up because there is nothing in the Constitution that gives the federal government power to limit immigration.
LOL...
So a Democrat President vetoed the Civil Rights Act of 1866...
.. but his Veto was over-ridden by congress ..
BUT; Get this ...
We should go by what the Democrat Presidents over-ridden veto says?
Seriously? Take the side that failed on the 14A instead of the side that actually passed it?
Talk about Executive Over-reaching. Let's just go by the veto and ignore the Congress over-ride.
I think you are missing his point. The proponents and opponents understood what the language would practically do. The racists didn't want Mongols and Gypsies' babies to be citizens. They lost. So the babies of mongols and gypsies did, in fact, become citizens by birth.
Which is the whole point. Present attempts to re-write history to ignore what happened when the amendment was being proposed & ratified don't help their originalist legal argument. They won't (or rather can't) abandon originalism; so they have to change history. It's a rather sordid affair.
Conness claimed it was birthright citizenship without a 'jurisdiction' exemption while Cowan insisted it has a 'jurisdiction' exemption. This is nothing but the same debate upon us today going on a couple centuries ago.
Which one ended up being passed? Was the 'jurisdiction' part left-out to support Connesses take or is the 'jurisdiction' left-in the 14A? That part was also clarified when the 14A (actual pitch) hit the floor. That article was done here at Reason a week or so ago where the author specifically stated, "of course; it didn't include illegal immigrants". That is the originalist take.
Pretending the 'jurisdiction' 'and' exemption didn't get passed because "mongols and gypsies did, in fact, become citizens by birth" is exactly as I stated, "going by what the Democrat Presidents over-ridden veto says" and Conness take NOT by what actually was passed.
I think you're still not a lawyer as we have the temporal comments from the drafted of the amendment himself.
One guy who helped draft it. Claiming that one guy wrote the 14th is patently dishonest.
Why do you continue to embarrass yourself here buddy?
It doesn't matter what the historical evidence says.
Birthright citizenship needs to end, one way or another.
yeah, cause the law and the constitution don't mean anything if you disagree with it
Especially that being a "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" part huh?
Backed definitively by the CRA1866 with "and not subject to any foreign power".
You'd have a better case if you found an immigrant from a deserted island than any coming from an established nation.
"Subject to" means you are expected to follow the laws of whatever government you are subject to.
"Jurisdiction thereof" refers to the government that can arrest you.
So those phrases you quoted apply to diplomats and others who have immunity from US law. They don't have to follow our laws and our police cannot arrest them.
That cannot be said of immigrants, legal or illegal. That means that everything Trump is arguing, and everything you are defending, is a lie.
Now that I've straightened this out I expect you to not learn a damn thing because, like all partisan monkeys, you judge everything by who, not what.
You're confusing being "subjected-to" with being a "subject" of/to.
The 14A doesn't say "and subjected-to the jurisdiction" because why would it? As-if it's not a given you're subjected-to following the laws of a nation you're in (which has been demonstrated by other here that even that misconceived take isn't entirely true).
Asking what that phrase is even doing there and topped off with CRA1866 from whence it was based stating, "and not subject to any foreign power" and the UN-feathered Birth-right citizenship stance has nothing at all to back it.
And if you have any question to what old language "subject to" that is also cleared up by the CRA1866. How is someone in 'this' jurisdiction 'subject to' a foreign power (or laws as you so carelessly claim)? It means "a subject of" in today's language that is blatantly obvious not only by logical common-sense but also by the very Author and his floor speech when pitching the 14A.
You're confusing being "subjected-to" with being a "subject" of/to.
No, I'm not. Here, I'll use them both in a sentence.
"I have no choice but to be subject to the laws of the United States, but being subjected to your weapons-grade stupidity is voluntary."
Those are all different from "subject of" which refers to people who have a king or queen. For example if you are a Brit then you are a subject of King Charles III.
This is how completely retarded you are sarc.
At any given location you may be under jurisdiction of multiple entities. City, state, federal.
You seem to be ignorant to this fact. You continue to refuse to understand what jurisdiction means here or even, as pointed out above, subject of.
Even in Ark v Wong the SCOTUS said parents in the US from China had loyalty to China, not the US. So they were not under full jurisdiction. They, for example, have a right to Chinese consulates if arrested, subject to Chinese legislation and taxes, etc.
LMAO...
Minus the fact nobodies says they're
"subject to the laws of the United States"
... because it is questionably incoherent ...
The proper language would be they're being
"subjected to the laws of the United States"
A spin and a miss........ You're out! 🙂
The legal phrase is "subject to the law."
No one says "subjected to the law." That's just something you made up.
And it's just dumb. Google "subjected to the law" and all your results will say "subject to the law." And every one of those results will contradict your ignorant nonsense.
Fuck, man. How do you remember to breathe?
Wut?
https://ludwig.guru/s/subjected+to+the+law
You should really stop relying on the link names from the 1st page of Google as the source of all your beliefs.
If you cross the Maine state line and new Hampshire cites you for public intoxication, are you now a resident of New Hampshire?
lol... You ended up with the same link as I did 🙂
https://ludwig.guru/s/subjected+to+the+law
The phrase 'subjected to the law' is correct and usable in written English.
You can use the phrase when referring to any situation in which an individual or group is bound by or must adhere to the law.
Exactly the definition you're trying to improperly associate to "subject to"
"subject to the law" comes from Galatians 5:18 Biblical Hermeneutics where "it simply means that we are subject to or led by the Spirit and we are not subject to or led by the flesh/law"
Exactly in the context of what being a subject of the spirit or the law would entail.
If you two came up with the same thing then that's proof that it's wrong.
Your retarded assumption is Google is the only valid search engine and not the biased search crap it now produces. Your devotion to it explains a lot.
https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20241031-how-google-tells-you-what-you-want-to-hear
https://www.nbcnews.com/think/opinion/google-search-algorithms-are-not-impartial-they-are-biased-just-ncna849886
And a video since you hate reading.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf-htF0nRno
No wonder you're so fucking retarded. You dont even know how to manipulate the Google search engine to return what you actually want. Lol.
https://brians.wsu.edu/2016/05/31/subject-to-subjected-to/
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subject%20to
https://grammarist.com/usage/subject-to-vs-subjected-to/
Fuck you.
Oh. That proves the term doesn't exist. You proved so much sarc. Lol.
Fucking moron.
"For example if you are a Brit then you are a subject of King Charles III."
Meaning you are owing allegiance to King Charles III, and regardless of how or why you got into the US, your kids born while in the US do not automatically become citizens under the explicit meaning originally held when the 14th was written and the final wording agreed upon.
That is where Wong went wrong. It eschewed the explicit wording to expand it beyond the congressional record. However, it Wong also exposed a modern challenge in the way it did so.
There are two basic ways to dispense with Wong. One, of course, is a full overruling declaring it is inconsistent with the explicitly stated meaning under congressional record. It wouldn't be the first time that has happened. Such a case would also re-establish the allegiance test to ensure agreement with the 14th.
However, there is another path: narrow but maintain Wong. Wong's parents were lawfully domiciled residents, incapable of legally becoming citizens due to their allegiance to the Emperor. Thus, a ruling could narrow "resident alien" to the modern usage, excluding those who do not qualify as a "resident alien."
In either case, a legal argument that court cases interpreting it to mean mere geographical presences renders the clause *meaningless* thus providing impetus to clarify and refine. As to which way the SCOTUS currently would go, I can see a decision to narrow it happening. There would be 3 solid full overturn or strongly limit Won justices if the originalist arguments are made.
Then there are 2-3 who could support narrowing Wong - either to legal resident alien as defined in immigration law and art today, or on the allegiances aspect.
Legislatively, the Congress gets to define what jurisdiction and allegiance means. Here is an example of what such a law could look like:
Definitions
(a) Subject to the jurisdiction thereof, as used in Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, shall be interpreted consistent with the original public meaning of the term as adopted in 1866.
(b) For the purposes of this Act, the phrase shall exclude:
Persons born in the United States whose parents at the time of birth:
(i) Are not United States citizens or nationals; and
(ii) Are not lawfully admitted for permanent residence; and
(iii) Have not formally renounced allegiance to any foreign sovereign; and
(iv) Are not serving in the armed forces of the United States.
Persons born to individuals enjoying diplomatic immunity, consular immunity, or equivalent immunity under international law.
Persons born to foreign nationals who are temporarily present in the United States under:
(i) Non-immigrant visas;
(ii) Parole or deferred action;
(iii) Unauthorized presence or entry in violation of 8 U.S.C. § 1325 or § 1227.
Citizenship Limitation
(a) A person born in the United States shall not be deemed a citizen at birth under Section 1 of the Fourteenth Amendment unless at least one parent at the time of birth:
(i) Is a U.S. citizen or national;
(ii) Is lawfully admitted for permanent residence and maintains domicile in the United States; or
(iii) Has otherwise obtained lawful immigration status and has renounced all prior foreign allegiance through a recognized legal process.
Clarification of Statutory Citizenship Provisions
Section 301 of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. § 1401) is amended to conform with the limitations set forth in this Act.
and the usual severability hatches, etc..
That would be mostly in line with Wong and the fully in line with the original, clearly documented, meaning and intent behind the 14th.
Introducing and passing such a bill, particularly including the historical and original documentation references to ensure it is part of any court challenge, a challenge getting to SCOTUS would likely fail. Why?
It keys off the textualist/originalist justices - of which there are 4-5. Of those 1-2 don't like making sweeping changes, but this wouldn't actually do that. SCOTUS overturning Wong could potentially cause a swatch of existing people declared citizens due to Wong to be uncertain. However, as there is no ex post facto laws allowed, this law would take effect and apply to everything and everyone after its effective date - thus removing any concern about citizenship a decade ago. As a result that would be less of a concern for the others, resulting most likely in preserving the example law as written above. Of course, how it got worded could change that outcome.
The irony of Wong is that they actually state in the ruling the parents were not under the jurisdiction of the US but under allegiance to the emporer of China.
Hon, are you getting paid by the word?
And the retardation continues.
As the author of the amendment said, jurisdiction means full jurisdiction.
Illegals are not under Jurisdiction for:
Voting.
Jury duty.
Paying US taxes if working in a foreign nation.
Civil service.
Use of US consulates and embassies.
You continue to repeat a largely debunked and retarded talking point.
If I get a jaywalking citation while on a vacation, I'm not suddenly a resident of that town retard.
“ As the author of the amendment said, jurisdiction means full jurisdiction.”
There wasn’t just one author. There were many.
Stop embarrassing yourself buddy. You're getting more retarded than Molly. I can also point out to you multiple temporal laws and acts that assume the same jurisdiction beliefs retard.
Or getting drafted...
Fortunately, rational people can look at the transcripts of the actual debates over the amendment and what the people who actually wrote it said about it. Something this article fails to do.
Senator Lyman Trumbull, a key figure in the drafting of the Fourteenth Amendment, provided a clear explanation of the phrase “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” during the Senate debates.
In the Congressional Globe, 39th Congress, 1st Session, page 2893, Trumbull stated:
“What do we mean by ‘subject to the jurisdiction of the United States’? Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means.”
Pretty clear and specific. If you "owe allegiance to" - ie. are a citizen of - another nation, you do not count as being "subject to the jurisdiction of the United States."
He elaborated that this phrase was intended to exclude individuals who owed allegiance to another sovereign, such as foreign diplomats or members of sovereign Native American tribes. Trumbull emphasized that only those who were fully subject to U.S. laws and authority—meaning they owed no allegiance to any other government—were to be granted citizenship under the amendment.
Nor was he a lone voice. Nor was it limited to the 14th's debates, it continued in the Civil Rights Act of 1866 debates and discussion.
Congressman John Bingham said that "...every human being born within the jurisdiction of the United States of parents not owing allegiance to any foreign sovereignty is, in the language of your Constitution itself, a natural born citizen."
Again, that allegiance to foreign sovereignty thing pops up.
“This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens […] but will include every other class of persons.” Sen Jacob Howard.
Now, as to the article's use of Conness, that is some seriously poor attempt at sleight of hand there. Conness was not an author of it, not part of the Joint Committee on Reconstruction that drafted it, and not representative of the amendment itself.
Even further, even the quoted parts of Conness tells you *he did not agree with the amendment* even though he voted for it. Why? Because under his interpretation even children born to foreign diplomats or soldiers while on American soil would be citizens - something nobody of merit denies is not what it says.
When you look at the actual context of Conness' statement, he wasn't actually saying that foreign allegiances shouldn't be taken into account. He was specifically responding to Cowan 's concern that it could include Chinese children - Conness' was opposed to a *racial* aspect of exclusion.
I can say that because he made no attempt to amend it to remove the jurisdiction aspect - which had been made plain and clear to mean those not owing any allegiance to another sovereignty.
When the people who wrote it tell you exactly what it means, in no uncertain terms, ignoring them and pretending they didn't exist to quote someone else who simply voted for it is dishonest at best. And anyone doing that and claiming to be a journalist should be rightly seen as not worthy of trust on the topic - regardless of whatever side. Because they are cherry picking claims to support their personal belief while ignoring the actual assertions of meaning by the people responsible for the wording.
I bet you any of us could go find some congress critter saying good things about the PATRIOT ACT and do the same thing. Is that really the standard for Reason these days?
However, in any originalist reading, whether one is here legally or illegally *is not relevant*. What matters is their legal allegiance. If, for example, a would-be immigrant completes some formal and recognized process for renouncing their allegiance *prior* to going to the US (again, legally or not) thus losing citizenship, the original meaning of the 14th, according to the people who wrote it, would include them, but not if they didn't.
The author would have been better served going to SCOTUS cases, but instead chose to make a poor attempt at pretending to give an originalist reading to support their narrative.
“ Senator Lyman Trumbull, a key figure in the drafting of the Fourteenth Amendment, provided a clear explanation of the phrase “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” during the Senate debates.”
Yes, that was one person’s reading. It wasn’t the prevailing vision.
What mechanism do you use to determine the "prevailing vision?"
Nelson starts from a Marxist open borders argument and then picks and chooses facts to fit that vision. He ignores other laws that would not have been required if it was interpreted as he claims.
So if the parents' allegiance was paramount; why did the operative language apply specifically to the child? "All persons born..."
Don't even get me started on hundreds of thousands of Irish and other white european immigrants who just showed the f up in waves and started having babies and nobody ever questioning whether those babies born on US soil were US citizens or not.
"or naturalize and subject to"....
Nice Try concatenating the US Constitution and filling in your own self-made blanks.
Old Trick. Just like the Taxation clause and the General Welfare of the United States (government).
The US Constitution wasn't written so criminalistic people could cut it up and paste it whatever they want however they see fit.
Those Irish were subjects of the King of England! And the hatred spouted against them was every bit as bad as that from the nativist bigots posting comments here.
One Irish-American, Eamon de Valera, born in New York City, would return to Ireland and eventually become Taoiseach and President of Ireland.
"Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means.”"
That isn't what it means, but lets say you are right.
Trump would no longer be a US citizen. He is eligible for a British passport because his mother was born in Britain. There are tens of millions of dual nationals in the US and you would strip them of their citizenship. Nazi Germany and Apartheid South Africa didn't strip citizenship from as many people.
"not subject to the jurisdiction" doesn't mean what you think it does. It means that you can't be arrested, prosecuted, or sued. If Trump wins this case, every illegal immigrant will have to be released from detention, jail, or prison. Any illegal immigrant who steals from you can not be forced by the courts to return the stolen goods. In fact, Trump XO would even extend that exemption to anyone here LEGALLY on a temporary visa and maybe even to permanent resident non-citizens.
Yes, that’s what you democrats believe.
It has never mattered what the law and the constitution "mean". Throughout history the courts have just back-filled their intended outcomes with whatever interpretation they could make up that fit the scenario.
See Roe v. Wade for one of the most egregious examples.
Obviously you have not read the Roe v Wade which goes into detail about ensuring the 4A. Nor have you read the Dobbs ruling that doesn't even mention the 4A (or any part of the US Constitution for that matter). It just says Roe v Wade was a mistake because 'moral standards', 'drugs' and 'prostitution'.
If Roe v Wade was an egregious example then Dobbs was that times 100.
But even more surprising is they totally forgot the 13A which has just as-much if not more impact on the issue as the 4A. But of course mentioning the 13A would void State's ability from enacting post-viable fetal-ejection bans as well. As-if the State politicians had any substantial authority over such a personal matter.
As I've said before. Roe v Wade was already too Pro-Life.
Dobbs was down-right power-madness run-amuck.
Where little power granted is never-enough for power-mad mobsters.
Would that then make the now non-citizen children illegal immigrants? What about their children? We would be creating a permanent underclass.
they can apply for citizenship like anyone else who isnt american and wants to become a citizen.
Permanent residency with Greencards and H1bs and student visas =/= citizenship. It's not hard to understand.
Illegal immigrants can't apply for citizenship.
Sure they can. They go home, and then apply legally. If accepted, they can come back.
It is for Tony.
In the vast majority of countries, citizenship at birth is determined by the citizenship of the parents. Nearly every country that offers birthright citizenship is located in North or South America. According to sociologist John Skrentny, the European powers that colonized the Americas established lenient naturalization laws here to grow their colonies and overpower native populations.
The Citizenship Clause in the Fourteenth Amendment states that “[a]ll persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.” We seem to miss the 'subject to the jurisdiction thereof!' Illegals are not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S.! They are still citizens of their country of origin!
That's the point.
"everyone who disagrees with me has a purely evil motive"
Not everyone. Just Trump defenders who are the very definition of "bad faith".
Does good faith mean never making an informed argument while calling your enemies evil?
It’s all about Trump with him. The only other thing that matters to him is the alcohol that fuels his impotent democrat rage.
He openly admits his sole source of information is link names from Google search engine.
A bad faith argument to Sarc is just one he’s losing badly.
It's also the ones he pretends he can't see.
So all of his arguments then.
Who do you consider a Trump Defender and who do you consider to be arguing this is good faith?
I draw a distinction between a Trump supporter and a Trump defender. Supporters are capable of admitting that he's not an infallible god. Defenders on the other hand are cultists who suspend reality and replace it with whatever garbage he is saying that week. I think you're smart enough to see the difference.
Nobody here thinks is is an infallible god dumdum. Every one of the people you hate have criticized his actions when deserved.
You on the other hand think Trump is Hitler and scream and froth at the mouth, criticizing every action against him while defending the lefts very same actions.
And he makes EVERYTHING about Trump.
Thanks, but that doesn’t really answer who you think is arguing against birthright citizenship in good faith.
Tony, this is all way too complicated for you. So why don’t you just take a lap.
NOT allowing me to break into your house uninvited and claim residency is "creating a permanent underclass"! /s
Leftards ... Truly believe they're entitled to anything and everything under the sun and nothing has to be earned or invited. The most selfish, self-entitled, criminally minded, P.O.S. you'll ever meet. It's no wonder prison walls are lined 70% with them or that they've bankrupted the entire nation with endless consumption and created zero-value for that endless consumption.
It's always the same BIG picture.
[WE] Identify-as so [WE] get to TAKE whatever [WE] want.
Hey man. If you're allowed to kick someone out of your property that means they are a legal resident of your property. Catch 22 gets you again.
"[WE] Identify-as so [WE] get to TAKE whatever [WE] want."
That is Trump and Musk.
Creating a permanent underclass is Trump's goal. Did you see him in the United Arab Emirates? Only 11 percent of the population are citizens there. Trump would strip citizenship from tens of millions of people born in the US who can't prove that their parents...and their parents' parents....ad infinitum were US Citizens. I am one of those; even though I am 12th generation born in the US I can't even prove that my parents were my parents because my birth certificate does not have their names on it and even if it did I could not prove that they were citizens rather than someone with the same name who was here on a temporary visa.
Totally agree!
We are entirely ready to accept the provision proposed in this constitutional amendment, that the children born here of Mongolian parents shall be declared by the Constitution of the United States to be entitled to civil rights and to equal protection before the law with others."
Unless Reason is prepared to say that being a noncitizen strips a person of all their civil rights, this statement is not in support of citizenship. It is in support of equal protection, which is something entirely different. It is pretty obvious that this quote has been taken out of context.
That's the best type of context and a favorite of reddit and the left.
The Dred Scott case said that a non-citizen had no civil rights the due process clause of the 5th Amendment notwithstanding. You are the one taking this out of context. Non-citizens have lost their rights to government benefits their taxes pay for already and Trump would take away their childrens' citizenship.
During the recent oral arguments in Trump v. Casa, Solicitor General John Sauer repeatedly defended President Donald Trump's executive order stripping birthright citizenship from millions of U.S.-born children on the grounds that the 14th Amendment "extended citizenship to the children of former slaves, not to people who are unlawfully or temporarily present in the United States."
Wait a sec. The Trumpistas are arguing to strip citizenship from existing people who are presently citizens, not just for the yet-to-be--born? How exactly does that work? Revoke your real-id? Invalidate previously cast votes? What about security clearances? You were a citizen, now you're not. FYTW.
If that's accurate, there's a special kind of evil at work here.
Why is evil to rectify the recent abuse of birthright citizenship? Those people can apply for citizenship like anyone else. There's nothing "evil" about it. American citizenship is not a human right.
Also, it would just change the law going forward. It would not undo their citizenship, that was granted by the policy at the time.
Nobody needs to read the actual facts of the case.
Democrats base everything on narratives and propaganda. Not facts.
"Those people can apply for citizenship like anyone else. "
There is nothing in Trump's XO to indicate that they could. Ever.
Because it is a lie. The executive order said going forward after a certain date. It is akin to the DACA ruling which stopped it for future applicants but maintained it for those already granted the benefit.
But yes. Citizenship can be stripped if granted through green card process.
https://apnews.com/5a933ebca15a5060a848d7c11d2dcac9
You guys got me confused, so I had to look it up. From the oral argument transcript linked in the article:
Trumpistas are actually trying to strip citizenship from living, already-born people, not just births in the future. As in "You were a full citizen, not your not. Here's you green card. Behave yourself and we'll let stay. FYTW"
I stand by my statement. Anyone who thinks this is remotely acceptable is a special kind of evil.
Okay. Stand with stupid. Why bother with actual primary sources.
(b) Subsection (a) of this section shall apply only to persons who are born within the United States after 30 days from the date of this order.
https://public-inspection.federalregister.gov/2025-02007.pdf
I think it is evil to make moral judgements of others based on false information even when you're told your information is false. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You're intentionally misusing the quote as to the meaning of the 14th in replacement for what the EO actually stated. Stop getting your news from MSNBC.
I'm quoting the transcript of the oral arguments made before SOTUS on May 15, 2025. This is from the first link in the article. There was no rebuttal from the defendants.
MSNBC, Fox, etc., has nothing to do with it. Please don't make assumptions.
You refused to read the actual fucking order. They were discussing the context of the 14th amendment, not the actual EO. SCOTUS has already dealt with a similar issue under DACA where they allowed the program to end but required continuance for those who benefitted as I told you above. You then made a moral judgement because you're intentionally ignorant to what the EO stated. You won't even admit you were wrong.
Lol.
Jesse, do you mean to say that yet another democrat commenter here misrepresented the facts in a disingenuous exercise in democrat propaganda?
Seems to be the primary style.of argumentation of the reddit left.
If you want to know what out of context quote will show up here next just follow r/politics
There was no rebuttal from the defendants.
So what? The actual order is what carries the day not what the Plaintiffs lied and claimed it was.
Even if true; since when does an executive order dictate to a Court what the US Constitution means? Is it not emphatically the province of the judicial dept to 'say what the law is?' This isn't the president telling a cabinet head how to interpret a vague statute. It's the president declaring what the US Constitution means; in contravention of prior precedent and actual federal practice for over 100years. The executive order is lawless and patently unconstitutional...which the lower courts have found. And is why the US DOJ didn't appeal the merits just the scope of the injunction. They were afraid to be smacked down by the US Sup Ct because they know their argument is a loser.
"...Trumpistas are actually trying to strip citizenship from living, already-born people, not just births in the future..."
TDS-addled shit-piles are to be ignored. Fuck off and die, ass-wipe.
“Repeat a lie often enough and it becomes the truth.”
In this case its repeat a lie often enough and you might get gullible people to believe you.
"also our common law history"
This deserves some discussion. The blithering idiots of MAGA think that the 14th Amendment created birthright citizenship. As you correctly point out, it is something that existing in English Common Law dating back to the Middle Ages, and confirmed in court decisions going back to at least 1608. It is ironic that the racists and nativists who passionately hate Spanish speakers want to repeal something that is pretty much unique to English traditions.
The evil was flooding the country with illegals that disrespected our sovereignty!
Why would anyone go through the cost, time and pain of applying LEGALLY for citizenship if they only have to arrive inside the country, give birth to a child and then be allowed to remain, get a job, and completely thwart the legal means of becoming citizens? And looking back at the last 4 years it seems the DNC wants too allow dropping your child off in the US and the Biden admin would provide for this child and also then arrange for the parents to be brought in to join the illegal child, because the country they came from is not as prosperous or as safe as the US even though the claim of asylum or refugee will be denied by immigration judges?
This is the entire point. Drop an anchor baby, and viola! the entire family are now citizens. Entitled to welfare, free Obama phones, SS, voting, and anything else the DNC can conjure up.
I'm quite sure this was the intention of the 14A when crafted. As long as they give birth on US soil, all other immigration laws are null and void. This applies to every family member as well.
There were no laws restricting immigration in 1868, you fool. There is nothing in the Constitution that gives the federal government the power to restrict it.
Id be fine with birthright citizenship if we had a moratorium on public assistance for all first and second generation immigrants. Be productive or go home.
This. This. This.
Also, a moratorium on public assistance for anyone else, forever.
Indeed. +100000. Of course within that very premise resides filtered immigration done the right way.
Non-citizens are already ineligible for almost all public benefit programs.
But naturalized citizen Elon Musk is eligible for billions of dollars in grift and you don't object to that.
This article is TOTALLY wrong, read the amicus curiae of Dr. John C. Eastman and others from the Claremont Institute's Center for Constitutional Jurisprudence
And don't miss the LOGIC clincher: If someone with so much effort education and prestige can be so wrong, why are you leaning on anybody's opinion ???????????????
John Eastman? Seriously? The guy who insisted that the 2020 election was stolen and faced disbarment over his unethical behavior? That’s the guy you’re going with?
Lol. Imagine appeal to liberal lawfare as your argument. God damn man.
If they meant "this is just a temporary thing that applies only to the children of freed slaves, and after there's no more children of freed slaves then there's no more birthright citizenship" then why didn't they just say that? The obvious answer is that that's not what they meant.
They did. Because unlike you they understand what's words meant. Under jurisdiction was understood at the time. They didn't expect retards and dishonest leftists to twist their words into having no meaning.
And yet, according to their words, they didn’t.
Yet another false claim.
Why do you Molly think idiots repeating something false makes it true?
As long as they give birth on US soil, no matter how they arrived, all other immigration laws are null and void. This was the intention of the 14A? In 1866?
Yes. The intention of 14A was everyone born in the US was a citizen other then Indians and children of diplomats. Also there were no immigration laws in 1868.
I missed the but Indian part in the 14a. Can you cite that clause? Oh! The jurisdiction clause. Glad we agree.
Incorrect. The people who wrote the final amendment were explicit.
The initial drafts said "All persons born in the United States are citizens…"
But that is not what passed. it was narrowed to those subject to the jurisdiction. And what that meant was made crystal clear on the Senate floor:
“What do we mean by ‘subject to the jurisdiction of the United States’? Not owing allegiance to anybody else. That is what it means.”
See that allegiance part? That is what it means. He elaborated that this phrase was intended to exclude individuals who owed allegiance to another sovereign, such as foreign diplomats or members of sovereign Native American tribes. Trumbull emphasized that only those who were fully subject to U.S. laws and authority—meaning they owed no allegiance to any other government—were to be granted citizenship under the amendment, distinguishing between mere presence in the U.S. and complete political allegiance to the nation.
Not only that but this mirrors the language of the Civil Rights Act of 1866 which also excluded those who owed allegiance to any other sovereignty (and the same people were involved).
Also, the Steerage Act of 1819 was an immigration law. The 1864 amendments to the Passenger Act of 1855 were also immigration law. So it would be incorrect to claim there were none. They didn't look like they did starting in 1875, but they did exist.
You would strip citizenship from tens of millions of dual national Americans. Nazi.
According to Trump and Trump defenders, the 14A only applied to children of freed slaves. After there were no more freed slaves having children, that part of the 14A ceased to be relevant. At that point only children born to two citizens were considered to be citizens.
You don't think that's absurd? That they amended the Constitution for one generation of children and after that fuck you?
Shut up Shreek and shame on you for stealing Sarcasmic's handle. You sick fuck.
Now they’re doing that to each other? I shouldn’t be surprised that a sexual predator like Pluggo engages in such shitty behavior.
According to the DNC and DNC defenders, the 2A only applied to militias. After militias were replaced by National Guard, to 2A ceases to be relevant for individuals. At that point only government agents have the right to keep and bear arms. Even after the Heller and Miller rulings. Absurdity, indeed.
Based on the democrat interpretation of the 2A, IDGAF what they (and you) think about any other amendments.
The argument that 2A applies only to militias has historical backing. And also the first words are "A well regulated Militia".
Hey tony... regulated in that phrase means equipped and trained, not controlled by government. Lol.
Look up what an army regular is.
No way you’re a PhD and don’t know what a fucking Prefatory Clause is.
Have you seen the state of "Higher
EducationCredentialization" lately?lol, fair point.
"the 2A only applied to militias"
It clearly was about militias. Everyone knew about the 1708 Scottish Militia Act, and Queen Anne Stuart's veto of it. (It is actually the very last time in history that a British monarch vetoed a law passed by Parliament.) The Founding Fathers wanted to prevent another Queen Anne Stuart.
And that was what courts ruled for most of US history. United States v. Cruikshank 1875 said that while the federal government could not infringe on a right to bear arms, state governments had that power. Presser v. Illinois 1886 said the same thing. United States v. Miller 1939 went further and upheld a federal government restriction on guns because they weren't used by militias. United States v. Miller was a unanimous decision written by Justice James McReynolds, one of the most obnoxious far right Justices ever to serve on the court, someone MAGA would love today. McReynolds and the equally reactionary Justice Pierce Butler had dissented in Helvering v. Davis, which upheld Social Security; the two of them insisted that Social Security was unconstitutional. Barrett v. United States 1975 upheld a law prohibiting convicted felons from owning guns; the pro-2A crowd would love for every drug kingpin and terrorist wannabe to have unlimited arsenals.
The late Chief Justice Warren Burger, no liberal he, often spoke on how the idea that the Second Amendment created an individual right to a firearm was a fiction.
You know people who aren't retarded can just read the arguments without your retarded misinterpretation of it right?
Note that Cowan and Conness both agreed on the meaning of birthright citizenship.
Is that how a debate works? One guy asks a question and Damon Rootard 150 yrs. later interprets the asking of a question as foregone conclusion into agreement?
For those who care to traipse through the reality of the debate rather than blindly consume Root's tired, selective rehashing of a rehashing of the debate it starts on page 2890 (12 in the pdf) of Root's source. And Root's omission is more egregious and dishonest a re-framing as what I pointed out above. Most notably and once again, Damon Rootard and the other writers at Reatard Magazine avoid the other facts and definitions that allow them to elide the historical/contextual inaccuracy of their narrative. Notably, Cowan and Conness speak rather strictly of invasion and/or displacement and make no mention of welfare. Additionally, the contest between Cowan and Conness arguably speaks against Roots interpretation as Conness is actually defending California's immigration from the Pennsylvania legislator's interpretation.
All of which make Root's seemingly foregone interpretation actually less foregone in the later context of, once again, things like Congress granting citizenship to the people of territories acquired after the Treaty of Paris, immigrants, including pregnant women, being turned away from Ellis Island for unable to identify a dependent or avoid hardship, etc.
This isn't the first time the handful of sentences in this debate were taken out of all context and used to eclipse the larger historical narrative that directly refutes the retcon.
Do you think Damon has ever listened to a session at SCOTUS?
What if one of the founding fathers objected to the second amendment by speculating that "this will allow someone to own cannons and warships" and it passed anyways? Does that mean in modern times, we can own RPGs and tanks? We don't have to debate the original intent of the amendment?
Moreover, there is a difference between unpopular immigrant and illegal immigrant. Perhaps Johnson and his allies used the term interchangeably, and how the law to applies to illegals specifically was mentioned. But I'm not seeing that here. At the time, the law was meant to apply to slaves made citizens and Chinese who were legally allowed to work here. The backdrop to this law being created is crystal clear.
Historical evidence would strongly suggest that birthright citizenship was used mostly to settle status of stateless persons or subjects born in colonies. There's no reason to believe that congress did not follow this model and intended for any persons entering the nation to produce American citizens. What's the point of "not subject to foreign powers" line?
At the time, the law was meant to apply to slaves made citizens and Chinese who were legally allowed to work here. The backdrop to this law being created is crystal clear.
The quotes Root cherry picks specifically defends the Chinese as laborious and industrious and relates that relatively few Chinese women come to CA. Which, the adults wouldn't get citizenship and the infants wouldn't be laborious and industrious. The specific issue he raises is about how Chinese weren't allowed to testify in courts to their own or others' defense.
Conness even, in a somewhat backhandedly and racially neutral refutation to Roots' idiocy, goes on to detail how the State (of CA) authorities disregarded Jefferson Davis' authority, hunted down "southern brethren" and "caused them to be hanged". If TX, AZ, and NM (and others) were able to disregard the foreign authority of and "cause to be hanged" anyone they felt was egregiously guilty of highway robbery, there wouldn't be a debate in the first place.
"What if one of the founding fathers objected to the second amendment by speculating that "this will allow someone to own cannons and warships" and it passed anyways? Does that mean in modern times, we can own RPGs and tanks? We don't have to debate the original intent of the amendment?"
Well .. citizens were not only allowed to own those back then, they did. Lexington and Concorde happened when the British suspected they had cannon there. And then there is the Letters of Marque and Reprisal which make a solid case that the government expected private citizens to keep having those. Oh, and the US government selling fully equipped warships to citizens after the war of 1812.
If it was intended to be perpetual, why did it say "are citizens" and not "shall be citizens"?
REASON must think you are lazy.
The Claremont Amicus Curiae specifically cites this as clearly WRONG
The 1866 Civil Rights Act, which the 14th Amendment was designed to codify and constitutionalize, clearly excluded children who, through their parents, were subject to a foreign power.......................................... 17
Except that has never been the way that the 14th Amendment has ever been interpreted. For example, children of Irish immigrants were given US citizenship at birth even though their parents still owed loyalty to Queen Victoria. Ditto German immigrants and whatever German state they hailed from. Etc. etc.
Got a cite for that, TDS-addled shitbag?
MONGOL CITIZENS! Perish the thought!
My nephew IS a so-called Mongoloid, and he's a US citizen. He votes every election, too.
Mongolia is on my bucket list. Inner and Outer both. Ulan Bator is lovely this time of year. I wonder if the senator has ever been.
OK, let's compromise. Every person in the US illegally, including those whose status has recently changed, will be expelled rapidly--and no more whining about process or compassion. And their US-born whelps can stay.
Most of them are working in the food industry and the grifting farmers will never allow it -- even though Trump is going to put the farmers on the dole again so they won't need farm workers.
charliehall replies with a bullshit claim. And zero cite.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
America may not be as libertarian as you'd like, but it's more libertarian than most places. Unless it stops being one of the few countries in the world with birthright citizenship, that will end.
Nothing is more important to the preservation of liberty than having a people who believe in it. Without that, it's doomed.
Every country on the continent of North America, and most in South America, have birthright citizenship.
Lack of birthright citizenship is the main reason most of the Middle East is a mess right now. Fourth generation permanent residents with no possibility of citizenship for themselves or their children.
"Every country on the continent of North America, and most in South America, have birthright citizenship."
That would be a total of two, one of which is a socialist hell-hole. Eat shit and die, asshole.
"Lack of birthright citizenship is the main reason most of the Middle East is a mess right now. Fourth generation permanent residents with no possibility of citizenship for themselves or their children."
That is an amazing claim by a TDS-addled lying pile of lefty shit, absent any cite at all.
Get reamed with a barb-wire-wrapped broomstick and then fuck off and die, shit bag.
Just like Cowan and Conness, Johnson also understood that birthright citizenship would apply to the U.S.-born children of unpopular immigrants.
That was then. This is now. Now illegals are rustlers, cut throats, murderers, bounty hunters, desperados, mugs, pugs, thugs, nitwits, halfwits, dimwits, vipers, snipers, con men, Indian agents, Mexican bandits, muggers, buggerers, bushwhackers, hornswogglers, horse thieves, bull dykes, train robbers, bank robbers, ass-kickers, shit-kickers and Methodists.
Anyone arguing that any of those sorts should have the right to drop their attainted spawn on holy soil and have their attainted spawn become American is - well probably a communist too.
BTW - that word attainted means something in the Constitution. A bill of attainder is unconstitutional even for cases of treason. Meaning that the sins of the parent do NOT pass down to the child. A parent who is illegally residing in the US does not pass that condition to their children.
Even the condition of 'slavery' is merely a legal condition. It is not about race. It is about the change in the law that a child of a slave will not be a slave. A child of an illegal will not be an illegal.
JFucked posts more sophist bullshit. Fuck off and die, asshole.
40% of illegal immigrants have committed no crime at all, and for most of the rest, the only crime they have committed was misdemeanor illegal entry, which is almost never prosecuted -- and those who have been here five years or longer can never be prosecuted.
Donald Trump, however, is a 34x convicted felon, and I could make an equally long list of pejorative adjectives that apply to him.
"40% of illegal immigrants have committed no crime at all, and for most of the rest, the only crime they have committed was misdemeanor illegal entry, which is almost never prosecuted -- and those who have been here five years or longer can never be prosecuted."
So 100% have committed crimes. Thanks, steaming pile of lefty shit.
"Donald Trump, however, is a 34x convicted felon, and I could make an equally long list of pejorative adjectives that apply to him."
Trump was convicted of the elevation of one crime to 34, and that crime amounted to a late library book return. Did you think that your fucking idiotic claim would be taken here as other than the whine of a loser TDS-addled lying pile of shit, TDS-addled lying pile of shit?
Get reamed with a barb-wire-wrapped broom stick, and then fuck off and die, ass-wipe.