Republicans Want To Redefine Obscenity
A new bill would ban sharing visual content that might "arouse" or "titillate."

Sen. Mike Lee (R–Utah) wants to redefine obscenity in a way that could render all sorts of legal sexual content illegal. His proposal would make the definition of obscenity so broad that it could ban even the most mild pornography, and possibly even more.
Lee and Rep. Mary Miller (R–Ill.), who introduced a companion bill in the House, have made no secret of the fact that the Interstate Obscenity Definition Act (IODA) is intended to get porn off the internet. "Our bill updates the legal definition of obscenity for the internet age so this content can be taken down and its peddlers prosecuted," Lee said as he introduced the legislation.
But his proposed definition of obscenity is "so broad" that the TV show Game of Thrones could fall under its purview, suggests Ricci Joy Levy, president and CEO of the Woodhull Freedom Foundation.
The bill makes a mockery of the First Amendment.
"It really struck me that there's nothing about that definition that I think would survive constitutional review," says Robert Corn-Revere, chief counsel at the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression.
You are reading Sex & Tech, from Elizabeth Nolan Brown. Get more of Elizabeth's sex, tech, bodily autonomy, law, and online culture coverage.
Contemporary Community Standards
Obscenity is one of a few categories of exceptions to First Amendment–protected speech. While federal law doesn't ban the mere possession of obscene materials, unless they involve minors, it does ban possessing or producing obscene material with the intent to sell or distribute it, along with selling, sending, shipping, receiving, importing, or transporting obscene material, or engaging in a business that does.
There is no federal law that strictly defines what is considered obscenity. To make a judgement, courts rely on what's become known as the Miller test. Its three prongs were established by the U.S. Supreme Court in the 1973 case Miller v. California (and clarified further in 1987's Pope v. Illinois).
Under the Miller test, something obscene must appeal to "prurient interests," depict or describe sexual acts in a "patently offensive" way, and, when taken as a whole, lack "serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value." If it fails to meet any of these prongs, it's not obscene.
Moreover, determining whether something lacks value requires applying a "reasonable person" standard, and determining if something appeals to prurient interests and is offensive requires asking "whether the average person, applying contemporary adult community standards," would think so. This is supposed to ensure that we're not declaring things criminally obscene just because some vocal minority of people might think they are, or because of standards that are no longer in touch with the times.
"It is neither realistic nor constitutionally sound to read the First Amendment as requiring that the people of Maine or Mississippi accept public depiction of conduct found tolerable in Las Vegas, or New York City," wrote Chief Justice Warren E. Burger for the majority in Miller, explicitly rejecting the idea that there should be one national standard for obscenity law.
Lee wants to change this.
Redefining Obscenity
Lee's Interstate Obscenity Definition Act would "clarify the legal definition of 'obscenity' for all states," a press release from Lee's office states. It would also do away with a definition of obscenity that relies on what Lee's office's calls "ever-changing and elusive public opinion."
Basically, Lee wants to replace the average person's opinion with his own.
And his own opinion seems to be that virtually any depiction of human sexuality is obscene.
Under Lee's proposal, obscenity would include any picture, graphic image file, film, videotape, or other visual depiction that satisfies three conditions. Two of these are similar to the prongs of the Miller test, albeit without including a community standards or average person caveats: Obscenity would have to appeal "to the prurient interest" in nudity, sex, or excretion, and it would have to lack literary, artistic, political, or scientific value.
But rather than requiring that something depict or describe sexual conduct in a "patently offensive" way in order to be considered obscene, Lee thinks basically all depictions of sexual conduct or erotic nudity could count as obscenity. The other prong of his definition of "obscenity" ropes in anything that "depicts, describes, or represents an actual or simulated sexual act or sexual contact" or "lewd exhibition of the genitals" in a way meant to "arouse, titillate, or gratify the sexual desire of a person."
"The point is to loosen the definition of obscenity so it's more broad and the government is removed of the obligation to prove patent offensiveness," says Levy. In that way, it would give the government more leeway to target porn producers and distributors with criminal sanctions.
This is, indeed, what Lee and Miller are saying. When they unveiled IODA, Miller declared that the law would give law enforcement "the tools they need to target and remove obscene material from the internet" and to "ensure this dangerous material is kept out of our homes and off our screens."
This isn't about age-gating online porn or otherwise ensuring that it's not easily accessible to minors. It's about ensuring that no one can to see content that that might "arouse" or "titillate."
Coming for Your Text Messages?
Aside from defining obscenity, Lee's bill has one other component—and it's a bit of a head-scratcher. It concerns the federal crime of "obscene or harassing" telecommunications.
Currently, "obscene" communications transmitted "by means of a telephonic device" must be done with an "intent to abuse, threaten, or harass" in order for them to be considered a crime. Lee's bill would remove the "intent to abuse, threaten, or harass" bit, so any telecommunications considered "obscene" would be criminalized even when no ill intent was present.
It's unclear why. Levy thinks the target is probably webcam videos, which are a very popular medium for personalized erotic shows and chat.
All sorts of sex work that relies on video calls—whether via a dedicated webcamming platform or some other service—could potentially be banned by removing the requirement that "obscene" calls be harassing or abusive in order to be criminal.
The proposed change would possibly allow for targeting phone sex operators and dirty phone calls, too. While Lee's revised definition of obscenity concerns visual depictions, not words, it still seems to allow for obscenity to exist in other contexts. In short, it defines all pornographic images as illegal obscenity, but it does not limit illegal obscenity to pornographic images.
That leaves room for phone calls that include sex talk to be labeled obscene even when everyone involved is a consenting adult.
It's even possible that this change could be used to go after porn and nude images sent from one telephone to another in various capacities. The Federal Communications Commission has held that text messages are "information services," not telecommunications, but the commission could change that in the future.
Bringing Back Movie and Magazine Busts
"There aren't a great number of pure obscenity prosecutions these days," notes Corn-Revere. Prosecutors may still bring obscenity charges in conjunction with charges for things like child abuse or child porn, "but a pure bust for dirty magazines or dirty books or dirty movies is very rare."
If IODA passes, that could change. And even if its new definition of obscenity eventually failed constitutional muster in court, it could cause a lot of damage as the cases played out.
"So, we take it to court, we go through six years of challenges, and in the mean time, information vanishes," says Levy, who thinks the bill would be used to target speech by and about LGBTQ activity and, especially, about transgender people.
While Lee has tried to impose a national definition of obscenity before and failed, Levy thinks that "in this climate, he might have a chance." Since the 2018 passage of FOSTA, a bill that criminalized hosting online content that could facilitate prostitution, we've seen increasing attempts to try and censor online content, she notes. "This is just another attempt to throw the spaghetti at the wall and see what sticks."
More Sex & Tech News
Central planning and vibes: "For a case that could reshape the American tech sector, it's astonishing how little clarity the government has offered about the problem it's trying to solve," writes Robert Winterton, vice president of public affairs at the tech-industry trade group NetChoice, about the federal government's antitrust case against Google:
The [Justice Department] hasn't identified actual consumer harm—nor has it proposed remedies that suggest they are focused on improving outcomes for users. Instead, the agency has proposed a grab bag of radical structural changes that seem less about restoring competition and more about punishing Google and asserting control over what it believes the digital marketplace should look like, based on vague notions of "fairness" to competitors—not consumers.
MAGA's anti-tech antitrust warrior: Gail Slater, assistant attorney general for antitrust, is keen to take aim at big tech companies, notes Politico, describing a forum Slater convened to discuss strategy:
It is a scene that until recently would have been unheard of for a mostly Republican crowd in Washington. Until [President Donald] Trump, Republicans largely embraced a light-touch approach to applying the country's antitrust laws—a tendency seen as part and parcel of the party's generally more business-friendly stances when compared to those of the Democrats….Trump himself showed limited interest in aggressive antitrust against the major tech companies until near the end of his first term, when the [Justice Department] filed a case against Google over the multibillion-dollar company allegedly unfairly competing in the search market just three months before he left office.
But that's all shifting now, and Slater's own arc is one window into how it all changed for many other conservatives. Slater is a longtime Republican who throughout her legal and lobbying career has been known both as a by-the-book enforcer and bipartisan bridge-builder, according to interviews with nearly two dozen people who know her. But her long-standing disdain for the abuses of monopoly power has positioned her to be the leader of the surging MAGA antitrust movement's legal agenda, overseeing cases that include a pair of lawsuits against Google and another against Apple. She will also serve as an ally to Ferguson as his [Federal Trade Commission] sues Facebook-parent Meta over its purchase of Instagram and WhatsApp.
Anyone hoping against the odds that the second Trump administration would be better on these issues than President Joe Biden's administration is probably out of luck. The best we can hope for is that it will go about as poorly in court as it did for Biden's antitrust warriors…
The 9th Circuit reaffirms the government's loss in Microsoft case: "Microsoft's merger with gaming giant Activision Blizzard took a leap forward [last week] after a Ninth Circuit panel ruled that a federal judge was correct in rejecting the Federal Trade Commission's attempt to block the deal after a trial in 2023," reports Courthouse News. The three judges unanimously "ruled the federal judge had applied the correct legal standards. The panel also found the [Federal Trade Commission] had not shown it was likely to succeed on its claims that the merger would restrict competition."
Today's Image

Editor's Note: As of February 29, 2024, commenting privileges on reason.com posts are limited to Reason Plus subscribers. Past commenters are grandfathered in for a temporary period. Subscribe here to preserve your ability to comment. Your Reason Plus subscription also gives you an ad-free version of reason.com, along with full access to the digital edition and archives of Reason magazine. We request that comments be civil and on-topic. We do not moderate or assume any responsibility for comments, which are owned by the readers who post them. Comments do not represent the views of reason.com or Reason Foundation. We reserve the right to delete any comment and ban commenters for any reason at any time. Comments may only be edited within 5 minutes of posting. Report abuses.
Please
to post comments
And Democrats have been actively trying to redefine 'obesity' (and call it racist).
I read, "Republicans Want To Redefine Obesity". Then was very confused about what arousal had to do with being fat.
Some people are 'chubby-chasers'.
Funny, I just read an article this morning about redefining obesity.
https://www.bumc.bu.edu/camed/2025/01/15/the-lancet-diabetes-endocrinology-global-commission-proposes-major-overhaul-of-obesity-diagnosis/
"I'll give you my porn when you pry it from my warm, sticky hand"
Finally a truthful statement from sarc.
The elevated levels of sexual frustration in right-wing rejects are understandable, given their substantially reduced viability. It is therefore customary that they would like to ban sex and things adjacent. What they can't have, nobody can.
What an idiotic statement. Do you have children? I'm guessing no, and I would also guess that there is some projection and bitterness involved in your obviously ignorant view.
(sarcasm)As a former child I can personally attest to being traumatized by images of naked women.(/sarcasm)
Sexual desire is essential to the existence of everyone reading this. If you have a problem with sexual desire or "exposing" images of its existence to children then you've been programmed into a variant of self-loathing. But of course someone will come along and conflate images with some violent sexual act and treat them as equivalent dangers.
Well, according to cultural conservatives, if you don’t oppose porn you are supporting pedophilia and women being used as sex slaves. Or something like that.
Cites?
It does actually create all kinds of societal problems. Rampant sexual deviation is a serious red flag for any civilization. You're obviously one of the degenerates attempting to propagate this degeneracy. Stay away from children and get off my lawn dipshit.
Nudity is “sexual deviation”? Porn is “sexual deviation”? Prostitution, widely called the world’s oldest profession, is “sexual deviation”? Jesus, man. Is swearing deviant, too?
Your childporn, near-beastial furry shit, and child castration and clitorectomy fetishes are about as close to being deviant as one can get, creeper.
Oh look, Nelson is making up shit again.
Show a old Playboy to a group of Republicans and then a group of Democrats and then tell me which group will try to have you arrested, Nelson.
Republicans. Notice who is agitating against pornography. And have been for a long, long time.
Lets get the intellectual pissing contest out to the way. I'm a EE in aerospace and I have 5 kids. I would like all indecent content behind some type of adult confirming firewall, or some-such. Like decency laws across the USA. If you want to be a perv, go ahead. Leave me and my kids out of it. If you don't have kids shut up.
“ I would like all indecent content behind some type of adult confirming firewall, or some-such”
Then find someone who sells such a product and install it on your devices. It isn’t the government’s job to restrict adults to make porn slightly less easy for your kids to find. This is a personal choice you’ve made. Find a personal solution. It isn’t the government’s job to enforce your parental preferences.
Leave the rest of us out of your family decisions.
'substantially reduced viability'
What does that even mean? You're attempt to seem superior makes you look like a dumb asshole.
Pretty sure the most sexually frustrated people in America are those on the left given that they seem to think you need a form filled out in triplicate to even consent to thinking about having sex.
Meanwhile rural teenagers have two kids before they're twenty.
Yes, both of these are basically caricatures but it's amusing none the less.
These morons think that if you're against kids being able to easily access porn then your some kind of simpleton from the backwoods who is afraid of sex. They're arrogant, stupid, and gross.
I’m skeptical. I doubt his dick works after decades of severe alcohol abuse
My of my cousins told me about watching Game of Thrones when it first came out with his then wife and teenaged daughter during one of the infamous sexposition scenes and coming to the uncomfortable conclusion that he was watching porn with his kid.
I guess he was not wrong.
Yeah, that checks out in all honesty. It's why I didn't get past the first one or two episodes despite all the hype.
same
I want to know what ENB's definition of "obscenity" is.
Political speech like Mackey. Not sex.
Anything Trump says or does?
Trump is only obscenity if you masterbate to him.
Sarc masturbates bitterly to anything Trump says or does.
Maybe something as vague and subjective as a moral belief system shouldn’t be legislated at all. Just maybe.
If it doesn’t impact anyone else’s rights, why should the government be involved?
Four years of Biden shows how awful that can be.
"Maybe something as vague and subjective as a moral belief system shouldn’t be legislated at all. Just maybe."
And Nelson comes out for allowing childporn, cannibalism fetishes and zoophilia. Quelle surprise.
Remember how you tried to mock me above for saying “ Well, according to cultural conservatives, if you don’t oppose porn you are supporting pedophilia and women being used as sex slaves. Or something like that.”?
Do you completely lack self-awareness or are you actually Jesse-level stupid?
A rights-based system would come to exactly the same conclusions about the things you mention, but would avoid the sort of self-righteous nonsense that you and your fellow totalitarians indulge in.
But apparently because I think someone else’s moral code shouldn’t impact anyone but them, you think it really means I support [insert thing that I don’t support here]. The depths of your stupidity are staggering.
Sorry, but they are obviously right about you
Your Declaration and Constitution are both based on the morality picked up from the Bible.
Long ago your type said the same thing about Slavery and Bigamy.
What are you talking about? Seven of the Ten Commandments are unconstitutional.
The Constitution is a purely Enlightenment document. It isn’t even vaguely related to the Bible in concepts or philosophy.
The Constitution is a Lockean a document as has ever been created. And the concepts that Jefferson put forth in the Declaration of Independence? Also Enlightenment.
One of the core ideals of the Enlightenment was skepticism towards religion and opposition to religious government.
The Constitution is not a moral document, it is a rights-based legal order created to run a country. Rights, not morality.
Republicans Want To Redefine Obscenity
You mean they want to redefine the modern religious practice of sacrificial genital mutilation of children as a biologically and ethically necessary human requirement?
Oh, no... they specifically oppose that. You're concerned that they're going to expand the definition from things that make rapists and child molesters fully erect to things that make rapists and child molesters more than 3/4 erect.
Isn't there an expectant mother who's 20 weeks pregnant (well after her sonogram detected fetal electrical currents) somewhere that you should be helping poison to death with mifepristone or something?
Tipper gore was the one claiming music turns kids satanic
on Donohue. my mother played the VHS copy at our church youth group no I am not kidding
If so, then does Satan turn kids musical?
20 weeks shouldn’t be illegal. 21 weeks is the earliest any fetus has ever been delivered and survived, so anything before that is trying to make a not-yet-viable fetus into a person through selective criteria.
If it has a 0% chance of survival, it isn’t a person yet.
Nice to live in s black and white world.
It isn’t black and white. It’s logical vs. illogical.
At 21 weeks one fetus, total, in the history of humanity, has survived. Lungs, in general, don’t form until about 26 weeks. So if you want to go by averages, 26 weeks is the way to go.
But if, like me, you want to give the earliest reasonable point to start giving a fetus competing rights with the mother, 21 weeks is that point. Before that it’s just superstition.
Plus it has the added benefit of being responsive to new facts. If someone gets to 20 weeks, 6 days, that’s the new point. Because only an actual change in reality should ever move that line onto the realm of potential vs. reality.
I was right about you . I knew you supported abortion.
But you are ignorant as usual about the facts
Three big errors
1) The anti-abortion laws were not founded on viablility !!!
2) The earlist laws NEVER said that before 20 weeks you aren't human!!!!
3) You speak of not changing the law for moral but that is what abortion supporters actually did
“By the time of the
Fourteenth Amendment’s adoption . . . nearly every state had criminal legislation proscribing abortion” (John
D. Gorby); and “there can be no doubt whatsoever that the word ‘person’ referred to the fetus” (James S.
Witherspoon).
, William Blackstone, also indicated that in
a legal sense, “person” included all human beings. He wrote that “natural persons [i.e., human beings] are
such as the God of nature formed us.” He also stated that “life is . . . a right inherent by nature in every
individual; and it begins in contemplation of law as soon as an infant is able to stir in the mother’s womb.”
“ I knew you supported abortion.”
I do not. However, there is no justification for banning it pre-viability.
“ 1) The anti-abortion laws were not founded on viablility !!!”
Correct. Because anti-abortionists can’t recognize viability as a consideration because it comes well after the point they want to ban abortion (conception). Of course they ignore viability.
“ 2) The earlist laws NEVER said that before 20 weeks you aren't human!!!!”
Neither did I. I said there was only one person with rights before viability. A fetus isn’t a person endowed with individual rights until it has a non-zero chance to be … an individual. Until then, the only rights that matter are the pregnant woman’s.
“ 3) You speak of not changing the law for moral but that is what abortion supporters actually did”
Nonsense. A law that would limit the application of any abortion ban to after the earliest fetus had been born and survived (right now that’s 21 weeks) is about the fact that a pregnant woman is a person with rights and a fetus isn’t. It’s a rights argument. It is also a moral argument and a small-government argument and a your-religion-can’t-apply-to-me, pro-freedom argument. But the important one is that the rights of the mother to do with her body what she wants cannot be infringed unless there are competing rights. And a potential baby that may or may not actually become a real person isn’t that.
“ and “there can be no doubt whatsoever that the word ‘person’ referred to the fetus” (James S.
Witherspoon).”
Which is a nice sentiment that someone said. Unfortunately for you and him, 1 USC 8 specifically rejects that interpretation: https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/1/8
“ the words “person”, “human being”, “child”, and “individual”, shall include every infant member of the species homo sapiens who is born alive at any stage of development.”
Now, personally, I think that the first point at which it is even remotely possible for a fetus to be born alive should be the point at which they are acknowledged as a person with rights. It that isn’t the case right now.
“ and it begins in contemplation of law as soon as an infant is able to stir in the mother’s womb.”
Historically this is called the quickening and it happens much further into pregnancy than most abortion bans. It happens as early as 14 weeks. Anything before that would be outside Blackstone’s definition.
However, that isn’t very scientific or objective, is it? Viability, a common biological concept, is the best threshold. And assuming viability at the earliest point its ever happened seems to be a very conservative route, don’t you agree?
So even if it’s sentient, kill it anyway? Yeah, that’s a very democrat thing to say.
YOu can bet Nelson has been involved personally in abortion and these are 'conscience posts" l
I have not. I wouldn’t choose abortion, personally. But I’m also not so arrogant as to think that everyone else should do it my way.
This puritanical side of the GOP is one of the reasons I will never go full republican. DnD makes kids Satan worshipers, so does metal music, Mojo Nixon needs to burned at the stake, Video games cause violent kids, etc. I just can't ever get on board with any of that.
^THIS. Precisely where I identify as Libertarian instead of Republican. These dipsh*t Republicans like LEE & MILLER are no better than their 'environmentalist', LGBT, etc, etc counter-parts (just a different religion) who seem to think [Na]tional 'Guns' (Gov-Guns) should be used against all the people to DICTATE their own PERSONAL !Beliefs! on them.
Lee & Miller should go join the tyrannical leftarded and stop giving the Republicans a bad name because they don't want to respect and honor the 1A and 4A. Eat Sh*t puritan Republicans.
You "identify" as libertarian, yet you steadfastly refuse to learn anything at all about economics. Sorry bub, but you're a fraud. You're not a libertarian. You just hate Democrats.
You were literally proved wrong yet again on your understanding of economics over the weekend.
But keep your faith in globalist management alive!
It's amazing how you associate being 'learnt' leftard economics = libertarian.
+1
Yeah, the social conservative branch of the Republican party is pretty bad but I'd have to notice that Democrats are just as bad on social issues if not objectively worse.
Neither of them are pro-freedom in this regard. Both believe in social engineering, they just differ on the how and why.
Of course, there are at least some Republicans that are pro-freedom whereas I can't really say the same of Democrats. Damning with faint praise, perhaps, but true none the less.
That's why the choice for libertarians who want to tip the balance of society in the USA nowadays is pretty clear. It's not like you can have a powerful anti-trad alliance that's pro-freedom; you'd have to ally with those who are just as anti-liberty, but done differently. So it's better, here and now, for libertarians to ally with the trads, forming a "conservative" front, than against them.
Video games cause violent kids
This is getting to be a pretty standard fare "BOAF SIDEZ"/"MUH KRISSCHUN NASHUNALIZM!" retcon.
Tipper Gore and Hillary Clinton were as much responsible for the censorship of rap music and violent video games as any GOPer. The "Satanic Panic" of everything from daycare centers to DnD was, akin to the clown panic and the WOT, not identifiable as or strictly limited to any sort of partisan motivation.
There certainly were people and cases like Falwell who, just like Gore and Clinton on the other side, were Republicans, politically-affiliated, and conspicuously opposed phenomenon on religious grounds, but there was plenty of other (oxy)moronic stupidity and/or non-sequiturs from the "other" side about how we should do more to defend our nation but not (dis)respect or (dis)regard any (inter)national religion or collective moral standard selectively.
It's almost it's own panic. Like the whole argument about Trump supporters who at least fractionally had to vote for Obama for two terms being rabid racists supporting the White Supremacists around every corner when, in fact, it was Democratic/Progressive Mayors who were fomenting race riots. Reagan won the electoral college with more electoral votes for any candidate before or since. Unless you've got some bizarre, 20-dimensional, long con theory about the GOP winning by overwhelming margins only to simply give up their fascist theocratic stranglehold so that they could, paradoxically, bring about greater social liberty then ??? and profit; there's no way he could've done it if at least some, if not many, blue dog Democrats, conservative socialists, and hippies were more concerned about Satanism (or not concerned about theocratic fascism and) were willing to pull the lever for him.
Tipper Gore and Hillary Clinton were as much responsible for the censorship of rap music and violent video games as any GOPer.
A very salient point. We can thank Gore for those 'parental advisories' on 'dangerous' music.
It just goes to show how quickly moral relativism can destroy a group of people. That was only about 30 years ago.
nobody ever needs to go full republican.
That is indeed the problem. There isn't enough political strength most places in the world for liberty for its own sake to be a winning issue, so there needs to be other reasons. The other reasons put libertarians, of political necessity, in bed with various factions that are sometimes easy enough to swallow, other times not.
Basically it's leftists wanting to overturn and discomfort society any way possible, so liberty has to align against them along with tradition to have enough force to resist successfully.
You don't have kids and like politicians with no kids you think they never get killed, perverted, turn violent. You are the PollyAnna type that elected Joe The Great Unifier.
Or maybe ... It's about realizing that it's not Politicians (especially National-Level) job to raise your own kids for you.
Something "Joe The Great Unifier" actually pretends it is his job to-do day-in and day-out.
As I said above... Puritan Republicans are no different than their Democrat counter-parts. The only difference is their beliefs. Both sides want to use 'Guns' to raise every-bodies kids. Using those 'Guns' to do what 'Guns' don't do *IS* the very basis of all the problems this nation faces.
And then Lee goes and does something like this and I'm glad that he never got a seat on the Supreme Court.
Aside from any moral aspects, once again, we have a congresscritter demonstrating that he doesn't understand how the internet works. Short of a chineese-style firewall, if someone posts something in Germany, we'll be able to access it in the USA.
This is just republicans do when they get tired of winning.
Beats mandating BJ lessons to K-3 students.
Which is definitely, totally NOT obscene.
Nor is it real. But cultural conservatives will believe some insane things.
Real enough that Florida had to pass a law to get democrats teachers to knock it off.
"Have you even *read* Snow White?" - chemjeff
Legal was never meant to equate to moral.None of the Founders that I know of (and I know most) would agree with that. '
RIDOCULOUS
I answer that, As stated above (Question 90, Articles 1 and 2), law is framed as a rule or measure of human acts. Now a measure should be homogeneous with that which it measures, as stated in Metaph. x, text. 3,4, since different things are measured by different measures. Wherefore laws imposed on men should also be in keeping with their condition, for, as Isidore says (Etym. v, 21), law should be "possible both according to nature, and according to the customs of the country." Now possibility or faculty of action is due to an interior habit or disposition: since the same thing is not possible to one who has not a virtuous habit, as is possible to one who has. Thus the same is not possible to a child as to a full-grown man: for which reason the law for children is not the same as for adults, since many things are permitted to children, which in an adult are punished by law or at any rate are open to blame. In like manner many things are permissible to men not perfect in virtue, which would be intolerable in a virtuous man.
Now human law is framed for a number of human beings, the majority of whom are not perfect in virtue. Wherefore human laws do not forbid all vices, from which the virtuous abstain, but only the more grievous vices, from which it is possible for the majority to abstain; and chiefly those that are to the hurt of others, without the prohibition of which human society could not be maintained: thus human law prohibits murder, theft and such like.
=====> Seems then that Lee is on the right track
"Wherefore human laws do not forbid all vices, from which the virtuous abstain, but only the more grievous vices, from which it is possible for the majority to abstain; and chiefly those that are to the hurt of others, without the prohibition of which human society could not be maintained: thus human law prohibits murder, theft and such like."
“ Legal was never meant to equate to moral”
Exactly. It is impossible for a morality-based legal system to be fair and just. It will always discriminate against those who hold different moral views, and morality is subjective.
There is nothing for which a morality-based system can deliver justice that a rights-based system cannot. But a rights-based system is less subject to abuse and discrimination.
No, Nelson, you didn't get it at all !!!!
There must be morals but the limit of law and morals are not the same. You , Nelson, cannot murder even though you say that is a religious rule. And on the other hand there can't be a law that Nolan has to pray every day. You completely missed what I said.
And the proof is you never said there is no such thing as 'moral' 🙂 It's that rush to be first and 'brilliant' that trips you up
So when law-enforcement puts a bullet in your head for watching porn and defying the law it's not murder?
People really need to stop thinking 'government' is a magical wand of 'personnel programming' in the cloud. People are not robots for your puritan programming.
Murdering is illegal because it infringes (i.e. TAKES) the rights away of someone else (their right to live). No other reason (My moral beliefs) plays into that equation. The government is there to DEFEND Individual Liberty and Justice for all it's not there to AGGRESSIVELY shoot anyone who doesn't align with someone else's beliefs.
Or, more succinctly: "No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another; and this is all from which the laws ought to restrain him..." - Thomas Jefferson in a letter to Francis W. Gilmer.
Too succinct as it makes Jefferson to using YOUR view of natural rights.
Thomas Jefferson advocated “dismemberment” as the penalty for homosexuality in his home state of Virginia, and even authored a bill to that effect (1781, Query 14; cf. 1903, 1:226-227).
"No man has a natural right to commit aggression on the equal rights of another"
Excellent find... Would've saved me a lot of typing above :).
I'm a free speech and free content absolutist but I'm at the point where I just can't generate any fucks to give about porn legality.
Don't care. Get a VPN.
It’s funny that you think the self-righteous will stop at porn.
True. We got to see you democrats try to install Scary Poppins as head of the Ministry of Truth………
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUo0rKpRWFs
For their faults, republicans are. A million times better on free speech.
I might show this to my Logic students. Logically who is applying the label , Is it Nelson or the people he is saying won't stop at porn. Why, It's Nelson putting the Scarlet "A' on people left and right.
[ A standing for a self-righteous person 🙂 ]
People like you elected Biden. Sure.
$182.8 billion to Ukraine but the mom with kids on the internet is told by you L Get your own damn VPN
I am certain you disgust most people on here with families.
Soon people will be able to create completely realistic custom porn at home on their own devices, and laws about trading in porn will become irrelevant.
Someday soon there will be an entire generation of kids who have never even jerked off to a picture of a real person. Little perverts will only be able to get off to AI generated images.
But there won't be a perceptible difference.
Watched the Miller test play out back in the 80s. Their was an adult book store in town that the local states attorney was desperate to shut down. He empaneled a grand jury to watch every video and puruse every magazine to determine if they met community standards. Seems hilarious in retrospect but the local paper actually published the winners and losers. Of course the goal was always to bleed the bookstore owners dry with legal fees and the prosecutor eventually succeeded. The only reason to pass laws is to create litigation and it seems to me we have too much of that going without giving lawyers more tools to fuck with people.
I bet that grand jury had a lot of volunteers!
This is truly alarming news.
I cannot imagine these comments without any references to body parts or sexual acts, often to be performed upon ones self.
We will be able to scan the comments in about two seconds.
You’re the winner today!
If I burn a fag flag in sf will I be charged with a crime? Fuck off you pedo loving cancer
they should totally design a pedo-loving cancer.
Wuhan on line 2...
It would have its work cut out with Chemjeff. So much for a cancerous tumor to love……..
Robert Corn-Revere, chief counsel at the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression
Ah, yeah, not buying into Woke Zoomer ACLU's pontificating FUD.
"It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends on his not understanding it."
It wouldn't matter how clear the law is and how immoral the behavior it specifically opposed.
A civil liberties group whose roots are in defending free speech on campuses is “woke”? If that’s woke, almost everything is.
“ how immoral the behavior it specifically opposed”
Immorality should never be the basis of legislation, since moral codes are individual and arbitrary.
Morality is the reason for having laws at all. There is no basis for preferring a society with laws to savagery other than morality.
Absolutely not. Rights are the reason to have laws. Morality, due to it’s subjective and individual nature, are a terrible justification for laws. Seventh Day Adventists would outlaw meat, Christian Scientists would outlaw medical treatments, Mormons would outlaw gay marriage, etc. That’s what a morals-based legal system would do: impose religious and moral strictures on people who never chose them for themselves.
Rights, on the other hand, belong equally to all people. They are an objective, culture-neutral, just way to administer a country.
Theocracy is bad, in case you missed basically every history class.
Rights, on the other hand, belong equally to all people.
That is a moral position.
No, it isn’t. It’s a philosophical and logical position, but it doesn’t have a good/evil judgement. It is neither good nor evil that all people have rights. It merely is.
That’s the difference between morals and rights.
Because when you claim something is “good” or “evil”, the obvious next question is why? Morality is relative and subjective, so that answer will be different for everyone. Even whether it is good or evil is relative and subjective.
Bullshit.
Really? Why do you say that?
No, the reason for having laws is to minimize the amount of physical fighting.
That physical fighting is a bad thing is a moral judgement.
No, it’s violating another person’s rights. You don’t need morality to make assault illegal. You only need rights.
That people's rights should be respected is a moral judgement.
How clueless are you. People have rights, among them bodily autonomy. You can’t infringe on someone else’s rights. There is no moral element to that. Whether it is right or wrong is completely absent from the analysis.
You seem to think that morality means something different than what it actually means. It isn’t a vague concept that encapsulates anything that makes society function, it is a very narrow concept that assigns arbitrary determinations of “right” and “wrong” to actions.
Remember just 5 yrs. ago when lots and lots of people thought that handshakes, high fives, and hugs meant you were killing everyone's grandma?
"No government should base laws on morality." is like the 100 men vs. 1 gorilla question. The statement says more about the mental/intellectual, physical, ethical, and social capacities of the person involved rather than the practicality of the answer. If you and 100 other random people can't outsmart and overcome a gorilla, you've succeeded in pretty much every dimension in being inferior to our most savage ancestors. Similarly, if you haven't realized that people don't need government, laws, or religion to enforce (im)morality on each other...
ACLU condemned Kamala very strongly for something you defend
https://www.realclearpolicy.com/articles/2024/08/22/how_kamala_harris_earned_rebukes_from_aclu_and_scotus_on_privacy_1053395.html
How Kamala Harris Earned Rebukes from ACLU and SCOTUS on Privacy
'The Breaches of Confidentiality Here Were Massive'
Only time that happened in my lifetime !!!!
How many people are surprised that cultural conservatives are huge fans of censorship? Cultural conservatives constantly claim they aren’t censors and morality police, but keep doing both in the most ridiculous ways.
Someone else’s love of porn isn’t your concern.
Cultural conservatives constantly claim they aren’t censors and morality police
Cites?
Look at basically every paleocon post here accusing “leftists” of being the ones who love censorship. When it’s pointed out that conservatives (especially cultural conservatives) love it just as much when they’re in power, the denials are deafening.
If you are willing to admit that conservatives are just as in love with censorship as liberals, you would be an exception, not the rule.
Cites?
Try being a serious person.
Try backing up your accusations about what other people are saying by being able to quote such people who are saying that, rather than just making shit up.
Tell me again about the “censorship” that the Biden Administration engaged in with social media companies?
If you truly believe that “leftist censorship” isn’t a common theme with the paleocons, you don’t read the comments here.
So your evidence is .....
[WE] democrats did it so it's all YOUR guys fault?
He’s a a democrat. They don’t do that.
Nelson, you ignorant person
Censorship ??? The greatest example in my lifetime was by the opposite of a cultural conservative
How Kamala Harris Earned Rebukes from ACLU and SCOTUS on Privacy
'The Breaches of Confidentiality Here Were Massive'https://www.realclearpolicy.com/articles/2024/08/22/how_kamala_harris_earned_rebukes_from_aclu_and_scotus_on_privacy_1053395.html
You just shout your Stalin mouth off for kicks
I mean, everything after season 3 was pretty much an obscenity hurled at the audience.
idk how many episodes in before (spoiler) the kid got thrown out the tower but the reason he got thrown out the tower was the last second mme. dillinger watched
Wait.. you mean because the blonde dude was fucking the girl from Terminator, right?
Been a while since I saw any of that.
(spoiler) yes. brother & sister iirc ... something about ick
None of this matters, except for show. The only way obscenity matters to federal law is to make exceptions to jurisprudence regarding freedom of communication, and since the courts have taken it on themselves to decide whether something is obscene, no statute can ever have any effect on the matter. And any issues regarding obscenity as federal or even state matters are swept up into affecting freedom of communication, so there's nothing else they can affect.
"It really struck me that there's nothing about that definition that I think would survive constitutional review," No shit, Sherlock. No definition could ever stand constitutional review.
It's as with qualified immunity. Unless someone dares to get at the underlying statute, which no legislator dares amend, qualified immunity will remain solely a matter for judicial determination.
There are certain things nobody wants to leave to democratic boundary-drawing. No matter how much people complain, they want no responsibility for outcomes, and so will leave it in the hands of people who are not responsible to anybody. "Many megadeaths. No blame."
how would the government win all the conflicts if they amended the underlying statute?
"It's as with qualified immunity. Unless someone dares to get at the underlying statute, which no legislator dares amend, qualified immunity will remain solely a matter for judicial determination."
"Qualified immunity" is a judicially invented doctrine - there is no "underlying statute". Therefore some have called on legislators to pass a statute prohibiting use of that judicial doctrine.
No, there's an underlying statute that QI purports to make exceptions to in its execution. The statute contained no grant of immunity, it allowed suits for damages, but the courts said it can't be construed literally because it would allow too much. But the statute could be amended to say, yeah, we really meant it to go that far.
My favorite obscenity law is where you can't draw Muhammed. What's yours?
je suis Charlie.
Men and women can't hit on each other in the workplace because that's sexual harassment but if you fire someone for trying to get people to sign up for their explicitly same-sex-oriented softball team you're breaking the law for not treating them the same as opposite sex employees.
Title IX means ladies can't dance in their underwear, or less, on campus or as part of a University-sponsored function or for money unless they have a penis.
makes casual chauvinists like myself stick up for the true feministas
I am a firm supporter of women dancing naked for educational purposes.
Well the removal of "patently offensive" from the federal definition is the least objectionable part of this effort.
What's "offensive"? What's "patently"? Whatever the fuck the particular judge in a particular case personally feels. And that's it.
Eye of the beholder indeed.
Now imagine James Ho or Samuel Alito was the one making the determination. Most fun would basically become illegal.
Footloose as prophesy?
The bill makes a mockery of the First Amendment.
You mean, kinda like when the left says that the Second Amendment was only meant for muskets and flintlocks?
Basically, Lee wants to replace the average person's opinion with his own.
Sounds to me like he wants to replace the average person's opinion with the average person's.
And you don't understand that, Elizabeth, because you don't know any average people. You only know bluesky echo-chamber NPCs.
"The point is to loosen the definition of obscenity so it's more broad and the government is removed of the obligation to prove patent offensiveness," says Levy. In that way, it would give the government more leeway to target porn producers and distributors with criminal sanctions.
Sounds good. Don't know why anyone would object to that without first putting on a blinking neon hat that reads "I'm a degenerate."
It's about ensuring that no one can to see content that that might "arouse" or "titillate."
Y'know they can always just go see their husbands or wives. Might even encourage them to do so - or become them - for that specific interest.
Wouldn't be the worst thing in the world, would it.
And then we can exterminate no-fault divorce on top of it. Both together - that would be a huge social/cultural plus for America. If not the world.
It's unclear why. Levy thinks the target is probably webcam videos, which are a very popular medium for personalized erotic shows and chat.
No, it's actually probably dickpics.
All sorts of sex work that relies on video calls—whether via a dedicated webcamming platform or some other service—could potentially be banned by removing the requirement that "obscene" calls be harassing or abusive in order to be criminal.
I'm already on board, ENB. You don't have to keep selling it.
"So, we take it to court, we go through six years of challenges, and in the mean time, information vanishes," says Levy, who thinks the bill would be used to target speech by and about LGBTQ activity and, especially, about transgender people.
Gee, always funny at how the LGBT Pedo finds itself at odds with any/every effort made in the name of basic human decency.
Quiet part out loud, Lizzy. (But by all means, keep reminding us! I never - EVER - get tired of how right-wing attacks on degeneracy and underage prostitution and sexual assault and child porn "disproportionately affect the LGBT community." Tells us everything we need to know about the LGBT Pedos, doesn't it.)
“ You mean, kinda like when the left says that the Second Amendment was only meant for muskets and flintlocks?”
That’s not actually what “the left” says at all. Perhaps some do, but some conservatives carry torches and chant “Jews will not replace us”, but that isn’t what @the right” says. Taking a fringe position and applying it to everyone in a broader group is lazy at best, intentionally dishonest at worst.
“ Sounds to me like he wants to replace the average person's opinion with the average person's.”
You think the average person wants to ban porn? Apparently you don’t know many people.
“ Sounds good”
Free expression is a bad thing, in your world? The only acceptable expression is that which is first judged by the most self-righteous among us? How could that possibly go wrong?
“ Y'know they can always just go see their husbands or wives. Might even encourage them to do so - or become them - for that specific interest.”
What about people who aren’t married? Or those who don’t want to get married? No sexuality or porn for them?
“ Both together - that would be a huge social/cultural plus for America. If not the world.”
You’re against other people getting divorced without justifying it to someone who isn’t in the marriage? Why should anyone else’s opinion matter? If one person you don’t know doesn’t want to stay married to another person you don’t know, what’s your complaint?
That’s not actually what “the left” says at all.
Ask them to define "assault weapon."
You think the average person wants to ban porn? Apparently you don’t know many people.
I think the average person wants pornography less accessible to people - especially young people - who aren't prepared to deal with an overwhelmingly and increasingly socially acceptable level of adult degeneracy.
Same reason they're sick of the gays.
I also think the "average person" who doesn't want it banned actively thinks, "I care about my own selfish degenerate hedonism more than anything else, including child innocence."
Which, frankly, kinda puts them more or less in the same category as the perverts and molesters.
Free expression is a bad thing, in your world?
Are you wearing the blinking neon hat, Nelson?
What about people who aren’t married? Or those who don’t want to get married? No sexuality or porn for them?
YE-P. (Imagine I made that "P" with a big 'ol popping sound as I said it. You'll try it out loud, and know immediately what I mean.)
You’re against other people getting divorced without justifying it to someone who isn’t in the marriage?
Yep. Y'all are the ones that got the State involved in it. Now they get a say in it. And, given that legal divorce comes with child custody and community property issues (to say nothing of child support and alimony) - there SHOULD be an at-fault party. If you want a no-fault divorce, stipulate to it. No need whatsoever to assume it. If one person is stepping out, or the other is a drug addict, or one beats the kids, or the other just doesn't want to be married anymore - make them at fault. And turn all favorable legal aspects to the non-fault party.
No-fault divorce is one of the single dumbest things Western society has ever come up with. And I will fight you on this point to the death.
We should have fought the democrats to the death a long time ago.
Go back to Iran Ayatollah!
lol. Do you not even appreciate that you just took the side of absolute degeneracy? Do you even care? I know ENB doesn't, because she's absolutely a degenerate.
Come at me, Dorian Gray. By all means: defend child porn, prostitution, child prostitution, homosexuality (or any of its LGBT derivatives), divorce, anti-family efforts in general.
Defend them, you gimp degenerate, I double-dog dare you.
Ugh, why does Reason insist on a comment feature built in 1995.
Because Reasonif poorly managed?
“No government ought to be without censors & where the press is free, no one ever will.” -Thomas Jefferson (1743-1826)
The obvious key to the whole charade
Would be to run down all of the games they played
Remember Ditta Beard and ITT, the slaughter in Attica
The CIA in Chile knowing nothing about Allende at this time
in the past as I recollect.
Augusta, Georgia. the nomination of the Supreme Court jesters to head off the tapes.
William Calley's executive interference in the image of John Wayne
Kent State, Jackson State, Souther Louisiana
Hundreds of unauthorized bombing raids
The chaining and gagging of Bobby Seale
Someone tell these Maryland governors to be for real.
Watergate Blues/ Gil Scott-Heron.
These Xtian theocrats just don't want anybody to have fun. Go back to Iran you Ayatollah Xtian hypocrite mullahs!
$40,000,000,000,000.00 in debt but thank god Republicans are focused on the real problems facing America!
So many of Elizabeth's pieces are abortion and homosexuality and pornography... but she says 're-define' but won't give us a definition.
If there is no such thing as pornography just say so, Elizabeth. But if there is ,what is it ?
You want everybody to produce whatever they care to but unintentional consumers don't bother you. Do you have kids, Elizabeth "
A 2023 survey by Common Sense Media found that 54% of teens report having seen online pornography before age 13, with an average age of first exposure at 12. 4 in 5 parents are concerned about children's exposure to pornography
Now, Elizabeth, 12 is just average. So millions of 10 year olds get dragged into smut but you think it is a sign of freedom of speech. I will simply say IT IS NOT and know that most every parent on here supports me. Kids are mercurial and unstable in their early teens and utter filth just makes them reel, it can be a lifelong descent
"might arouse or titillate" is the vaguest possible standard. The Federal government loves these kind of laws because it allows them to prosecute anyone, anywhere, for any reason. Under this standard, Salma Hayek would he arrested for appearing in public dressed in anything more revealing than a head-to-toe burqa.