Trump Says Alleged Gang Members Don't Need Hearings Because the Government Is Infallible
The Supreme Court unanimously rejected that claim, upholding the right to due process in deportation cases.

Tricia McLaughlin, a spokeswoman for the Department of Homeland Security (DHS), says all the migrants whom the Trump administration sent to a notorious prison in El Salvador last month are "actually terrorists, human rights abusers, gangsters, and more," even if they "don't have a rap sheet in the U.S." She adds that "we have a stringent law enforcement assessment in place that abides by due process."
McLaughlin's idea of due process is notably different from the right that the Supreme Court upheld last week, when it ruled that suspected members of the Venezuelan gang Tren de Aragua "are entitled to notice and [an] opportunity to be heard" before they are deported. According to federal officials, the government's methods are infallible, so there is no need for hearings—a position that is plainly inconsistent with due process as it is ordinarily understood.
President Donald Trump sought to avoid judicial review of these cases by invoking the Alien Enemies Act, a rarely used, 227-year-old statute.* In a March 15 proclamation, Trump implausibly asserted that Tren de Aragua qualifies as a "foreign nation or government" and that its criminal activities within the United States amount to an "invasion or predatory incursion."
The Supreme Court's decision did not address those dubious propositions. But even assuming that Trump is correctly interpreting the law, all nine justices agreed, his targets have a "well established" Fifth Amendment right to contest their designation as "alien enemies."
Notwithstanding McLaughlin's assurances, the need for that opportunity is clear. In the lawsuit that resulted in the Supreme Court's order, five Venezuelans threatened with deportation insisted they were not members of Tren de Aragua, and those claims are plausible in light of the criteria DHS has used to identify "gangsters."
The department's "alien enemy validation guide" includes iffy evidence such as tattoos, clothing, social media posts, and "associating" with "known" gang members. The lead plaintiff in the lawsuit said he was erroneously linked to Tren de Aragua based on a "tattoo of an eye" that he got because he "thought it looked cool," while another detainee said he was nabbed because he went to a party that, unbeknownst to him, included members of the gang.
On the same day that Trump issued his proclamation, DHS sent 238 alleged Tren de Aragua members to El Salvador's Center for Terrorism Confinement (CECOT). As Justice Sonia Sotomayor noted last week, CECOT prisoners "suffer egregious human rights abuses," including inadequate food and water, overcrowding that forces inmates to "sleep standing up," denial of communication with relatives and lawyers, and "intentional life-threatening harm at the hands of state actors."
Those "perilous conditions" were especially troubling, Sotomayor said, because the government maintained it had no power to retrieve CECOT prisoners even when it conceded they were deported illegally. Three days later, the Supreme Court unanimously rejected that position too.
Although "at least 32 of the men sent to El Salvador have faced serious criminal accusations or convictions in the United States or abroad," The New York Times found, there was "little evidence of any criminal background" or "any association" with Tren de Aragua in most cases. The haziness of the government's evidence gave pause even to Joe Rogan, who endorsed Trump in last year's election and supports his efforts to deport dangerous criminals.
"You gotta get scared that people who are not criminals are getting lassoed up and deported and sent to El Salvador prisons," Rogan said on his hugely popular podcast a few weeks ago, calling that situation "crazy" and "horrific." He was referring to Venezuelan makeup artist Andry Hernandez, who seems to have been shipped off to CECOT based largely on innocent tattoos.
As White House Press Secretary Karoline Leavitt sees it, anyone who questions such judgments is shamefully maligning dedicated public servants and perversely "trying to cover for" members of "a vicious gang." Her formulation improbably assumes that government officials never make mistakes—a premise that the Supreme Court unambiguously rejected.
© Copyright 2025 by Creators Syndicate Inc.
*CORRECTION: The original version of this column misstated the age of the Alien Enemies Act.
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I'm not sure how Rogan earned a place in the discussion, but one can imagine that judging people based on tattoos would really be off-putting to him.
What the devil does any court think the President can do about a prisoner in another country, who that country claims is in prison legally? He can try to negotiate a release, but that's it, and a court can't order him to negotiate successfully.
Prosecute whoever ordered the kidnapping and deportation, that's the only judicial remedy. Same as prosecuting any kidnapper who had taken his victim to El Salvador for a reward.
What is the court going to do next, order some murderer to revive his victim's corpse? Order a mugger to unassault his victim? Order a burglar to return property, repair all the ancillary damage, and provide therapy for his victims?
If the court thinks Trump did it, they have only themselves to blame for making him immune. If they think someone else did it, then tell the DoJ to prosecute him. But oh wait, prosecutors have absolute discretion over who to prosecute for what, and guess what, that's another court-created immunity that should never exist.
The court decision is nonsense.
"Kremlin says Russian citizen released in US after Trump greets freed teacher"
"Trump got detained Americans back from North Korea. For Biden, it won't be so easy"
Can't Trump once again employ is famously palsy relationship with tyrants?
That's not the issue. The issue is whether a court can order it as remedy for an illegal kidnapping.
How many hostages have not been successfully release by negotians?
Do you remember when Biden rushed to defend the gay WNBA player but left other more deserving hostages in prison?
You know, we COULD start out by NOT sending millions of USA tax dollars to El Salvador, to reward them for serving as our jailer-goons and torturers!
But yeah, the courts are reaping their (and our) "rewards" for making Dear Leader and prosecutors immune... Try prosecuting Trump for HIS crimes? Good fucking luck with THAT! He is CLEARLY above and WAAAAY beyond the law!
I want you to be wrong, but you're not.
I agree with much of what you wrote, but El Salvador is essentially a client state, at this point. They would absolutely "do a favor" for Trump.
What's nonsense is the idea that Trump tried in good faith to fulfill the court order. As the kids like to say, that bit of political theater in the Oval Office was "malicious compliance".
He could be back by lunch if Trump wanted it, but I think SGT is correct that the judiciary is limited in forcing him to do this per the constitution and their own decisions.
C'est la vie. Malicious compliance is golden here. Courts have zero power over foreign policy.
Trump is only obligated to offer the plane to return the MS-13 member back. He was under no obligation to try really hard.
Again, perhaps DoJ lawyers should request a specific script from the judge.
We are paying them to imprison those people. If we want one back, it is simple to tell them to return that one or they aren't going to be paid the 6 million dollars of US taxpayer money. He'd be back before you could say "executive misconduct".
And...why should he?
Fuck that judge.
Sure, never mind the separation of powers and the rule of law. Trump doesn’t have to be restrained by pesky things like that.
What is the Constitution, anyway, but a really old piece of toilet paper for authoritarians to wipe their infallible ass with?
Where in the Constitution does it say that a district judge can order the President to do anything he says?
"the Alien Enemies Act, a rarely used, 127-year-old statute"
Uhh, try 227 years.
Is everything else as sloppy?
If they are here illegally, they have a rap sheet.
And no, they can't claim asylum. Asylum or being a refugee means you have to stop at the first safe country, not go nation shopping for the one with the most welfare.
If they are here illegally, they have a rap sheet.
Trump has a rapsheet too.
The guy was checking in with ICE yearly since 2019 due to his withold from removal status and they'd knowingly let him free in the US. He had a work permit. Then with NO WARNING and no due process his status changes to indefinite imprisonment in a brutal foreign prison with no recourse.
That's justice in a nation that bills itself as "the land of the free".
Deporting him would be a dick move, but legal. Sending him to prison with no sentence? That's justice under Trump.
This is exactly what I meant when I warned deportations will get ugly and turn public opinion against trump. It has begun.
Dems destroyed; GOP: hold my beer.
Deporting him would be a dick move, but legal. Sending him to prison with no sentence?
Language.
We didn't send him to a prison with no sentence. We sent him back to his country of origin. What they did with him... well, we didn't MAKE them do that, we have no control over what they do or don't do with their citizenry or why. Although we're certainly free to delight in it.
Y'know Brix, you're one of the folks that I really respect around here so I'm going to ask you a question that Reason staff (and their theater kid/NPC comment section) doesn't seem to want to answer: what is it about this scumbag that's got you so worked up? Why do you seem to so badly want this El Salvadoran criminal in America? Why is he so important to you? His very own country flat out called him a terrorist. Why go to bat for him? Why pick this guy (or, for the rest of the left, accused assassin Luigi Fettuccini, or that black kid in Texas who stabbed a white kid to death for no reason, or a Hamas militant pretending to be a college protester) as the kind of person most deserving of our American empathy and American mercy? And doesn't it imply that our notions of empathy and mercy have been weaponized against us by folks who do NOT have American interests in mind AT ALL?
I don't get that. Reason does it all the time, but I rarely see you do the same. (Or maybe I just don't notice. I suppose that's possible, but you've earned the benefit of the doubt by now.)
Here is ONE answer, which I do not claim is true.
You cannot rely on El Salvador's claim he is an MS-13 gang member. Bukele has certainly thrown a shit-ton of bad guys in prison and reduced the crime rate, but the process for picking bad guys is opaque and arbitrary and has swept up a lot of people who he just doesn't like. He is also beholden to Trump and US money, and Trump is just as partisan with his friends and enemies lists as Biden; the main difference with previous Presidents is not trying to hide it with partisan lawfare as Biden did, with two fake impeachments and the ridiculous prosecutions in New York, Georgia, and elsewhere.
The Trump claim of being an MS-13 member was never more than a claim by Trump's own partisan hacks, never proven in any kind of court, and in fact in opposition to what a court had determined, that he was in danger of MS-13 going after him if he were deported to his home country, and the court had explicitly ordered that he not be deported to his home country.
The deportation was in direct violation of that court order, and has all the hallmarks of being intentionally done in spite of that court order, not in ignorance of it. I think "Rule of Law as opposed to Rule of Men" is a joke, because Men interpret Laws and Rule of Law is a fig leaf covering up the reality of Rule of Men. But one of the points of any judiciary is to do things by the rules, and when a court order says "Don't deport this guy to El Salvador", thumbing your nose at the court and deporting him to El Salvador just to spite the court is wrong in every way. At the very least, it speaks of an executive branch which doesn't care about any kind of procedures or rules. At its best, it speaks of an executive so slapdash in its processes that it is, literally, out of control.
I have never seen one thing addressed in all this: This guy has been under the protection of the court order since 2019, I think. MS-13 as a gang has a pretty violent reputation. If they had wanted this guy dead for having betrayed him, they've had six years. He is now in a prison full of MS-13 gang members, and still alive as far as we know. It defies common sense to think a mere court order here kept him safe for six years, and that Bukele has MS-13 under his thumb enough to keep him safe in that prison since his arrival. I do not buy the claim he has been in danger from MS-13 for the last six years.
But that doesn't change the fact that Trump is thumbing his nose at the US courts which Biden and the Dems have been using to attack Trump for the past umpteen years, it is as intentional as their lawfare was, and his lawfare is against illegal immigrants, not an American politician who exposed their corruption to public scrutiny. Both despicable, but entirely different, and from my point of view, the Dems' lawfare was far worse for the Rule of Law than Trump's.
You cannot rely on El Salvador's claim he is an MS-13 gang member.
I don't really care, Margaret. He's an illegal alien who hopped this border and has been living here as a criminal ever since. You'll notice I made no mention of the MS-13 connection.
It's because it's irrelevant. Anyone trying to make it relevant is trying to obfuscate the real issue.
MS-13 or not, this guy had zero business being here. He had zero right to be here. We don't HAVE to prove his MS-13 membership in Court, we have all the reason and right to dropkick his butt out of America and right back to El Salvador to be dealt with however El Salvador deals with people.
If you don't like El Salvadoran domestic policy, well I don't know what to tell you there. We have no control over it, and shouldn't operate under any illusions that we do. They're not screwing with us economically, so it's not like we could tariff them into compliance.
I think "Rule of Law as opposed to Rule of Men" is a joke, because Men interpret Laws and Rule of Law is a fig leaf covering up the reality of Rule of Men.
And I think that the American Rule of Law has been weaponized and exploited against Americans in order to facilitate malice by people who seek to abuse our American virtues for patently anti-American goals.
I wrote further on this subject just a little earlier today.
The reason I bring it up is because that's what's happening here. We're wringing our hands and falling to our fainting couches and twisting ourselves into pretzels over a maybe/maybe-not gang member who either way is illegally in this country. And we're trying to couch our defense of that guy under layers of procedure and bureaucracy and American virtues that simply don't apply to him, and shouldn't.
Again, this goes right back to the "I don't really care, Margaret." Because we don't really care. And unless you can tell me why we SHOULD care about him - which, despite the effort of your thoughtful post, which I appreciate - you ultimately didn't really do... I mean, what are we talking about here?
You're basically saying, "Open borders, so long as they're not proven to be MS-13." No. Screw that. America is done with that. That's WHY they elected an orange clown who will happily thumb his nose at anyone trying to stop him. They are seriously THAT done with this issue.
That you side with the maybe/maybe-not MS-13 illegal alien criminal El Salvadoran border jumper over the American People... I mean, doesn't that give you pause even slightly?
“ we have all the reason and right to dropkick his butt out of America and right back to El Salvador to be dealt with however El Salvador deals with people.”
He had a hearing in 2019 in which it was determined that we had all the reason and right to drop kick his butt out of America and right back to *literally anyplace other than El Salavador*. We specifically did *not* have the right to send him to El Salvador.
“ You're basically saying, "Open borders, so long as they're not proven to be MS-13."”
That isn’t what I read from him and, for myself, I don’t support open borders. Illegals should be deported within the confines of due process. The rule of law isn’t optional and it isn’t something that can be weaponized, unless you think “follow the law and allow people to dispute charges against them” is somehow destructive.
“ That you side with the maybe/maybe-not MS-13 illegal alien criminal El Salvadoran border jumper over the American People... I mean, doesn't that give you pause even slightly?”
Neither of those accurately describes either side. The “American People” are on the side of justice, as described in the Constitution. Those who “thumb their nose” at that are the enemy of the American People.
Nor are people defending due process in any way, shape, or form on this guy’s side. Most would be just fine with him being deported as long as it was legal (in this specific case, if he was deported to Honduras, for example). Because being indifferent to this guy being railroaded leads to innocent 19 year olds who followed the rules getting sent to the same El Salvadoran hellhole. Which, apparently, also happened in the same group of 238 people. Does that give you no pause?
The “American People” are on the side of justice, as described in the Constitution
Only when it's convenient and serves partisan goals. Otherwise they're all too happy to create sanctuary cities, catch and release, ignore ICE detainers, and hey if you didn't want to be murdered maybe you shouldn't have been jogging alone because in a way this was your own fault.
Read the link I gave SGT. NOBODY BELIEVES that the people defending illegals - people putting as much effort as possible into KEEPING THEM IN AMERICA, for reasons I cannot begin to fathom (but by all means, feel free to explain it to me) - gives a rat's backside about "the Constitution" and "Justice" and "Due Process."
It's all just a smokescreen for toxic virtue and weaponized empathy.
Because being indifferent to this guy being railroaded leads to innocent 19 year olds who followed the rules getting sent to the same El Salvadoran hellhole. Which, apparently, also happened in the same group of 238 people. Does that give you no pause?
You're telling me that 19yr old American citizens are currently wrongfully locked away in El Salvador?
Because if you're talking about a border jumper or a visa overstay (or a Hamas supporter on a visa) or a "dreamer" - then we're NOT talking about an "innocent" 19yr old who followed the rules, are we.
The American People are sick to death of illegal immigration and anti-American sentiment from aliens who want something from us. And we're done being told that there's a difference between Tren de Aragua/MS-13 and happy little Pablo Sanchez who hopped the border with his parents and dreams all day of playing American baseball.
Again, I don't really care Margaret. If you're an alien in this nation - whether illegally here committing crime, illegally here working and paying taxes, or legally here but disrespecting us and our people and our values and our culture - then get out. We don't care how it's effected, we don't owe you squat under the Constitution and Justice System that you have no respect for in the first place, and we don't CARE whether you end up in Africa, Indonesia, a deserted atoll in the middle of the Pacific, or an El Salvadoran prison.
NOBODY cares anymore. At least, not anybody who actually DOES care about the Constitution and the Rule of Law and the American Way. We are DONE with the illegals in this country. Done.
“ Only when it's convenient and serves partisan goals. Otherwise they're all too happy to create sanctuary cities, catch and release, ignore ICE detainers”
I agree with you that none of those things should exist. But I also believe that due process and the rule of law are paramount. Those two are not mutually exclusive.
“ You're telling me that 19yr old American citizens are currently wrongfully locked away in El Salvador?”
No, he’s not a citizen. He applied for asylum through the CBP One app and was awaiting his asylum hearing. He was grabbed and deported without getting a hearing. For applying for asylum and not getting an instant hearing, the punishment is now lifetime imprisonment in a country you aren’t from. He didn’t break any laws (not even illegal entry).
Given the way things are being done, the innocent-but-sent-to-a-foreign-torture-site scenario is likely to be repeated. Are you OK with sending people who didn’t break the law to foreign prisons?
“ The American People are sick to death of illegal immigration”
I agree. I’m one of them. There are a number of ways we need to reform the system. For example, “Remain in Mexico” is too lax. We should have immigration and asylum courts in embassies, should allow remote hearing by judges inside the US, and should require all asylum requests to be made at embassies. We should remove as many incentives to illegally cross the border as possible. And when a case is decided against someone inside America, they should be deported immediately. There are a lot of ways to move the target for asylum seekers outside the borders, and that should be the goal.
“ And we're done being told that there's a difference between Tren de Aragua/MS-13 and happy little Pablo Sanchez who hopped the border with his parents and dreams all day of playing American baseball.”
Some people may be, but those are also the people who have allowed themselves to be convinced that most illegal immigrants are violent criminals. They aren’t. They shouldn’t be here, but they aren’t violent criminals.
“ If you're an alien in this nation - whether illegally here committing crime”
Agreed.
“ illegally here working and paying taxes”
Agreed.
“or legally here but disrespecting us and our people and our values and our culture - then get out.”
Absolutely disagree. “Disrespect inv us and our people”? What does that even mean? If they tell any American they’re a jackass, they get deported? Why? A lot of Americans are jackasses. Saying so isn’t something that should ever be punished. “Our values and our culture”? What values and culture is that? Confederate values? Christian culture? Tax-the-rich values? The-fifties-were-great culture? Culture isn’t something that is static and unchanging. Values aren’t universal, they are different for virtually every person in the world. Which is why legislating culture and morality is awful. People get to accept or reject any values or culture that they wish. So that absolutely should never be a reason people who are here legally could be deported.
“we don't owe you squat under the Constitution”
Yes, we do. Almost all of it applies to citizens and noncitizens alike. You do like the Constitution, right?
“ we don't CARE whether you end up in Africa, Indonesia, a deserted atoll in the middle of the Pacific, or an El Salvadoran prison.”
Most people do. For someone who claims to believe in a morals-based order, as opposed to a rights-based order, you certainly don’t let the possibility of sending innocent people to torture factories bother you. It makes one question your moral code.
“ NOBODY cares anymore. At least, not anybody who actually DOES care about the Constitution and the Rule of Law and the American Way. We are DONE with the illegals in this country. Done.”
Many, many people care. Especially those who love the Constitution and the rule of law. The American Way? That, like morality, differs wildly depending on the person. Your version seems cruel and vengeful.
You seem to believe it’s impossible to be sick and tired of illegals without throwing away the things that make us such a great country, especially the rule of law and the Constitution. You advocate for a binary worldview where there are angels that deserve pleasure and demons that deserve pain, with no blending possible.
It’s possible to say, “these people are perfectly wonderful, but they don’t belong here unless they follow the process”. It’s possible to think that great people who are here illegally should still be deported and lousy people should get due process.
Immigration is good. Illegal immigration is bad. Send illegals home after they have lost their hearing (held outside the US, ideally). Allow legal immigrants to smoothly join us as Americans. Vastly expand guest worker and seasonal worker programs for things like agriculture and let a clean season as a guest worker count to their credit. Put in place systems that help identify those who want to be law-abiding citizens as well as those who don’t and treat them accordingly. Do you see how that would be a huge benefit for everyone?
I agree with you that none of those things should exist. But I also believe that due process and the rule of law are paramount.
Fair. But I would suggest that people who DO think those things exist have no business talking about "due process" or "rule of law," the hypocrites.
No, he’s not a citizen.
Then who cares. NGL, I literally just stopped reading after that, because who cares even slightly about the rest.
And if you think I'm the only American doing so, I don't think you have your pulse on the nation at the moment.
Are you OK with sending people who didn’t break the law to foreign prisons?
If they're not Americans, yea - I don't have a problem with it. Maybe I would have not so long ago (even during Trump's first term) - but (and this goes into your later point: "There are a lot of ways to move the target for asylum seekers outside the borders, and that should be the goal.") now, buddy, we're past the first-world luxury of a surgical suite and top vascular surgeons. The criminal alien problem and all the hell it's brought with it is now a MASH field hospital and if the best we have to work with is an orange Doc Sawbones who's been nipping on his flask for the last hour, then so be it.
We'll do the best we can - but understand the conditions we're now operating in. We're past the point of, "Get the thing off Kane's face!" It's already burst out of his chest and is now a full-fledged monster running uncontained around the ship.
They shouldn’t be here, but they aren’t violent criminals.
The distinction is no longer meaningful. They ruined that. We didn't ruin it. They did. And so did their leftist/Democrat enablers.
What does that even mean?
It means supporting Hamas on a college campus. It means waving the flag of the country you claimed to need "asylum" from, or worse, raising it over America's. It means smirking and giving dual-middle fingers to the camera as you march out of court in a sanctuary city. It means showing anything less than total gratitude, humility, and reverence for the nation that took you in when it was under no obligation whatsoever to.
You come here on a student visa and burn an American flag? Dude, consider me soft for settling for sending them back to their COO. Because I, and a majority of Americans, are on the razor's edge of just chucking them right into CECOT.
These people are GUESTS in this nation. You wouldn't accept an invitation to your neighbors home only to immediately take a dump on his coffee table. And yet, that's what so many of these entitled ingrates do.
And we're sick of it, Nelson.
Tolerance? Abused.
Diversity? Abused.
Compassion? Abused.
Empathy? Abused.
We should have shot the dog the first time it bit us. Simple as that.
Most people do.
Leave your echo chamber and you'll discover otherwise.
For someone who claims to believe in a morals-based order, as opposed to a rights-based order, you certainly don’t let the possibility of sending innocent people to torture factories bother you.
Toxic virtue. You'd have me snap my sword in two and wield only the merciful part, in defense of someone who has zero intention of doing the same and maliciously seeks to weaponize my virtue - my morality - against me.
That game is over in this country, Nelson. Better wise up to it sooner rather than later. (And, incidentally, the LGBT Pedo is full-on into FAFO territory too, for the same reasons.)
Many, many people care.
You're wrong, Nelson. You're only listening to the NPCs and the narrators. You need to start venturing outside the blue bubble and see things for what they really are. The People are super pissed. And the woke left only pisses them off even more by A) pretending they have no right to be; and B) calling them nazis for it.
You seem to believe it’s impossible to be sick and tired of illegals without throwing away the things that make us such a great country, especially the rule of law and the Constitution.
Again, this is toxic virtue. Nobody's saying "throw away the things that make us such a great country." They're saying, "the first order of business is to get the foxes OUT of the henhouse."
We can figure out what to do with the foxes AFTER that. But letting them STAY in the henhouse is NOT a rational, reasonable, or acceptable position to take.
It’s possible to say, “these people are perfectly wonderful
Damn it Nelson, if they've jumped the border then NO IT'S NOT. We don't even GET to the second half of your statement, because the first part is ALREADY a bald-faced lie.
Do you see how that would be a huge benefit for everyone?
Sure do. But we didn't do any of that, did we.
Maybe we'll learn from our mistakes in the future. But for now, it's time to blast the cancer with the chemo. Maybe amputate a gangrenous, necrotic limb if necessary.
If Maryland wife-beating dad ends up in CECOT, well, darn - mistakes happen.
Two separate courts determined he was an MS-13 member, an immigration court when he was originally arrested in 2019 who ordered him deported and a appeals court who also found that he should be deported but then said he can't be deported to El Salvador. But it's a different country in El Salvador now, Bukele has largely cleaned his nation up and it's far safer now. More, even if that's not a consideration we don't have to bring him back here, we just have to move him to another nation (per 2 court orders). He's never coming back to this nation, unless it's on the way to somewhere else we deport him. On top of that his own wife (who now shed tears for him) got 2 separate orders of protection from him for domestic violence. He isn't even one of the illegals Biden allowed to waltz on in, he straight up illegally entered the nation before Biden was handing out permission slips to break in.
“ Two separate courts determined he was an MS-13 member”
No, one cop said an anonymous source said he was a gang member and the first judge accepted that despite a complete lack of corroboration. The second judge merely said there was no evidence that the first judge was wrong. That’s not even close to a corroborated and cross-examined witness, let alone a reasonable interpretation of the facts.
“ he was originally arrested in 2019 who ordered him deported and a appeals court who also found that he should be deported but then said he can't be deported to El Salvador”
OK, perfect. Let’s do it that way. Oh, wait. They violated that decision, didn’t they?
“ But it's a different country in El Salvador now”
So it’s not El Salvador now because the new leader is more brutal than the ones before (who weren’t noted for their gentle natures, either)? If the government wants to make that claim, they are free to see if a court agrees. They can’t, however, just ignore the ruling. That’s how the rule of law works.
“ On top of that his own wife (who now shed tears for him) got 2 separate orders of protection from him for domestic violence.”
And? Shitty people get legal protections, too. That’s the point. All people get equal treatment under the law. Illinois Nazis, the Oklahoma City bomber, the antisemitic arsonist in PA, Jack Abramov, Bob Menendez, and Charles Manson are all horrible people. They all get the same treatment as Mother Teresa and the Dali Lama would. That’s what makes America great. There isn’t a behavior test for legal rights. You get them because you are a human, no other reason.
Y'know Brix, you're one of the folks that I really respect around here so I'm going to ask you a question that Reason staff (and their theater kid/NPC comment section) doesn't seem to want to answer: what is it about this scumbag that's got you so worked up?
Thank you, AT.
I think SGT hit it pretty good, but in my own words:
I'm not worked up about this guy. I'm worked up about the policy of sending people to a foreign prison without trial and with no way to address mistakes, even when directed by a soft handed supreme court. I have a deep distrust of government and I look for a strong defensive position when I see the state bypass our constitutional protections. Due process/trial by jury is one of our few protections against the state. That was bypassed. That's why I'm worked up.
I disagree that he's in jail because El Salvador wants him there. He's in jail because Trump paid them to hold people he sent there. The US is the one that made claims that he is in MS-13. That should have been determined in court.
Why pick this guy? It's to Trump's credit we don't have a more sympathetic victim to whine about, but for now, he's the low hanging fruit. He was illegally sent to prison with no trial. If this stands, I think it will be bad. Just like Obama took and expanded the powers Bush carved out, I see the same thing happening if AOC or Newsom or whatever becomes president.
Plus, I have TDS.
I'm worked up about the policy of sending people to a foreign prison without trial and with no way to address mistakes
Why? It's FAFO. It's not like we're applying it to American citizens. We're applying it to criminal aliens and to foreign visa holders who are only here at our sufferance in the first place.
And now that they've all been made VERY aware of it, they have a choice. For the former: deport voluntarily and have some control over what happens (there's an app for that!), or be deported involuntarily in a way you really won't like. For the latter: remember your manners, be on your best behavior - you're here at our discretion, we don't owe you anything.
I have a deep distrust of government and I look for a strong defensive position when I see the state bypass our constitutional protections. Due process/trial by jury is one of our few protections against the state. That was bypassed.
Well, to that I'd invite you to follow the link I provided SGT.
I share your distrust of government and your respect for Constitutional protections. I'm also quite thoroughly sick of bad actors hiding behind American virtue. Which is what's happening here, make no mistake.
This is a criminal illegal alien. At the end of the day, that's the reality. The same people huffing and puffing about the Constitution and due process and trial by jury and blah blah blah blah blah are, conveniently, the same ones constantly whining about how that darned Constitution is always so racist and sexist and inequitable and doesn't take into account historical injustices and blah blah blah blah blah.
Meaning when they talk about it, they're being disingenuous in the first place. And exploiting its virtues... for the sake of a criminal alien. Why would they DO that? And why would you side with them KNOWING that's what they're doing?
The US is the one that made claims that he is in MS-13. That should have been determined in court.
Who cares if he's MS-13. He's a criminal alien. Unless your stance is, "MS-13 members should be deported to rot in an El Salvadoran jail (which, I notice few people defending this guy are coming out and outright saying), but all the other illegal criminal aliens are peachy keen" - is it? - it doesn't really matter whether he's MS-13 or not. That's a deflection at the end of the day.
I see the same thing happening if AOC or Newsom or whatever becomes president.
Well, luckily the odds of that happening are well below the cause-for-concern line. A Chinese ground-invasion is more likely than an AOC/GN presidency.
It's not like we're applying it to American citizens.
I'm not too comforted by this, but a slippery slope defense isn't worth much so I'll move on.
I'm also quite thoroughly sick of bad actors hiding behind American virtue. Which is what's happening here, make no mistake.
Yes, this is indeed happening. It's a price I'm willing to pay for the legal protections and rights we have in the US.
The same people huffing and puffing about the Constitution and due process and trial by jury and blah blah blah blah blah are, conveniently, the same ones constantly whining about how that darned Constitution is always so racist and sexist and inequitable and doesn't take into account historical injustices and blah blah blah blah blah.
My views often align with liberals when the right is in power because I'm reflexively opposed to the state. I wish everyone on my side of this issue was logically consistent and libertarian, but I don't change my mind just because my views overlap with disingenuous partisans. I get a lot of grief for this, but it's how I roll.
Unless your stance is, "MS-13 members should be deported to rot in an El Salvadoran jail (which, I notice few people defending this guy are coming out and outright saying), but all the other illegal criminal aliens are peachy keen" - is it?
Kinda. I don't think we should be sending anyone to a foreign prison where we have no appeals or recourse when mistakes are made. If this guy was convicted of crimes related to MS-13, I'm fine with a US prison or deporting him to his home country and let them do what they feel is justice. I DO NOT think just coming here illegally is worthy of prison.
A Chinese ground-invasion is more likely than an AOC/GN presidency.
Let's hope neither happens.
It's a price I'm willing to pay for the legal protections and rights we have in the US.
But you're not paying for it. Laken Riley paid for it. Mollie Tibbets paid for it. Kate Steinle paid for it. Ronald Singh paid for it. Jamiel Shaw paid for it. Marilyn Pharis paid for it. Kayla Cuevas and Nisa Mickens paid for it. Josh Wilkerson paid for it. Felecia Williams paid for it.
What about their rights? What about their right to live in a nation that exercises and enforces the Rule of Law - in letter and in spirit - that, in this case, is existing immigration law and border policing?
It's like we care more about the "rights" of someone who shouldn't have even been here in the first place to commit his heinous acts than we do the rights of their victims. That - that right there - is what has people so over letting "the legal protections and rights" be weaponized against them.
It's like walking up and slapping a Christian and then derisively laughing, "Now turn the other cheek!" At which point he does, and gets slapped again with the same mockery, over and over.
That's not what was meant OR intended by what Jesus said, and the bad actor knows it. Same way he knows it wasn't meant or intended for the legal protections and rights of the American People.
I'm fine with a US prison or deporting him to his home country and let them do what they feel is justice.
We tried that. It failed spectacularly. They exploited our better nature and used against us. Often times repeatedly. Usually with total impunity while they're literally walking out of the courthouse.
Sorry man. I get your position - and maybe once I would have even agreed with it - but it's no longer reasonable or tenable.
And like I said - the gauntlet has been thrown. They have a choice. Deport voluntarily, now - or don't. If they decide to go with the latter, than that's not just "coming here illegally" anymore - it's STAYING here illegally, and defiantly - and it IS worthy of prison. Even a foreign one that is pretty darned awful.
He HAD a trial. And an appeal. Lost both.
We do not have to re-try him to honor the deportation order that was already out.
And if you dislike him being called an MS-13 member, take it up with the immigration court AND appeals court that says he was one.
That is more than Reason has provided in opposition.
I don't care what he's called. I care what he's been convicted of.
And no. He did not have a trial, he had a hearing and he was convicted of nothing.
“ He HAD a trial. And an appeal. Lost both.”
Yes. And the only place on the planet he couldn’t be deported to was El Salvador.
Details matter. Out of 291 countries, they sent him to the only one they were barred from sending him to. And they say, “Oh, well. Nothing we can do.”, which is nonsense.
How about this 19 year old who looks like he has followed all the rules and still got grabbed and sent to prison in El Salvador for … walking to his house? Would that bother you, or is it any immigrant, legal, illegal, or in between, that you want deported?
Yes. And the only place on the planet he couldn’t be deported to was El Salvador.
Until that went out the window based on new legal justification.
And they say, “Oh, well. Nothing we can do.”, which is nonsense.
How is it nonsense? What is it you think they CAN do? El Salvador has already made it crystal clear that they're A) not going to turn over an El Salvadoran citizen to a foreign nation (which they are under ZERO obligation from any Court in the world to do); and B) that they're not jerks who would intentionally send who they've deemed a terrorist to their American friends soil.
How about this 19 year old who looks like he has followed all the rules and still got grabbed and sent to prison in El Salvador for … walking to his house?
All the rules except one REALLY REALLY important one, right?
America doesn't really care, Margaret. You don't seem to get it Nelson. Even CNN - CNN!!! - gets it. "Because the bottom line is, this is an area in which the American People, at least the bare majority of them, seem to like what [Trump's] doing." (And just wait until you get to the Deport All Undocumented Immigrants slide.)
Any illegal alien. Any belligerent visa holder or "amnesty/asylum/refugee" seeker.
Zero strikes for the former. Not a single one of them "followed all the rules." Round them up and ship them off to El Salvador prison. One strike for the latter. Even an iota of anything short of sheer gratitude and respect for this nation by the latter, and we take REVOKE the privilege of being in America that we graciously offered them, which they then abused, and ship them back to their COO.
Anyone who doesn't want to face either possibility are free to self-deport. There's an app for that.
It's 100% fair and there's NO valid basis whatsoever for criticism. None.
“ what is it about this scumbag that's got you so worked up?”
AT, this is the strawman that the far right has built. The concern is about the lack of due process, not the man himself. If he had been deported to somewhere that a court hadn’t banned the government from sending him, that would be a much different situation, since he already had a deportation hearing in 2019.
It’s basically the illegal immigration version of the Illinois Nazi case from the 80s. The fact that the people being defended are most likely loathsome people who would only make the world better by dropping dead of a heart attack, that makes it more important he be defended, not less.
The reason America works is because the law (and its foundation, the Constitution) is followed regardless of how virtuous or demonic a person is. It is, in my opinion, the single most important principle in our society: equal protection under the law.
“ as the kind of person most deserving of our American empathy and American mercy?”
Empathy and mercy are irrelevant. In fact, giving them influence in matters of law is destructive. “Deserving” is completely arbitrary, based upon what you think is good, bad, or indifferent.
For example, I think the J6 rioters should have been tried as terrorists and sent to maximum security prisons. That’s what I think they deserved. However, that is completely unjustifiable under the law. It’s my outrage and anger at their desecration of the democratic process and the damage they caused to the Capitol (which is, in my opinion, more holy than any church) that makes me feel that’s what they “deserve”. My emotional response. My moral priorities. But those should be completely irrelevant to the application of the law. Feelings are irrelevant, rights are what matters. If you remember, we had a much longer discussion of this topic a couple months ago that I really enjoyed.
AT, this is the strawman that the far right has built. The concern is about the lack of due process, not the man himself.
It's fake concern, Nelson. You and the media narrators are not fooling anyone.
It is, in my opinion, the single most important principle in our society: equal protection under the law.
More important than life and liberty? Because that's what we're trading here. Equal protection for criminals who shouldn't be here in the first place, for the lives and liberties of their victims and our countrymen.
“ It's fake concern, Nelson.”
How? It’s literally one of the bedrock principles of America and one of the things that make us such a great country. Equal protection. Equal treatment. Respect for the rule of law. Checks and balances. These are all things, like due process, that make us such an extraordinary and, in my opinion, superior country.
“ More important than life and liberty?”
Equal protection under the law is what protects life and liberty. Without a system of laws and the universal application to all people (and respect for the decisions), life and liberty could be taken at will by those who “deserve” equal protection from those who don’t. A system of justice that denies some protections to some people based on any arbitrary standard isn’t a system of justice. Life and liberty are only protected if no one can take either without proving it is legally justified. That’s the heart of a rights-based order, which is what the Constitution creates. And I’m an unabashed fan of the Constitution. It is an awe-inspiring document and has created an extraordinary country.
“Because that's what we're trading here”
You can’t trade rights. You have this weird belief that by denying one person legal protections, it somehow magically protects someone else. It doesn’t. It’s not like not spending money on your gas bill means you can have a date night. Rights aren’t like money. They aren’t fungible.
How?
Because due process wasn't offended.
Equal protection under the law is what protects life and liberty.
Oh come now, don't tell me you're one of those revisionist nutters who think that the Constitution didn't really go into effect until the Reconstruction Amendments were passed (or, worse, like the clowns who think it was all null and void prior to the Civil Rights Act).
Y'know, it's funny - if what you were saying was true, it wouldn't have taken them a near-century to get around to adding it. Equal Protection was established to shore up the 13th and 15th Amendments. That's why it's nestled there so perfectly between them. They didn't want any little clever smartalecs twisting them into ways that would deny their specific intent. (In fact, I'm always frankly a little surprised when people - usually laypeople - go on about 14A without mentioning 13A and 15A. Because you really can't understand the broad strokes without looking at them as a whole.)
Anyway, you're wrong. An inherent valuing of Life and Liberty (and Property) are the seed that become the roots of the tree. Those roots are the anchor which allow for the shoot - in this case, The Constitution - to grow from those roots and form the trunk of the tree. That Constitution branches out into all the things that help guarantee Life and Liberty. Free Speech, Gun Rights, Privacy Protections, Due Process, Fair and Impartial Trials, Guarantees of Counsel and against Cruelty in Punishment. (Later they finally figured out that No Slavery and Equal Protection and Suffrage help too.)
You've got it backwards. But I suspect that's on purpose, given what - who - you're trying to rationalize here.
You can’t trade rights.
But you can prioritize them.
Whose rights take precedence? The Innocent American Citizen who wants to go for a jog in the morning, or the Known Repeat-Offender Criminal Alien who rapes and murders here? Which of those two people, and their rights, should get higher priority under American Rule of Law? You tell me.
The administration is paying the El Salvador government to put deportees in jail.
You miss the point that the court has made an order and it is being defied. You might not like the order, but that is not the main issue. The claim seems to be that if a president doesnt like court orders he can simply ignore them. Would you trust this power to a democrat president?
What order has he defied?
The order preventing Garcia from being deported to El Salvador.
See, now I didn't guess that one because you used the word "defied."
I don't see defiance in anything that occurred here. The order you're referring to was a withholding of removal. Meaning he was eligible for removal, just not to El Salvador. But that order went out the window once there was a new justification for his removal - which was the MS13 ties. That was a fully legal move in "defiance" of no court order.
But then, maybe you're instead referring to the emergency stay - but in this case it was like an order not to spill the milk after it was already puddled all over the floor. There was no "defiance" there either. There's speculation of malice or intentional slow-walking the communication of the order to the appropriate parties, but speculation (particularly by those heavily-prejudiced in favor of criminal aliens who for some weird reason they WANT to see stay in America) isn't evidence of defiance.
At worst, given what we know, it was a harmless mistake (and a warning about the dangers of slow-moving legal processes). Maybe we'll find out something later down the line, but based on what we ACTUALLY KNOW - there's no way to apply the word "defiance" to what happened to this criminal alien. SCOTUS has directed Trump to facilitate its correction. He's done his best, but the issue is really out of America's hands at this point.
So, no matter how you try and slice it, no orders were defied. Not on the set of facts we're dealing with here and now.
Would you trust that power to a Republican judge?
“If they are here illegally, they have a rap sheet”
They do? Without a hearing? Without charges or conviction.
If you read the article, less than 15% (32 of 238) had convictions. Those who support the rule of law aren’t saying they shouldn’t be deported, we’re saying they need a chance to dispute the government’s accusations before that happens.
Why is it so hard for Trumpkins to support the rule of law?
JS;dr
Trump Says Alleged Gang Members Don't Need Hearings Because the Government Is Infallible
At no point in this article did you substantiate that claim even slightly. Let alone point to a quote from Trump that even implies as much.
Jakey Jakey News Is Fakey.
It’s a logical conclusion based on their insistence that no one needs to check and see if they are what the government says they are. The only way denying a transparent legal process for them to dispute the government is justified is if the government is infallible. If there’s a chance the government is wrong, there should be due process.
Also, if theirs is due process and the court makes a ruling, it should go without saying that the government must comply with it. That’s about as basic as the Constitution gets.
That's really the beauty of this particular case - and it illustrates the foolishness of the Court as it tries to rationalize some Constitutional protection for non-citizens not in this nation.
"Ha, I just rounded up a bunch of criminal aliens and shipped them away to their country of origin and/or a nation willing to take them in."
"Hey, you can't do that!"
"Too late, I already did."
"Well you gotta fix this!"
"... I don't know what you expect me to do. I have no right to tell another nation to turn over one of its citizens or wards."
I mean, at this point the Court is straight up beclowning itself by pretending like the President can, or should, ever be able to do such a thing. Like they have any say whatsoever in international law or what other countries should or shouldn't do.
I honestly hope Trump keeps doing this. I also hope this is his response every time a federal judge or a leftist governor or a MSM narrator blows their stack about it.
It’s a logical conclusion based on their insistence that no one needs to check and see if they are what the government says they are.
As long as we don't accidentally get an actual American citizen when doing this, it's really not that big of a deal.
Ok. So a future democrat president says that there are foreign nationals, russians, claiming to be citizens who were january sixth protestors who will be deported to Russia. He makes a list and starts deporting people. Many of them claim they are citizens. The president says illegal aliens dont deserve due process and the liberal media says they are indeed russians. They can't challenge the ruling in court. What would there be to prevent them from deporting citizens? The citizens would claim they can prove they are citizens. The DOJ says they wont be given a chance because the government knows they are not. Would you be ok with that and simply trust that the government wouldn't lie or make a mistake?
Many of them claim they are citizens.
This is easily verified by literally dozens of markers. And, in fact, I'm willing to put chips in on the claim that ICE does in fact verify this with every border jumping punk and belligerent visa overstay they dragnet. You act like it's "OK, we got all the Juan's and Jose's in the zip code - let's pack 'em up and roll 'em out."
It's a little more sophisticated than that, Dave.
But you know what, let's even assume worst case scenario. I've talked about this a few times already in prior articles. Let's say for sake of argument that, despite astronomical odds, they actually DO grab a citizen by mistake. Well, gee, eventually someone is going to miss that citizen and we realize "oops." At which point we make a call to Bukele, tell him he's got one of ours down there, to put him on the return flight after dropping off a few hundred more illegals, then meet him at the airport with a Very Sincere™ apology and a gift card to Applebees as restitution for the hassle.
Restitution is possible. For an American citizen, at least. Can't do anything if they're not Americans.
But hey, A+ for effort Dave.
Two separate courts found he was an MS-13 member back in 2019, the immigration court he was first at and an appeals court when he appealed that decision, and both said he should be deported, so he's had his due process. It seems a bit curious that this judge who says there is no proof never actually held court to determine if he was or wasn't (that's not what his case against Trump was about) and seems to be totally ignoring the two courts who did see the evidence at trial. More, his own wife has gotten 2 restraining orders against him for CDV. He's clearly deportable, 2 courts said so and since then he's beaten his wife twice.
You said this before. Literally copy-and-pasted it. See above to find out why what you are asserting isn’t actually true.
What? We don't trust the science anymore?
I have no problem what so ever with rounding up gangbangers and deporting them out of the country, especially to CECOT.
They have no right to be here and they certainly have no right to any kind of hearing before deportation. They are dangerous, violent felons who illegally entered past our borders, with the intent to commit criminal activities.
I have no sympathy at all for those vermin.
“ I have no problem what so ever with rounding up gangbangers and deporting them out of the country, especially to CECOT.”
I mostly agree (assuming they are illegals), but CECOT isn’t a place to be lauded. “Oh, sure they torture people, but it’s only bad people” is how they do it in Russia (unless they just throw people out a window without trial). Do you believe that Russia is only punishing bad people?
“ they certainly have no right to any kind of hearing before deportation”
According to the Constitution, they do. Citizens aren’t the only ones who have the right to due process, otherwise we could just snatch visiting tourists off the street and chuck them in jail. Everyone, regardless of citizenship, is afforded the right to due process.
“ They are dangerous, violent felons”
If so, that should be easy to prove in a court of law. The alternative is to trust that the government always tells the truth. No one should ever do that.
“ who illegally entered past our borders”
Perhaps. That’s what due process is for.
“ with the intent to commit criminal activities.”
As much as I agree they don’t belong here and should be deported, the vast majority aren’t committing crimes, let alone violent crimes, other than entering the country illegally/overstaying their visas.
If this issue is so important to you, you must have supported Biden and Obama. They annually deported more illegals than any other President, probably because they did it within the law so there wasn’t any time wasted like there is now.
“ I have no sympathy at all for those vermin.”
I have no sympathy for illegals who get deported, but they aren’t vermin. They’re just people who don’t belong in the country.
Really ?
Has anybody bother to explain Merwil Gutiérrez yet ? Or has Reason not gotten that far yet ?
The Donald Trump administration has been accused of deporting a 19-year-old to the 'world's worst prison' despite knowing beforehand they had the wrong guy.
ICE Agents Realize They Arrested Wrong Teen, Say 'Take Him Anyway'
https://www.unilad.com/news/us-news/merwil-gutierrez-el-salvador-prison-trump-352682-20250416
This was inevitable given the behavior of the government. Does anyone think it’s surprising that innocent people are getting renditioned to torture factories?
Gee, they were warned that any other illegal caught up in targeted arrests would be going too. So they targeted the wrong guy and found a different illegal.
The fact of the matter is, CECOT lies outside of US jurisdiction. About the only options are polite diplomatic requests, demands backed up with things like economic sanctions, SEAL team extraction, or an invasion.
Was the government equally infallible in December 2020 when it allowed Biden to ‘steal’ the election?
You think the Trump administration allowed Biden to steal the election from … Trump? Wow.
I'd like to find it hard to believe that Democrats - and most Reason writers - will choose this person as the hill to die on for open borders:
-Illegal Alien
-two court judgements that he is MS-13
-two court judgements that he be deported
-four traffic citations that he failed to show up to
-got married AFTER he was threatened with deportation (not to mention well after he knocked her up)
and my personal favorite
- twice had a restraining order against him by his wife for violent domestic abuse
But some asshole little district judge insists he be returned from the country he is a citizen of because of what, a paperwork snafu? Are you fucking kidding me?!!!!!! Do all of Reason hate Trump so fucking much that reason and common sense is out the fucking window?
Yeah, everyone is ignoring that he was found to be MS-13 in two separate trials that directly and specifically addressed whether he was and instead is listening to a judge who said there is no proof he was in a trial that had nothing to do with determining whether he was or not. He essentially just made that "there's no proof" up out of whole cloth.
The evidence being testimony of a "confidential informant" that got the state wrong, a police officer that was suspended and then fired for misconduct a month later, and a Chicago Bulls hat that I guess means Michael Jordan is the president of MS-13 or something.
Great Moments in Unintended Consequences
The Year: 2025
The Issue: A new President gets serious about deporting illegal aliens, foremost and especially dangerous ones and makes huge progress
The Solution: Democrats and Reason.com takes the opposing side of this effort, because "Open Borders" and "We Hate Trump"
Sounds like a great Libertarian Position! What could possibly go wrong?
Consequences: Democrats and Reason.com lose all credibility, lose supporters who believe in the security of the U.S. AND individual liberties for citizens, the latter which has taken a back seat to opposing anything Trump or Doge does.
He never said 'Infallible" and not long from now when Reason collapses people will remember juvenile tricks like this
The narrative over this case may change now that it's been revealed he was accused of domestic violence and drug possession.
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/maryland-man-kilmar-abrego-garcia-exposed-police-records-violent-repeat-wife-beater
Why? Shitty people are still afforded legal protections and violating a court order by deporting someone to a country that the court specifically said he couldn’t be deported to doesn’t stop counting as violating a court order just because the person is a shitty person.
ms13 and TdA have been designated as Foreign Terrorist
Organizations, putting its members and associates within reach of the national security laws, which are very different then what you learned in 5th grade civics. For example, the Secretary of state has unilateral authority to deny or withdraw any visa or legal status if a person "MAY' be a threat to national interest. Upheld by Scotus last fall, 9-0 decision written by Jackson. Zero due process beyond the secretary reviewing a file and signing an order. INA section 237 toward the bottom.
18 USC 2339b makes providing 'material support' to a Foreign Terrorist organization, like MS13, is a 20 year felony. And 'material support is very broad.