In Trump's Revenge Fantasy, Biden Did Not Actually Pardon Members of the January 6 Committee
The president says those legislators are "subject to investigation at the highest level," notwithstanding their pardons and the Speech or Debate Clause.

On his way out the door in January, then-President Joe Biden preemptively pardoned five of his own relatives, along with several former federal officials and the members of the House select committee that investigated the 2021 riot at the U.S. Capitol. Or did he?
According to President Donald Trump, those pardons did not really happen. "The 'Pardons' that Sleepy Joe Biden gave to the Unselect Committee of Political Thugs, and many others, are hereby declared VOID, VACANT, AND OF NO FURTHER FORCE OR EFFECT, because of the fact that they were done by Autopen," Trump wrote on Truth Social late Sunday night. "In other words, Joe Biden did not sign them but, more importantly, he did not know anything about them!"
Contrary to what Trump seems to think, presidents have no authority to override their predecessors' acts of clemency, and the use of an autopen does not render presidential pardons invalid. In other words, Trump's social media rant cannot undo what Biden did, allowing the criminal investigations that the pardons were aimed at blocking. But it does suggest that Trump, despite his intermittent attempts to assure us that he won't use his presidential powers to punish his political opponents in the guise of criminal justice, would like very much to do exactly that.
Biden's nakedly self-interested pardons, which he said were necessary to protect his relatives and allies from legally baseless, politically motivated investigations by the incoming Trump administration, lent credence to vague claims that the pardon recipients had committed crimes. They also set a dangerous precedent by inviting future presidents to shield their underlings from accountability for breaking the law. They nevertheless fell within Biden's broad constitutional authority to "grant reprieves and pardons for offences against the United States, except in cases of impeachment."
Is Trump right that pardons are valid only if they carry the president's manual signature? Not according to the Constitution, which imposes no such requirement.
"Absent a constitutional constraint, the President's ability to commute a sentence is not subject to any further formal limits or requirements," the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit noted last year in Rosemond v. Hudgins, which involved a prisoner who claimed that Trump's remarks during a telephone call qualified as a commutation. That principle, the appeals court said, "resolves the matter of whether a writing is required as part of the President's exercise of the clemency power. The answer is undoubtedly no."
If "a writing" is not required to make a pardon valid, it follows that a manual signature is not required either. The whole debate about exactly which documents Biden may have signed with an autopen is therefore beside the point.
When a president signs legislation, the process is much more constrained than when he grants clemency, since it involves another branch of government and a constitutionally specified procedure. But even in this context, the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel advised in 2002, a manual signature is not required.
"The Constitution provides that a 'Bill' that has passed both Houses of Congress becomes law when the President, having 'approved,' 'shall sign it,'" Principal Deputy Attorney General M. Edward Whelan III noted in a two-page memo to Alberto Gonzales, George W. Bush's second attorney general. "You have asked whether the President will have 'sign[ed]' H.J. Res. 174 when a White House aide, acting at the President's specific direction, affixes the President's signature to H.J. Res. 174. For the reasons that we briefly outline here, we conclude that the answer is yes."
Just as the requirement that the president indicate his disapproval of a bill by "return[ing] it" to "that House in which it shall have originated" does not mean he has to "personally deliver the rejected bill to Congress," Whelan wrote, "we do not believe that the requirement that the president 'sign' a bill in order to manifest his approval of it requires that he personally put pen to paper." Rather, Whelan said, "the word 'sign' is expansive enough to include the meaning of 'cause the bill to bear the President's signature.'"
Three years later, the Office of Legal Counsel reaffirmed that position in a 30-page memo based on a much more detailed analysis. "We conclude that the President need not personally perform the physical act of affixing his signature to a bill he approves and decides to sign in order for the bill to become law," Deputy Assistant Attorney General Howard C. Nielson Jr. wrote. "Rather, the President may sign a bill within the meaning of Article I, Section 7 by directing a subordinate to affix the President's signature to such a bill, for example by autopen."
After Trump's post about Biden's pardons, a reporter asked him whether he thought the use of an autopen would invalidate other presidential actions by Biden. "It's not my decision," Trump replied. "That would be up to a court. But I would say that they're null and void, because I'm sure that Biden didn't have any idea that it was taking place."
Trump thus seemed to retreat from the claim that he could unilaterally and retroactively "declare" that Biden's decisions are "VOID, VACANT, AND OF NO FURTHER FORCE OR EFFECT." And as in his Truth Social post, he conflated the use of an autopen with the question of whether Biden actually approved the pardons.
"The necessary Pardoning Documents were not explained to, or approved by, Biden," Trump averred on Truth Social. "He knew nothing about them, and the people that did may have committed a crime."
By January 20, according to Trump, Biden was a doddering old man who was so out of it that he did not even understand what was being done in his name. If so, the autopen is a red herring, since Biden's underlings could have simply presented the pardons to him and told him to sign them. But by the same logic, Biden's cognitive decline would cast doubt on the validity of pretty much everything he ostensibly did toward the end of his term.
If Biden was not responsible for the pardons, who was? Trump thinks the members of the January 6 committee "were probably responsible for the Documents that were signed on their behalf without the knowledge or consent of the Worst President in the History of our Country, Crooked Joe Biden!"
Trump wants to have it both ways. Biden was "crooked," which implies deliberate misconduct. But he also was so senile that he had no idea what was going on, which absolves him of responsibility for the pardons and, presumably, many of the other things that made him "the Worst President in the History of our Country."
The idea that the pardons were instigated by the legislators who investigated the Capitol riot is inconsistent with their publicly voiced concerns about the implications of the clemency that Biden ultimately granted. "As soon as you take a pardon, it looks like you are guilty of something," former Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R–Ill.) noted two weeks before the pardons. "I am guilty of nothing besides bringing the truth to the American people and, in the process, embarrassing Donald Trump, because, for 187 minutes [during the riot], he sat there and did absolutely nothing and showed how weak and scared he truly was. So, no, I don't want it."
Rep. Adam Schiff (D–Calif.), now a senator, took a similar position. "I've been very public about my point of view, which is that it would be the wrong precedent to set," he said. "I don't want to see each president hereafter on their way out the door giving a broad category of pardons to members of their administration….We're all enormously proud of the work that we did. We stand by it. We feel we have the protection of the Speech [or] Debate Cause. My own feeling is, let's just avoid this kind of broad precedent….I'm urging that [Biden] not go down that road."
Meanwhile, according to Trump, Schiff et al. were working behind the scenes to arrange the pardons they claimed they did not want—pardons that Biden was not otherwise inclined to grant and did not even realize he had granted. And the upshot, Trump says, is that the committee members "should fully understand that they are subject to investigation at the highest level."
Investigation for what, exactly? Trump reiterated his demonstrably false claim that the committee members "destroyed and deleted ALL evidence obtained during their two year Witch Hunt of me." Even less plausibly, he has claimed the legislators are guilty of "treason," which is punishable by death or by a prison sentence of at least five years. A person commits that crime when he "ow[es] allegiance to the United States" and "levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere."
As Kinzinger suggested, Trump's real beef with him and his former colleagues is the detailed evidence they presented of his complicity in the assault on the Capitol, which he provoked with his stolen-election fantasy and allowed to play out for hours before intervening. But as Schiff noted, that work is protected from "investigation at the highest level" by the Constitution, which says members of Congress "shall not be questioned in any other Place" for "any Speech or Debate in either House."
The current and former legislators whom Trump wants to investigate do not seem to be quaking in their boots. "I am not afraid of Trump's latest midnight rant that has no basis in reality," Rep. Bennie Thompson (D–Miss.), who chaired the January 6 committee, told Axios. When a Trump supporter taunted Kinzinger on X, saying "your pardon is invalid" and "you're going to jail cuck boy," the former congressman replied: "Please! You guys have been threatening this forever! Bring it on, it's getting boring waiting."
Trump's renewed interest in prosecuting Thompson et al. for nonexistent crimes contradicts what he was saying last December. In a Meet the Press interview, Kristen Welker asked Trump if he expected Kash Patel, his nominee for FBI director, to "launch investigations" of the many "deep state" actors that Patel named as enemies of democracy and the Constitution in his 2023 book Government Gangsters.
Patel's enemies list included 60 former executive branch officials, ranging from Democrats such as Biden and Hillary Clinton to Trump appointees such as former Attorney General Bill Barr and former White House Counsel Pat Cipollone. The list was "not exhaustive," Patel noted. "It does not, for example, include other corrupt actors of the first order such as Congressmen Adam Schiff and Eric Swalwell." Nor did it include "the fake news media," which Patel also portrayed as part of the "deep state" conspiracy.
Welker asked Trump if he would "direct" Patel to investigate those alleged criminals. "No," Trump replied. "Not at all. Not at all." Trump said Patel, whom he described as "very fair," is "going to do what he thinks is right."
Patel, for his part, insisted during his confirmation hearing that he was not interested in "retributive actions," despite his promise to "go out and find the conspirators," including journalists as well as public officials. "I have no interest, no desire, and will not, if confirmed, go backwards," Patel told the Senate Judiciary Committee. "There will be no politicization at the FBI. There will be no retributive actions taken by any FBI, should I be confirmed as the FBI director….The only thing that will matter if I'm confirmed as a director of the FBI is a de-weaponized, de-politicized system of law enforcement completely devoted to rigorous obedience to the Constitution and a singular standard of justice."
Trump nevertheless insists that his enemies, notwithstanding their pardons and the Speech or Debate Clause, "are subject to investigation at the highest level." He not only cannot let go of his many grudges; he cannot stop talking about them, even when there is no realistic way to act on them.
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>>Biden Did Not Actually Pardon Members of the January 6 Committee
okay, Counselor ... for what were members of the January 6 Committee pardoned?
Stuff and things.
The Constitution has never required the POTUS to specify which crimes are being pardoned. Presidents can and have issued pardons covering ALL potential crimes that the recipients might have committed. The ONLY limits to the presidential pardon power are that it only applies to federal crimes, and that it cannot cover future crimes.
Yes. But that doesn't answer the question, for what were members of the January 6 Committee pardoned?
Trump didn't care - after all, lawfare doesn't require a specific crime, right? This was a defence against lawfare.
I know you're enough of an authoritarian POS to think that anyone going against Dear Leader must be a criminal,
We know you're enough of a TDS-addled pile of steaming, lying shit to swallow whatever that other TDS-addled pile of steaming, lying shit posts.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
The constitution has never said that a president can’t fire a judge either.
It doesn't say he has the power to, and therefore he hasn't.
"Pardon" has a specific meaning. Everything I have read shows surprise at pardoning his family for incidents which were never hinted at, investigated, charged, tried, or convicted.
How can you pardon someone for something no one knows about? Pardons are like patents; you publish the crime or novel idea as part of the process. A secret pardon is contrary to ordinary English usage.
Legal meaning is of course entirely dependent on which judge got out of which side of which bed that morning.
How can you pardon someone for something no one knows about? Pardons are like patents;
Circular argument. Who says that pardons are like patents? And after all we don't know what other crimes Nixon committed...
Cite?
Because the USSC has actually held a pardon is an admittance to a crime in a case where someone refused a pardon.
Perhaps we might be able to find a moonlighting prosecutor in Georgia who will prosecute them for something.
A pardon does NOT mean that they cannot still be investigated. The dirt that comes out may be more damaging than a prison term to these government parasites.
Hahahahahahahahaha, oh, JS. DR.
"In Reality, Biden Did Not Actually Pardon Members of the January 6 Committee, Because Biden Hasn't Done Anything Over the Last Four Years Other Than Shit His Own Pants."
My goodness, if Sullum is like this after only six weeks of Trump 47, can you even imagine what he'll be like after the next 202 weeks of Trump plus 416 weeks of Vance 48? Or an additional 416 weeks of Ivanka 49? And then Barron 50?
No, nevermind. Sullum will have definitely OD'd by that point.
Anything and everything that someone might ever claim that they did, apparently.
What's really odd is that if they can't be questioned or charged over anything that happened on the floor of Congress, and presumably have some version of qualified immunity for anything that they can make a case they thought was part of the job, then the only thing they could imaginably even need protection from is an accusation that there was some kind of conspiracy conducted completely outside of working hours, meant to steer the proceedings of the committee and produce a particular outcome, but how would that be at all distinguishable from the "politics as usual" which likely surrounds almost any significant committee proceeding done within the purview of Congress.
Biden Did Not Actually Pardon Members of the January 6 Committee
Cool. Then we can go after them.
It's my revenge fantasy too, because fuck Nazis, which is exactly what the committee members were.
Nah, they put “Anti” in front of their names.
The Nazis are the Trump regime.
Evidence, asshole? Post links and citations, please.
Don’t ask a retarded leftist retard for evidence.
Hey, it's how I piss Jeffy off on a daily basis.
Sorry useful tool, but Trump never removed his opponent from a ballot. You guys did.
Trump never used the Government against his opponent. You guys did.
Trump never manufactured and charged his opponents with novel crimes. You guys did.
Trump never tried to bankrupt his opponents. You guys did.
Trump never censored newspapers or speech on the internet. You guys did.
Trump didn't overcharge and imprison dissidents for crimes like "trespassing" or "parading". You guys did.
Trump never used the FBI to illegally spy on his opponent's campaign. You guys did.
Trump never hired professional rioters to burn down cities. You guys did.
Trump never tried to assassinate the opposition candidate. You guys did... twice.
Trump never hired a Hollywood director to alter evidence for a Senate hearing. You guys did.
The Trump campaign didn't concoct a phony report about his opponent being a foreign spy, and then use that fraudulent document to convince a judge to allow him to spy. You guys did.
Trump never tried to impeach his political opponent twice using evidence that actually exonerated them, and implicated him. You guys did.
^this
Act Blue is getting more retarded
That’s ok. They’re being investigated now by the DoJ.
No, they're fighting for Ukraine.
You misspelled "Biden."
Sullum is more broken than sarc.
Jacob, are you fine with a non president signing 99% of all presidential document. Even knowing Biden seemingly was unaware of some of his autopenned EOs?
Is Trump right that pardons are valid only if they carry the president's manual signature? Not according to the Constitution, which imposes no such requirement.
Does Sullum think Autopens existed in 1776?
Of course he does. Of course, they were frilly feather type things, that the British used.
Sullum is beating a strawman. It isn't the Autopen that Trump is objecting to. Autopen is just evidence of his actual accusation: That Biden was not authorizing these acts.
So, as usual, Sullum is looking at a statement, fantasizing the most uncharitable reading of it, and then attacking that meaning with snide condescension. He has done this repeatedly, and it is one of his most tiresome activities.
I think that it is HIGHLY unlikely that Trump can undo these commutations. It will be almost IMPOSSIBLE to confirm that Biden had no knowledge of these signed acts. But that is a case Sullum doesn't want to make, because it is much easier for him to pick on a strawman.
This. I don't think I'm with Trump in overriding a predecessor's pardons, but there is certainly a question about the validity of much of what Biden did, especially at the end of his term.
Even if prosecution is barred for these people, I don't see how an investigation can't happen and then inform the public.
I read less and less of Reason now because of people like JS (this article)
take a look at this substack:
https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/what-did-joe-know
https://boriquagato.substack.com/
Great take on the "play" Trump is making -- seriously, after reading stuff like bad cattitude and coffee & covid and the depth of discussion, reason reeks so shallow...
Trump has no evidence for that accusation.
Ok, retard.
That's the question, isn't it? He's posed it, and all you anti-Trumpers do is deny it's a valid question.
When the trolls and bots just dismiss stuff like it’s self evident, it’s usually over the mark.
So who was signing them? We know it wasn't Biden.
Are they valid when the president is so senile that the staff don't even let him actually sign the pardons himself?
There's no restriction on the president giving an order for it to be signed by a secretary (the 1776 equivalent). You have to demonstrate that Biden didn't authorize the pardon.
Now, there may actually be documentation that Biden gave a wide-spanning "pardon everyone associated with the January 6th commission for everything" instruction, and his personnel did that and signed his name under that order.
That might be invalid, but that's the only sort of situation that I can see this challenge working.
"You have to demonstrate that Biden didn't authorize the pardon."
Yes. That's my point. Biden was judged to be too senile to face charges for his handling of classified documents, and Biden was judged to be too senile to run again by his own party's mandarins who ignored their own primaries, declared Joe had pulled out by tweet and crowned Kamala instead.
Has anyone even asked Joe if he pardoned Cheney and Schiff, or even if it was him who tweeted his pullout? I'm not sure he'd play along any more even if he understood the question.
Has anyone even seen Joe since he left office?
Alternatively, they CAN'T even show meeting minutes or recordings where Biden said something like "Pardon everyone associated with the Jan 6 Commission."
We don't know what evidence the President has. We don't know what theories he has. We do know for a fact that many of these Pardons were announced when Biden was vacationing or otherwise away from the Whitehouse. This is not proof, but it does seem fishy. Trump is making an accusation ("Biden did not/could not authorize these pardons") and that is a difficult but not impossible accusation to prove.
Which is why Sullum's snide dissembling is so dishonest. He is saying, "Oh a signature isn't required." Okay, sure. But you need SOME proof that Biden authorized these things. You can't come out and say, "Oh by the way, uh...Biden totally pardoned these five people last week...believe me!"
I have participated in audits before- in processes that don't require a specific approval signature. Somewhere, there is a contemporaneous note from meetings, "Joe agreed this is the path forward". If Autopens are to be legitimate, there needs to be some sort of electronic paper-trail- a justification for invoking it.
This isn't rocket science, and it is in fact good governance. Sullum should at least acknowledge that if a signature isn't required, we need some proof that the president actually authorized a pardon. But instead, he spends an entire article dissecting and parsing a SOCIAL MEDIA POST. It's insane how terrible this is.
Cite?
Yes he does.
I don't think there is anything that rises to the level of proof that Biden was not making the decisions. But there is certainly some evidence to suggest that at least in some cases he wasn't.
1) We all saw the Biden/Trump debate. Biden barely knew what planet he's on.
2) Biden has been officially declared non compos mentis by Special Counsel Robert Hur, who justified his refusal to prosecute this guilty man because Biden was unable to participate in his own defense.
Amen. JS keeps beating the wrong drum.
I'm not particularly concerned with the autopen use, but it does hint at the possibility of a method of corruption and a couple of other potentially more troubling concerns:
1. Was the use made with the authorization / consent of the actual elected sitting president?
2. Was he involved at all in the decision-making process that led to the signing?
3. Was he cognitively capable of understanding what he was signing and the implications?
Because if any of those 3 are a 'no', you wouldn't have a document that stands up in court for a car loan, let alone an executive order or a pardon by the leader of the executive branch of the federal government. Or even signing duly passed congressional legislation.
And we do have at least some evidence that this may be the case. Remember when Speaker Mike Johnson went to the White House, to protest Biden's EO restricting LNG exports? And Biden was all 'No, no, I never did'?
https://nypost.com/2025/01/18/us-news/president-biden-insisted-he-didnt-sign-executive-order-just-weeks-after-doing-so-speaker-mike-johnson/
So that's very well documented. Was Biden:
1. Being a lying / spinning politician
2. Forgetful to the extreme
3. Being deceived about what he was agreeing to sign
4. Not even involved or aware
I think that the Trump administration has a steep uphill climb to prove that he didn't authorize this, but the route is about whether he was actively involved in a salient manner, whereas the evidence may be the use of the autopen so frequently.
Actually they had a device that allowed a signature to be copied by someone else, similar to a pantograph.
"Absent a constitutional constraint, the President's ability to commute a sentence is not subject to any further formal limits or requirements," the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit noted last year in Rosemond v. Hudgins, which involved a prisoner who claimed that Trump's remarks during a telephone call qualified as a commutation. That principle, the appeals court said, "resolves the matter of whether a writing is required as part of the President's exercise of the clemency power. The answer is undoubtedly no."
Lolwut.
Weird that you take the opposite stance here you did with your article claiming Trump had to follow proper processes to declassified documents taken to Mar A Lago. What's (D)ifferent? That case actually relied on the Navy v Egan precedent.
What's different is that pardons are a power granted to the President by the Constitution. Whereas classification and declassification of documents is a power created by acts of Congress.
Besides, Trump is on tape admitting that the NEVER DID declassify those documents, so that's a non-issue.
Is a pardon a valid pardon if it isn't actually signed by the president and instead, signed by an underling?
Whereas classification and declassification of documents is a power created by acts of Congress.
False. Navy v Egan.
God you guys are retarded and will say anything without any inspection of validity.
Also cite on second claim?
They're not sending their best.
Our enemies are not impressive people to begin with. I'm concerned that they may be sending their best.
But even in this context, the Justice Department's Office of Legal Counsel advised in 2002, a manual signature is not required.
OLC is not the USSC retard.
Again. You treated opinions of OLC different during thr Mar A Lago raid.
After Trump's post about Biden's pardons, a reporter asked him whether he thought the use of an autopen would invalidate other presidential actions by Biden. "It's not my decision," Trump replied. "That would be up to a court. But I would say that they're null and void, because I'm sure that Biden didn't have any idea that it was taking place."
Trump thus seemed to retreat from the claim that he could unilaterally and retroactively "declare" that Biden's decisions are "VOID, VACANT, AND OF NO FURTHER FORCE OR EFFECT." And as in his Truth Social post, he conflated the use of an autopen with the question of whether Biden actually approved the pardons.
What the fuck Sullum? He literally says he doesn't know if Biden even knew about the pardons. This follows from Mike Johnson and a discussion where Biden didn't know about an EO he signed.
How broken are you?
Investigation for what, exactly? Trump reiterated his demonstrably false claim that the committee members "destroyed and deleted ALL evidence obtained during their two year Witch Hunt of me."
You got him this time Sullum! They didn't delete all the evidence. Just a terabytes worth. Got him!
What a fucking retard.
Here’s a fun story: Trump just stripped Hunter Biden of his secret service detail, while he’s in South Africa!
Nice knowing you dude.
Hopefully Hunter visits some farms.
And Ashley Biden.
How gullible are you? They didn't delete ANY evidence.
Citation?
I guess all those complaints about deleting evidence and Congress Critters saying so were all figments of half the country's imaginations.
They didn't delete ANY evidence.
What the hell are you trying to pull? There's a hell of a lot of testimony and compelling evidence that that's exactly what they did.
Lol. Leftist lying fuck is retarded and a liar.
Then where are all the deposition videos? IIRC, the Committee itself said that the videos were deleted.
We know he paused LNG shipments to Europe and had no idea he did it.
Is it too much to request SOME evidence that he had ANY input in the pardons? Several were signed when he was not there. Some proof he communicated with an aide would be nice, no?
Contrary to what Trump seems to think, presidents have no authority to override their predecessors' acts of clemency, and the use of an autopen does not render presidential pardons invalid.
FAKEY JAKEY JACOB SULLUM "LIBERTARIANISM" EVERYONE!
Who signed those orders, Jake? WHO ACTUALLY SIGNED THEM? Was it POTUS? We all know it wasn't POTUS. So WHO WAS IT, and why won't you report on that?
If it was a secretary signing it under Biden's instructions, why do you think that would that invalidate it? There's no requirement that Biden has to physically hold a pen.
The only two possible challenges that I see are
1: Biden didn't do it at all and it was done without his knowledge.
2: Biden issued a sweeping instruction that was so vague that it invalidates the concept of a pardon.
While I see 2 as a valid challenge, Trump is claiming 1.
I don't think that 1 is even provable without a smoking gun confession, and it's trivially easy to counter. All you need is a single statement from Biden himself. That isn't an uphill battle. It's a sheer cliff with a battlement on top.
Let's drag him in front of Congress, in handcuffs, and ask him. Emergency session. No time to prepare, no time to get the story right, no time to build a fake Congress set for him to practice in, no time for Dr. Jill to pump him full of amphetamines (and then rush him back to Delaware for detox) - just have Mr. Lucidity list everyone he pardoned, what he pardoned them of, and why.
$20 says he won't even know he pardoned his own crackhead kid.
It wasn't "under Biden's instructions." The guy was a bowl of tapioca pudding. I, for one, really want to know who was running this country for the last four years. Don't you?
THAT'S what this is ultimately about. Not the pardons - but about who was actually running things in this so-called "representative government" that the Democrats are anything but.
This is also, incidentally, a big part of why Trump splattered their brains against the wall in the polls and the vote.
I think the proper thing to do is appoint a special counsel to investigate the use of the autopen and threaten criminal referrals for anyone who lies to the special counsel's office.
And I don't just mean regarding his pardons, but all EOs coming from the WH. It's IMO important just for the public to know what was actually going on in the Biden WH, the criminal issues aside.
EO's, pardons, legislation, 'dear friend' letters, whatever.
If 'staffers', no matter how senior, were usurping the power of the executive, we all deserve to know.
It's going to be very, very hard to prove, even with a lot of circumstantial evidence.
Nice thought but special counsels have lost their integrity to a lot of people.
Really Trump bring this up as to make the media start to cover it. Hacks like Sullum will carry the dem line. Agree or not, people know about it now and in the future might change things.
Biden promised to be a transparent president remember?
Does Biden have to be in the state? Can Biden just say "sec, pardon who you want?" He gave instructions.
Shouldn't there be a record of how the pardon was issued? Can I get an autopen and just pardon whoever?
Do I think it can be proven that Biden didn't know? No. I mean we all know he didn't know what was going on. We all know that someone else signed all the pardons, just like all the money they tried to funnel. Providing it? I don't think that will be possible.
Basically, we had a government run by who knows who (We agree not Biden), just putting his name on stuff they liked. If a corporation did that you can bet the Dems would want it destroyed
It's possible that President Trump has a "smoking gun" confession -- and it doesn't have to come from Pretendent Biden, either -- it can be as simple as a confirmed text conversation where discussions were made on what to do, with clear evidence that Pretendent Biden wasn't involved, ending with "Ok, let's get the auto-pen out. We can tell Biden what he signed when he gets back from vacation!"
Trump is not making a general claim that he can rescind pardon. He is making a specific claim that these pardons are procedurally invalid. Have no idea whether that is a valid claim.
On the other hand, the Jan 6 Committee was very irregular in its formation and how it conducted itself. One might be more sympathetic about charges against Trump taking revenge against political enemies if his political enemies had not been so vehement about taking vengeance on him.
"Procedurally invalid"? The Constitution does not set out any procedure for pardons. Biden pardoned them, end of story.
Yeah, he pardoned them for nothing.
He preemptively pardoned General Milley and others for the DEEP DARK SINS of pissing Dear Leader off!!! Let us therefor try our VERY best to SNOT "Execute General Milley" and "Hang Mike Pence" (without benefit of trials), by Trump-lies-enraged Trumpanzees gone apeshit, and their mob violence!
If Trump and Trumpanzees can firmly vow to STOP egging on uncontrolled political violence by lied-to mobs, maybe THEN Biden and other Demon-Crap future POTUSes can STOP trying to protect the innocent potential victims of LIED-TO-MOBSTER-MOB VIOLENCE with pardons, OK?
Not relevant, they got pardoned. There is no requirement that a person can't get a pardon prior to indictment.
Just remember, the rules you make for others are the rules you make for yourself.
Yes, butt that applies ONLY to lesser mortals like Demon-Craps and real libertarians... Shit does SNOT apply to the Uber-Beings and Slurperior Ones such Ass The Leaders and (Obedient) Followers of the Rethugglican Church!!!
Leftists reject that notion. They are explicit that different rules apply to different classes of people.
These have always been the rules.
Cite?
I am perfectly fine with a rule that says a pardon must be done with proof that the President himself made that pardon -- on that the President signed this Executive Order or signed that veto or that law (although the latter doesn't matter, because if the President didn't sign it, it becomes law anyway).
If the end result of this inquiry is a requirement that every Presidential act be notarized by two witnesses, I consider that a good thing!
It means we're far less likely to have a Pretendent who doesn't know where or who he is half of the time -- his cabinet and Vice President would appropriately 25th Amendment him!
It’s relevant if a staffer pardoned them without the participation of the president.
The whole point is that HE didn’t.
Does the President need to know what he is signing off on for it to be valid?
Does the President need to know whether his signature was affixed to a document at all for it to be valid? If not, how open to abuse is that?
There are more requirements for what an engineer of record has to do to sign off on construction documents for them to be valid than the President signing documents with legal force? That does not seem right.
If nothing else happens, if this controversy ends with an increase in the formalization of a Presidential signature, to avoid controversies like this in the future, I think that would be a very good thing!
How can you prove HE did it?
No evidence has been presented.
I think that he probably did pardon them. But I can't know.
What if he didn't though? What if some staffer wrote them up and auto-signed them with Biden's name and without his knowledge? Surely if that's what actually happened (which is possible, but I'm not claiming it's what happened), I would think that would make them invalid.
Constitution also doesn't set out any procedure for declassification, so I guess you just proved the Mar-A-Lago raid had no basis?
No, the Jan 6 Committee was NOT in any way "irregular" in either its formation or how it conducted itself. Investigating Trump's crimes was not "taking vengeance on him." And the Constitution does not require ANY procedure for the presidential pardon. The President can issue a pardon VERBALLY if he feels like it.
But the President has to do it, and be aware he's doing it. That's Trump's claim, that Senile Joe was not aware of what he was doing.
The committee violated its own rules for formation you dumb leftist fuck.
And a president can declassify information with a thought. My citation though exists dumbass. Egan v Navy.
Is this Sullum raging like a fucking moron with a sock?
The minority party was not permitted to choose its members and Congressional hearings aren't allowed to serve as investigators without any actual crime. They have different rules than courts, so them being used as an open-ended investigation is absolutely wrong.
What crime did Trump commit on Jan 6 again? He asked for national guard - denied. He told supporters to be peaceful.
Yes, those evil J6s that walked in with the police escort causing all that property damage unlike CHOP in Seattle that were killing and raping for their cause.
Can the President issue a pardon if no-one is around to hear it?
So by Sullum's argument, the President could die and so long as his cabinet didn't boot him from office they could autopen every EO or law they desired for the rest of the term without a problem.
Peak Reason-tier libertarianism.
Sullum intentionally missed the entire point of the autopen issue. It is from a NYPost story where it was said an Aide was using it to sign bills without even consulting Biden.
Sullum is just being a dishonest shit weasel.
Trump took no action until that story dropped.
That "story" is completely made up.
How do you figure. This isn't HuffPo, champ. If you're going to ignore all the evidence, you better have a good explanation ready.
Think this is Sullum with how mich he is raging and deflecting.
Cite?
Burden of proof is on the accuser. Prove that the Post made up the story.
Had he died in office - they would have tried.
Are we sure he DIDN'T die in office?
Sp you think we’re living through the plot from ‘Dave’?
Is there any crazy Trump act or proclamation that the MAGAs will not defend as if it is the most normal and obvious thing?
You’re not gonna enjoy the next 8 years of the Trump presidency.
+1
Twelve. President Vance gets two terms.
Indeed.
Is there any topic you'll try to understand the actual issues?
If an aide was using the autopen without informing Joe, as has been reported by Mike Johnson and the NYPost, is the action legal?
Neither Mike Johnson nor the NY ComPost are credible sources.
But you are? And Molly? And Biden?
And you are?
Go fuck yourself, clown.
I know right?!
I’ll only listen to what those stalwarts of truth and justice the New York Times or CNN tell me.
Cite?
The Post has shown the receipts and made their case. Show how they and Mike Johnson are wrong. The burden or proof lies on the accuser, after all.
Hell, Mike Johnson gave Biden benefit of the doubt that he was not just lying through his teeth to him.
Ok genius, what is a credible source? I mean you post so many facts. I'm sure Schiff is a credible source right? Everyone at MSNBC?
You are an idiot saying that the Speaker of the House is not a credible source. Yeah NY Post not credible expect for everything they print like COVID on.
"Is there any crazy Trump act or proclamation that the MAGAs will not defend as if it is the most normal and obvious thing?"
No! See unprovoked trade wars and threatened military conquests of Canada, Greenland, the Gaza Strip, Panama, Nancy Pelosi's mansion, and maybe more...
Trump didn’t say the use of the auto pen alone was enough to render the pardons invalid. He said the issue was whether Biden actually possessed the intent to issue the passions. ("In other words, Joe Biden did not sign them but, more importantly, he did not know anything about them!")
Does that mean Trump can unilaterally undo them? Nope. Does it mean there may be grounds to investigate whether they were ever actually issued by Biden? I think so.
Of course, if Biden isn’t senile and if did possess the requisite intent, why doesn’t he just come out tomorrow, make a public statement and say he issued them? Seems like that would put the whole thing to rest.
They're never letting that dementia-addled, dessicated fossil anywhere near a video camera ever again.
That’s a mean thing to say about Kamala ok, not really,
Biden, General Milley, and Mike Pence (of "Hang Mike Pence" fame, ass a victim, along with the others, of the unrestrained political-violence threats of Dear Leader) have now fled (for political asylum) to North Korea, where they will find more freedom from extrajudicial political violence, than they find here, under Our Very Own, Most Orange, Dear Leader!!! They're all in hiding, and I will SNOT reveal exactly WHERE, in North Korea, that they are hiding!!!
Since you bring up General Mark Milley.
https://forum.pafoa.org/showthread.php?t=379970&p=4515565#post4515565
If Milley won't be punished for TREASON, why should he be punished for telling the truth?
The UCMJ has simply ceased to exist by way of its blatantly arbitrary, discriminatory and partisan application.
The "leadership" of the U.S. military has forfeited all respect, and the destruction of respect for military law was merely collateral damage.
As long as Milly's not stretching a rope, the UCMJ is an utter nullity.
So madmen (mad, mentally unstable POTUSes) in power MUST be OBEYED, and this is FAR more important than averting a human-race-destroying nuclear war, then, in Your PervFected, mind-infected, and neglected mind, then?
This shit (threat) has happened before! Would we all be better off DEAD from NUKES, Death-Loving Wonder Child?
From "Perplexity", my fave AI...
There are accounts suggesting that Defense Secretary James Schlesinger, during the final days of President Richard Nixon's administration, gave orders to the military to disregard potentially dangerous or unauthorized commands from Nixon, particularly concerning nuclear weapons. Here are the key details:
Schlesinger reportedly instructed the Joint Chiefs of Staff that any emergency orders from Nixon, including those related to nuclear weapons, should first be cleared by him or Secretary of State Henry Kissinger. This was due to concerns over Nixon's instability during the Watergate crisis, as he was under immense strain and reportedly drinking heavily
These actions were precautionary and aimed at preventing any rash or unauthorized decisions. Schlesinger's concerns were amplified by Nixon's own remarks about his power over nuclear weapons, such as his statement that he could pick up the phone and cause massive destruction in a short time
While these measures were widely reported, Schlesinger had no legal authority to override presidential orders. It remains unclear what would have happened if Nixon had issued a direct nuclear launch order
These events highlight the extraordinary steps taken by senior officials during a period of political turmoil to ensure stability and prevent catastrophic decisions.
https://time.com/5388648/watergate-nixon-anonymous-op-ed/
An Anonymous Trump Official Claims Insiders Are ‘Thwarting’ Him. That May Have Happened to Nixon Too
I'm sick and tired of people calling President Trump a "madman" by the very people who, for four years, did their best to hide Pretendent Biden's dementia.
You guys have no credibility left.
POTUS Biden's dementia was a problem, but since he was of far more benevolent character, didn't pose a hazard of pressing the BIG RED BUTTON out of deranged spite. THERE is your YUUUUGE difference!
Pretendent Biden having "benevolent" character? Hahahahaha!
Have you considered a career in standup comedy? I bet you'd be a YUUUUUGE hit!
The Meeting of the Right Rightist Minds will now cum to Odor! Per Odor of Spermy Daniels!
Years ago by now, Our Dear Leader announced to us, that He may commit murder in broad daylight, and we shall still support Him! So He Has Cummanded, and So Must Shit be Done!
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016/jan/24/donald-trump-says-he-could-shoot-somebody-and-still-not-lose-voters
And now, oh ye Faithful of the Republican Church, Shit Has Become Known Unto us, that Shit is also in His Power and Privilege Ass Well, to murder the USA Constitution in broad daylight. Thus He Has Spoken, and Thus Must Shit Be Done! Thou shalt Render Unto Trump, and simply REND the USA Constitution, and wipe thine wise asses with shit! Do NOT render unto some moldering old scrap of bathroom tissue! Lest we be called fools, or worse!
https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/03/politics/trump-constitution-truth-social/index.html
Trump calls for the termination of the Constitution in Truth Social post
Proud Boys, STAND with TRUMP, and stand by! And if ye don’t agree 110%, then we don’t need you polluting our world, because all who disagree with us in ANY way are LEFTISTS!!!
There, I think that’s a wrap! I’ve covered shit ALL! You can take the rest of the day off now.
(You’re welcome!)
Is this really the hill you want to die on? Biden has plagiarized speeches, tried to destroy the reputation of a Supreme Court nominee (to the point that said nominee said he'd have preferred to face an assassin's bullet), has showered with his daughter, has defamed an innocent man as a drunk driver for political points, has bragged about withholding aid from Ukraine until they stopped investigating corruption, has laundered money from foreign sources, and had classified documents stacked up in his garage, has sexually assaulted an aide, and much more besides.
Look, we have the receipts. We're tired of the gaslighting from people like you. The last four years have demonstrated that you care not one whit about character.
Why do you suddenly expect me to care, when you've demonstrated by your own actions that character doesn't matter?
A lot missing here. Typical Jacob Sullum piece.
Not what he claimed. This is what he claimed.
More of what Trump did not say. He's not overriding Biden's pardons, he's saying Biden was not aware of the pardons; they were not his pardons, and only he could have pardoned them.
Again, repeating the false claim. This is not what Trump claims for why the pardons are invalid.
Here again, in Trump's own words, what Sullum refuses to admit.
What part of "Trump is lying" is so hard to understand? Trump made that all up.
What part of lying is so hard to prove that all you can do is repeat the bare assertion?
Lying is often extremely hard to prove as you have to prove things about the liars knowledge and state of mind.
Not to say that I think Calvinius is not full of shit.
You know what Champ? I think you're the one lying. Maybe next time you want to give us a little evidence or a coherent argument like SGT did, to back your nutty assertions.
Cite?
God damn you're retarded.
What Trump is claiming my be untrue, but let us assume a moment it is true. Would the pardon be valid if Biden was unaware his signature was affixed to them by somebody else and he wasc7nawarecof what those documents were? Can a document not actually reviewed and signed off on by the President be legally enforcable?
"It's not my decision," Trump replied. "That would be up to a court. But I would say that they're null and void, because I'm sure that Biden didn't have any idea that it was taking place."
"The necessary Pardoning Documents were not explained to, or approved by, Biden," Trump averred on Truth Social. "He knew nothing about them, and the people that did may have committed a crime."
Let's see. The first part is his opinion. I don't know why he'd lie about that. The second part may or may not be true, but I see no reason to believe Trump knows for certain what he is saying is false and says it anyway. And that's what a lie is. So he may be wrong, but to say he is lying assumes a lot.
Even if Joe was wheeled out tomorrow morning (when he’s his most lucid) and said on camera that he was fully aware of what he was doing, that doesn’t mean those people that were pardoned can’t be investigated, it just means they can’t be charged with anything.
An intrepid reporter or some agent with an actual conscience, who claimed to be against big government and government abuse/overreach, might do such an investigation and then write a tell all book.
So we're *back* to 'Biden is as sharp as a tack and totally could beat you in a pushup contest'?
Because I'm getting whiplash.
Stop making up strawmen and then believing both them AND the voices and vices in Your PervFected Mind, and You will get FAR less whiplash!
So you're telling us to stop reading Reason?
I'll have to take that suggestion seriously. I'm tired of the aching neck!
>Contrary to what Trump seems to think, presidents have no authority to override their predecessors' acts of clemency, and the use of an autopen does not render presidential pardons invalid.
None of that is what Trump is claiming.
Trump is claiming that Biden didn't authorize those pardons. Someone else committed fraud and used the autopen to do it.
The Lizard People committed fraud and used the autopen to do shit? Do You PervFectly BLEEVE Trump and BLEEVE In Him, Always?
He did not what believed. He said that was not what Trump was claiming.
"Trump is claiming that Biden didn't authorize those pardons. Someone else committed fraud and used the autopen to do it."
Anyone who believes the above claims from Trump (A CHAMPION well-known, well-documented LIAR) might ass well BLEEVE in the Lizard People!
With so much evidence of lizard people, why wouldn't you believe in them?
(Well, I know why you're trying to use this angle. You want us to believe that there are no lizard people. But it's clear: you're one of them! And you're still ticked off that President Trump has been such a thorn in the side of your people, starting with keeping Hillary out of power, continuing on with undoing everything Obama did, and now doing the same with Biden's staff.)
Stop making up strawmen and then believing both them AND the voices and vices in Your PervFected Mind, and You will get FAR less whiplash!
Just above you decry strawmen, but then you follow it up with an absurd strawman that involves "Lizard People"? There is a reason so many here have you on mute.
Strawmen that are clearly absurd is one thing. Strawmen that can easily be BLEEVED by stupid people is a TOTALLY different animal! And BLEEVE Ye me, there are PLENTY of udderly gullible, stupid BLEEVERS right here, who desperately cling to ALL of the PervFected LIES that they want to hear!
(Which lies temp YOU right now?)
OH..... Let me get this straight...
Executive Orders by [Na]tional So[zi]alist[s] can't be undone.
But all those Trump E.O.'s Biden cancelled were fine?????
Holy crap Reason; you've become nothing but a leftard rag.
Trump's wrong, unless they can prove that Biden didn't actually have anything to do with the pardons. Not that it matters.
Pardons don't mean that you are immune to being investigated. JS;Too Stupid.
No but it would be a bizarre waster of government resources to investigate someone with no possibility of a charge. And the pardon would mean that the object of the investigation would not have the expense of requiring lawyers. A simple "fuck off" would suffice in all cases.
You really are stupid. "Can't charge a few people, so better not dig down into that rabbit hole at all". "Can't cut $10 trillion, better not bother trying to cut waste and fraud."
That shit-bag has a raging case of TDS.
Oh fuck off. If you can't charge someone with a crime there is no point in investigating them for a crime.
Just because you can't charge them with a crime doesn't mean it isn't worthwhile to expose their crimes to the world.
It can even lead to meaningful reform to keep those crimes from being committed again.
Personally, I think Trump is right that Biden didn't have anything to do with the pardons. Proving it is a different manner.
Sullum is a hack. He quotes Schiff who still promises he has Russian material from 2018,2019, 2020, etc. A guy who lies constantly. A guy who says that he has nothing to hide but takes the pardon.
The real situation is this - Trump and his cultists here are pissed off that he was deprived of his chance to wage lawfare against the J6 committee and Biden's family. You all wanted it, but you can't have it.
Trump and his "cultists" were deprived of any ability to hold some of the bad actors accountable. That's ok, there's still a whole swamp to dry up. Probably plenty of kindling left to set their asses on fire.
Lawfare? The Biden administration was trying to hide crimes by issuing those pardons. We have evidence that Biden may not have authorized them, making those pardons null and void.
It doesn't take "cultists" to understand this. Do you truly believe in what you write? Call the cops on them if you do!
We have no evidence that Biden didn't authorise the pardons - only Dear Leader's say-so.
You and Vinnie are merely proving my point.
I'm not proving shit for you. Biden (maybe) thinks he can get away with pardoning people "just in case" for crimes they totally didn't commit, because Trump bad. Never mind that the American people have been stripped of any ability to seek justice? Fuck you, slaver.
If we can't prosecute them for their crimes, we can still find out the extent and punish those who weren't so fortuitously covered by Biden's BS blanket pardons.
I didn't say that I approved of all the Biden pardons. But Dear Leader made it very clear that he was going to go after the J6 committee members for doing their fucking job, and to forestall his lawfare, Biden took preventive measures, which is what you're pissed off about.
I find it hard to understand how an ex-0military man - I assume that your handle isn't a lie - can support a leader who has such contempt for people like you, and is a lilkely traitor, to boor. But I: guess you never unlearned to obey orders, you voluntary slave.
Their "job" wasn't to put President Trump and the J6ers in as bad as light as possible, destroying all exculpatory evidence they had along the way.
Their job was to get to the truth.
And they violated many protocols to do the former and not the latter.
And they violated many protocols to do the former and not the latter.
Bullshit. But to the cultists, the "truth" is that it was a peaceful procession of tourists, not the riot that we could all see with our own eyes. Any actual truth from J6 would be regarded by you cultists as some kind of heresy.
And gaslighters like yourself will insist that guys like Ray Epps -- who, despite plenty of video evidence of him insisting everyone should go into the Capitol, the FBI had no interest in, until they were practically forced to give him a year of probation to keep face -- but still had no interest in other people who were telling everyone to go into the Capitol building (not so much as a wanted poster!) -- weren't there to entrap as many Trump supporters as they could get.
Nope, it's a conspiracy theory that the FBI had anything to do with it! That's why they had no interest in who planted the pipe bombs, and tossed the gallows without any ceremony or investigation of who made them, and are to this day coy about how many agents they had on the ground that day.
RAY EPPS! ZOMG!
You are trying to dismiss me as a "conspiracy theorist" in an era when "conspiracy theorists" have been proven right over and over again.
I suppose you're going to tell me that all those videos of Ray Epps I've seen, where he was encouraging people to go into the Capitol the night before and the day of (and in many cases being called "Fed!" for his efforts), and the video of his whispering into someone's ear just a moment before barricades were pulled up and hidden from the crowd, are all my imagination, or "deep fakes" or something.
And Ray Epps isn't even the only bit of evidence of a criminal conspiracy of the FBI to entrap as many Trump supporters as possible. He's just one of the more visible bits of evidence.
And you're clearly one of those lizard people who are trying to gaslight me and prevent me from believing my own lying eyes.
What orders am I obeying? Fucking moron.
"They were just doing their job!"
The Left thanks you for your unquestioning reliance on their talking points. How many times did you call the COVID hotlines to rat out your neighbors for not wearing masks? Again, fuck off, slaver.
You poor sad individual. Oh, and stupid as well.
Is that your morning mantra?
So clever.
At this point, we have very strong reasons to believe that the former Dear Leader didn't have the mental capacity to give the say-so for those pardons.
So, perhaps that puts us at an empasse. The pardons are clearly invalid, but there's no clear way to invalidate them.
At this point, we have very strong reasons to believe that the former Dear Leader didn't have the mental capacity to give the say-so for those pardons.
We don't.
The pardons are clearly invalid
You need evidence to be clear.
All you have is Dear Leader's assertions. But being a cultist, that's good enough for you.
All I have is the Dear Leader's assertions?
What about the Presidential Debate that ended with Pretendent Biden stepping down and Kamala taking the reins (and which happened to be pretty much the only non-autopenned signature of his entire Presidency)?
What about all those videos that the Media were trying to dismiss as "cheap fakes" -- and all those confessions that the Media are now publishing, saying they were "duped" about his mental state all along?
And what about the investigation into Pretendent Biden's violations of handling classified material -- that ended with "well, he did it, but if we tried to prosecute him, the Jury would just see a doddering old fool who barely knows where he is, and feel sorry for him"?
Yet, somehow, amazingly enough, the people who see these bits and pieces of reality are the "cultists", while all those who were trying to cover up the truth are "grounded in reality".
"The real situation is this - Trump and his cultists..."
From a Trump cultist.
Fuck off and die, asshole.
Be careful what you clowns cheer, because it won't be long before Democrats start doing the things they're howling about right now with the excuse "Trump did it first, so that makes it ok."
If there's evidence that an EO or a Pardon exists without President Trump's explicit approval, I'm in favor of overturning it -- even if it is for me, personally.
If this ends up with a requirement that every Presidential signature be made in front of two notary witnesses, I fail to see why that would be a bad thing -- at the very least, it will prevent another cabal from taking advantage of a dementia-addled figurehead.
"before Democrats start"? Ha!
As-if "Democrats" didn't already do..............
This is way worse than I thought.
All the Dem Useful Idiots are out in force cawing "autopen" even though they just learned yesterday that it was even a thing.
My new tack with my representatives is no longer "who was in charge?" It is now "I demand an investigation."
Sullum is a slimy, lying, pile of TDS-addled shit who should fuck off and die, ain't he?
Listen to me very carefully - Joe Biden is a SENILE man.
Trump did not invalidate autopens. He's saying someone other than Biden used his autopen to sign executive orders and legislation without his knowledge. Which is logical assumption when an able bodied but senile man uses auto pen 99% of the time and cannot recall things that he supposed signed. Yes, Trump should have better phrased his Truth Social post, but what he meant is perfectly clear.
Biden couldn't remember signing some export legislation in a conversation with Mike Johnson. Richard Hur found out that he couldn't remember much of anything. Supposedly Biden pardoned a bunch of craven murderers off a list handed to him by handlers and they found out too late that one of them was a cop killer.
Show me another modern president who used autopen for nearly everything he signed. Tell me that this is normal. Sell me on the notion that a mentally deficient president using his autopen to pardon his own son and allies for potential crimes is just another case of "unethical but within executive power." Convince me that Joe Biden WAS the acting president for the past 4 years.
What can I say? It's TDS. It renders usually smart, astute people as bafflingly obtuse. Sullum is engaging in the same gaslighting and self deception as moron journalists who are asking "well gee what about when Trump used autopen". The issue ISN'T the autopen. Sigh.
It could not matter less whether Trump's "revenge fantasy" is correct or not. The question here is whether a President can prospectively pardon persons for crimes that they have not yet been charged with. In a nation of laws, the correct sequence would be: present evidence that a crime has been committed; charge the suspect with that crime; hold a jury trial and get a verdict from the jury; pass judgement and assess a punishment; then - and only then - consider a pardon. Anything else would be highly questionable both legally and logically, not to mention the appearance of corruption it presents to the people. The correct response to prospective Presidential pardons would be to identify an actual crime those people are suspected of having committed, charge them with the crime, consider any appeals they might make that they had been pardoned by the President, reject those claims, and then proceed to trial, verdict and punishment if and when.
I don't see why pardon power shouldn't include future charges -- after all, as much as I am convinced that the Jan 6 Committee were committing crimes in their witch hunt, I can also see a vengeful future President wanting to go after a sincere investigative committee with trumped-up charges -- and a current President figuring it prudent to pardon future charges to avoid that outcome.
This is why, however, the questions of legitimacy of the pardons are important -- even if the pardon in question is for a crime that has already been proven in a court of law.
Sullum is such a hack. Ok, anyone using an the autopen can pardon thousands of people for any crime they committed in life right?
The argument by Trump - Biden did not pardon them. He was not mental fit to pardon them.
How can you pardon for something that isn't a crime? What about a 10 year period?
https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artII-S2-C1-3-1/ALDE_00013316/
For instance, the Court has indicated that the power may be exercised at any time after [an offense’s] commission,8 reflecting that the President may not preemptively immunize future criminal conduct.
Everyone with more than half a brain knows that the "Jan 6 Committe" was a hollywood staged show trial - but, I guess Sullum is okay with that whole sad ordeal not being exposed for the shit show it was, regardless of whether or not anyone involved can be persecuted.
It will be interesting to see if an auto-pen pardon is valid in court when it is debatable if Biden was capable to sign or if he was even present or aware of the pardon. I fully expect that the partisans will align with their camps, but to me as a independent the very notion of using a auto-pen for a pardon, bill, or executive order should not be legal. You could use an auto-pen for anything else that is non-binding.
1) The DOJ declined to prosecute Biden for his possession of classified documents based on Biden's diminished capacity.
2) We all saw the debate. Biden barely knew what planet he's on.
3) Anything signed by a mentally incompetent person is not legally valid.