4 States Consider Bills To Treat Women Who Get Abortions as Murderers
These bills—in Indiana, North Dakota, Oklahoma, and South Carolina—could also imperil IVF practices and threaten care for women with pregnancy complications.

Since the fall of Roe v. Wade, bills aiming to criminalize abortion providers have proliferated. But it's relatively rare to see lawmakers propose criminalizing women who obtain abortions—well, it was rare, at least. In January, lawmakers in at least four states introduced proposals to make intentionally harming a fertilized egg or fetus punishable under homicide statutes, with no exceptions for women who get abortions unless they were forced or coerced into ending their pregnancies.
These measures would leave pregnant women who seek abortions subject to criminal charges such as murder, manslaughter, attempted murder, and attempted manslaughter and open to wrongful death lawsuits brought by partners or family members.
They could also seriously imperil care for women experiencing pregnancy complications and have major implications for in vitro fertilization practices.
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Indiana: House Bill 1334 was introduced by state Rep. Lorissa Sweet (R–Indianapolis) on January 13. It has attracted two co-sponsors so far and has been referred to the Committee on Courts and Criminal Code.
Sweet's bill would modify Indiana's criminal code so that the phrase "human being" includes beings in utero and fertilized eggs. Human being "includes an unborn child at any stage of development from fertilization at the fusion of a human spermatozoon with a human ovum," H.B. 1334 states.
The measure would repeal the crime of feticide—the killing of a fetus—since the killing of a fetus by any means, including abortion, would count as murder or manslaughter. It would also make injuring an embryo or fetus actionable under wrongful death lawsuits, as well.
Sweet's bill would further repeal a section of the Indiana criminal code saying "it is a defense to any crime involving the death of or injury to a fetus that the defendant was a pregnant woman who committed the unlawful act with the intent to terminate her pregnancy." Thus, a pregnant woman who tried to terminate her pregnancy could be criminally punished.
North Dakota: A dozen lawmakers have signed on to House Bill 1373, which was also introduced on January 13. Its lead author is state Rep. Lori VanWinkle, (R–Minot).
H.B. 1373 would amend certain sections of North Dakota code to say that the terms human being and person include an "unborn child" from "the moment of fertilization." These changes would apply "as the terms relate to the offenses of murder and assault, and civil actions for death caused by wrongful acts."
Oklahoma: We've got Senate Bill 456, introduced on January 8 by state Sen. Dusty Deevers (R–Elgin) and co-authored in the Oklahoma House by Rep. Gabe Woolley (R–Broken Arrow). The bill, called the "Abolition of Abortion Act," amends the state's homicide statute.
Oklahoma's homicide statute already says that "''human being' includes an unborn child" from the moment of conception, but it excludes from the definition of homicide acts "committed during a legal abortion to which the pregnant woman consented" and stipulates that "under no circumstances shall the mother of the unborn child be prosecuted for causing the death of the unborn child unless the mother has committed a crime that caused the death."
S.B. 456 would repeal the abortion exclusion and the bit excluding pregnant women.
Elsewhere, Deevers' bill would add language specifying that "even where the charge is murder, the provisions of this section shall apply if the victim is an unborn child and the defendant is the child's mother."
South Carolina: House Bill 3537—dubbed the "Prenatal Equal Protection Act"—was introduced on January 14 and referred to the Committee on Judiciary. It was introduced by state Rep. Rob Harris (R–Spartanburg), and the bill currently has six co-sponsors.
Harris' bill would amend the state's homicide and assault statutes to state that "'person' includes an unborn child at every stage of development from fertilization until birth."
What these bills would mean: All of these measures would leave women who terminate or attempt to terminate their pregnancies criminally liable for harm to the unborn child.
They also go beyond that. In defining human beings to include all embryos, from the moment of conception, they would have implications for in vitro fertilization, which often involves the creation of embryos that are frozen for later use and sometimes, eventually, destroyed.
They could incentivize law enforcement to investigate women who naturally miscarry or pregnant women who act in ways that could be dubbed dangerous to their fetuses.
And while they all include language theoretically meant to limit their applicability to situations involving spontaneous miscarriage or instances where a mother's life is at risk, we've seen already in some states how this can play out in practice. When faced with situations where a woman's health is threatened but perhaps not yet critically, medical professionals may be afraid to act, lest they harm her fetus and be found guilty of violating an abortion ban.
Hospitals and doctors on the hook for homicide if they make the wrong decisions may be unlikely to err on the side that could leave them liable—which means women may be forced to continue doomed or life-threatening pregnancies.
Language in these bills ostensibly designed to clear up confusion on this front could actually make things more confusing for medical professionals and more dangerous for pregnant women. For instance, the North Dakota bill specifies that its new rules don't apply to "the unintentional death of an unborn child resulting from…a procedure undertaken to save the life of a mother when accompanied by reasonable steps to save the life of the unborn child" (emphasis mine). The other three statutes contain similar language.
This implies that doctors who act to save a pregnant woman's life while endangering her fetus could still be liable for homicide or wrongful death if later deemed to have not taken enough "reasonable steps" to protect the fetus. Under this paradigm, doctors and hospitals may fear that intervening "too early" in a miscarriage will leave them liable, even when intervening too late can leave a mother vulnerable to sepsis and death.
Only the South Carolina statute explicitly states that "mistake or unintentional error on the part of a licensed physician or other licensed healthcare provider or his or her employee or agent or any person acting on behalf of the patient shall not subject the licensed physician or other licensed healthcare provider or person acting on behalf of the patient to any criminal liability."
More Sex & Tech News
Dusty Deevers is at it again: The Oklahoma state senator has introduced a bill that would criminalize pornography production or possession, making it punishable by up to 10 years in prison. Deevers did this last year too, with a bill broad enough to ban sending sexy selfies to someone who's not your spouse.
Deevers' new legislation would set "criminal penalties of up to 10 years in prison for production, distribution, or possession" of porn, per Deevers' press release. "It also provides heightened 10-to-30-year criminal penalties for organized pornography trafficking."
More states try to regulate algorithms: In Virginia, House Bill 1624 "breaks down the activities performed by social media algorithms and provides a list of features for which minors must have verifiable parental consent," explains Max Gulker of the Reason Foundation (the nonprofit that publishes this site) in a post laying out potential negative consequences of this approach.
Meanwhile, in Missouri, Attorney General Andrew Bailey has put forth a bonkers proposal, in which social media platforms are required to let users "choose among competing content moderators." Tech companies themselves would be forbidden from moderating, censoring, or suppressing "content on the social media platform such that a user is unable to view that content if their chosen content moderator would otherwise permit viewing that content."
Aside from massive technological feasibility concerns here, this would also introduce even more massive liability concerns. Platforms like X, Facebook, Truth Social, etc., would presumably still be legally liable for certain types of content on their platforms and yet not be allowed to have any control over it. They would also be totally denied the opportunity to differentiate themselves based on things like platform moderation styles and rules.
Bailey is calling this half-baked idea a "Regulation Securing Algorithmic Freedom for Social Media Users." He's currently "taking public comments" and collecting "additional evidence about the deceptive practices of the social media companies," according to his office.
Professor gets $1 million "to understand illicit decision making" in massage businesses: A reader of this newsletter recently alerted me to an article from Wake Forest University about the work one business school professor is doing "to detect and disrupt human trafficking"—and the ample government funding she's gotten to do so. It's a perfect example of the misguided way U.S. authorities approach exploitation and abuse in the sex trade.
It seems the National Science Foundation has given $1 million to Stacie Petter, a professor at Wake Forest's School of Business, so that Petter and partners can spend three years "investigating the massage therapy industry" by "gathering information from dozens of people who approach the issue wearing different lenses."
"I can't go interview people about their illicit business activities. I can't ask someone why they made the choice to pay someone under the table or why they are allowing their massage therapists to engage in commercial sex for tips," said Petters. "We have to go about getting insights in a different way by making assumptions and running experiments. So, we're using agent-based modeling, or a form of simulation."
Alas, government grants intended to fight human trafficking tend to go to either prostitution stings or academic researchers doing endless theory work, like this. But what victims of sexual exploitation need is not "rescue" (aka handcuffs and jail) by cops or theoretical modeling of their abusers' decisions by a bunch of business school professors. They need help acquiring the things needed to live outside of the exploitative paradigm—things like housing, transportation, and decent jobs. Instead of spending millions of dollars on nonsense academic studies, we should be spending it on material resources for people who need help leaving abusive pimps, partners, etc.
About time: The White House is opening up the press briefing room to online content creators of all sorts. "We encourage anybody in this country: whether you are a TikTok content creator, a blogger, a podcaster—if you are producing legitimate news content, no matter the medium, you will be allowed to apply for press credentials to this White House," said White House press secretary Karoline Leavitt on Tuesday.
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4 States Consider Bills To Treat Women Who Get Abortions as Murderers
Probably because they are murderers?
which means women may be forced to continue doomed or life-threatening pregnancies.
This has happened exactly zero times and absolutely nobody has advocated for this despite what Salon says. People who push this narrative are lying solely in order to be able to kill people.
Aboto-Freak said something.
What a brilliant riposte, but remind me again, are the aborto-freaks the ones who want to kill late-term babies and newborns, or the ones who are against that?
ooh I know! I know! the ones who are for.
The SCOTUS stated the abortion issue is a state issue, not a federal one.
Ergo, states will determine if abortion is legal or not.
The termination of human life, like the death penalty, is indeed a state issue, not a federal one.
...because Alito has "moral standards" that over-rule the US Constitution.
It is a personal medical issue, not an issue for the government to weigh in on at all. Until viability, the government has no justified involvement at all, never mind criminalizing IVF and manufacturing a false definition of what a human being is.
If it has no ability to sustain life on its own upon exiting the womb, it isn’t a human being. It’s a potential human being. It isn’t a person. It’s a potential person. Until the minimum standard for maintaining life is achieved, it’s almost all potential and almost no actuality.
As of today, the earliest a fetus has achieved the minimum standard for life is 21 weeks. Anything earlier is indefensible.
So, they are all just clumps of cells until they get jobs and earn enough to move out of mom's basement and get off the dole. Until then they are potential people, but not viable.
What-ever it is; it is not alive unless it is alive individually.
A seed is not an apple tree.
This isn't rocket-science it's basic simple common-sense until the Pro-Life propagandists came along and indoctrinated everyone with unicorns and fairy-tale dust imaginations.
You can 'save' the clump of cells all you want.
You just can't enslave a Women to 'save' (more like reproduce) them for you.
“ So, they are all just clumps of cells until they get jobs and earn enough to move out of mom's basement and get off the dole.”
Of all the specious and idiotic arguments that anti-abortionists use, this is probably the dumbest and most ridiculous. No one has ever even insinuated that independent means anything other than separate from the womb. This bizarre and constant attempt to gaslight everyone about what independent means in this context is about as transparently ridiculous as it gets. But anti-abortionists are clowns, so I guess it doesn’t bother you.
“ Until then they are potential people, but not viable.”
A fetus is a potential person until it is capable of sustaining its own life outside the womb. As of now, the earliest point that has ever happened is 21 weeks. Unless you think a lack of lungs doesn’t matter to viability?
I think, therefor I am. Viability has nothing to do with it.
Are you claiming that a fertilized egg can think? An embryo? A fetus at 20 weeks or less?
And even if so, when else are people required to put themselves at physical risk to benefit another human being? If it is fair to make a woman take a ~1 in 5000 chance of dying to give birth to a live baby, I'm sure you're fine with requiring all kinds of things for other people to have to do against their will in order to maintain that life, once born.
Just because you am doesn't entitle you to other people's body organs.
Viability has everything to do with it. If there is a lack of something vital to existence now, but that thing may develop in the future, it is potential instead of actuality.
Pre-viability, a fetus isn’t actually a person or a human being, it’s only potentially a person or human being. No mangling of the English language can change that.
Who knows what you intended to say 🙂
Viability comes from the word for 'life' so you just advertized your illogicalityi, your misuse of words, and your disregard for making a point. 🙂
Hear hear. Viability is literally capability of living. But somehow the idea is irrelevant to those who have no clue what they babble on about
But that is second-level at best. Can government take any stand and not help the woman who is being coerced into abortion, who wants that baby and needs help
Why abortion is the Uninformed Non-Choice:
54% were unsure of their decision, yet 67% received no counseling beforehand.
84% were inadequately counseled beforehand.
79% not told or deceived about available resources.
Many were misinformed by experts about fetal development, abortion alternatives or risks.
Many were denied essential personal, family, societal or economic support.
“ Can government take any stand and not help the woman who is being coerced into abortion, who wants that baby and needs help”
What does this bizarre hypothetical have to do with abortion legislation? Coercion and force in service to anything is another realm of law completely. The fact that it’s abortion that is being forced makes no difference.
"54% were unsure of their decision, yet 67% received no counseling beforehand.”
So what? Are we now going to say every decision made by people will require counseling unless the person is 100% sure of their decision? That’s idiotic. People make decisions all the time that they aren’t sure of. That isn’t a justification for forced counseling.
“ 84% were inadequately counseled beforehand.”
Define “inadequately”. It seems you think making a decision you disapprove of indicates inadequacy. You probably think pregnancy crisis centers distribute the only accurate and true counseling, despite their constant exposure as factories of lies and known falsehoods about abortion.
“ 79% not told or deceived about available resources”
What available resources? Adoption? You think pregnant women are ignorant of that option? Why should anyone have the not-abortion options shoved down their throats like they are somehow ignorant of the stakes? People make decisions with incomplete information all the time. That doesn’t justify forcing propaganda down their throats.
There is nothing wrong with abortion. Choosing to have an abortion is their choice and assuming they don’t understand the situation is nonsense. It’s a huge decision that most women take extremely seriously and information is readily available to anyone who wishes to consider it. The fact that they don’t share your beliefs doesn’t justify forcing them to listen to things they have already considered and rejected.
“ Many were misinformed by experts about fetal development, abortion alternatives or risks.”
Nonsense. That information is readily available as well as being part of any medical consultation. What you actually mean is that the false beliefs about fetal development (like the completely false claims about pain or the significance of a tube that will, after another month, eventually become a heart that beats) that anti-abortionists have been pumping out for decades aren’t put forward as true. Alternatives are also widely known. And risks are always part of the discussion, but things like a pretending infertility is anything other than a remote possibility aren’t presented as more than they are. That’s what offends you, that the presentation of risk is done scientifically, not hysterically like anti-abortionists want.
“ Many were denied essential personal, family, societal or economic support.”
Many, you say? Denied, you say? How many and who “denied” them support? How could anyone at a clinic “deny” anyone anything, since they had absolutely no idea the person was going to walk into their clinic until they did? Are they hunting down pregnant women in case they may, possibly, seek an abortion and making sure they don’t talk to anyone about their pregnancy or options before they go to the clinic? Exactly how psychic are these clinic people? Can they tell me the winning lottery numbers next week?
Where exactly are you getting your information? Crisis pregnancy center literature, Focus on the Family, or some other completely false and biased source? Because no one can make such a broad generalization without some sort of data. And that data just doesn’t exist.
Aaah, the long answer of the scared coward.
Right away you fell off the track , it is not a bizarre hypothetical !!!
Forcing a woman to have an abortion, including a minor, is illegal in all 50 states of the United States of America.
Center Against Forced Abortions (CAFA)
https://thejusticefoundation.org › cafa
67% of women described their abortions as “accepted but inconsistent with their values and preferences” (43%) or “unwanted or coerced” (24%).
Only 33% identified their abortions as wanted.
60% would have preferred to give birth if they had received either more emotional support or had more financial security.
“ Aaah, the long answer of the scared coward”
Unsurprisingly, a person with your irrational belief system fears a detailed answer.
For the rest, I’ll respond in detail but the source for your data is an anti-abortion legal organization who describes itself as a ministry, so the chance of them sharing accurate data is nonexistent. If you want to use valid statistics, find a source that doesn’t have a dog in the fight. Otherwise you’re just getting played.
“ 67% of women described their abortions as “accepted but inconsistent with their values and preferences””
And? So you’re saying they chose to have an abortion even though they say they don’t believe in them. Since they ultimately made that choice, obviously something else was more important than their philosophical opposition to abortion.
This is pretty typical when anti-choice women find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. The male version of this is when anti-abortion politicians and religious figures have their mistresses get an abortion.
None of that, however, is being forced to do anything. They had a choice, they just made a choice you disapprove of. It’s just the typical hypocrisy of the self-righteous when it’s no longer someone else whose future is endangered.
“ unwanted or coerced” (24%).”
Forcing someone to have an abortion is criminal and should be prosecuted. But it wasn’t forced or coerced by law, it was forced or coerced by someone they know. So that doesn’t make legal abortion coercive, either.
“ Only 33% identified their abortions as wanted.”
I’d be shocked if it was truly that high. Virtually no one wants an abortion. There are many reasons to get an abortion, but “I want to” isn’t one of them.
But again, your stats are from a religious-based anti-abortion legal group. Mischaracterizing the data is the least they probably did with it. I’d bet some straight-up fabrication is involved, or they are surveying 3 people that they have worked with (which is why it’s 33% and 66%).
“ 60% would have preferred to give birth if they had received either more emotional support or had more financial security.”
Duh. Not being able to afford a child is probably the #1 reason people get abortions and #2 is probably “my boyfriend broke up with me when he found out I was pregnant”. However, it isn’t anyone else’s responsibility to provide financial or emotional support to strangers. If they can’t get it from their families, are you saying they should get it from mine? Absolutely fucking not.
This still is not evidence that legal abortion is coercive in any way. You’ve just said, “people get abortions because they have to, not because they want to” and “if they had more money and support from their loved ones, they might choose differently”.
Gee, thanks Captain Obvious. It’s a hard decision that no one wants to have to make. No shit, Sherlock.
Why stop at abortion...
Isn't every Woman who refuses to have sex and reproduce killing children?
UR F'En retarded.
Speaking of retarded, if only people knew what causes pregnancy. And had some idea of the relation of actions to consequences. But very libertarian to separate the two.
Don't be harsh,
1. Like millions of innocent women, TJJ2000 baby-killer-pro doesn't know that a creampie in the cooch causes babies, I mean who would believe that?
2. Condoms, diaphragms, sponges, spermicide, cervical caps and the pill don't exist,
3. Blowjobs, mutual masturbation, anal and tit fuck's aren't things either.
No, the only option to horniness is rawdogging directly in the cunt and killing the inevitable offspring because there's no "choice".
Oh, and you don't become human until the birth-canal fairy magically turns you into one because sCiEnCE.
Like millions of other Pro-Life/Religious whack-job dictators; you believe your unicorn theories and contraception gives you an excuse to make Gov-Gun demands on others PERSONAL lives/bodies.
Hey man ... if you didn't want to get lung cancer why did you smoke?
Maybe you better ban cancer treatment for smokers too. /s
*Everyone* excepting maybe the most extreme Max Sterner devotees thinks their unicorn theories give them an excuse to make demands on others.
'Consequences' Pro-Life has made with Gov-'Guns' against the people.
Don't pretend this is some natural consequence going on. If it was a natural consequence it wouldn't need Gov-Guns now would it.
Stupid #2.
“ Speaking of retarded, if only people knew what causes pregnancy.”
So the only justified purpose of having sex is reproduction? That’s insane. The vast majority of sex is had for pleasure and connection between two people. And that’s more than OK, it’s a good thing.
“ And had some idea of the relation of actions to consequences”
Since the vast majority of unwanted pregnancies happen despite efforts to prevent it, people are very aware of actions and consequences. We just live in an imperfect world and things don’t always work out as planned. With sex, if that occurs it results in pregnancy. There is a solution for that, one that is perfectly OK and highly effective. It’s to have an abortion.
And whether you approve of the reasons that someone chooses an abortion is as irrelevant as whether someone else approves of the reason you choose a religion or a job or a spouse. Your disapproval has no value and no relevance to anyone else’s life but yours.
“ But very libertarian to separate the two.”
You think that it’s libertarian to use the government to force individual moral codes on complete strangers? You clearly don’t understand what liberty (or libertarian) means.
67% of women described their abortions as “accepted but inconsistent with their values and preferences” (43%) or “unwanted or coerced” (24%).
Only 33% identified their abortions as wanted.
60% would have preferred to give birth if they had received either more emotional support or had more financial security.
You said that above and I responded in detail. The short version is: boo fucking hoo. They made a choice that was the lesser of two evils (in their minds). That happens every day to almost everyone.
Also, as noted above, your stats come from a religious anti-abortion legal group. If you think their characterizations of the responses or the data they shared is impartial and accurate, you are a fool.
Maybe IVF clinics could consider using procedures that are ethical and do not treat human embryos as commodities?
What exactly do you think goes on in IVF? You are probably just horribly misinformed. What concerns do you have?
The overproduction of embryos and what to do with the "spares" has been an issue for decades.
It's only an issue for those who try legislating their fantasy-land imaginations.
The idea that humans are right bearing creatures with individual moral worth is a fantasy? Is that really a principle you want established?
The guy obviously pressured a girl into an abortion and doesn't want to face up to the vile thing he did.
Wrong. I don't need a selfish motivation to realize [WE] Gov-Gun mobs dictating others personal/body reproduction systems is not a place for Gov-Guns to be. As-if the 4A & 13A didn't clear that up.
Religious tyrants is all Pro-Life is made of.
Save your unicorn all you want.
You just can't enslave a Woman's body doing it.
Problem is.. You don't even have an Individual on your hands to speak of anywhere but your own BS indoctrinated imagination.
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (Individualism).
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
It’s only an issue among those who have created a fantasy ideology around fertilized eggs. Among logical and reasonable people, disposing of unused fertilized eggs isn’t an issue at all.
Where does the ability to write off certain classes of human individuals as being worthy of moral consideration get you to? You are imagining a human individual has no moral value when it is convenient for you. A lot like a Confederate Plantation owner.
I do remember a couple of years ago, when that clinic was sued by couple whose embryos they had mishandled. The pearl clutching about the clinic having to take responsibility for not destroying its clients embryos through carelessness was epic.
“ Where does the ability to write off certain classes of human individuals as being worthy of moral consideration get you to?”
They aren’t human individuals. They aren’t even fetuses, which also aren’t human individuals.
Moral considerations come from moral codes. There is no one, true moral code. What someone considers moral is a function of logic and is highly individual. Your moral code isn’t right for everyone. Give how extreme you are, it probably isn’t right for most people.
Pretending your morality is the only morality and requiring everyone else to defend their beliefs based on it is farcical.
“ worthy of moral consideration get you to? You are imagining a human individual has no moral value when it is convenient for you.”
Or at all. I just disagree with you about the line that separates something moral from something immoral. Regarding abortion, from my moral perspective, that is the earliest point of viability. If one fetus has been delivered and survived, no matter how damaged or disabled they might be, that changes the moral equation.
And FWIW, using the phrase “moral value” in regards to a person is bizarre. People aren’t more or less valuable from a morality perspective.
“ I do remember a couple of years ago, when that clinic was sued by couple whose embryos they had mishandled.”
And? Are you claiming that an IVF clinic is somehow different than a car manufacturer or a construction company when it comes to negligence or incompetence? That was a bizarre non- sequitur.
You're a fertilized egg and a clump of cells, you fucking ascientific moron. No really.
fertilized eggs and *just* a clump of cells don't sustain a life.
That's is precisely where Pro-Life is blatantly stupid and full of BS.
No, I WAS a fertilized egg and a clump of cells (which is redundant because a fertilized egg is literally a clump of cells. Scientists even have different names for it depending on how many cells are in the clump). Then the fertilized egg continues to develop and, at roughly 24 weeks, I became a viable human being. And after I was born I was a baby. Then a toddler, then … well, you get the point.
Scientifically a fertilized egg and an adult human aren’t the same thing, you ascientific moron.
As someone who has been through a lot of IVF, allow me to elucidate on how this. I'll try to put this in the simplest way I can.
Most embryos are not viable and do not turn into children. The process of harvesting a woman's eggs is likewise, not without risks or damage to her body and overall reproductive ability. It involves stabbing a hole in her ovaries and sucking out the mature eggs as they are ready to be ovulated. People unfamiliar with the process often ask "why can't they just take one?"
Under normal conditions, a woman's body stimulates multiple egg follicles per cycle. The eggs grow until one of them matures to a point where it begins producing a hormone that kills off the others. All the follicles stimulated in each period are wasted, except one. What IVF stimulation drugs do is suppress the hormone that kills off the other follicles, allowing all that would be grown in a given period to mature to full capacity. This necessarily allows even subprime follicles to mature and produce eggs. Remember, our bodies are built to be cavemen who get pregnant at ~13 and make 1.25 children a year every year until we die at like... 35. This biological system is not concerned with "wasting" eggs so much as wasting valuable uterus space and baby-making time.
Keep in mind also, that women who seek out IVF are usually already having trouble conceiving. Their eggs may be low quality and many are already in advanced maternal age (because they've been trying fruitlessly for so long). Taking one egg at a time is preposterous.
But why must they be fertilized? Even after fertilization, most embryos die in utero for natural reasons. Even in young healthy women the chance of conception in any given period, even those having sex daily, is about 30%. This lines up rather accurately with what we see from IVF fertilization survival rates. Most embryos have the wrong number of chromosomes and cannot survive. Sometimes, sperm just fail to penetrate the egg for whatever reason. Sometimes, the body just says "nah brah, not this month" and aborts the embryo for no apparent reason. Abortion is a natural component of human conception. Statistically, every woman on Earth has unwittingly killed at least four babies for every one she's carried to term. So, with that in mind, for practical reasons, most IVF labs will grow fertilized embryos for at least six days before freezing them. The attrition rate is real, and anyone who has been through IVF can tell you how it feels to get told you harvested X eggs, then hear a day later that X-Y fertilized successfully, then hear six days later than Y-Z made it to day 6 and you're just hoping and praying that you have at least one.
So yes, on occasion, there are extra embryos. When that happens, it's unfortunate, but that's the moral cost of doing business. You (quite literally) cannot make an omelette without breaking a few eggs. No one goes into this uninformed about what might happen. If it bothers you, maybe IVF isn't for you. But who are you to decide it's not for someone else? Some women do choose to implant all their embryos come hell or high water. That's a choice they can make. Many couples choose to donate their extra embryos.
I hope this has been enlightening and maybe you can use more empathy in your judgements in the future.
I have a brother-in-law who was forced to watch porn and then masturbate at the clinic and he is a mess years later
At the clinic he voluntarily went to and could have left at any time? Your story seems pretty farfetched, especially since it’s highly likely he watches porn and masturbates at home.
Nelson, have you furthered in any way an abortion. you act exactly like such guilty folks I've know. You do that detached intellectual thing to clownish extent and that is the first sign
I have not, except for driving a friend to and from a clinic once thirty years ago. And getting her a nice lunch to help the pills go down easier.
I don’t feel guilty because there is nothing to feel guilty about.
And I do the “detached intellectual thing” because that’s how the best decisions are made, by using your brain to examine the world and deciding from the available evidence what is true.
Faith-based emotional self-righteousness is a terrible way to make decisions. It makes you look like a buffoon. Like you do here.
Maybe IVF clinics could consider using procedures that are ethical and do not treat human embryos as commodities?
Honestly, they need to start kicking anti-feminist socialists like ENB in the cunt for such a bad faith interpretation of what they do.
Like if a firefighter ran into a condemned orphanage and pulled out one single baby or a couple of them before the building collapsed killing all the other orphans and ENB, witnessing the whole thing saying, "See! If you ban the killing of orphans, firefighters won't be able to save them!"
No, it’s more like “people who think fertilized eggs are human beings are delusional and shouldn’t have a say in anyone else’s reproductive decisions.”
Until viability, your irrational belief should only apply to you. No one else.
"Until viability"
Hey ghoul, that date is getting pushed forward earlier and earlier all the time, so why so fucking abitrary?
"Viability" is messy topic. The reality is that survival rates outside the womb are a flat 0% before right about 26 weeks and there is no medical evidence that this barrier is (or will, or should) go anywhere. From there, they slowly begin to climb from "probably not gonna make it" until starting to plateau at "probably gonna make it" around 34 weeks.
"Viability" isn't a line, it's a range of probability.
To be fair, the chance is zero until 21 weeks. After that it’s statistically indistinguishable from zero, but it’s technically a non-zero chance.
Hey ghoul, that date is getting pushed forward earlier and earlier all the time, so why so fucking abitrary?
Also, I could see how a Canadian might get touchy about that date creeping forward on the backend as well.
You're non-viable! You're non-viable! And... you're non-viable!
Maybe someone should just lobby for Fetal Ejection.
And all the "beliefs" can then enter the world of reality.
why?
"date is getting pushed forward earlier and earlier all the time"
Because allowing the re-location of pregnancies is exactly what Pro-Life is against. Their entire religious premise relies on the 'life' standard being religiously (belief) founded.
Pro-Life could've so easily just made any 'act' of intentional destruction of a pregnancy illegal and made all abortions just re-locations (FREE the ?baby? from the Woman).
The date shifts EXACTLY because Pro-Life lives in imagination not reality.
“ Hey ghoul, that date is getting pushed forward earlier and earlier all the time, so why so fucking abitrary?”
It’s the exact opposite of arbitrary. It is a clear line separating a fetus the is capable of sustaining itself and one that isn’t, based upon structural realities like the existence of major organs.
It isn’t “getting pushed forward” it’s essentially at the same point it was when records began to be kept. The earliest a fetus has been delivered and survived is 21 weeks, and that happened in the 70s. It’s always been between 20 and 21 weeks. That’s due to the fact that the lungs are one of the last major organs to develop and nothing you say or claim can change the fact that you can’t live without lungs. We’re pretty much at the earliest point of possible viability and have been for about 50 years.
Sorry, that’s supposed to say between 21 and 22 weeks.
There are thousands of ob-gyns that say you are human from fertililzation
AAPLOG
WE ARE THE AMERICAN ASSOCIATION OF
PRO-LIFE OBSTETRICIANS AND GYNECOLOGISTS
BOARD CERTIFIED. PROFESSIONAL.
MEDICAL EXPERTS IN THE PRO-LIFE MOVEMENT SINCE 1973
According to Bureau of Labor Statistics data, there were 19,820 OB-GYNs in the U.S in May, 2023 (estimate). "Thousands of ob-gyns" isn't very specific. If you're going to appeal to the number of them that are pro-life as authoritative, you might want to include a precise measure. That is, what % of ob-gyns have that view?
Maybe that wasn't your point, though. Maybe you just wanted to be able to point to some that are against abortion as if that proves anything by itself.
And this appeal to authority is based on a questionable premise anyway. An OB-GYN that treats pregnant women and assists with delivering babies is a specialist and expert at doing that. You have provided no argument for why their opinion on the moral question of abortion is more authoritative than anyone else's opinion.
And Jason, you might admit that you know less than every one of them 🙂
And they know more than the thousands of OB-GYNs that support abortion rights?
Like I said, if you're going to pull the appeal to authority fallacy that blatantly, at least be specific about who the authorities you are citing are and how their authority differs from people with the same credentials that have opposing views.
There are plenty of people who say ghosts are real, too. That doesn’t make them right.
IVF is completely ethical. Your opinion is irrelevant to anyone else’s reproductive choices.
No more or less relevant than your opinion. So fuck off.
Maybe you both have a right to your opinions.
Something Gov-Guns shouldn't be used to dictate from one to another.
Which side is trying to use Gov-Guns and dictate the other again?
“ No more or less relevant than your opinion. So fuck off.”
Correct, but I’m not trying to force anyone else to live by my opinion. Anti-abortionists are. So fuck off.
"Ever notice at those anti-abortion rallies, you wouldn't want to fuck any of them anyway!" -George Carlin
As usual, you got it backwards. None of the women in the above photograph would fuck you or (live) Carlin.
Sarc will just make them and then say "hey, abortion is legal", which is the real reason why men support it.
That was certainly Bill Clinton's reasoning.
If you want to see a butt ugly woman, talk to one that is a leftist.
The leftist women are so ugly they need a license just to walk around in public.
The insurrectionists interrupting RFK today were mostly the ugly white liberal woman types.
Sarc's not even picky, so I'm not sure why he's quoting an old Carlin bit.
He was a filthy hypocrite , I have seen him many times. He also found terrorist killing funny
Weed is legal in Illinois.
Why is there an amnesty box?
Who empties the amnesty box?
Chicago weed amnesty box = Chicago city employee break room stock
It’s at the airport. It’s a gift box for the tsa guys.
"Weed is legal in Illinois."
Sadly, weed is still illegal on the federal level.
But at least hemp is legal...and that's something.
The only place I’ve seen an amnesty box is in the airport. I assume it’s there for people who forget to leave their weed at home and are flying to one of the less free parts of the country. Are the boxes in other places besides transport hubs?
"They could also seriously imperil care for women experiencing pregnancy complications . . . "
WOLF! WOLF! WOLF!
"They could incentivize law enforcement to investigate women who naturally miscarry or pregnant women who act in ways that could be dubbed dangerous to their fetuses."
WOLF! WOLF! WOLF!
The current preferred villain pronoun is "Nazi".
Thank you, thank you very much.
He'll be here all week, folks.
Next thing you know they'll be criminalizing pointed a loaded gun at people at the bank and shouting "Gimme all your money!" or keeping a bear in the trunk of your car!
Or even worse yet. Criminalizing NOT wanting to reproduce.
Mifepristone spiking of women carrying a man's child are facts.
And the original FDA warning was severe
" It can be used only up to 7 weeks of pregnancy, it must be dispensed by a doctor after an in-person evaluation, the pill must be taken at the doctor’s office, and an in-person follow-up with the doctor is required. Any serious adverse effects would have to be reported to the FDA."
"women carrying a man's child"
Awe... The Pro-Life's "Women are nothing but a Mans Baby Incubator" takes form.
When will Pro-Life be repealing rape laws?
After all ... on this magical time-line of when "every monthly egg is a ?baby?";
The timing only lacks 1-millisecond from claiming ?baby? 'human rights' so entitled they get to demand human organ donations.
Is not the Pro-Life premise ... that not donating your human organs (hut hum ... fertilizing) is what defines "killing babies"?
Every monthly PMS cycle is a "dead baby"!!!!! /s
REPEAL the rape laws! Every 'baby' deserves to live! /s
Not as-if any just "mans baby-incubator" has any say in this! /s
Precisely why the USA has a written Supreme Law.
So [WE] mobs completely OCD mind-polluted with their Power-mad political agenda's can't pull this disgusting display of human rights violations.
Course Alito came along and claimed his "moral standards" VOID all of that (4A & 13A). Direct quote from the Dobbs ruling. The very fact judicial "moral standards" is overturning the Supreme Law of the Land should cause a lot more upset.
I just can't find it in me to care about abortion one way or the other.
Especially while literally every other possible body part and medical procedure and every type of medicine is fully under the micromanaged control of the state.
plus since it's at the state level just drive a couple hours for your abortion. it's not that big of a deal. if you're an abortion maxxer, this is still a pretty good time for you.
As if the people who support these laws would not think that conspiracy to commit murder by going out of state to commit murder would not be on the table?? Do you trust these psychos to make rational decisions?
The religious right really fucked this country up. Can't teach safe sex in schools, can't get birth control, can't get an abortion... can't get porn... can't get funding for day care when the 15yr old carries the baby to term... JUST ALL AROUND F Youuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu
The sexual repression these freaks must have suffered from their youth must have done a real number on them for them to lash out in such obvious ways to make everybody as miserable as them. What a shitty way to go through life.
Safe sex has been taught in schools for 20 years and abortion is at its highest. Condoms are given away for free, birth control is easily accessible with a trip to a PP or other cheap clinic.
Lack of Safe sex education is not the cause of your issues.
Literally every single abortion in America can be accounted for if fertile women (13 to 49) in America had sex an average of three times a year using the pill while her partner wore a condom. And yes, that’s taking into account that women are only fertile 25% of the time.
If you calculate with just the pill, it exceeds all annual abortions by a fair amount. If you calculate with just a condom, it vastly outpaces abortions.
You are completely incorrect. Abortions have continued a downward trend that has been happening since 1990 (https://www.statista.com/statistics/185274/number-of-legal-abortions-in-the-us-since-2000/). It is safe and rare where it is legal, not nearly as safe where it’s illegal. The mortality rate when it’s illegal is significantly higher.
Apparently parents in red states don’t love their daughters as much as those in blue states because yes, your teen daughters are having sex, too.
“ Lack of Safe sex education is not the cause of your issues.”
The only people who think that abortion is anything other than an individual issue are the government-coercion-loving fringe on the right. Safe sex fails sometimes, because nothing is perfect in life. Abortion is a valuable back-up plan for those who use protection, but don’t want children. There is literally nothing wrong with that.
What you're describing hasn't been the case since the 1980s, retard.
The religious right really fucked this country up. Can't teach safe sex in schools, can't get birth control, can't get an abortion... can't get porn... can't get funding for day care when the 15yr old carries the baby to term...
Liar.
I live in one of the most religious states in the US. None of these things are true. Murdering the unborn is severely restricted but not prohibited.
You sound like a failed CNN reporter.
Ironically it wasn't the left that established Roe v Wade.
Republicans established that right. They were just stupid to repeal it.
Kind-of like TikTok. They were stupid to entertain it but it was the left that 'DID' it.
Ahh, for the longest time I've been trying to get a bead on you, windy. Now I understand. It's a kind of proto-Marxism that was borne of OG Karl's anathema for religion (specifically, Christianity).
I'm curious why you described any of that as "f'd up" or "repressive." Safe sex in schools (oxymoron, btw) isn't something to be encouraged, nor is birth control or abortion (don't know why you felt compelled to be redundant there, but whatever) - because that's just encouraging meaningless recreational sex. A fleeting pleasure that often leaves behind oceans of regret. That's not happiness. Regret, misery, painful consequences - that's not what God wants for us. Which is why Marxism encourages it.
Christianity instead advocates chastity until marriage, and then fidelity after - both for the purpose of enhancing the overall welfare of the family. This comes from thousands of years of human observation which undeniably shows that healthy nuclear families bring more joy, satisfaction, prosperity, and stability (and, incidentally, wealth) to people than anything else.
Pornography both degrades the value of a human being to mere objectification and sexual gratification, and preys on the base, shallow impulses of human beings - which, if indulged, undermines their capacity for self-control and temperance. (Recreational drug use does this as well, in a much worse way.) You're just not a better human for it at the end of the day. And Christianity is all about humans being the best they can be (for the purpose of glorifying God). Marxism, of course, hates this - because its goal is equally shared misery.
What you want to call the "sexual repression of freaks" is, in fact, sexual liberation at its highest state. Monogamous marriage, child-bearing, and family is the most anti-repressive thing ever. You may not understand this if you've never taken the time to read it, but the Bible - that is, the literal Word of God - isn't just a collection of history, theology, philosophy, and biography. It's a How To Manual.
It is quite literally a book about what causes unhappiness; the ways to avoid it; what to do to fix it; how to overcome pain, loneliness, regret, sorrow, despair, apathy, despondency, cowardice, subjugation, oppression, and most of all fear; and why trust, faith, humility, repentance, reverence, and family (and not just in the immediate sense) are the path to happiness.
You may regard that as Karl did - an "opiate of the masses." But, the only reason he did that is because he knew that the Christian people were an unconquerable one. Unlike like most anti-Christians (aka bigots), I think he actually understood that. Many people don't. They don't get it. NOBODY can harm us. You can take everything we have, you can kill everyone we love, you can drive us to our knees and put a blade to our necks - but we're not afraid. Not even Satan himself threatens us. Because we've already won the decisive battle. Or, more accurately, it was won for us.
Marx hated that sheer defiance among the Christian people. And if he was going to seduce/subjugate people under his philosophy, the first and most important thing he had to do was to try and sever their relationship to God, Christ, and the Holy Spirit. His overall goal, in his verbiage, was just to swap one opiate for another. (And it wasn't even original. Juvenal teased that idea long before Karl Marx ever did.) But the sad open secret is that you can't find happiness in hookups, highs, or other hubris. You never ever will.
Marx died failing to pretend otherwise. Don't you fall down the same hole, like so many - even here - have. And if you need a hand, let me know. It's what we do for each other.
Let me save you some time. I am an atheist. I don't care what the bible says. I also firmly believe that what the bible says (or rather how its interpreted among the various sects) should not be made into public policy.
And my list above...is all based on proposed bills from the religious right GOP. They are actively banning porn (and now even wanting to criminalize it); they want abstinence only education in schools, they don't want to fund 'welfare' and social services for teen mothers. Sex outside marriage is sin. Sex for recreational purposes instead of for procreation is also viewed as sinful by some sects while others are okay with polygamy!
See that is one of the problems with enshrining religious motivated laws... there are varying degrees of belief and different interpretations of the bible that motivates the individual lawmakers. Its like a no true scotsman on steroids. But the one thing they all have in common is wanting to force their beliefs and moral code onto the rest of us. And that is a line too far. Live your life as you want with whatever beliefs you want just leave me and my family out of it.
I also firmly believe that what the bible says (or rather how its interpreted among the various sects) should not be made into public policy.
Why not? Why would you NOT want the literal handbook to mortal, and ultimately eternal happiness be the central basis for public policy?
Because you don't care what it it says? Because you want to be your own god and shape public policy around YOUR will instead? I mean, even if we just zero in on this one subject, all the things you championed - safe sex in schools, birth control, abortion - why would you want public policy built around things that ultimately only cause pain and misery?
One of the things I've noticed in particular among people - both staff and readers - on this site is the frequent equating of "hedonism" with "happiness." It's not as explicit as that, and I'm not accusing you of making that argument here or anywhere else
- but it's clearly prevalent at Reason. And I can't help but think of Dorian Gray in those moments. Dorian Gray, whose curse led him through a life of unapologetic hedonism, increasingly depraved as it indulged in every vice and taboo each worse than the last, but never brought him any happiness and only caused him to murder his best friend, drown in guilt and paranoia, and ultimately self-destruct.
A false choice perhaps, but I'm going to ask it anyway: of the two, which would you prefer be your neighbor? A God-fearing Christian, or Dorian Gray?
Sex for recreational purposes instead of for procreation is also viewed as sinful by some sects while others are okay with polygamy!
Mm, don't get bogged down by the "sects." The only one that actually matters is Catholicism. The rest are in some way shape or form just engaged in some version of violating the First Commandment. (Jeremiah 23 is very specific about this, and then Jesus confirms it in Matthew 7. You might not care, and probably won't read it - but just saying (and I hope you do read it).)
But the one thing they all have in common is wanting to force their beliefs and moral code onto the rest of us. And that is a line too far.
That's ridiculous. God Himself acknowledges that the beliefs and moral code - that's a choice. It's where timeless idioms like "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" and "I can show you the door, but you have to walk through it" come from.
Christ Himself specifically distinguished the Laws of God from the Laws of Man. "Render to Caesar," and so forth. Windy, I would challenge you to go to just a single Sunday Catholic Mass. Listen to what they say and do. Listen to the words of the prophets, the apostles, the Messiah, and then to the homily. Follow the liturgy. It's the same no matter where you go. You don't have to participate in it - just observe.
I can only speak to minimal experience when it comes to what protestants or methodists or baptists or LDS or *eyeroll* the non-denom "megachurch" types do - but I can tell you for certain that they talk a lot more about "public policy" than Catholics ever do. And I say that with the express purpose of suggesting that your fear of "enshrining religiously motivated laws" is an unfounded one.
Catholics - at least, modern Catholics - have no desire to impose anything on you, let alone against your will. We don't even talk about public policy at mass - just pray for the wisdom of our leaders and for the souls of the misguided and those harmed by their misguidance. Because we don't care about what Caesar says. We care about what God says. The goal is to bring you to Christ of your own volition - not fix your unfixable society of fallen men that will never, ever, be the utopia you might think/hope/wish it can.
I fear you have a grave misunderstanding of what Christianity is, windy. And maybe that's on account of the kinds of "Christians" that Jeremiah and Christ warned about (and I won't deny that many Catholics along the ages have been just as bad). I can admit that's a valid concern. But public policy doesn't create happiness, and Biblical Christianity doesn't even remotely try to suggest that it will or even can.
Like I said - under all its philosophy, theology, history, and morality - it's just a guidebook to human happiness. An entirely optional, but highly encouraged, one at that.
Another failed attorney that has to get into abortion litigation to put booze on the table.
Everything you name esp in toto marks you as someone 95% of commenters on here would not let in thier home let alone near their children. Some won't admit but you probably know from experience that come off as a disgusting low-life sod.
Look, I just think communists should not have more rights my unborn son. If my wife can snuff him out, she should have the liberty to the same to any commie that happens to be on campus.
Not caring that, "every other possible body part and medical procedure and every type of medicine is fully under the micromanaged control of the state"
Is exactly how the USA got to the Nazi-Empire it is today.
Since the fall of Roe v. Wade, bills aiming to criminalize abortion providers have proliferated. But it's relatively rare to see lawmakers propose criminalizing women who obtain abortions—well, it was rare, at least. In January, lawmakers in at least four states introduced proposals to make intentionally harming a fertilized egg or fetus punishable under homicide statutes, with no exceptions for women who get abortions unless they were forced or coerced into ending their pregnancies.
I'd have to say AnEqualRightsAmendmentAdvocateSaysWhat?
Just as well be charging drug abuse as 'murdering' one's self.
...because [WE] mobs have "moral standards" [WE]'d like to shove down your throat.
Might as well charge Mother’s poop pile for all the babies he has murdered with his stomach juices.
sans yin, no yang.
“ 4 States Consider Bills To Treat Women Who Get Abortions as Murderers”
Remember when Republicans assured us that they weren’t going to do anything like this and pro-choice people were skeptical? Surprising no one with a brain, being a self-righteous right-wing zealot isn’t incompatible with lying through your teeth.
what's beautiful is all anyone ever wanted was for the fucking states to be able to decide and now they can. go to a more murdery one if you are unhappy
And stick another 'farewell' flag in the Bill of Rights (4A & 13A).
Precisely why this nation has a Nazi-Empire on its hands.
You're not going to 'save' the USA by killing what the USA *is*.
it's rare, but sometimes like this time idkwtf you are talking about
Ref; the Civil War and how Slavery was ended.
The left insisted the 'Fed' had no authority to end slavery and ensure human rights (bill of rights).
It was "up to the States" to decide.
First imagine The Crusades, The Inquisition, The Salem Witch trials... then imagine instead of all the bloodshed and torture and misery, all the Christians just said, "Jesus! Wouldja just do that somewhere else?"*
*This depiction may or may not represent the actual progression of any actual events contemporary or historic.
lolz +1
“ all anyone ever wanted was for the fucking states to be able to decide”
No, that’s all anti-abortionists wanted. The vast majority of people want individuals to be able to decide. Between the government and the individual, one is better equipped to make the decision, and a state government is ill-equipped to do so.
This fallacy that this shifted the decision from the federal to the state government is too idiotic for words. How could anyone believe such obvious stupidity?
>>The vast majority of people want individuals to be able to decide.
ya in a state where it's legal.
Yes. What’s your point? That someone having to uproot their entire life to exercise their rights is acceptable to you? Because that’s a frightening view on individual rights.
"States' rights" has been the refuge of people that didn't like it when they couldn't impose their reactionary worldview on the whole country since before I was born. It goes back at least to when there were people in power in some states that wanted their states to have the 'right' to enslave people. When they can no longer get a majority of the country to go along with their goals of keeping some people "in their place", that is when they start to demand federalism and talk about the 10th Amendment. Because there will be at least some states where they can still control the whole government.
"It goes back at least to when there were people in power in some states that wanted their states to have the 'right' to enslave people."
Indeed +1000000.
Female state-owned baby incubators = 0% citizens.
A human egg with sperm on it = 100% citizens w/plantation powers.
Now get back to work reproducing 'Woman-body' or you'll be charged with Murder against your plantation owner.
Nelson never got over my pointing out that Democrats started this. so let me -repost
Recognized as a major leader of modern liberalism in America, the lead author of the '64 Civil Rights Act famously quipped, "I will eat my hat if this leads to racial quotas."
I could post probably 20 of these but this is what Nelson felt the sting from so let's sting em again, shall we 🙂
I didn’t respond to that at all, so I’m not sure why you are bringing it up and talking about me. I oppose affirmative action.
100% Correct.
The Pro-Life movement originated in the left-wing (fittingly).
Roe v Wade was written by Republicans.
WTF are Republicans doing carrying water for a left-wing agenda?
Apparently, with a power-mad government (formed by the left), they forgot they were about ensuring Individual Liberty and Justice for all and instead thought they were religious saviors (Gov-Gun-Gods).
Freedom for the ?baby? and the Woman.
NOT enslavement of the ?baby? inside the Woman.
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (Individual Liberty)
You're supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
...maybe this is a PERSONAL subject that the Gov-Guns should just sit this one out.
Set up a charity to bus people out of religious states to secular ones, and provide what they need. No problem.
Eventually the religious states will get rid of their silly, government-instituted religion and take the requirement to wear a swimsuit while bathing off the books.
Sure, denying a person their rights is perfectly fine if there is a logistical path to get somewhere that doesn’t oppress their citizens. That’s your argument?
I'd have to read the bills, but in principle I have no problem with this. The government needs to recognize fetuses as humans, and give them the same protections.
Keep them protected inside another persons body?
Maybe you'd like to protect more and require every person be sheltered by their parents too?
“ The government needs to recognize fetuses as humans”
Why? That’s like recognizing a seed as a tree or an aluminum deposit as a car. It makes no sense and can’t be justified without begging a whole boatload of questions.
Aah, Nelson doesn't even know enough Logic to fake knowing Logic.
No it can't be the same for 3 logical reasons.
1) It is only like calling a seed a tree if it is like calling a seed a tree.
2) It must make sense or you wouldn't have seen the bad analogy you made:)
3)the uniqueness and unrepeatable dignity of the aborted person means to follow your poor argument, that chopping down a tree is like taking a human life.
You are shamed enough. do grow up if you can
“ It must make sense or you wouldn't have seen the bad analogy you made:)”
First, genius, it’s an example not an analogy. The car one is an analogy.
A seed is the tree’s version of a fertilized egg, but a seed isn’t in any way a tree. It may or may not, after a certain amount of time, become a tree. But it isn’t a tree. Just like a fertilized egg isn’t a human being.
The car one is merely reinforcing the point that just because something can become something else, it doesn’t mean you can’t just say it already is. Potential, not actuality, whether a seed, a fertilized egg, or a bunch of aluminum.
“ 3)the uniqueness and unrepeatable dignity of the aborted person means to follow your poor argument, that chopping down a tree is like taking a human life.”
Correct. Once a fetus becomes a human being, killing that human being would be taking a human life.
Technically a fetus becomes a human being at birth, but my personal belief is that once viability is a non-zero prospect you have to err on the side of viability being achieved. So from my perspective, at 21 weeks a fetus is effectively a human being.
I have proposed a standard for viability in these threads that would place the point where a fetus gains the same rights as a human being at the earliest point a fetus has ever been delivered and survived.
Since the lungs are the last organ to develop and they are absolutely necessary for survival, there isn’t much likelihood that the 21 weeks point moves. Before the 1970s it was a few days over 21 weeks, then a fetus was delivered at 21 weeks and survived, setting a new standard. In the last 50 years it hasn’t moved at all. Probably because sufficient development of the lungs rarely happens so early.
No animal grows an inanimate object inside of it that, at some point in the future, becomes alive. It's an unbroken chain of life going back 3.7 billion years.
How much logic does it take to realize that no-act of 'killing' isn't a murder?
All Pro-Life needed to do is make the act of 'destruction' of a fetus illegal but support the Woman's Individual Right to fetal ejection. i.e. BOTH entities get Individual Rights.
Of course; Pro-Life will never do that.
BECAUSE their entire 'murder' premise resides in fantasy-land (religion) and reality would kick-in after that and prove they are full of "faith" BS.
The government isn't there to FORCE your "beliefs" onto others.
If you want to outlaw 'murder' you have every chance of doing that.
You just don't get to "belief" a 'murder' without any 'act' of a murder ever happening.
If you cannot support ?baby? freedom (fetal ejection)
UR supporting Gov-Gun FORCED reproduction.
An analogy isn't an argument.
I didn't even read the article, but I know with absolute certainty that it's full of lies, mistruths and/or distortions. It's what ENB does.
So if they pass, and this bothers you, just move out of Indiana, North Dakota, Oklahoma, and South Carolina. What's the big deal?
You're allowed - encouraged even - to find local communities that share your values and contribute your voice in helping make those values reflected in your laws and social order.
And the same goes for the good people of those four states.
Abortion is a State's Rights issue now. I'm surprised "libertarians" have such criticism for that.
And I'm especially perplexed that the folks here at Reason aren't supporting these ballot initiatives. I mean, those could be anchor babies that are being murdered in utero! Surely that's got to count as murder in your book, right? Don't you care about illegals?
Jacob? Emma? Right??
And I'm especially perplexed that the folks here at Reason aren't supporting these ballot initiatives. I mean, those could be anchor babies that are being murdered in utero! Surely that's got to count as murder in your book, right? Don't you care about illegals?
For all the cry of genocide in Gaza or somewhere else, it's pretty provable that abortion has effectively relegated blacks to < 20% of the population when they provably would be > 30% of the population otherwise, already, without abortion. Similar for all the projections about COVID deaths and future-present AGW project-icon deaths.
But as continually gets pointed out and ENB/Reason does little to refute; to them it's not critically about liberty or diversity or equality of opportunity or prosperity... it's about exercising the power to force others to support their efforts to kill babies.
The fact that you twist Individual choice into 'force others' (a flat lie)
Just proves how unhinged you are on the subject.
The bottom-line is you want to take away Individual choice and 'force others' to your own religious beliefs and you use imaginary 'babies' (unicorns) cooked up in your own head to excuse it.
Believe what you want. You have no right to demand your beliefs onto others with Gov-Guns.
“ blacks to 30% of the population otherwise, already, without abortion”
So what? They don’t lose their right to make their own decision because it might impact demographics.
“ it's about exercising the power to force others to support their efforts to kill babies.”
Can you really not see who is doing the forcing when abortion bans prevent oeople from making their own choice about abortion? No one is forcing anyone to have an abortion when pro-choice laws are passed.
Why does any society, nation-state, or even tribal community have laws, Nelson?
I'm asking seriously and genuinely. Do you know?
Initially? To create a set of rules to order society around.
As time has gone by, we have discovered that laws that reinforce existing cuktural norms are almost universally abusive. It wasn’t until the Enlightenment that the scales tipped towards the idea that human beings have certain rights naturally and that they aren’t granted by the Church or the State.
Since then it has been a long struggle to get laws to respect the natural rights of people.
Today, the best laws are those that protect the rights of people by preventing abuses and rejecting coercion as a means of forcing individuals to behave in a certain way. The valid exceptions are actions that impact others or prevent them from exercising their rights. Locke simplified it (possibly oversimplified it) as life, liberty, and property. If an action doesn’t interfere with those three things, it should be legal.
Obviously that is essentially the Non Aggression Principle, the cornerstone of libertarian (and, really, Enlightenment) thinking. And we are a nation of the Enlightenment, with many of those principles enshrined in our two foundational documents, the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution.
Said more simply, laws are the means by which rights are protected and violations of the rights of others are adjudicated. They exist because human societies need to have a structure for their society. And, ultimately, humans are surprisingly rule-following (and rule-desiring) animals.
Asking why we have laws isn’t nearly as interesting to discuss as asking what the acceptable limitations that laws can put on the citizens.
How about you? Why do you think societies have laws? And, if you want to get into a really fun discussion, what limitations are justified in a law? What can and can’t (or even should or shouldn’t) be forbidden bay a law?
To create a set of rules to order society around.
Is that a good thing, or a bad thing?
Locke simplified it (possibly oversimplified it) as life, liberty, and property. If an action doesn’t interfere with those three things, it should be legal.
And who gets to decide the priority of those things, and to what those terms are ascribed? And on what basis?
And what happens when people disagree? Who gets to be the arbiter and on what authority?
Obviously that is essentially the Non Aggression Principle, the cornerstone of libertarian (and, really, Enlightenment) thinking.
Pretty sure that the cornerstone of libertarian thinking (which is kind of an oxymoron in the first place) is just being high and never using deodorant - but I'll accept your claim otherwise for sake of argument.
But, what's aggression? Is it limited to physical acts? Or does it extend to acts of social and moral travesty as well? Does it require intent? Does it make allowances for innocent mistakes? Who gets to define whether I've been aggressed, or am being an aggressor? And on what basis and authority?
Asking why we have laws isn’t nearly as interesting to discuss as asking what the acceptable limitations that laws can put on the citizens.
Yea, but you're putting the cart before the horse. You're oversimplifying your definition to make it more malleable and favor it to the conclusion you want to reach. It's why I'm asking these questions.
“Order is a good thing, as long as it doesn’t try to do it by forcing everyone to behave a certain way. Laws should address actions that infringe on the rights of others and regulation of the commons. Avoiding the tragedy of the commons is a valid governmental goal.
“ And who gets to decide the priority of those things, and to what those terms are ascribed? And on what basis?”
Which things? The rights people have? The society as a whole. In our case, that’s the Constitution. In general (especially with the ninth Amendment included) the get it right. I find the Constitution an incredible document that tries to provide the most freedom to its citizens.
"And what happens when people disagree?
The Constitution provides a means for change. It has occurred numerous times throughout our history. We even screwed up once and had to fix it.
“Who gets to be the arbiter and on what authority?"
We, the people are the arbiters. And the ultimate authority is the natural rights of human beings, but in America we have codified that into the Constitution.
“ But, what's aggression?”
If you are actually being serious, and not declining, you can find more here:
https://www.libertarianism.org/topics/non-aggression-principle
FWIW, my beliefs run most closely to Herbert Spencer’s Law of Equal Freedom: “Every man has freedom to do all that he wills, provided he infringes not the equal freedom of any other man”. A simpler way to say it is “you leave me alone and I’ll leave you alone.”.
“ Yea, but you're putting the cart before the horse. You're oversimplifying your definition to make it more malleable and favor it to the conclusion you want to reach. It's why I'm asking these questions.”
I don’t see how you reach that conclusion. It isn’t malleable at all. Importantly, it acknowledges the idea that you are justified in forcing others to behave according to your beliefs, particularly moral beliefs, it literally assure you of living in a world where you have little control over the direction of society unless large numbers of people reach the same conclusion as you. Due to the fact that, in a society built around the idea of personal freedom, that will occur very rarely, the State will, due to the system, have limited control over people’s behavior).
“ It's why I'm asking these questions.” That’s usually a phrase that indicates bad faith, but I am choosing to assume otherwise.
Order is a good thing, as long as it doesn’t try to do it by forcing everyone to behave a certain way.
Order tries, by force, to make everyone behave in a certain way all the time. For example: don't murder each other.
You have a problem with this?
Laws should address actions that infringe on the rights of others and regulation of the commons. Avoiding the tragedy of the commons is a valid governmental goal.
It's weird that you would pair that thought with the tragedy of the commons. If I exercise my liberty so wantonly that it deprives you of a resource, are you suggesting you had a right to said resource?
Is your claim to that resource greater or lesser than mine, and why?
Which things?
Life, liberty, and property.
The Constitution says NOTHING about their priority. In fact, come to think of it, it doesn't even MENTION any of them at all. The Constitution explains the nature, role, and limits of our government.
Perhaps you were thinking of the Declaration? But even then, Jefferson never prioritized them. There was no, "Liberty is important, but not more important than Life" kind of talk. Or "Life is important, but if you invade another's Property then your right to it becomes forfeit."
So, I'm asking YOU to prioritize them. Mainly because you're the one asserting a hierarchy in their importance and value when it comes to codification in guaranteeing them by the State.
The Constitution provides a means for change. It has occurred numerous times throughout our history. We even screwed up once and had to fix it.
Yea, but that still left a lot of people pretty unhappy, and feeling like they got a raw deal on things. But then, let's go all the way back to my original point: they got outvoted, things changed - and they were free to leave if they didn't like it (or suck it up and quit their whining if they weren't willing to do so).
You seem to be against what Indiana, North Dakota, Oklahoma, and South Carolina are doing here. And yet, you're explicitly defending the framework by which they do it. I don't say this disparagingly, I'm just genuinely wondering whether you're keeping track of your own overall argument here.
And the ultimate authority is the natural rights of human beings
Where did those natural rights come from? Under what authority can they be asserted?
I mean, plants and animals are part of nature too. Do they also have natural rights? How do they assert them?
https://www.libertarianism.org/topics/non-aggression-principle
"The principle forbids “aggression,” which is understood to be any and all forcible interference with any individual’s person or property except in response to the initiation (including, for most proponents of the principle, the threatening of initiation) of similar forcible interference on the part of that individual."
Cool, cool.
Um, so, listen. Your words on the screen here? They're kind of a forcible interference with my person. I mean, I'm reading them and I don't much care for that. And they're showing up on my computer screen, so that's kind of a forcible interference with my property too. Please stop aggressing me.
(Pretty good woke impression, right?)
So, look - I'm of the school that the right to swing my fist ends at the tip of your nose. But that doesn't mean that the extent of my liberty is to constantly take swings at you just so long as I don't actually touch you. You wouldn't be OK with that, would you.
A simpler way to say it is “you leave me alone and I’ll leave you alone.”.
Yea, but humans can rarely be trusted to abide by that. They need things a little more specific. My neighbor had a New Years Party that was... by all impressions, pretty off the hook. They were having some raucous fun. I don't begrudge, but I did find it annoying, mostly because I could hear them outside my walls drunken yelling and carousing and lighting off fireworks. That's not exactly "leaving me alone," is it.
Now, I'm not going to make a big deal out of it, but it goes back to the earlier point - at what point does swinging your fist, even if it doesn't touch my nose, become something we want to impose a social degree of order over?
Again, your point is an oversimplified one. I respect your right to own a dog. I still want to shoot it when it won't stop yapping in your backyard at 3:30 in the morning. I know that's an overreaction on my part. But I also know it's a negligence on yours. That's not something that's as easily discerned by something as simplistic as "you leave me alone and I'll leave you alone," is it.
In law, this is known as the "Balance of Interests." There's a famous Conflicts of Laws case every 1L knows about the sailor who tied up his boat to weather a storm on someone else's dock, causing damage to the dock in the process. There was a jurisdictional issue there too, but more pertinent to our conversation is the question of the sailor's immediate necessity vs the dock owner's property interest.
Which is ultimately at the heart of the "intentionally killing in utero humans" debate. Which takes higher priority - the liberty interest of the mother, or the life interest of her human progeny?
Even if you don't think that's up for debate, can't you at least acknowledge that there's nothing wrong with a democratic decision on such a thing at a state level which in no way restricts anyone who doesn't like it from seeking greener (redder?) pastures - especially knowing they're exposing considerable risk to their tax base should there be an exodus as a result?
I asked you the micro, because I wanted you to understand how it affects the macro. I think (I hope) you do. There is nothing at all wrong or objectionable about what these four states are doing. The balance of interests has been made, the people have spoken, and the minority (as opposed to the State) suffers zero consequence if they choose to leave as a result.
What possible improvement is there on that social/governance model?
Importantly, it acknowledges the idea that you are justified in forcing others to behave according to your beliefs, particularly moral beliefs, it literally assure you of living in a world where you have little control over the direction of society unless large numbers of people reach the same conclusion as you.
Yea, we do this all the time. Don't rape, don't murder, don't steal, don't kidnap - you have little control over the direction of society's moral beliefs on those subjects unless large numbers of people also want to rape murder steal and kidnap. GLWT, and then get over it.
And if you can't get over it, America and every one of its States is cool enough that we'll let you leave no questions asked. Again, what possible improvement is there on that social/governance model?
“ It's why I'm asking these questions.” That’s usually a phrase that indicates bad faith, but I am choosing to assume otherwise.
It works better that way. Ask Brix sometime. If I put this much effort into reading, considering, and composing my replies - it because I'm taking you seriously and acting in good faith when I respond.
We're not enemies, Nelson. That nonsense is for the mindless partisan NPCs. We're just two people who disagree, and can have a meaningful and productive discussion - even if we both end up right back where we started - without being dicks about it.
I value that. I suspect you do too.
“ Order tries, by force, to make everyone behave in a certain way all the time. For example: don't murder each other.”
No, order is derived from applying a system of punishment for acts that one chooses to do. Murder isn’t illegal because it’s morally wrong, it’s illegal because you are depriving a fellow citizen of their life. There are set processes by which the offense against another person’s rights are investigated, adjudicated, and punishment for the violation of rights is applied to the instigator. That’s not the same as an abortion ban, which seeks to infringe on the rights of a pregnant woman using the power of the state. One is justified because it protects rights, one is not because it infringes on rights without a valid basis.
“ It's weird that you would pair that thought with the tragedy of the commons. If I exercise my liberty so wantonly that it deprives you of a resource, are you suggesting you had a right to said resource?”
Preventing the tragedy of the commons is a much different thing and isn’t really a rights argument.
Although you may have an idea there. I don’t have a problem with making a determination of how much air or free-flowing water each person controls the rights to and allowing them to sell (or refuse to sell) their individual parcel to a company that wants to pollute it. In fact, doing so would probably be a better way to restrict companies polluting the land and air than the collectivist approach of something like a carbon tax or repeated fines.
“ In fact, come to think of it, it doesn't even MENTION any of them at all”
I didn’t say it did. While there are some rights specifically enumerated in the Constitution, the Ninth Amendment makes it clear it isn’t an exhaustive list. The Declaration of Independence, however, specifically references the Lockean phrase of “life, liberty, and property” with “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”. As I mentioned before, our founding documents and the philosophies our nation were founded on were unambiguously Enlightenment ideas.
“ So, I'm asking YOU to prioritize them. Mainly because you're the one asserting a hierarchy in their importance and value when it comes to codification in guaranteeing them by the State.”
I said no such thing. There is no reason to “prioritize” them. A person has those rights by virtue of being a human being. There isn’t any sort of trade-off or bargaining available. The are all held by the rights-holding person and are (another Enlightenment concept reflected in the Declaration) inalienable. What a weird thing to ask me to do.
“ Yea, but that still left a lot of people pretty unhappy, and feeling like they got a raw deal on things”
Which is irrelevant. You are guaranteed rights, not acceptance of what those rights allow. If your belief is convincing enough, the Constitution will change to reflect that an error was made before. It was specifically and intentionally created knowing it wouldn’t get everything right and included a means by which errors could be corrected. I would again point to Prohibition as the best example of the Constitution working as intended. If the people, the source of the government’s authority, are unhappy with something, they can try to change it. But the fact that some people are unhappy with some part of law or government is about as obvious as it gets. Nothing will ever be agreed on by 100% of people. That’s why the largest range of possible lifestyle and personal choices should be available to the people.
“ You seem to be against what Indiana, North Dakota, Oklahoma, and South Carolina are doing here.”
Correct. The states are depriving the people of rights that they hold (inalienable rights, so not subject to removal by government) without establishing a valid justification to do so. That is a clear violation of the rights guaranteed in the Constitution.
“ And yet, you're explicitly defending the framework by which they do it”
As I said above, you have it exactly wrong. The Constitution guarantees the rights of the pregnant women and they cannot be taken away by any government. Not local, state, or federal.
“ I don't say this disparagingly, I'm just genuinely wondering whether you're keeping track of your own overall argument here.”
I am. And I don’t say this disparagingly, either, because this has been an awesome discussion so far, but you probably aren’t seeing the internal consistency because you don’t share my foundational belief in individual rights. That’s not saying you don’t believe in them, you just allow for a lot more restrictions on them because you don’t see them as fundamental.
“ I mean, plants and animals are part of nature too. Do they also have natural rights?”
No. It is a philosophy that applies specifically to humans. Locke wasn’t the only one to assert them, but he was the most influential one in history. The United States and its system of government is largely based on the Enlightenment, and specifically on Locke’s philosophies. He also discussed the separation of power and the importance of a secular state, among other things that the Founders largely embraced. This is a good source of you’re interested:
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/locke-political/
“ Your words on the screen here? They're kind of a forcible interference with my person.”
They are not, and it isn’t just “woke” people who think this way. The right-wing side that is most similar to the left-wing are religious people. There is a lot of anger about disparaging speech surrounding religion.
For example, I am opposed to (and often disgusted by) the things many Universities do with “free speech zones” (which is called the United States by normal people). And don’t get me started on “microaggressions”. The very core of free speech is the premise that you can say anything (as long as you stay on the right side of threatening language and a few other exceptions) that is vile, hateful, or offensive. You are guaranteed free speech, not speech that you want to hear. This is why I oppose hate speech laws. It’s literally the point of the First Amendment to protect such speech.
“ So, look - I'm of the school that the right to swing my fist ends at the tip of your nose.”
Agreed. That is a classic phrase describing a rights-based argument on freedom and liberty.
“ But that doesn't mean that the extent of my liberty is to constantly take swings at you just so long as I don't actually touch you.”
Depending on how foundational you view individual rights, that’s exactly what it means. You have the right not to be hit. You don’t have the right to stop someone else from swinging their fist, as you said. Except, of course, if someone is actually trying to hit you and just sucks as aiming.
“ You wouldn't be OK with that, would you.”
This is the most important point about rights, and the reason why cultural conservatives (meaning those who attempt to force culturally conservative behavior on others, usually through legislation) disgust me (as an aside, there is a difference between a social conservative, who lives their conservative ideals without trying to project them onto anyone else, and cultural conservatives). Social conservatives are just people who have conservative beliefs. I know a lot of them and they are, by and large, lovely people.
My point is whether or not I would be OK with someone swinging their fists in front of my face is irrelevant. If they aren’t attempting to (or succeeding at) hitting me, my dissatisfaction is irrelevant. In a rights-based society, you are assured of rights, not of approving of what others do with those rights.
This can’t be stressed enough. If you hate what someone else is doing with their rights, it is the sign of a successful society because as long as they aren’t violating your rights, you have no justification for trying to change their behavior.
“ Yea, but humans can rarely be trusted to abide by that.”
Of course not. That’s where laws come in. Laws are how we prevent the violation of rights. And if a law itself violates rights? It is thrown out because government cannot constrain those rights. We call it “unconstitutional”, but that’s gust because our foundational legal document is the Constitution.
“ That's not exactly "leaving me alone," is it.”
Agreed, but that is an oversimplification of a phrase that is a gross oversimplification of a natural rights argument. It’s actually a behavior-based version of the tragedy of the commons. Perhaps the rights- based approach you hinted at would apply. They have the right to make as much noise as they want, as long as it doesn’t enter the space where you are the rights-holder (your property).
“ That's not something that's as easily discerned by something as simplistic as "you leave me alone and I'll leave you alone," is it.”
Correct, because that is a gross oversimplification of a rights-based order, not a hard rule that applies absolutely to all situations. And, with all due respect, you know that and probably don’t believe that it is the standard of a rights-based society.
“ In law, this is known as the "Balance of Interests." There's a famous Conflicts of Laws case every 1L knows”
I am not a lawyer and know almost nothing about the minutiae of the law or legal hypotheticals or case discussed in law school. My sister is, so she would be a better person to debate. But she is very far left, so you would probably end up like me, wanting to smack her. I love her, but we disagree on a LOT of things.
“ Which is ultimately at the heart of the "intentionally killing in utero humans" debate. Which takes higher priority - the liberty interest of the mother, or the life interest of her human progeny?”
I understand the anti-abortion reasoning. The ones who aren’t mindlessly screaming about morality and murderers usually take this approach. And I can follow and respect it because it’s logical and rights-based unlike most anti-abortion nonsense.
The problem is you are assuming way too much for your starting point. In debate it’s a logical fallacy called “begging the question” or “assuming the conclusion”. It goes like this: Human beings have rights. A fetus is a human being. Therefore, a fetus has rights.
However, the middle part is by no means true. The most frustrating part of the anti-abortion argument is their unwillingness to make any attempt to establish it as true. They shift the meaning of “human being” to refer to anything with human DNA that could possibly develop into a born human, which is an illogical and indefensible addition of clauses to what is a rational and reasonable definition, which is a human organism capable of independently sustaining its own life (and please don’t do the gaslighting nonsense about feeding themselves or some permutation of it. That’s not what is meant by independent or sustaining it a life and you know it). That’s not reasonable or rational, but there is no attempt to establish it as a truth. Without the ability to independently exist, it makes no sense to claim it is a separate human being. They just assume the conclusion that they prefer and refuse to engage in the foundational premise.
“ Even if you don't think that's up for debate, can't you at least acknowledge that there's nothing wrong with a democratic decision on such a thing at a state level which in no way restricts anyone who doesn't like it from seeking greener (redder?) pastures”
There’s everything wrong with it. Think about what you just said: inalienable rights can be taken away as long as the person can go somewhere else that allows them to retain their rights.
That is literally the opposite of what the Constitution promises: that our rights cannot be taken away from us by the government without a rational justification.
How horrifying would it be if everyone was allowed to have their rights taken away at the whim of the democratic process without any valid reason?
That’s why we have the separation of powers and three co-equal branches of government.
Authoritarianism and totalitarianism is the result of such disregard for rights. The theocratic leanings of conservative states is disturbing, but have largely been blocked by the Supreme Court because making Christian laws imposes an illegitimate requirement on others to accept and follow Christian tenets. Such a thing should be abhorrent to everyone.
The short version? I not only don’t acknowledge it, I specifically reject the idea that rights are the government’s to give or take away. The democratic process does not justify government taking away someone’s rights.
“ There is nothing at all wrong or objectionable about what these four states are doing.”
If you believe individual rights are important, there is. It’s the fundamental thing that the Constitution is supposed to protect its citizens from: removal of inalienable rights. It’s nothing but wrong.
Create a scenario for yourself that would result in you losing a fundamental right.
Take, for example, the Fifth Amendment right not to incriminate yourself. Imagine a world where someone says, “allowing people to remain silent is a crime against the victim” and then use that to justify a state law that removes the right against self-incrimination. It’s not that the premise is wrong, theoretically. It’s that it hasn’t been established as true enough to be used as a premise for the removal of rights. So now, in that state, drugs can be administered to suspects to make them talk (or other forms of coercion).
It is literally that basic. Rights are fundamental and inalienable. An opinion like “a fetus is a human being” isn’t a justification for removing rights. Now, if you could establish such a premise was true, that would be a completely different thing. But that effort has never been made in a legal setting and has failed spectacularly in convincing more than 10% of people that it’s true. In fact, in every state (all deeply conservative) that has passed anti-abortion laws, abortion bans have lost by over 10 points. Every single time.
So from a rights perspective, it’s wrong. From a “consent of the governed” perspective it’s wrong. From a public support perspective it’s wrong.
The only perspective in which it isn’t wrong is the “anti-abortion lobbyists with massive budgets influencing politicians to vote against their constituents clearly-expressed interests” perspective. And that is as corrupt and venal a perspective as there is.
Plus, of course, it completely refutes your contention that it’s democratic. The idea that a politician who is anti-abortion has the support of their constituents on that specific issue, especially when public opinion surveys and voting results prove otherwise, is laughable.
“ Don't rape, don't murder, don't steal, don't kidnap - you have little control over the direction of society's moral beliefs on those subjects unless large numbers of people also want to rape murder steal and kidnap.”
But these aren’t laws against immoral acts, except tangentially. They are laws against infringing on the rights of another.
Just because a law happens to also be viewed as moral, that isn’t necessarily the reason it’s illegal. That’s flawed logic.
This is another tired trope that is embraced by both sides of the political spectrum in a disgusting real-world example of the horseshoe theory: that things that we find morally repugnant are illegal because they are morally repugnant and that that’s a good thing.
There has to be some sort of foundational reason, universal in scope, that justifies a law. The trend of the moment or a niche belief system doesn’t cut it.
“ It works better that way. Ask Brix sometime. If I put this much effort into reading, considering, and composing my replies - it because I'm taking you seriously and acting in good faith when I respond.”
I agree and appreciate it. This has been an awesome discussion and I’m willing to continue it as long as you are. My favorite part is that you are taking my words seriously and haven’t made some blanket assumption about what I REALLY believe (like the vast majority of paleocons do to me, pretending I’m some unthinking liberal hack (and a Democrat, which always makes my skin crawl because I have no interest in being a Democrat).
While my social positions tend to be characterized as “liberal”, especially by the commenters here, I hope you can see that it is an internally consistent, well-considered worldview that leads to my opinions, not some unthinking knee-jerk mimeograph liberal talking point (I hope you’re old enough to know what a mimeograph is).
“ Again, what possible improvement is there on that social/governance model?”
I am a supporter of federalism, but the line I won’t cross is that states can restrict fundamental rights because of the 10th Amendment. While there are probably examples of overreach, I find incorporation to be an important and necessary process that prevents individual rights from being infringed just by having a state do it.
“ We're not enemies, Nelson.”
I agree. I literally don’t think anyone here is my enemy, even the lunatic fringe paleocons like Jesse or the disturbing racists like Misek. It would literally be the opposite of my core belief system: that people should be free to be whatever they want to be as long as they don’t infringe on the rights of others.
There is a big difference between fundamentally and viscerally disagreeing with someone else and being their enemy.
“ I value that. I suspect you do too.”
You would be right.
Murder isn’t illegal because it’s morally wrong, it’s illegal because you are depriving a fellow citizen of their life.
Why can't it be both? (In fact, why do you (assuming you do) have a problem with "depriving a fellow citizen of their life" in the abstract? Is it because doing so is morally wrong, or just because it's a breach of the social compact?)
Suppose he isn't a fellow citizen. Can you now rationalize/justify his murder?
In fact, let's go to the state of nature. You have food, I kill you and take it for myself. No laws. No accountability. No consequences. Survival of the fittest.
It's still wrong though, correct?
What I'm getting at is that all of law - particularly American law - is based on its moral value.
Why is it illegal to kill someone?
Because you're depriving a fellow citizen of their life.
Why is that an issue?
Because they have a right to that life.
Says who?
The State and its People.
On what basis?
Now you've got a fork in the road. On one side, you can declare that it's effectively arbitrarily decided to be so, maybe try to come up with some post hoc rationalization for it ("society is more productive when we stop people from killing each other," for example, not that it would explain where "rights" come from). On the other, you have to admit, even though you're taking a roundabout path, that it's illegal because it's morally wrong.
Law and Morality are intertwined, Nelson. Always has been.
That’s not the same as an abortion ban, which seeks to infringe on the rights of a pregnant woman using the power of the state.
We do that all the time. Suppose your neighbor beats his wife. Like, savagely. Every night. That's his business. It's a private domestic issue. He's exercising his liberty, and any attempts to stop him would be infringing on his rights using the power of the State.
Oh, but let me guess - you have a problem with that because he shouldn't have the right to do such terrible things to another human being. Let alone a particularly vulnerable one.
You want to characterize things as "infringing on the rights of the abuser," like we should give even a single damn about her. In reality, it's the abuser that's the problem as they seek to abuse the rights of others.
Same goes for the pregnant woman. SHE'S the one who wants to infringe on the rights of others by committing abortion. She's the one that needs to be stopped. And prosecuted for it, according to four States.
Preventing the tragedy of the commons is a much different thing and isn’t really a rights argument.
Yea, it's why I was perplexed as to why you brought it up. Anyway.
I didn’t say it did. While there are some rights specifically enumerated in the Constitution, the Ninth Amendment makes it clear it isn’t an exhaustive list. The Declaration of Independence, however, specifically references the Lockean phrase of “life, liberty, and property” with “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness”. As I mentioned before, our founding documents and the philosophies our nation were founded on were unambiguously Enlightenment ideas.
Right, but we're not talking about ideas. We're talking about LAWS. The Declaration is a statement of morality and philosophy. The Constitution is a codifying document that establishes actual law.
Now, I get your point - because it's an accurate one. In fact, this is a conversation I usually have on the subject of religion. "The United States of America was not founded as a Christian nation," people say.
They're wrong. Flat out.
The United States did not establish a State religion. But literally every single Founding document and Founder who wrote it recognized that none of this works without Christian moral principles in society.
They made the law secular, but they made it very clear that nation hinged on a Christian society that operates under Christian values because none of their ideas - from Lockean philosophy to whatever the heck John Adams was going for - could survive without Christian morality to back it up.
And, I mean, let's not be coy. We've seen the disastrous results of a rights-based society that has increasingly rejected Christian morality over the last century. Life devalued, liberties endangered, property that we increasingly can't rightfully claim our own - to say nothing of the dwindling happiness index.
The point being that the State establishes secular law, but without morality it has no way of prioritizing those laws when they're in conflict. Except arbitrarily.
Which is precisely how it's handled abortion all the way back to Roe.
There is no reason to “prioritize” them. A person has those rights by virtue of being a human being.
You do this literally all the time. When you go grocery shopping, you may wish to exercise your liberty to find your purchases and go home. But you also know that you aren't going to murder everyone in line ahead of you, because their life rights are higher than your liberty rights. You also won't walk out the door without paying because you know the store's property rights also exceed your liberty rights. The other shoppers lives take priority; the store's property rights take priority - both over your own liberty.
Weirdly enough, liberty is the lowest man on the totem pole when it comes to Lockean rights. I'm sure there's a lot of liberty a lot of people would like to exercise. But it's a hard stop on it when it crosses the line onto you and your stuff, doesn't it.
Correct. The states are depriving the people of rights that they hold (inalienable rights, so not subject to removal by government) without establishing a valid justification to do so.
Arguably. I don't recall any established right in any Constitution - not even California - that makes inalienable the "right" to intentionally kill your in utero progeny on a whim.
The Constitution guarantees the rights of the pregnant women and they cannot be taken away by any government.
It really doesn't. I don't know where you think it does, again - the Constitution explains the nature, role, and limits of our government. I don't know where you think abortion fits into that (the Bill of Rights, maybe? But not sure where.) But the word "abortion" isn't even in the Constitution. OR Bill of Rights. Not anywhere.
That’s not saying you don’t believe in them, you just allow for a lot more restrictions on them because you don’t see them as fundamental.
Perhaps. But I don't see it as a "restriction" to tell someone they can't intentionally kill someone else simply because they're inconvenienced by them. I see that as liberation for their would-be victim against an unjust aggressor trying to rationalize her aggression under color of "liberty."
Don't you?
No. It is a philosophy that applies specifically to humans.
Why? Who made that specification, and on what basis?
The right-wing side that is most similar to the left-wing are religious people.
Mm, I think you'll find that the key difference between them is that the left-wing cries, "How dare you offend me!" Whereas the religious right takes umbrage with the affront to God.
I don't know if you'll appreciate that difference - but it is an important distinction.
Depending on how foundational you view individual rights, that’s exactly what it means. ... My point is whether or not I would be OK with someone swinging their fists in front of my face is irrelevant. If they aren’t attempting to (or succeeding at) hitting me, my dissatisfaction is irrelevant. In a rights-based society, you are assured of rights, not of approving of what others do with those rights.
I'm not sure how seriously I can take that. If I devoted my life to following you around, screaming invective, and waving my balled fists in front of your face any time you emerged in public, something tells me you'd get pretty sick of that pretty quick. Better yet, suppose I do it to someone of whom you're protective (wife, kids, whatever).
I doubt very much you'd celebrating my exercise of liberty as some kind of social positive success story, and would very much be seeking to personally - or enlisting the State - to "change my behavior."
And you'd be right to do so. Because said behavior is entirely unacceptable in civilized society - even though it doesn't infringe your rights even slightly.
They have the right to make as much noise as they want, as long as it doesn’t enter the space where you are the rights-holder (your property).
You don't see how that's contradictory? If they have to self-limit their noise, then they can't make as much as they want, can they.
I am not a lawyer and know almost nothing about the minutiae of the law or legal hypotheticals or case discussed in law school.
Mm, I don't think you need to be a lawyer or go to school to understand the present issue in that particular case. This goes back to the question of how rights are prioritized. I mean, forget about the law and just consider it from a personal perspective. Take it from either direction. It's your dock, and this guy damaged it tying his boat up to it without your consent. Or, it's your boat and you unintentionally damaged the guy's dock because it was that or lose your boat (and probably drown with it).
Balance of interests. Whose should get higher priority and why?
In debate it’s a logical fallacy called “begging the question” or “assuming the conclusion”. It goes like this: Human beings have rights. A fetus is a human being. Therefore, a fetus has rights.
That's neither question begging nor assuming the conclusion (you were, in fact, guilty of that in your own argument). What you said just now is a perfectly logical statement (backwards, but logical).
All A's are B. (All fetus' are a human being.)
All B's have C. (Human beings have rights.)
Therefore all A's have C. (All fetus' have rights.)
There is zero logical fallacy there. Categorical syllogism at its most basic.
What you really meant to do was question the validity of the major premise ("All fetus' are a human being.") And you can try to do that, but you'll fail in any and every attempt.
The most frustrating part of the anti-abortion argument is their unwillingness to make any attempt to establish it as true.
Well, like I said below - we don't actually HAVE to. YOU have to shore up your specious claim that "a fetus ISN'T a human being," despite all biological, genetic, and physiological evidence to the contrary - but the anti-abortion side doesn't have the problem of proving that it is. Because the anti-abortion argument doesn't ride on that premise. (And claiming that it does is Straw Man.)
They just assume the conclusion that they prefer and refuse to engage in the foundational premise.
Said the pot to the kettle. Except the pot is actually saying something quite different than the kettle without appreciating it.
Think about what you just said: inalienable rights can be taken away as long as the person can go somewhere else that allows them to retain their rights.
That's not what I said. That's you putting words in my mouth.
The "liberty" to intentionally kill your progeny isn't an inalienable right. I mean, you can claim that it is until you're blue in the face - but it isn't. Simple as that.
I hate to put it in so crude of terms, but you may as well claim you have a liberty - an inalienable right - to have sex with your dog. Well, OK, I mean technically I guess you could assert that liberty - but you'll never, ever, be able to pretend it's some kind of "inalienable right." Nor will you ever have a valid enough argument to convince anyone it's a laudable, defensible thing to do.
And if your society says, "Y'know, that's pretty friggin' awful, we should probably put you in jail forever for that." I mean, they're not forcibly stopping you from banging your dog, and they're even gracious enough to go let you do so just so long as it's NOT in their society that is like, "Dude, don't have sex with your dog."
There's no infringement there. Because there's no inalienable right there. You can go sex your dog to your hearts content - you'll just have to find a society more willing to accept that sort of thing. Which is what these four States are saying.
Forcing them to accept dog rape/committing abortion when they're vehemently against it is tyranny of the minority.
Authoritarianism and totalitarianism is the result of such disregard for rights.
And marxism and socialism and communism. Just saying.
The theocratic leanings of conservative states is disturbing
I don't know why, because there are no theocratic leanings in conservative states. That's very much a leftist state thing, what with their pagan cults of gender ideology, climate change, and race apology strongarming everyone into submission and compliance.
Conservative States aren't out there demanding, "Worship our God, or else!" They're saying, "Leave us alone to self-govern!" Unlike the Leftists states who are literally threatening retribution if you refuse to "say my pronouns."
(Also, because I can't resist and just for the lols: Matthew 7:3.)
The only reason, it seems, that you have a grudge against conservative states is because you don't like how they self-govern. Specifically, as it pertains here, on the subject of how they want to treat people who commit abortions.
I specifically reject the idea that rights are the government’s to give or take away. The democratic process does not justify government taking away someone’s rights.
Go ask the democratic process about your "right" to have sex with your dog. The "right" to abortion is no different. Wanting to commit abortion is no different (well, actually it's worse) than wanting to have sex with your dog. Claim it as a liberty interest if you want, just don't expect any decent human being or society of them to go along with it. Because, dude, wtf. Ain't no "inalienable right" to that kind of awfulness. And people have every right to democratically decide, "Dude, that's awful and wrong. Don't do that." And then empower their government to stop anyone who tries, or punish anyone who succeeds.
And you have the freedom to leave if you disagree.
The Founders knew what they were doing. It's a win/win setup.
Create a scenario for yourself that would result in you losing a fundamental right.
Why? We're talking about abortion (and dog sex). It's not a fundamental right.
An opinion like “a fetus is a human being” isn’t a justification for removing rights.
But an opinion like "a fetus isn't a human being" is?
And it justifies a far worse rights deprivation than the one you're talking about?
The idea that a politician who is anti-abortion has the support of their constituents on that specific issue, especially when public opinion surveys and voting results prove otherwise, is laughable.
He wouldn't be a politician if he didn't have the support of said constituents, would he. And if he assumed the role by trickery, said constituents would be demanding a recall, wouldn't they.
But these aren’t laws against immoral acts, except tangentially. They are laws against infringing on the rights of another.
Again, so what. Why is infrinting on the rights of another a problem in the first place?
I know you don't want to accept that laws - ALL laws - are based in morality.... but they are. Just, come to terms with it.
There has to be some sort of foundational reason, universal in scope, that justifies a law.
The term you're looking for, but desperately trying to avoid, is "morality."
While my social positions tend to be characterized as “liberal”, especially by the commenters here, I hope you can see that it is an internally consistent, well-considered worldview that leads to my opinions, not some unthinking knee-jerk mimeograph liberal talking point (I hope you’re old enough to know what a mimeograph is).
Well, I don't actually think the things you've said are internally consistent - and have pointed this fact out - but by no means would I regard you as the parroting useful idiots that regurgitate narrative on cue like so many here do.
You seem genuine in your position, having thought them out thoroughly and coming to a sincere belief that your conclusions are correct. The fact that you're (I hope) willing to consider the fact that you're not, as we flesh out these ideas, I respect that because it's the exact same thing I'm doing.
Happy to continue the conversation as long as you're willing.
to ensure Individual Liberty and Justice for all.
There isn't any Individual Liberty or Justice is FORCING a Woman to procreate. If you think her pregnancy deserves Individual Liberty then for F'Sakes give it its LIBERTY and set it FREE (free the fetus).
“ So if they pass, and this bothers you, just move out of Indiana, North Dakota, Oklahoma, and South Carolina. What's the big deal?”
Sure, passing intellectually unjustifiable laws that create draconian penalties for exercising your rights is perfectly fine if the person could, theoretically, escape the repressive state. That’s exactly how rights should be treated.
“ Abortion is a State's Rights issue now. I'm surprised "libertarians" have such criticism for that.”
Probably because you don’t understand that supporting liberty and opposing state coercion (especially based on arbitrary moral beliefs) is what libertarianism is about.
Liberty means someone, somewhere is going to make a decision you hate. And that’s a good thing. Forcing them to make your decision instead of theirs is a bad thing.
What "rights" are you referring to? Intentionally killing an in utero human being isn't a right. At least, not in those four states.
Or perhaps you think it's an inherent human right? Because that would be hilarious.
A fetus isn’t a human being. Until you can actually establish that as a true fact, as opposed to the minority opinion it is, anti-abortionists will always be begging the question. When the foundation of your argument is a logical fallacy, you can’t get much traction because it it a transparently illogical argument.
A fetus isn’t a human being.
What is it?
And, just out of curiosity, are you familiar with endangered birds? Condors, spotted owls, Amazonian parrots, etc? Assuming you think they have any value at all, would you support or oppose finding their nests and smashing their eggs. No good reason, just to be selfish and malicious.
If those eggs are on my property and causing a PERSONAL disturbance absolutely! I don't need to be State-Enslaved of duty to procreate endangered birds anymore than Women need to be State-Enslaved to procreate humans.
Just because I don't feel the need to be State-Enslaved doesn't make me selfish and malicious person. UR literally packing the lefts flag-ship.
And to counter/display the stupid in your question.
If a PMS cycle isn't a 'human being' what is it? /s
Maybe you'd like to FORCE the male part of the equation also against his will?
FORCED reproduction ... It's just a "State's Rights issue now"
Don't tell me. Tell PETA. Explain that to them the same way you explained it here.
"Intentionally killing"......
^THAT is the corruption/indoctrination by Pro-Life.
What laws is Pro-Life pitching to eliminate this supposed 'intentional killing'? Not a single law they're after is to criminalize an 'act' of 'intentional killing'.
The only laws getting drafted is to FORCE the Woman to procreate.
Do tell. Why can't they just make the destruction of fetus (the act) illegal and allow fetal ejection (Keep Woman's Individual Liberty)?
Point is; What Pro-Life says they're after doesn't represent what they are really after.
"Intentionally killing"......
^THAT is the corruption/indoctrination by Pro-Life.
You literally just said you'd smash the bird eggs. Intentionally. Killing what's inside. Without a hint of regret or remorse.
Put on the nose, Clown World.
So why aren't you (or are you?) lobbying for 'murder' charges on anyone who eats eggs for breakfast?
Talk about a clown world.
Don't you think all of them are selfish and maliciously killing just so they don't have to eat oatmeal for breakfast?
How far over in the straw will this straw-man have to go for you to find something to hold onto?
Maybe the 'Gun' tool just doesn't make 'babies' after all.
And most likely will end up just killing Women instead.
Defiant pregnant Women will get 'shot' to protect your imagination and where will your imaginary subject be then? Do you think you 'saved' it from being killed? NO.. You just killed two birds with one stone. 'Guns' don't make 'babies'.
I'll just keep saying it until it cancels the STUPID in Pro-Life indoctrination.
You're not 'saving' anything.
You're FORCING (by 'Gun' threat) reproduction.
So why aren't you (or are you?) lobbying for 'murder' charges on anyone who eats eggs for breakfast?
Because chickens aren't humans, nor are we risking the loss of a species. (And, for the record, I wouldn't lobby for murder charges if you smash condor eggs. I'd just say you're a pretty awful human being that should be shunned by everyone.)
And most likely will end up just killing Women instead.
How???
Defiant pregnant Women will get 'shot' to protect your imagination and where will your imaginary subject be then?
Nobody's talking about executing them, TJ. Don't know where you even came up with that.
You're FORCING (by 'Gun' threat) reproduction.
Nobody's holding them down and forcing them to be breedstock, TJ. Every single woman who had consensual sex CHOSE to reproduce. Every one. Even the ones who took countermeasures to try and prevent it. At the moment of conception, she reproduced. And it was entirely of her own volition.
- How? Reason already ran an article about a Woman who died because of Pro-Life legislation (after-effect).
- Nobody's talking about executing them...
Yes. You are. If a pregnant Woman defies the law-enforcement they get shot.
How do you think law gets enforce if law doesn't pack a 'Gun'?
Did you think all these Pro-Life laws were just suggestions?
- At the moment of conception, she reproduced.
Did the stork drop off the 'baby' at the moment of conception?
Yes; That's really how fantasy-land diluted Pro-Life's stance is.
I will not argue about fantasy-land creatures you make-up in your own head. Put this 'baby' in the REAL world or just accept you have no 'subject' to speak of.
Reason already ran an article about a Woman who died because of Pro-Life legislation (after-effect).
What article was that?
If a pregnant Woman defies the law-enforcement they get shot.
Nobody is going to shoot pregnant women. Except maybe Hamas. Where do you even come up with this nonsense?
How do you think law gets enforce if law doesn't pack a 'Gun'?
How many criminals get successfully captured every day without even having to draw a weapon? Why would you think women trying to commit abortion would have to be gunned down? Are you suspecting that they aim to use lethal force against the cops... from the procedure room where they're on their back trying to kill their progeny?
Did the stork drop off the 'baby' at the moment of conception?
If you'd like to think of it in such pedestrian terms sure. But at the moment of conception something - someone - new came into existence. Who is decidedly NOT the mother.
I will not argue about fantasy-land creatures you make-up in your own head.
I didn't make up humanity. They're a real thing, TJ.
You have entirely lost any logical credit and are just mumbling now.
And yes. People who defy the law get shot. You're are just pretending they'll eventually adhere to your "beliefs" before that end occurs.
And your imagination will have nothing 'saved' from the aftermath so you're not 'saving' anything/anybody but your own bigoted imagination.
You have entirely lost any logical credit and are just mumbling now.
Wrong. You're just in a corner and you can't get out - so instead of arguing anything you're just going to try and disparage me instead.
Ad hominem. You're done. Leave now.
No, your own argument trips you up. It was a states Rights isse and they ALREADY spoke on it.
" First, dictionaries of common and legal usage at the time of the Fourteenth Amendment’s adoption defined the terms “person” and “human being” interchangeably. Thus, the original public meaning of the term person included every member of the human race. There is no evidence that, in 1868, the term person included only born human beings. In fact, all the evidence leads to the contrary conclusion. According to Blackstone, there was no distinction between biological human life and legal personhood.
Second, centuries of common law precedent and state practice indicate that the unborn were considered legal persons. This historic context sheds light on the original public meaning of the term at the time of the Fourteenth Amendment’s adoption.
Third, statements by the authors of the Fourteenth Amendment show that its original expected application was to extend to every human being—especially the weakest and most marginalized. Once again, this suggests that the original public meaning at that time believed that the text of the Fourteenth Amendment applied to every human without exception."
In law you can't have an ex post facto law even by legistation. You don't return it to the states, YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT THE STATE NEVER LOST THAT RIGHT AND THEY HAVE SPOKEN
“ No, your own argument trips you up. It was a states Rights isse and they ALREADY spoke on it.”
What makes it a states rights issue? The fact that the individual right that used to be protected was stripped away and given to the state? That isn’t how rights work. They aren’t granted by the state, they are held naturally by humans.
“ First, …”
Wow. You are all-in on the statist argument. I guess in your world people don’t have rights that the government has to justify infringing on, they only have the rights that the State allows them to have. Man, you are on the wrong site for that belief system.
That isn’t how rights work. They aren’t granted by the state, they are held naturally by humans.
They are also willingly surrendered TO the State in return for a place in civilized society. In a state of nature, you're correct. In an ordered society, they're subordinated in order for the society to work harmoniously. And they're hopefully decided by the people of that society having expressed their own needs, wants, and willingness to compromise (as opposed to minority tyrant that strongarms his definition order upon them). That's why they're referred to as civil rights.
For example, the use of force. We give that up in this society. As a society, we have agreed to settle our differences by presenting them to a neutral and impartial arbiter held to an objective set of rules and procedures that are applied equally to all parties. As such, we have willingly authorized a social authority - police - to break us up when we start punching, stabbing, or shooting each other; and hold us criminally accountable for when we do so. And our participation IN society is our consent to this. We're free to leave at any time if we don't like it.
The odd position this puts your argument in is that it seems to want to have its cake and eat it too. All the benefit of civil society, but none of the consensual surrender of liberty in order to make it possible.
However, the fact that we surrender SOME rights doesn’t mean that the government can take ANY right, and certainly not for any reason. There has to be a rational basis for the ask when government seeks to infringe on rights.
That’s why there are no Amendments that are absolute, because there are specific (and valid) reasons that part of those rights should be surrendered. But the idea is that the least restrictive means for achieving a valid purpose has to be used. The government can’t say, for example, that because there is an exigent circumstance exception to the Fourth Amendment that means that officers can arbitrarily ignore the Fourth.
Abortion bans have no valid reason to infringe on the rights of pregnant women to make their own medical decisions about their pregnancy, nor their privacy, not their religion, nor their bodily autonomy. The most galling part is that anti-abortionists haven’t even tried to establish a valid reason. They say “life begins at conception” and want everyone to just ignore the fact that it isn’t a rational, let alone a valid, reason to infringe on a person’s rights.
I am a libertarian so I place more value on individual rights, direct more approbation at those who infringe on those rights, and am highly skeptical of the State when they take away those rights. To me, taking away rights requires a very, very high bar and blind faith in an unproven premise (whether that faith is religiously-based or not) doesn’t come close to that bar.
While the infringing of rights by a majority is bad, the infringing of rights by a small minority is much, much worse. 57% of Florida voters oppose a 6 week ban because they rightly find it to have no justification. But the State made sure that voice wouldn’t be heard. Pro-choice has twice as much support as anti-abortion (and, from an infringement of rights perspective, does not infringe upon anyone’s rights), while anti-abortion, after 59 years and literally billions of dollars spent in influence campaigns, can barely convince a third of people they’re right in a general way. When you get more specific, support plummets (only 10% of people believe life begins at conception).
You want to get on the right side (pun intended)? Start by establishing a convincing rationale that a pre-viable fetus is equivalent to a living, breathing person. Then convince enough people that your theory is true enough to justify infringing an individual’s rights. Then you can restrict the rights of actual humans.
But as long as you think that just declaring something that most people find absurd is sufficient to infringe on individual rights, you will be on the wrong side of freedom and liberty. You will be, unambiguously, an authoritarian using the power of the state to steal rights from individuals and force them to comply with your beliefs. That is the opposite of liberty and freedom.
However, the fact that we surrender SOME rights doesn’t mean that the government can take ANY right, and certainly not for any reason. There has to be a rational basis for the ask when government seeks to infringe on rights.
And there usually is. If there isn't, it gets tossed out by the Courts.
Part of the problem (the biggest part, I'd posit), however, is that the People chose to abdicate their responsibility to participate in the development of their society and the limitations of the State. They don't want to know how the sausage is made, they just want the sausage. Remember Nancy "we have to pass it to find out what's in it" Pelosi? That's because the People telegraphed a "Eh, do whatever you want," message TO the State. And they were quite eager to do so.
I mean, look at our society and tell me that's not true.
"We'd like you to not drive drunk."
"OK, that's reasonable."
"Also, we'd like you to not drive over the speed limit."
"I can see the purpose for that."
"Also, we want to you wear your seatbelt."
"A little intrustive, but I guess it's for a good cause."
After awhile, you start to tune it out. And then it's:
"Also, we want you to put fake eyelashes on your headlights."
"Fine whatever, stop talking already!"
"Also..."
"WHATEVER I SAID I DON'T CARE. JUST DO WHAT YOU'RE GOING TO DO, GAWD. "
They only care when it comes back to bite them in the butt.
We disengaged civically, and in doing so we were indifferent to it as we surrendered more liberty than we realized. And once lost, it's pretty hard to get back.
But the idea is that the least restrictive means for achieving a valid purpose has to be used.
That's for when they're messing with your fundamental rights. When they're not, we gave them - perhaps foolishly - a bit more latitude.
The government can’t say, for example, that because there is an exigent circumstance exception to the Fourth Amendment that means that officers can arbitrarily ignore the Fourth.
And they don't say that. They also say that the State can't cause the exigency.
Abortion bans have no valid reason to infringe on the rights of pregnant women to make their own medical decisions about their pregnancy
That'd be true if not for the fact that it's not just her pregnancy. Now a competing interest exists. You covered mom's interests - privacy, autonomy, religion, etc. Why didn't you mention dad's interests? Or maybe even grandma and grandpa's (on both sides). I have a good friend whose daughter got pregnant and later committed abortion, and I'll never forget the day he looked so sad as he said, "My daughter just killed my grandchild." Why is no consideration ever given to that sort of thing? Are his interests not valid? Is his feeling of loss and tragedy meaningless or, worse, laughable as its dismissed out of hand as irrelevant?
And especially why didn't you mention the progeny's interests?
The answer is because you don't want to consider competing interests at all. You arbitrarily declare that mom is the ONLY one who matters in any of this (because it's "her body, her choice"), and thus beg the question as you make your premises rely on your conclusion.
They say “life begins at conception” and want everyone to just ignore the fact that it isn’t a rational, let alone a valid, reason to infringe on a person’s rights.
Why not? I mean, you could say the same exact thing on the flipside. The pro-abortionists say "life doesn't begin at conception" and want everyone just ignore the fact that it isn’t a rational, let alone a valid, reason to infringe on a person’s rights.
That's just as galling. Surely you have to admit that much.
Ultimately, you're prioritizing liberty over life. But you're not making any kind of meaningful argument for doing so. This is precisely why I asked you if you truly understood why we have laws the other day, Nelson.
To me, taking away rights requires a very, very high bar and blind faith in an unproven premise (whether that faith is religiously-based or not) doesn’t come close to that bar.
Clearly it does if you support the legality of abortion. Because your premise is just as unproven as mine. This is illustrated precisely by the fact that you have to question beg it to establish your argument. You've taken it on blind faith that life doesn't begin at conception. You don't say when it begins or why/how, you just arbitrarily declare that it isn't at conception. Because you rely on the fallacy for your conclusion to hold. That gets you to soundness, but not anywhere near validity.
I - and by extension, anti-abortion - don't have that problem. Because I don't actually need to prove life begins at conception. All I have to establish is that giving the benefit of the doubt TO life supersedes any desired liberty interest. And I can do that six ways from Sunday (and I don't even need to invoke God/religion to do so).
Can you do the same vice versa? No offense, but I don't think you can (at least, not insofar as it applies to elective abortion). Suffice it to say, you'd be the first in all of human history to accomplish the feat.
Pro-choice has twice as much support as anti-abortion
I'm going to politely ask that you don't do that. That's manipulation of terms.
"Pro-choice" may (arguably) have twice as much support, but pro-abortion decidedly does not. You'll find plenty of people who say, "A woman should have the right to choose." You'll find few who say, "I am absolutely for killing the babies."
It's the REASON pro-choice (and to a lesser extent pro-life) try to couch what they're talking about in euphemism. Because they're avoiding the much harder discussion that is that competing life vs liberty interest.
I'm anti-abortion. I look at a teenage girl, raped by her father, pregnant, and am willing to take the hard stance that YES, SHE SHOULD HAVE TO CARRY THAT BABY TO TERM. "Pro-choice" wants to demonize me with that. Whatever, I don't care. But I find very few pro-borts who have the same integrity. Few will take the honest position, that IS the core definition of pro-abortion, "I know it's a baby, but I value the girl's liberty more than I do the baby's life."
This is, of course, why pro-borts go to such lengths to deny that it's life and to dehumanize it. They have to. Otherwise they are actual monsters, and they know it.
Start by establishing a convincing rationale that a pre-viable fetus is equivalent to a living, breathing person.
Again, I don't need to for my argument to hold water. The mere possiblity that it's human life automatically outweighs almost every liberty interest you can possibly think of. And I defy you to argue to the contrary.
But as long as you think that just declaring something that most people find absurd is sufficient to infringe on individual rights, you will be on the wrong side of freedom and liberty. You will be, unambiguously, an authoritarian using the power of the state to steal rights from individuals and force them to comply with your beliefs. That is the opposite of liberty and freedom.
I don't mean to repeat myself, but it's amazing to me that you can't see the inherent hypocrisy of this position, as you rely exclusively upon it (and its ad populum) in order to establish your own conclusion.
And it's actually worse for you. If I'm wrong, worst case scenario is I was a well-intentioned authoritarian who ignorant screwed people out of liberty. I can apologize for that, make amends even.
If you're wrong, you're a willful supporter of the greatest genocide the world has ever known. And there's no taking back that mistake.
Even if there were no other argument on the table, that one alone should be enough to convince anyone of the folly of pro-abortion.
Prescinding from the incendiary way you phrase this, it has been true since ROE that the abortion side is causing ALL this. No help for women coerced into abortion. No help for the woman needing to help to keep the baby she wants to keep. And simple talk of a right to kill human life but no right to keep it !!!
Only one organzation in my lifetime got this totally right : Feminists for Life. I criticize all sides for not seeing that you can't even be pro-abortion if you are not actively helping women who do not want to take the life of their baby but might IF YOU DO NOT HELP
“ No help for women coerced into abortion”
How is letting a woman decide for herself “coercing” anything?
“ No help for the woman needing to help to keep the baby she wants to keep.”
Uh, there’s a lot of help. Not least being a tax break that makes non-parents pay more taxes on the same income.
Why do you think it’s somehow my responsibility to pay for your child?
No matter how abortionists parse it, human life begins at conception and abortion is the killing of a developing child. Period. Any chance young women consider not being promiscuous whores and young men stop thinking with their dick?
No matter how Pro-Lifers want to parse it. Even a human life isn't entitled by Gov-Gun point to take organs from another human life.
You've got nothing but your own religious beliefs ("moral standards") you're trying to FORCE by Gov-Gun point onto everyone else.
Stop pretending this is a religious issue. It's no more religious than a law against theft.
Pregnancy is the process where an excretion becomes a human. When it becomes a separate human being with its own rights is an arbitrary standard that has no objective basis supporting any choice (conception, implantation, viability, birth, or whatever else).
However, that arbitrary standard is the difference between medical procedure and murder 1. Everything else is dancing around this one question.
Pro-Life's roots literally came from the Catholic Church.
If that doesn't meet significance of a 'religious issue' I don't know what does.
Never-mind the "faith" being everything and causing the very reason for the "dancing" around this one question. The question could so easily be settled by reality. If it has a life to save then SET it FREE and LET it have a life. Heaven-forbid 'reality' gets to determine that answer to the sacred-question instead of the "faith".
“ No matter how abortionists parse it, human life begins at conception and abortion is the killing of a developing child.”
That’s one opinion. The significantly minority opinion, but an opinion nonetheless.
“ Any chance young women consider not being promiscuous whores and young men stop thinking with their dick?”
Genetically and evolutionally, no. The drive to procreate is hardwired into human beings. Condescending self-righteousness is a sign that you don’t accept anyone else disagreeing with you. Totalitarianism is an ugly thing. You are clearly a hideous person inside.
That Nelson is one disgusting dude. I bet if we could see his past and peek in his conscience it would be sulphorouos. I have known people just like Nelson, there silos of vice with guitly consciences and they put on this altruistic, intellectual, detached persona so you won't suspect --- but if you have known pro-aborts like Nelson you are not fooled. HE knows it's evil. He knows for sure.
If a substanceless zealot like you is calling me disgusting, I’m doing something right.
I am just fine with my moral code, beliefs, and priorities. I feel no guilt because there is nothing to feel guilty about. I’m not the one trying to force people to act the way I want, you are. I’m not the one who can’t abide people having a different opinion than me, you are. I’m not the one who thinks that freedom, liberty, and individual rights are unimportant, you are.
Hell, you aren’t even honest enough to acknowledge that I’m pro- choice (my actual belief, due to my support for each person making their own decision)). You have to pretend I am in favor of people having abortions, which I am not. I merely think that I have no right to shove my opinion onto anyone else.
There is only one of us that should feel guilt or shame over their beliefs. Look in a mirror and you’ll see him.