The Problem With Trump's Birthright Citizenship Order
Former Rep. Justin Amash explains why President Donald Trump's interpretation of the Fourteenth Amendment is wrong.

There's a problem with President Donald Trump's birthright citizenship executive order, and it doesn't take much effort to see it.
The Fourteenth Amendment reads, in relevant part: "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
Trump's odd claim is that a child born in the United States without at least one parent who is a lawful permanent resident or U.S. citizen is not "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States.
But this is simply false.
Set aside that Trump's executive order would affect children whose parents are lawfully but not permanently here, such as those on student or work visas. Let's look at the "harder" case: the children of illegal immigrants.
It should be obvious that even individuals who are unlawfully present in the United States are "subject to the jurisdiction thereof." "Jurisdiction" is just the applicability of legal authority to them and the potential exercise of state power against them.
People who are unlawfully present in the country can, of course, be charged with crimes, arrested, and subjected to the same legal processes as almost anyone else in the United States. There is not a person who doubts this, least of all someone in the Trump administration.
I include the word "almost" before "anyone else" in the paragraph above because the phrase "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" does exclude certain children: mainly the children of foreign diplomats, who, in fact, are generally not subject to U.S. laws. They have immunity that may or may not be waived by their home country.
Some have suggested that one of the authors of the Fourteenth Amendment, Sen. Jacob Howard (R–Mich.), stated in a floor speech that he intended for the provision to exclude anyone born to foreigners, but a careful reading of the congressional transcript shows otherwise.
Howard said: "This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the government of the United States, but will include every other class of person."
The construction of this sentence reveals that he is describing just one class of persons. Each word or phrase is clarifying the one before it: "foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers." There is no "and." He is just describing foreign diplomats.
This is indicated not just by grammar but by logic. If Howard were indeed describing three groups, then his statement would be wildly redundant and tedious. These groups would not be distinct in any meaningful way. Why even bother mentioning foreign diplomats, a peculiarly specific class, if you've already said the provision excludes the children of all foreigners?
Others have suggested that because foreigners are subject to the jurisdiction of a foreign government they cannot be subject to the jurisdiction of the United States. Besides being plainly untrue—an American traveling overseas, for example, is subject both to the jurisdiction of the United States and the country in which they are traveling—the proponents of this position again run into a construction problem.
If the authors of the provision had intended to require "exclusive" jurisdiction, then it would not have been difficult for them to write "and subject to the exclusive jurisdiction thereof." They did not because that's not what they meant.
Now, you may not like the fact that the Constitution broadly grants birthright citizenship to the children of parents who are simply, perhaps even temporarily, present in the United States, but that is the law absent a constitutional amendment.
We are a nation founded on the rule of law. The president cannot amend the Constitution (or laws) via executive order. Any unilateral effort by a president to change the Constitution is void. Only an Article V amendment can change it.
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Yep, I completely parse this logic. Makes sense to me. It would take an incredible ruling by SCOTUS or a constitutional amendment to change the definition of birthright citizenship, not an XO.
I agree with you.
One would certainly hope so. The best possible reading, which I don't really ascribe to, is that Trump wants to force the issue at the SC but honestly this seems like pandering more than anything else. There is no real doubt that the SC would let something like this stand, but weirder things have happened.
Regardless of how one feels about immigration, legal or otherwise, one would hope we could agree that an executive order is simply not the proper avenue and this isn't something the President gets to decide by fiat.
Congress has caused this problem over the decades, and ultimately they are one's who would need to 'fix' it.
Congres is held to the same constitutional duty in drafting laws as the president is to executing them.
Saying Congress could change birthright citizenship when you declare an amendment means jus soli, shows you don't actually believe it means jus soli.
The President is, quite simply, not able to interpret constitutional amendments or what they mean. That is not within their purview.
If the requirements for citizenship are subject to executive order and/or interpretation this country is done for.
It's the Executives job to carry out the laws. The law is ambiguous in this instance so he's going by his opinion.
But the courts have resolved any ambiguity.
Uh no. No court has ever held that a child born to parents who were not legally residing in the United States is a citizen at birth under the 14th amendment. You, and the author of this piece, may not like it, but the issue in Wong Kim Ark was limited to whether the child of parents who had “a permanent domicile and residence in the United States” was a citizen at birth. Those were the agreed facts upon which the Court framed the issue and its holding. The entire concept of any broader reach of the 14th amendment has been manufactured administratively. It can be dismantled administratively.
"If the requirements for citizenship are subject to executive order and/or interpretation this country is done for."
I don't think the country is "done for." But it makes the country substantially worse, because it abandons the rule of law to rule by individual people.
It has *already* been shown to result in massive changes in matters extremely important to individual people's lives, on the simple change of one person in the presidency.
BYODB did not write that Congress should pass a law that violates the 14th Amendment. He(/she) wrote:
"Congress has caused this problem over the decades, and ultimately they are one's who would need to 'fix' it."
There are many ways for Congress to "fix" the "problem":
1) Do not let any women capable of giving birth into the country,
2) Deport them the minute it is revealed they are pregnant, or
3) Plenty of other ways.
Congress could even deport the women after they give birth, giving them the option to take their U.S. citizen with them, or to leave their U.S. citizen in the U.S.
Why? Make an argument. Show where Congress intended to grant jus soli in its entirety. Explain the following amendment granting native Americans citizenship when they were subject to us jurisdiction when not on native lands as well, including children born off native lands.
Explain why they authorr during debate stated he didn't mean partial jurisdiction but full jurisdiction.
The argument is contained within the above article that I agreed with.
Jus soli was the common law standard before the 14th Amendment was in place.
https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/amdt14-S1-1-1/ALDE_00000811/
I can't find a good reference for your claim about Native Americans born off of tribal lands in the 19th century. do you have a reference?
Explain the following amendment granting native Americans citizenship when they were subject to us jurisdiction when not on native lands as well, including children born off native lands.
Native American relations were via TREATY. They were viewed as citizens of their tribe - not individual citizens. SC cases (incl Dred Scot) and legislation (including the first Civil Rights Act passed after the 14th) explicitly required that Indians would have to give up their tribal citizenship in order to be eligible to be naturalized and become a citizen. They are very much treated the same as foreign 'diplomats' not individual 'migrants'.
If you want to make a case re illegals and their kids around the time of the 14th - then make it about Germans and Irish. They are individual migrants. Virtually all recent (post-1848). 100% were undocumented and had no permission from the federal government to reside in the US. None were US citizens because that did not exist then - only federal rules/eligiblity for naturalization. Most were not naturalized citizens. They were still aliens here in the US.
They were the ones who really got pissed about the Dred Scott decision.
Specifically - It is very clear, therefore, that no State can, by any act or law of its own, passed since the adoption of the Constitution, introduce a new member into the political community created by the Constitution of the United States. It cannot make him a member of this community by making him a member of its own. And for the same reason it cannot introduce any person, or description of persons, who were not intended to be embraced in this new political family, which the Constitution brought into existence, but were intended to be excluded from it. - the denial of standing to Dred Scott - and the REASON why the 14th amendment came into being to take a sledgehammer to that SC decision.
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
The person that must be subject to the jurisdiction of the US is the child born in the US, not the parents, so whether or not the parents are here legally or not probably does not make a difference.
However, I think this makes a different "hard case" - that of the tourist baby. If the parents fly in a month before birth, and leave with the child a month after birth, once the child leaves the US it certainly is not subject to the jurisdiction of the US. The US can't compel that child to do or refrain from doing anything, and has no ability or authority to oversee the welfare of the child. If, however, the child is born in the US and then permanently resides in the US (whether or not the parents are here legally or illegally), it would seem obvious that the child is subject to the jurisdiction of the US.
This reading seems to comport with the very end of the amendment - "and of the State wherein they reside" - which assumes that the person actually resides in a US state.
The US can't compel that child to do or refrain from doing anything - the child is not subject to US jurisdiction.
But that is exactly the same situation as when a US citizen goes to a foreign nation as, say, a tourist. We would not consider that tourist to have lost US citizenship because at the time when that tourist is abroad, the US government cannot immediately compel that tourist to do something.
Not really true. The child would not be a tourist in the foreign nation - the child would be a permanent resident there and, most often, a citizen due to the citizenship of the parents. There is no losing citizenship under this reading of the amendment because a child born in the US that is not a resident never becomes a citizen in the first place.
And the US certainly can compel US citizens living abroad to do things such as file tax returns and pay taxes, return to serve in the military if there's a draft, and not violate a number of laws that apply to US citizens abroad (anti-bribery, anti-sex tourist laws, not obtain an organ from an unwilling donor, etc.)
Well, I didn't say that the child *was* a tourist. Only that the two scenarios are comparable from my perspective.
And the US certainly can compel US citizens living abroad to do things such as file tax returns and pay taxes, return to serve in the military if there's a draft, and not violate a number of laws that apply to US citizens abroad (anti-bribery, anti-sex tourist laws, not obtain an organ from an unwilling donor, etc.)
So why would this not be true of the children of "birth tourism"?
If a baby is born in the US to foreigners here on a tourist visa and almost immediately removed to the parents' home country, and this person never makes a claim for US citizenship, it would be a little crazy for the US to demand this person file tax returns in the US. My guess is that this never happens.
Well if that person never makes a claim for US citizenship then the point is moot. But if that person does make a claim for US citizenship then that person would be subject to all the same rules as every other US citizen living abroad, no?
Whence this "immediately" compel? "You tourists can pay your taxes before the 15th of April!"
"However, I think this makes a different "hard case" - that of the tourist baby. If the parents fly in a month before birth, and leave with the child a month after birth, once the child leaves the US it certainly is not subject to the jurisdiction of the US."
Congress can address this, if it's some sort of big deal problem. Congress can simply pass a law that makes it illegal for tourists who are pregnant to come into the U.S. As part of the visa application, have a question about pregnancy. If they say "no", but later are found out to have lied, immediately deport them.
But let's look at simple numbers...we're a nation of 330 million people. Does it really matter if a few hundred people who are tourists give birth in the U.S. each year (and then take their U.S. citizens back to their home countries to live)?
Amash is a Marxist.
The construction of this sentence reveals that he is describing just one class of persons.
That's exactly what a Marxist proggie linguist would say.
This is indicated not just by grammar but by logic.
And that
We are a nation founded on the rule of law. The president cannot amend the Constitution (or laws) via executive order.
And he's a Biden supporting D proggie Marxist too.
Heh, heh, heh!
Yeah, he's a Marxist, and Donald Trump is a conservative. /s
I think it would take an amendment.
Where to begin?
The 14th Amendment citizenship clause was intended to overturn the egregious Dred Scott and the denial of full rights to black Americans subject to slavery. Important to keep the big picture in mind, as there is no evidence the 14th was intended to sanctify birthright citizenship. It was intended instead to address multi-generational black families denied the full protection of the Constitution.
There were no immigration laws in 1865. The core operative concept to become an American citizen was pledging allegiance to the country (after 2 years). If you were still loyal to the English crown or another sovereign, you were not considered American even if you born and/or lived on American soil. Hundreds of thousands of native born "Americans" left the country after the Revolutionary War and were never considered citizens benefitting from any rights. In fact, their lands were expropriated without compensation, etc.
Accordingly, Amash's argument fails on several fronts. Everyone, even diplomats, are subject in some manner to the "jurisdiction" of the United States when they are in its territory. The narrow constructionists like Amash effectively render the proviso meaningless, which is why the 19th century case law consistently clarified that allegiance and exclusivity were pre-requisites to claims to birthright citizenship under the 14th Amendment. The idea that a core Civil War Amendment jumped through hoops to protect a few dozen registered diplomats defies common sense. It is far more likely that Jacob Howard left out the term "and" merely as a shortened construction, and in fact, the amendment was never meant to cover aliens, invaders, tourists and others who owed "allegiance" to another sovereign while on US soil. Perhaps there is grounds to sweep in permanent residents or other non-citizens who enjoy the full protection of our laws, but certainly not illegal aliens, who (for example) do not enjoy 2nd Amendment or other rights of citizens.
Playing devils advocate here, but:
1. The word "subject" implies they are subjects of this country, not another country
2. Illegal immigrants cannot vote, serve on juries, be drafted, hold office, and a host of other things, so arguably they are not fully subject to our jurisdiction
3. If SCOTUS can creatively interpret the 14A to say it means that gay marriage should be legal (something that realistically none of the framers in 1866 would have supported), then it's FAR less of a stretch to claim the above provision of the 14th doesn't apply to illegal immigrants.
Illegal immigrants are here without the knowledge of the authorities, therefore how can they be subject to their jurisdiction? They aren’t following employment and tax law, much less immigration law. They are actively seeking to avoid the jurisdiction of the US
It breaks down when you consider full jurisdiction.
Illegals do not pay US taxes if they leave the US, or often times even here.
They are disqualified from federal programs.
They can not utilize US consulate in foreign countries.
They are banned from employers under ITAR/EXIM for fucks sake.
Etc, etc.
Does it say full jurisdiction?
It’s right there on the straw that he’s grasping at.
Obviously that's the rationale for "the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth".
I believe Bingham did say "complete jurisdiction" at one point.
"Illegal immigrants are here without the knowledge of the authorities, therefore how can they be subject to their jurisdiction?"
If children born in the U.S. to illegal immigrants are not subject to U.S. jurisdiction, whose jurisdiction to you think the children are subject to?
Current events are electric because the word “current” implies electricity.
Shocking idea™ .
I dislike the rationale that says in essence "Well if the plain meaning of the Constitution can be warped in ways I don't like, surely I can warp it in ways I do like." Let's not warp the plain meaning of the document at all, hmm?
And I say this as someone in favor of tighter immigration enforcement.
Democrats doing it first doesn’t make it ok?
You make the invalid assumption that it is plain language when ignoring the plain language of the drafters who defined jurisdiction, saying multiple times they didn't mean aliens or foreigners with allegiance to other countries.
The "plain language of the drafters" is not the law of the land. The Constitution is.
Jeebus
Neither I nor Justin Amash are 'ignoring' that plain language; in fact, this article directly addresses it.
Your dislike of this truth is irrelevant to its truth.
Ambassadors and diplomats, by definition, are foreigners. There’s literally no need to call them such, so I disagree with Amash’s opinion here.
1. We live in Republic, not a monarchy. I'm a citizen, not a subject.
2. Illegal immigrants are being rounded up and deported for crimes that they have (allegedly) committed as we speak. They are most certainly subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
3. The textualists on SCOTUS prefer to examine the plain text of the Constitution as it was understood at the time of the framing of that particular provision. That is the provision that was ratified, not a congressman's recorded opinion. They only reluctantly look at the legislative history only if the plain text of the Constitution is vague.
Another misunderstanding of jurisdiction.
1. We live in Republic, not a monarchy. I'm a citizen, not a subject.
That’s cute and all, but the government absolutely views you as a citizen-subject and has since we changed from “these united states” to “The United States”.
You have to bear in mind that "persons...subject to the jurisdiction thereof" refers to the CHILD, not the parents. Arguments starting from the status of the parents are on the wrong track—there is no question that illegal aliens are not subject to our jurisdiction. The question is whether we wish to consider the child subject to our jurisdiction or not. The answer to that does not seem obvious to me.
Good point.
It would also be helpful to understand the original intent of “subject to the jurisdiction” as meant in 1789.
One need look no further than the 2A “well regulated militia” clause, which progressives take to mean that the government can regulate away your right to possess a firearm on your person, when what “well regulated” meant on 1789 was “properly functioning” - the idea of state and federal bureaucracies (which didn’t exist) heaping modern “regulations” , i.e. rules, on gun owners and state militias was as foreign to them as an Internet search.
2. Illegal immigrants cannot vote, serve on juries, be drafted, hold office, and a host of other things, so arguably they are not fully subject to our jurisdiction
That simply means they are not citizens. Duh.
Born outside the US - they must be naturalized to become citizens
Born in the US - they are a natural-born citizen of the US.
"1. The word "subject" implies they are subjects of this country, not another country"
No, in this sentence "subject to the jurisdiction" means that the laws of the United States are applicable to them. That's as opposed to the children of diplomats, who have immunity, unless their countries choose to allow them to be prosecuted and incarcerated in the U.S.
Yup. See my comments above. The Amash construction effectively renders the term "jurisdiction" meaningless, ignores the history of American citizenship and purpose of the 14th Amendment, and relies entirely off a missing "and" that could easily have been left off in conversant language. Even diplomats have some obligation to follow police powers, etc.
Justin,
Go back and read the Congressional record from when the amendment was brought to the floor. It was intended to solve the problem caused by the 13th amendment, which freed the slaves and left them without citizenship. It was specifically mentioned that it would not have an effect for Indians or foreign nationals, because those parties were "not subject to the jurisdiction thereof".
I don't know how it could be any clearer. Unless I misunderstand, the Congressional record is part of the review when Constitutional issues are interpreted by the courts.
All the evidence is against those claiming the language is clear and unambiguous. It is amazing to watch them make the claim that there intention is clear when it is opposite of the drafters.
"It was specifically mentioned that it would not have an effect for Indians or foreign nationals, because those parties were 'not subject to the jurisdiction thereof'".
OK, at that time, it would not have an effect for Indians. Do you think the same is true today for "Indians" (Native Americans, Indigenous Peoples)? That is, are any such people not "subject to the jurisdiction" of the U.S. today?
Given tribal lands are sovereign, yeah.
Do you think the same is true today for "Indians" (Native Americans, Indigenous Peoples)? That is, are any such people not "subject to the jurisdiction" of the U.S. today?
It would be if Congress had not later taken action to apply the Naturalization Clause to Indians, which is within its Constitutional powers.
https://americanmind.org/salvo/birthright-citizenship-game-on/
This issue has always been agencies posing their own interpretations without challenge. That is what the EO corrects.
If Wong Kim Ark was correctly decided, why was the Indian Citizenship Act of 1924 needed 26 years later?
In 1924, nobody debated the fact that native Americans were definitely not citizens until the legislation passed. This despite being born in the country and here legally.
It's not enough to reason about the meaning of "subject to the jurisdiction thereof" in 2025. We need to understand the meaning of the 14th Amendment as it was understood when written.
A great article that explains that. Apparently, Wong was decided as it was not only because Wong was born on US soil, but also because his parents were legal immigrants to the US, a condition which is not operative in the case of illegal immigrants.
https://thefederalist.com/2025/01/24/trump-is-right-about-birthright-citizenship/
Two more.
https://mises.org/power-market/birthright-citizenship-isnt-real
https://mailchi.mp/tomwoods/birthright?e=503752da56
Which makes the argument of birthright citizenship trolls more obviously wrong. The logic and practicality of it doesn't make sense to begin with.
The history of Indian citizenship etc... is a long sordid one. Many of the tribes were in fact treated as independent sovereign entities for much of America' s early history. That is why there was so many treaties with them. America didn't make treaties with random Italians in a burrough in NYC or hood in Chicago. But they did with specific Indian nations.
Why do you think that is the case?
So they were treated as foreign nations and their children were not considered citizens when born off reservations.
Work it out slowly not a lawyer.
"So they were treated as foreign nations and their children were not considered citizens when born off reservations."
Yes, they were not considered citizens because they were not subject to the jurisdiction of the United States.
That is not the case of illegal aliens in the U.S. in 2025. Illegal aliens are not like diplomats or 19th century "Indians". Illegal aliens in the U.S. are not subject to the laws of the country they fled. They cannot be protected from punishment under U.S. laws by governments of the countries they've fled.
That’s a giant twist in logic.
So they cannot flee to the consulate of their home country? Bullshit.
Illegal aliens in the U.S. are not subject to the laws of the country they fled. They cannot be protected from punishment under U.S. laws by governments of the countries they've fled.
Those are both logically ridiculous claims presented with zero evidence. You are not arguing in good faith.
I don't see how the Ark case is relevant at all. And the 14th was explicitly passed to guarantee citizenship to the freed slaves who were born on US soil and had never lived under the jurisdiction of any other country. But Amash believes that the authors decided to include citizenship to the children of anybody who shows up even though it had nothing to do with the purpose of the amendment. I don't know what the final answer will be but I doubt that this article will convince anybody either way.
You appear to be confusing the original intent of the Fourteenth Amendment and its original meaning.
The amendment was intended to protect the rights of freed blacks, but its meaning protects the rights of all, including whites.
Yes, and children born in the U.S. to illegal aliens haven't lived under the jurisdiction of any other country.
The 14th Amendment as currently interpreted is very simple. If a child is born in the U.S., and is not the child of a diplomat, that child is eligible for U.S. citizenship.
The 14th Amendment as proposed by Donald Trump's E.O. is tremendously complicated. For example, what if one parent is here illegally, and the other a U.S. citizen? What if both parents are here illegally, but one or both manage to fool people so that their child is granted U.S. citizenship? Suppose that child grows to adulthood, and then it is found that the citizenship was granted based on a lie? That child who has grown to adulthood has certainly never known anything but the jurisdiction of the U.S.
Because Indians were considered citizens of their tribe - with relations between that tribe and the US by treaty. Until 1924, they were specifically excluded from both naturalization and citizenship unless they specifically gave up their tribal citizenship and thus moved from treaty provisions to more general 'jurisdiction'.
Well Amash is certainly entitled to his opinion which is the same opinion we've seen from numerous pundits over the last couple days. There are of course smart people who disagree and the fact is this question has never been fully resolved. Nobody including Trump ever believed that an EO would resolve the matter. The Supremes will ultimately make the call. I'm mostly ambivalent and I think congress has the authority to address this issue at least at the margins should they choose to regardless of the court.
You can tell when one side doesn't have the favor of evidence when they refuse to acknowledge the temporal evidence one side has given. They don't prove their arguments to be true, the just know they are true.
Despite multiple laws and recorded statements, they all falsely claim jurisdiction simply means what it means and not what it was intended to mean at the time.
They all ignore that immigrants that have an allegiance to other countries are not under full jurisdiction, as well as continued jurisdiction from countries they are actual citizens of.
Amash makes the same weakly framed argument while ignoring the other argument completely. He is right because he assumes his incorrect definition is right. Why he doesn't address the evidence. He ignores other laws like the 1866 civil rights act, the following amendment granting citizenship to native Americans, the deportation of all Mexican after the 1929 crash including children born here. He simply pretends the evidence doesn't exist.
We do acknowledge the temporal evidence. We just disagree with what it means in this context.
We've told you over and over again:
1. Senator Howard's statements are not the law of the land, the Constitution is. Whatever Senator Howard may have thought of the original meaning of 14th Amendment, it is of much lesser weight than the fucking words of the Amendment itself.
2. The 1866 Civil Rights Act was passed by Congress *before* the 14th Amendment was passed by Congress. If that same Congress had wanted the 14th Amendment language to copy the 1866 Civil Rights Act language, why didn't they do that? Why did they choose a different set of words? Answer: because they wanted the 14th Amendment to have different meaning compared to the 1866 Civil Rights Act.
3. At the time, Native Americans were not considered subject to the jurisdiction of the US government, they were considered subject to the jurisdiction of their own tribes. A law had to be passed in the 1920's to grant them citizenship.
4. This amendment was the very first one that dealt with the concept of citizenship in a formal matter. Before that time, the common law tradition was birthright citizenship and that was what was practiced everywhere in the US. Furthermore, the Dred Scott decision said that even freed slaves could not be citizens. This amendment can be viewed as formalizing what was already practiced and applying it to everyone (with the noted few exceptions of diplomats, Native Americans, etc.) including freed slaves, who would not have been citizens otherwise.
"1. Senator Howard's statements are not the law of the land, the Constitution is. Whatever Senator Howard may have thought of the original meaning of 14th Amendment, it is of much lesser weight than the fucking words of the Amendment itself."
Does that mean that the context and/or spirit of said law is to be ignored?
No, but it is just one Senator's opinion, not the same as the full weight of the Constitution.
"Does that mean that the context and/or spirit of said law is to be ignored?"
If illegal aliens giving birth to children, who are then considered U.S. citizens, is such a big problem, then:
1) Make sure no illegal aliens that can give birth to children get into the U.S., or
2) Deport them before they give birth, or
3) Deport them after they give birth, and give them the choice of leaving the U.S. citizens in the U.S., or
4) Change the 14th Amendment.
In the last 100 years, has there been *any* case of an illegal alien giving birth to a child in the U.S., and the U.S. government claiming that the child was not a U.S. citizen?
"Alright, we can intern the Issei and the Sansei, but not the Nisei." - Justin "Champion of Immigration and the 14A" Amash
"They all ignore that immigrants that have an allegiance to other countries are not under full jurisdiction, as well as continued jurisdiction from countries they are actual citizens of."
It's ridiculous to claim that immigrants have an allegiance to the countries they are fleeing (often because the governments of those countries are trying to kill them).
And the 14th Amendment says nothing about "allegiance" of the parents. And the 14th Amendment certainly does not say anything about the "allegiance" of the newborn child!
Does the fact that there were no restrictive immigration laws at all, before the 14th amendment have any baring on issue? Without any immigration law, How was a person considered a citizen? As the 14th amendment was specifically written around the situation of slavery, and no laws existed to grant or deny entry into the country, can the amendment be viewed to grant citizenship to anyone outside of slaves?
Seems like a lot of things need to be defined before a determination can be made.
Without any immigration law, How was a person considered a citizen?
common law, which was jus soli
If citizenship was determined by "jus soli" then what was the whole point of adding "All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside." Why was it necessary at all in order to grant, or protect from the denial of, citizenship to the children of slaves?
Nevermind, I guess it answers itself.
The lack of immigration laws when 14A was ratified is a very strong argument that 14A protects the children of all immigrants. It applied to all immigrants back then, so it needs to apply to all immigrants now.
"The lack of immigration laws when 14A was ratified is a very strong argument that 14A protects the children of all immigrants. It applied to all immigrants back then, so it needs to apply to all immigrants now."
Yes, it's interesting that opponents of birthright citizenship maintain the 180 degree opposite to that position.
Justin Amash
[Spews beverage from nose] Phbbbt! Can we get Jeff Flake's take too? How about Jared Polis'? Marco Rubio's take? Melania's?
FFS at least Chase Oliver is gay. Justin somehow managed to get himself bounced out of a seat as a Republican in a State that subsequently swung for Trump. I guess his experience makes him more relevant than Sullum or Harrigan or Boehm but his stance could not be more self-evidently out of touch.
I'm glad he's out of office and no longer carries any weight as a "libertarian" elected official.
"...but his stance could not be more self-evidently out of touch."
Yeah, the mob wants to burn witches, but Justin Amash doesn't want to go along. Doesn't he know the Rule of Law is so 20th century?
I am convinced that an amendment will be needed to fix this problem, but it IS an actual problem.
The amendment reads, "all persons born or naturalized in the United States, AND subject to the jurisdiction thereof" ... are citizens. The "AND" clause marks a conditional. It is right there in the original text.
If the original authors had wanted the amendment to be understood as Rep. Amash proposes, they could have written "All persons born or naturalized in the United States ARE subject to the jurisdiction thereof" ... and therefore, citizens.
But, they didn't.
Which leaves the question of how to understand the CONDITIONAL requirement of "being under the jurisdiction of". There's no unequivocal way to define what this means. It is ambiguous because it isn't defined in the amendment itself.
Which means it has to be resolved either the courts, or by Article 5 amendment.
Foreign diplomats. Read the article dummy.
Yes, exactly. Foreign diplomats.
(And Indians, as they legally stood at the time of the 14th Amendment.)
It's very simple. And there IS a way to unequivocally define "subject to the jurisdiction thereof". It's exactly the way that phrase *has* been defined for the last ~100 years.
According to Amash's logic, if I have it right - If an American tourist was executed in a country where blasphemy was punishable by death, and the very next day his wife gave birth to a child there, then that child has claim to birthright citizenship, since the family was subject to the "jurisdiction" of that land (1A wouldn't override their sovereignty).
Despite the fact that the father was executed for a capital offense, and no one in his family swore allegiance to the nation or pass any sort of requirement of protocol that would have allowed them to be citizens or "subjects"?
If Palestine voted to be our 51 state and our government approved it, the 14th amendment would allow children born to their people to be American citizens. Because Palestine would be under American "jurisdiction". This is pretty much what happened to freed slaves. They were brought here against their will, and violated every constitutional rights granted to even noncitizens, so the only remedy was to make them citizens, subjects to our rule. So they could never be drafted into the African Army or subjected to different state laws that violate federal standard.
We grant citizenship to people WE grant citizenship to. It's not a "new" right, but rights given to people rendered to "new Americans". It seems simple to me. Of course, we'll see what the SC says about it.
You hypothetical is bizarre, and not relevant to Justin Amash's opinion piece. Justin Amash's opinion piece is about *U.S. citizenship*. And it's particularly about U.S. citizenship for people *born in the U.S.*
So I don't see how bizarre hypotheticals about children born outside the U.S. to U.S. citizens (one parent who was apparently recently executed) has anything to do with Justin Amash's article.
'It should be obvious that even individuals who are unlawfully present in the United States are "subject to the jurisdiction thereof."'
Uh, no, it is not obvious. When illegal aliens live deliberately deceptive lives and attempt to avoid law enforcement are they are at least questionably of jurisdiction status. And when they declare sanctuary status, abetted by others or not, they are declining jurisdiction, right?
If illegal immigrants weren't "subject to the jurisdiction" of US laws, then why would they try to hide from law enforcement? US laws have no power over them!
The author of this article called the primary author of the 14th amendment a liar.
It's not territorial jurisdiction Amash it's personal. Even if you're outside the country the government still has authority over you. That jurisdiction. Tourists and illegals are still under the authority of their home country and so are their kids.
It's ANY jurisdiction. The phrase is "subject to the jurisdiction thereof". Without qualification modifying the word "jurisdiction".
I understand that there are a lot of conservative lawyers who think that "jurisdiction" actually means something like "allegiance" or "loyalty" instead. But the authors didn't use the word "allegiance" nor the word "loyalty", they used "jurisdiction".
a 'subject' of/to the jurisdiction thereof.
NOT subjected to the jurisdiction thereof.
UR purposely trying to deceive and manipulate. Just like this article does.
Course it's plain as day. Why would the phrase even be there if it didn't have a purpose?
And if there is any doubt beyond that the CRA of 1866 clears it up perfectly. And now with this article the very authors speech clearing it up.
"It's ANY jurisdiction."
So since you're in the jurisdiction of..... some country somewhere, your new born child has claim to birthright citizenship?
Here's the full section 1 of the 14th amendment, not just the first line.
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
As you can see, the emphasis was to prevent individual states from enforcing their own rules like Jim Crow (which the south did, sadly) on the descendants of slaves, who was now recognized as citizens and thus under OUR JURISDICTION.
You're apparently defining "jurisdiction" as being under any kind of law. Because foreigners are subject to our laws against jaywalking and smoking indoors, they're supposedly under our jurisdiction. Jurisdiction usually implies exclusive domain. Like states unable to prosecute federal crimes. We have no jurisdiction over foreign nationals. If Britain declared war on Russian, we have to return non citizen Brits in America so they can be drafted. We can grant them asylum or cancel extradition agreement, but that opens up a pandora's box.
Set aside that Trump's executive order would affect children whose parents are lawfully but not permanently here
Who cares. Just because I Airbnb in your house for weekend and have a baby while I'm there doesn't mean I now have a right to your roof, fixtures, appliances, and comforts.
It's not their house. Nor is it their baby's. Period.
Let's look at the "harder" case: the children of illegal immigrants.
That's the easy case. If you are in this country illegally and have children while you're here (
wrongfully taking advantage ofoutright stealing America's social services and healthcare facilities to do so, I might add), the answer is that we kick both parents out - and they, as well as any blood relations to them - are immediately and permanently barred from applying for either a temporary visa or for citizenship for the rest of their lives. They play this game with America, then their entire family pays the price for it for life. This will both discourage the practice and give incentive for decent family members with bad apples to talk them out of trying to take advantage of America.If they want to take the kid, fine. If not, then he gets put up for adoption to an American couple (but no gays, because that's f'd up and cruel to a child), and any adoptive parents get a fast-track for him under the Child Citizenship Act. Any child who has been applied for by his adoptive parents gets to enjoy de facto citizenship until the paperwork is processed, and the adoptive parents get to enjoy the tax incentives (but no welfare).
That's a VERY fair compromise on this subject.
Now, you may not like the fact that the Constitution broadly grants birthright citizenship to the children of parents who are simply, perhaps even temporarily, present in the United States, but that is the law absent a constitutional amendment.
And that point is all well and good, and we should absolutely have that discussion at a national level. But don't just say, "And that's that, so suck eggs Trump." Instead, come up with ideas like the above to address the problem instead of dismissing it out of hand.
"Instead, come up with ideas like the above to address the problem instead of dismissing it out of hand."
The major problem here is the President of the United States violating his oath of office within hours of taking that oath.
.....uh, how?
I mean, I wouldn't put it past him - this is Trump we're talking about - but.... uh, how?
Even though reasonable people can disagree about what “subject to the jurisdiction thereof” means, it’s obvious to Mark that it’s unconstitutional to view it to mean that illegal immigrants (being subject to a foreign power) can’t just cross the border as the kid is crowning and boom presto they’re American.
>It should be obvious that even individuals who are unlawfully present in the United States are "subject to the jurisdiction thereof." "Jurisdiction" is just the applicability of legal authority to them and the potential exercise of state power against them.
I would say that at least for the last 4 years they haven't been subject to the jurisdiction of the US. They've been basically allowed to run around and do what they want.
The US choosing not to exercise its jurisdiction in certain cases doesn't mean that jurisdiction ceases to exist.
"subjected to" versus "a subject of".
Even the very word of 'jurisdiction' doesn't imply 'subjected' to your laws.
I'm not a 'subject' of your family just because I was subjected to your family holiday.
That's hilarious...
"authors of the Fourteenth Amendment, Sen. Jacob Howard (R–Mich.), stated in a floor speech, 'This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners'"
Justin Amash, "but a careful reading of the congressional transcript shows otherwise."
How's that? By Careful Deception and Manipulation?
What a joke. This article practically makes the Case that Foreigners aren't included yet pretends otherwise.
In 1868, the only real foreigners or aliens were the diplomats. Everyone else arriving from abroad was essentially admitted as a lawful permanent resident and put on the path to naturalization immediately. So the Senator's somewhat studdering phrases do make sense.
"This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners'"
Justin Amash, "but a careful reading of the congressional transcript shows otherwise."
How's that? By Careful Deception and Manipulation?
No, by logic. A person at birth has no jurisdiction applicable to him/her, unless he/she is the child of a diplomat.
The senator didn't say, "persons in the United States who are *born to* foreigners." The senator was talking about the child, not the parents.
LOL... Any take. Any take what-so-ever to pretend there is no 'and' phrase in the 14A.
How else would one be 'born' foreign if it isn't from foreigners?
A foreign species (non-human)?
Only aliens can be considered 'born' foreign?
Those trying to keep birthright citizenship arguments are so ridiculous its downright laughable entertainment.
Trump's birthright Executive Order is defective on its face, and I predict even if it is allowed to stand, it will be of little force or effect.
Why? Because this is the main directive of the Executive Order:
"It is the policy of the United States that no department or agency of the United States government shall issue documents recognizing United States citizenship, or accept documents issued by State, local, or other governments or authorities purporting to recognize United States citizenship ..."
The thing is, there aren't many official documents that denote U.S. citizenship of the individual. Local and state birth certificates do not. Social Security Cards and Numbers do not. Work authorization confirmation does not. Driver licenses and state and local ID's do not. Medicaid cards and other welfare benefit cards like food stamps do not. Mostly there are just fields within records about citizenship, but that isn't a document.
So really, it's only issuance of U.S. Passports that maybe could be denied as a matter of administrative discretion under this Executive Order. Even so, the child would still be a U.S. citizen. In most cases, a birth certificate is accepted by state and federal agencies as proof of citizenship, even though it doesn't say the person is a U.S. citizen, and I don't expect this Executive Order would change that at all.
In conclusion, this Executive Order is much ado about nothing. There will be new questions on U.S. passport applications about the citizenship or immigration status of the parents at the time of the child's birth, and some wrongfully denied passports under the EO that will be challenged, but in most other cases it will change nothing.
"In conclusion, this Executive Order is much ado about nothing."
It's not "much ado about nothing" to attempt to violate the rule of law, and overthrow 100+ years of accepted practice about who or who is not a citizen.
Yes, of course, but what I'm saying is it's not really going to accomplish anything. It doesn't actually end birthright citizenship, the same as Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation did not actually end slavery in the United States (rather it was a confiscation of property, the slaves, within the states that had seceded and were no longer part of the United States).
Department of State may find it difficult to adjudicate new child U.S. Passports under this Executive Order, as they will be prohibited from issuing the document without satisfactory proof of the parent's citizenship or immigration status at the time of the child's birth. Denial of a passport on such grounds would then raise claims of violating equal protection, so that's how I think the EO's effect will ultimately be annulled by the courts.
Courts might well decide that exclusivity of jurisdiction is relevant. However, Trump might well decide to ask Congress to resort to its authority under Article 5 of 14A by simply passing a law clearly defining the jurisdiction to exclude the children born to parents with no legal status.
The clear defect with current policy is that deported parents face the horrific prospect of being forced to choose to leave their child behind in the USA.
The clear, but lesser, defect with the revised definition of jurisdiction is that many of these children in the future could face the near-impossible burden of proving their parents' citizenship in order to prove their own citizenship.
Why would illegals be forced to leave their children behind? They can go back to the homeland with mom and dad and come back when they grow up. Nothing horrific about it.
Congress clearly defining it would put the whole thing to rest, but I don’t think either side will like that very much.
I suppose Congress could end birthright citizenship by waiving jurisdiction over foreign nationals.
You mean granting them all the immunity usually enjoyed by diplomats? That is what the President has indirectly tried to do here. That makes things 1000x worse than the status quo, because now you've basically given undocumented immigrants a license to commit crimes without facing any legal penalties. Much like Trump himself.
"You mean granting them all the immunity usually enjoyed by diplomats? That is what the President has indirectly tried to do here. That makes things 1000x worse than the status quo, because now you've basically given undocumented immigrants a license to commit crimes without facing any legal penalties."
Yes, the proponents of Donald Trump's Executive Order seem to totally ignore the fact that if the United States is declaring it has no jurisdiction over children born to illegal aliens, then those children essentially have immunity from U.S. laws.
Such a dumb argument Justin.
> It should be obvious that even individuals who are unlawfully present in the United States are "subject to the jurisdiction thereof." "Jurisdiction" is just the applicability of legal authority to them and the potential exercise of state power against them.
If that is the case, that would be covered by the word "born" and makes this statement duplicative. It's not, it's there for a reason. Thy are only temporarily subject by being illegally here, not permanently subject by being here via authorization (citizen or permanent resident alien).
What actually is obvious is you need to be born here and be here legally. So birthright citizenship for all is prohibited by the Constitution. Sorry, you lose!
"If that is the case, that would be covered by the word "born" and makes this statement duplicative."
No, it doesn't. Didn't you read the article? Children of diplomats are born in the U.S., but are not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S.
Just going to leave this right here for all the Marxistarians:
https://i.imgur.com/ij5SWco.png
No one seems to have been refusing to control the border at any time in the last two hundred years or more. Please stop confusing illegal immigration with border control - you're not fooling anyone. Millions of people cross our borders both ways every year, some of them legally and some of them without official permission. The threat to American liberty does not come from illegal aliens - it comes from our own elected officials elected by multi-generational Americans. This is about immigration policy and nothing else. If our government allowed anyone who wanted to visit here to enter with a simple half-hour criminal background check, the number of people crossing without permission at unofficial crossing points would almost totally disappear and everyone here knows it! There would be no human safety and health crisis at the border; there would be no housing crisis or overwhelmed detention centers or children separated from their families. Go peddle this crap somewhere else.
I just think it's hilarious how the "open borders" crowd is now suddenly, predictably, hypocritically, "but our borders define our citizenship!"
The pro-illegals bloc is so Clown World, it's embarrassing.
some of them legally and some of them without official permission.
What are the latter ones called?
The threat to American liberty does not come from illegal aliens
American liberty has more than one threat.
If our government allowed anyone who wanted to visit here to enter
But they don't want to visit here. They want to stay here. And commit crime. And leech off of entitlements. And contribute absolutely nothing to American society. If none of that was true, we'd see huge amounts of legal immigration.
We don't see that. We see huge amounts of illegal immigration.
If our government allowed anyone who wanted to visit here to enter with a simple half-hour criminal background check, the number of people crossing without permission at unofficial crossing points would almost totally disappear and everyone here knows it!
If the government allowed anyone who shoplifted to just go about their business unchecked, shoplifting would totally disappear! Just like it did in California! Oh wait.
There would be no human safety and health crisis at the border
That health and human safety crisis is 100% avoidable. So, cry me a river for them try and cross and then drown in.
Justin Amash can go grab a beer with Adam Kinzinger. And they can stay out of public policy for the rest of forever.
"The President is simply wrong." Irrelevant and has been for quite a while now. The President can issue any silly or dangerous Executive Order that he wants to. It has only been recently that a few exceptional and very rare Judges were willing to issue restraining orders on the President, the FBI or the DoJ, just as it has only been recently that Prosecutors have been willing to charge police officers with murder over the protests of the Brotherhood of Police Officers and their captive City Fathers. It takes months or even years to get the wheels of justice to start rolling and getting the Supreme Court to rule against government power and authority in controversial cases and stop legislating from the bench has taken literally decades.
This is demented: https://www.msn.com/en-in/autos/news/why-pregnant-indian-women-in-america-want-c-section-for-their-babies-explained/ar-AA1xJou2
However, it does make it crystal clear that the whole goal of these aliens is to anchor babies here for their own ends, doesn't it.
Just park ICE vehicles in the parking lots of all hospitals, Emergency Rooms and birthing centers already!
If the amendment is solid jus solis, then why do children born abroad to American citizens get citizenship? When Americans have children overseas, they fill out the Consular Report of Birth and then they received a certificate that identifies their child as a citizen, based on the parents' citizenship.
If that is the case for Americans, it must be the case for foreigners.